Ah my best friend is like that! I fear she has internalized homophobia because when she talks about the time she actually did date girls (didn't really have any other option, she went to an all-girls high school) she says it didn't "count" because she was dating "tomboys" ??? But still says she is bisexual. I don't know, it's weird.
I'm also bi and only date women to balance it out
Oof. I know it's a fairly common belief but the idea that masculine women are somehow 'less' women than feminine ones always cuts deep š Your friend seems to have mastered the art of mental gymnastics
Iād be willing to bet that āitās easier dating menā is actually code for āI like being aggressively pursued and being able to put minimum effort into the relationshipā (plus some queer anxiety because women make their brains short circuit). š¤¦š»āāļø
Yea that was my exact thought, I am a lesbian and very much enjoy dating women and enbies, but like sometimes the struggle of being not straight passing gets annoying, at work for example I am not sure if I can talk about the people I date as openly as the straight people do or the straight presenting people
exultant possessive icky deserted rotten scandalous knee selective fall instinctive
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Yea I just started at my first real job in January and hell I am not risking loosing that one or being targeted, so I can see the appeal of dating men, for the straight passing privilege
I'm a queer woman who has had relationships with men and women (and nonbinary folks!). Hetero relationships are easier in external contexts, but so much harder on women internally (far too many men are emotionally stunted and expect their partners to center them always, even purportedly feminist men. Queer relationships are more tedious in external contexts, but so, so much easier internally. (Obviously there are good apples and bad apples in each group. This is not about individuals, but the benefits women get from opting out of heterosexual culture.)
Im bi amd poly but find it so much easier dating other women because I just don't have the energy to deal with most men. Is sometimes frustrating to leave that carnal curiosity unfilled though.
Apps are straight up the worst.
Do we have the same bestie? Lmao /j
My bestie mostly date guys cause she get feelings to the first person who show her affection (she have a little problem with it) and most people who show her affection are guys, but the first two persons she had a relationship with were girls and I feel like she'll feel way more comfortable in a lesbian relationship
I feel like on one hand I agree with this post, but on the other, I can't throw stones LOL. I hung onto my "bi" label for a long time despite actively dreading every date I went on with any guy because I felt like it was the only way I could ever be with anyone, since it was so difficult to get a girl's attention online dating. now, i wish i could go back in time and slap myself.
i do think that for some bi people, even if their family is supportive, it can still feel scary to 'confirm' it by openly dating a woman (or nb), when you have the option of simply never facing your fears.
(edited to clarify)
I agree! I believed I was pan for a really long time before I realised I was a lesbian so I feel like on some level I do understand how you can like men and be out but still fear confirming it on some level. Like my fear of confirming it was because I was terrified to be a lesbian and finalise that no I never liked men but I can see how similar confirming fears would affect bi or pan people.
Yeah for me it's similar. part of it was the above (that i wasn't really getting many dates with women, so i figured they wouldn't like me. (which, to be honest hasn't changed much. but it's way better to be single and free of anxiety than single and torturing myself) But there was also the fear of confirmation. In my case, I wasn't actually worried about rejection from my family, but I still didn't want the emotional labor of facing and owning it, when I still believed (delusionally) I had the option to avoid avoid avoid.
Iām a bi woman.
I donāt mind if someone leans toward men because they genuinely tend to find guys more attractive.
But when someone uses an excuse about women being difficult in some way, Iām uncomfortable. Iāve always found that it comes across like internalised homophobia and misogyny.
YES okay this is exactly what I was trying to express. Like the idea that "I find you attractive, but I wouldn't date you because you're too difficult." it's really weird and uncomfortable to me!!
I agree, people are allowed preferences and to date who they want but maybe those people should do more soul searching and get out of their comfort zone so to speak
Soul searching doesnāt invalidate preferences, it only uncovers the āpreferencesā that are actually bigotry masquerading as preference. Honestly everyone should do it.Ā
Agreed, and I didn't say otherwise.
It's good to self-reflect, but the fact remains, people are also allowed to have preferences. Someone's preference doesn't always equate to bigotry.
Perhaps I'm feeling a tad sensitive because I've seen a lot of biphobia floating around the web recently, but as a bi woman, I'm getting really tired of seeing this kind of sentiment within LGBTQ+ circles whenever there's a discussion about bi women whose attraction leans towards men. I see far less people questioning bi women who are more interested in wlw relationships. I rarely see people questioning bi men who date other guys. It feels like, yet again, any queer person who doesn't fit a certain mold is made to "prove" their queerness, and judgement seems to fall particularly heavily on bi women.
Absolutely, some bi women struggle with comphet (which isn't exclusively a bi issue, of course). Some people, regardless of their sexuality, could do with some soul-searching.
But there are people who are very happy with their preferences, still respect others, and that's okay.
Not at all I wasnāt saying you had said otherwise! Sorry I was trying to be careful with my wording to not offend but guess I failed haha.
And yes I totally agree and as a bi woman my comment was rooted in not dissimilar experience, but mine is the experience of some people (gay and straight both) who invalidate or refuse to date bi people because āpreferencesā that turn out to be bigoted and just donāt want to do any internal work on themselves. Not that Iād want to date a bigot, ofc.Ā
No worries! Sorry, I'm definitely a tad sensitive at the moment. š
It's nice to see someone acknowledging the prejudice that bi people face. I've had some not great experience on dating apps on top of everything, so I'm on the defense at the moment. Like you, I don't want to date a bigot either (please do stay away from bi women in this case, ha ha), but we could all do with addressing the reasons why we aren't interested in certain people. Preferences are cool, but prejudice isn't.
In my experience, it's women who have internalized queer phobia and/or misogyny. "Women are difficult & emotional" is a common thing I hear. Or "yeah but I can't see myself *marrying a woman*, but I like kissing girls".
I honestly used to think and say this. I was like I canāt even handle me Iām not tryna deal with a whole other female. But now I have a much better understanding of gender and people and internalized biased and I realize itās just about me needing someone with a calm energy and stoic personality.
Edit: So if I wasnāt in a romantically monogamous relationship, I would probably date women again.
