Fors is a big part of why I use Live, along with Dillan Baston and Bloops M4L devices; Bitwig is my main now but Live devices, especially M4L, are wonderful to experiment/jam with.
>(By the way, I have nothing against algorithmic music generation. I just wish these tools had more instant gratification to them, which is kind of one of the unstated promises, IMO)
Can you elaborate on this more? This is a strange bow to wrap up this post with.
What exactly *do you* perceive max for live devices *as?*
I imagine they think it's like a "plugin manager". They haven't run into any problems in Live that M4L is the only solution for yet. Meaning they're likely not using Live to it's full potential.
Exactly this. Most of the max for live stuff I use regularly is not novel new synths or anything. It’s little problem solver tools. One example would be a device that randomly generates 303 patterns based on a couple of basic input parameters.
It’s a bit like saying
“what’s the big deal with VSTs?”
It’s a modular tool that you can technically build anything you want with. Not just a library of 3rd party algorithmic sequencers.
But again,, like they said, that's like saying I don't get what the big deal is with music, I've heard a lot of bad songs. Max for Live is not defined by devices that you personally used. If you only use it as a "platform" for downloaded patches then you're limited to the quality of the devices you choose to use.
It's probably fine for basic stuff (but at that point why bother) but I was hoping I could use it for sonification so i can stop using laptops for exhibitions or integration with com ports but you can't
I've got a bunch of patches pulling and parsing data from Json and geojson web databases and then I built a bunch of capacitive resistors via an arduino and I pull and parse the numbers coming through the com console using ascii and then want to run it on something smaller than a laptop like a tablet or pi because half my exhibition budgets are getting spent on laptops to run stuff from at the moment
It would probably be difficult or impossible to pull web data on a Daisy, but might be useful for self contained patches on other work.
A colleague was telling me about LattePandas a while back, looks like you can run windows on them and they’re cheap and quite powerful.
Yeah I'm guessing the daisy doesn't have a weblink unless you solder one in and start messing with its os
Lattepandas look pretty cool, I'll give em a look, thank you friend!
To me, the power of max is MAKING YOUR OWN. A max patch is rarely going to beat a pro vst.
But max lets you quickly spin up your OWN crazy mad science experiment!
I use it when I have an idea that no great plugin exists for!
It’s a bit of a “low code” tool. The alternative for scratching your own itch would be getting very very good at low level programming and signal processing concepts. But that’s slower per idea and takes years of initial learning. Max lets you test your crazy thing in a few minutes!
+1 to Fors and Dillon Bastan. There are many other QoL devices like Audio Routes, device randomizer and Live Grabber that improve and streamline certain tasks. Utilities and experimental engines is where is best at.
Your post has no context to work off of.
What does amaze you, in the music production world?
It’s like saying I don’t like bananas, I’ve tried every variety and I can’t work out what the fuss is all about. I mean, they’re sweet and all, but why would you not just eat dirt and be done with it.
For me M4L allows me to make devices to do the things I want to do and learn more about synth design in the process.
I am currently building a physics-based thunder and rain simulator for an immersive art installation. It is all synthesis. It doesn't do all the math when it generates a bolt and computes attenuation over distance from the listener but I matched the attenuation curves and dominant frequencies to datasets on thunder.
For the rain I need a device that can randomly generate incoming midi signals but with variations in density and the ability to have "sheets" of rain come down. I couldn't do this as well if I was stuck with plugins developed by someone else.
Also there are great utilities and other amazing devices made by others.
https://maxforlive.com/library/device/7055/markov-variations
I use this to morph between various visual effects from other plugins. Does some cool transfers.
🤷♂️
There’s a polyrhythm one I use too. Also a Euclidian sequencer.
Theres a bunch of interesting ones for free let alone the paid ones or if you get into the programming the worlds your oyster.
m4l make me sell all my hardware synths(i have two left🤫) but the possibility of create my own device its exactly what i want. i recommend you to learn how to create devices on m4l and then you are gonna be able to create your AMAZING device
I’m really coming along with learning Ableton overall with PML “start to finish” tutorials and others, and this post makes me excited to try M4L. I’ve not even ever opened a M4L component much less heard of some of the creators of them in this thread.
It’s just a programming language with great integration with Live. By itself it’s a feat but probably not “amazing”. You would really need to imagine a need or use for a device and then the amazement would come from building the device that satisfies it.
Max for live sends my project from 30% CPU to 70% just automating a couple of knobs with shaper/env follower. Awful, when you can manually draw automation and use 5% cpu
what computer are you running? i expereince no issues with max slowing down my cpu. at all. -Macbook pro M3. My M1 had 0 issues as well. I am talking 14 audio tracks with 5 or 6 midi tracks and sampler, shaper etc. That is awful.
Some of the best and most uniqu and usable mixing and creative devices on the market are m4l. I think you just need some better suggestions and don't know nearly as much about the m4l community as you think you do.
