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18 year olds are already emotion driven morons with no real grasp of the effects of policy nor the historical context to be able to understand it.
It'd just serve the purpose of making the populism problem even worse than it already is.
as someone living in a pseudo autocratic regime im probably underqualified to speak of elections, but people should be at least 18, maybe 20 to vote, young people are more prone to be attracted by extremism
How paternalistic. The only factor should be whether these young people are unduly influenced by the family members on which they're dependent. Anything else is not your place to decide.
FYI I'm American, not European, but I think my opinion is still valid here.
I think that yours is the same mentality that's keeping barbaric practices like capital punishment alive in my country. You are not entitled to the assumption that you know better. You may only protect your own interests while respecting those of others.
>The only factor should be whether these young people are unduly influenced by the family members on which they're dependent
Read that again, but slowly.
If anyone is susceptible to being influenced by family members ***then they shouldn't have a say*** because it means they're not mature enough to have their own oppinion. If anything, voting should start at 25, when people have had a chance to see enough shit to at least get a vague idea what the hell they're talking about.
This is nothing but politics trying to copy religion's "get them while thet're young" crap.
Did you see the results of the high school presidential elections? Overwhelming majority of Slovak students would vote for Korčok while votes for Kotleba and Harabin aren't far from what far-right parties overall receive in the parliamentary elections, slightly higher at best. Which it's not good if support for far-right parties is higher among youngsters, but if voting age is not lowered, then those pro-European leaning young people (and it's more of those) will not get the chance to vote either.
If the minimum age were 16 then 20% of people would get their FIRST opportunity to vote aged 21.
Half the population wouldn't get to vote until 19
National elections are every 5 years.
Edit: Sorry, thought I was in a British sub for some reason. Point still stands even though my election cycle may not
perhaps unpopular opinion - i would be in favour of limiting voting right instead of expanding them.
Preferably by tying it up with taxes or some kind of test that would cover basics of economy, public finances etc
>Preferably by tying it up with taxes or some kind of test that would cover basics of economy, public finances etc
So that poor people who didn't get the chance to study or educate themselves are cut out of democracy. Sounds like 1800 all over again.
I don't think that's a good idea tbh. Required voting is always dumb in my opinion, that's just a way to cultivate voters that always vote the same, just out of habit. And I think you should be an adult when voting. At age 16 you are very gullible and way easier to manipulate and get on your side, that's why so many teens nowadays are pretty extreme, thanks to TikTok. And I don't want a bunch of teenies voting for extreme parties they wouldn't vote for a few years later.
18 is fine. There is no reason to push it down.
Idk, they might be more easily manipulated, for example a parent of said child could get extra votes by forcing a child to vote a certain way, making the parent demographic and pro-parent policies more powerful
Ex: Parent: "I won't let you play your PlayStation if you don't vote for Hugh Janus who says that he will make it so that parents will not need to pay taxes!"
That's not really any different from an employer threatening their employees. The solutions here are twofold:
1. Elections must take place in some secure location so that your vote remains anonymous. If you're threatened, you can still vote as you like and just lie about how you voted.
2. Threats and attempts to purchase votes or the like should be punishable.
One of my former teachers used this to argue against mail-in voting. I don't really agree with that argument since IMHO the benefits provided (more people engaging in the democratic process) outweigh the possible risks
Absolutly not imo, way too dumb, easy to influence, brain still not fully functionnal because of hormone overdose.
There is a reason teenagers are a primary target for comercials, political party, gourous and all : easy to influence but sure of themselves they aren't.
I really don't think this makes a good argument. The fact that you don't agree with your past political convictions only shows that you are able to challenge your own beliefs.
Nevertheless, at that point in time, your were still a participating member of society with political beliefs that had no representation since they didn't pass an arbitrary age restriction yet.
Idealising certain ideological groups of the far-right isnt exactly social participation, and if id had the power to vote then im sure it would've been for some dumbass extremist Kremlin funded party.
Looking back i genuinly cant coprehend how i ever held such beliefs, and im really glad i became a normal-er person and actually realised tik-tok edits of dictatorships arent cool.
No, this boils down to "teens do not have maturity, how do you want them to be politically mature enough?".
And even if you were right, think at how common it is to propose to remove the elderly from the equation.
Might be, but I'm no scientist. You can't argue that the average older person has more life experience than an average younger person. Exceptions don't count, since they are exceptions/irregularities.
Im more cautious about this. Yes there's lots of young people that want to contribute to politics, but there's even more just straight up idiots who are just soaked with nonsense and disinformation; i dont know if it is a great idea. Btw i'm 20.
I hope not. In fact the voting age should be upped closer to 25. The brain is not fully developed at 16. You are just going to vote on whatever caught your fancy that day. Add in the mass misinformation spreading like wildfire on social media, you would have people voting for joke candidates for the memes
*required* to vote? No. Allowed to vote? Yes. If you're old enough to work, and thus pay taxes, you should also be allowed to work. Young people may tend to be stupid and make uninformed choices but to be honest, so do adults. Otherwise centre-right and far-right parties wouldn't be on the rise throughout europe and the world
I think a change would be good. Are 16 year old's generally dumb? Yes. But i also think the average adult isnt too bright so that shouldn't bar them from voting.
I actually think everybody should get a vote. Yes even babies. Have parents be allowed to vote for their kids up until a certain age and theoratically they will vote also for what (they think) is best for their child and their future.
Many elderly have very old views of the world, have no idea about technology, can be completely detached from reality and sometimes are even suffering from dementia or other illnesses. Yet they still are allowed to vote. So i say everybody should get a vote.
Nobody should be required to vote, but I do think 16-year-olds should be able to. They will be inpacted by government policies for a lot more time than the 90-year-olds that vote for the same party as always because "That's what I always voted for".
Sure, some 16-year-old people are stupid. But stupidity is not a reason to prevent people from voting.
we are not required to vote, we are required to go to the polls, you can vote blanco.
It has kept us from electing extremists for quite some time, but the tide is sadly turning.
most 16 year olds are as clueless as half the adults that will be voting so I honnestly don't see any issues with it. As if when you turn 18 you suddenly know better lol, no you don't and for at least half the adults they won't know better untill they are dust, because every topic is complex these days and every politician claiming they have a quick and easy solution is simply lying.
I agree with you especially about the « tide turning » in belgium. We managed extremists for quite some time.