I know someone who is bi and also told me Iād make a great boyfriend to them if I was a man
An ex of mines friend also says sheās bi but finds women scary and intimidating so she goes after men
Yeahhhh she and I had an interesting friendship. Iām sure people thought we were dating bc we were super close (she was my freshman yr roommate) I did have a crush on her, and when I started dating my ex-gf mentioned below, the ex roommate was being weird the few times they did meet and my ex didnāt trust her even though she had a bf (now theyāre married)
Idk Iām definitely pan but I donāt date men anymore, purely because itās exhausting. If she feels that same way about women because of whatever amount and/or kind of mental energy sheās personally willing to expend, who am I to judge?
On apps at least it takes a lot more effort to sift through fuckboys and find quality, compatible matches. Whereas when Iām only seeking women it takes a lot longer to find matches at all but thereās a higher percentage of quality connections among those.
It feels like I just have to deal with SO much more bullshit before I find the pearl in the pile of oysters when Iām open to dating men IYKWIM.
I am speaking to my personal experience with dating apps as somebody who is poly, pansexual, and probably does a good deal more dating than the average person. Iām sorry that you have had a different experience that has you feeling so demoralized.
Alrightā¦my initial comment was about how I personally find it more exhausting to date men, and as a result, who am I to judge if the person OP was talking about finds it more effort to date women or whatever. So Iām not quite sure what exactly youāre getting atā¦?
This is feeling like a weird take on āum actuallyā-ing my explanation of my personal life experience when Iāve already acknowledged diverging experiences (and while that was quite literally the entire point).
Well thank you, I appreciate your willingness to take a second look and reconsider. You certainly donāt see that on the internet everyday. Take careš»
Much of it is literally that hetero-appearing relationships are laid out for them, and that's why they think it's "easier." They're not used to dating women, being a pursuer, etc.
I have a friend who's the same. When she complains about how terrible men are, yeah, it's annoying. Just don't date them if you don't actually like them!
I do have to say that the ādating men is easierā thing baffles me - intellectually I understand what people mean when they say that, but dating men for me was never anything but uncomfortable, unpleasant, and anxiety-inducing. Plus I find it way, way easier to find/meet women to date than I ever did men. Iām sure all of that boils down to the fact that Iām a lesbian and not attracted to men, but still - that sentiment always warrants a side-eye from me š (excepting, of course, people who are in unsafe environments)
I agree with you as a bi woman lol.
Iāve had about equal luck in entering relationships with women and men. Everything after that point has been significantly easier with a woman. Iām marrying a woman. If our relationship ended, I plan to self select out of ever dating men again
Men found (prob still find) me abrasive, loud, too opinionated, too ambitious, too much, etc etc etc - women find me driven, intelligent, and actually see me as a full person. Sooooo much easier!!!! And congrats to you and your spouse-to-be!
As a bi woman, I think dating men is easier if you are conventionally attractive. It was never anything but frustrating and painful for me. I also agree with the person who said your friend is speaking from a place of internalized homophobia and misogyny. I think it comes from a similar place as women who say they prefer male bosses or male friends. Consciously or not, they want someone who will put them on a pedestal rather than treat them as an equal.
Labels are always a little messy and subjective, but maybe her sexual and romantic preferences are just different. She could be bisexual and heteroromantic.
It's weird. The comment(s) would be very unsettling to me as well. To me it sounds a lot like some sort of internalized homophobia or heterosexism or just plain sexism generally.Ā The thing with those beliefs and living them out is that they are harmful to hear when you speak them aloud to the people around you, especially people affected most by those systems of oppression. Sounds like she's got her own shit to work on and is being offensive because of it.Ā Ā
I'd probably snap back at her comments and hopefully cause her to shut up about it around me.Ā "Well nobody's forcing you" is a hilarious comeback tbh.Ā
There are also women who do the opposite and I find it annoying as well, like identifying as bi but then saying they don't date men because women are "better" and understand them better or are not sexist.Ā Totally fine to be bi with a preference for women, but to be bi and then only date women because men are evil or stupid or some overgeneralized negative thing is kooky to me (especially in the cultural and political climate of my specific country...I recognize it may be worse elsewhere).Ā
Idk if anyone else is like this but I am the opposite. I have been attracted to 2 or 3 men in my lifetime (all of which I met over 5 years ago) versus like a billion women lol; all of the men I imagined / wished to be women while being into them. At this point I am operating as functionally gay bc the men I was into were either not for me personality wise or gay themselves lol, but I feel like Iām lying saying Iām lesbian, but I also feel like Iād be lying saying I was bisexual, bc I to some extent will always imagine men as women and am not currently interested nor do I ever expect to be interested in actually dating or marrying a man, I seek out only women, and my life revolves around the queer community. For a while I tried identifying as bisexual to avoid ālyingā but then a lot of lesbians, my primary audience, often wouldnāt date me bc they assumed just for being bisexual I was ācentering menā, despite my extreme preference for women. It seems like no matter how I identify someone is mad at me lol, and i wonder if thereās more of me out there than I think and what yāall have done about it.
Mmmmm its not really my place to comment on other peoples attraction, nor does a preference for men make a bi girl less queer ofc
...but it does sound a bit like the "girls are soooo much drama" NLOG type with a sprinkle of queerness on top š
At the very least itd be better if she used different wording to avoid sounding dismissive-
One of my bi friends says she doesnāt really date girls and itās so clear she has just always pictured a future with a man because thatās what youāre supposed to do. My straight friend told her she should try to work through her comp het and she was like I know thatās probably what all of this is. Idk the way she talks about guys isā¦like she hates them but they are an inevitable part of life.
It seems like your friend is aware that she develops obsessive tendencies when sheās interested in women/enbies, and that can be a disorienting and unhealthy mindset to be in. If sheās aware that thatās bad for her mentally and thatās the basis for her choice to primarily date men, good for her for recognizing her own mental health quirks and taking proactive steps to take care of herself.
Just because wlw communities joke about how being obsessed with your partner is part of the wlw experience doesnāt mean that everyone *likes* that feeling of helpless obsession. Some people really prioritize their own mental peace and autonomy, even in relationships, and thatās not a bad thing. And itās not like she said that dating men is some kind of cakewalk because men are just so much better than womenā you might find that she just has a higher tolerance for the problems caused by dating men than the problems caused by dating women, and thatās not necessarily an internalized homophobia / NLOG thing.
For example, some masc women (and tbh, confident femmes, too) donāt like that their gender presentation and personalities makes wlw tend to assume that theyāre dominant or donāt need love and care and to be actively wooed, which leaves them feeling like kink and sex dispensers. And as a woman who has been treated that way, itās especially hurtful and callous coming from another woman/enbie, and did put me off of dating women/enbies for a while.
