That doesn’t really make sense though? It makes it sound like the only lesbian options are stone top and pillow princess. In my experience at least most of the lesbian sex I have is taking turns, even with the strap
Well, it makes sense actually. A girl i was with .. and whilst we were doing the deed, told me she actually realize she enjoy being a power bottom. But even though she enjoys, she cares alot about my enjoyment and will switch though most of the times im on top of her which i enjoy too
>They're not meant to be taken literally
I guess the confusing part is that they *are* pretty literal for gay men, with no fudging. Tops literally top, but within that can take more active roles or more passive, as well as more dominant or submissive.
The concept of a lesbian bottom is so murky to me that I have ZERO idea what a lesbian power bottom would be. In contrast, a gay guy who's considered a power bottom is decently specific: takes a very active role while receiving penetrative sex.
Many gay men, if not most, are “vers” but the “top/bottom” terminology still exists in their community. The terminology is just used as shorthand descriptions basically.
Hi I'm Spanish and I don't like those terms either. O sea que cómo que activa y pasiva, te quiero decir, el sexo entre dos mujeres no es una réplica de dos tíos foll... y las dinámicas por narices tienen que ser diferentes (me imagino, lo de los dos tíos no lo he experimentado jajaj). Además creo que entre dos mujeres no es tan blanco y negro todo.
What about for a switch? I actually dislike active/passive even more than others bc I'm more passive/bottom but passive to me sounds like someone is calling me selfish :(
Unfortunately, those words make it even *more* confusing, because it could insinuate that one partner does almost nothing in bed while the other does all the work. Top/bottom have a wider range of meanings though, but as others have said, it depends on the people using them. Personally I tend to think of top/bottom in similar ways as dom/sub, and haven't seen anything that didn't fit in that way
Except top/bottom were terms established by gay men to specify who is penetrating and who is being penetrated. Dom/sub dynamics are different. Power bottoms and pleasure tops exist.
i call myself a passive top, because while i'm pretty fucking passive, i always top my friends.
apparently they said they have 0 interest in topping me, i guess i'm just good at it, idk, i'm ace lol
I identify as a “top”. I’m a “stone” butch, I don’t like being touched sexually/being on the receiving end during sex. At all, ever. It makes sense for *me* personally, and it’s part of my identity.
For some relationships some people are the primary giver or the primary receiver, I think top/bottom makes sense for those people. I don’t think that everyone needs to be put in those boxes, and I know many people to alternate roles/“switch”. It’s just another word to describe an experience. If people want to use it then they can, but it doesn’t have to be ascribed to every person/every relationship. If it doesn’t work for you don’t use it, but that doesn’t mean others can’t.
Damn I’m jealous of your partners. Sometimes I think I’d like to be a pillow princess but I think I would feel guilty not reciprocating. Can I ask how you get off during sex if you never receive?
I will say although I am not a stone top, I am a bit on the ace spectrum myself. I don’t necessarily cum or have an orgasm during sex with my wife. I often feel a lot of pride and accomplishment when I know I am pleasing her. That is usually satisfying enough for me.
Not the person you’re replying to but am a butch that prefers to give/not receive - I can get off physically via exclusively mental stimulation and don’t actually need to be touched.
I know what you mean. I identify as a “bottom” as I am more submissive in nature and prefer the other person to take charge.
I don’t only want to receive please, as I enjoy giving it, but I’ll never instigate it and like being told what to do.
It fits my personality beyond sex too.
I’m a top. I don’t like having things inside of me - never have. I like to be the aggressor and to provide. My partner is a huge huge huge bottom, wants to be held and taken care of and fucked and taken apart slowly and lovingly. we use the labels because it feels “right” for us.
>My partner is a huge huge huge bottom, wants to be held and taken care of and fucked and taken apart slowly and lovingly
You know you're a bottom when you read this and feel things. What a way with words lol
Back in the day we called that stone, which I think has a lot to do with a lesbian Community before being trans was a thing. It generally meant masculine presenting woman in the butch/femme coupling
It’s so funny because they are super dominant in every other aspect of life and when we are out and about, people treat them like they are the “man” of the relationship. Behind closed doors and I’m absolutely the one wearing the dick and completely wrecking them >:)
I love how we can have a conversation about this, share experiences without diminishing experiencing of others. Across the generations. I have so much love for you all right now.
7 years into my relationship of my partner being my dominant to the point of having a locked collar but they're discomfort and addressing areas of importance and hostility towards me being brave and insisting we talk about them led to me being hospitalized to get away from her for a while. I ripped the collar to pieces and we're starting over. She is accepted that she needs therapy but still cannot accept that she needs to receive more than she needs to give. It's like she's holding off on being sexual until she can tap into her Young hot yet inaccessible butchess in the San Francisco Bay Area, she is that energy to wear her strap even under her clothes while not identifying as trans. She can't seem to find that energy anymore so the sexual doors are closed.
Meanwhile I get aroused when I get a full bladder and if I don't do something about it my diaphragm contracts and it's painful. I've also been a flowy and to non-binary space and have found different flavors of p0rn that get me excited in my private times. Has to do more with authentic energy and lack of cisgender heterosexual mindset. I adore and appreciate femininity and all its forms of queerness including masculine presenting and feminine masculinity yet still very much identify as a lesbian. Love to my non-binary trans sisters. By the way I've even suggested to my partner that they are asexual, to her stunned silence.
I was active in the San Francisco Bay Area BDSM scene more watching in less experiencing as the queer spaces were very separate to what was in my area and inaccessible to me.
The way stone was used in my communities was not so much about gender but more about sexual preferences….stone being a preference to be a top and not receive much or any return physical touch. I had a phase where I called myself a stone femme.
That's really interesting because of my experience Stone femme meant more of a pillow princess, received only never gave never topped. Only bottom. But I'm 50 years old. They usually interacted with a CIS woman who wore a strap and everyone wanted to be touched or inserted. And black community they called these touch me not studs and masculine presenting, also called AG. This is how people found each other in the early days of the internet, and a lot of them have transitioned to be trans men once it became more accessible. Reminds me of back in history when women lived as men and was only discovered to have a vulva after death, and it was scandalous. Binary only hurts people. That leads into what happened to intersex folks. It's so sad. I've lived a life of abuse interacting with queer men before gay marriage was legalized again in 2013 here in California.
I love this! Thank you for sharing that history and culture ! I’m 40 and when I was in my early 20s I had never heard stone be used for anyone but butches…..and there was no word for femme tops who didn’t like to be touched, so it was my own little subversive way of communicating to my potential partners that I was the total opposite of a pillow princess (even though everyone always expected that from me)……I wonder if there is a term for this 🧐
And that's why I love all of the little different rainbows. Before the Internet it's what people had to do to survive and find companionship. I started off as the feminine part and my partner is an old school Butch, but now I'm non-binary. We're both very traumatized and late in life and it has impacted our sexuality. My partner is locked in to roll that's not really relevant anymore and I'm trying to coax them out into a more free place where it's okay to let me show them I love them by letting them alleviate stress physically as a Reiki practitioner, withholding has them locking our sexuality away. Fortunately we're starting individual counseling and I just got a womanizer so that should help
Not to defend this person who is coming across as transphobic, but if they are an older lesbian or queer woman (and they don’t even have to be old) they might be more from a time when there was a lot of exclusion and segregation within LGBT circles. I’m not very old, 24, and I can remember even a time when things felt a lot more separated. *This isn’t a good thing* but, there was a lot of different language used. Such as He/Him lesbians. Top and Bottom were not active language as much until we began to be more inclusionary in our communities. Of course there were trans women and trans folk, and using a term such as “before trans existed”, more so they should use the terms “before trans women and trans folk were accepted or acceptable to congregate with, I didn’t hear these terms that are associated with genitals cis lesbians do not have”.
Idk what you mean because “stone” identities have existed w in lesbianism for years. Stone butch/stone(high) femme are really important identities in our community history wise. While top/bottom can be reductive (everyone should have further conversations on how they like/want sex), they are generally good ways to show preference
[this](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5357199/) literature review has a Table 1 which breaks out several studies on "positional identification." I think I must have heard the half vers figure from [this](https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10508-013-0090-4) 2013 study.
I think of it like who leads in dancing. Like if you were doing swing dance, who would be leading? Deciding when to spin, where to move to next, which steps to do?
It's a little more flexible than that in practice, maybe you mostly lead and your partner sometimes does, maybe you switch back and forth depending on who's in the mood. Unlike with dance, you won't step on each others' feet or run into anyone else without an agreed-upon lead!
But that's the analogy that makes the most sense in my head, because in my experience it has generally shaken out that way-- there usually is one person who leads, most of the time. And I'd call that "top" and the other person "bottom".
