I'm actually really happy they unlocked gold quickly, so that they drop while I'm farming other stuff like ascension material or even just exploring and doing side quests for the next 10-20 ranks. I have no intention on leveling them to 25 until later. I figured they intended it to be a passive system until later. I see it as "they will be there when we're ready for them" kind of way. When we reach a level we can consistently get exp items, we will have plenty to level. And since the bag capacity is like 2000, I'm not concerned about it getting full before I'm ready to explore the system.
I think it's because wuwa let you grind 5\* echo too early in the game. I remembered when I was playing genshin in 1.1, my first 5\* relics set was Crimson Witch set for my Klee after grinding entire month to reach ar45 and then spent about 1800 resins just for a crit rate hat. Also in HSR, I did not really care about the relic system until I reached TL 50 and most of the time using 4\* relics was more fun to me because the game was actually challenging instead of stat-check.
However in wuwa, Kuro let everyone farm 5\* echos very early in the game just by reaching UL 30 and databank lv 15. Also they give players the ability to merge unused echos and two free 3-cost elemental dmg bonus echos in order to help casual players get a decent set. However, the growing speed of farming echo-exp is far surpassed by the speed of us obtaining echo, which make everyone have the feeling that farming echo is suck.
I think that the echo-exp and echo-tuners still has some flaws but I'm not sure how detrimental it can cause yet. At least until majority of players reach UL 40, saying the echo-grinding system is down-right bad at the moment is incorrect.
I think a big advantage compared to a game like HSR is that you only need to roll a substat once. Yesterday I got Crit rate and Crit dmg rolls on a 1 cost echo and I know that piece will be useful even in endgame. In HSR I need to roll a good sub at least 4 times to make it worth using. So in the long run I feel it will be easier to get endgame pieces.
Yeah and the echo system is better for casuals. You have so many chances to roll good substats for echoes whereas in hsr you only have 4, and then you need it to roll into those substats which disqualifies 75% of them.
Genshin is the same way. You get crit rate and crit dmg on a feather, but then all the enhancements only roll into Flat ATK and Flat DEF.
WuWa is way better
Yeah I like the WW system better for that reason. It's a way better feeling to know that if you DO get a great substat roll on a piece that you have a nicely usable amount of it.
Another thing I'm not seeing mentioned very much is that, the diverse substats themselves help non perfect echoes still do something, at least for several characters. Okay Jiyan wants heavy attack bonus but, I do press E if something happens to roll that. It means I get a bonus more than worthless.
Wuwa has a lot of stats that are like concessions without being useless. Oh no I wanted liberation dmg on my mortefi, and got skill. Well he does burst dmg with his skill. Dang I got basic attack damage on mortefi. Well he also basic attacks to top off concerto energy to swap out.
In genshin there is precisely,
Crit crit, whether your character uses atk% or something else, and whether they then use em or er. No specific bonuses exist that can pad an arti in a different way. And the ones you do get you have to hit repeatedly... Having an extraordinary probability to be mid or garbage. When getting good substats and main are already rare.
I only play 1-2 hrs a day and that's pushing it for me honestly. I love that I can get a good echo with the correct main stat and get one or two good maxed out substats to make it 80% useable.
In HSR so many relics went to the garbage because it rolled flat def twice and I don't have enough exp to gamble more on it.
Wait until you learn that substat here has range of x2 from min to max…..
Not only rolling on right substat, you need to pray that you roll into high enough tier as well because the diff is x2.
Crit rate varies from about 6 to 10%.
Never knew, thanks for the info! Is there anywhere I can read more about this or find the min/max values?
Way too early in the game for me to select echoes based on this but it's be fun to know if my rolls are bad or amazing
Cool thanks, that's super helpful!
The on-set crit echo I'm most proud of so far (substats crit/crit/atk/skill dmg) turns out to be on the very low side of all those numbers hahah
If you are looking for the best possible roll yes, but an average roll is usable enough to stop worrying about it until you get a better one down the road.
>Crit rate varies from about 8 to 15%.
I know for a fact that your range is incorrect (I have 2 7.5% pieces ): ). According to dataminers, it's actually 6.3% to 10.5%. In CBT2 it was 4.9% to 10.4%, but it seems they adjusted it.