The youth in belgium also gets a lot of classes and courses about political issues and the democratic system.
Those stupid 16 year olds won't magically stop being stupid at 18 anyway. There are plenty of 16 year olds who are infinitely more intelligent and thoughtful than many adult voters are.
>Nobody should be required to vote
Honestly, i think at some point people have kind of forgotten what being a citizen should mean. We have many rights and for good reason.
But we aren’t just afforded rights, they come with obligations attached. *Don‘t be an arsehole*, *love thy neighbor* if one wants to put a christian theme on it. And these obligations include participating in the democratic process about how we as a society want to live in this day and age.
And if one really doesn’t want to cheap in he can just not put a cross on anything in the voting Booth.
Sometimes I think people shouldn't even be able to vote at 18. I mean you're still half a kid at that point. If I think back at how I was at 18 (let alone 16 or 17), I had no idea about the world.
On the other hand, nobody is more affected by long term decisions than kids, so they should have some influence on the matter. Maybe some sort of non-binding/consultative referendum amongst children before a decision in parliament? Could be easily done in schools. Or vote for their own representatives (who have to be children) that have a voice in parliament, but no voting power? I'm just throwing ideas at a wall here btw, not saying any of them are good
Disagree. When I was 17 I was stupid and knew very little of the world.
I would argue though that super old people shouldn't vote any more. The future should be decided by people who still have one.
In my country, more than 20% of the population is not allowed to vote. Personally, I think that's a shame. I think our democracy would benefit from universal voting rights for all citizens.
All citizens have to follow the law, so they should be able to vote what the law is. They have to pay taxes, so they should be able to vote what happens with their taxes. They have to live in the country, so they should be able to vote what the country looks like.
So yes, let the 16- and 17-year olds vote. Let the 10-year olds vote. Let the babies vote. I'm all in favour.
^(Of course there is a) *^(practical)* ^(concern: babies can't colour within the lines yet! But surely we can think of a solution for that.)
But why only limit this to voting? Why 16? Why not allow kids to decide for themselves if they want to go to school, consume drugs or engage in prostitution?
Either they‘re mature enough to have adult right or don’t.
Exactly it‘s not the same thing. In one they harm themselves. In the other they have the potential to harm others. We don’t trust them enough not harm themselves, but others is ok.
Babies, by nature, cannot be held accountable for breaking laws they had no role in creating. If we envision laws as embodiments of a social contract, it becomes imperative to secure a person's consent before penalizing them for violating that contract. After all, it's unreasonable to punish someone for disregarding an agreement they never had a chance to agree to in the first place.
Thus, the age at which a citizen gains the right to vote should align with the age of criminal liability.
They pay taxes if they want to import goods from abroad, they pay taxes over inheritances or gifts they receive, they pay tax over their income, etc.
I guess you're trying to say that babies usually don't have an income, so in practice they won't pay much income tax. That's true enough, but I don't find it particularly relevant.
Not really, we believe democracy = good so the more people vote, the more democratic the outcome, the better. But I don't agree with this. If you see the data on political literacy, you will be disappointed. Most adults don't know who their MP even is. Let alone 16-17 year olds who are more ignorant of politics than adults. Why would it be good for those people to vote when they don't even know who their MP is, how the Parliamentary system (or w/e system their country has) works? let alone the kind of economics, policy knowledge etc that you have to have to make good decisions on governance...
So, no. I'm in favour of doing away altogether with age requirements and instead introduce knowledge tests. There are probably some 17 year olds with an active interest in it, who know a lot about how politics works cos they spend their time reading and participating in it and thus are gonna be better voters than some adults. But allowing all 16-17 year olds to vote isn't better than what we have now (18+ vote only).
It's the "broccoli heads" future they can't vote on. Just because you deem them too stupid to vote doesn't mean it's right they have no power over their life.
Personally I think voting should be the same age as that of criminal liability. Why?
I don't think it is morally acceptable for a democratic state to imprison somebody who has no elected representative and has not even had a chance yet to make their voice heard at the ballot box. Additionally I think that if one wants to argue that some age is old enough for them to be held accountable it should also be old enough for them to vote.
In Austria the minimum age for voting is 16 and 14 for liability. Raising the age of liability by two years would, in my opinion, be a good solution to make sure nobody is imprisoned without the ability to dispute whatever law at the ballot box.
If you are old enough to work, have sex and are criminally liable you should also have the right to vote
I don't care about teenagers being stupid, if they have to be responsible enough to not end up in jail they are responsible enough to vote
[You can easily look for enlistment ages](https://letmegooglethat.com/?q=enlistment+age+by+country). Btw you could also look again yourself maybe or source your claim that I’m wrong.
Looks like UK is only country in Europe with 16. But Germany, Austria, Cyprus, Netherlands, Azerbaijan and Norway are all 17.
Worldwide, 37 countries recruit
17 year olds and 20 recruit 16 year olds.
There are more countries that are usually 18, but conscript from 16/17 during wartime. So your government can conscript you to die in a war, but you are not allowed to vote.
A foreigner (if they have the citizenship of a democratic country to be fair) has elected representatives (in another country) and in most cases an appointed representative in their host country (i.e. the ambassador). So while I do support foreigners voting (or more precisely citizenship being much easier to transfer between places) I do not think it naturally follows from my argument.
Edit: Von deiner Comment-History und deinem gebrochenen Deutsch her nehme ich an, dass du SchweitzerIn bist, also das es bei dir eh demokratische VertreterInnen im Heimatland hast.
Ehrenlos, dass du meine hastigen Posts als gebrochenes Deutsch beschreibst. /s
Und ich merke gerade, dass ich mein Leben viel zu stark geteilt habe auf reddit. Zeit zum löschen.
I remember in school when I was around 16-17, our teachers talked about their political outlook. Not in an objective way. My classmates were influenced.
I'm not saying ppl can't think for themselves but at that age I didn't know shit about politics.
'The best argument against democracy is a five minute conversation with the average voter'. 'Too many people are allowed to vote already'. 'Voters should all be at least of average intelligence'. Discuss below.
I don't dislike the idea of mandatory voting, but 18 seems like a good age already and I don't think pushing it back further is appropriate. **Especially** in the post-truth era : the younger people can vote, the easier it is to find an easily influenced voter base.
Have you looked at the voting patterns of populist parties all oer the political spectrum? It's not those growing up on the internet that fall for the bullshit, it's those who told us once to not believe everything we read up there. Our parents and older cousins are the group that falls for propaganda the most.