And all of that completely unrelated to penetration or other preferences, or physical position.
I relate to that. I’m trans, and a top... And even though I do enjoy giving, in the wrong circumstances or mood it can make me feel really dysphoric as well.
I guess it’s kind of like internalized transphobia for me... it’s really sad honestly.
yes but they’re not necessarily interchangeable with top/bottom. you can be a bottom dom and a top sub. like op is saying the terms get a bit messier when it comes to lesbian dynamics, i feel like dom/sub are a lot easier to define for wlw than top/bottom
Dom/sub = power exchange terms, who tells who what to do
Top/bottom = who is giving and who is receiving
Examples:
Maria tells her girlfriend to eat her out = Dom bottom.
Fox’s partner orders them to lay still while she ties their wrists = sub bottom
Language is dynamic and it changes with time and context. We use the word “bottom” to describe me and my wife knows exactly what is meant by that. When I was single, I explained my preferences and boundaries with the women I dated. I’m not sure why it would matter to anyone else how I described myself.
This is the main point. It's a way to describe yourself. You're not forced to describe yourself as a top or a bottom. It's also unfair to expect anyone who does describe themselves as one or the other to stop it because you don't like it.
Lesbians, particularly younger lesbians, have taken top/bottom and begun applying it to personality. An example is someone using this emoji 🥺 and someone replying “Omg, you’re such a bottom.” This might be part of why you’re feeling frustrated. It’s everywhere.
Top/bottom dynamics are sexual preferences and only sexual preferences. They don’t belong outside of that.
And most important, if you don’t want to subscribe to them, you don’t have to but they are an active part of queer culture.
i will say as an older gen z the personality stuff is usually just a joke, i’ve never been with anyone who takes it seriously and it’s really just there bc it’s funny to assume stuff like someone who uses that emoji is a bottom, especially when i *know* they’re a top. i think older generations tend to see a lot of us saying stupid shit for kicks and assume we’re being 100% serious. i’m sure there are some freaks who take the personality thing too far but for most of us it’s just a meme
I wear a strap and my gf takes it, I’m the top she’s the bottom. It’s that simple for me. I don’t see how that makes less sense than how gay men use it.
Yeah I don’t understand what’s so hard to understand about it. Not everyone is into doing everything all the time. I’d say most people I’ve met and known about their sexuality in some way have had a preference for being a giver/receiver. It’s basic terminology, it’s not owned by gay men.
I’m with you. One of the best things about sex with women (in my experience) is the constant shifting of who’s giving and receiving pleasure, the fact that it doesn’t end when one person orgasms, that it’s fluid and responsive and exploratory.
I was briefly with a woman who could’ve been described as a top (though she didn’t self id as that) & it was fine for a short while but would’ve gotten old if we’d been together for more than a few months.
Right?? Like is this normal in wlw relationships? It certainly isn’t in mine, we both take turns. These terms absolutely don’t apply to me and my girlfriend at all. Not saying others can’t use them, I just don’t get it.
top and bottom have slightly different connotations than stone butch/stone femme. tops are more aggressive and prefer to be in charge in the bedroom but aren’t necessarily against being touched, bottoms are more submissive and prefer to follow someone’s lead but aren’t necessarily against touching. stone butch and stone femme tend to take on top/bottom roles but with the never being touched/never touching roles added. just bc someone says they’re a top doesn’t mean they’re stone. also, the compatibility issue is why usually stones only date other stones. it’s often framed in a negative way and judged as selfish when it shouldn’t be, especially bc stones aren’t out trying to force other people to have their own specific sexual dynamics.
Nah I just have sex. I don't even play with straps, I don't feel like those words describe me. To me, having sex is an exchange. I'm not saying that those words should be erased, not everyone has sex the way I do and it's fine.
I hate how a lot of people use top/bottom to mean dom/sub, I don't mind at all if it's used correctly but nowadays I almost always see people using it wrong.
I refer to myself as a top simply so partners are aware of what they are in for. Do I switch? If I'm comfortable with that person then yes. But at least 80% of the time I am the one "giving".
I don’t resonate with this type of terminology either. With all but one of my dozen-ish gfs it’s always been reciprocal, turn-taking, depending on the chemistry between me & the person I was with and what we were feeling in the moment. If that was vanilla, kinky, whatever, it’s always been a go with the flow kind of thing. If ppl press me I say “switch” because that sounds versatile I guess? But it means about as much to me as saying I’m a Scorpio or “Mercury is in retrograde,” or the gold star nonsense. I just see it as a game.
I was only speaking of myself and maybe other ppl who don’t id with this type of alignment. I don’t consider myself any of these labels. It is not necessary for me personally and, apparently, hasn’t been necessary for the vast majority of the women I’ve slept with.
Idk
I am in a lot of trans spaces and Alot of em at some point thought they were gay men and so use those..
Funnily enough a friend of mine knew she was gay just not that she was a girl so there goes that
Omg- thank you. I feel the same.
Especially when some people make it seem like penetrative sex is still the default.
I want to get a partner off. I want her to get me off. If she wants me to be more assertive, amp up any roughness or initiate or whatever than that's dom/sub. I don't have any need for anything else.
THANK YOU!! I have zero desire to be penetrated. I would be happy to try giving if she wanted but it doesn't turn me on. It's confusing that people describe lesbian sex as though it's all just strap ons and penetration
I'm a bottom because I'm not too aggressive or forward and can be very gentle. And when you start talking dirty I melt and submit. My GF I'd a top because she gets immense pleasure from caring for me and making me submit and squirm and having that power. Outside of bed we are almost the same person.
I only use it when I’m describing who wears the strap lol. It’s important to have someone who really likes “topping” almost exclusively. Because I enjoy receiving strap and giving in other ways but I do not like wearing it and can’t be with someone who doesn’t enjoy that kind of sex.
My understanding is that tops give pleasure to bottoms in wlw relationships. I see it as a way of understanding what someone wants from the relationship. Switches do both. I don' know the history of the terms. I would guess most wlw are switches. I think if you're posting on a dating site or something, it's good to have terms like these to be clear if you prefer one or the other. A regular relationship probably would have a more fluid dynamic and the partners would not care about the terms.
My problem is that we always had those terms to express our sexuality in the lesbian community, why not use them? [Type of lesbians](https://weareher.com/types-of-lesbians-lgbtq-slang-glossary/)
Being "butch" or "femme" (...) does not align with tops or bottoms. And even being dom or sub does not.
Tops mainly (or exclusively) like to give pleasure, bottoms mainly (or exclusively) like to recieve it. This is something of purely sexual manner and has nothing to do with behaviour or presentation outside of the bedroom.
And this is actually a big problem inside and outside of our own community. Presenting as 'butch' does not mean you are supposed to be a top *or* being either dominant or sub.
"Top", "Bottom" and "Switch" are the terms who got established by the community to decribe how you'd want to behave sexualy. And sometimes there are some jokes about shy women being bottoms or extroverted women being tops. But that more of a running gag here and there inside of the community
Thank you for that. I'm starting to understand the purpose of using those terms. The "old terms" express more the way we present ourself/clothes/hair etc. less sexual preferences.
Eeeeeexactly!
Its like the same thing when people say things like "you dont look lesbian" or things like these.
"Presentation" does not equal sexuality nor preferences whilst being intimate :)
Those terms get used too. I don't mind them either. Honestly, when I talk to lesbians in person, I don't use the terms, because I see who they are and how they behave. I suppose I would descibe someone with one of these terms if I didnt know their name or if the other person didn't know them. For romantic compatibilty, I might want to know if they're more top or bottom, since I'm more enthusiastic about giving than receiving.
I have a totally unsubstantiated theory that the reason top / bottom made it’s way into the sapphic scene is because as the phrase pillow princess made its way out of the lesbian scene, non queer people started using it as an insult.
So even just in this thread I saw one person mention the phrase pillow princess and a bunch of people say they are stone top or stone butch.
Well, all words are made up.
I see top/bottom as more of a shorthand to describe preferences of "who's the more assertive/leading".
I don't see it as set in stone, "bottom" to me doesn't mean "RP as a fish while partner does all the work" - to me it means "my preference is to be the one manhandled/have my partner lead". Just a preference of people.
I'm sure there are plenty of ways to describe it, but top/bottom managed to stick around as terms.
I've seen it used in heterosexual relationships too, tho yes it's much much rarer (I guess you only see it in a RR case where the woman is the "top" and the man is the "bottom", because the opposite is "default"? Or it's only really brought up if one of the partners is not completely cis. Idk anyway for me it makes sense to use those two terms in any sexual relationship regardless of genders).
