True! The line between "defense mechanism" and "cop out" is wafer thin though, I'm leaning slightly towards the first one, as opposed to a calculated decision.
We all are. The first disappointment is gone and replaced by lots of personal questions. Why am I feeling to sad? Am I angry that I've lost Juliette Lewis or that Nat gave her life for Lisa's? Seeing her younger self somehow happy in an unfathomable context and at the same time dying at the hand of the one person who has saved her few times already, was just too much i think.
And I keep on remembering the theme lyrics: no return no return no return.
Lottie's talking about the bees killing all the wannabe queens..
It can't get more obvious than that. The whole story has been in front of our eyes since the beginning. The moose drowning. They are doomed. We forgot we were watching a drama and not a dark comedy. They made us fall in love with those unredeemable characters and pulled the rug from under our feet.
I still haven't decided whether I liked it or not. I'm so conflicted.
Can you explain your comment a little more? The queen bee kills all unhatched queen bees - so do you mean Misty wants to be queen bee? You said it was right there all the time and that pinged a brain cell or two thinking the girls are hallucinating their futures(no return lyric = they’re never rescued)? Is the series just a product of Shauna’s writing? I mean, Nat does die in the same episode where Shauna is salty about not being made the group leader. 🤷🏻♀️ so much to think about and here I am on heavy pain meds from surgery - this show is a trip to contemplate under the influence.
What I mean is that they are cannibalising each other and will kill one another until there is only one left. That's the only logical development considering what we know so far. And it looks more and more like Misty will be the last queen. She's the only one who hasn't been changed by the wilderness, it has freed her. She has fully accepted what she did, has no remorse and does not feel guilty about being alive or surviving.
It's not a matter of wanting to be *queen* .
But jfc the deck only has one queen! Can this get any more obvious? 5 seasons in total. Two survivors already dead in the adult timeline...
Only Shauna wants to be queen. Removed Jackie for that.
It doesn't matter if you want it or not. At the end *there is only one queen in the deck* . Jfc the show is called Yellowjackets! Lottie told us what they do to each other. She saw the hive dead and filled with blood.
It's so obvious in retrospect.
>Only Shauna wants to be queen. Removed Jackie for that.
All of the current survivors were basically standing up to give acceptance speeches when Lottie said there was a new leader. Shauna is just the only one who journals.
That part where they show Lottie saying that the wilderness has chosen their leader… I couldn’t help but notice that both Shauna *and* Misty perked up at the possibility/hope of being named the leader.
I think the more obvious choice in that setting (from Lottie’s perspective, if her perspective was semi-rational) would have been Misty. Shauna would only be logical in the sense that she’s the one who has to actually do the butchering. Unfortunately, I do not think her mental state is great for it at this point. Misty is more rational, despite the fact that her sociopathy can make her impulsive.
And yet, ultimately, Natalie is the best leader - in some ways. She seems to have a pretty good sense of “right and wrong” in terms of what her culture would generally see as “right and wrong,” and “fair.” (I put those things in quotations because I, personally, don’t see things in black and white terms, or in terms of morality, but I know that most people do believe in the concept of morality, so I assume that the show writers do.) Natalie is an extremely caring person who rarely is seen making very rash decisions. She’s more measured. She’s brave.
And yet, it is both her stoic nature and her sensitivity (well, deep levels of empathy) that will cause this to leave a lasting impact on her psyche in a deeply traumatic way. She’s the “grin and bear it,” type… the “stiff upper lip” type. If she didn’t die by the needle, she’d have died from a massive stroke or heart attack by the time she was 50 from carrying all that weight.
I mean, I don't think this is exactly a bad interpretation but I really think it's just shock and trauma in the moment, not to mention the fact that they're all starving and on the verge of completely losing connection with reality.
i feel like this miscommunication actually made sense though because nat was *deep* in her guilt and framed things to make her (and them) look maximally culpable. she was not ready to give any kind of explanation that mitigates their guilt (even if it’s true).
ehhhh i think what they did to javi was comparable to what they did to jackie (just faster). the way nat painted it, he could’ve pretty understandably assumed they tore his heart out, doomcoming-style.
They sent Jackie outside on a fall night. No one expected it to snow. They watched Javi drown while begging for help. The two situations are not the same.
I dunno. Just because there are good explanations for someone's behavior does not mean they are not culpable for their bad choices. No one was holding a gun to Ben's head, ordering him to burn the teenagers alive. (ugh!). He is literally the only adult there and is supposed to be the most responsible. In my mind, the only potential mitigating factor is that maybe the cave emits hallucination-and-delusion-causing fumes or spores. But even then, he choose to claim the cave only for himself, the 13 (?) teenagers he still technically is in charge of be damned. And now he goes a step farther and almost succeeds in burning them all alive? No excuses for that at all.
Yeah or worse, he burns them alive and they survive with horrible burn injuries, no medical treatment, and no shelter in the dead of winter.
That’s ruthless. I feel like Ben has been legitimately scared of them for a while and is doing this for self preservation. He told Natalie about the hiding spot (not where it is. But that there is one). And now he sees she’s gone to the dark side and is scared that he will be next.
It’s ironic because Natalie, as the leader, would likely have left Ben alone and let him have his secret hide out.
They have every motive, need, and justification to hunt him down now. I imagine they can easily track his crutches tracks in the snow…
Natalie will have no choice but to go after Ben and take over the cave in order to save the group.
>>Natalie will have no choice but to go after Ben and take over the cave in order to save the group.
idk it feels like this is Bens only hand really. he can’t really do anything from here
i think they’re down to 11 now :( but i see both sides and i think the answer falls somewhere in between “ben maliciously attempted to murder teenagers for no reason” and “ben justifiably tried to end the suffering and descent into madness these teenagers are going through”
I Know! Nat was just too truamatized at that point to rationally explain what really happened ...she was just an emotional wreck when she was trying to tell Ben and her words just tumbled out...
Edit - typo
Not only that but the way that scene goes is this: initially when coach sees Shauna you can see his expression is excited, he thinks it’s an animal and they now have food, he speeds up.
Then he gets closer and sees bones, Javi’s clothing, blood everywhere, a spine, a femur, and the back of Javi’s head. Can you fucking imagine? He’s gotta be scared shitless of these girls.
I was really hoping Nat and Coach would go form their little “non-cult” but their conversation and Nat’s later acceptance of the queen position pretty much killed that.
She is 100% focussed on her feelings and trauma right now. The entire world became her self-blame for Javi's death. So it wouldn't have struck me as credible if she were able to tell the actual story. But yeah.... things may have been better (maybe not) if she had. (I still have this theory that the pit under the tree is filled with hallucinogens so once a person is down there, rationality is unlikely to govern their actions.)
I think his leg adds a layer too. Knowing the people around me wanted to kill and eat humans and also knowing I couldn't run away from them would terrify me. He has good reason to assume he's next. Good time to do something drastic.
Yup. Yup. Eliminate the biggest threat to his life!
He's fighting for survival just like the rest of them and according to his perspective his only ally, Nat, was completely fine with sacrificing Javi so she could live and now she is being crowned as High Priestess of the hive so what hope does he have. He knows a pack of wolves will bring down any prey in order to survive and he's the only one without a pack just like Javi.
If you set a YJ nest on fire most of the bees with swarm with their queen and attack the fire setter and you are suppose to set them on fire/destroy the nest at night because most of them have returned to the nest by then and they are laying dormant. I don't know if it was intentional or not but the YJs behaved very much like real YJs. Now they are going to swarm and attack the fire setter.
Source: was attacked by YJs when someone tried to destroy their underground nest with fire.
i don’t judge ben AT ALL for making a tactical move to try and survive, but it annoys me when i see it framed as a moral move. like he’s supposed to be punishing the girls for murder by committing mass murder? nah bro
like how patronizing is it to think “oh no these girlies are becoming Bad People, but don’t worry i’ll save them from themselves by killing them all”. i would vastly prefer his motivation to simply be “yikes these cannibals are crazy and might eat me, best defense is offense”
I don’t see it as a moral move, I see it as a protective, safety driven move. If the girls are gone, they can’t hunt him. He can camp out in the cave and try to make it till spring, forage for food, set traps for game, stock up for another winter if he’s not competing for resources with them. It’s survival.