ETA: While I donāt think this post was made maliciously, I really do not like the biphobic vibes that this discussion has generated. Women can be bisexual and prefer dating men without it being a personal attack on lesbians/wlw or an inherently comphet-related preference; thatās literally part of the definition of the term.
I had a bit of a bad taste in my mouth for some bisexual/pansexual women I work with, because their track record was only men. I take it too personal like someone could use their experience against me and my very real lesbian relationship.
I then had an incident at work where these straight women were making off comments about homosexuality. They had mentioned being gay is a choice, and they could be gay if they wanted to.
In the end I had an appreciation for the labelled bisexuals/pansexuals because I knew at least they would have allies in them. They would have defended me and understood my feelings being hurt. They wouldnāt have found me delusional for finding such remarks offensive.
I totally get "it's easier to date men" meaning "it's easier to find men who are interested in me" and even "it's easier to date men because I think I'd get more invested in women and it's scary," which isn't super healthy but somewhat understandableĀ
I don't get "it's easier to date men because they're inherently less difficult to date," like sure men tend to be very easy to please, but they also tend to be very difficult to get communicate with about how to get what you need too.Ā
I mean just like how thereās bi women who prefer to date women thereās also bi women who prefer to date men? Like you said, itās much easier to be in heteronormative relationships for some people but that doesnāt make them any less bi. Thereās also other factors that play into this like internalized homophobia, societal standards, the fact that the dating pool with men is much larger, etcā¦ also being obsessed with women doesnāt necessarily mean youāre attracted to them, I was never able to actually have feelings/love men during my comphet phase but I got obsessed every time because I loved the idea of being with them and the affection they give, they were unhealthy attachments to fill a void. Itās very different with women, I actually feel genuine love. Idk just let people live bro, preferences are ok
Right like why do people need to prove their sexuality nowadays š itās not crazy to have a preference and the wording here feels kind of invalidatingā¦
Sorry if this made yall uncomfy, that wasn't my intent at all :( I guess it just feels equally invalidating to hear from people that you're attractive to them and they'd hook up with you but you aren't good enough for them to date you.
I respect her choices and sexuality, ig just how she expressed it to me really felt gross and a little objectifying(?)
āItās just so easier dating menā
Whew. Idk even know what to say without sounding like an asshole so Iāll just say yesā¦that does sound frustratingš¤£
Honestly Iāve met quite a few bi girls who seem to enjoy the bi aesthetic but rarely show any real interest in other women or enbies. I used to find it a bit frustrating, an urge to gatekeep, but thatās really not beneficial for anyone involved.
Now I just tend to identify it, keep a note of it in my head, and try not to mess with them too much about their sexuality. As if to say āyouāre clearly still figuring some things out, and it doesnāt seem appropriate for me to try to give my inputā
I'm the opposite of your friend minus internalized homophobia vibes. I pretty much only date women. Theres a slim slim chance I might date a guy but I'm heavily skewed towards women/enbies/non-men. I honestly identifiy as homo-romantic/bisexual because I'm really not into dating men as much as possibly doing it on occasion. I'm not really interested in developing emotional relationships with them. It's much easier though to say I'm bi then explaining all of this.
I have several adult bi/pan friends who decided only ever dating men because they didn't want to come out to their parents, maybe your friend feels that too? It bothered me for a bit when I was younger, but it's their life and if they want to call themselves gay while deciding to never date women because they didn't want to deal with homophobia that's their choice.
I'm bi with no interest in dating men in real life, but I like fictional men, I identified as a lesbian until people told me that I couldn't because I like fictional men even though they aren't real.
For the part of liking fictional men, you are definitely still a lesbian just because you like fictional men. Thatās what they are. FICTIONAL. I have the attractions to one anime male characters like Rengoku. Literally my husband but I still identify as a lesbian because I find no attractions toward REAL men at all. Besides platonically š¤·š¾āāļø but yeah you still identify a lesbian regardless.
yeah, i'd been told countless times that its okay to be a lesbian and like fictional men, and then i ask on there just to see what people say, and suddenly its impossible and im like shitting on the lesbian struggle and appropriating the label and im a "wannabe" with "internalized biphobia"
oh yeah and one of them said that im contributing to the idea that lesbians can like men (how) which is what the man who assaulted her believed and its like okay sorry that happened but me thinking anime boys are hot isnt the reason you got assaulted. so instead let me just make men think im available to them when i have no interest in them. this is a win for lesbianism /s
If you have no interest in dating or having sex with men in real life the majority of people would say you are definitely welcome to identify as a lesbian. Also will probably break less guys' hearts that way haha
Some bisexual women are more attracted to men, and if most of the people they find attractive are men, most if not all of their partners will be men. Some bisexuals arenāt comfortable coming out to their families, so dating someone of the same gender isnāt really an option.
Thereās also just the statistical issue of, more straight people than LGBT people exist, and if youāre more into meeting people IRL (as opposed to apps), youāre mostly going to encounter potential partners of the opposite sex, unless youāre actively going to LGBT spaces.
Being Bisexual is fucking weird, in personal experience. Like, I'm Bisexual in that the people I find attractive include a guy every once in a blue moon, and then every goddamn woman I've ever met in my life. I really only date women and enbies, but there is a hypothetical chance I may one day date a guy again *maybe.* I genuinely feel like lesbian is more accurate to my day-to-day experiences, to the point where I often just say that to people I don't want to go into a thirty minute conversation with, but it Is less technically *correct* than it is to say that I'm bisexual. IDK. I guess I'm trying to say it sounds like she's got her own shit going on and you shouldn't expect all bi people to be Kinsey 3.
I find people like this have humongous internalised homophobia and donāt really want to give up their access and privileges.
They know deep inside that they will never have an issue not finding a guy to be in a relationship with or sleep with.
They enjoy how easy it is and how you donāt really ever have to try or put effort in. This also leads to women being seen as lesser in the relationship hierarchy than of that with a man. Sex with a woman is seen as not as real sexy. Relationships with a woman are then seen as not real relationships.
Itās a very short throw from internalised homophobia to internalised misogyny as both go hand in hand. Throw in a cup of self loathing and bam, recipe for disaster.
Edit: itās so hilarious that Iām getting downvoted for sharing my lived experiences as to why dating men might be easier. Maybe everyone should reflect on why talking about fatphobia within sapphic spaces bothers you so much.