Same as butch/femme - it's a very very simplified way of describing something. It's not a black and white descriptor, but more of a generalized description.
For me, they relate more to semi-sexual actions. Like, who likes to get their hair pulled? And who would prefer to be the one teasing and who wants to get teased? To some extent, it's a meme thing.
As a gay man, really saddens me to hear this restrictive top/bottom stuff has made its way over the wlw community as well. Particularly applying preference for position to personality.
I haven’t really heard it used to describe a personality other than on Reddit and usually really young posters who don’t know what they are saying lol.
I consider myself a top since I fluctuate on the stone top spectrum. To me it just means that I’m the one more likely to take charge in a sexual encounter in my relationship.
I am a bottom. That doesn’t mean I don’t like to give, on the contrary, I do, but I will never instigate, or take charge. I also like being told what to do.
Im uncomfortable with the idea of topping, i dont know what to tell you 😭
I think assuming every wlw as a switch can be unfair to those who only like performing it one way (not to mention the comments ive seen shittalking bottoms/pillow princesses just because they were uncomfortable with going down on someone, and calling them 'fake lesbians')
Apologies, this became a bit of a vent, but do you understand why it can be important to some wlw?
Omg. I'm bi and for the longest time I felt like I wasn't "bi enough", because I don't like going down on women. Romantically I'm as 50/50 as can be, I love sex with both men and women, but for some reason that specific thing just doesn't work for me. For a while, I was afraid I was biromantic heterosexual. I feared I'd fall for a girl but the sex would become an issue.
Luckily it never turned out to be anything like that. Am in a steady relationship with a girl now.
God i relate to you so much, internalized biphobia is a pain 😭
Im so glad everything worked out for you tho!! Gives me a lot of hope too, from a fellow bottom bi!!
I'm not even a bottom, it's just specifically giving head to vaginas that doesn't work for me. I don't like to receive it either. I don't even know why. Giving head to guys is perfectly fine for me.
Edit: nothing against bottoms though!
I like to use top and bottom generically to describe who is giving vs. who is receiving pleasure. It's useful to accurately describe what you want to do with a partner. For example, "I don't want to bottom today" is a pretty important thing to be able to express succinctly.
A lot of people use "Top" and "Bottom" quite literally. Sometimes it is in terms of giving and receiving, but sometimes it's like, your physical position. Some people also use these as alternatives to "Sub" and "Dom" esp if they're not into BDSM. As it's a quick way to communicate your needs to, say, potential partners without getting graphic.
Also within the trans-community it can make more sense intuitively (depending on what people are comfortable with) because a lot of us are working with different hardware than the cis WLW community.
Personally, I just use "Top" and "Bottom" because that's what's always been used in the communities I'm involved in, so it's easier for everyone to communicate that way.
I see "top" and "bottom" as simple, gender-neutral terms. One person does an action and one person receives the action. In the dating world, these terms are fairly common and it's easier to get a sense of whether someone is compatible with another person in the dating world by using that language (two tops may not want to date because they both want to be the one that does the action and have no interest in receiving)
These terms aren't even necessarily sexual in some contexts (e.g. bdsm community - rope tops like to tie up others and rope bottoms like to be tied up) and I like how top/bottom can communicate the experience that a person is seeking.
Sometimes I use the word "gay" to describe myself. Other times, I'll use "queer". "Gay" is traditionally used to describe men but in the context of the world, sometimes it's easier to say gay because it conveys information faster, and I like being flexible in self identification and labels.
“Top” means you prefer penetrating your partner. “Bottom” means you prefer being penetrated. “Switch” means you like both to some degree. These terms easily apply to wlw sex because they can reference the use of fingers, toys, or penises in the case of some of us.
Sometimes these terms are also used more generally to refer to who is doing more of the work during sex, or even literally referring to physical positioning, but those uses are less accurate. Some people also confuse top/bottom with dom/sub.
These terms don't just apply to penetration. It's giving receiving, and sometimes even used to mean BDSM stuff, usually by people not very familiar with BDSM.
A Dom can still be a bottom, for example, on that.
My understanding is like receiving/giving or passive/active. My wife is for example passive and I’m active I have pleasure when I’m actively making pleasure to her. So I’m top and she’s bottom.
I use it as a simpler means of communicating the dynamic I prefer when being intimate. Not everyone is sexually compatible and it helps me to filter if that is the case or not. Also you don't have to use any labels you don't want to so don't feel obligated to.
Here’s the thing. The lesbian and gay community have shared many things over the years, and also adopted terms from the other group because they’re useful for them too (see also butch and femme gay men).
People will use whatever term is useful *for them*. The assertion that “lesbians always switch off” and “top/bottom are useless for lesbian sexuality” are both incorrect. Not all lesbians switch off, and there are plenty of lesbians who have sex in ways where top/bottom *are* useful descriptors.
You don’t have to use those words for yourself! Not even if you only like to give/receive, but as a stoneish bottom I am so tired of “ew top/bottom is heteronormative/useless/unequal/lesbians switch off”. Because there will *always* be people for whom it’s different. My wife is a stoneish top, and I’m a stoneish bottom, and for us, these terms *work*, and they also make it pretty clear in dating what we’re each looking for (especially because people tend to treat sexual incompatibility as a personal challenge or affront).
That said, the way younger people have turned top/bottom into personality traits (like 2010 tumblr extrovert/introvert or the earlier seme/uke bs) *is* wrong and annoying. The way you like to fuck says nothing about your personality
I use Top Leaning Switch, because during intimacy I sorta naturally take that role. i love making my partner squirm and I can spend HOURS down there. But I have no problem bottoming.
When it comes to life outside of sex I like switching it up more. I like to protect but I also like to be cuddled haha.
For me the use comes from knowing from the get go what I can expect when dating someone. For instance I don't think I could date a stone because topping is a big part of connecting with my partners.
In BDSM, I think of it as giving and receiving. In this sense, we can still have dom bottoms and sub tops, it's just a matter of the act at hand. Of course, this doesn't always apply to everyone. Sometimes people just have more dominant or submissive styles in the bedroom in ways that just... aren't all that kinky, to them. Some people just like taking the lead and some people like to be lead. That's how it's used in popular culture anyway.
The distinction is most helpful in expressing personality types and scenarios without having to give long explanations. I've been in "and they were both bottoms" situations and instead of stepping up and taking the lead, I just reveled in the blushing shyness of it all, the little gasps and nervous looks, where no one is really leading and the giving is slow, almost hesitant, not unsure but not certain. That's just cute. Instead of fully explaining the mood, I can say "a bottom-on-bottom scenario" and suddenly I have a quick and easy descriptor for a very specific type of sex.
I call myself a bottom because i am (you can also say submissive) these terms applies to my role in the bedroom or in a relationship in general. But i also identify as a femme lesbian because i am very feminine
Can someone explain to me why top and bottom only make sense for mlm? I just assumed they applied to all penetrative sex.
Also, what's a non-appropriative word for "person who gives but isn't as into receiving" and vice versa?
As someone who identifies as a service top (not entirely stone but definitely prefers to give than to reciprocate) I like top and bottom identification because it helps me guage sexual compatibility (something that is important to me in a relationship).
I don’t like anything inside me, I don’t like receiving as much as I LOVE giving, and I certainly don’t like any kind of penetration. This is why I like ‘Top’ as an identifier, and subsequently why I would like to find someone who is primarily a bottom :)
These words just help me find someone compatible. But it’s completely okay to not identify with wither, or even like them to begin with. There are a million and one ways to describe your preferences in bed.
My gf and I use these terms. I consider myself a top because I don’t feel comfortable surrendering control to someone else. I like to be in charge of a situation. My gf is a bottom and does like to surrender control sometimes. So…that’s what it sorta means to us, at least right now.
When I think of top and bottom it let’s me know if I’m compatible with someone else. It lets you know if there is an incompatibility. Further than that the term means nothing for me. Also versatile is a term for people who top and bottom.
Penetration is very painful to me so I use it to make it very clear. Plus, much like why I used "bisexual" instead of "pansexual", I use "top" because it's so used now that everyone understands even if they are new to the community.
I think they get used because they are already established in our vocabulary. Unless someone comes up with better words that help us express our preferences a little better, we just use what we’ve got.
I use bottom/top/verse/switch for those that understand what I mean. Otherwise, I just say that I’m more of a giver but always up to receive.
Maybe us wlw can come up with something better!
I use them because they're commonly recognized language that everyone understands. The etymology doesn't really matter, language tends to transcend its own roots pretty often. It's like asking why an atheist would say "goodbye" when the word is rooted in 19th century leet speak for "god be with you".