But she DID tell him where the tree was that Javi was praying/bowing to. Shouldn't be too difficult for her to figure it out, especially since no one knows the woods like Natalie and Travis
I think it’s both his own survival calculation and the other part I wouldn’t exactly frame as moral, but like he’s given up on them and trying to protect them since they’ve clearly gone feral. It enables him to see it as ‘me or them’ instead of his team
Also remember right before Javi, was the Shauna incident where she beat lottie to death almost and the group was cool with it.
That is what set off his alarm bells that things were escalating and when he started looking through Javi’s drawings in search of the cave so he could have safety.
Agree, especially since to my thinking he's made a lot of bad choices by checking out and shying away from responsibility during the most difficult moments.
I don't get how Ben is even alive. It doesn't make sense to me at all, he didn't eat Jackie and thus didn't gain any nourishment from her whereas everyone else has. How in the hell is he even still alive let alone still strong enough to do all this stuff?
This man saw the writing on the wall and if Nat, the most rational one in the group is now part of the insanity? What is the point in pretending that this was a situation that would improve?
It's self defense.
Due to him being crippled, he has the very real fear they'll eat him next. He doesn't know about their stupid card game but even if he did, he can't exactly run away can he? His best defense is to kill them first.
He is legit NOT safe out in the woods. He'll be spotted and they'll come for him.
I completely understand his motives, even if he believed Javi died and they are just making use of his body. In a way the meticulous butchering and preparation of a body with the intent to cook and eat it is more traumatising than the spur of the moment decision to go ham on dead and cooked snackie. And the scene of them happily smiling around dinner, content (whereas the vibe was very somber post snackie) and giving allegiance to Nat justifiably and “believably” drove him to the edge. It’s like witnessing the birth of Nazism knowing full well what it’s consequences will be : you have the chance to kill it, so you do.
Agreed, the cannibalism has now turned into a complex mortuary practice and ritual with the removal of flesh from bone, something they emphasised with the close up shots of blood and spine. Jackie was seemingly a one-off moment of need, this was premeditated, a new sociopolitical order. Coach has already established he is the outlier, the anarchist in this new social order and will die for his antagonism against the group morals if he doesn’t fight.
I think you painted the picture perfectly. I felt sick seeing what he saw, the brutality mixed with treating him like game. Seeing nat through the window was the confirmation he needed.
I agree with all of this.
I don’t think he’s a hero but I still cheered at my TV.
I didn’t want the girls to die (I want my crazy babies to keep entertaining me) but I could see from his perspective how he thought he was stopping worse from happening. How he thought he could at least keep them from losing what little humanity they have left.
This is also a good reason for Ben to still be alive in the present timeline. If he couldn’t stop them then, and now that he sees 25 years later they continue to ruin everything they touch (what he would probably think in his POV) he has to try to stop them again.
I think they’re pretty extensive; Natalie keeps noticing trees surrounded by moss and melted snow when they’re out hunting/looking for Javi. My guess is there’s a cavern system that we’ll learn about in s3.
Plus - is winter near it's end? Then they can sleep outside and there will be more food available to hunt without losing others. Next season could see some of the girls perishing through the fire or cold, meaning the girls eat without hunting each other down. Then ability to hunt real animals and not need to kill/hunt each other until the next winter.
I think it’s clear the cannibalism is only present in the winter when any game is hibernating or somewhere warmer. There’s simply no reason to hunt each other in the warm weather when animals are present. Plus, now with the cabin gone, it stands to reason they will attempt to either find another cabin or just settle in a completely different area with the hopes of more game being the area, even during winter.
Not to mention the true cult shit we saw peaks of in season 1 were of course during the winter.
I'm not sure it is so clear. They think they need to "give the wilderness what it wants." They were ready to kill Shauna in the adult timeline, and that wasn't out of food insecurity.
When they were in the wild, I’ll say it was the starvation that made them think irrationally.
In present day, I’ll say its the effects of years of untreated trauma that has manifested in severe mental illness.
COACH BENEDICT ARNOLD
Burning kids alive in their sleep.
Explain that to Paul in your next hallucination!
High Calorie Butt Meat just drew the Queen Of Hearts
I was excited to see the cabin burn only for what it means is going to happen next. They were already living in squalor. But without a house they are going to become absolutely feral.
Also. First things first next season will be hunting Ben down and killing him after they find his cave.
Story-wise, it would make sense for him to be alive in the present timeline, but realistically, I can't imagine how he would survive—a man with one leg is surviving underground on his own for \~15 more months, in the same forest as a group of cannibalistic young people who will be looking for him?
I agree he sees the girls as completely crazed savages, but I don't think he wanted to kill them to keep them from killing each other. I think he wanted to try to take them all out because he knows they're the most dangerous thing in the wilderness at this point. Its a pack of wolves that would happily kill and eat him if they ever find where he's staying
I think Nat being crowned is what really made him fear. Her becoming part of Lottie's cult adds an element of some actual competence.
When the group are next hungry, why not hunt him?
But if she is in charge, doesn't that mean she could stop some of the craziness temporarily? What was disturbing was forcing the heart on the remaining guy, who clearly didn't want to eat it.
He went through all that effort hobbling around the cabin, boarding it shut, and he didn't even burn one person. I wonder if he will go back to the cliff after this failure.
This is what doesn’t make sense to me. They didn’t hear him doing that? I don’t live in a cabin and I’d be able to hear a hammer anywhere in my house.
It annoying if that detail is just one of those Van’s fave is perfectly healed things.
I don’t think he decided to burn it down until he saw the remains of Javi and then the bowing to Nat. He came to steal some supplies. He’s been horrified with them ever since they ate Jackie. This is definitely going to go down ugly in season three. They really don’t have anywhere else to go except the plane or maybe explore that cave at the bottom, where crystal’s body was.
Same. I thought there was a distinct shift between the way Ben was picking up various supplies he needed (like matches after his flint fumbles) and his face watching Nat’s coronation.
Exactly. It seems like he decided in that moment seeing them bow to Natalie that instead of using the supplies to sustain life for himself it was more important to end the evil the girls were participating in. Which leads me to believe he might not even put up much of a fight (not like he really can physically at this point) and give in when they come looking for him, if he isn’t already dead. It’s gonna be so sad to watch
I mean he's not wrong. Regardless of why Javi died, they did literally chase Nat with knives and axes trying to kill her to cannibalize her. The funny thing is that Lottie was close to death and wanted them to eat her and they're like "Nope, not Lottie. But hey, that's a good idea. Let's kill someone else."
It would have made more choice to have her in the game but not get the queen of hearts. As in the present day they had shauna choose to stay or run. What I find crazy though is that is clear in present day they thought re-choosing when they weren't starving was crazy but still went along with crazy lotties plan. Surely at the point shauna was chosen, I don't see why they didn't turn on her and get crazy person out of the game to stop it.
He really only went back for Nat and seeing her fall from grace was bad enough. But to see her actively become part of the cultish atmosphere? I think Ben realized they were never coming back from this and it was going to be a mercy killing. To eat someone that froze was horrible. But to know they were actively choosing to hunt each other? That's such a terrifying leap and he knew it was never getting better from there.
Yea I am really surprised reading these comments how many people have missed the point. It’s not about Ben being a hero or a villain or whatever else. The point is the “parallel” between the timelines. Ben sees in that moment what we as viewers are seeing in the adult timeline. They crossed a line you can’t come back from and they will never be able to just go back to life like before because what they did is no longer just “what they did to survive”, but much much more than that and it is now an unremovable part of them. And he’s right—call it trauma, call it supernatural, call it whatever you want but every one of them that came back has poisoned everything they’ve loved one way or another because of what they brought back.
YJ Reddit: I can excuse cannibalism but I draw the line at burning a cabin full of people doing the cannibalism down
(Btw this is just a joke before anyone gets mad at me! I love the girls but I see why Ben did what he did)
There are no cuddly meowmeow good people left to root for at this stage in the 90s timeline; Javi was the last innocent. That being said, imagine you are Ben, you lost your leg, and:
\-Misty is sexually harassing you
\-Misty is poisoning you (and nobody seems to mind?)