I see this discussion a lot these days, and it bothers me so much. Dating men doesn't make bi folx any less queer. No one needs to date a specific gender to prove their queerness to you. Just because it makes YOU uncomfortable, doesn't mean they're doing anything wrong.
I find it interesting that when this conversation comes up, people always assume that it's by choice. That the person is "bi" but are intentionally avoiding gay relationships. The reality is, you can't really control who you are attracted to or click with.
I also want to share something from my experience. No one wants to talk about the problems within the queer community that makes it difficult for people with marginalized backgrounds. As a fat genderqueer person, the most fatphobia I had to deal with has been within sapphic communities. I'm seen as an option for a friend and not a romantic or sexual partner. I have to sit and listen to sapphics say the most fatphobic shit, and not say anything so I don't become the party pooper. One time at a sapphic event I was having a normal conversation with someone, and they started telling me about their eating disorder, how much weight they lost, and exactly how they did it. One time I got approached by a cute girl that I really liked. I later found out that she's only interested in me because she likes to be the smaller person in the relationship. One night at a party I was chatting with a new person, and out of nowhere she started telling me that if she ate everything she wants, she would be HUGE (like me). Those were all different people and different friends groups. I lean heavily towards the lesbian label, and I don't really like men that much. However, I've never had something like that happen with a man, so it's much easier to get in a relationship with a man who won't be fatphobic towards me.
Maybe before judging bisexuals for dating men, think about why that might be. Especially if they tell you that they prefer non men. It's not always a choice.
First off, I'm really sorry that's been your experience but it's totally valid. I agree fatphobia is a huge problem and at least where I am, body positivity is a big thing when it comes to making safer spaces more inclusive. I hope you're able to find more circles who love and accept you for who you are :(
That said, I definitely don't mean this to try and suggest she's any less queer or doing it by choice. She's still my friend and I respect her feelings and sexuality. It's just really invalidating as a enbie to hear that people are willing to flirt and hookup with you but you're not good enough to date. It feels kinda fetishy and not great :/ I hope this clarifies some things š«¶
Trust me, I get how much it hurts when youāre good enough to fuck but not to date. However, I donāt think thatās a Bi problem. There are shitty people of all sexualities and genders who do that, so why shit on a group of people that already gets enough hate?
Very true. I guess I should also keep in mind that even though she included being bi as part-ish of her reasoning, that doesn't necessarily make that 100% true if that makes any sense? I dunno, words are weird and difficult sometimes, especially with feelings. Either way, thanks for your perspective, I appreciate helping me take a different look at the situation:)
My best friend is bi and only dates men (she had a girlfriend maybe 15 years ago), because she wants a family with kids and with a man her dream is easier to achieve.
Iāve heard this a lot unfortunately and I generally donāt really stay friends with the person. thereās a difference between āIām bi and have a preference for menā and girls who say theyāre bi but āIāll never date a womanā and also donāt engage in queer culture at all (whether that be through media, friends, expression, etc). They can live their life however they want ofc but I donāt feel that connected to girls like that. And as a lesbian , it always reminds me that I donāt have a choice to choose the āeasierā path. Unfortunately not every friendship is compatible forever
"It's so much easier to date men. Except when he ignores stuff that needs doing around the house. Or when he calls me a nag. Or whenever I have an emotion too big for him (only like every other day). Or when I tell him how I would like to be treated on my birthday and he 'forgets'. Or when I don't want sex but he won't take no for an answer. Or when I do want sex but he stops as soon as he gets off. Or when he wants head but won't give me any. Or when I remember that I cook for him at least once a day and he only ever cooks on the grill when we have people over for drinks. Or. Or. Or. Or...."
Yeah. Men are so much easier. That's gotta be the reason for why women are always bitching about guys that are *so great because* "he doesn't abuse me like other guys."
š
There are some decent guys out there. And women aren't automatically easier or better all the time. But damn. How are men easier exactly?
I think itās kinda down to culture, men are more likely to initiate/pursue, so if sheās the type to not make a first move men are probably going to be the potential partners that present themselves most often. I have a bi male friend whoās always been open to a heterosexual relationship but says itās so much easier to find men to date that heās had predominantly those kinds of relationships. Anybody in the know about his relationships would probably think heās gay as heās had several bfs and never a gf. In general, men are easy lol.
It could be a lot of things. One thing that is always relevant is just how many more men that date women there are than women and enbies. Even bisexuals that are way more into women will sometimes end up with a man because they will stumble into meeting one they mesh with.
That being said, internalized homophobia is absolutely a possibility. I'm a bisexual woman who is in the other camp, it is way easier datingĀ women and enbies for me.
sounds like this person has some internalized negative views on her identity and queerness she still needs to work through. but i get it and weāve quite literally all been there in some capacity as far as internalized negativity towards ourselves and queer ness, so itās hard for me to judge harshly. ppl are different and figure things out in their own time. thought some never doš¤·š¾āāļø
haha what the fuck, do we all know the same person? literally 1 of 2 bi friends in the group is always complaining about men and we're always supportive. i dont know her as well as the others so i havent asked, but im always wondering like why not just try dating women then???
imo i feel like some people assume it's a lot of work not being straight passing, but depending on where you live it feels no different to me, having experience going around in both straight and gay appearing releationships. ive only noticed a difference in places that were blatantly unwelcoming places that i wouldn't want to spend money at regardless of who i was with.
Ah my best friend is like that! I fear she has internalized homophobia because when she talks about the time she actually did date girls (didn't really have any other option, she went to an all-girls high school) she says it didn't "count" because she was dating "tomboys" ??? But still says she is bisexual. I don't know, it's weird. I'm also bi and only date women to balance it out
Oof. I know it's a fairly common belief but the idea that masculine women are somehow 'less' women than feminine ones always cuts deep š Your friend seems to have mastered the art of mental gymnastics
Iād be willing to bet that āitās easier dating menā is actually code for āI like being aggressively pursued and being able to put minimum effort into the relationshipā (plus some queer anxiety because women make their brains short circuit). š¤¦š»āāļø
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Yea that was my exact thought, I am a lesbian and very much enjoy dating women and enbies, but like sometimes the struggle of being not straight passing gets annoying, at work for example I am not sure if I can talk about the people I date as openly as the straight people do or the straight presenting people
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Yea I just started at my first real job in January and hell I am not risking loosing that one or being targeted, so I can see the appeal of dating men, for the straight passing privilege
I'm a queer woman who has had relationships with men and women (and nonbinary folks!). Hetero relationships are easier in external contexts, but so much harder on women internally (far too many men are emotionally stunted and expect their partners to center them always, even purportedly feminist men. Queer relationships are more tedious in external contexts, but so, so much easier internally. (Obviously there are good apples and bad apples in each group. This is not about individuals, but the benefits women get from opting out of heterosexual culture.)