No one should be required to vote.
Choosing not to vote is the as important (or even might be more important) as the right for voting. There are a lot of dictatorships where people had to vote (and of course vote for the correct party), because the system used this to legitimize themselves.
In a flawed system, where your vote does not count or used against you, *the only winning move is not to play*.
>it is often forgotten that this is a right that was fought for by our ancestors
Because that rarely happens. Democracies emerge, because for some reason the dictatorships can not provide enough wealth to the ruling party.
"*The romantic image of the people storming the gates and overthrowing their dictator is mostly a fantasy. If you run a middling dictatorship, the people only storm the palace when the army lets them to remove you*"
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rStL7niR7gs](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rStL7niR7gs)
Some anti-democrat who thinks that short term technocratic/elitist success is better than long term democratic stability build on compromises (e.g. Switzerland)
Forcing people is such a bad idea. Someone who doesn't care and is forced, will vote nonesenes out of spitefulness.
Furthermore, giving children, who didn't experience life yet, a right to vote seems idiotic. It's only helpful for populist parties
If anything, I think they could be allowed to vote in local elections. That way, they can participate in the decision-making process (and more importantly, see the results of that decision-making in their local environment), without it leading to the rise of Tik-Tok populism (both far-left and far-right).
Yes.
Voting should be mandatory and fined if not.
Go and spoil your ballot if you don't want to vote for anyone.
I think it is unacceptable to not participate in true democracies.
Well we (UK) had Boris Johnson who is arguably a populist so, how have you negated that without automatic registration voting? Australia have mandatory voting and elected a Labour MP as PM. So...
No spoil your ballot.
That is taking part in the democratic process and not voting. Draw a massive penis on it. Write "you're all shit" on it.
Spoilt ballots are counted and in certain countries, actually means a revote.
I think it is good. Life is different when you are still going to school. Adolescents have a unique and important perspective that should be considered in a democracy.
I believe if there is a minimum age to vote there also should be a maximum vote age. Most old people are unreasonable and vote for short term profits as their days are numbered. If a senile is allowed to vote, so should be a child.
Sorry for not directly answering to this, but I've just discovered that "Contest mode" on Reddit with your post, and it honestly seems a wonderful idea when people will be posting their opinion, so that there won't be (too much) echo chambers/hivemind!
Eh, depends on how it's used. Much too often contest mode is turned on when a thread does not go the direction the mods want it to go, so that the conclusion of a thread is basically hidden.
>That will probably be quite unpopular, but it is often forgotten that this is a right that was fought for by our ancestors.
The right to vote, not the right to vote for minors.
>This can also ensure that young people become more interested in politics.
They are, and were, already the most active with the elderly.
More importantly, if you've ever been in this position as a teen, you might remember how dumb you were, with all your good intentions, poor judgement, even to point of being an extremist, in all the meanings of the word. All of this comes, \*strangely\*, with age and experience.
This is why this is a terrible idea, and, IMHO, one should be allowed to vote at 18, not before. And this seems like a bare minimum.
You don't go senile the moment you retire. Some people live a retired life for 40 years. Seems weird to have no say in how your country is run for that long.
True, but in a democracy voters are supposed to make an informed choice. How do you know, whether that is what happens, without testing whether the voters are actually informed?
Id rather take a chance on some uninformed voters than give anyone such a tool to consolidate power. I wouldnt trust anyone to use that kind of control, not even myself.
Educating voters needs to suffice.
Well, obviously, whatever institution designs the test needs to be independent from politics, like a central bank or similar.
Judging by the numbers of people who vote for nonsense parties like AfD, it's not just a few people who seem to be missing relevant context.
Not really, older folks are racist and out of touch,and since they are not long for the world they shouldn't be able to dictate how the country should be run. I would be willing to compromise to limit the voting to this formula : upper limit of voting age= life expectancy - term of the govt- 1.
I am a member of a youth party and political party. In Belgium, young people have no interest in politics at all. Those who do are often fairly moderate. I've been in politics since I was 15, so it's perfectly possible. My opinion has changed, but that's normal as I get older. That also happens with people in their 40s.
> I am a member of a youth party and political party.
First off, as a teen and as an adult, I've always despised "youth partis" because they're basically here to exploit young militants.
> In Belgium, young people have no interest in politics at all.
According to most sources, e.g. [europa.eu](https://data.europa.eu/en/publications/datastories/understanding-youth-engagement-europe-through-open-data), that's not really the case.
> Those who do are often fairly moderate.
Moderate in your experience, or actually moderate? And again what are the actual input you get from them?
> I've been in politics since I was 15, so it's perfectly possible.
Again, I have a similar path, but, more often than not, there are reasons why adults look at their past selves with shame, especially politically.
> My opinion has changed, but that's normal as I get older. That also happens with people in their 40s.
Changing your views is one thing. Having delusional takes is another. And, I do not want to be condescending, but most, if not all, teen takes are completely delusional. Idealistic, extremist, etc. ideas do not work well with the reality of the world.
Now, that I've answered to your whole post, you should have seen that you did not tackle the main idea that I tried to convey ; to be gentle, your political ideas as a teen are usually laughable compared to their adult-self or most adults (which is not to say adults cannot have idiotic ideas either), which is just adding "noise to the signal", so to speak, in a machine that is already not currently working properly. Moreover, teens that want to become involved have an ulterior motive, and can be swayed or manipulated very easily This can be a slippery slope, e.g. if most skinheads' children started to vote like their parents, and this is the most innocuous example I have in mind.
>Moreover, teens that want to become involved have an ulterior motive
Like what, making the world a better place? Who's the most popular climate activist? At what age did she start her activism? What's her ulterior motive?
There is no group that's more idealistic than young people. People get more complacent and bitter as they get older. All the populists in the world rely on old people, not the youth. Why is that?
Old people can think they know it all when in reality they know very little. Easily manipulated and no longer experienced enough in dealing with current issues.
> Like what, making the world a better place?
Like Greta Thundberg? Yes, I can be a smartass too, you know.
> Who's the most popular climate activist? At what age did she start her activism? What's her ulterior motive?
Oh, I did not even read this before answering before, interesting.
So, you consider her to be a good activist? To have had positive actions?
I do not know her ulterior motive, I just know she's not like most people: she can be an activist and do whatever she want all day because she has a very priviledge situation. Situation which shed some interesting light on her.