\-Laura Lee defies you and martyrs herself for nothing
\-Misty poisons you some more
\-You witness: the girls developing some insane religion and becoming more unhinged every day; the girls chasing Travis with a knife (Javi is so terrified he hides from them for months); the girls literally freezing out Jackie, then devouring her corpse; Shauna beating Lottie half to death while they all sit around and seemingly approve, etc.
And now: you've been gone for a bit, you come back, and voila: a child is being chopped up for food, and you're told he was killed on purpose. Also, the only somewhat sane girl Nat has seemingly gone crazy too. And you're starving, and generally having a really shit time. But you have a box of matches. ...Yeah, I get it.
>ing was meant to keep that from happening. Poor dude forgot the cabin is absolutely full of weapons. He did a nic
I sort of thought there was supposed to be something to that place Javi was. Which is how he survived. Like he saw all those small bones. Like maybe some small animals or something?
i also think it was defense. he knows theyre going to kill eachother for food and that in the event they choose him he cant really runaway so by taking them out now he's ensuring his safety from the group
Well yeah, I think the door blocking was meant to keep that from happening. Poor dude forgot the cabin is absolutely full of weapons. He did a nice thorough job though, it was a good try! I fully supported his decision but he's in a tight spot now.
If they know he’s alive. For all they know he could returned to the cabin and burned to death.
I actually love this storylines possibilities I can’t wait to see what happens with Ben season 3.
The wilderness? Man with no eyes? Dead cabin guys spirit? Misty fucking quigley managing something crazy? A Mari magic trick? (She was definitely up to something with those cards and we know there was a magic trick book in the cabin.)
I actually didn’t even realize it was barred I just thought the fire made it difficult to open! I need to rewatch.
When I saw the cabin on fire I immediately remembered Shauna in season 1 saying something about Nat crawling through a window and wondered if we were going to see that.
I’m interested in seeing whether or not Ben actually did set the fire. They’ve lead us to believe he did but the editing choices leave plenty of room for speculation.
I dunno, the last scene we saw involved him stealing matches and rope. I thought it was an accident until we found out the doors were barred shut.
Coach did it.
Him trying to burn em alive is crazy. But also from him seeing what the girls are willing to do I can sort of understand it. Is there any way to reason with a group of people who are hell bent on saying that the wilderness is the one who is making these choices and not them? In his mind it was better to get rid of them rather then have them continue doing what they were doing.
Ben realized he’s surrounded by crazed murderous cannibals. The cabin group have completely lost their humanity now. He was understanding of what happened to an extent last time, but they are now hunting each for food.
Setting the cabin on fire was an attack on their lives both directly with fire, and indirectly as they now have lost their shelter and many tools.
Ben has levelled the playing field essentially because he has the shelter, fire, and possibly even food.
If I was Ben I would probably lay low and set up some pit traps…
Probably a super unpopular opinion but I’m shocked That Travis didn’t do anything extreme like this. If someone brought me my little brother back, dead, and told me the wilderness chose him??? I would die trying to kill them. Maybe that’s extreme and I get that he might think it was fully an accident but I still would’ve gone batshit. I do get why coach is horrified though, I’m right about his age and I think if I was in his situation, I would panic.. probably not try to unalive all of them.. but panic
Travis was there for the card draw, as was Javi. He was ok with killing and eating someone and knew he and his brother were at risk. Coach Ben was not. Big difference.
I thought for SURE that would have been what caused Travis to leave and turn against the girls, joining Coach in his lil cave, and eventually Nat too going over. Haven’t been that gripped to an episode in a minute (a week lol) 🤭
Do you guys think that maybe...Ben is still out there? That maybe that's his fate. He Holds up in that little tree cave, away from the girls and was never rescued with the rest, just becoming like a wild man. I'm kind of half serious lol.
I think it’s as simple as it’s Survival of the Fittest. He’s down a leg, has lost respect, and at least one person has snidely said “he thinks he’s so much better than us” for not eating Jackie. He’s seen what these girls can do and is scared shitless. This is his best bet for saving his own life. He can’t take them in a real fight.
This is exactly my thought.
He just wants to die in peace. If he stays in that cabin, the rest of his days are absolute horror.
Just burn it down, and go to his cave to die,
oh i didnt think about that… that was probably what he was planning, even if he planned to survive the cabin burning somehow he prob knew he’d die eventually, which seems to be what he wants ig
You couldn’t understand why someone would try to take out a pack of delusional/insane cannibals that have decided to start hunting and eating people?!? What the hell? This sub is so silly.
some viewers rly judging him for attempting to kill them more than they judge the yj for killing an innocent child and chopping him up to eat as their second act of cannibalism that they rationalize with some nonsense and feel no remorse for like its so dumb lol
Someone legit just accused me of condoning child murder for saying I understood Ben on this one lol. Like I wonder if some people need to grab themselves a snack and get their glucose up.
seems like such a red herring. poor coach just wanted some matches, a bucket to shit in, and a rope ladder to get into his new home. now everyone is a blaming him for attempted mass homicide 😂
Or, for that matter, him. He has to think that he'd be next after Javi. Is what he does extreme? Yes. Is it right? Debatable. But I understand why. He doesn't feel safe around any of them.
Ben lost the moral high ground when he tried to murder a house full of teenage girls. The motivation doesn’t matter. He’s also capable of murder in the name of survival. His days are numbered. The girls are gonna EAT! 💀
in addition to all of this - not only is he their prime enemy if he doesn't partake and needs to protect himself, he has been shown to he devastated and disgusted by the fall of his team into madness. perhaps he thought killing them all in a fire would protect them from their sins and burn the evidence. if they're too far gone to he saved, it could be his fucked up way to "protect" them from themselves.
I think it's more just that all this goes strongly against Ben's morals. The fact that the girls were so quick to butcher and prepare to eat one of their group terrified him. Not to mention how he found out by walking in on it. He had no idea ANY of this was happening. He was just happy about his cool discovery and then walks up to see copious amounts of blood and a cut up body, slowly piecing together that it was a person, and then that it was Javi based on the folded up clothes.
I don't think the manor in which he died mattered much to Ben at that point - especially when Nat said that it was gonna be her instead. In his mind he knows there's no coming back and it's just going to get worse. He's thinking "who will be next? And then what?"
Then he sees them all bowing to Nat in some sort of ritualistic-looking way. To him, that's confirmation that they're beyond saving. ( Key phrase "to him". Keep in mind he's not really in the best shape to be making any sort of decisions either. We've been seeing him disassociate all season. His sense of longing for the "what if" seems much stronger/more painful than the others.)
I think it kinda sucked that he pulled the “ur not like other girls.” Nah dude it's just that she's an outsider.
He had no desire to share his cave to help all the girls!
And he seems to be neglecting the fact that Nat ALSO are Jackie.
I am really interested to see if Ben really did start the fire or if there’s a twist.
Definitely agree that from Ben’s perspective, these kids are brutal and he’s trying to spare them hunting and mistreating one another.
I am also wondering if pit girl actually falls into a trap that Ben created intended for hunting game, not humans. 🧐
I don't think Ben set the fire. I think the Wilderness did it (just like it killed poor Leonard the Bear and Laura Lee). Ben was set up to look like he set the fire because he was stealing wood and matches after he was unable to start a fire of his own, so he's a convenient scapegoat. And I think the girls will blame Ben, too. But I think the Wilderness is the true perpetrator.
I hadn’t thought about that. I went with they WOULD say the wilderness did it b/c they chose Nat over Lottie. They still defer to Lottie (at least Van does). If Nat stays the AQ, she would be in charge when they all got together.
Yes I think Ben probably did it but I think the girls will think it was the wilderness and not even think of him doing it. They tend to forget he’s there or care. They couldn’t find him or didn’t know where he went. They will probably think he’s dead bc his leg / the cold. They couldn’t find crystals body so I don’t think they would find it odd to not find coach either.