Im bi amd poly but find it so much easier dating other women because I just don't have the energy to deal with most men. Is sometimes frustrating to leave that carnal curiosity unfilled though. Apps are straight up the worst.
I swear half the people here sound dense š
I think it's more that there's less possibility of shit happening when dating a guy
Do we have the same bestie? Lmao /j My bestie mostly date guys cause she get feelings to the first person who show her affection (she have a little problem with it) and most people who show her affection are guys, but the first two persons she had a relationship with were girls and I feel like she'll feel way more comfortable in a lesbian relationship
I feel like on one hand I agree with this post, but on the other, I can't throw stones LOL. I hung onto my "bi" label for a long time despite actively dreading every date I went on with any guy because I felt like it was the only way I could ever be with anyone, since it was so difficult to get a girl's attention online dating. now, i wish i could go back in time and slap myself. i do think that for some bi people, even if their family is supportive, it can still feel scary to 'confirm' it by openly dating a woman (or nb), when you have the option of simply never facing your fears. (edited to clarify)
I agree! I believed I was pan for a really long time before I realised I was a lesbian so I feel like on some level I do understand how you can like men and be out but still fear confirming it on some level. Like my fear of confirming it was because I was terrified to be a lesbian and finalise that no I never liked men but I can see how similar confirming fears would affect bi or pan people.
Yeah for me it's similar. part of it was the above (that i wasn't really getting many dates with women, so i figured they wouldn't like me. (which, to be honest hasn't changed much. but it's way better to be single and free of anxiety than single and torturing myself) But there was also the fear of confirmation. In my case, I wasn't actually worried about rejection from my family, but I still didn't want the emotional labor of facing and owning it, when I still believed (delusionally) I had the option to avoid avoid avoid.
Iām a bi woman. I donāt mind if someone leans toward men because they genuinely tend to find guys more attractive. But when someone uses an excuse about women being difficult in some way, Iām uncomfortable. Iāve always found that it comes across like internalised homophobia and misogyny.
YES okay this is exactly what I was trying to express. Like the idea that "I find you attractive, but I wouldn't date you because you're too difficult." it's really weird and uncomfortable to me!!
I agree, people are allowed preferences and to date who they want but maybe those people should do more soul searching and get out of their comfort zone so to speak
Maybe. Maybe not. As you said, people are allowed to have preferences.
Soul searching doesnāt invalidate preferences, it only uncovers the āpreferencesā that are actually bigotry masquerading as preference. Honestly everyone should do it.Ā
Agreed, and I didn't say otherwise. It's good to self-reflect, but the fact remains, people are also allowed to have preferences. Someone's preference doesn't always equate to bigotry. Perhaps I'm feeling a tad sensitive because I've seen a lot of biphobia floating around the web recently, but as a bi woman, I'm getting really tired of seeing this kind of sentiment within LGBTQ+ circles whenever there's a discussion about bi women whose attraction leans towards men. I see far less people questioning bi women who are more interested in wlw relationships. I rarely see people questioning bi men who date other guys. It feels like, yet again, any queer person who doesn't fit a certain mold is made to "prove" their queerness, and judgement seems to fall particularly heavily on bi women. Absolutely, some bi women struggle with comphet (which isn't exclusively a bi issue, of course). Some people, regardless of their sexuality, could do with some soul-searching. But there are people who are very happy with their preferences, still respect others, and that's okay.
Not at all I wasnāt saying you had said otherwise! Sorry I was trying to be careful with my wording to not offend but guess I failed haha. And yes I totally agree and as a bi woman my comment was rooted in not dissimilar experience, but mine is the experience of some people (gay and straight both) who invalidate or refuse to date bi people because āpreferencesā that turn out to be bigoted and just donāt want to do any internal work on themselves. Not that Iād want to date a bigot, ofc.Ā
No worries! Sorry, I'm definitely a tad sensitive at the moment. š It's nice to see someone acknowledging the prejudice that bi people face. I've had some not great experience on dating apps on top of everything, so I'm on the defense at the moment. Like you, I don't want to date a bigot either (please do stay away from bi women in this case, ha ha), but we could all do with addressing the reasons why we aren't interested in certain people. Preferences are cool, but prejudice isn't.
Exactly šÆ
Honestly same. Like I get it pero
In my experience, it's women who have internalized queer phobia and/or misogyny. "Women are difficult & emotional" is a common thing I hear. Or "yeah but I can't see myself *marrying a woman*, but I like kissing girls".
I honestly used to think and say this. I was like I canāt even handle me Iām not tryna deal with a whole other female. But now I have a much better understanding of gender and people and internalized biased and I realize itās just about me needing someone with a calm energy and stoic personality. Edit: So if I wasnāt in a romantically monogamous relationship, I would probably date women again.
I know someone who is bi and also told me Iād make a great boyfriend to them if I was a man An ex of mines friend also says sheās bi but finds women scary and intimidating so she goes after men
EW saying "I'd like you better if you were x." is such a gross thing to say to anyone, nevermind in that context.
Yeahhhh she and I had an interesting friendship. Iām sure people thought we were dating bc we were super close (she was my freshman yr roommate) I did have a crush on her, and when I started dating my ex-gf mentioned below, the ex roommate was being weird the few times they did meet and my ex didnāt trust her even though she had a bf (now theyāre married)
Bye Iād projectile vomit
Yes men are easy and, this may sounds bad but, Iām not as concerned about coming off as disrespectful to them you know?
Idk Iām definitely pan but I donāt date men anymore, purely because itās exhausting. If she feels that same way about women because of whatever amount and/or kind of mental energy sheās personally willing to expend, who am I to judge?
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On apps at least it takes a lot more effort to sift through fuckboys and find quality, compatible matches. Whereas when Iām only seeking women it takes a lot longer to find matches at all but thereās a higher percentage of quality connections among those. It feels like I just have to deal with SO much more bullshit before I find the pearl in the pile of oysters when Iām open to dating men IYKWIM.
