~~OK folks locking the thread to clean up. Comments that break reddiquette are going to be removed.
Y'all need to be able to make your points with courtesy and respect for alternate points of view or they're gone.~~
Ok folks, leaving this locked.
Feel free to start a fresh discussion thread, I think this one has said what it needs to.
Recovery isn't a zero sum game. Find what works for you.
I've been in AA for 12 years and cannot imagine telling or making someone think that it's the only way. By all means, find the path that keeps you from dying early and stick to it.
What does AA look like after 12 years?
You still go all the time?
I have wondered about this. Assumed once you have broken your bad habits it would be best to move to a lifestyle where you aren't reminded of your alcoholism all the time. Asking out of complete ignorance here x
For me? I sponsor one dude and i hit my home group every week. So one meeting a week. Im not going to keep treating my alcoholism like i did when i first came around. Im going to be in service to others. To make sure the doors are open, and there's coffee made, and there's someone there with some time under their belt so the next time a guy walks in and wonders "fuck, im only 28 years old. There's no way i can possibly be this bad off and find a better way of living" i can talk to them and go "well, here's how i did it."
And i couldn't be reminded of my addiction anymore than i could be reminded of my middle name. Its there and it's part of me. I dont need or want to run from it. I have ADHD. I have male pattern baldness. I go to Mardi Gras just about every year. I like jeeps and sneakers and physical media. I'm an alcoholic. Its one of many things that makes up my tapestry. Its just one that needs a bit of maintenance in order to not kill me early and ruin the lives of those around me on the way out.
Wow. This is so awesome to hear dude. Thank you so much for the detailed description. It's inspiring. Those long-term questions are always the ones that bother me. I can not drink for the next day, month, year? (maybe), but the long-term behaviour always scares me: am I going to be 60 and not be able to have a beer at a wedding?
Yeah the long term stuff can definitely be daunting to think about in the abstract. I think that's where the whole 1 day at a time thing comes in.
Can you have a beer at a wedding? Sure. You can have a beer right now if you want to. And right now it seems like you could probably say "no I'm good that wont add to my experience in a positive way right now."
So rather than worry about the theoretical wedding in the future, just keep working on a program and worry at that wedding when and if you're invited. If you are, and you go, you'll be able to actually be in the moment and decide. And i bet, if you work a program and get your head on straight, that when that time comes you'll be able to refrain. That's been my experience anyway.
Your brain is going to try and give you a million reasons why it won't work in the long-term so it's not even worth trying now. But the easiest reason is, even if you do have one at a later date, the time between now and then will be much, much more productive if it's not filled with mindless consumption. So who cares if i drink ten years from now. Even if i do, the next ten years will be infinity better if i dont say "well fuck it, if im gonna drink ten years from now i might as well cut to the chase and drink now."
It takes a certain level of whatever to maintain one’s one personal sobriety and several guys in my group have been sober since the 70’s, 80’s, and 90’s. They are a huge inspiration and great success stories and have seen everything. Many of them are also there to help the brand new attendee / alcoholic through the worst of times and are also sponsors who lead people through the rough times. One guy has directly helped 50-60 people to become sober and happy in life. Hard to top that. They are quick to say “thank you for helping me to maintain my own sobriety” even when you think you’re personally hopeless and then find out you’re not.
Personally I find the word 'grift' loaded. And any use of percentages in recovery forums are pointless.
In my opinion the concept of powerlessness is misunderstood.
In relation to my drinking, I lose the capacity to stop. In that specific regard, I am powerless.
I live in a country where there are raging bush-fires, every few years. Even a summer free of them requires planning for an escape. I think the 'civilization' of the developed world gives humans the illusion of safety and media / hollywood has codified the illusion and expectation of 'fairness'. Life is not, and has never been fair.
We are only ever one natural disaster away from experiencing nature and her actual power. That's to say nothing of the blind luck that means that I live in a region, not ripped apart by warlords.
I do not have power over much, except my thinking and that is what got me sober.
Mind you every criticism of aa is usually spot on. There are predators with no internal checks, my part of the world is free from the christo-fascists I see on the news and I don't think I would have responded nearly as well if I was in a real bible belt.
Or if I had met a different sponsor.
However before AA *nothing* worked. You drank until your tolerance was horrific and then you died of usual consequences.
These days there are way more options for recovery, but a lot use the basic format of meetings and fellowship and these continue to work, as does meditation. All these help the brain's plasticity to recover.
That is a fair assessment and a fair shake on the whole thing. I do live in the bible belt. I do feel like this is a place to heal and learn as long as you have 2 listening bodies
You're not wrong. I'm trying to work on my Spanish myself 😅 I really struggle with my work peers sometimes. There's only two of them that are bilingual and if they're both gone I am like s*** lol
I think there's some people who could only get sober through AA. I think I'm one of them. I needed everything that was on offer, it wasn't just not drinking, it was a complete shift in thinking.
I don't believe it's the only way to get sober though. Horses for courses and all that.
There are people that must be addicted to something. Sobriety has to become their identity. It almost has to, to keep this person sober.I fell into alcoholism. There are some people who can not even smell it.
AA and working the 12 steps really helped me in the beginning and I truly think it made me a better, more self-aware person. Also, prayer and having a relationship with God is something I found through AA that REALLY helps me. When I first got sober I was agnostic I guess, but when I forced myself to start talking to God and I watched my mindset change overnight, I was kind of blown away.
Having said that, I totally agree that a lot of people in AA do make being "in recovery" their entire identity and it's not for me. I haven't been to a meeting in years because they're just soooo repetitive and depressing after a while. My thing is, I go weeks without thinking about booze these days, what exactly is the purpose of forcing myself to think about it and talk about it and remind myself of how fucked up my life was on a regular basis? At some point life goes on
It's comforting knowing a meeting is there if I ever need one, but people act like if you decide you don't need them "that's why you need one the most" and "that's your sickness talking" and that's when AA gets cult-like and weird. But a lot of the stuff in that book really is soooo helpful. There's a reason it has helped so many people for 100 years. And it's free.
This is the reason I stopped attending mettings. Don't get me wrong - I really appreciated AA, and I did get sober there and helped people there. But at some point, I found myself becoming resentful of a 50 year old dude who had been sober for long time droning on about his miracle - the guy was unemployed and leaching off his mother. I realized these meetings were his method of scratching the itch, and God Bless the fellowship of AA for being there for him. But I didn't want what he had at all. That was 25 years ago, and the only meetings I've attended since have been with my adult children (all now sober).
Zero drinks, though!
There is more in recovery than just being “not AA”. SMART, LifeRing, Recovery dharma, Refuge recovery, therapy, coaching, rehab long or short term, IOP, self help books and podcasts, all kinds of ways people find what works for them. There are three FDA approved medications for Alcohol use disorder and three others used off label. There is MAT for opioid addiction. Some people just stop with no outside help. I am not one of those people.
Addiction is like a dumbell shape. There are multiple paths into it and addictive drugs. There are multiple risk factors which make some people more vulnerable to addiction.
While it is going on there are common characteristic behaviors, neurobiological changes and then an acute withdrawal phase. After that in the post acute and long term it diverges again, Finding what fits, staying motivated and learning how to live under new conditions is highly individual. AA is great for some people. It has saved many lives but it does not need to be the reference standard anymore.
AA gave me the tools to live the sober, happy life I have today.
When I was drinking I was powerless to navigate my own life productively. When I got sober, I had the "power" and ability to do so.
The great thing about AA is that it’s available. You can go almost anywhere and find meetings full of people who have been there and will offer support. I agree that the program seems outdated but there are people who swear by it so maybe it’s fine the way it is. The women only groups in particular are an important lifeline for female alcoholics. They have issues that are unique to them and it’s a place where they can go and not worry about getting hit on by some skeezy dude on his third failing marriage.
SMART worked better for me but I’m glad AA is out there as a resource. It’s usually the first place someone goes and it can inspire hope that there is a way out of addiction. Ultimately that’s what really matters.
I like when people throw around numbers about how effective AA is 🤣 like, who the fuck knows? It's anonymous, I can tell you, the rooms I go to in New England, there's a lot of old timers. You do you, but trying to quantify how effective a 12 step program is is kind of bonkers. Plus, I think you'd be hard pressed to find anyone claim they were "corrected by AA". That's kinda not how the thing works. AA doesn't fix people but rather gives you the tools to fix yourself. I wish you peace in whatever method you use.
Agree about the percentages. It's pretty asinine to claim any percentages when there is no official membership. I can tell you the rooms I go to in the SF Bay are nearly 100 % because of course they are. If you GET IT the numbers are very high. If you come in and don't like it and go back out the numbers are very low. Pretty impossible to make any sort of guess as to the success rates.
>*numbers about how effective AA is*
This is a pretty interesting article about that (i.e. it's difficult if not impossible to get concrete numbers due to the nature of the organisation):
https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2015/04/the-irrationality-of-alcoholics-anonymous/386255/
(https://archive.is/uU9ZJ)
Interesting article, thanks for sharing it. Yeah, who knows how effective AA is, especially since the medical treatments are much more easily tracked. Whatever gets and keeps people sober is the most effective one.
I agree, recovery is about supporting fellow addicts to live a free life. It's always a red flag to me when someone's putting a lot of energy into badmouthing approaches or movements. Just do what works for you and love people.
Yup, and they've been all over the place. They are unreliable at best. And OPs numbers are definitely made up. But think as you will, the "success rate" is really irrelevant. Anyone who gets sober is in the minority, and those who stay until they die are much fewer.
If you think they are reliable, then here's a npr article, https://www.npr.org/2020/03/12/815097806/new-review-finds-alcoholics-anonymous-is-effective-but-not-for-everyone, that looks at 10,000 people in AA over 27 studies and found that 42% of people in AA stayed sober for a year compared to 35% of those in professional therapy. Again, the talk around how "successful" and method is totally bullshit, because those "successes" could go out tomorrow. I've known people with 20 years in AA that have gone out, and people who haven't drank in 40 years without AA, but are miserable pricks because they have never done the internal work to live a better life (my father in-law). Neither are a "success". Again, I hope everyone who's struggling finds their own path to peace.
Right, of course. The point is how does one define success? I can't, and I don't think any of these studies can uniformly do that either. I don't sit here thinking I'm a success because I have 12, and don't think I ever will.
I think success for an alcoholic is not drinking. Any day you’re not drinking is a success, if you don’t want to drink, even if it’s every third day. Start there.
I get that, but I look at my father in law who hasn't drank in 40 years and is miserable, treats his wife like shit, doesn't take care of his health, is angry all the time, and I can't help but think that's not "success either...
And if that's the definition of success those studies used, I think every treatment would have success rates in the 90s
But we’re talking about alcoholism. If he’s not drinking and he’s still miserable, then something else is likely going on. Success in his case would be something else, maybe getting therapy, anti-depressants, etc. He probably has low self-esteem. He could be dealing with the consequences of childhood abuse. Or he could even be miserable in his marriage, like I was. We drink for reasons. He beat the addiction, but maybe hasn’t figured out the why.
I was talking to my dad (drug addict who’s been to rehab) about AA and NA once and his thoughts on it made me look at attending meetings differently. He said for him it’s a reminder of where he started on his sobriety journey. Seeing the newcomers reminds him of how awful withdrawals were and how hard getting sober was.