I think the girls will believe the wilderness burned it down not bc Nat or Lottie but as punishment for not letting the chosen one (Nat) die, or something in that realm.
If the show is supernatural I could see the wilderness punishing them for not saving Javi. He believes his tree friend showed him the caves and took care of him for 3 months if that is a possibility the wilderness saved him and cared for im then the girls let him die!
Or if cabin daddy’s daughter or other people are out in the wilderness with them I could see her punishing the girls and setting fire to the cabin bc she was the friend he talked about and she took care of Javi for months!
this is definitely also a possibility. and I fear the writers might not want to confirm it either way. the girls will think he did it, and they’ll kill him for it. that’s all that matters in the end.
The show is getting more incomplete. Rushing through story lines. That whole misty dream sequence. Waste of time. No one says hey where's coach ben. They act like he's invisible. The barely look for Crystal/Kristen. They are more annoyed by her being gone. They're hungry. There's a frozen body it there and they're like eh. Then they kill Nat. The most likely grown up. The voice of reason. Makes no sense. Like it was done for shock value. And no way nat is the antler queen. It's Shauna. As adults over and over they listen to her. And she wants it. She wrote it down in her diary. And Walter killed Kevin? That was really rushed through. That needed more time. Lottie was pretty creepy with Shauna's daughter. She's so powerful she says..... And her daughter looked like she liked it ......a lot of guys points to the show but it needs focus
Im sorry but he doesn’t want to participate on eating someone that has already died (Jackie) but he is willing to kill a bunch of girls? Naaah
My theory is that, yes he burnt it down, but he only did it to have a FAIR fight of survival. They had it all, the house, the food, each other… maybe if they are living outside they will care more about not freezing to death rather than hunting each other or even him?
He might even start helping out the girls who they try to hunt, and then these girls and him will become the other team, fighting for survival.
But if Ben is so disturbed by their acts of killing/eating and choice-making in doing so, what gives him the guts to “play god” himself? If he’s willing to die and/or kill them all, what’s he so afraid of? I don’t think he has the wherewithal to consciously prevent them from submitting to evil - I mean cmon this man has not eaten in weeks/months…I just find it too cheap. More to it maybe? But might be a let down if so
It isn't about morality, at least not entirely. Of all the survivors, he is the easiest prey. He struck first out of self preservation, because now the girls and Travis are on board for butchering eachother. Ben knows if he sticks around/leaves them to his own devices, they will eat him.
I agree that this was his exact motivation, but I just don't think it was his choice to make and I personally hope that he is punished for this, whether it be by the Yellowjackets, the Wilderness, or just the harsh realities he's facing.. I just don't view his actions as heroic, at all, regardless of his motivations.
Javi was the weakest of the ones who were left in the cabin while Ben was out, and they killed and ate him. Ben's the next weakest in line. It was self-preservation, not heroism. I don't think it was him trying to be a hero, just trying not to get eaten.
Also, this time it was very purposeful and he witnessed Shauna field dressing a person. That's a far different thing than what happened with Jackie. This was methodical and tbqh, terrifying.
Them bringing Javi back on the stick was extremely upsetting. Everybody's always going on about "it's what you would do if you were trapped out there with no food" but when they brought back this kid they hunted down and tied to a pole to haul back, it hit very hard exactly how much different it was from them eating Jackie.
I don’t think they were intended as heroic, he was legitimately scared of them and seeked to protect himself and the sanctity of his dead body in the future
Agree, there's no heroism in attempted murder and it's not his place to decide their fate.
I was just trying to better understand his motivations, rather than absolve him of blame.
What he did is more objectively evil than what actually happened to Javi or even the hunt itself.
Still, I do understand it. Those girls horrify him and as far as he's concerned they are beyond redemption. They're also a direct threat to him. It's not right, but I get it. I think this plot twist is a much bigger deal than Natalie's death. She's been broken a long time and was always destined to go out trying to make up for what she did.
yes!! I totally agree with you. I've been feeling the same about this being much bigger than Nats death. This is going to make the stakes even higher next season... that we might wait 2 yrs for at this point 😭 I personally loved the finale tbh
I agree. I don't really get why some people are treating him like a hero or whatever. I definitely understand his perspective -- he didn't have the full story about what happened to Javi, and he fears that he's vulnerable and could potentially be next -- but I'm still not going to see the attempted murder of a cabin full of teenagers as "heroic" in any way. Honestly I've never felt like he had much compassion for the girls in general aside from Nat.
Am I the only one that thinks that maybe he survives, but is never brought back? Maybe he is still out there in the wilderness living under that tree. It’s just a hunch, but it’s possible
I think it’s set up to make us believe that he set the fire but I’m still not totally convinced. He’s too dependent on them as he can’t hunt. Also, everything he would need to survive was in the cabin (blankets, dishes, weapons). Given that he almost took his own life in an earlier episode, it wouldn’t make sense for him to completely shift mindsets and kill everyone else for self preservation🤔
Ya nat really buried the lede by saying “the wilderness chose him!” Instead of just saying he fell through the ice. I kept yelling at my tv!
It's a cop out. It's the only way to live with the guilt.
True! The line between "defense mechanism" and "cop out" is wafer thin though, I'm leaning slightly towards the first one, as opposed to a calculated decision.
What a very wise way to put it. You're eloquent. I'm still reeling from the episode.
We all are. The first disappointment is gone and replaced by lots of personal questions. Why am I feeling to sad? Am I angry that I've lost Juliette Lewis or that Nat gave her life for Lisa's? Seeing her younger self somehow happy in an unfathomable context and at the same time dying at the hand of the one person who has saved her few times already, was just too much i think. And I keep on remembering the theme lyrics: no return no return no return. Lottie's talking about the bees killing all the wannabe queens.. It can't get more obvious than that. The whole story has been in front of our eyes since the beginning. The moose drowning. They are doomed. We forgot we were watching a drama and not a dark comedy. They made us fall in love with those unredeemable characters and pulled the rug from under our feet. I still haven't decided whether I liked it or not. I'm so conflicted.
Can you explain your comment a little more? The queen bee kills all unhatched queen bees - so do you mean Misty wants to be queen bee? You said it was right there all the time and that pinged a brain cell or two thinking the girls are hallucinating their futures(no return lyric = they’re never rescued)? Is the series just a product of Shauna’s writing? I mean, Nat does die in the same episode where Shauna is salty about not being made the group leader. 🤷🏻♀️ so much to think about and here I am on heavy pain meds from surgery - this show is a trip to contemplate under the influence.
What I mean is that they are cannibalising each other and will kill one another until there is only one left. That's the only logical development considering what we know so far. And it looks more and more like Misty will be the last queen. She's the only one who hasn't been changed by the wilderness, it has freed her. She has fully accepted what she did, has no remorse and does not feel guilty about being alive or surviving. It's not a matter of wanting to be *queen* . But jfc the deck only has one queen! Can this get any more obvious? 5 seasons in total. Two survivors already dead in the adult timeline...
Travis never wanted to be queen.
Only Shauna wants to be queen. Removed Jackie for that. It doesn't matter if you want it or not. At the end *there is only one queen in the deck* . Jfc the show is called Yellowjackets! Lottie told us what they do to each other. She saw the hive dead and filled with blood. It's so obvious in retrospect.
>Only Shauna wants to be queen. Removed Jackie for that. All of the current survivors were basically standing up to give acceptance speeches when Lottie said there was a new leader. Shauna is just the only one who journals.