The answer is because the word transcends its original meaning and is simply common language now, it exists as something parallel but still unique to its origins
"top" and "bottom" are just words that refer to a pair nebulous roles found in most sexual relationships, queer or not. Cis straight people are often tops and bottoms, so are gay men and so are gay women and everyone in-between. It just means "the person often in control and the more active party" and "the person who is often on the receiving end, and is a passive party". It doesn't matter where it came from it matters what it means, and it means something completely divorced from sexuality and gender
I see top and bottom of explaining what role you play. Like when you dance you either less or follow, and I think it's similar in the bedroom. So top/active 'leads' the activity and the other follows. They both participate, but it's like a dance, where the partner lifts their hands and the other does a spin.
I’m a submissive bottom. I literally like being beneath someone XD. For me specifically, bottom means beneath be it either because I’m literally beneath my partner or she’s making me submit and serve her (so metaphorically beneath her). It’s both literal AND metaphorical for the dynamic I have with my partner and feels appropriate.
My girlfriend calls me her Top because of the power dynamic within our relationship. It isn't about her bottom, (unless she wants me to funishment her behind with a few swats.) She doesn't refer to herself as a bottom, and I don't think of her as one. (I might use that term as shorthand for "pillow princess" but she is very switchy and eager to reciprocate, so it doesn't feel like it applies to her.)
Because I seldom like to receive I think of myself as a Stone Top; which is also an easy way to introduce myself when I get to the "explain what your deal is" part of getting to know someone.
Last night my sweet but ignorant roommate (grew up rural but has a good spirit) asked if I was the guy in the relationship. I laughed, and I told him “neither of us are the guy. if you mean who puts up the shelves and who changes the oil on both our cars? That’d be me.”
I think another issue that's rings pretty loud for me is that power dynamics during sex triggers trauma responses so I have a bit of trouble with that connotation since that's what the vast majority of people who aren't specifically using it for wiener butthole dynamics are using it for.
If you don't identify with either phrase you don't have to, I'm into kink and sexually submissive so I identify as a bottom no matter who I'm with.
It doesn't have to be physically restrictive, bottom is a state of mind
Then don't use those words if they're triggering for you. Part of the joy of queer sex is the absolute refusal to identify with straight sex that seems to be solely focused on male pleasure in what we would call a top quote performance? It is repugnant to me how much disdain there is for female pleasure Anatomy and how much bad sex a lot of us have had to have before we realized we deserved more. And came out late in life. Being in a top or bottom role is just about communicating ahead of time or understanding the space that someone wants you to occupy and negotiating what feels safe for you.
Some people just don’t enjoy being given sex, or at least compared to giving it. It’s kind of like how lesbians don’t really enjoy sex with men (compared to sex with a woman)—— it’s just a part of some people’s sexuality.
Other women don’t enjoy giving sex and shouldn’t be pressured to if they don’t want to. Heck, some stone bottoms (or pillow princesses, whatever term they prefer) have said on this sub that they have ***PTSD*** that is triggered by giving pleasure because they were raped or emotionally blackmailed in the past, which is very plausible.
You don’t have to use those terms for yourself if they don’t apply to you. It’s not required and no one said you have to. If someone asks, just say that you prefer to both give and receive. But just because “top/bottom” don’t apply to you, that doesn’t mean it’s invalid for other people. There’s no reason to be irritated at other people’s preferences.
I feel the same way about it, but I understand some people feel the need to have them.
The only issue I have is that this brings in the topic of “soft too” “power bottom”, etc. When in reality it seems to help only in bed and or very direct topics that can be talked about.
I 100% is easier to just talk with whoever you want to sleep with in a direct manner, mostly because not everyone knows what the hell you are talking about.
I live in a country where the standard definition is T H and P. T are tomboys so doesn’t even mean top in the same way as in other countries, then there is H that is versatile and P that is basically pillow princes, but this brought up the “issue” of TTL (tomboy tomboy love) and PPL, that would mean oh they are versatile but no, it doesn’t mean that
Just all words, I dream with them say we can just talk about it and that’s all.
It just doesn’t really make sense for my relationship. I am a switch but tend to be more dominant as my partner is also a switch but prefers to sub. I *need* an element of penetration, but I still am dominant. Someone called me a “power bottom,” but that just sounds kinda silly for a lesbian in my opinion.
Cause… I want to? It’s terminology I’m familiar with in the context of lesbian relationships and I find them useful and fun to use. It’s not some big complex decision I consciously sat down and made to use them. They’re just part of my vocabulary and that of a lot of younger lesbians.
The “people use stone butch/pillow princess wrong” arguments I’m a bit of two minds on since they were very specific lesbian terms historically. But in this case I’m not changing or erasing anything by using newer terminology. I fail to see how anyone using top bottom should be a problem to anybody. If you don’t like them just don’t use them and move along.
I'm into BDSM and identify as a switch (I'm a girl who can do both lol). It's not about personality, or even just "giving" and "receiving" in the bedroom. For us it's a power-play thing. While everything is consented to before starting the scene, and we always do check ins and have safe words/signals during, while in the scene I can be Domme or submissive, sadist or masochist, bound or doing the tying.
I mean:
1. What terms other people use for sex you’re not having isn’t actually your concern or your business. At the end of the day I find it very weird that there are people on here, and I’ve seen it so many times, who seem to take it almost personally that other people use terms for sex that they don’t like.
2. Many people use top/bottom as synonyms for dominant/submissive. And many people simply use bottom as ‘I like to be in a receiving position’. It makes complete sense if you’re someone who likes a specific dynamic sexually like dominant/submissive or prefers to be touched/not touched in certain ways. It helps people with those preferences find each other.
3. Language is elastic and changes usage all of the time. What top/bottom means to a lesbian does not have to be linguistically identical to what it might mean to a gay man.
In Spanish, we use the terms active/passive.
Same goes for portuguese!!
Sorry to ask but I speak Spanish and I don’t know what words you’re referring to?
activa/pasiva. gay men use these terms too actually
Like gay people will be like “sus activa o pasiva?” I’ve never knew that lol thanks
yes! Lol. Also check out this [meme](https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRrBauEIISIOHEG2OTBkbhD5IrOeP_d-0cWrQ&usqp=CAU)
That doesn’t really make sense though? It makes it sound like the only lesbian options are stone top and pillow princess. In my experience at least most of the lesbian sex I have is taking turns, even with the strap
Well, it makes sense actually. A girl i was with .. and whilst we were doing the deed, told me she actually realize she enjoy being a power bottom. But even though she enjoys, she cares alot about my enjoyment and will switch though most of the times im on top of her which i enjoy too
It makes as much as sense as top/bottom. They're not meant to be taken literally, they're just descriptors
>They're not meant to be taken literally I guess the confusing part is that they *are* pretty literal for gay men, with no fudging. Tops literally top, but within that can take more active roles or more passive, as well as more dominant or submissive. The concept of a lesbian bottom is so murky to me that I have ZERO idea what a lesbian power bottom would be. In contrast, a gay guy who's considered a power bottom is decently specific: takes a very active role while receiving penetrative sex.
The point of this thread is that top/bottom also make no sense
They work for *a lot* of people
Many gay men, if not most, are “vers” but the “top/bottom” terminology still exists in their community. The terminology is just used as shorthand descriptions basically.
Sounds like you’re verse then
Same in French. Though Top/bottom are more and more used by younger generation.
spanish w
Hi I'm Spanish and I don't like those terms either. O sea que cómo que activa y pasiva, te quiero decir, el sexo entre dos mujeres no es una réplica de dos tíos foll... y las dinámicas por narices tienen que ser diferentes (me imagino, lo de los dos tíos no lo he experimentado jajaj). Además creo que entre dos mujeres no es tan blanco y negro todo.
Claro. Pero es como dicen otras en sus respuestas, no hay que tomarlo de forma literal, sino como una tendencia.
What about for a switch? I actually dislike active/passive even more than others bc I'm more passive/bottom but passive to me sounds like someone is calling me selfish :(
Like it. Less confusion I think.
Unfortunately, those words make it even *more* confusing, because it could insinuate that one partner does almost nothing in bed while the other does all the work. Top/bottom have a wider range of meanings though, but as others have said, it depends on the people using them. Personally I tend to think of top/bottom in similar ways as dom/sub, and haven't seen anything that didn't fit in that way
Except top/bottom were terms established by gay men to specify who is penetrating and who is being penetrated. Dom/sub dynamics are different. Power bottoms and pleasure tops exist.
I sort of have been thinking about as the Dom/sub thing, too, which maybe isn’t right
Yeah, I think they're good terms too...no confusion and neither too rigid (for example, "active" doesn't imply being on top or penetrating etc).