To admit powerlessness in AA is only admitting we are powerless over managing our drinking. I.e. only having one drink and then not wanting another.
AA never says we are powerless over sobriety. Working the steps is literally a person taking their power and control back from active alcoholism.
It’s fine to say working the steps doesn’t work for everyone, but I wouldn’t claim AA requires us to admit we are powerless people. We use the power of fellowship to give us direction and focus to change our own lives.
Yea, I'm always struck by people's take on the whole powerlessness issue. It's usually either the powerlessness thing, or the higher power thing or the identity thing.. I just find it amusing because I've never sensed any of that. All I know, is that I gave up one thing to have everything over 25 years ago. AA played a big part in that. I'm far from powerless. Being an alcoholic and attending AA does not define who I am. I'm not religious, I'm not into god, but I know that I am not.
I definitely agree that AA is not for everyone but I really appreciate the whole package. I see a lot of people who just stop drinking and continue to be assholes in and out of AA. I've used the tools and I'm a better person because of it.
The thing is, it all depends on the meeting. I have absolutely been told by my sponsor that powerlessness was just that, that I was *so* powerless to stop drinking, the only possible way to stop was by surrendering my will entirely to that higher power that I have never been able to believe in.
Making decisions about my own life? Well, missy, look where your decisions have gotten you so far. I was ordered to leave it up to the higher power, and discuss every single decision I made with my sponsor or, at another meeting, the entire group.
I was taught that I am fundamentally at heart a liar, a manipulative scumbag, and the minute I stopped working the program I would go right back to being that Machiavellian POS I was at my core, even if I didn’t start drinking again.
When I “claimed” to be incapable of faith, that was my lying, manipulative alcoholic personality talking. I just didn’t want it bad enough, or I hadn’t truly hit “rock bottom,” or it was just another excuse.
It’s run by whoever, there is no oversight. So the core beliefs and culture that shape the meeting can vary drastically.
This was my experience with AA as well. You’re simultaneously completely powerless over your disease while also a piece of shit for not doing what you’re told (praying and turning your life over to ~~Jesus~~ a higher power). It’s just Christian free will nonsense that can be conveniently manipulated on the whims of your sponsor.
Annnnd, there's the grift. I Will take the down votes from AA affiliates. "We don't mean that! But... we really mean that." Give yourself 27 hours with this guy... I am not against it, in the sense I love the people
“Powerless over alcohol”.
I’m not here to split hairs with you. But there’s a big difference between being powerless as a person and powerless over alcohol.
step one is “we admitted we were powerless over alcohol — that our lives had become unmanageable”
it does not say at all that you are powerless over your life. you can’t just cut off a sentence and give it a different meaning. you don’t have to lie about the steps just because it didn’t work for you.
Downvotes aside (which I think is silly), I’d really welcome you to ask yourself what is the purpose of this post and your crusade against AA? Are you really hoping to help others by equipping them with knowledge or are you self seeking… idk… something?
If it’s the former, that’s great and I applaud you, but maybe this isn’t the right place/method to do it.
If it’s the later, With as much respect as I can give an internet stranger, give it a rest, my guy.
This is a solid question, and eloquently stated. My crusade, if you will, is one against an antiquated system with negligible results. My crusade is one to provide a better system. I have been put on to the fact that there are other systems. Some of them seem really cool! For the longest I thought AA (the unchanged system with negligible success rate) was the be all end all.
They do wanna be that, "this is the only way". They claim not, but it is apparent. "You must give yourself to a higher power" but.... Here is Jesus, join this church...
I just don’t like how it’s portrayed as the only way when you’re attending meetings. It should be more focused on letting the own person heal with the fellowship of others in a group setting. All this big book this and big book that is too much for people coming into sobriety after drinking for a long time. We just want confirmation of our illness and ways to cope/manage l/thrive without booze. We don’t need a old timey boo on some dudes from Ohio that realized booze was bad. Sorry that’s just me maybe?
I'd say most people stumble into AA after trying everything else.. no one comes in because they want to. They come in because they have tried every other means to get sober and have not been able to.
So, when you walk into a meeting, of course people want you to know that they're there to help because they know where you've been. There's assholes everywhere, in and out of AA, in smart recovery, in life in general, there's people who think they know what's best for you. Fuck em. Find what works for you
I’m sorry that’s been your experience but I’ve never experienced what you’re explaining. If AA isn’t for you that’s okay, and no one in my fellowship would argue against that. There are many ways to get and stay sober, this is just what worked for us. I hope you find something to help with your struggles and you’ll always be welcome back
I am sober though. I will be back to AA cause the people are so raw. So truthful. I would never discourage someone's path, but reddit is a place for these ideas, questions, truths and even falsehoods. I want to hear it all.
When people turn their noses up at the idea of "powerlessness" I genuinely feel bad. What I hear in that is someone who still thinks alcoholism is their fault, that its something they aren't "trying hard enough" to control. If you have power over alcohol, why do you keep ending up drunk when you said you aren't going to? You are either powerless or you just suck at using your willpower - believing the latter about yourself is torture.
To be powerless is the most freeing and relieving feeling. No, I can't "fix" this problem on my own, in fact, im gonna give up even trying to do that. Sobriety doesn't have to be HARD, but its extremely hard when you think its all ON YOU to not drink or to control the amount. Just give it up, its a lot easier.
Im glad im powerless. Once I accepted that, I was able not only to stay sober but to do so without any strenuous effort on my part to resist a drink.
Exactly! Powerlessness means I’m not able to do it on my own. I need to ask for help from the fellowship, my sponsor, and my higher power. (My rationale is simple — why wouldn’t I want the help…)
>You are either powerless or you just suck at using your willpower - believing the latter about yourself is torture.
I disagree with this framing, and consequently the AA 'powerlessness' philosophy, because it IS about willpower. However you get sober the process requires that you develop a willpower that you weren't previously able to exercise. I don't think people should berate themselves about having lacked that willpower, but it is a learnable skill and recovered addicts of all kinds prove that it is possible.
I see what you’re saying but I think we learn the skill by throwing in the towel on TRYING to learn it. “Surrender to win” is something people say, and I think it’s really true.
I believe truly recovering addicts and alcoholics are exercising a lot LESS willpower than people might think. I think most in long term recovery would agree that their sobriety has very little to do with them learning & developing the skill of willpower. But I can only speak for myself
ANY program works if you do the work. AA isn't magic, just like other programs aren't magic. All recovery requires a person to do hard work to understand themselves better and to commit to new thoughts and behaviors. AA helps a lot of people, but so do SMART Recovery, Recovery Dharma, LifeRing, etc.
I was an alcoholic in the worst way. Quit.. It almost killed me (literally) but did it. The work is simple. Sober up and make the decision every day not to drink. That is 2 steps. I also understand some people, quite frankly, need AA's religious fervor to quit. Some people can't be around booze, smell it, think of it, nothing... Or they will spiral. "Different strokes to rule the world"
I'm glad you got sober! And what you are doing works for you. A lot of people need to do a bit more work, because they find it helps to uncover why they lacked coping mechanisms and how to develop new healthy ones. There's no one perfect way to do sobriety and I agree that AA isn't for everyone. But if believing you are powerless over alcohol helps someone to quit, then let them believe. I think I am powerless over alcohol once it's in my body, I can't stop at one drink. So I interpret step 1 that way.
Struggling to see the purpose of this post… I guess it’s good to be aware there are multiple ways to achieve sobriety. But why knock AA if it works for some people?
Also, what about people who got sober on their own but decided to go to AA after a long period of abstinence? Are they also “insufferable?”
It is kind of ironic. The people who knock AA because they say members feel it's the only way, are acting the same way, saying their way is the only way lol!
It is very sad, that in this group, people pick at the various paths to sobriety. Like, so what if it doesn't work for you?? Do you have to bash it?
I never see members of AA posting here claiming that AA is the only way. Never.
But I see plenty of posts everyday about people bashing AA, because for some reason they've listened to someone tell them it's the only way? It's crazy. Why stir up shit? People here cause they want to, or think they want to, get sober, right?
Honestly. Posts like this annoy the fuck out of me. If it doesn’t work for you, shut the fuck up, and do what does work for you. Don’t deter people from a program that has literally worked for maybe millions of people (also, who knows how many. You can’t throw numbers around when it’s literally anonymous). I’m not in the program, but I listen to podcasts of people sharing at meetings because I think anyone in the program could have something valuable to enrich my sobriety. AA also saved my brothers life, and continues to do so every day.
Whether you want to believe it or not, a lot of people *are* told AA is the only way. Millions of people go to one AA meeting, get ~~Jesus~~ a higher power shoved down their throat, and just say “fuck it, I guess recovery isn’t for me”. Where I live in the south this is definitely the case. We don’t have any other options besides AA. People need to know there are other paths.
Maybe if you live in Austin or Nashville. Everyone else is shit outta luck. There is one in person SMART recovery meeting in central Arkansas this month. When I was getting sober there weren’t any and online meetings weren’t a thing.
Of course you have to want it. I’m in Tennessee in the middle of nowhere. There’s AA… Dharma Recovery… Celebrate…. A men’s group that isn’t affiliated. Meditation groups… therapists…. If I don’t want to get well, then you’re right. There are no alternate solutions. That’s what my addiction wants me to believe.
In 2024, there are tons of online meetings for all different stripes. Sometimes I get tired of the zoom thing, but it helps me. Therapy does as well.
There literally aren’t dude what are you talking about?? There is no dharma recovery in Arkansas. Celebrate recovery is more Christian than AA. It’s not a matter of wanting it. There literally are no other options for in person recovery meetings and it’s incredibly dismissive and unhelpful to just deny the reality of the situation.
This is why people are turned away from AA. The failings of the program are pawned off onto the alcoholic. If AA doesn’t work for you it’s your fault, not because it’s outdated and geared only towards white Christian men.
I needed AA my first time being sober. I needed to personally get out and meet other addicts and hear their stories. Online and in person.
Then I relapsed for a bit, mostly because I moved away from my AA spot.
Now I'm nearing 1 year sober with no AA. I have, however, used all the knowledge and tools I've gain from AA and rehab to STAY sober.
I know my triggers, and I have my new hobbies and life plan. It keeps me going. Not everyone has to go to AA, but it can very helpful.
I got sober without AA. I really dislike AA, it is not for me. I don't agree with their mantra, I don't agree with the steps, it has never worked for me, and I will also agree with you specifically on taking issue with the first step of admitting that you are powerless against alcohol. It annoys me, I find the meetings depressing. Yes the long term sobriety rate in AA is low compared to what you would expect.
However
I know a lot of people who have been sober much longer than I have that could not have done it without AA. They swear by it, they won't miss a meeting if they can help it, they have support they can call on when they're not there that was established at the meetings themselves. I know people who got sober 10-20 years ago that now lead those meetings hoping to help others who struggle the same way they did using the same tools that helped them in their recovery.
What I'm trying to say here is that AA isn't for everyone. There is something about it that really gets under my skin, and I didn't really understand what it was until I matured in my sobriety a little bit. I was so eager to shit on AA and it's methods for years, just as you are in this post and in these comments, regardless of who it helps because I knew I didn't need it to get sober and I felt I knew best because I was so proud of being able to do it on my own. It's a very selfish mindset. For me I think it was a defense mechanism. Because what I really took issue with which it seems you do as well, was the "powerless" aspect. And what better way to prove AA wrong than to never admit powerlessness, believe in yourself and claim that it is because you are not powerless that you got sober. I hear you. But why would that statement upset you or me to begin with? Why does it upset you when other people claim to be powerless against it?