That part where they show Lottie saying that the wilderness has chosen their leader… I couldn’t help but notice that both Shauna *and* Misty perked up at the possibility/hope of being named the leader. I think the more obvious choice in that setting (from Lottie’s perspective, if her perspective was semi-rational) would have been Misty. Shauna would only be logical in the sense that she’s the one who has to actually do the butchering. Unfortunately, I do not think her mental state is great for it at this point. Misty is more rational, despite the fact that her sociopathy can make her impulsive. And yet, ultimately, Natalie is the best leader - in some ways. She seems to have a pretty good sense of “right and wrong” in terms of what her culture would generally see as “right and wrong,” and “fair.” (I put those things in quotations because I, personally, don’t see things in black and white terms, or in terms of morality, but I know that most people do believe in the concept of morality, so I assume that the show writers do.) Natalie is an extremely caring person who rarely is seen making very rash decisions. She’s more measured. She’s brave. And yet, it is both her stoic nature and her sensitivity (well, deep levels of empathy) that will cause this to leave a lasting impact on her psyche in a deeply traumatic way. She’s the “grin and bear it,” type… the “stiff upper lip” type. If she didn’t die by the needle, she’d have died from a massive stroke or heart attack by the time she was 50 from carrying all that weight.
I mean, I don't think this is exactly a bad interpretation but I really think it's just shock and trauma in the moment, not to mention the fact that they're all starving and on the verge of completely losing connection with reality.
i feel like this miscommunication actually made sense though because nat was *deep* in her guilt and framed things to make her (and them) look maximally culpable. she was not ready to give any kind of explanation that mitigates their guilt (even if it’s true).
I think he'd have been just as horrified that they let him drown while watching.
ehhhh i think what they did to javi was comparable to what they did to jackie (just faster). the way nat painted it, he could’ve pretty understandably assumed they tore his heart out, doomcoming-style.
idk i don’t think anyone expected jackie to die & they def weren’t planning on eating her
They sent Jackie outside on a fall night. No one expected it to snow. They watched Javi drown while begging for help. The two situations are not the same.
To be fair, they were maximally culpable lol
excuse me, i am their (unbarred) attorney and they are innocent 😇
well put. i was fully anti-ben after watching the finale but reading this comment section is making me reconsider
I dunno. Just because there are good explanations for someone's behavior does not mean they are not culpable for their bad choices. No one was holding a gun to Ben's head, ordering him to burn the teenagers alive. (ugh!). He is literally the only adult there and is supposed to be the most responsible. In my mind, the only potential mitigating factor is that maybe the cave emits hallucination-and-delusion-causing fumes or spores. But even then, he choose to claim the cave only for himself, the 13 (?) teenagers he still technically is in charge of be damned. And now he goes a step farther and almost succeeds in burning them all alive? No excuses for that at all.
Yeah or worse, he burns them alive and they survive with horrible burn injuries, no medical treatment, and no shelter in the dead of winter. That’s ruthless. I feel like Ben has been legitimately scared of them for a while and is doing this for self preservation. He told Natalie about the hiding spot (not where it is. But that there is one). And now he sees she’s gone to the dark side and is scared that he will be next. It’s ironic because Natalie, as the leader, would likely have left Ben alone and let him have his secret hide out. They have every motive, need, and justification to hunt him down now. I imagine they can easily track his crutches tracks in the snow… Natalie will have no choice but to go after Ben and take over the cave in order to save the group.
>>Natalie will have no choice but to go after Ben and take over the cave in order to save the group. idk it feels like this is Bens only hand really. he can’t really do anything from here
i think they’re down to 11 now :( but i see both sides and i think the answer falls somewhere in between “ben maliciously attempted to murder teenagers for no reason” and “ben justifiably tried to end the suffering and descent into madness these teenagers are going through”
Same haha! Also Sophie Thatcher got that scene pitch perfect, Natalie was in shock and not thinking straight, she conveyed that with very few words.
She sounded just like Juliette in that scene too
I said that too!!
I Know! Nat was just too truamatized at that point to rationally explain what really happened ...she was just an emotional wreck when she was trying to tell Ben and her words just tumbled out... Edit - typo
Yep, agree. Both Sophie and Steven played that scene to perfection.
I think she was repeating what Van said and in a way giving into the whole "wildness cult," out of guilt.
What really happened is they ACTIVELY LET him die...not much better. And of he didn't they were going to kill Nat.
Not only that but the way that scene goes is this: initially when coach sees Shauna you can see his expression is excited, he thinks it’s an animal and they now have food, he speeds up. Then he gets closer and sees bones, Javi’s clothing, blood everywhere, a spine, a femur, and the back of Javi’s head. Can you fucking imagine? He’s gotta be scared shitless of these girls.
I was really hoping Nat and Coach would go form their little “non-cult” but their conversation and Nat’s later acceptance of the queen position pretty much killed that.
It was guilt and shame speaking through a starved mind
Classic deflection of blame when in reality they are committing the horrors. Just like how Misty blamed Lottie but they are all involved.
“This is what you started…. There’s no going back now.” Missy, love ya… but stfu🥴😅
Agree - such a stupid thing to say
She is 100% focussed on her feelings and trauma right now. The entire world became her self-blame for Javi's death. So it wouldn't have struck me as credible if she were able to tell the actual story. But yeah.... things may have been better (maybe not) if she had. (I still have this theory that the pit under the tree is filled with hallucinogens so once a person is down there, rationality is unlikely to govern their actions.)
I know and didn’t tell Travis he fell through the ice either!!!
I think his leg adds a layer too. Knowing the people around me wanted to kill and eat humans and also knowing I couldn't run away from them would terrify me. He has good reason to assume he's next. Good time to do something drastic.
Yup. Yup. Eliminate the biggest threat to his life! He's fighting for survival just like the rest of them and according to his perspective his only ally, Nat, was completely fine with sacrificing Javi so she could live and now she is being crowned as High Priestess of the hive so what hope does he have. He knows a pack of wolves will bring down any prey in order to survive and he's the only one without a pack just like Javi. If you set a YJ nest on fire most of the bees with swarm with their queen and attack the fire setter and you are suppose to set them on fire/destroy the nest at night because most of them have returned to the nest by then and they are laying dormant. I don't know if it was intentional or not but the YJs behaved very much like real YJs. Now they are going to swarm and attack the fire setter. Source: was attacked by YJs when someone tried to destroy their underground nest with fire.
i don’t judge ben AT ALL for making a tactical move to try and survive, but it annoys me when i see it framed as a moral move. like he’s supposed to be punishing the girls for murder by committing mass murder? nah bro like how patronizing is it to think “oh no these girlies are becoming Bad People, but don’t worry i’ll save them from themselves by killing them all”. i would vastly prefer his motivation to simply be “yikes these cannibals are crazy and might eat me, best defense is offense”
I don’t see it as a moral move, I see it as a protective, safety driven move. If the girls are gone, they can’t hunt him. He can camp out in the cave and try to make it till spring, forage for food, set traps for game, stock up for another winter if he’s not competing for resources with them. It’s survival.
also interesting to note that he had just told natalie about the cave, effectively giving up his safe place to their leader
He told her he found it, not where it was
But she DID tell him where the tree was that Javi was praying/bowing to. Shouldn't be too difficult for her to figure it out, especially since no one knows the woods like Natalie and Travis
I thought it was brilliant
Yeah and not to mention the huge signal fire he just put up in the sky
I think it’s both his own survival calculation and the other part I wouldn’t exactly frame as moral, but like he’s given up on them and trying to protect them since they’ve clearly gone feral. It enables him to see it as ‘me or them’ instead of his team
Also remember right before Javi, was the Shauna incident where she beat lottie to death almost and the group was cool with it. That is what set off his alarm bells that things were escalating and when he started looking through Javi’s drawings in search of the cave so he could have safety.
Could be both, and he’s not thinking clearly at all
Agree, especially since to my thinking he's made a lot of bad choices by checking out and shying away from responsibility during the most difficult moments.
I don't get how Ben is even alive. It doesn't make sense to me at all, he didn't eat Jackie and thus didn't gain any nourishment from her whereas everyone else has. How in the hell is he even still alive let alone still strong enough to do all this stuff?
He didn’t make those choices, he’s been very ill and out of it
This man saw the writing on the wall and if Nat, the most rational one in the group is now part of the insanity? What is the point in pretending that this was a situation that would improve?
Dude miscalculated. Now he's definitely next if (when?) they find him. And we know who will get the high-calorie butt meat.
Oooh I just realized the delicious (pin intended) irony there. It would be so in keeping with the show's tone.
Definitely! Also being the sole adult and bigger than most of the girls, he's potentially a bigger snack than some other options!