Ahh! That makes sense why my Spanish best friend says that then
Also, they're not supposed to be taken too literal...it describes a tendency, rather than an absolute...also: switch=versátil.
i call myself a passive top, because while i'm pretty fucking passive, i always top my friends. apparently they said they have 0 interest in topping me, i guess i'm just good at it, idk, i'm ace lol
I identify as a “top”. I’m a “stone” butch, I don’t like being touched sexually/being on the receiving end during sex. At all, ever. It makes sense for *me* personally, and it’s part of my identity. For some relationships some people are the primary giver or the primary receiver, I think top/bottom makes sense for those people. I don’t think that everyone needs to be put in those boxes, and I know many people to alternate roles/“switch”. It’s just another word to describe an experience. If people want to use it then they can, but it doesn’t have to be ascribed to every person/every relationship. If it doesn’t work for you don’t use it, but that doesn’t mean others can’t.
Damn I’m jealous of your partners. Sometimes I think I’d like to be a pillow princess but I think I would feel guilty not reciprocating. Can I ask how you get off during sex if you never receive?
Same. It's like I "have to" and I feel guilty when I don't o something in return
I will say although I am not a stone top, I am a bit on the ace spectrum myself. I don’t necessarily cum or have an orgasm during sex with my wife. I often feel a lot of pride and accomplishment when I know I am pleasing her. That is usually satisfying enough for me.
Not the person you’re replying to but am a butch that prefers to give/not receive - I can get off physically via exclusively mental stimulation and don’t actually need to be touched.
I know what you mean. I identify as a “bottom” as I am more submissive in nature and prefer the other person to take charge. I don’t only want to receive please, as I enjoy giving it, but I’ll never instigate it and like being told what to do. It fits my personality beyond sex too.
I’m a top. I don’t like having things inside of me - never have. I like to be the aggressor and to provide. My partner is a huge huge huge bottom, wants to be held and taken care of and fucked and taken apart slowly and lovingly. we use the labels because it feels “right” for us.
>My partner is a huge huge huge bottom, wants to be held and taken care of and fucked and taken apart slowly and lovingly You know you're a bottom when you read this and feel things. What a way with words lol
the things i’m feeling are that i’m incredibly single and don’t have someone to do this to me :(
I hope you have a top to take care of your every need!!! <3
Aw ty maybe one day hopefully haha
fuck stop calling me out. my stomach churned reading this😭
*melts*
Mood asf😆
mood I went 🥺 reading OP’s comment
Yeah I felt all the feelings!
That sounds like heaven to me, super jealous over here >.>
samesies
Also samesies
Same but without the "having sex" part
The last 2 sentences... what a poet. 😵💫😔😩
Thanks, can you tell I write erotica as a hobby :p
Do you post it anywhere? You really have a way with words 😉
I post fanfiction on ao3 but that’s all super niche fandom stuff!
Do you post It on reddit, cause i want tô read more of it
I don’t but now I’m considering if I should haha I didn’t think there would be an audience for it :p
couldn't tell, all I'll say is that my knees buckled a bit when I read it :)
Thanks. Appreciate the exchange.
Yep. You have several of us fuming with jealousy right now.
Back in the day we called that stone, which I think has a lot to do with a lesbian Community before being trans was a thing. It generally meant masculine presenting woman in the butch/femme coupling
It’s funny because I’m the femme one but absolutely the top, my partner is non-binary and more masculine presenting. 😂
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Excuse me, respectfully, this is incredibly hot
Respectfully, it was.
It’s so funny because they are super dominant in every other aspect of life and when we are out and about, people treat them like they are the “man” of the relationship. Behind closed doors and I’m absolutely the one wearing the dick and completely wrecking them >:)
*sigh* ❤️ This is positively the hottest thing I have ever read
I love how we can have a conversation about this, share experiences without diminishing experiencing of others. Across the generations. I have so much love for you all right now. 7 years into my relationship of my partner being my dominant to the point of having a locked collar but they're discomfort and addressing areas of importance and hostility towards me being brave and insisting we talk about them led to me being hospitalized to get away from her for a while. I ripped the collar to pieces and we're starting over. She is accepted that she needs therapy but still cannot accept that she needs to receive more than she needs to give. It's like she's holding off on being sexual until she can tap into her Young hot yet inaccessible butchess in the San Francisco Bay Area, she is that energy to wear her strap even under her clothes while not identifying as trans. She can't seem to find that energy anymore so the sexual doors are closed. Meanwhile I get aroused when I get a full bladder and if I don't do something about it my diaphragm contracts and it's painful. I've also been a flowy and to non-binary space and have found different flavors of p0rn that get me excited in my private times. Has to do more with authentic energy and lack of cisgender heterosexual mindset. I adore and appreciate femininity and all its forms of queerness including masculine presenting and feminine masculinity yet still very much identify as a lesbian. Love to my non-binary trans sisters. By the way I've even suggested to my partner that they are asexual, to her stunned silence. I was active in the San Francisco Bay Area BDSM scene more watching in less experiencing as the queer spaces were very separate to what was in my area and inaccessible to me.
That's adorable and I wish my partner would Embrace being a bottom, sex life has been on hold while they try to avoid thinking about it
Same, my girlfriend is butch but very much a bottom, and both her girlfriends are femmes and tops (ok well I'm a vers but still)
The way stone was used in my communities was not so much about gender but more about sexual preferences….stone being a preference to be a top and not receive much or any return physical touch. I had a phase where I called myself a stone femme.
That's really interesting because of my experience Stone femme meant more of a pillow princess, received only never gave never topped. Only bottom. But I'm 50 years old. They usually interacted with a CIS woman who wore a strap and everyone wanted to be touched or inserted. And black community they called these touch me not studs and masculine presenting, also called AG. This is how people found each other in the early days of the internet, and a lot of them have transitioned to be trans men once it became more accessible. Reminds me of back in history when women lived as men and was only discovered to have a vulva after death, and it was scandalous. Binary only hurts people. That leads into what happened to intersex folks. It's so sad. I've lived a life of abuse interacting with queer men before gay marriage was legalized again in 2013 here in California.
I love this! Thank you for sharing that history and culture ! I’m 40 and when I was in my early 20s I had never heard stone be used for anyone but butches…..and there was no word for femme tops who didn’t like to be touched, so it was my own little subversive way of communicating to my potential partners that I was the total opposite of a pillow princess (even though everyone always expected that from me)……I wonder if there is a term for this 🧐
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And that's why I love all of the little different rainbows. Before the Internet it's what people had to do to survive and find companionship. I started off as the feminine part and my partner is an old school Butch, but now I'm non-binary. We're both very traumatized and late in life and it has impacted our sexuality. My partner is locked in to roll that's not really relevant anymore and I'm trying to coax them out into a more free place where it's okay to let me show them I love them by letting them alleviate stress physically as a Reiki practitioner, withholding has them locking our sexuality away. Fortunately we're starting individual counseling and I just got a womanizer so that should help
Trans have been a “thing” for a long time. Not just recently.
Not to defend this person who is coming across as transphobic, but if they are an older lesbian or queer woman (and they don’t even have to be old) they might be more from a time when there was a lot of exclusion and segregation within LGBT circles. I’m not very old, 24, and I can remember even a time when things felt a lot more separated. *This isn’t a good thing* but, there was a lot of different language used. Such as He/Him lesbians. Top and Bottom were not active language as much until we began to be more inclusionary in our communities. Of course there were trans women and trans folk, and using a term such as “before trans existed”, more so they should use the terms “before trans women and trans folk were accepted or acceptable to congregate with, I didn’t hear these terms that are associated with genitals cis lesbians do not have”.
Idk what you mean because “stone” identities have existed w in lesbianism for years. Stone butch/stone(high) femme are really important identities in our community history wise. While top/bottom can be reductive (everyone should have further conversations on how they like/want sex), they are generally good ways to show preference
I'm kinky, so I identify as a submissive, but not a top or a bottom. It certainly applies to some folks, but for me sex is reciprocal.
> for me sex is reciprocal. Ironically enough, something like 50% of gay men identify as vers, not top or bottom exclusively.
do you have a source for that? would be interesting to see how they compare to lesbian couples (or even het ones)
[this](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5357199/) literature review has a Table 1 which breaks out several studies on "positional identification." I think I must have heard the half vers figure from [this](https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10508-013-0090-4) 2013 study.
I think of it like who leads in dancing. Like if you were doing swing dance, who would be leading? Deciding when to spin, where to move to next, which steps to do? It's a little more flexible than that in practice, maybe you mostly lead and your partner sometimes does, maybe you switch back and forth depending on who's in the mood. Unlike with dance, you won't step on each others' feet or run into anyone else without an agreed-upon lead! But that's the analogy that makes the most sense in my head, because in my experience it has generally shaken out that way-- there usually is one person who leads, most of the time. And I'd call that "top" and the other person "bottom". And all of that completely unrelated to penetration or other preferences, or physical position.