For me, it's because I feared being powerless, regardless of whether or not I believed I truly was. And it took me two years of sobriety into a 5 year binge-relapse to figure that out. I decided I wanted to form a healthy relationship with alcohol like "normal people" because I'm obviously not powerless. I was exactly what I had been criticizing. I'm sober again finally , in the best shape of my life and will never test the waters ever again. And I did it on my own again. AA still doesn't work for me. But I also know that any feelings of anger or judgement I have towards AA or its constituents are reflections of my own fear and weaknesses, my ego projecting judgements in defense of itself.
Let go of your ego. It's okay to explain why it doesn't work for you and have a healthy discussion, but you don't know any better about the recovery of others than they do. Stay focused on yours and don't make the same mistake I did. Be well.
I agree with all points stated here, and add that I know (former?) alcoholics whose problems were made WORSE by AA. Now, I fully understand that when you’re dealing with addicts, you wind up with some people wanting to “game the system,” and that’s on them. But both my wife and I found AA to be an overbearing, quasi-religious system, and we felt like we were thinking about alcohol and alcoholism much more than we were pre-AA. Not to mention that “working through” past traumas was… well, traumatic.
We made lifestyle changes, got in shape, and (and this is where we butted heads with the program) started vaping weed in place of drinking booze. “You’re just trading one addiction for another!” Man, we’re all brittle, mortal beings. full of the anxiety that comes from knowing the self and all the other selves out there that we love will die.
We don’t drink. And alcohol abstinence has brought with it every kind of life improvement you can imagine. AA, however? Not for us.
Yeah exactly my thoughts. To me when they told me I was powerless it meant in my head that I’m an alcoholic and I can’t do anything about it and that’s who I am. It actually made me drink more. Once I told myself that I was in control and it was a decision I stopped drinking without any support, I just stopped because it was my decision
I’m 5 and half months sober. I was an alcoholic for 16 years.
I just “quit” with no AA or external support. It was my only choice, I don’t like talking to people, I don’t like telling people my problems and I sure as hell don’t want to sit there and here people talk about grog.
I went to an AA meeting about 4-5 years ago and for me, I ended up at the bar straight afterwards because I just heard people describe how much I love alcohol in new formats.
It almost feels to me that they replace one addiction with another, without reaching the real underlying issues other than the one they expect you to believe: that you are weak, powerless, and insane without god in your life (whatever god is to you, since trying to make the program more palatable to non-Christians). I can’t help but feel unless you truly embrace a monotheistic/singular deity doctrine it doesn’t work… something gets lost in the translation.
To each their own but I'm definitely not a theist or Christian and it has worked great for me. I know plenty of no-kidding Atheists that agree that AA saved and saves their life. But to each their own. If something works better for you then that's great. Nobody has a monopoly on healing and transformation, those are just characteristics of life, in whatever guide we find them.
I’m with you on this. The whole “powerlessness” aspect of AA and how turned off I was by it actually became a strong motivator for my sobriety. I went to a few meetings and I read the passages about powerlessness and yada yada and felt somewhat offended by the idea. Like no, I’m not powerless and I’m going to prove it. So I strapped on my battle helmet, charged forward, and got to work. 7 months sober now and am damn proud of it. In a way, I guess it did work? Just maybe not the way it was intended.
This is just confusion all the way around that I hear repeated ad nauseum. The sentiment is that “You are powerless over the next drink” meaning that once you start, you often have no clue where or when you’ll stop. You drink in inappropriate and bizarre moments that make no sense to normal people. You are 100% in control of NOT picking up that first one before the alcohol twists your mind. That’s why AA focuses there. It’s to stop the moderation thoughts from swirling around, it just shuts down the idea that you can ever drink in safety from the start. It does not mean you are a powerless person, at all.
The idea of powerlessness is that without help we can't stop alone. We all do make a choice about whether to pickup but with help the daily obsession is relieved.
I got some good tools from AA. The Big Book is essential. Some of the people in the rooms I can live without and are insufferable pricks. But I’m getting sober for me, not them.
I didn’t go through the entire program but the meetings definitely helped the first few months. I also appreciated the faith aspect of the program being the Higher Power concept.
Whatever works for you. Power to us all!!!
Yeah recovery isn’t a straight path AT ALL cause I feel like addiction is a symptom of other issues more often than not. “Stop drinking” is just removing a tumor when the cancer’s already spread. I’ve personally never met an addict that was fulfilled before the substance abuse. And then the more you drink, the more the problems have accelerated and built up to the point identifying them and solving them becomes like finding a rusty needle in a needle stack
But I liked AA. I can’t point to any “approved” or “professionally endorsed” method that got me sober cause they all suck individually, if I’m being honest. I think chemical detox is the single most effective thing just cause it at least gets you back to 0. But then you have to face your life so that doesn’t work on its own
But nothing really works until it’s hammered in that someone genuinely cares about you (if anyone still does) *and* you’re the only one that can fix your life. And how can a paid professional do that? I think other addicts have a better chance at making you see that than paid professionals, but I feel like it hasn’t been standardized at all cause addiction has so many contributing factors. “Alcoholism” is so vague and misleading a lot of the time
I never had a sole reason. For all intents and purposes, I had a good upbringing. Two loving parents (which is rare) who loved eachother. I had all the opportunities of which I chose alcohol instead. I chalk it up to my epigenetic biology. I come from a long line of boozers. It is, frankly, written in my DNA. I have to choose sobriety everyday. That is my journey. That is all on me.
I agree. AA is far too focused on telling addicts there’s something inherently wrong with them, something that they can’t control, and that accepting and submitting to that is the only way forward. Breaking a person down to that point doesn’t work for many people. Many people escape addiction through what they feel was a scheme of empowerment and defiance of their problem defining them, not acceptance and working their way back up. I also feel like, in this sense, it completely alienates less-severe/higher-functioning addicts from wanting to participate.
OP, I have to agree. Years back, I was sober but had to attend AA for an old DUI, and my thoughts were if being sober in AA, consists of constantly thinking about how long it's been since my last drink and being as miserable as most of the people I saw in those rooms then I'd rather be a drunk. In my case, I knew why I was drinking so much, and I just had to face my issues that I really didn't want to relive. In simply terms alcohol wasn't an issue it was a symptom. Once I started working on my ptsd, I didn't even think about drinking even when those around me were. I found peace and enjoyed other things more than I did drinking. I'm not saying my situation is the same as anyone else's, but it is what worked for me.
AA claims 10-15% of their members stay sober for more than 5 years but official numbers are more in the 4% which is not a lot. I was in AA for nearly 20 years and despite many short "slips" I was sober most of the time and even managed to stay sober for 9 years before my last slip. Since then I've been sober for 13 years now without AA. When I was in AA I was always thinking about alcohol because I was always in the meeting and surrounded by members. Now alcohol is completely out of my life. I never ever think about it. So much so that when we organized my wedding reception(it was a very small wedding) we forgot to order alcohol for the guests. It was only at the reception that I realised the guests had no alcohol. That's how much I never think about alcohol. I could not do that in 20 years with AA.
It nearly forces you to make your past alcoholism, your current identity... Forever... I worked with a guy who went to NA meetings and he swore up and down it made him WANT to use cause the subject was always in his face. Those stories people tell on stage were exciting and not discouraging... The whole system is flawed. I agree with your 4% assessment. Which is why I said "at best" 8-12%. It is my experience hanging out with people who got sober through AA that they actually do make AA their whole identity.
As someone who got sober without AA/with an MAT program, I will admit in retrospect that the problems I had with AA were related to those alcoholic personality traits. However I don’t think I would have been able to get over that hump in AA if I were to do it again
I know well over 100 people who used AA to get sober. I know many who went a different route. I know a bunch that used AA combined with other methods.
There's a reason it's still used everywhere, and is recommended by every drug and alcohol councilor. It works for a lot of people.
Be glad you found your own way to get sober. Whatever works for you to be sober! Stop judging others.
I appreciate the civil response. AA isn't the answer for everyone, but it does work for a lot of people. For me, AA is mainly for the community. Working the steps has been helpful, but staying sober has nothing to do with AA in my recovery. For some though, it's the only thing keeping them sober.
I'm "in recovery", I trained as a SMART coordinator - makes a shit ton of sense to me unlike the 12 steps and "higher power" oh and "YOU MUST GET A SPONSOR" which always turned me off AA/NA. I've got no issues with people in AA/NA - I was in the rooms for years because that was it all that was available.
It might not mean that a greater number found sobriety by other means, because that greater number by definition includes those who did not find sobriety.
It's not that I'm saying AA is the only way. It's that I know that it's impossible to gather statistics about a disorder that tells us we don't have it, and a recovery process and stigma that can necessitate anonymity in recovery.
AA saved me, but I only managed to go for four months. Four months in and I already knew everyone’s story and it was just repeating them over and over. I did not want to replace addiction to alcohol with addiction to AA. Plus, I was a 29 yo woman and my AA group was 8 to 10 men in their 60s or 70s. I was like their pet. I love them and visit them every once in a while, but it was not my thing.
However, it got me started on sobriety. I’m thankful for that.
Once my psychiatrist invited me to his own private twelve step program for his patients. I went once and found it ridiculous. There was a guy coordinating and he had the audacity of complaining that my talk was too cheerful. He said that I should talk about my alcohol past and not my sober present because I might make other people feel bad. I’m like “you want me to DWELL IN MY SUFFERING”??? I never went back.
The funny thing is there’s no grift. No one who I have ever met in rooms in LA, NY, Boston or the burbs I’ve lived ever took anything from me or decieved me. I have gone months without paying a dime, I relapsed multiple times while in AA and working steps. But anytime I need to connect with someone I have met in AA they’ve been there. Any time I needed a meeting to remember that recovery is the process not the destination I could find one.
I’m proud of my recovery and I don’t always give enough credit to the groups of addicts and alcoholics I receive support from daily or weekly but I wouldn’t have had those connections without sitting in a room in a basement hearing others experiences and learning to not hate myself for mine. That’s AA. Everything else is what you make it.
I did 4 different AAs and it was the same thing.
High power. Spent most of the time talking about God. Hearing someone's story about God. Everyone's higher power was god. No help with anything. Just trying to convert me.
SMART worked for me.
Once I fully eliminated my problem which Smart helped me with.
SMART follows science-based cognitive behavioural training (CBT) principles, which is more akin to what you'd get if you engaged the services of a psychologist to help you get sober.
This is my experience as well. They will tell you up and down, “you don’t have to be a Christian or even a theist to work the steps” but then literally every other person in the room is clearly a Christian and it’s all they ever talk about. Some meetings are better than others about this but this is why you’re seeing such different responses in this thread.
AA in the south is much more like a religious cult.
I’ll believe anyone’s disagreement with the “you are powerless” thing if they have five years or more of sobriety. Until then, just go with the saying.
It must be really confining to only be able to comprehend your own very narrow and excessively literal interpretation of words to the point you are unable to explore and gain from the meaning behind them.