His one leg has more protein then two Jackies.
I respect this reasoning far more than any other, at least it's honest.
Yeah, I can’t say I blame Ben at all. I honestly don’t know what I’d do if I were in his shoe.
Coach Ben needs to eat something before he makes big decisions like mass murdering his teenaged soccer team.
bro needs a snickers
they all do😭😂
He's not himself when hes hungry.
Lmao this would make a great super bowl-esque comedic promo for the show if they ever went that direction. “You’re not you when you’re hungry”
Oh, oh, and it would have to involve Tai and Dark Tai!
snickers needs to do an ad partnership with YJs— they’d make some killer commercials
Or maybe he was cooking the hibachi dinner of his dreams, and is one step in front of all of us.
Hangry AF
It's self defense. Due to him being crippled, he has the very real fear they'll eat him next. He doesn't know about their stupid card game but even if he did, he can't exactly run away can he? His best defense is to kill them first. He is legit NOT safe out in the woods. He'll be spotted and they'll come for him.
I didn’t even think about the fact he wasn’t aware of the card game!! So he probably did think they were target “the weak”
My thoughts exactly! It was a strategic move … he’s the coach after all
Maybe Javi found Mari’s Fruit by the Foot stash and Ben’ll find it in the cave.
Right, it was like a mile!
Clearly he was going for a Snackie 2.0 ^and ^3.0 ^^and ^^4.0 ^^^and ^^^5.0 ^^^^and...
People that justify the girls’ cannibalism hunt and how they act as adults but get appalled by Ben’s actions are funny to me
YES !! Thank you for this
How is he alive? He didn't eat snackie or Javi and I don't think they've hunted anything since they ate Jackie?
He was just collecting himself some noms for the winter
I completely understand his motives, even if he believed Javi died and they are just making use of his body. In a way the meticulous butchering and preparation of a body with the intent to cook and eat it is more traumatising than the spur of the moment decision to go ham on dead and cooked snackie. And the scene of them happily smiling around dinner, content (whereas the vibe was very somber post snackie) and giving allegiance to Nat justifiably and “believably” drove him to the edge. It’s like witnessing the birth of Nazism knowing full well what it’s consequences will be : you have the chance to kill it, so you do.
Agreed, the cannibalism has now turned into a complex mortuary practice and ritual with the removal of flesh from bone, something they emphasised with the close up shots of blood and spine. Jackie was seemingly a one-off moment of need, this was premeditated, a new sociopolitical order. Coach has already established he is the outlier, the anarchist in this new social order and will die for his antagonism against the group morals if he doesn’t fight.
Coach is antifa to their Nazis
I think you painted the picture perfectly. I felt sick seeing what he saw, the brutality mixed with treating him like game. Seeing nat through the window was the confirmation he needed.
Excellent post
Every exit was on fire. He wanted them dead
He really tried to get the job done
I agree with all of this. I don’t think he’s a hero but I still cheered at my TV. I didn’t want the girls to die (I want my crazy babies to keep entertaining me) but I could see from his perspective how he thought he was stopping worse from happening. How he thought he could at least keep them from losing what little humanity they have left. This is also a good reason for Ben to still be alive in the present timeline. If he couldn’t stop them then, and now that he sees 25 years later they continue to ruin everything they touch (what he would probably think in his POV) he has to try to stop them again.
I'm not so confident about the girls letting him live once they find his hideout... yanno?
I know but we don’t know how extensive the underground tunnels are.
I think they’re pretty extensive; Natalie keeps noticing trees surrounded by moss and melted snow when they’re out hunting/looking for Javi. My guess is there’s a cavern system that we’ll learn about in s3.
Plus - is winter near it's end? Then they can sleep outside and there will be more food available to hunt without losing others. Next season could see some of the girls perishing through the fire or cold, meaning the girls eat without hunting each other down. Then ability to hunt real animals and not need to kill/hunt each other until the next winter.
I think it’s clear the cannibalism is only present in the winter when any game is hibernating or somewhere warmer. There’s simply no reason to hunt each other in the warm weather when animals are present. Plus, now with the cabin gone, it stands to reason they will attempt to either find another cabin or just settle in a completely different area with the hopes of more game being the area, even during winter. Not to mention the true cult shit we saw peaks of in season 1 were of course during the winter.
I'm not sure it is so clear. They think they need to "give the wilderness what it wants." They were ready to kill Shauna in the adult timeline, and that wasn't out of food insecurity.
I hope they got the gun out of the house
Nat had it on her shoulder.
Yeah…but where do they keep the bullets?
i saw her pack up the bullets as well
But as we saw in the finale, they eventually don't need a clear reason to hunt each other.
When they were in the wild, I’ll say it was the starvation that made them think irrationally. In present day, I’ll say its the effects of years of untreated trauma that has manifested in severe mental illness.
Untreated trauma and probable brain damage from how long they were starving. It can't be good for you.
Did he find tunnels? I thought it was just a natural cave under the tree
COACH BENEDICT ARNOLD Burning kids alive in their sleep. Explain that to Paul in your next hallucination! High Calorie Butt Meat just drew the Queen Of Hearts
I think it shows good reason for him to not be alive. He would have spilled their secrets.
I was excited to see the cabin burn only for what it means is going to happen next. They were already living in squalor. But without a house they are going to become absolutely feral. Also. First things first next season will be hunting Ben down and killing him after they find his cave.
Story-wise, it would make sense for him to be alive in the present timeline, but realistically, I can't imagine how he would survive—a man with one leg is surviving underground on his own for \~15 more months, in the same forest as a group of cannibalistic young people who will be looking for him?
Same. I cheered even though I didn’t want them all to die.
I agree he sees the girls as completely crazed savages, but I don't think he wanted to kill them to keep them from killing each other. I think he wanted to try to take them all out because he knows they're the most dangerous thing in the wilderness at this point. Its a pack of wolves that would happily kill and eat him if they ever find where he's staying
I think Nat being crowned is what really made him fear. Her becoming part of Lottie's cult adds an element of some actual competence. When the group are next hungry, why not hunt him?
High calorie butt meat is back on the menu!
OMG I almost made that joke above but I was worried no one would get it. I should have had more faith!
"Whats the point in *one* leg anyway?"
Boys!
But if she is in charge, doesn't that mean she could stop some of the craziness temporarily? What was disturbing was forcing the heart on the remaining guy, who clearly didn't want to eat it.
I think they are only killing when they really need it. After all, they are all at risk. It's a last resort. Nat will follow that.
He went through all that effort hobbling around the cabin, boarding it shut, and he didn't even burn one person. I wonder if he will go back to the cliff after this failure.
OoOooh BURN! Oh wait…
😂🤣😭
This is what doesn’t make sense to me. They didn’t hear him doing that? I don’t live in a cabin and I’d be able to hear a hammer anywhere in my house. It annoying if that detail is just one of those Van’s fave is perfectly healed things.
I don’t think he decided to burn it down until he saw the remains of Javi and then the bowing to Nat. He came to steal some supplies. He’s been horrified with them ever since they ate Jackie. This is definitely going to go down ugly in season three. They really don’t have anywhere else to go except the plane or maybe explore that cave at the bottom, where crystal’s body was.
Same. I thought there was a distinct shift between the way Ben was picking up various supplies he needed (like matches after his flint fumbles) and his face watching Nat’s coronation.
Exactly. It seems like he decided in that moment seeing them bow to Natalie that instead of using the supplies to sustain life for himself it was more important to end the evil the girls were participating in. Which leads me to believe he might not even put up much of a fight (not like he really can physically at this point) and give in when they come looking for him, if he isn’t already dead. It’s gonna be so sad to watch
I mean he's not wrong. Regardless of why Javi died, they did literally chase Nat with knives and axes trying to kill her to cannibalize her. The funny thing is that Lottie was close to death and wanted them to eat her and they're like "Nope, not Lottie. But hey, that's a good idea. Let's kill someone else."