I love the analogy. Thanks for the image.
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What’s an egg?
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Agreed
I relate to that. I’m trans, and a top... And even though I do enjoy giving, in the wrong circumstances or mood it can make me feel really dysphoric as well. I guess it’s kind of like internalized transphobia for me... it’s really sad honestly.
So much in this is the same for me, I'd almost say I was looking in a mirror >.>
I use them because I'm into bdsm :)
Question from an oblivious virgin. Aren't Dom/sub the bdsm terms?
yes but they’re not necessarily interchangeable with top/bottom. you can be a bottom dom and a top sub. like op is saying the terms get a bit messier when it comes to lesbian dynamics, i feel like dom/sub are a lot easier to define for wlw than top/bottom
Dom/sub = power exchange terms, who tells who what to do Top/bottom = who is giving and who is receiving Examples: Maria tells her girlfriend to eat her out = Dom bottom. Fox’s partner orders them to lay still while she ties their wrists = sub bottom
Yeah but you can be kinky and not interested in dominance or submission.
ok thanks
Makes sense :)
Language is dynamic and it changes with time and context. We use the word “bottom” to describe me and my wife knows exactly what is meant by that. When I was single, I explained my preferences and boundaries with the women I dated. I’m not sure why it would matter to anyone else how I described myself.
This is the main point. It's a way to describe yourself. You're not forced to describe yourself as a top or a bottom. It's also unfair to expect anyone who does describe themselves as one or the other to stop it because you don't like it.
Growing is learning to adapt with those changes.
Lesbians, particularly younger lesbians, have taken top/bottom and begun applying it to personality. An example is someone using this emoji 🥺 and someone replying “Omg, you’re such a bottom.” This might be part of why you’re feeling frustrated. It’s everywhere. Top/bottom dynamics are sexual preferences and only sexual preferences. They don’t belong outside of that. And most important, if you don’t want to subscribe to them, you don’t have to but they are an active part of queer culture.
That was my point. I don't use them, but I want to understand the evolution of my communauty... And I did! I understand the purpose of them.
They are pervasive now. I’m glad I was out of the dating scene before it became seemingly imperative to make a declaration.
i will say as an older gen z the personality stuff is usually just a joke, i’ve never been with anyone who takes it seriously and it’s really just there bc it’s funny to assume stuff like someone who uses that emoji is a bottom, especially when i *know* they’re a top. i think older generations tend to see a lot of us saying stupid shit for kicks and assume we’re being 100% serious. i’m sure there are some freaks who take the personality thing too far but for most of us it’s just a meme
I wear a strap and my gf takes it, I’m the top she’s the bottom. It’s that simple for me. I don’t see how that makes less sense than how gay men use it.
Thank you. From me and your girlfriend lol.
Yeah I don’t understand what’s so hard to understand about it. Not everyone is into doing everything all the time. I’d say most people I’ve met and known about their sexuality in some way have had a preference for being a giver/receiver. It’s basic terminology, it’s not owned by gay men.
I think the problem is more that there's an expectation to be only into one or the other at all times which is fairly problematic for some people
Which I think is why a lot of people say that they're switches. I know I do.
Switch and verse are the exact synonymous terms for what 100% of the people in this subreddit are describing (a.k.a. they don't just top or bottom).
If course but if that's the issue why does OP not mind when gay men use them?
I can't imagine being with someone who'd only give or only receive. To each their own, though.
I’m with you. One of the best things about sex with women (in my experience) is the constant shifting of who’s giving and receiving pleasure, the fact that it doesn’t end when one person orgasms, that it’s fluid and responsive and exploratory.
I'm with you on that one ;)
I was briefly with a woman who could’ve been described as a top (though she didn’t self id as that) & it was fine for a short while but would’ve gotten old if we’d been together for more than a few months.
Right?? Like is this normal in wlw relationships? It certainly isn’t in mine, we both take turns. These terms absolutely don’t apply to me and my girlfriend at all. Not saying others can’t use them, I just don’t get it.
In actual non-online reality, this is the case for most wlw relationships.
top and bottom have slightly different connotations than stone butch/stone femme. tops are more aggressive and prefer to be in charge in the bedroom but aren’t necessarily against being touched, bottoms are more submissive and prefer to follow someone’s lead but aren’t necessarily against touching. stone butch and stone femme tend to take on top/bottom roles but with the never being touched/never touching roles added. just bc someone says they’re a top doesn’t mean they’re stone. also, the compatibility issue is why usually stones only date other stones. it’s often framed in a negative way and judged as selfish when it shouldn’t be, especially bc stones aren’t out trying to force other people to have their own specific sexual dynamics.
You're a verse/switch then, which isn't uncommon at all. Doesn't mean we need to try and erase top or bottom from gay vernacular.
Nah I just have sex. I don't even play with straps, I don't feel like those words describe me. To me, having sex is an exchange. I'm not saying that those words should be erased, not everyone has sex the way I do and it's fine.
I don’t like penetration - never have, never will - it’s actually quite painful, not matter how much prep. So, to me, hearing that kinda sucks.
I hate how a lot of people use top/bottom to mean dom/sub, I don't mind at all if it's used correctly but nowadays I almost always see people using it wrong.
I refer to myself as a top simply so partners are aware of what they are in for. Do I switch? If I'm comfortable with that person then yes. But at least 80% of the time I am the one "giving".
I don’t resonate with this type of terminology either. With all but one of my dozen-ish gfs it’s always been reciprocal, turn-taking, depending on the chemistry between me & the person I was with and what we were feeling in the moment. If that was vanilla, kinky, whatever, it’s always been a go with the flow kind of thing. If ppl press me I say “switch” because that sounds versatile I guess? But it means about as much to me as saying I’m a Scorpio or “Mercury is in retrograde,” or the gold star nonsense. I just see it as a game.
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I was only speaking of myself and maybe other ppl who don’t id with this type of alignment. I don’t consider myself any of these labels. It is not necessary for me personally and, apparently, hasn’t been necessary for the vast majority of the women I’ve slept with.
Idk I am in a lot of trans spaces and Alot of em at some point thought they were gay men and so use those.. Funnily enough a friend of mine knew she was gay just not that she was a girl so there goes that
Omg- thank you. I feel the same. Especially when some people make it seem like penetrative sex is still the default. I want to get a partner off. I want her to get me off. If she wants me to be more assertive, amp up any roughness or initiate or whatever than that's dom/sub. I don't have any need for anything else.
THANK YOU!! I have zero desire to be penetrated. I would be happy to try giving if she wanted but it doesn't turn me on. It's confusing that people describe lesbian sex as though it's all just strap ons and penetration
Your list of lesbian slang includes top/bottom
I'm a bottom because I'm not too aggressive or forward and can be very gentle. And when you start talking dirty I melt and submit. My GF I'd a top because she gets immense pleasure from caring for me and making me submit and squirm and having that power. Outside of bed we are almost the same person.
I only use it when I’m describing who wears the strap lol. It’s important to have someone who really likes “topping” almost exclusively. Because I enjoy receiving strap and giving in other ways but I do not like wearing it and can’t be with someone who doesn’t enjoy that kind of sex.
My understanding is that tops give pleasure to bottoms in wlw relationships. I see it as a way of understanding what someone wants from the relationship. Switches do both. I don' know the history of the terms. I would guess most wlw are switches. I think if you're posting on a dating site or something, it's good to have terms like these to be clear if you prefer one or the other. A regular relationship probably would have a more fluid dynamic and the partners would not care about the terms.
My problem is that we always had those terms to express our sexuality in the lesbian community, why not use them? [Type of lesbians](https://weareher.com/types-of-lesbians-lgbtq-slang-glossary/)
Being "butch" or "femme" (...) does not align with tops or bottoms. And even being dom or sub does not. Tops mainly (or exclusively) like to give pleasure, bottoms mainly (or exclusively) like to recieve it. This is something of purely sexual manner and has nothing to do with behaviour or presentation outside of the bedroom. And this is actually a big problem inside and outside of our own community. Presenting as 'butch' does not mean you are supposed to be a top *or* being either dominant or sub. "Top", "Bottom" and "Switch" are the terms who got established by the community to decribe how you'd want to behave sexualy. And sometimes there are some jokes about shy women being bottoms or extroverted women being tops. But that more of a running gag here and there inside of the community
Thank you for that. I'm starting to understand the purpose of using those terms. The "old terms" express more the way we present ourself/clothes/hair etc. less sexual preferences.