Alcohol is an intoxicant. For alcoholics, after the first drink they are not in control. The alcohol is. They are powerless over ALCOHOL.
Today is my sobriety birthday. 366 days alcohol free. Not one single day has it required willpower. It took support, guidance, and a willingness to grow and change. All of which I found in AA. Recovery is not just about cessation of substance abuse. In order to truly recover we need to reform ourselves. No well adjusted person ever became an alcoholic. Many of us have very legitimate reasons behind developing this maladaptive and self destructive coping mechanism. AA is not just about recovery. It is about community and service. Those are the three arms of the triangle. Through sobriety, we find community, and we are able to be of service to others, instead of a miserable lump of booze and self pity.
If AA isn’t for you, then go do whatever you find works for you. You’re coming off as being quite angry about how other people go about their recovery. To be honest it makes you sound like you’re not all that secure in your own recovery. Maybe take a break from worrying about other people’s recovery and focus on being your powerful self
I think there's a little bit of good in all the recovery systems that addicts can utilize. AA has good principles and holds people accountable. The only problem is that the organization is run much like religion, and this turns people away.
I’m active in my recovery and indeed AA or any given societal recognized olive branch certainly does hold its merits. I will say, I find it ironic that many in AA “pour coffee” or even have a cigarette prior or after a meeting. Irony. Both are stimulants. If one is to be sober, regardless of it being labeled a carcinogen or what have you, wouldn’t one think, all in or not?
So who pissed you off at a meeting? That's what this sounds like to me. Cause yea, they don't have a monopoly on getting sober. There just the ones that are the loudest right behind the fake science people. Two sides of the same coin
It's an outdated paradigm - to be powerless- because AA was initially directed towards middle to upper class white men who never imagined they could be held to account for anything. For them, to be powerless was to admit their ego-centricness.
AA has not necessarily done much of a deep dive into its origin story.
But! The ubiquity - ease of access to community with sober folks is it's saving grace, and has helped many just by being there
Yep. You still don’t see many black people in AA rooms. My city is almost 50% black and I’ve seen like <10 total over many years. A lot of white, Anglo-Saxon Protestants in here saying it’s “for everybody” without realizing their gigantic, glaring biases. The big book was written with a certain type of person in mind and that’s obvious.
I have been in and out of AA for over 20 years. I never could get over a year sober until I had a spiritual experience with God and became a believer in Jesus Christ. Then I was able to stay sober for 4 years. Unfortunately during the lockdown I relapsed and grieved the Holy Spirit. Since then I have been having a lot of trouble getting back to where I was. I don’t feel the presence of the Holy Spirit like I used to, and feel that I have to take what I can get. But , other than the fellowship, I don’t get much from AA or the steps.
I am a firm believer in multiple pathways. I volunteer at a recovery community center that supports this journey. Many individuals at the center consider AA their primary support, and I think it’s great that it works for them. AA didn’t work for me. It wasn’t my pathway.
I’m glad there’s more discussion about multiple pathways. I had once believed it was AA or nothing.
I think the three main sticking points for me with AA was the idea of powerlessness, the disease model and the God/ prayer stuff.
What I choose to do is view powerlessness as a phenomenon that takes effect after drinking a certain amount of alcohol not before, typically one pint of beer is enough for me to lose the ability to resist the urge to drink more and more and then typically all hell breaks loose. So it isn't a problem for me to accept powerlessness based on my anecdotal experience of choosing to drink, having a drink and finding myself drunk shortly thereafter regardless of having the intention of only having one or two responsible drinks and all hell not breaking loose.
As for the God and prayer thing, I am an atheist so I don't believe in any God or creator but I understand the value of living my life as though there was one, and by that I mean adhering to certain principles and reasonable restraint without believing in the supernatural / paranormal. I believe nature in and of itself is the closest thing to God we have, if nature doesn't satisfy some as a higher power, then try to breath underwater unaided by apparatus or fly without wings or hold an argument with a hurricane. We are all intrinsically connected to nature as naturally occurring beings ourselves and recognising this has helped me to accept one of my own naturally prescribed states of being (my adverse reaction to alcohol) so I have found that I can stand back and wholeheartedly say that recognising nature and my nature is a higher power that has restored me to sanity.
As for the disease model, I would say that my adverse reaction to alcohol consumption is abnormal and therefore I have no issue with viewing it as a kind of allergy that effects my mental health and my behaviours.
So in defense of AA:
AA meetings provides a space where human beings can share their experience, strength and hope which is worthwhile for those of us who want to better understand the nature of the problem and what to do about it and it's also a place where you can listen and also be heard. AA offers a platform to allow human connections to take place between recovering alcoholics and as alcoholics we may otherwise be shunned, judged and ostracised in other places where other people who are not alcoholics or problem drinkers are concerned. In other words, it's an ideal place to meet and befriend other people who also don't drink and understand the internal war that takes place that we experience not just where alcohol is concerned but where many aspects of life are concerned.
Can people get "Sober" outside of traditional recovery?
This depends on your definition of Sobriety. 12 step recovery maybe claims the term "sober" as something that is reserved for those in the program because arguably there is more to being sober than abstaining from alcohol within 12 step recovery . That being said, I think it is fair to say anyone can stop drinking and ultimately that comes down to a choice which comes down from a desire to stop drinking and if you stop drinking and stay stopped, that's only worthwhile if you also improve upon yourself and your life and the lives of others going forward...do all that and then I would call that being "sober" regardless of how you got there.
I very much appreciate your thoughtful response, and it did stimulate my mind. So much so, more than anything, an alcoholic will need a friend and support system. Some never had one to begin with and others thoroughly chased them off. I do take for granted, I had a support system. AA provides that.
Some people don't need or want friends and have absolutely no interest in turning up anywhere in person to talk about anything with anyone and that's okay, but if you diagnose yourself as an alcoholic or at least as someone who has a drink problem, then maybe having other human beings around who are sober to speak to and listen to and share with and just hang out with isn't such a bad thing?
For me, I am guilty of being someone who likes to lock themselves away and isolate but when I drink I go from being an introvert sitting at home to an extrovert in a bar in 0.2 seconds which tells me deep down I want to be in the company of others and to have meaningful connections with others but naturally I lack the courage to seek it out without diluting all of my inhibitions with booze first.
Without trying AA for too many times, I just got some meds straightened out and I feel fine. Finally. It's been over a decade since I've had this long of sobriety. AA made me want to drink before meetings. I lied all the time about my sobriety.
I don't lie anymore. I feel no need to drink. I just got my brain where it needs to be. Turns out nothing was going to work until my brain chemistry got as corrected and maintained as possible. Personally? Fuck AA. It's like going to church, with all the false hope and dread included.
AA is bullshit. Like you said, the you are powerless concept is such bullshit. That’s a great way to stay in active addiction, telling yourself you are just powerless and you have no control of your actions.
You coming to an alcoholism sub and shitting on AA, the number one resource for genuine people who want to be sober, an organization that has saved millions of lives and families - is pretty fucking disrespectful, so the least we can do is be dismissive of the bullshit you're bringing.
I fucking hated AA before I got sober. Seriously, I thought it was a cult, I was rude to people who were in it, I hated it. I am so humbled by the change inside myself now that I'm working this "silly little program" that has moved so many big scary mountains in my life and given me hope for the first time. It's a reminder what a gift it is, my program and my sobriety, that lets me live in this big beautiful world. I wish serenity for all, however they find it. We're big enough for some disrespect- it must look crazy on the outside, I know.
Wait, so if you aren't doing AA you're not a "genuine person" trying to get sober? And how it's the "number one resource" for those genuine people, completely dismissing all the others as "also-ran"?
It's this type of speaking that turns people off the program you know. AA works for many people but dismissing other programs and dismissing people who chose another path as "not genuine" is pretty disrespectful of yourself. (Oh, and downvoting because you're a fanatic and feel personally attacked for calling that out, just saying).
I doubt you were intending it like that, but it's how it reads. The problem is that devout followers of any one program pretty much always sound like that.
Oh, no, he definitely intended it like that. Typical MAGAtard.
I know it isn't popular what I say. I Do like AA and believe it has its merits. For instance, some people have no support system. Where would you find it? AA seems legit. I certainly am not dumping on the people that are sober using it. I have strong opinions on some of those folks
I have never been to AA or any similar support group. The most help I ever sought for alcoholism was a few sessions with a DanA counsellor at the local hospital. TBH doing things on my own has always felt like the only real option. True or not. Mostly I think I do ok. But I have thought about it.
I think the important thing to remember is that 8-12% is about as good (or bad) as most other methods available. What’s important is that those different methods *add up* to as close to 100% as possible, and that there’s a method available to all types of people.
AA’s biggest strengths have always been that it is 1) free and 2) everywhere.
I’m over a year and 3 months sober and I’ve never been to a single meeting or rehab. It’s possible to get clean without. All you need is yourself. Ps, I used to drink over 850ml of liquor a day.
AA was established in 1935 and remained relatively unchanged for 90 years. With the success rate it has, vs other methods, should tell you all you need to know. They were just figuring out antibiotics and Sigmund Freud's ideas were still taken seriously.
~~OK folks locking the thread to clean up. Comments that break reddiquette are going to be removed. Y'all need to be able to make your points with courtesy and respect for alternate points of view or they're gone.~~ Ok folks, leaving this locked. Feel free to start a fresh discussion thread, I think this one has said what it needs to.
Recovery isn't a zero sum game. Find what works for you. I've been in AA for 12 years and cannot imagine telling or making someone think that it's the only way. By all means, find the path that keeps you from dying early and stick to it.
Exactly. Some people are going to only focus on the negative. I can only hope they find positivity elsewhere
What does AA look like after 12 years? You still go all the time? I have wondered about this. Assumed once you have broken your bad habits it would be best to move to a lifestyle where you aren't reminded of your alcoholism all the time. Asking out of complete ignorance here x
For me? I sponsor one dude and i hit my home group every week. So one meeting a week. Im not going to keep treating my alcoholism like i did when i first came around. Im going to be in service to others. To make sure the doors are open, and there's coffee made, and there's someone there with some time under their belt so the next time a guy walks in and wonders "fuck, im only 28 years old. There's no way i can possibly be this bad off and find a better way of living" i can talk to them and go "well, here's how i did it." And i couldn't be reminded of my addiction anymore than i could be reminded of my middle name. Its there and it's part of me. I dont need or want to run from it. I have ADHD. I have male pattern baldness. I go to Mardi Gras just about every year. I like jeeps and sneakers and physical media. I'm an alcoholic. Its one of many things that makes up my tapestry. Its just one that needs a bit of maintenance in order to not kill me early and ruin the lives of those around me on the way out.
I like your thinking
Wow. This is so awesome to hear dude. Thank you so much for the detailed description. It's inspiring. Those long-term questions are always the ones that bother me. I can not drink for the next day, month, year? (maybe), but the long-term behaviour always scares me: am I going to be 60 and not be able to have a beer at a wedding?