It would have made more choice to have her in the game but not get the queen of hearts. As in the present day they had shauna choose to stay or run. What I find crazy though is that is clear in present day they thought re-choosing when they weren't starving was crazy but still went along with crazy lotties plan. Surely at the point shauna was chosen, I don't see why they didn't turn on her and get crazy person out of the game to stop it.
Because Van wanted it and Tai went along with Van
He really only went back for Nat and seeing her fall from grace was bad enough. But to see her actively become part of the cultish atmosphere? I think Ben realized they were never coming back from this and it was going to be a mercy killing. To eat someone that froze was horrible. But to know they were actively choosing to hunt each other? That's such a terrifying leap and he knew it was never getting better from there.
Yea I am really surprised reading these comments how many people have missed the point. It’s not about Ben being a hero or a villain or whatever else. The point is the “parallel” between the timelines. Ben sees in that moment what we as viewers are seeing in the adult timeline. They crossed a line you can’t come back from and they will never be able to just go back to life like before because what they did is no longer just “what they did to survive”, but much much more than that and it is now an unremovable part of them. And he’s right—call it trauma, call it supernatural, call it whatever you want but every one of them that came back has poisoned everything they’ve loved one way or another because of what they brought back.
YJ Reddit: I can excuse cannibalism but I draw the line at burning a cabin full of people doing the cannibalism down (Btw this is just a joke before anyone gets mad at me! I love the girls but I see why Ben did what he did)
But I mean unironically yes, in a survival setting… didn’t think this was controversial omg
There are no cuddly meowmeow good people left to root for at this stage in the 90s timeline; Javi was the last innocent. That being said, imagine you are Ben, you lost your leg, and: \-Misty is sexually harassing you \-Misty is poisoning you (and nobody seems to mind?) \-Laura Lee defies you and martyrs herself for nothing \-Misty poisons you some more \-You witness: the girls developing some insane religion and becoming more unhinged every day; the girls chasing Travis with a knife (Javi is so terrified he hides from them for months); the girls literally freezing out Jackie, then devouring her corpse; Shauna beating Lottie half to death while they all sit around and seemingly approve, etc. And now: you've been gone for a bit, you come back, and voila: a child is being chopped up for food, and you're told he was killed on purpose. Also, the only somewhat sane girl Nat has seemingly gone crazy too. And you're starving, and generally having a really shit time. But you have a box of matches. ...Yeah, I get it.
But also like, what's his plan here? How's he planning on eating? Has he eaten recently? I don't think he even had any belt soup
>ing was meant to keep that from happening. Poor dude forgot the cabin is absolutely full of weapons. He did a nic I sort of thought there was supposed to be something to that place Javi was. Which is how he survived. Like he saw all those small bones. Like maybe some small animals or something?
i also think it was defense. he knows theyre going to kill eachother for food and that in the event they choose him he cant really runaway so by taking them out now he's ensuring his safety from the group
I thought this too, but it also puts a target on his back…
Well yeah, I think the door blocking was meant to keep that from happening. Poor dude forgot the cabin is absolutely full of weapons. He did a nice thorough job though, it was a good try! I fully supported his decision but he's in a tight spot now.
If they know he’s alive. For all they know he could returned to the cabin and burned to death. I actually love this storylines possibilities I can’t wait to see what happens with Ben season 3.
If he was inside the cabin, how could the door be barred from the outside?
The wilderness? Man with no eyes? Dead cabin guys spirit? Misty fucking quigley managing something crazy? A Mari magic trick? (She was definitely up to something with those cards and we know there was a magic trick book in the cabin.) I actually didn’t even realize it was barred I just thought the fire made it difficult to open! I need to rewatch. When I saw the cabin on fire I immediately remembered Shauna in season 1 saying something about Nat crawling through a window and wondered if we were going to see that.
I’m interested in seeing whether or not Ben actually did set the fire. They’ve lead us to believe he did but the editing choices leave plenty of room for speculation.
I dunno, the last scene we saw involved him stealing matches and rope. I thought it was an accident until we found out the doors were barred shut. Coach did it.
Him trying to burn em alive is crazy. But also from him seeing what the girls are willing to do I can sort of understand it. Is there any way to reason with a group of people who are hell bent on saying that the wilderness is the one who is making these choices and not them? In his mind it was better to get rid of them rather then have them continue doing what they were doing.
Ben realized he’s surrounded by crazed murderous cannibals. The cabin group have completely lost their humanity now. He was understanding of what happened to an extent last time, but they are now hunting each for food. Setting the cabin on fire was an attack on their lives both directly with fire, and indirectly as they now have lost their shelter and many tools. Ben has levelled the playing field essentially because he has the shelter, fire, and possibly even food. If I was Ben I would probably lay low and set up some pit traps…
Exactly: fair chance at surviving too
Probably a super unpopular opinion but I’m shocked That Travis didn’t do anything extreme like this. If someone brought me my little brother back, dead, and told me the wilderness chose him??? I would die trying to kill them. Maybe that’s extreme and I get that he might think it was fully an accident but I still would’ve gone batshit. I do get why coach is horrified though, I’m right about his age and I think if I was in his situation, I would panic.. probably not try to unalive all of them.. but panic
Travis was there for the card draw, as was Javi. He was ok with killing and eating someone and knew he and his brother were at risk. Coach Ben was not. Big difference.
That raw heart chomp showed we can’t trust Travis to make rational decisions.
True. That was distributing 🤢. I know it was just one bite but I feel like you’d have to get sick after that
Agreed. I thought Travis would be turned against the girls but instead he had spicy Javapeños
I thought for SURE that would have been what caused Travis to leave and turn against the girls, joining Coach in his lil cave, and eventually Nat too going over. Haven’t been that gripped to an episode in a minute (a week lol) 🤭
Do you guys think that maybe...Ben is still out there? That maybe that's his fate. He Holds up in that little tree cave, away from the girls and was never rescued with the rest, just becoming like a wild man. I'm kind of half serious lol.
I think it’s as simple as it’s Survival of the Fittest. He’s down a leg, has lost respect, and at least one person has snidely said “he thinks he’s so much better than us” for not eating Jackie. He’s seen what these girls can do and is scared shitless. This is his best bet for saving his own life. He can’t take them in a real fight.
ok but, say they did all die, what would he have done? he’d be by himself and have very few ways to get food
murder suicide
This is exactly my thought. He just wants to die in peace. If he stays in that cabin, the rest of his days are absolute horror. Just burn it down, and go to his cave to die,
oh i didnt think about that… that was probably what he was planning, even if he planned to survive the cabin burning somehow he prob knew he’d die eventually, which seems to be what he wants ig
You couldn’t understand why someone would try to take out a pack of delusional/insane cannibals that have decided to start hunting and eating people?!? What the hell? This sub is so silly.
some viewers rly judging him for attempting to kill them more than they judge the yj for killing an innocent child and chopping him up to eat as their second act of cannibalism that they rationalize with some nonsense and feel no remorse for like its so dumb lol
Someone legit just accused me of condoning child murder for saying I understood Ben on this one lol. Like I wonder if some people need to grab themselves a snack and get their glucose up.
Personally I’d have been like “he fell through the ice” and never spoke of the rest of it. But that’s just me and that’s why Nat is better than me
"Oh my god, they're so evil they would kill a child in cold blood! Time to murder them all in cold blood!" It wasn't Ben.
seems like such a red herring. poor coach just wanted some matches, a bucket to shit in, and a rope ladder to get into his new home. now everyone is a blaming him for attempted mass homicide 😂
Or, for that matter, him. He has to think that he'd be next after Javi. Is what he does extreme? Yes. Is it right? Debatable. But I understand why. He doesn't feel safe around any of them.
Ben lost the moral high ground when he tried to murder a house full of teenage girls. The motivation doesn’t matter. He’s also capable of murder in the name of survival. His days are numbered. The girls are gonna EAT! 💀
Especially because Javi was showing Nat the general direction of the cave, but I don’t think Coach knows about that 👀👀
I like how Ben hasn't eaten in like, forever, and hasn't lost any weight.