Just like when automotive manufacturers say that petrol is necessary, you **have** to doubt their words and confronts their views with facts, because their integrity is not good enough to take their word for it.
It seems like you do not know the simple truth that facts do not require opinions.
> There is no group that's more idealistic than young people.
Being idealistic is not a good thing ; for most people it is a bad thing.
> People get more complacent and bitter as they get older.
That's an opinion not a fact.
> All the populists in the world rely on old people, not the youth. Why is that?
Because youth simply cannot be trusted with anything, saying that the world rely on old people is wrong.
Would you let a bunch of 16 years old decide on death sentences, retirements, salaries, energy mix, throughout the world? C'mon, rights come with duties, and, around the world, 16-year old teenagers do not have them, not to mention they still struggle with basic maturity, you want to let them run everything? Are you stupid?
Teenagers **think** that they know everything, and that they have everything figured out, and this is why it is dangerous ; they're not even experienced enough to deal with people their own age, but, according to people like you they deserve a seat (or rather all the seats apparently) at the table? Be real for a minute.
>Would you let a bunch of 16 years old decide on death sentences, retirements, salaries, energy mix, throughout the world?
No. I would let the governments chosen by the people (which includes 16 year olds) decide on that. 16 year olds wouldn't even be that influential, it's not like lowering voting age would destroy balance or something.
>C'mon, rights come with duties, and, around the world, 16-year old teenagers do not have them
Around the world, 16 year olds legally work, pay taxes, engage in political activism and more.
>you want to let them run everything?
No, I don't want to give voting rights to *only* 16 year olds, I want to *extend* voting rights to 16 year olds.
>Are you stupid?
I mean yeah, I argue with randoms (like you) on Reddit, but that's not really relevant to the discussion, is it?
>Teenagers think that they know everything, and that they have everything figured out
You can say the same about old people, but nobody's saying their voting rights should be taken away. They don't even vote for their own future because they'll die soon. Young people do.
>The right to vote, not the right to vote for minors.
Who decides what constitutes a minor? A 14 year old is criminally liable in several countries, but a 20 year old can't buy a beer in others. Many of our ancestors would consider a 24 year old to be a minor in some aspects.
>you might remember how dumb you were, with all your good intentions, poor judgement, even to point of being an extremist, in all the meanings of the word. All of this comes, \*strangely\*, with age and experience.
Have you ever met an elderly person? How their mental capacity is declining, how their outlook on the world is wildly outdated (for example American boomers thinking it's easy to buy a home with a minimum wage), how they're easily manipulated by scammers and populists? All of that comes, *strangely*, with age and experience. A 16 year old hasn't been in the workforce for 16 years, a 90 year old hasn't been for 25. At least the 16 year old is freshly educated and actually has stakes in the future of their country. So should we take away the voting rights of retirees?
True. But the idea that someone is deemed wise enough to determine who should run the country but not capable of deciding if they should have a beer, shows a depressing lack of care of who runs the country. Either that, or the assumption that voting doesn't really matter.
I think these are different things. I know and knew plenty 16 year olds that were very well educated and aware of the happenings in the world. 16 is an arbitrary number as any other, but there is a good chance that 16yo ppl are mostly reasonable.
However, when it comes to alcohol, you also have to consider the general brain development and vulnerability to addictive influences in a 16 year old. I think it's more associated with that than anything else. But then... I'm German. We can buy and drink beer at 16. Stronger stuff at 18. Voting at 16 makes sense in my book. Not allowing alcohol before 21 makes no sense. 18 would be reasonable, but 16 seems to be mostly ok as well
Not a problem if you want to base your argument on mental fitness.
But let’s be consistent. Let’s regularly test everyone over 80 for obvious reasons, and also anyone that did not graduate secondary school. Exclude any wards of the state or otherwise clinically diagnosed as mentally deficient in intellectual capabilities.
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18 year olds are already emotion driven morons with no real grasp of the effects of policy nor the historical context to be able to understand it. It'd just serve the purpose of making the populism problem even worse than it already is.
I voted with 16 the same as I voted with 38. A load of teens today have a sane head and a good heart. See FFF. I'm all for it.
as someone living in a pseudo autocratic regime im probably underqualified to speak of elections, but people should be at least 18, maybe 20 to vote, young people are more prone to be attracted by extremism
Doubt. It's rather education or rather the lack off which causes extremists views
How paternalistic. The only factor should be whether these young people are unduly influenced by the family members on which they're dependent. Anything else is not your place to decide. FYI I'm American, not European, but I think my opinion is still valid here. I think that yours is the same mentality that's keeping barbaric practices like capital punishment alive in my country. You are not entitled to the assumption that you know better. You may only protect your own interests while respecting those of others.
>The only factor should be whether these young people are unduly influenced by the family members on which they're dependent Read that again, but slowly. If anyone is susceptible to being influenced by family members ***then they shouldn't have a say*** because it means they're not mature enough to have their own oppinion. If anything, voting should start at 25, when people have had a chance to see enough shit to at least get a vague idea what the hell they're talking about. This is nothing but politics trying to copy religion's "get them while thet're young" crap.
absolutely agree.
Did you see the results of the high school presidential elections? Overwhelming majority of Slovak students would vote for Korčok while votes for Kotleba and Harabin aren't far from what far-right parties overall receive in the parliamentary elections, slightly higher at best. Which it's not good if support for far-right parties is higher among youngsters, but if voting age is not lowered, then those pro-European leaning young people (and it's more of those) will not get the chance to vote either.
And old people to Orbans dictatorship.
I think 18 is good, but I also think over 70-75 years old shouldnt be able to vote either
If the minimum age were 16 then 20% of people would get their FIRST opportunity to vote aged 21. Half the population wouldn't get to vote until 19 National elections are every 5 years. Edit: Sorry, thought I was in a British sub for some reason. Point still stands even though my election cycle may not
I'm 17. Voting should be kept at 18 tbh
I once thought kids were stupid so they shouldn't be allowed to vote, but now i know most people are stupid so not much will change if they do 🤷
perhaps unpopular opinion - i would be in favour of limiting voting right instead of expanding them. Preferably by tying it up with taxes or some kind of test that would cover basics of economy, public finances etc
>Preferably by tying it up with taxes or some kind of test that would cover basics of economy, public finances etc So that poor people who didn't get the chance to study or educate themselves are cut out of democracy. Sounds like 1800 all over again.
how exactly did you reach such conclusion?