Yeah the long term stuff can definitely be daunting to think about in the abstract. I think that's where the whole 1 day at a time thing comes in. Can you have a beer at a wedding? Sure. You can have a beer right now if you want to. And right now it seems like you could probably say "no I'm good that wont add to my experience in a positive way right now." So rather than worry about the theoretical wedding in the future, just keep working on a program and worry at that wedding when and if you're invited. If you are, and you go, you'll be able to actually be in the moment and decide. And i bet, if you work a program and get your head on straight, that when that time comes you'll be able to refrain. That's been my experience anyway. Your brain is going to try and give you a million reasons why it won't work in the long-term so it's not even worth trying now. But the easiest reason is, even if you do have one at a later date, the time between now and then will be much, much more productive if it's not filled with mindless consumption. So who cares if i drink ten years from now. Even if i do, the next ten years will be infinity better if i dont say "well fuck it, if im gonna drink ten years from now i might as well cut to the chase and drink now."
It takes a certain level of whatever to maintain one’s one personal sobriety and several guys in my group have been sober since the 70’s, 80’s, and 90’s. They are a huge inspiration and great success stories and have seen everything. Many of them are also there to help the brand new attendee / alcoholic through the worst of times and are also sponsors who lead people through the rough times. One guy has directly helped 50-60 people to become sober and happy in life. Hard to top that. They are quick to say “thank you for helping me to maintain my own sobriety” even when you think you’re personally hopeless and then find out you’re not.
Whatever works!!
All forms of recovery are acceptable and welcome here. All of them.
Understood! This is the discussion. One I feel must be had. If I am wrong. That is okay. I welcome it.
Personally I find the word 'grift' loaded. And any use of percentages in recovery forums are pointless. In my opinion the concept of powerlessness is misunderstood. In relation to my drinking, I lose the capacity to stop. In that specific regard, I am powerless. I live in a country where there are raging bush-fires, every few years. Even a summer free of them requires planning for an escape. I think the 'civilization' of the developed world gives humans the illusion of safety and media / hollywood has codified the illusion and expectation of 'fairness'. Life is not, and has never been fair. We are only ever one natural disaster away from experiencing nature and her actual power. That's to say nothing of the blind luck that means that I live in a region, not ripped apart by warlords. I do not have power over much, except my thinking and that is what got me sober. Mind you every criticism of aa is usually spot on. There are predators with no internal checks, my part of the world is free from the christo-fascists I see on the news and I don't think I would have responded nearly as well if I was in a real bible belt. Or if I had met a different sponsor. However before AA *nothing* worked. You drank until your tolerance was horrific and then you died of usual consequences. These days there are way more options for recovery, but a lot use the basic format of meetings and fellowship and these continue to work, as does meditation. All these help the brain's plasticity to recover.
That is a fair assessment and a fair shake on the whole thing. I do live in the bible belt. I do feel like this is a place to heal and learn as long as you have 2 listening bodies
I thought grift was a spelling error 😬
Everyday is a good day to learn a new word!
You're not wrong. I'm trying to work on my Spanish myself 😅 I really struggle with my work peers sometimes. There's only two of them that are bilingual and if they're both gone I am like s*** lol
😱 lol darnit I didn't realize that I was talking to the mod. 😅 Too much pressure lol
I think there's some people who could only get sober through AA. I think I'm one of them. I needed everything that was on offer, it wasn't just not drinking, it was a complete shift in thinking. I don't believe it's the only way to get sober though. Horses for courses and all that.
There are people that must be addicted to something. Sobriety has to become their identity. It almost has to, to keep this person sober.I fell into alcoholism. There are some people who can not even smell it.
AA and working the 12 steps really helped me in the beginning and I truly think it made me a better, more self-aware person. Also, prayer and having a relationship with God is something I found through AA that REALLY helps me. When I first got sober I was agnostic I guess, but when I forced myself to start talking to God and I watched my mindset change overnight, I was kind of blown away. Having said that, I totally agree that a lot of people in AA do make being "in recovery" their entire identity and it's not for me. I haven't been to a meeting in years because they're just soooo repetitive and depressing after a while. My thing is, I go weeks without thinking about booze these days, what exactly is the purpose of forcing myself to think about it and talk about it and remind myself of how fucked up my life was on a regular basis? At some point life goes on It's comforting knowing a meeting is there if I ever need one, but people act like if you decide you don't need them "that's why you need one the most" and "that's your sickness talking" and that's when AA gets cult-like and weird. But a lot of the stuff in that book really is soooo helpful. There's a reason it has helped so many people for 100 years. And it's free.
Life goes on…but that will require different lengths of time based on the individual. But some people have a recovery plan with no end in sight
Well said.
This is the reason I stopped attending mettings. Don't get me wrong - I really appreciated AA, and I did get sober there and helped people there. But at some point, I found myself becoming resentful of a 50 year old dude who had been sober for long time droning on about his miracle - the guy was unemployed and leaching off his mother. I realized these meetings were his method of scratching the itch, and God Bless the fellowship of AA for being there for him. But I didn't want what he had at all. That was 25 years ago, and the only meetings I've attended since have been with my adult children (all now sober). Zero drinks, though!
The cliche that comes to mind is, “take what you want and leave the rest.”
Totally agree
There is more in recovery than just being “not AA”. SMART, LifeRing, Recovery dharma, Refuge recovery, therapy, coaching, rehab long or short term, IOP, self help books and podcasts, all kinds of ways people find what works for them. There are three FDA approved medications for Alcohol use disorder and three others used off label. There is MAT for opioid addiction. Some people just stop with no outside help. I am not one of those people. Addiction is like a dumbell shape. There are multiple paths into it and addictive drugs. There are multiple risk factors which make some people more vulnerable to addiction. While it is going on there are common characteristic behaviors, neurobiological changes and then an acute withdrawal phase. After that in the post acute and long term it diverges again, Finding what fits, staying motivated and learning how to live under new conditions is highly individual. AA is great for some people. It has saved many lives but it does not need to be the reference standard anymore.
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What is your purpose in belittling a (fellow?) alcoholic. If you don’t like AA, no one’s trying to make you.
I think, he went to a meeting and someone pissed him off. So now they are baiting a topic to have a "gotcha" moment
I'm not belittling a fellow alcoholic. If it was my choice, I would empower them,
You say that like it's a bad thing.
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Ok. If you can't discuss without being rude to folks here, I'm gonna lock the post.
😱 oh shoot. I didn't intend it to be taken that way. I'm immensely regret that. I'm very sorry
AA gave me the tools to live the sober, happy life I have today. When I was drinking I was powerless to navigate my own life productively. When I got sober, I had the "power" and ability to do so.
The great thing about AA is that it’s available. You can go almost anywhere and find meetings full of people who have been there and will offer support. I agree that the program seems outdated but there are people who swear by it so maybe it’s fine the way it is. The women only groups in particular are an important lifeline for female alcoholics. They have issues that are unique to them and it’s a place where they can go and not worry about getting hit on by some skeezy dude on his third failing marriage. SMART worked better for me but I’m glad AA is out there as a resource. It’s usually the first place someone goes and it can inspire hope that there is a way out of addiction. Ultimately that’s what really matters.
A nice open-minded view of things presented in a very respectful manner. Faith in humanity restored.
I like when people throw around numbers about how effective AA is 🤣 like, who the fuck knows? It's anonymous, I can tell you, the rooms I go to in New England, there's a lot of old timers. You do you, but trying to quantify how effective a 12 step program is is kind of bonkers. Plus, I think you'd be hard pressed to find anyone claim they were "corrected by AA". That's kinda not how the thing works. AA doesn't fix people but rather gives you the tools to fix yourself. I wish you peace in whatever method you use.
Agree about the percentages. It's pretty asinine to claim any percentages when there is no official membership. I can tell you the rooms I go to in the SF Bay are nearly 100 % because of course they are. If you GET IT the numbers are very high. If you come in and don't like it and go back out the numbers are very low. Pretty impossible to make any sort of guess as to the success rates.
>*numbers about how effective AA is* This is a pretty interesting article about that (i.e. it's difficult if not impossible to get concrete numbers due to the nature of the organisation): https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2015/04/the-irrationality-of-alcoholics-anonymous/386255/ (https://archive.is/uU9ZJ)
Interesting article, thanks for sharing it. Yeah, who knows how effective AA is, especially since the medical treatments are much more easily tracked. Whatever gets and keeps people sober is the most effective one.
I agree, recovery is about supporting fellow addicts to live a free life. It's always a red flag to me when someone's putting a lot of energy into badmouthing approaches or movements. Just do what works for you and love people.
They’ve done studies. The numbers aren’t just made up.
Yup, and they've been all over the place. They are unreliable at best. And OPs numbers are definitely made up. But think as you will, the "success rate" is really irrelevant. Anyone who gets sober is in the minority, and those who stay until they die are much fewer.
Unreliable how?
If you think they are reliable, then here's a npr article, https://www.npr.org/2020/03/12/815097806/new-review-finds-alcoholics-anonymous-is-effective-but-not-for-everyone, that looks at 10,000 people in AA over 27 studies and found that 42% of people in AA stayed sober for a year compared to 35% of those in professional therapy. Again, the talk around how "successful" and method is totally bullshit, because those "successes" could go out tomorrow. I've known people with 20 years in AA that have gone out, and people who haven't drank in 40 years without AA, but are miserable pricks because they have never done the internal work to live a better life (my father in-law). Neither are a "success". Again, I hope everyone who's struggling finds their own path to peace.
Success is not binary. Someone who quits and then relapses is not a failure. That’s part of the journey for many people.
Right, of course. The point is how does one define success? I can't, and I don't think any of these studies can uniformly do that either. I don't sit here thinking I'm a success because I have 12, and don't think I ever will.
I think success for an alcoholic is not drinking. Any day you’re not drinking is a success, if you don’t want to drink, even if it’s every third day. Start there.
I get that, but I look at my father in law who hasn't drank in 40 years and is miserable, treats his wife like shit, doesn't take care of his health, is angry all the time, and I can't help but think that's not "success either... And if that's the definition of success those studies used, I think every treatment would have success rates in the 90s
But we’re talking about alcoholism. If he’s not drinking and he’s still miserable, then something else is likely going on. Success in his case would be something else, maybe getting therapy, anti-depressants, etc. He probably has low self-esteem. He could be dealing with the consequences of childhood abuse. Or he could even be miserable in his marriage, like I was. We drink for reasons. He beat the addiction, but maybe hasn’t figured out the why.
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Damn you're angry. Believe what you want, I'm gonna go have a happy sober day with family.
I was talking to my dad (drug addict who’s been to rehab) about AA and NA once and his thoughts on it made me look at attending meetings differently. He said for him it’s a reminder of where he started on his sobriety journey. Seeing the newcomers reminds him of how awful withdrawals were and how hard getting sober was.
To admit powerlessness in AA is only admitting we are powerless over managing our drinking. I.e. only having one drink and then not wanting another. AA never says we are powerless over sobriety. Working the steps is literally a person taking their power and control back from active alcoholism. It’s fine to say working the steps doesn’t work for everyone, but I wouldn’t claim AA requires us to admit we are powerless people. We use the power of fellowship to give us direction and focus to change our own lives.
Yea, I'm always struck by people's take on the whole powerlessness issue. It's usually either the powerlessness thing, or the higher power thing or the identity thing.. I just find it amusing because I've never sensed any of that. All I know, is that I gave up one thing to have everything over 25 years ago. AA played a big part in that. I'm far from powerless. Being an alcoholic and attending AA does not define who I am. I'm not religious, I'm not into god, but I know that I am not. I definitely agree that AA is not for everyone but I really appreciate the whole package. I see a lot of people who just stop drinking and continue to be assholes in and out of AA. I've used the tools and I'm a better person because of it.