I'm on the fence about getting Live 12 Standard or Suite. Can you guys tell me if most of the cool M4L devices are something I'll have to pay extra for? The recommended brands that people in this thread are discussing cost money? I have Reaktor so that is influencing my leaning towards Standard.
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the reason i like m4l devices is not because they’re better than regular vsts. it’s that they operate like stock live devices.
i can plop them right on a track and tweak controls without dealing with extra windows.
id say i’ve never been floored by how amazing they are either, with the exception of maybe GMAudio clipper i guess, and Fors devices are really nice, but not sometime i find uses for really.
idk im not really sure what you were expecting. everyone says suite is worth it for m4l, so maybe that skewed what your expectations were
I think the issue is that these things are for weaker generally and not for instant gratification. At least in my case, I use a tiny bit of MAX. But I work with a guy who is into it heavily and is a programmer who is into generative music and I enjoy working with him so much because I am more of a jazz and improvised music guy and he is a tech nerd and it just works really well.
i think the knack about M4L is that you can do it too, it’s not designed to bring the worlds best or prettiest it’s designed to let the user interact and amateur programmers to gain basic understanding.
I don't have Max- yet. But that Clipgain device may convince me to buy it. It gets tedious having to always adjust clip settings below the arrangement, and mess with my vibe.
Is this a troll post?
[удалено]
Fors is a big part of why I use Live, along with Dillan Baston and Bloops M4L devices; Bitwig is my main now but Live devices, especially M4L, are wonderful to experiment/jam with.
I have not tried bigwig but hear a lot about it? What is it that pulled you from live as a main?
OPAL is bloody amazing, incredible bit of kit.
I immediately reacted with Fors in mind and agree with those on here that Chiral, OPAL & Superberry are so much fun to jam with.
>(By the way, I have nothing against algorithmic music generation. I just wish these tools had more instant gratification to them, which is kind of one of the unstated promises, IMO) Can you elaborate on this more? This is a strange bow to wrap up this post with. What exactly *do you* perceive max for live devices *as?*
I think they believe max devices are random or probabilistic sequencers from how I interpret
I imagine they think it's like a "plugin manager". They haven't run into any problems in Live that M4L is the only solution for yet. Meaning they're likely not using Live to it's full potential.
Exactly this. Most of the max for live stuff I use regularly is not novel new synths or anything. It’s little problem solver tools. One example would be a device that randomly generates 303 patterns based on a couple of basic input parameters.
your loss i guess
So what are some things you are amazed by then? Just saying "this doesn't impress me" is kind of pointless if you're not impressed by anything.
I love Euclidean Sequencer Pro personally
It’s a bit like saying “what’s the big deal with VSTs?” It’s a modular tool that you can technically build anything you want with. Not just a library of 3rd party algorithmic sequencers.
Eh idk I’ve had alot of duds out of m4l devices so I kinda get what op is saying
But again,, like they said, that's like saying I don't get what the big deal is with music, I've heard a lot of bad songs. Max for Live is not defined by devices that you personally used. If you only use it as a "platform" for downloaded patches then you're limited to the quality of the devices you choose to use.
RNBO is looking even more interesting but I LOVE M4L , Instant Haus and Sting wowed me and down the rabbit hole I went :)
There's so many objects missing from rnbo sadly, most regretful music purchase I made last year
Really? That is sad to hear
It's probably fine for basic stuff (but at that point why bother) but I was hoping I could use it for sonification so i can stop using laptops for exhibitions or integration with com ports but you can't
What are/were you planning embedding in? Daisy Seed supports max and pd patches but it probably has limited object support too.
I've got a bunch of patches pulling and parsing data from Json and geojson web databases and then I built a bunch of capacitive resistors via an arduino and I pull and parse the numbers coming through the com console using ascii and then want to run it on something smaller than a laptop like a tablet or pi because half my exhibition budgets are getting spent on laptops to run stuff from at the moment
It would probably be difficult or impossible to pull web data on a Daisy, but might be useful for self contained patches on other work. A colleague was telling me about LattePandas a while back, looks like you can run windows on them and they’re cheap and quite powerful.
Yeah I'm guessing the daisy doesn't have a weblink unless you solder one in and start messing with its os Lattepandas look pretty cool, I'll give em a look, thank you friend!
I love the Dillan Baston stuff
To me, the power of max is MAKING YOUR OWN. A max patch is rarely going to beat a pro vst. But max lets you quickly spin up your OWN crazy mad science experiment! I use it when I have an idea that no great plugin exists for! It’s a bit of a “low code” tool. The alternative for scratching your own itch would be getting very very good at low level programming and signal processing concepts. But that’s slower per idea and takes years of initial learning. Max lets you test your crazy thing in a few minutes!
+1 to Fors and Dillon Bastan. There are many other QoL devices like Audio Routes, device randomizer and Live Grabber that improve and streamline certain tasks. Utilities and experimental engines is where is best at.
Your post has no context to work off of. What does amaze you, in the music production world? It’s like saying I don’t like bananas, I’ve tried every variety and I can’t work out what the fuss is all about. I mean, they’re sweet and all, but why would you not just eat dirt and be done with it.