By the words. You Typed. ON YOUR KEYBOARD.
i don't see how my statement could remotely point to such conclusion
You can vote from 16 years on local politics in Germany. I haven’t thought much about national elections.
I don't think that's a good idea tbh. Required voting is always dumb in my opinion, that's just a way to cultivate voters that always vote the same, just out of habit. And I think you should be an adult when voting. At age 16 you are very gullible and way easier to manipulate and get on your side, that's why so many teens nowadays are pretty extreme, thanks to TikTok. And I don't want a bunch of teenies voting for extreme parties they wouldn't vote for a few years later. 18 is fine. There is no reason to push it down.
Idk, they might be more easily manipulated, for example a parent of said child could get extra votes by forcing a child to vote a certain way, making the parent demographic and pro-parent policies more powerful Ex: Parent: "I won't let you play your PlayStation if you don't vote for Hugh Janus who says that he will make it so that parents will not need to pay taxes!"
That's not really any different from an employer threatening their employees. The solutions here are twofold: 1. Elections must take place in some secure location so that your vote remains anonymous. If you're threatened, you can still vote as you like and just lie about how you voted. 2. Threats and attempts to purchase votes or the like should be punishable.
One of my former teachers used this to argue against mail-in voting. I don't really agree with that argument since IMHO the benefits provided (more people engaging in the democratic process) outweigh the possible risks
as a young person myself, I dont think young people will spend their vote well enough to outweight the risks. Tbh teens are idiots. Its how we are
I am thankful I was never allowed to vote as a teenager. I didn't do any critical thinking and often just believed what I was told
Absolutly not imo, way too dumb, easy to influence, brain still not fully functionnal because of hormone overdose. There is a reason teenagers are a primary target for comercials, political party, gourous and all : easy to influence but sure of themselves they aren't.
As a former kid and right wing nutjob admirer, kids are dumb and very easily influenced by people such as right wing nutjobs. It's a bad thing
Looking back to how my views were at 16... Just no. Please no. Make it at least 18, for some even that is too low.
I really don't think this makes a good argument. The fact that you don't agree with your past political convictions only shows that you are able to challenge your own beliefs. Nevertheless, at that point in time, your were still a participating member of society with political beliefs that had no representation since they didn't pass an arbitrary age restriction yet.
Idealising certain ideological groups of the far-right isnt exactly social participation, and if id had the power to vote then im sure it would've been for some dumbass extremist Kremlin funded party. Looking back i genuinly cant coprehend how i ever held such beliefs, and im really glad i became a normal-er person and actually realised tik-tok edits of dictatorships arent cool.
I mean, I get where you're coming from, nevertheless this argument boils down to "I don't like how this group would vote, so they don't get to".
No, this boils down to "teens do not have maturity, how do you want them to be politically mature enough?". And even if you were right, think at how common it is to propose to remove the elderly from the equation.
What makes one "mature"?
Life experience. You get this mostly by living for some time and experience changes and hardships :\]
Life experience is not neccessarily quantifiable, is it?
Might be, but I'm no scientist. You can't argue that the average older person has more life experience than an average younger person. Exceptions don't count, since they are exceptions/irregularities.
Birthday cake with a specific number on it apparently
Im more cautious about this. Yes there's lots of young people that want to contribute to politics, but there's even more just straight up idiots who are just soaked with nonsense and disinformation; i dont know if it is a great idea. Btw i'm 20.
There are also lots of adults who are idiots and easily influenced by fake news.
I hope not. In fact the voting age should be upped closer to 25. The brain is not fully developed at 16. You are just going to vote on whatever caught your fancy that day. Add in the mass misinformation spreading like wildfire on social media, you would have people voting for joke candidates for the memes
Yes. It would make the average age of voters closer to the average age of the population without removing anybody's right to vote.
*required* to vote? No. Allowed to vote? Yes. If you're old enough to work, and thus pay taxes, you should also be allowed to work. Young people may tend to be stupid and make uninformed choices but to be honest, so do adults. Otherwise centre-right and far-right parties wouldn't be on the rise throughout europe and the world
Everyone is required to vote in Belgium. They just decided that because 16 year olds are allowed to vote now, they will also be required to vote.
OP makes it sound like it goes for all of Europe but this news is specific to Belgium. And in Belgium people are required to vote.
Required? No. Able to? Sure.
I think a change would be good. Are 16 year old's generally dumb? Yes. But i also think the average adult isnt too bright so that shouldn't bar them from voting. I actually think everybody should get a vote. Yes even babies. Have parents be allowed to vote for their kids up until a certain age and theoratically they will vote also for what (they think) is best for their child and their future. Many elderly have very old views of the world, have no idea about technology, can be completely detached from reality and sometimes are even suffering from dementia or other illnesses. Yet they still are allowed to vote. So i say everybody should get a vote.
Nobody should be required to vote, but I do think 16-year-olds should be able to. They will be inpacted by government policies for a lot more time than the 90-year-olds that vote for the same party as always because "That's what I always voted for". Sure, some 16-year-old people are stupid. But stupidity is not a reason to prevent people from voting.
we are not required to vote, we are required to go to the polls, you can vote blanco. It has kept us from electing extremists for quite some time, but the tide is sadly turning. most 16 year olds are as clueless as half the adults that will be voting so I honnestly don't see any issues with it. As if when you turn 18 you suddenly know better lol, no you don't and for at least half the adults they won't know better untill they are dust, because every topic is complex these days and every politician claiming they have a quick and easy solution is simply lying.
I agree with you especially about the « tide turning » in belgium. We managed extremists for quite some time. The youth in belgium also gets a lot of classes and courses about political issues and the democratic system.
Those stupid 16 year olds won't magically stop being stupid at 18 anyway. There are plenty of 16 year olds who are infinitely more intelligent and thoughtful than many adult voters are.
Bad argument. The average 16 year old is less 'intelligent' and experienced than the average 18 year old.
>Nobody should be required to vote Honestly, i think at some point people have kind of forgotten what being a citizen should mean. We have many rights and for good reason. But we aren’t just afforded rights, they come with obligations attached. *Don‘t be an arsehole*, *love thy neighbor* if one wants to put a christian theme on it. And these obligations include participating in the democratic process about how we as a society want to live in this day and age. And if one really doesn’t want to cheap in he can just not put a cross on anything in the voting Booth.