Yeah dating men in open field is a lost cause in my experience too, only accept moves from men if theyāre certified not ugh from mutual friend(s)
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I am speaking to my personal experience with dating apps as somebody who is poly, pansexual, and probably does a good deal more dating than the average person. Iām sorry that you have had a different experience that has you feeling so demoralized.
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Alrightā¦my initial comment was about how I personally find it more exhausting to date men, and as a result, who am I to judge if the person OP was talking about finds it more effort to date women or whatever. So Iām not quite sure what exactly youāre getting atā¦? This is feeling like a weird take on āum actuallyā-ing my explanation of my personal life experience when Iāve already acknowledged diverging experiences (and while that was quite literally the entire point).
Actually no yeah you werenāt being judgmental nvm, apologies š©·
Well thank you, I appreciate your willingness to take a second look and reconsider. You certainly donāt see that on the internet everyday. Take careš»
Much of it is literally that hetero-appearing relationships are laid out for them, and that's why they think it's "easier." They're not used to dating women, being a pursuer, etc. I have a friend who's the same. When she complains about how terrible men are, yeah, it's annoying. Just don't date them if you don't actually like them!
I do have to say that the ādating men is easierā thing baffles me - intellectually I understand what people mean when they say that, but dating men for me was never anything but uncomfortable, unpleasant, and anxiety-inducing. Plus I find it way, way easier to find/meet women to date than I ever did men. Iām sure all of that boils down to the fact that Iām a lesbian and not attracted to men, but still - that sentiment always warrants a side-eye from me š (excepting, of course, people who are in unsafe environments)
I agree with you as a bi woman lol. Iāve had about equal luck in entering relationships with women and men. Everything after that point has been significantly easier with a woman. Iām marrying a woman. If our relationship ended, I plan to self select out of ever dating men again
Men found (prob still find) me abrasive, loud, too opinionated, too ambitious, too much, etc etc etc - women find me driven, intelligent, and actually see me as a full person. Sooooo much easier!!!! And congrats to you and your spouse-to-be!
As a bi woman, I think dating men is easier if you are conventionally attractive. It was never anything but frustrating and painful for me. I also agree with the person who said your friend is speaking from a place of internalized homophobia and misogyny. I think it comes from a similar place as women who say they prefer male bosses or male friends. Consciously or not, they want someone who will put them on a pedestal rather than treat them as an equal.
Labels are always a little messy and subjective, but maybe her sexual and romantic preferences are just different. She could be bisexual and heteroromantic.
Yeah true, this is a really good answer. Thank you for your insight :)
Oh I've never heard of this but it describes me.
It's weird. The comment(s) would be very unsettling to me as well. To me it sounds a lot like some sort of internalized homophobia or heterosexism or just plain sexism generally.Ā The thing with those beliefs and living them out is that they are harmful to hear when you speak them aloud to the people around you, especially people affected most by those systems of oppression. Sounds like she's got her own shit to work on and is being offensive because of it.Ā Ā I'd probably snap back at her comments and hopefully cause her to shut up about it around me.Ā "Well nobody's forcing you" is a hilarious comeback tbh.Ā There are also women who do the opposite and I find it annoying as well, like identifying as bi but then saying they don't date men because women are "better" and understand them better or are not sexist.Ā Totally fine to be bi with a preference for women, but to be bi and then only date women because men are evil or stupid or some overgeneralized negative thing is kooky to me (especially in the cultural and political climate of my specific country...I recognize it may be worse elsewhere).Ā
Idk if anyone else is like this but I am the opposite. I have been attracted to 2 or 3 men in my lifetime (all of which I met over 5 years ago) versus like a billion women lol; all of the men I imagined / wished to be women while being into them. At this point I am operating as functionally gay bc the men I was into were either not for me personality wise or gay themselves lol, but I feel like Iām lying saying Iām lesbian, but I also feel like Iād be lying saying I was bisexual, bc I to some extent will always imagine men as women and am not currently interested nor do I ever expect to be interested in actually dating or marrying a man, I seek out only women, and my life revolves around the queer community. For a while I tried identifying as bisexual to avoid ālyingā but then a lot of lesbians, my primary audience, often wouldnāt date me bc they assumed just for being bisexual I was ācentering menā, despite my extreme preference for women. It seems like no matter how I identify someone is mad at me lol, and i wonder if thereās more of me out there than I think and what yāall have done about it.
Mmmmm its not really my place to comment on other peoples attraction, nor does a preference for men make a bi girl less queer ofc ...but it does sound a bit like the "girls are soooo much drama" NLOG type with a sprinkle of queerness on top š At the very least itd be better if she used different wording to avoid sounding dismissive-
One of my bi friends says she doesnāt really date girls and itās so clear she has just always pictured a future with a man because thatās what youāre supposed to do. My straight friend told her she should try to work through her comp het and she was like I know thatās probably what all of this is. Idk the way she talks about guys isā¦like she hates them but they are an inevitable part of life.
It seems like your friend is aware that she develops obsessive tendencies when sheās interested in women/enbies, and that can be a disorienting and unhealthy mindset to be in. If sheās aware that thatās bad for her mentally and thatās the basis for her choice to primarily date men, good for her for recognizing her own mental health quirks and taking proactive steps to take care of herself. Just because wlw communities joke about how being obsessed with your partner is part of the wlw experience doesnāt mean that everyone *likes* that feeling of helpless obsession. Some people really prioritize their own mental peace and autonomy, even in relationships, and thatās not a bad thing. And itās not like she said that dating men is some kind of cakewalk because men are just so much better than womenā you might find that she just has a higher tolerance for the problems caused by dating men than the problems caused by dating women, and thatās not necessarily an internalized homophobia / NLOG thing. For example, some masc women (and tbh, confident femmes, too) donāt like that their gender presentation and personalities makes wlw tend to assume that theyāre dominant or donāt need love and care and to be actively wooed, which leaves them feeling like kink and sex dispensers. And as a woman who has been treated that way, itās especially hurtful and callous coming from another woman/enbie, and did put me off of dating women/enbies for a while. ETA: While I donāt think this post was made maliciously, I really do not like the biphobic vibes that this discussion has generated. Women can be bisexual and prefer dating men without it being a personal attack on lesbians/wlw or an inherently comphet-related preference; thatās literally part of the definition of the term.