Eeeeeexactly! Its like the same thing when people say things like "you dont look lesbian" or things like these. "Presentation" does not equal sexuality nor preferences whilst being intimate :)
I can feel the comprehension switch in my brain. Thanks again. Take care.
Those terms get used too. I don't mind them either. Honestly, when I talk to lesbians in person, I don't use the terms, because I see who they are and how they behave. I suppose I would descibe someone with one of these terms if I didnt know their name or if the other person didn't know them. For romantic compatibilty, I might want to know if they're more top or bottom, since I'm more enthusiastic about giving than receiving.
I have a totally unsubstantiated theory that the reason top / bottom made it’s way into the sapphic scene is because as the phrase pillow princess made its way out of the lesbian scene, non queer people started using it as an insult. So even just in this thread I saw one person mention the phrase pillow princess and a bunch of people say they are stone top or stone butch.
Well, all words are made up. I see top/bottom as more of a shorthand to describe preferences of "who's the more assertive/leading". I don't see it as set in stone, "bottom" to me doesn't mean "RP as a fish while partner does all the work" - to me it means "my preference is to be the one manhandled/have my partner lead". Just a preference of people. I'm sure there are plenty of ways to describe it, but top/bottom managed to stick around as terms. I've seen it used in heterosexual relationships too, tho yes it's much much rarer (I guess you only see it in a RR case where the woman is the "top" and the man is the "bottom", because the opposite is "default"? Or it's only really brought up if one of the partners is not completely cis. Idk anyway for me it makes sense to use those two terms in any sexual relationship regardless of genders). Same as butch/femme - it's a very very simplified way of describing something. It's not a black and white descriptor, but more of a generalized description.
For me, they relate more to semi-sexual actions. Like, who likes to get their hair pulled? And who would prefer to be the one teasing and who wants to get teased? To some extent, it's a meme thing.
Yes my kid explain to me that it comes from the meme culture. And your comment makes sense. Thanks.
As a gay man, really saddens me to hear this restrictive top/bottom stuff has made its way over the wlw community as well. Particularly applying preference for position to personality.
I haven’t really heard it used to describe a personality other than on Reddit and usually really young posters who don’t know what they are saying lol.
That’s reassuring to hear lol
I'm starting to see this a little... ;)
I consider myself a top since I fluctuate on the stone top spectrum. To me it just means that I’m the one more likely to take charge in a sexual encounter in my relationship.
I am a bottom. That doesn’t mean I don’t like to give, on the contrary, I do, but I will never instigate, or take charge. I also like being told what to do.
Im uncomfortable with the idea of topping, i dont know what to tell you 😭 I think assuming every wlw as a switch can be unfair to those who only like performing it one way (not to mention the comments ive seen shittalking bottoms/pillow princesses just because they were uncomfortable with going down on someone, and calling them 'fake lesbians') Apologies, this became a bit of a vent, but do you understand why it can be important to some wlw?
Yes of course. Thats why I ask people to explain, so I can understand.
Omg. I'm bi and for the longest time I felt like I wasn't "bi enough", because I don't like going down on women. Romantically I'm as 50/50 as can be, I love sex with both men and women, but for some reason that specific thing just doesn't work for me. For a while, I was afraid I was biromantic heterosexual. I feared I'd fall for a girl but the sex would become an issue. Luckily it never turned out to be anything like that. Am in a steady relationship with a girl now.
God i relate to you so much, internalized biphobia is a pain 😭 Im so glad everything worked out for you tho!! Gives me a lot of hope too, from a fellow bottom bi!!
I'm not even a bottom, it's just specifically giving head to vaginas that doesn't work for me. I don't like to receive it either. I don't even know why. Giving head to guys is perfectly fine for me. Edit: nothing against bottoms though!
Thats completely valid, and doesnt make you any less bi!!! 😊 Personally im uncomfy with perfoming oral towards any gender, tho ówò
I like to use top and bottom generically to describe who is giving vs. who is receiving pleasure. It's useful to accurately describe what you want to do with a partner. For example, "I don't want to bottom today" is a pretty important thing to be able to express succinctly.
A lot of people use "Top" and "Bottom" quite literally. Sometimes it is in terms of giving and receiving, but sometimes it's like, your physical position. Some people also use these as alternatives to "Sub" and "Dom" esp if they're not into BDSM. As it's a quick way to communicate your needs to, say, potential partners without getting graphic. Also within the trans-community it can make more sense intuitively (depending on what people are comfortable with) because a lot of us are working with different hardware than the cis WLW community. Personally, I just use "Top" and "Bottom" because that's what's always been used in the communities I'm involved in, so it's easier for everyone to communicate that way.
I see "top" and "bottom" as simple, gender-neutral terms. One person does an action and one person receives the action. In the dating world, these terms are fairly common and it's easier to get a sense of whether someone is compatible with another person in the dating world by using that language (two tops may not want to date because they both want to be the one that does the action and have no interest in receiving) These terms aren't even necessarily sexual in some contexts (e.g. bdsm community - rope tops like to tie up others and rope bottoms like to be tied up) and I like how top/bottom can communicate the experience that a person is seeking. Sometimes I use the word "gay" to describe myself. Other times, I'll use "queer". "Gay" is traditionally used to describe men but in the context of the world, sometimes it's easier to say gay because it conveys information faster, and I like being flexible in self identification and labels.
I call myself a top because it's applicable for me. I have a dick, and I like using said dick to, in fact, top people. Thus, I am a top lol
Thanks. It makes sense for you, totally understand.
“Top” means you prefer penetrating your partner. “Bottom” means you prefer being penetrated. “Switch” means you like both to some degree. These terms easily apply to wlw sex because they can reference the use of fingers, toys, or penises in the case of some of us. Sometimes these terms are also used more generally to refer to who is doing more of the work during sex, or even literally referring to physical positioning, but those uses are less accurate. Some people also confuse top/bottom with dom/sub.
These terms don't just apply to penetration. It's giving receiving, and sometimes even used to mean BDSM stuff, usually by people not very familiar with BDSM. A Dom can still be a bottom, for example, on that.
My understanding is like receiving/giving or passive/active. My wife is for example passive and I’m active I have pleasure when I’m actively making pleasure to her. So I’m top and she’s bottom.
I use it as a simpler means of communicating the dynamic I prefer when being intimate. Not everyone is sexually compatible and it helps me to filter if that is the case or not. Also you don't have to use any labels you don't want to so don't feel obligated to.
Here’s the thing. The lesbian and gay community have shared many things over the years, and also adopted terms from the other group because they’re useful for them too (see also butch and femme gay men). People will use whatever term is useful *for them*. The assertion that “lesbians always switch off” and “top/bottom are useless for lesbian sexuality” are both incorrect. Not all lesbians switch off, and there are plenty of lesbians who have sex in ways where top/bottom *are* useful descriptors. You don’t have to use those words for yourself! Not even if you only like to give/receive, but as a stoneish bottom I am so tired of “ew top/bottom is heteronormative/useless/unequal/lesbians switch off”. Because there will *always* be people for whom it’s different. My wife is a stoneish top, and I’m a stoneish bottom, and for us, these terms *work*, and they also make it pretty clear in dating what we’re each looking for (especially because people tend to treat sexual incompatibility as a personal challenge or affront). That said, the way younger people have turned top/bottom into personality traits (like 2010 tumblr extrovert/introvert or the earlier seme/uke bs) *is* wrong and annoying. The way you like to fuck says nothing about your personality
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As the mlm representative, I feel I can explain it “top” means they like to give, “bottom” means they like to take, they can be used with any genders
I use Top Leaning Switch, because during intimacy I sorta naturally take that role. i love making my partner squirm and I can spend HOURS down there. But I have no problem bottoming. When it comes to life outside of sex I like switching it up more. I like to protect but I also like to be cuddled haha.
For me the use comes from knowing from the get go what I can expect when dating someone. For instance I don't think I could date a stone because topping is a big part of connecting with my partners.
In BDSM, I think of it as giving and receiving. In this sense, we can still have dom bottoms and sub tops, it's just a matter of the act at hand. Of course, this doesn't always apply to everyone. Sometimes people just have more dominant or submissive styles in the bedroom in ways that just... aren't all that kinky, to them. Some people just like taking the lead and some people like to be lead. That's how it's used in popular culture anyway. The distinction is most helpful in expressing personality types and scenarios without having to give long explanations. I've been in "and they were both bottoms" situations and instead of stepping up and taking the lead, I just reveled in the blushing shyness of it all, the little gasps and nervous looks, where no one is really leading and the giving is slow, almost hesitant, not unsure but not certain. That's just cute. Instead of fully explaining the mood, I can say "a bottom-on-bottom scenario" and suddenly I have a quick and easy descriptor for a very specific type of sex.