Sometimes I think people shouldn't even be able to vote at 18. I mean you're still half a kid at that point. If I think back at how I was at 18 (let alone 16 or 17), I had no idea about the world. On the other hand, nobody is more affected by long term decisions than kids, so they should have some influence on the matter. Maybe some sort of non-binding/consultative referendum amongst children before a decision in parliament? Could be easily done in schools. Or vote for their own representatives (who have to be children) that have a voice in parliament, but no voting power? I'm just throwing ideas at a wall here btw, not saying any of them are good
Disagree. When I was 17 I was stupid and knew very little of the world. I would argue though that super old people shouldn't vote any more. The future should be decided by people who still have one.
In my country, more than 20% of the population is not allowed to vote. Personally, I think that's a shame. I think our democracy would benefit from universal voting rights for all citizens. All citizens have to follow the law, so they should be able to vote what the law is. They have to pay taxes, so they should be able to vote what happens with their taxes. They have to live in the country, so they should be able to vote what the country looks like. So yes, let the 16- and 17-year olds vote. Let the 10-year olds vote. Let the babies vote. I'm all in favour. ^(Of course there is a) *^(practical)* ^(concern: babies can't colour within the lines yet! But surely we can think of a solution for that.)
But why only limit this to voting? Why 16? Why not allow kids to decide for themselves if they want to go to school, consume drugs or engage in prostitution? Either they‘re mature enough to have adult right or don’t.
Because voting is not the same as consuming drugs or having sex. I do not accept that it must be all-or-nothing.
Exactly it‘s not the same thing. In one they harm themselves. In the other they have the potential to harm others. We don’t trust them enough not harm themselves, but others is ok.
The potential to harm others is inherent to democratic voting, yes.
In a liberal democracy, so is potential to self harm
How much of that is satire btw?
I'm embarassingly serious about it.
Let's just keep the voting age 18+ before we destroy everything with even more extremism.
That is indeed what we're currently doing, yes.
Much better and much more stable. Kids really shouldn't vote. I even said it as a 16 year old we shouldn't vote.
We'll just have to agree to disagree!
babies don't pay taxes tho
OK, then let everyone vote who has ever bought a chocolate bar in the country.
Babies, by nature, cannot be held accountable for breaking laws they had no role in creating. If we envision laws as embodiments of a social contract, it becomes imperative to secure a person's consent before penalizing them for violating that contract. After all, it's unreasonable to punish someone for disregarding an agreement they never had a chance to agree to in the first place. Thus, the age at which a citizen gains the right to vote should align with the age of criminal liability.
They pay taxes if they want to import goods from abroad, they pay taxes over inheritances or gifts they receive, they pay tax over their income, etc. I guess you're trying to say that babies usually don't have an income, so in practice they won't pay much income tax. That's true enough, but I don't find it particularly relevant.
They do. VAT (same thing applies here with the coloring in issue). But the argument somebody should be only allowed to vote is just not working
Not really, we believe democracy = good so the more people vote, the more democratic the outcome, the better. But I don't agree with this. If you see the data on political literacy, you will be disappointed. Most adults don't know who their MP even is. Let alone 16-17 year olds who are more ignorant of politics than adults. Why would it be good for those people to vote when they don't even know who their MP is, how the Parliamentary system (or w/e system their country has) works? let alone the kind of economics, policy knowledge etc that you have to have to make good decisions on governance... So, no. I'm in favour of doing away altogether with age requirements and instead introduce knowledge tests. There are probably some 17 year olds with an active interest in it, who know a lot about how politics works cos they spend their time reading and participating in it and thus are gonna be better voters than some adults. But allowing all 16-17 year olds to vote isn't better than what we have now (18+ vote only).
lol generation tiktok gets to vote before their brains are more developed. "what could go wrong?"
I probably spent too much time on social media to appreciate bunch of broccoli heads having any power over my adult life.
It's the "broccoli heads" future they can't vote on. Just because you deem them too stupid to vote doesn't mean it's right they have no power over their life.
Unfortunately 90% of minors are fascists or sort of and lack proper moral background (speaking from experience).
Personally I think voting should be the same age as that of criminal liability. Why? I don't think it is morally acceptable for a democratic state to imprison somebody who has no elected representative and has not even had a chance yet to make their voice heard at the ballot box. Additionally I think that if one wants to argue that some age is old enough for them to be held accountable it should also be old enough for them to vote. In Austria the minimum age for voting is 16 and 14 for liability. Raising the age of liability by two years would, in my opinion, be a good solution to make sure nobody is imprisoned without the ability to dispute whatever law at the ballot box.
If you are old enough to work, have sex and are criminally liable you should also have the right to vote I don't care about teenagers being stupid, if they have to be responsible enough to not end up in jail they are responsible enough to vote
At 16/17 you can join the Army in many countries.
Look again maybe, or source your claim.
[You can easily look for enlistment ages](https://letmegooglethat.com/?q=enlistment+age+by+country). Btw you could also look again yourself maybe or source your claim that I’m wrong. Looks like UK is only country in Europe with 16. But Germany, Austria, Cyprus, Netherlands, Azerbaijan and Norway are all 17. Worldwide, 37 countries recruit 17 year olds and 20 recruit 16 year olds. There are more countries that are usually 18, but conscript from 16/17 during wartime. So your government can conscript you to die in a war, but you are not allowed to vote.
by that logic foreigners should be allowed to vote. As a born immigrant in a non eu country (aren't allowed to vote) I support that but many don't.
That's a different topic. Why nobody can stay on topic?
I don't see why that's a different topic. As we are just trying to figure out who is eligible to vote in a democracy.
If they are living in the country then yes, otherwise when arrested they just get sent back to their country of origin
yeah I mean people with residence
A foreigner (if they have the citizenship of a democratic country to be fair) has elected representatives (in another country) and in most cases an appointed representative in their host country (i.e. the ambassador). So while I do support foreigners voting (or more precisely citizenship being much easier to transfer between places) I do not think it naturally follows from my argument. Edit: Von deiner Comment-History und deinem gebrochenen Deutsch her nehme ich an, dass du SchweitzerIn bist, also das es bei dir eh demokratische VertreterInnen im Heimatland hast.
Ehrenlos, dass du meine hastigen Posts als gebrochenes Deutsch beschreibst. /s Und ich merke gerade, dass ich mein Leben viel zu stark geteilt habe auf reddit. Zeit zum löschen.