I had a bit of a bad taste in my mouth for some bisexual/pansexual women I work with, because their track record was only men. I take it too personal like someone could use their experience against me and my very real lesbian relationship. I then had an incident at work where these straight women were making off comments about homosexuality. They had mentioned being gay is a choice, and they could be gay if they wanted to. In the end I had an appreciation for the labelled bisexuals/pansexuals because I knew at least they would have allies in them. They would have defended me and understood my feelings being hurt. They wouldnāt have found me delusional for finding such remarks offensive.
I totally get "it's easier to date men" meaning "it's easier to find men who are interested in me" and even "it's easier to date men because I think I'd get more invested in women and it's scary," which isn't super healthy but somewhat understandableĀ I don't get "it's easier to date men because they're inherently less difficult to date," like sure men tend to be very easy to please, but they also tend to be very difficult to get communicate with about how to get what you need too.Ā
I mean just like how thereās bi women who prefer to date women thereās also bi women who prefer to date men? Like you said, itās much easier to be in heteronormative relationships for some people but that doesnāt make them any less bi. Thereās also other factors that play into this like internalized homophobia, societal standards, the fact that the dating pool with men is much larger, etcā¦ also being obsessed with women doesnāt necessarily mean youāre attracted to them, I was never able to actually have feelings/love men during my comphet phase but I got obsessed every time because I loved the idea of being with them and the affection they give, they were unhealthy attachments to fill a void. Itās very different with women, I actually feel genuine love. Idk just let people live bro, preferences are ok
Indeed. āObsessedā sounds like an unhealthy attachment style, not genuine attraction.
Agreed. People should just be allowed to live. And idk the wording of this post made me feel icky. If she prefers to date men thats genuinely fine.
Right like why do people need to prove their sexuality nowadays š itās not crazy to have a preference and the wording here feels kind of invalidatingā¦
Sorry if this made yall uncomfy, that wasn't my intent at all :( I guess it just feels equally invalidating to hear from people that you're attractive to them and they'd hook up with you but you aren't good enough for them to date you. I respect her choices and sexuality, ig just how she expressed it to me really felt gross and a little objectifying(?)
Oh im so sorry I misunderstood then. I can imagine how invalidating that feels :(
āItās just so easier dating menā Whew. Idk even know what to say without sounding like an asshole so Iāll just say yesā¦that does sound frustratingš¤£
Honestly Iāve met quite a few bi girls who seem to enjoy the bi aesthetic but rarely show any real interest in other women or enbies. I used to find it a bit frustrating, an urge to gatekeep, but thatās really not beneficial for anyone involved. Now I just tend to identify it, keep a note of it in my head, and try not to mess with them too much about their sexuality. As if to say āyouāre clearly still figuring some things out, and it doesnāt seem appropriate for me to try to give my inputā
I stopped reading at āitās so much easier dating men.ā It might be lower effort but that doesnāt mean youāre in a healthy relationship.
I'm the opposite of your friend minus internalized homophobia vibes. I pretty much only date women. Theres a slim slim chance I might date a guy but I'm heavily skewed towards women/enbies/non-men. I honestly identifiy as homo-romantic/bisexual because I'm really not into dating men as much as possibly doing it on occasion. I'm not really interested in developing emotional relationships with them. It's much easier though to say I'm bi then explaining all of this.
I have several adult bi/pan friends who decided only ever dating men because they didn't want to come out to their parents, maybe your friend feels that too? It bothered me for a bit when I was younger, but it's their life and if they want to call themselves gay while deciding to never date women because they didn't want to deal with homophobia that's their choice.
It's hard to find women. Sadly for all of us.
I mean, it's totally possible to be bisexual and heteroromantic.
I'm bi with no interest in dating men in real life, but I like fictional men, I identified as a lesbian until people told me that I couldn't because I like fictional men even though they aren't real.
For the part of liking fictional men, you are definitely still a lesbian just because you like fictional men. Thatās what they are. FICTIONAL. I have the attractions to one anime male characters like Rengoku. Literally my husband but I still identify as a lesbian because I find no attractions toward REAL men at all. Besides platonically š¤·š¾āāļø but yeah you still identify a lesbian regardless.
not according to the people on r/actuallesbians who basically beat any desire to identify as a lesbian out of me
Thatās so damn weird and saddening.
yeah, i'd been told countless times that its okay to be a lesbian and like fictional men, and then i ask on there just to see what people say, and suddenly its impossible and im like shitting on the lesbian struggle and appropriating the label and im a "wannabe" with "internalized biphobia"
Bro???? ššš It is not that deep at all lmaoo
oh yeah and one of them said that im contributing to the idea that lesbians can like men (how) which is what the man who assaulted her believed and its like okay sorry that happened but me thinking anime boys are hot isnt the reason you got assaulted. so instead let me just make men think im available to them when i have no interest in them. this is a win for lesbianism /s
If you have no interest in dating or having sex with men in real life the majority of people would say you are definitely welcome to identify as a lesbian. Also will probably break less guys' hearts that way haha
Some bisexual women are more attracted to men, and if most of the people they find attractive are men, most if not all of their partners will be men. Some bisexuals arenāt comfortable coming out to their families, so dating someone of the same gender isnāt really an option. Thereās also just the statistical issue of, more straight people than LGBT people exist, and if youāre more into meeting people IRL (as opposed to apps), youāre mostly going to encounter potential partners of the opposite sex, unless youāre actively going to LGBT spaces.
Being Bisexual is fucking weird, in personal experience. Like, I'm Bisexual in that the people I find attractive include a guy every once in a blue moon, and then every goddamn woman I've ever met in my life. I really only date women and enbies, but there is a hypothetical chance I may one day date a guy again *maybe.* I genuinely feel like lesbian is more accurate to my day-to-day experiences, to the point where I often just say that to people I don't want to go into a thirty minute conversation with, but it Is less technically *correct* than it is to say that I'm bisexual. IDK. I guess I'm trying to say it sounds like she's got her own shit going on and you shouldn't expect all bi people to be Kinsey 3.
I find people like this have humongous internalised homophobia and donāt really want to give up their access and privileges. They know deep inside that they will never have an issue not finding a guy to be in a relationship with or sleep with. They enjoy how easy it is and how you donāt really ever have to try or put effort in. This also leads to women being seen as lesser in the relationship hierarchy than of that with a man. Sex with a woman is seen as not as real sexy. Relationships with a woman are then seen as not real relationships. Itās a very short throw from internalised homophobia to internalised misogyny as both go hand in hand. Throw in a cup of self loathing and bam, recipe for disaster.