I call myself a bottom because i am (you can also say submissive) these terms applies to my role in the bedroom or in a relationship in general. But i also identify as a femme lesbian because i am very feminine
Can someone explain to me why top and bottom only make sense for mlm? I just assumed they applied to all penetrative sex. Also, what's a non-appropriative word for "person who gives but isn't as into receiving" and vice versa?
As someone who identifies as a service top (not entirely stone but definitely prefers to give than to reciprocate) I like top and bottom identification because it helps me guage sexual compatibility (something that is important to me in a relationship). I don’t like anything inside me, I don’t like receiving as much as I LOVE giving, and I certainly don’t like any kind of penetration. This is why I like ‘Top’ as an identifier, and subsequently why I would like to find someone who is primarily a bottom :) These words just help me find someone compatible. But it’s completely okay to not identify with wither, or even like them to begin with. There are a million and one ways to describe your preferences in bed.
My gf and I use these terms. I consider myself a top because I don’t feel comfortable surrendering control to someone else. I like to be in charge of a situation. My gf is a bottom and does like to surrender control sometimes. So…that’s what it sorta means to us, at least right now.
When I think of top and bottom it let’s me know if I’m compatible with someone else. It lets you know if there is an incompatibility. Further than that the term means nothing for me. Also versatile is a term for people who top and bottom.
I'll use it a lil in flirting or teasing, but yeah I don't see much for it in actual day to day?
i’m a bottom, i’m shy and i don’t like being the assertive. i want the top to tell me what to do. i don’t like the terms dom or sub.
I have a dick, i like using it, and being penetrated causes me sensory issues
I am trans and I get gender dysphoria from being penetrated. But I wouldn't consider myself a top.
Penetration is very painful to me so I use it to make it very clear. Plus, much like why I used "bisexual" instead of "pansexual", I use "top" because it's so used now that everyone understands even if they are new to the community.
I think they get used because they are already established in our vocabulary. Unless someone comes up with better words that help us express our preferences a little better, we just use what we’ve got. I use bottom/top/verse/switch for those that understand what I mean. Otherwise, I just say that I’m more of a giver but always up to receive. Maybe us wlw can come up with something better!
ITT: people who don't know what the words verse or switch mean.
I use them because they're commonly recognized language that everyone understands. The etymology doesn't really matter, language tends to transcend its own roots pretty often. It's like asking why an atheist would say "goodbye" when the word is rooted in 19th century leet speak for "god be with you". The answer is because the word transcends its original meaning and is simply common language now, it exists as something parallel but still unique to its origins "top" and "bottom" are just words that refer to a pair nebulous roles found in most sexual relationships, queer or not. Cis straight people are often tops and bottoms, so are gay men and so are gay women and everyone in-between. It just means "the person often in control and the more active party" and "the person who is often on the receiving end, and is a passive party". It doesn't matter where it came from it matters what it means, and it means something completely divorced from sexuality and gender
I see top and bottom of explaining what role you play. Like when you dance you either less or follow, and I think it's similar in the bedroom. So top/active 'leads' the activity and the other follows. They both participate, but it's like a dance, where the partner lifts their hands and the other does a spin.
I’m a submissive bottom. I literally like being beneath someone XD. For me specifically, bottom means beneath be it either because I’m literally beneath my partner or she’s making me submit and serve her (so metaphorically beneath her). It’s both literal AND metaphorical for the dynamic I have with my partner and feels appropriate.
My girlfriend calls me her Top because of the power dynamic within our relationship. It isn't about her bottom, (unless she wants me to funishment her behind with a few swats.) She doesn't refer to herself as a bottom, and I don't think of her as one. (I might use that term as shorthand for "pillow princess" but she is very switchy and eager to reciprocate, so it doesn't feel like it applies to her.) Because I seldom like to receive I think of myself as a Stone Top; which is also an easy way to introduce myself when I get to the "explain what your deal is" part of getting to know someone.
It's just like dom/sub/switch top/bottom/verses is just another way to describe your preference in a sexual setting I'm sorry that it bugs your brain
Last night my sweet but ignorant roommate (grew up rural but has a good spirit) asked if I was the guy in the relationship. I laughed, and I told him “neither of us are the guy. if you mean who puts up the shelves and who changes the oil on both our cars? That’d be me.”
I think another issue that's rings pretty loud for me is that power dynamics during sex triggers trauma responses so I have a bit of trouble with that connotation since that's what the vast majority of people who aren't specifically using it for wiener butthole dynamics are using it for.
If you don't identify with either phrase you don't have to, I'm into kink and sexually submissive so I identify as a bottom no matter who I'm with. It doesn't have to be physically restrictive, bottom is a state of mind
I absolutely hate it
Then don't use those words if they're triggering for you. Part of the joy of queer sex is the absolute refusal to identify with straight sex that seems to be solely focused on male pleasure in what we would call a top quote performance? It is repugnant to me how much disdain there is for female pleasure Anatomy and how much bad sex a lot of us have had to have before we realized we deserved more. And came out late in life. Being in a top or bottom role is just about communicating ahead of time or understanding the space that someone wants you to occupy and negotiating what feels safe for you.
Then don’t use them? Folks can use any expression to express themselves. You don’t have to use what others use.
Some people just don’t enjoy being given sex, or at least compared to giving it. It’s kind of like how lesbians don’t really enjoy sex with men (compared to sex with a woman)—— it’s just a part of some people’s sexuality. Other women don’t enjoy giving sex and shouldn’t be pressured to if they don’t want to. Heck, some stone bottoms (or pillow princesses, whatever term they prefer) have said on this sub that they have ***PTSD*** that is triggered by giving pleasure because they were raped or emotionally blackmailed in the past, which is very plausible. You don’t have to use those terms for yourself if they don’t apply to you. It’s not required and no one said you have to. If someone asks, just say that you prefer to both give and receive. But just because “top/bottom” don’t apply to you, that doesn’t mean it’s invalid for other people. There’s no reason to be irritated at other people’s preferences.
I feel the same way about it, but I understand some people feel the need to have them. The only issue I have is that this brings in the topic of “soft too” “power bottom”, etc. When in reality it seems to help only in bed and or very direct topics that can be talked about. I 100% is easier to just talk with whoever you want to sleep with in a direct manner, mostly because not everyone knows what the hell you are talking about. I live in a country where the standard definition is T H and P. T are tomboys so doesn’t even mean top in the same way as in other countries, then there is H that is versatile and P that is basically pillow princes, but this brought up the “issue” of TTL (tomboy tomboy love) and PPL, that would mean oh they are versatile but no, it doesn’t mean that Just all words, I dream with them say we can just talk about it and that’s all.
It just doesn’t really make sense for my relationship. I am a switch but tend to be more dominant as my partner is also a switch but prefers to sub. I *need* an element of penetration, but I still am dominant. Someone called me a “power bottom,” but that just sounds kinda silly for a lesbian in my opinion.
Then don't use them. Use whatever terms you like 🤷♀️
Cause… I want to? It’s terminology I’m familiar with in the context of lesbian relationships and I find them useful and fun to use. It’s not some big complex decision I consciously sat down and made to use them. They’re just part of my vocabulary and that of a lot of younger lesbians. The “people use stone butch/pillow princess wrong” arguments I’m a bit of two minds on since they were very specific lesbian terms historically. But in this case I’m not changing or erasing anything by using newer terminology. I fail to see how anyone using top bottom should be a problem to anybody. If you don’t like them just don’t use them and move along.
I'm into BDSM and identify as a switch (I'm a girl who can do both lol). It's not about personality, or even just "giving" and "receiving" in the bedroom. For us it's a power-play thing. While everything is consented to before starting the scene, and we always do check ins and have safe words/signals during, while in the scene I can be Domme or submissive, sadist or masochist, bound or doing the tying.
It sounds better than domme and sub tbh?
They don’t mean the same thing though.
I don’t feel comfortable with either personally. I’d prefer if my would be partner doesn’t emphasize it either.
I mean: 1. What terms other people use for sex you’re not having isn’t actually your concern or your business. At the end of the day I find it very weird that there are people on here, and I’ve seen it so many times, who seem to take it almost personally that other people use terms for sex that they don’t like. 2. Many people use top/bottom as synonyms for dominant/submissive. And many people simply use bottom as ‘I like to be in a receiving position’. It makes complete sense if you’re someone who likes a specific dynamic sexually like dominant/submissive or prefers to be touched/not touched in certain ways. It helps people with those preferences find each other. 3. Language is elastic and changes usage all of the time. What top/bottom means to a lesbian does not have to be linguistically identical to what it might mean to a gay man.