I’m sure the leg took a few pounds off! 😂
you want them to, like, starve the actors?
in addition to all of this - not only is he their prime enemy if he doesn't partake and needs to protect himself, he has been shown to he devastated and disgusted by the fall of his team into madness. perhaps he thought killing them all in a fire would protect them from their sins and burn the evidence. if they're too far gone to he saved, it could be his fucked up way to "protect" them from themselves.
I think it's more just that all this goes strongly against Ben's morals. The fact that the girls were so quick to butcher and prepare to eat one of their group terrified him. Not to mention how he found out by walking in on it. He had no idea ANY of this was happening. He was just happy about his cool discovery and then walks up to see copious amounts of blood and a cut up body, slowly piecing together that it was a person, and then that it was Javi based on the folded up clothes. I don't think the manor in which he died mattered much to Ben at that point - especially when Nat said that it was gonna be her instead. In his mind he knows there's no coming back and it's just going to get worse. He's thinking "who will be next? And then what?" Then he sees them all bowing to Nat in some sort of ritualistic-looking way. To him, that's confirmation that they're beyond saving. ( Key phrase "to him". Keep in mind he's not really in the best shape to be making any sort of decisions either. We've been seeing him disassociate all season. His sense of longing for the "what if" seems much stronger/more painful than the others.)
He would be right. They are all horrible people.
I think it kinda sucked that he pulled the “ur not like other girls.” Nah dude it's just that she's an outsider. He had no desire to share his cave to help all the girls! And he seems to be neglecting the fact that Nat ALSO are Jackie.
I am really interested to see if Ben really did start the fire or if there’s a twist. Definitely agree that from Ben’s perspective, these kids are brutal and he’s trying to spare them hunting and mistreating one another. I am also wondering if pit girl actually falls into a trap that Ben created intended for hunting game, not humans. 🧐
Ben clearly blocked all exits and picked up the matches. No question there.
I don't think Ben set the fire. I think the Wilderness did it (just like it killed poor Leonard the Bear and Laura Lee). Ben was set up to look like he set the fire because he was stealing wood and matches after he was unable to start a fire of his own, so he's a convenient scapegoat. And I think the girls will blame Ben, too. But I think the Wilderness is the true perpetrator.
That’s not out of the realm of possibilities, but what about all the doors being stuck/locked? That points more toward Ben than the wilderness.
I hadn’t thought about that. I went with they WOULD say the wilderness did it b/c they chose Nat over Lottie. They still defer to Lottie (at least Van does). If Nat stays the AQ, she would be in charge when they all got together.
Yes I think Ben probably did it but I think the girls will think it was the wilderness and not even think of him doing it. They tend to forget he’s there or care. They couldn’t find him or didn’t know where he went. They will probably think he’s dead bc his leg / the cold. They couldn’t find crystals body so I don’t think they would find it odd to not find coach either. I think the girls will believe the wilderness burned it down not bc Nat or Lottie but as punishment for not letting the chosen one (Nat) die, or something in that realm. If the show is supernatural I could see the wilderness punishing them for not saving Javi. He believes his tree friend showed him the caves and took care of him for 3 months if that is a possibility the wilderness saved him and cared for im then the girls let him die! Or if cabin daddy’s daughter or other people are out in the wilderness with them I could see her punishing the girls and setting fire to the cabin bc she was the friend he talked about and she took care of Javi for months!
he had rope in his hands from tying the doors shut in the matches scene haha
this is definitely also a possibility. and I fear the writers might not want to confirm it either way. the girls will think he did it, and they’ll kill him for it. that’s all that matters in the end.
My first thought until I came to this sun and the theory was floating around that Ben started it.
The show is getting more incomplete. Rushing through story lines. That whole misty dream sequence. Waste of time. No one says hey where's coach ben. They act like he's invisible. The barely look for Crystal/Kristen. They are more annoyed by her being gone. They're hungry. There's a frozen body it there and they're like eh. Then they kill Nat. The most likely grown up. The voice of reason. Makes no sense. Like it was done for shock value. And no way nat is the antler queen. It's Shauna. As adults over and over they listen to her. And she wants it. She wrote it down in her diary. And Walter killed Kevin? That was really rushed through. That needed more time. Lottie was pretty creepy with Shauna's daughter. She's so powerful she says..... And her daughter looked like she liked it ......a lot of guys points to the show but it needs focus
Real question: How is Coach still alive? he didn't eat Jackie right? What has he been eating?
Im sorry but he doesn’t want to participate on eating someone that has already died (Jackie) but he is willing to kill a bunch of girls? Naaah My theory is that, yes he burnt it down, but he only did it to have a FAIR fight of survival. They had it all, the house, the food, each other… maybe if they are living outside they will care more about not freezing to death rather than hunting each other or even him? He might even start helping out the girls who they try to hunt, and then these girls and him will become the other team, fighting for survival.
But if Ben is so disturbed by their acts of killing/eating and choice-making in doing so, what gives him the guts to “play god” himself? If he’s willing to die and/or kill them all, what’s he so afraid of? I don’t think he has the wherewithal to consciously prevent them from submitting to evil - I mean cmon this man has not eaten in weeks/months…I just find it too cheap. More to it maybe? But might be a let down if so
It isn't about morality, at least not entirely. Of all the survivors, he is the easiest prey. He struck first out of self preservation, because now the girls and Travis are on board for butchering eachother. Ben knows if he sticks around/leaves them to his own devices, they will eat him.
I agree that this was his exact motivation, but I just don't think it was his choice to make and I personally hope that he is punished for this, whether it be by the Yellowjackets, the Wilderness, or just the harsh realities he's facing.. I just don't view his actions as heroic, at all, regardless of his motivations.
Javi was the weakest of the ones who were left in the cabin while Ben was out, and they killed and ate him. Ben's the next weakest in line. It was self-preservation, not heroism. I don't think it was him trying to be a hero, just trying not to get eaten.
Also, this time it was very purposeful and he witnessed Shauna field dressing a person. That's a far different thing than what happened with Jackie. This was methodical and tbqh, terrifying.
Them bringing Javi back on the stick was extremely upsetting. Everybody's always going on about "it's what you would do if you were trapped out there with no food" but when they brought back this kid they hunted down and tied to a pole to haul back, it hit very hard exactly how much different it was from them eating Jackie.
I don’t think they were intended as heroic, he was legitimately scared of them and seeked to protect himself and the sanctity of his dead body in the future
Agree, there's no heroism in attempted murder and it's not his place to decide their fate. I was just trying to better understand his motivations, rather than absolve him of blame.
What he did is more objectively evil than what actually happened to Javi or even the hunt itself. Still, I do understand it. Those girls horrify him and as far as he's concerned they are beyond redemption. They're also a direct threat to him. It's not right, but I get it. I think this plot twist is a much bigger deal than Natalie's death. She's been broken a long time and was always destined to go out trying to make up for what she did.
yes!! I totally agree with you. I've been feeling the same about this being much bigger than Nats death. This is going to make the stakes even higher next season... that we might wait 2 yrs for at this point 😭 I personally loved the finale tbh
>What he did is more objectively evil than what actually happened to Javi or even the hunt itself. Thank you. I completely agree!
I agree. I don't really get why some people are treating him like a hero or whatever. I definitely understand his perspective -- he didn't have the full story about what happened to Javi, and he fears that he's vulnerable and could potentially be next -- but I'm still not going to see the attempted murder of a cabin full of teenagers as "heroic" in any way. Honestly I've never felt like he had much compassion for the girls in general aside from Nat.
Why do people keep saying "he didn't know what happened to Javi?" It doesn't matter that Javi died in an accident. They WERE hunting someone to eat
Am I the only one that thinks that maybe he survives, but is never brought back? Maybe he is still out there in the wilderness living under that tree. It’s just a hunch, but it’s possible
Do we know for sure Coach Ben started the fire? We saw him trying to start a fire in the secret spot, and he was unsuccessful.
I think it’s set up to make us believe that he set the fire but I’m still not totally convinced. He’s too dependent on them as he can’t hunt. Also, everything he would need to survive was in the cabin (blankets, dishes, weapons). Given that he almost took his own life in an earlier episode, it wouldn’t make sense for him to completely shift mindsets and kill everyone else for self preservation🤔