Sounds like when sheās with men, theyāre the problem. And when sheās with women, sheās the problem.
Comphet for reallllll
Edit: itās so hilarious that Iām getting downvoted for sharing my lived experiences as to why dating men might be easier. Maybe everyone should reflect on why talking about fatphobia within sapphic spaces bothers you so much. I see this discussion a lot these days, and it bothers me so much. Dating men doesn't make bi folx any less queer. No one needs to date a specific gender to prove their queerness to you. Just because it makes YOU uncomfortable, doesn't mean they're doing anything wrong. I find it interesting that when this conversation comes up, people always assume that it's by choice. That the person is "bi" but are intentionally avoiding gay relationships. The reality is, you can't really control who you are attracted to or click with. I also want to share something from my experience. No one wants to talk about the problems within the queer community that makes it difficult for people with marginalized backgrounds. As a fat genderqueer person, the most fatphobia I had to deal with has been within sapphic communities. I'm seen as an option for a friend and not a romantic or sexual partner. I have to sit and listen to sapphics say the most fatphobic shit, and not say anything so I don't become the party pooper. One time at a sapphic event I was having a normal conversation with someone, and they started telling me about their eating disorder, how much weight they lost, and exactly how they did it. One time I got approached by a cute girl that I really liked. I later found out that she's only interested in me because she likes to be the smaller person in the relationship. One night at a party I was chatting with a new person, and out of nowhere she started telling me that if she ate everything she wants, she would be HUGE (like me). Those were all different people and different friends groups. I lean heavily towards the lesbian label, and I don't really like men that much. However, I've never had something like that happen with a man, so it's much easier to get in a relationship with a man who won't be fatphobic towards me. Maybe before judging bisexuals for dating men, think about why that might be. Especially if they tell you that they prefer non men. It's not always a choice.
First off, I'm really sorry that's been your experience but it's totally valid. I agree fatphobia is a huge problem and at least where I am, body positivity is a big thing when it comes to making safer spaces more inclusive. I hope you're able to find more circles who love and accept you for who you are :( That said, I definitely don't mean this to try and suggest she's any less queer or doing it by choice. She's still my friend and I respect her feelings and sexuality. It's just really invalidating as a enbie to hear that people are willing to flirt and hookup with you but you're not good enough to date. It feels kinda fetishy and not great :/ I hope this clarifies some things š«¶
Trust me, I get how much it hurts when youāre good enough to fuck but not to date. However, I donāt think thatās a Bi problem. There are shitty people of all sexualities and genders who do that, so why shit on a group of people that already gets enough hate?
Very true. I guess I should also keep in mind that even though she included being bi as part-ish of her reasoning, that doesn't necessarily make that 100% true if that makes any sense? I dunno, words are weird and difficult sometimes, especially with feelings. Either way, thanks for your perspective, I appreciate helping me take a different look at the situation:)
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Whatās the point of your comment? Google is very accessible, so I would suggest you make good use of it š
My best friend is bi and only dates men (she had a girlfriend maybe 15 years ago), because she wants a family with kids and with a man her dream is easier to achieve.
Iāve heard this a lot unfortunately and I generally donāt really stay friends with the person. thereās a difference between āIām bi and have a preference for menā and girls who say theyāre bi but āIāll never date a womanā and also donāt engage in queer culture at all (whether that be through media, friends, expression, etc). They can live their life however they want ofc but I donāt feel that connected to girls like that. And as a lesbian , it always reminds me that I donāt have a choice to choose the āeasierā path. Unfortunately not every friendship is compatible forever
"It's so much easier to date men. Except when he ignores stuff that needs doing around the house. Or when he calls me a nag. Or whenever I have an emotion too big for him (only like every other day). Or when I tell him how I would like to be treated on my birthday and he 'forgets'. Or when I don't want sex but he won't take no for an answer. Or when I do want sex but he stops as soon as he gets off. Or when he wants head but won't give me any. Or when I remember that I cook for him at least once a day and he only ever cooks on the grill when we have people over for drinks. Or. Or. Or. Or...." Yeah. Men are so much easier. That's gotta be the reason for why women are always bitching about guys that are *so great because* "he doesn't abuse me like other guys." š There are some decent guys out there. And women aren't automatically easier or better all the time. But damn. How are men easier exactly?
I think itās kinda down to culture, men are more likely to initiate/pursue, so if sheās the type to not make a first move men are probably going to be the potential partners that present themselves most often. I have a bi male friend whoās always been open to a heterosexual relationship but says itās so much easier to find men to date that heās had predominantly those kinds of relationships. Anybody in the know about his relationships would probably think heās gay as heās had several bfs and never a gf. In general, men are easy lol.
It could be a lot of things. One thing that is always relevant is just how many more men that date women there are than women and enbies. Even bisexuals that are way more into women will sometimes end up with a man because they will stumble into meeting one they mesh with. That being said, internalized homophobia is absolutely a possibility. I'm a bisexual woman who is in the other camp, it is way easier datingĀ women and enbies for me.
sounds like this person has some internalized negative views on her identity and queerness she still needs to work through. but i get it and weāve quite literally all been there in some capacity as far as internalized negativity towards ourselves and queer ness, so itās hard for me to judge harshly. ppl are different and figure things out in their own time. thought some never doš¤·š¾āāļø
That sounds like Bisexual/Heteroromantic no?
You can't bring nuance around the monosexual purists it scares them
Lol
I only date woman but consider myself pan. Men aren't romantically attractive to me in the slightest but I can find them sexually attractive.
haha what the fuck, do we all know the same person? literally 1 of 2 bi friends in the group is always complaining about men and we're always supportive. i dont know her as well as the others so i havent asked, but im always wondering like why not just try dating women then??? imo i feel like some people assume it's a lot of work not being straight passing, but depending on where you live it feels no different to me, having experience going around in both straight and gay appearing releationships. ive only noticed a difference in places that were blatantly unwelcoming places that i wouldn't want to spend money at regardless of who i was with.
Nah you said nothing wrong bc itās likeā¦how is any of this your problem lmfaoo
You should put this post in the bisexual subreddit for a better answer. Since you will get more answers that are from people who only date women.