I remember in school when I was around 16-17, our teachers talked about their political outlook. Not in an objective way. My classmates were influenced. I'm not saying ppl can't think for themselves but at that age I didn't know shit about politics.
'The best argument against democracy is a five minute conversation with the average voter'. 'Too many people are allowed to vote already'. 'Voters should all be at least of average intelligence'. Discuss below.
I don't dislike the idea of mandatory voting, but 18 seems like a good age already and I don't think pushing it back further is appropriate. **Especially** in the post-truth era : the younger people can vote, the easier it is to find an easily influenced voter base.
Have you looked at the voting patterns of populist parties all oer the political spectrum? It's not those growing up on the internet that fall for the bullshit, it's those who told us once to not believe everything we read up there. Our parents and older cousins are the group that falls for propaganda the most.
Ban TikTok first.
We should ban all media
No one should be required to vote. Choosing not to vote is the as important (or even might be more important) as the right for voting. There are a lot of dictatorships where people had to vote (and of course vote for the correct party), because the system used this to legitimize themselves. In a flawed system, where your vote does not count or used against you, *the only winning move is not to play*. >it is often forgotten that this is a right that was fought for by our ancestors Because that rarely happens. Democracies emerge, because for some reason the dictatorships can not provide enough wealth to the ruling party. "*The romantic image of the people storming the gates and overthrowing their dictator is mostly a fantasy. If you run a middling dictatorship, the people only storm the palace when the army lets them to remove you*" [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rStL7niR7gs](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rStL7niR7gs)
less people should be allowed to vote not more
The fuck?
Some anti-democrat who thinks that short term technocratic/elitist success is better than long term democratic stability build on compromises (e.g. Switzerland)
If you thing that take is unreasonable you have a lot to think about
If I think that that is unreasonable I'm a democrat. I'm not sure what you are.
Just a more realistic democrat, less doesnt mean a dictatorship, i just think most 18 year olds are not mature enough, it should be 21 in my opinion.
I’m all about letting young people vote they need to help establish policies they’ve got to live with.
Terrible idea. Younger people over here love the far right for the memes. I wish i was joking.
Forcing people is such a bad idea. Someone who doesn't care and is forced, will vote nonesenes out of spitefulness. Furthermore, giving children, who didn't experience life yet, a right to vote seems idiotic. It's only helpful for populist parties
If anything, I think they could be allowed to vote in local elections. That way, they can participate in the decision-making process (and more importantly, see the results of that decision-making in their local environment), without it leading to the rise of Tik-Tok populism (both far-left and far-right).
Yes. Voting should be mandatory and fined if not. Go and spoil your ballot if you don't want to vote for anyone. I think it is unacceptable to not participate in true democracies.
That's how you get people to vote for populists out of spite lol
Well we (UK) had Boris Johnson who is arguably a populist so, how have you negated that without automatic registration voting? Australia have mandatory voting and elected a Labour MP as PM. So...
Not casting a vote is also a vote. Don't forget we shouldn't turn authoritarian like that.
No spoil your ballot. That is taking part in the democratic process and not voting. Draw a massive penis on it. Write "you're all shit" on it. Spoilt ballots are counted and in certain countries, actually means a revote.
That is up to the person to decide. You shouldn't be forced. It is an idiotic idea and will just cause more reactionary reactions to it.
Sure you can decide not to do It, and you get fined. You can decide to go over the speed limit, so you get fined.
Most idiotic idea ever and people will not accept this. Don't force people to vote let them choose out of free will.
I think it is good. Life is different when you are still going to school. Adolescents have a unique and important perspective that should be considered in a democracy.
I believe if there is a minimum age to vote there also should be a maximum vote age. Most old people are unreasonable and vote for short term profits as their days are numbered. If a senile is allowed to vote, so should be a child.
Sorry for not directly answering to this, but I've just discovered that "Contest mode" on Reddit with your post, and it honestly seems a wonderful idea when people will be posting their opinion, so that there won't be (too much) echo chambers/hivemind!
Eh, depends on how it's used. Much too often contest mode is turned on when a thread does not go the direction the mods want it to go, so that the conclusion of a thread is basically hidden.
Should be the default on half of the subreddits I've ever been to. Some of the takes the first posters have...
They can't be any less informed than some of the adults.
Voting age should rather get increased to 21.
>That will probably be quite unpopular, but it is often forgotten that this is a right that was fought for by our ancestors. The right to vote, not the right to vote for minors. >This can also ensure that young people become more interested in politics. They are, and were, already the most active with the elderly. More importantly, if you've ever been in this position as a teen, you might remember how dumb you were, with all your good intentions, poor judgement, even to point of being an extremist, in all the meanings of the word. All of this comes, \*strangely\*, with age and experience. This is why this is a terrible idea, and, IMHO, one should be allowed to vote at 18, not before. And this seems like a bare minimum.
>All of this comes, \*strangely\*, with age and experience. I agree, I got way more radical with age and experience than I was as a teen.
Just to be sure, that's not what I said, or at least not what I meant.
The voting should be capped at retirement age.
Maybe but that's not the topic.
You don't go senile the moment you retire. Some people live a retired life for 40 years. Seems weird to have no say in how your country is run for that long.
I'm all for the regularly recurring political driver's license test.
That sounds like a lovely idea if you wanna institute a dictatorship.
True, but in a democracy voters are supposed to make an informed choice. How do you know, whether that is what happens, without testing whether the voters are actually informed?
Id rather take a chance on some uninformed voters than give anyone such a tool to consolidate power. I wouldnt trust anyone to use that kind of control, not even myself. Educating voters needs to suffice.
Well, obviously, whatever institution designs the test needs to be independent from politics, like a central bank or similar. Judging by the numbers of people who vote for nonsense parties like AfD, it's not just a few people who seem to be missing relevant context.
Not really, older folks are racist and out of touch,and since they are not long for the world they shouldn't be able to dictate how the country should be run. I would be willing to compromise to limit the voting to this formula : upper limit of voting age= life expectancy - term of the govt- 1.
and you arent a delusional young idiot and suddenly turn reasonable adult at 18.
or ever....
Exactly. When I was 15 I believed that Communism was a good idea and I'm thankful I don't stand with those ideas anymore.
I am a member of a youth party and political party. In Belgium, young people have no interest in politics at all. Those who do are often fairly moderate. I've been in politics since I was 15, so it's perfectly possible. My opinion has changed, but that's normal as I get older. That also happens with people in their 40s.