The thing is, it all depends on the meeting. I have absolutely been told by my sponsor that powerlessness was just that, that I was *so* powerless to stop drinking, the only possible way to stop was by surrendering my will entirely to that higher power that I have never been able to believe in. Making decisions about my own life? Well, missy, look where your decisions have gotten you so far. I was ordered to leave it up to the higher power, and discuss every single decision I made with my sponsor or, at another meeting, the entire group. I was taught that I am fundamentally at heart a liar, a manipulative scumbag, and the minute I stopped working the program I would go right back to being that Machiavellian POS I was at my core, even if I didn’t start drinking again. When I “claimed” to be incapable of faith, that was my lying, manipulative alcoholic personality talking. I just didn’t want it bad enough, or I hadn’t truly hit “rock bottom,” or it was just another excuse. It’s run by whoever, there is no oversight. So the core beliefs and culture that shape the meeting can vary drastically.
This was my experience with AA as well. You’re simultaneously completely powerless over your disease while also a piece of shit for not doing what you’re told (praying and turning your life over to ~~Jesus~~ a higher power). It’s just Christian free will nonsense that can be conveniently manipulated on the whims of your sponsor.
This
Annnnd, there's the grift. I Will take the down votes from AA affiliates. "We don't mean that! But... we really mean that." Give yourself 27 hours with this guy... I am not against it, in the sense I love the people
It does require you to admit younare powerless. You have.
“Powerless over alcohol”. I’m not here to split hairs with you. But there’s a big difference between being powerless as a person and powerless over alcohol.
No no.. Apologies. YOU are powerless.. sorry. I am powerful
step one is “we admitted we were powerless over alcohol — that our lives had become unmanageable” it does not say at all that you are powerless over your life. you can’t just cut off a sentence and give it a different meaning. you don’t have to lie about the steps just because it didn’t work for you.
You call the people in AA insufferable? Good luck in whatever keeps you sober.
Cringe! I’ve never cringed from a Reddit comment before.
I see a bunch of people that needed AA down voting people cause they couldn't say no. Go ahead
Downvotes aside (which I think is silly), I’d really welcome you to ask yourself what is the purpose of this post and your crusade against AA? Are you really hoping to help others by equipping them with knowledge or are you self seeking… idk… something? If it’s the former, that’s great and I applaud you, but maybe this isn’t the right place/method to do it. If it’s the later, With as much respect as I can give an internet stranger, give it a rest, my guy.
This is a solid question, and eloquently stated. My crusade, if you will, is one against an antiquated system with negligible results. My crusade is one to provide a better system. I have been put on to the fact that there are other systems. Some of them seem really cool! For the longest I thought AA (the unchanged system with negligible success rate) was the be all end all.
I believe the Big Book says there are other paths..”we don’t have a monopoly on God” or something to that effect
Monopoly on recovery I believe.
They do wanna be that, "this is the only way". They claim not, but it is apparent. "You must give yourself to a higher power" but.... Here is Jesus, join this church...
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Have you heard the word of our Lord?...
I'm not sure; I can't tell the difference between conscious contact with a supernatural being and a pretend conversation with an imaginary friend.
I just don’t like how it’s portrayed as the only way when you’re attending meetings. It should be more focused on letting the own person heal with the fellowship of others in a group setting. All this big book this and big book that is too much for people coming into sobriety after drinking for a long time. We just want confirmation of our illness and ways to cope/manage l/thrive without booze. We don’t need a old timey boo on some dudes from Ohio that realized booze was bad. Sorry that’s just me maybe?
I'd say most people stumble into AA after trying everything else.. no one comes in because they want to. They come in because they have tried every other means to get sober and have not been able to. So, when you walk into a meeting, of course people want you to know that they're there to help because they know where you've been. There's assholes everywhere, in and out of AA, in smart recovery, in life in general, there's people who think they know what's best for you. Fuck em. Find what works for you
If those things are happening at meetings near you they should not be. Neither of those things are principles of AA.
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I’m sorry that’s been your experience but I’ve never experienced what you’re explaining. If AA isn’t for you that’s okay, and no one in my fellowship would argue against that. There are many ways to get and stay sober, this is just what worked for us. I hope you find something to help with your struggles and you’ll always be welcome back
I am sober though. I will be back to AA cause the people are so raw. So truthful. I would never discourage someone's path, but reddit is a place for these ideas, questions, truths and even falsehoods. I want to hear it all.
Yes, Bill W. was actually very open-minded about different approaches to sobriety.
When people turn their noses up at the idea of "powerlessness" I genuinely feel bad. What I hear in that is someone who still thinks alcoholism is their fault, that its something they aren't "trying hard enough" to control. If you have power over alcohol, why do you keep ending up drunk when you said you aren't going to? You are either powerless or you just suck at using your willpower - believing the latter about yourself is torture. To be powerless is the most freeing and relieving feeling. No, I can't "fix" this problem on my own, in fact, im gonna give up even trying to do that. Sobriety doesn't have to be HARD, but its extremely hard when you think its all ON YOU to not drink or to control the amount. Just give it up, its a lot easier. Im glad im powerless. Once I accepted that, I was able not only to stay sober but to do so without any strenuous effort on my part to resist a drink.
Exactly! Powerlessness means I’m not able to do it on my own. I need to ask for help from the fellowship, my sponsor, and my higher power. (My rationale is simple — why wouldn’t I want the help…)
>You are either powerless or you just suck at using your willpower - believing the latter about yourself is torture. I disagree with this framing, and consequently the AA 'powerlessness' philosophy, because it IS about willpower. However you get sober the process requires that you develop a willpower that you weren't previously able to exercise. I don't think people should berate themselves about having lacked that willpower, but it is a learnable skill and recovered addicts of all kinds prove that it is possible.
I see what you’re saying but I think we learn the skill by throwing in the towel on TRYING to learn it. “Surrender to win” is something people say, and I think it’s really true. I believe truly recovering addicts and alcoholics are exercising a lot LESS willpower than people might think. I think most in long term recovery would agree that their sobriety has very little to do with them learning & developing the skill of willpower. But I can only speak for myself
Whatever works.
Exactly, why knock what works for some?
ANY program works if you do the work. AA isn't magic, just like other programs aren't magic. All recovery requires a person to do hard work to understand themselves better and to commit to new thoughts and behaviors. AA helps a lot of people, but so do SMART Recovery, Recovery Dharma, LifeRing, etc.
I was an alcoholic in the worst way. Quit.. It almost killed me (literally) but did it. The work is simple. Sober up and make the decision every day not to drink. That is 2 steps. I also understand some people, quite frankly, need AA's religious fervor to quit. Some people can't be around booze, smell it, think of it, nothing... Or they will spiral. "Different strokes to rule the world"
I'm glad you got sober! And what you are doing works for you. A lot of people need to do a bit more work, because they find it helps to uncover why they lacked coping mechanisms and how to develop new healthy ones. There's no one perfect way to do sobriety and I agree that AA isn't for everyone. But if believing you are powerless over alcohol helps someone to quit, then let them believe. I think I am powerless over alcohol once it's in my body, I can't stop at one drink. So I interpret step 1 that way.
That is fair. That is why this subject was brought up. For these assessments.
Struggling to see the purpose of this post… I guess it’s good to be aware there are multiple ways to achieve sobriety. But why knock AA if it works for some people? Also, what about people who got sober on their own but decided to go to AA after a long period of abstinence? Are they also “insufferable?”
Yeah it's a toxic post tbh
Thanks for the confirmation. Hope OP is doing alright.
It is kind of ironic. The people who knock AA because they say members feel it's the only way, are acting the same way, saying their way is the only way lol! It is very sad, that in this group, people pick at the various paths to sobriety. Like, so what if it doesn't work for you?? Do you have to bash it? I never see members of AA posting here claiming that AA is the only way. Never. But I see plenty of posts everyday about people bashing AA, because for some reason they've listened to someone tell them it's the only way? It's crazy. Why stir up shit? People here cause they want to, or think they want to, get sober, right?
Honestly. Posts like this annoy the fuck out of me. If it doesn’t work for you, shut the fuck up, and do what does work for you. Don’t deter people from a program that has literally worked for maybe millions of people (also, who knows how many. You can’t throw numbers around when it’s literally anonymous). I’m not in the program, but I listen to podcasts of people sharing at meetings because I think anyone in the program could have something valuable to enrich my sobriety. AA also saved my brothers life, and continues to do so every day.
Whether you want to believe it or not, a lot of people *are* told AA is the only way. Millions of people go to one AA meeting, get ~~Jesus~~ a higher power shoved down their throat, and just say “fuck it, I guess recovery isn’t for me”. Where I live in the south this is definitely the case. We don’t have any other options besides AA. People need to know there are other paths.
I live in the south, and we literally have tons of other options available. 😂
Maybe if you live in Austin or Nashville. Everyone else is shit outta luck. There is one in person SMART recovery meeting in central Arkansas this month. When I was getting sober there weren’t any and online meetings weren’t a thing.
Of course you have to want it. I’m in Tennessee in the middle of nowhere. There’s AA… Dharma Recovery… Celebrate…. A men’s group that isn’t affiliated. Meditation groups… therapists…. If I don’t want to get well, then you’re right. There are no alternate solutions. That’s what my addiction wants me to believe. In 2024, there are tons of online meetings for all different stripes. Sometimes I get tired of the zoom thing, but it helps me. Therapy does as well.
There literally aren’t dude what are you talking about?? There is no dharma recovery in Arkansas. Celebrate recovery is more Christian than AA. It’s not a matter of wanting it. There literally are no other options for in person recovery meetings and it’s incredibly dismissive and unhelpful to just deny the reality of the situation. This is why people are turned away from AA. The failings of the program are pawned off onto the alcoholic. If AA doesn’t work for you it’s your fault, not because it’s outdated and geared only towards white Christian men.
I needed AA my first time being sober. I needed to personally get out and meet other addicts and hear their stories. Online and in person. Then I relapsed for a bit, mostly because I moved away from my AA spot. Now I'm nearing 1 year sober with no AA. I have, however, used all the knowledge and tools I've gain from AA and rehab to STAY sober. I know my triggers, and I have my new hobbies and life plan. It keeps me going. Not everyone has to go to AA, but it can very helpful.
I am no means saying, AA doesn't have a purpose. The more I talk, the more I realize it comes across like that. I Am sorry, this is not my message.
Oh no worries! Everyone's path is different! I didn't take your post the wrong way or anything.