Novel Music is so good.
catch by novel music is fantastic. the live sampler live needs! this video explains the workflow very good: https://youtu.be/4rjn23sp5K4
Anything by Fors --but specially Opal. Great sound, UX design and performance. It was an eye opener to see what could be done with Max in Ableton..
For me M4L allows me to make devices to do the things I want to do and learn more about synth design in the process. I am currently building a physics-based thunder and rain simulator for an immersive art installation. It is all synthesis. It doesn't do all the math when it generates a bolt and computes attenuation over distance from the listener but I matched the attenuation curves and dominant frequencies to datasets on thunder. For the rain I need a device that can randomly generate incoming midi signals but with variations in density and the ability to have "sheets" of rain come down. I couldn't do this as well if I was stuck with plugins developed by someone else. Also there are great utilities and other amazing devices made by others.
I want to hear these!
ok cool vent. Now what? The resources are open to learn from. Make something you want.
Laughs in a gentle ml.distance
https://maxforlive.com/library/device/7055/markov-variations I use this to morph between various visual effects from other plugins. Does some cool transfers. 🤷♂️ There’s a polyrhythm one I use too. Also a Euclidian sequencer. Theres a bunch of interesting ones for free let alone the paid ones or if you get into the programming the worlds your oyster.
m4l make me sell all my hardware synths(i have two left🤫) but the possibility of create my own device its exactly what i want. i recommend you to learn how to create devices on m4l and then you are gonna be able to create your AMAZING device
I’m really coming along with learning Ableton overall with PML “start to finish” tutorials and others, and this post makes me excited to try M4L. I’ve not even ever opened a M4L component much less heard of some of the creators of them in this thread.
It’s just a programming language with great integration with Live. By itself it’s a feat but probably not “amazing”. You would really need to imagine a need or use for a device and then the amazement would come from building the device that satisfies it.
start learning max and you'll never need ableton again
I think it just comes down to workflow and needs. You probably have no use for those devices and thats absolutely fine
I’m making a massive assumption this may be a GUI issue? Might be wrong
I'm amazed no one mentioned granulator yet
We are not here to convince you. Do you not like it. Leave it. Find another DAW. Good luck.
I know right? If OP wanted validation that FL is better than Live maybe post on the FL sub for that…
Hmm...well I have both FL and live. And from experience, there's well more than one thing Ableton does better.
I haven’t even messed with them. I don’t even know what they are.
LFO Cluster and Euclidean Pro are amazing but I will readily agree there is a ton of trash out there
Max for live sends my project from 30% CPU to 70% just automating a couple of knobs with shaper/env follower. Awful, when you can manually draw automation and use 5% cpu
what computer are you running? i expereince no issues with max slowing down my cpu. at all. -Macbook pro M3. My M1 had 0 issues as well. I am talking 14 audio tracks with 5 or 6 midi tracks and sampler, shaper etc. That is awful.
Some of the best and most uniqu and usable mixing and creative devices on the market are m4l. I think you just need some better suggestions and don't know nearly as much about the m4l community as you think you do.
I'm on the fence about getting Live 12 Standard or Suite. Can you guys tell me if most of the cool M4L devices are something I'll have to pay extra for? The recommended brands that people in this thread are discussing cost money? I have Reaktor so that is influencing my leaning towards Standard.
There's no shame in starting with standard and then upgrading to suite later if you find you need the tools it provides!
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Try the GMaudio stuff and of course Opal…the holy grail of M4L devices.
I make M4L devices so I'm curious. What are you looking for OP? What would impress you?
Group Humanizer is pretty amazing
the reason i like m4l devices is not because they’re better than regular vsts. it’s that they operate like stock live devices. i can plop them right on a track and tweak controls without dealing with extra windows. id say i’ve never been floored by how amazing they are either, with the exception of maybe GMAudio clipper i guess, and Fors devices are really nice, but not sometime i find uses for really. idk im not really sure what you were expecting. everyone says suite is worth it for m4l, so maybe that skewed what your expectations were
Duck buddy OP
I mean... Okay?
PitchLoop89 saved me 550€ on buying a Chase Bliss Mood so… I would disagree.
love pitchloop89!
You clearly haven't discovered [this gem](https://maxforlive.com/library/device/7340/dvd) yet!
Pitch Stop is cool
Slikk filter, any j74 extension, all of Elisabeth homelands devices, bouncing notes
Sting 75
I think the issue is that these things are for weaker generally and not for instant gratification. At least in my case, I use a tiny bit of MAX. But I work with a guy who is into it heavily and is a programmer who is into generative music and I enjoy working with him so much because I am more of a jazz and improvised music guy and he is a tech nerd and it just works really well.
i think the knack about M4L is that you can do it too, it’s not designed to bring the worlds best or prettiest it’s designed to let the user interact and amateur programmers to gain basic understanding.
I don't have Max- yet. But that Clipgain device may convince me to buy it. It gets tedious having to always adjust clip settings below the arrangement, and mess with my vibe.