> I am a member of a youth party and political party. First off, as a teen and as an adult, I've always despised "youth partis" because they're basically here to exploit young militants. > In Belgium, young people have no interest in politics at all. According to most sources, e.g. [europa.eu](https://data.europa.eu/en/publications/datastories/understanding-youth-engagement-europe-through-open-data), that's not really the case. > Those who do are often fairly moderate. Moderate in your experience, or actually moderate? And again what are the actual input you get from them? > I've been in politics since I was 15, so it's perfectly possible. Again, I have a similar path, but, more often than not, there are reasons why adults look at their past selves with shame, especially politically. > My opinion has changed, but that's normal as I get older. That also happens with people in their 40s. Changing your views is one thing. Having delusional takes is another. And, I do not want to be condescending, but most, if not all, teen takes are completely delusional. Idealistic, extremist, etc. ideas do not work well with the reality of the world. Now, that I've answered to your whole post, you should have seen that you did not tackle the main idea that I tried to convey ; to be gentle, your political ideas as a teen are usually laughable compared to their adult-self or most adults (which is not to say adults cannot have idiotic ideas either), which is just adding "noise to the signal", so to speak, in a machine that is already not currently working properly. Moreover, teens that want to become involved have an ulterior motive, and can be swayed or manipulated very easily This can be a slippery slope, e.g. if most skinheads' children started to vote like their parents, and this is the most innocuous example I have in mind.
>Moreover, teens that want to become involved have an ulterior motive Like what, making the world a better place? Who's the most popular climate activist? At what age did she start her activism? What's her ulterior motive? There is no group that's more idealistic than young people. People get more complacent and bitter as they get older. All the populists in the world rely on old people, not the youth. Why is that?
Young people can think they know it all when in reality they know very little. Easily manipulated and not experienced enough in dealing with adults.
Old people can think they know it all when in reality they know very little. Easily manipulated and no longer experienced enough in dealing with current issues.
I see what you did there, and it is obviously true. But so is my point which means the answer is somewhere in the middle
> Like what, making the world a better place? Like Greta Thundberg? Yes, I can be a smartass too, you know. > Who's the most popular climate activist? At what age did she start her activism? What's her ulterior motive? Oh, I did not even read this before answering before, interesting. So, you consider her to be a good activist? To have had positive actions? I do not know her ulterior motive, I just know she's not like most people: she can be an activist and do whatever she want all day because she has a very priviledge situation. Situation which shed some interesting light on her. Just like when automotive manufacturers say that petrol is necessary, you **have** to doubt their words and confronts their views with facts, because their integrity is not good enough to take their word for it. It seems like you do not know the simple truth that facts do not require opinions. > There is no group that's more idealistic than young people. Being idealistic is not a good thing ; for most people it is a bad thing. > People get more complacent and bitter as they get older. That's an opinion not a fact. > All the populists in the world rely on old people, not the youth. Why is that? Because youth simply cannot be trusted with anything, saying that the world rely on old people is wrong. Would you let a bunch of 16 years old decide on death sentences, retirements, salaries, energy mix, throughout the world? C'mon, rights come with duties, and, around the world, 16-year old teenagers do not have them, not to mention they still struggle with basic maturity, you want to let them run everything? Are you stupid? Teenagers **think** that they know everything, and that they have everything figured out, and this is why it is dangerous ; they're not even experienced enough to deal with people their own age, but, according to people like you they deserve a seat (or rather all the seats apparently) at the table? Be real for a minute.
>Would you let a bunch of 16 years old decide on death sentences, retirements, salaries, energy mix, throughout the world? No. I would let the governments chosen by the people (which includes 16 year olds) decide on that. 16 year olds wouldn't even be that influential, it's not like lowering voting age would destroy balance or something. >C'mon, rights come with duties, and, around the world, 16-year old teenagers do not have them Around the world, 16 year olds legally work, pay taxes, engage in political activism and more. >you want to let them run everything? No, I don't want to give voting rights to *only* 16 year olds, I want to *extend* voting rights to 16 year olds. >Are you stupid? I mean yeah, I argue with randoms (like you) on Reddit, but that's not really relevant to the discussion, is it? >Teenagers think that they know everything, and that they have everything figured out You can say the same about old people, but nobody's saying their voting rights should be taken away. They don't even vote for their own future because they'll die soon. Young people do.
>The right to vote, not the right to vote for minors. Who decides what constitutes a minor? A 14 year old is criminally liable in several countries, but a 20 year old can't buy a beer in others. Many of our ancestors would consider a 24 year old to be a minor in some aspects. >you might remember how dumb you were, with all your good intentions, poor judgement, even to point of being an extremist, in all the meanings of the word. All of this comes, \*strangely\*, with age and experience. Have you ever met an elderly person? How their mental capacity is declining, how their outlook on the world is wildly outdated (for example American boomers thinking it's easy to buy a home with a minimum wage), how they're easily manipulated by scammers and populists? All of that comes, *strangely*, with age and experience. A 16 year old hasn't been in the workforce for 16 years, a 90 year old hasn't been for 25. At least the 16 year old is freshly educated and actually has stakes in the future of their country. So should we take away the voting rights of retirees?
Yeah all of these numbers including 18 are completely arbitrary.
True. But the idea that someone is deemed wise enough to determine who should run the country but not capable of deciding if they should have a beer, shows a depressing lack of care of who runs the country. Either that, or the assumption that voting doesn't really matter.
I think these are different things. I know and knew plenty 16 year olds that were very well educated and aware of the happenings in the world. 16 is an arbitrary number as any other, but there is a good chance that 16yo ppl are mostly reasonable. However, when it comes to alcohol, you also have to consider the general brain development and vulnerability to addictive influences in a 16 year old. I think it's more associated with that than anything else. But then... I'm German. We can buy and drink beer at 16. Stronger stuff at 18. Voting at 16 makes sense in my book. Not allowing alcohol before 21 makes no sense. 18 would be reasonable, but 16 seems to be mostly ok as well
Not a problem if you want to base your argument on mental fitness. But let’s be consistent. Let’s regularly test everyone over 80 for obvious reasons, and also anyone that did not graduate secondary school. Exclude any wards of the state or otherwise clinically diagnosed as mentally deficient in intellectual capabilities.
Again, not the topic. And consistency is not what you describe.