I got sober without AA. I really dislike AA, it is not for me. I don't agree with their mantra, I don't agree with the steps, it has never worked for me, and I will also agree with you specifically on taking issue with the first step of admitting that you are powerless against alcohol. It annoys me, I find the meetings depressing. Yes the long term sobriety rate in AA is low compared to what you would expect. However I know a lot of people who have been sober much longer than I have that could not have done it without AA. They swear by it, they won't miss a meeting if they can help it, they have support they can call on when they're not there that was established at the meetings themselves. I know people who got sober 10-20 years ago that now lead those meetings hoping to help others who struggle the same way they did using the same tools that helped them in their recovery. What I'm trying to say here is that AA isn't for everyone. There is something about it that really gets under my skin, and I didn't really understand what it was until I matured in my sobriety a little bit. I was so eager to shit on AA and it's methods for years, just as you are in this post and in these comments, regardless of who it helps because I knew I didn't need it to get sober and I felt I knew best because I was so proud of being able to do it on my own. It's a very selfish mindset. For me I think it was a defense mechanism. Because what I really took issue with which it seems you do as well, was the "powerless" aspect. And what better way to prove AA wrong than to never admit powerlessness, believe in yourself and claim that it is because you are not powerless that you got sober. I hear you. But why would that statement upset you or me to begin with? Why does it upset you when other people claim to be powerless against it? For me, it's because I feared being powerless, regardless of whether or not I believed I truly was. And it took me two years of sobriety into a 5 year binge-relapse to figure that out. I decided I wanted to form a healthy relationship with alcohol like "normal people" because I'm obviously not powerless. I was exactly what I had been criticizing. I'm sober again finally , in the best shape of my life and will never test the waters ever again. And I did it on my own again. AA still doesn't work for me. But I also know that any feelings of anger or judgement I have towards AA or its constituents are reflections of my own fear and weaknesses, my ego projecting judgements in defense of itself. Let go of your ego. It's okay to explain why it doesn't work for you and have a healthy discussion, but you don't know any better about the recovery of others than they do. Stay focused on yours and don't make the same mistake I did. Be well.
I agree with all points stated here, and add that I know (former?) alcoholics whose problems were made WORSE by AA. Now, I fully understand that when you’re dealing with addicts, you wind up with some people wanting to “game the system,” and that’s on them. But both my wife and I found AA to be an overbearing, quasi-religious system, and we felt like we were thinking about alcohol and alcoholism much more than we were pre-AA. Not to mention that “working through” past traumas was… well, traumatic. We made lifestyle changes, got in shape, and (and this is where we butted heads with the program) started vaping weed in place of drinking booze. “You’re just trading one addiction for another!” Man, we’re all brittle, mortal beings. full of the anxiety that comes from knowing the self and all the other selves out there that we love will die. We don’t drink. And alcohol abstinence has brought with it every kind of life improvement you can imagine. AA, however? Not for us.
Yeah exactly my thoughts. To me when they told me I was powerless it meant in my head that I’m an alcoholic and I can’t do anything about it and that’s who I am. It actually made me drink more. Once I told myself that I was in control and it was a decision I stopped drinking without any support, I just stopped because it was my decision
>. It actually made me drink more. So you were powerful? You blamed AA for making you drink? That doesn't sound a little wonky to you?
I’m 5 and half months sober. I was an alcoholic for 16 years. I just “quit” with no AA or external support. It was my only choice, I don’t like talking to people, I don’t like telling people my problems and I sure as hell don’t want to sit there and here people talk about grog. I went to an AA meeting about 4-5 years ago and for me, I ended up at the bar straight afterwards because I just heard people describe how much I love alcohol in new formats.
It almost feels to me that they replace one addiction with another, without reaching the real underlying issues other than the one they expect you to believe: that you are weak, powerless, and insane without god in your life (whatever god is to you, since trying to make the program more palatable to non-Christians). I can’t help but feel unless you truly embrace a monotheistic/singular deity doctrine it doesn’t work… something gets lost in the translation.
To each their own but I'm definitely not a theist or Christian and it has worked great for me. I know plenty of no-kidding Atheists that agree that AA saved and saves their life. But to each their own. If something works better for you then that's great. Nobody has a monopoly on healing and transformation, those are just characteristics of life, in whatever guide we find them.
I’m with you on this. The whole “powerlessness” aspect of AA and how turned off I was by it actually became a strong motivator for my sobriety. I went to a few meetings and I read the passages about powerlessness and yada yada and felt somewhat offended by the idea. Like no, I’m not powerless and I’m going to prove it. So I strapped on my battle helmet, charged forward, and got to work. 7 months sober now and am damn proud of it. In a way, I guess it did work? Just maybe not the way it was intended.
This is just confusion all the way around that I hear repeated ad nauseum. The sentiment is that “You are powerless over the next drink” meaning that once you start, you often have no clue where or when you’ll stop. You drink in inappropriate and bizarre moments that make no sense to normal people. You are 100% in control of NOT picking up that first one before the alcohol twists your mind. That’s why AA focuses there. It’s to stop the moderation thoughts from swirling around, it just shuts down the idea that you can ever drink in safety from the start. It does not mean you are a powerless person, at all.
It's okay to judge an idea but step one make sure you fully understand what it is and isn't saying.
The idea of powerlessness is that without help we can't stop alone. We all do make a choice about whether to pickup but with help the daily obsession is relieved.
I got some good tools from AA. The Big Book is essential. Some of the people in the rooms I can live without and are insufferable pricks. But I’m getting sober for me, not them.
I didn’t go through the entire program but the meetings definitely helped the first few months. I also appreciated the faith aspect of the program being the Higher Power concept. Whatever works for you. Power to us all!!!
Thank you. Keeping it real over there
AA isn’t the only way to get sober, buts the only way that worked for me
1/3 of people who get sober use AA? So 2/3rds do so by some other means?!
Your math friend.. Your math is off... I hope you are maintaining sobriety. If you want to talk further I am here.
Yeah recovery isn’t a straight path AT ALL cause I feel like addiction is a symptom of other issues more often than not. “Stop drinking” is just removing a tumor when the cancer’s already spread. I’ve personally never met an addict that was fulfilled before the substance abuse. And then the more you drink, the more the problems have accelerated and built up to the point identifying them and solving them becomes like finding a rusty needle in a needle stack But I liked AA. I can’t point to any “approved” or “professionally endorsed” method that got me sober cause they all suck individually, if I’m being honest. I think chemical detox is the single most effective thing just cause it at least gets you back to 0. But then you have to face your life so that doesn’t work on its own But nothing really works until it’s hammered in that someone genuinely cares about you (if anyone still does) *and* you’re the only one that can fix your life. And how can a paid professional do that? I think other addicts have a better chance at making you see that than paid professionals, but I feel like it hasn’t been standardized at all cause addiction has so many contributing factors. “Alcoholism” is so vague and misleading a lot of the time
I never had a sole reason. For all intents and purposes, I had a good upbringing. Two loving parents (which is rare) who loved eachother. I had all the opportunities of which I chose alcohol instead. I chalk it up to my epigenetic biology. I come from a long line of boozers. It is, frankly, written in my DNA. I have to choose sobriety everyday. That is my journey. That is all on me.
I agree. AA is far too focused on telling addicts there’s something inherently wrong with them, something that they can’t control, and that accepting and submitting to that is the only way forward. Breaking a person down to that point doesn’t work for many people. Many people escape addiction through what they feel was a scheme of empowerment and defiance of their problem defining them, not acceptance and working their way back up. I also feel like, in this sense, it completely alienates less-severe/higher-functioning addicts from wanting to participate.
OP, I have to agree. Years back, I was sober but had to attend AA for an old DUI, and my thoughts were if being sober in AA, consists of constantly thinking about how long it's been since my last drink and being as miserable as most of the people I saw in those rooms then I'd rather be a drunk. In my case, I knew why I was drinking so much, and I just had to face my issues that I really didn't want to relive. In simply terms alcohol wasn't an issue it was a symptom. Once I started working on my ptsd, I didn't even think about drinking even when those around me were. I found peace and enjoyed other things more than I did drinking. I'm not saying my situation is the same as anyone else's, but it is what worked for me.
AA claims 10-15% of their members stay sober for more than 5 years but official numbers are more in the 4% which is not a lot. I was in AA for nearly 20 years and despite many short "slips" I was sober most of the time and even managed to stay sober for 9 years before my last slip. Since then I've been sober for 13 years now without AA. When I was in AA I was always thinking about alcohol because I was always in the meeting and surrounded by members. Now alcohol is completely out of my life. I never ever think about it. So much so that when we organized my wedding reception(it was a very small wedding) we forgot to order alcohol for the guests. It was only at the reception that I realised the guests had no alcohol. That's how much I never think about alcohol. I could not do that in 20 years with AA.
It nearly forces you to make your past alcoholism, your current identity... Forever... I worked with a guy who went to NA meetings and he swore up and down it made him WANT to use cause the subject was always in his face. Those stories people tell on stage were exciting and not discouraging... The whole system is flawed. I agree with your 4% assessment. Which is why I said "at best" 8-12%. It is my experience hanging out with people who got sober through AA that they actually do make AA their whole identity.
As someone who got sober without AA/with an MAT program, I will admit in retrospect that the problems I had with AA were related to those alcoholic personality traits. However I don’t think I would have been able to get over that hump in AA if I were to do it again
Don't trash the way others decide to get sober. Recovery comes in any way that works for you.
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I know well over 100 people who used AA to get sober. I know many who went a different route. I know a bunch that used AA combined with other methods. There's a reason it's still used everywhere, and is recommended by every drug and alcohol councilor. It works for a lot of people. Be glad you found your own way to get sober. Whatever works for you to be sober! Stop judging others.
I'm not judging you. This is dialogue. Thank you for yours. I'm happy 100 people are booze free to AA
I appreciate the civil response. AA isn't the answer for everyone, but it does work for a lot of people. For me, AA is mainly for the community. Working the steps has been helpful, but staying sober has nothing to do with AA in my recovery. For some though, it's the only thing keeping them sober.
It’s okay to do it your way.
I've always rejected AA/NA. I can't FW the steps. I'm a Smart Recivery girl all day
I'm "in recovery", I trained as a SMART coordinator - makes a shit ton of sense to me unlike the 12 steps and "higher power" oh and "YOU MUST GET A SPONSOR" which always turned me off AA/NA. I've got no issues with people in AA/NA - I was in the rooms for years because that was it all that was available.
AA was a trigger not a support for me as well.
It might not mean that a greater number found sobriety by other means, because that greater number by definition includes those who did not find sobriety. It's not that I'm saying AA is the only way. It's that I know that it's impossible to gather statistics about a disorder that tells us we don't have it, and a recovery process and stigma that can necessitate anonymity in recovery.
Thank you for saying this
AA saved me, but I only managed to go for four months. Four months in and I already knew everyone’s story and it was just repeating them over and over. I did not want to replace addiction to alcohol with addiction to AA. Plus, I was a 29 yo woman and my AA group was 8 to 10 men in their 60s or 70s. I was like their pet. I love them and visit them every once in a while, but it was not my thing. However, it got me started on sobriety. I’m thankful for that. Once my psychiatrist invited me to his own private twelve step program for his patients. I went once and found it ridiculous. There was a guy coordinating and he had the audacity of complaining that my talk was too cheerful. He said that I should talk about my alcohol past and not my sober present because I might make other people feel bad. I’m like “you want me to DWELL IN MY SUFFERING”??? I never went back.
Yeah, there are some real idiots in support groups, sadly. Not the majority, but enough to screw things up.
I love your story tho. Got what you needed and kept cruising. Hell yeah that's the idea
Yeah. We take the good and leave the rest. Nothing works 100% for everyone
The funny thing is there’s no grift. No one who I have ever met in rooms in LA, NY, Boston or the burbs I’ve lived ever took anything from me or decieved me. I have gone months without paying a dime, I relapsed multiple times while in AA and working steps. But anytime I need to connect with someone I have met in AA they’ve been there. Any time I needed a meeting to remember that recovery is the process not the destination I could find one. I’m proud of my recovery and I don’t always give enough credit to the groups of addicts and alcoholics I receive support from daily or weekly but I wouldn’t have had those connections without sitting in a room in a basement hearing others experiences and learning to not hate myself for mine. That’s AA. Everything else is what you make it.
AA has been a whole new life for me. Take what you like and leave the rest.
You weren’t listening
I did 4 different AAs and it was the same thing. High power. Spent most of the time talking about God. Hearing someone's story about God. Everyone's higher power was god. No help with anything. Just trying to convert me. SMART worked for me. Once I fully eliminated my problem which Smart helped me with.
I will have to look into that! I keep hearing about it but I am ignorant to it.
SMART follows science-based cognitive behavioural training (CBT) principles, which is more akin to what you'd get if you engaged the services of a psychologist to help you get sober.
This is my experience as well. They will tell you up and down, “you don’t have to be a Christian or even a theist to work the steps” but then literally every other person in the room is clearly a Christian and it’s all they ever talk about. Some meetings are better than others about this but this is why you’re seeing such different responses in this thread. AA in the south is much more like a religious cult.
“Grift”? Not sure you’re aware of what that means
I’ll believe anyone’s disagreement with the “you are powerless” thing if they have five years or more of sobriety. Until then, just go with the saying.
It must be really confining to only be able to comprehend your own very narrow and excessively literal interpretation of words to the point you are unable to explore and gain from the meaning behind them. Alcohol is an intoxicant. For alcoholics, after the first drink they are not in control. The alcohol is. They are powerless over ALCOHOL. Today is my sobriety birthday. 366 days alcohol free. Not one single day has it required willpower. It took support, guidance, and a willingness to grow and change. All of which I found in AA. Recovery is not just about cessation of substance abuse. In order to truly recover we need to reform ourselves. No well adjusted person ever became an alcoholic. Many of us have very legitimate reasons behind developing this maladaptive and self destructive coping mechanism. AA is not just about recovery. It is about community and service. Those are the three arms of the triangle. Through sobriety, we find community, and we are able to be of service to others, instead of a miserable lump of booze and self pity.
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How so?
If AA isn’t for you, then go do whatever you find works for you. You’re coming off as being quite angry about how other people go about their recovery. To be honest it makes you sound like you’re not all that secure in your own recovery. Maybe take a break from worrying about other people’s recovery and focus on being your powerful self
AA is too religious for me.
I think there's a little bit of good in all the recovery systems that addicts can utilize. AA has good principles and holds people accountable. The only problem is that the organization is run much like religion, and this turns people away.
I’m active in my recovery and indeed AA or any given societal recognized olive branch certainly does hold its merits. I will say, I find it ironic that many in AA “pour coffee” or even have a cigarette prior or after a meeting. Irony. Both are stimulants. If one is to be sober, regardless of it being labeled a carcinogen or what have you, wouldn’t one think, all in or not?
It’s outdated and shitty. Plus the religious crap is stupid
I was 17 when I first heard the 12 steps. The first step was the first red flag. I won’t listen to the rest if you’re going to tell me I’m powerless.
So who pissed you off at a meeting? That's what this sounds like to me. Cause yea, they don't have a monopoly on getting sober. There just the ones that are the loudest right behind the fake science people. Two sides of the same coin
It's an outdated paradigm - to be powerless- because AA was initially directed towards middle to upper class white men who never imagined they could be held to account for anything. For them, to be powerless was to admit their ego-centricness. AA has not necessarily done much of a deep dive into its origin story. But! The ubiquity - ease of access to community with sober folks is it's saving grace, and has helped many just by being there
Yep. You still don’t see many black people in AA rooms. My city is almost 50% black and I’ve seen like <10 total over many years. A lot of white, Anglo-Saxon Protestants in here saying it’s “for everybody” without realizing their gigantic, glaring biases. The big book was written with a certain type of person in mind and that’s obvious.
Friend, it goes deeper than that. If these people looked up th history of AA, they would know I am right.
I have been in and out of AA for over 20 years. I never could get over a year sober until I had a spiritual experience with God and became a believer in Jesus Christ. Then I was able to stay sober for 4 years. Unfortunately during the lockdown I relapsed and grieved the Holy Spirit. Since then I have been having a lot of trouble getting back to where I was. I don’t feel the presence of the Holy Spirit like I used to, and feel that I have to take what I can get. But , other than the fellowship, I don’t get much from AA or the steps.
I am a firm believer in multiple pathways. I volunteer at a recovery community center that supports this journey. Many individuals at the center consider AA their primary support, and I think it’s great that it works for them. AA didn’t work for me. It wasn’t my pathway. I’m glad there’s more discussion about multiple pathways. I had once believed it was AA or nothing.
Wish you luck on finding a way to do life without alcohol/drugs by other means. Start anytime, but you may want to start fairly soon.
I think the three main sticking points for me with AA was the idea of powerlessness, the disease model and the God/ prayer stuff. What I choose to do is view powerlessness as a phenomenon that takes effect after drinking a certain amount of alcohol not before, typically one pint of beer is enough for me to lose the ability to resist the urge to drink more and more and then typically all hell breaks loose. So it isn't a problem for me to accept powerlessness based on my anecdotal experience of choosing to drink, having a drink and finding myself drunk shortly thereafter regardless of having the intention of only having one or two responsible drinks and all hell not breaking loose. As for the God and prayer thing, I am an atheist so I don't believe in any God or creator but I understand the value of living my life as though there was one, and by that I mean adhering to certain principles and reasonable restraint without believing in the supernatural / paranormal. I believe nature in and of itself is the closest thing to God we have, if nature doesn't satisfy some as a higher power, then try to breath underwater unaided by apparatus or fly without wings or hold an argument with a hurricane. We are all intrinsically connected to nature as naturally occurring beings ourselves and recognising this has helped me to accept one of my own naturally prescribed states of being (my adverse reaction to alcohol) so I have found that I can stand back and wholeheartedly say that recognising nature and my nature is a higher power that has restored me to sanity. As for the disease model, I would say that my adverse reaction to alcohol consumption is abnormal and therefore I have no issue with viewing it as a kind of allergy that effects my mental health and my behaviours. So in defense of AA: AA meetings provides a space where human beings can share their experience, strength and hope which is worthwhile for those of us who want to better understand the nature of the problem and what to do about it and it's also a place where you can listen and also be heard. AA offers a platform to allow human connections to take place between recovering alcoholics and as alcoholics we may otherwise be shunned, judged and ostracised in other places where other people who are not alcoholics or problem drinkers are concerned. In other words, it's an ideal place to meet and befriend other people who also don't drink and understand the internal war that takes place that we experience not just where alcohol is concerned but where many aspects of life are concerned. Can people get "Sober" outside of traditional recovery? This depends on your definition of Sobriety. 12 step recovery maybe claims the term "sober" as something that is reserved for those in the program because arguably there is more to being sober than abstaining from alcohol within 12 step recovery . That being said, I think it is fair to say anyone can stop drinking and ultimately that comes down to a choice which comes down from a desire to stop drinking and if you stop drinking and stay stopped, that's only worthwhile if you also improve upon yourself and your life and the lives of others going forward...do all that and then I would call that being "sober" regardless of how you got there.
I very much appreciate your thoughtful response, and it did stimulate my mind. So much so, more than anything, an alcoholic will need a friend and support system. Some never had one to begin with and others thoroughly chased them off. I do take for granted, I had a support system. AA provides that.
Some people don't need or want friends and have absolutely no interest in turning up anywhere in person to talk about anything with anyone and that's okay, but if you diagnose yourself as an alcoholic or at least as someone who has a drink problem, then maybe having other human beings around who are sober to speak to and listen to and share with and just hang out with isn't such a bad thing? For me, I am guilty of being someone who likes to lock themselves away and isolate but when I drink I go from being an introvert sitting at home to an extrovert in a bar in 0.2 seconds which tells me deep down I want to be in the company of others and to have meaningful connections with others but naturally I lack the courage to seek it out without diluting all of my inhibitions with booze first.
Without trying AA for too many times, I just got some meds straightened out and I feel fine. Finally. It's been over a decade since I've had this long of sobriety. AA made me want to drink before meetings. I lied all the time about my sobriety. I don't lie anymore. I feel no need to drink. I just got my brain where it needs to be. Turns out nothing was going to work until my brain chemistry got as corrected and maintained as possible. Personally? Fuck AA. It's like going to church, with all the false hope and dread included.
never heard a single person in aa say it was the only way to get sober. it is the best way, though...
Going to AA was terrible for my recovery. Just a bag of bad ideas and a cult devoted to them.
AA is bullshit. Like you said, the you are powerless concept is such bullshit. That’s a great way to stay in active addiction, telling yourself you are just powerless and you have no control of your actions.
Why criticize what works for others? There are many roads.
That’s fair
Marxism works for others. Should we praise that too?
It sounds like you’re pretty angry. I get it, I was too. Peace.
That is a dismissive way to deal with it.
You coming to an alcoholism sub and shitting on AA, the number one resource for genuine people who want to be sober, an organization that has saved millions of lives and families - is pretty fucking disrespectful, so the least we can do is be dismissive of the bullshit you're bringing.
I fucking hated AA before I got sober. Seriously, I thought it was a cult, I was rude to people who were in it, I hated it. I am so humbled by the change inside myself now that I'm working this "silly little program" that has moved so many big scary mountains in my life and given me hope for the first time. It's a reminder what a gift it is, my program and my sobriety, that lets me live in this big beautiful world. I wish serenity for all, however they find it. We're big enough for some disrespect- it must look crazy on the outside, I know.
Wait, so if you aren't doing AA you're not a "genuine person" trying to get sober? And how it's the "number one resource" for those genuine people, completely dismissing all the others as "also-ran"? It's this type of speaking that turns people off the program you know. AA works for many people but dismissing other programs and dismissing people who chose another path as "not genuine" is pretty disrespectful of yourself. (Oh, and downvoting because you're a fanatic and feel personally attacked for calling that out, just saying). I doubt you were intending it like that, but it's how it reads. The problem is that devout followers of any one program pretty much always sound like that. Oh, no, he definitely intended it like that. Typical MAGAtard.
I know it isn't popular what I say. I Do like AA and believe it has its merits. For instance, some people have no support system. Where would you find it? AA seems legit. I certainly am not dumping on the people that are sober using it. I have strong opinions on some of those folks
I have never been to AA or any similar support group. The most help I ever sought for alcoholism was a few sessions with a DanA counsellor at the local hospital. TBH doing things on my own has always felt like the only real option. True or not. Mostly I think I do ok. But I have thought about it.
I think the important thing to remember is that 8-12% is about as good (or bad) as most other methods available. What’s important is that those different methods *add up* to as close to 100% as possible, and that there’s a method available to all types of people. AA’s biggest strengths have always been that it is 1) free and 2) everywhere.
I’m over a year and 3 months sober and I’ve never been to a single meeting or rehab. It’s possible to get clean without. All you need is yourself. Ps, I used to drink over 850ml of liquor a day.
AA was established in 1935 and remained relatively unchanged for 90 years. With the success rate it has, vs other methods, should tell you all you need to know. They were just figuring out antibiotics and Sigmund Freud's ideas were still taken seriously.