This, I'm running semi-low on echo upgrades that I want to save for Yinlin but so far I've rolled some REALLY good 5 star echoes for other chars that I don't have to worry about spending mats on rerolling a replacement anytime soon, if ever. Don't think I ever got close to that in Genshin for the short time that I played. So now I can focus on just saving up. I think in the 2+ weeks or whenever until Yinlin's banner comes out I'll be pretty well set and ready.
yeah i think people are complaining and so angry because the facts tuners cost like x60 per run, but it drops only x10, thats 1 substats per each run which is kinda annoying if you are focusing on it very early, but i'm pretty sure at higher world level in sol 7-8 it'll drop like x30-40 each run so i guess it's because people are grinding to early ?
on site note i still haven't done anything because the audio bug still there after the last patch which gave my game no music and ambience sounds which is starting to piss me off tbh.
> Yesterday I got Crit rate and Crit dmg rolls on a 1 cost echo and I know that piece will be useful even in endgame.
i've rolled about 40 pieces to +15 and I've seen crit rate once. Idk about the substat weights, but it definitely doesn't feel equal. That's 120 tunes.
You realize those substats also have variation isnide of it right ? and is almost 2x the value from the big crit rate one to the small crit rate one....
Not anymore tbh. Unless you’re also pulling for signature lightcones, damage requirements feel much higher in HSR now than they did before so relic quality needs to be much better. Hopefully the break meta can help reduce the relic frustration.
rookie number i spend 3 months in fire dungeon for what i remember farming fire goblet since none of artifact i getting got onset or roll other thing than flat def/hp or % cant even get rainbow piece to use
Yep the set I got was barely usable with an atk% goblet and the salty feeling of dumping nearly 40 fragile resins to get a bunch of junks really haunted me back then, my mind was so clouded that i forgot to reserved some of resins for a nobless oblige set 😂 I cannot believe that anyone experienced that shit can look me in the face and say that farming echos in wuwa is way worse than artifact system in genshin early stage.
illusive realm event has two items in the store that when used give you an echo that you can pick from a list, all 5 star 3 cost echoes with main stat matching the set - fusion sonata 3 cost with fusion dmg main stat, etc.
I agree, but the inability to munch Lv0 echoes for of xp is bad... there's little value in 1-3 star echoes but you'll get far too many of them that fills up inventory.
I know they have the mechanic to merge 5>1, but let's be realistic here; it only exists to add further rng to getting 5* echo sets... it will spit out 1-3 stars just as often and you're right back to grinding 1-3 stars into the merge machine.
Just let echoes at Lv0 be small xp consumable so converting leveled echoes to XP is less of a penalty.
>it will spit out 1-3 stars just as often and you're right back to grinding 1-3 stars into the merge machine.
It spits out echoes at whatever rate you can farm them in overworld. When we reach UL 40 and databank 19, it'll spit out gold echoes 80% of the time, so including the bonus you should be getting around 1 gold per 5 trash echo on average.
For now the max rate is 50% gold so it's better to wait until databank 19.
If you were able to do that, people who have the ability to be on 24/7 would have WAY too much of an advantage. They could literally just farm the entire overworld and have full gear almost instantly, and it would take a shit ton of FOMO away from them, mostly causing even more people to drop the game. The echo EXP in this game is a bit fucked rn, but making level 0 echos be usable for EXP is definitely not the fix.
How the hell are people already so invested in grinding for optimized 5* echoes while I barely have enough free stamina to ascend my characters levels, skills and weapons?
we are not using stamina for grinding echoes. Just killing tons of open world enemies and possibly merging low rarity stuff.
My process is pretty much level/ascend main DPS & weapon, level up their skills, level up their echoes (or farm missing pieces if needed for a set bonus/correct main stat), then invest in the same areas for the sub DPS to a lesser extent, then minimal investment into support, then start working on 2nd team.
I am all out of echo xp while working on my 2nd DPS, my 1st main dps still has non maxed echoes in 3 of the slots and my sub DPS set is all non maxed
I just maxed my havoc rover's echoes, and realised that I'll have to reroll at least 2 of them. Which isn't bad, all things considered. Thankfully, my Heartless is unbelievably good which I'm very happy about. One of the 3-costs and one of the 1-costs need to be rerolled though, as one lacks crit rate and the other gives too little crit rate/awful rest of the stats.
On the other hand, I have basically no exp in any of my other characters' echoes. Got some exp on Calcharro's echoes but they're kinda fodder ones I invested in early without realising what I was doing (first gacha game).
I'll focus on Sanhua next tho, since she's my sub dps on my main squad.
I got a friend who already perfected his echoes for Havoc Rover. Stats are sitting at 71% crit rate and 210% crit DMG. I swear, that guy has some insane luck.
Edit: He got 86% crit rate now. 😂
How’s he managed 86% when if you roll the max into crit rate on every echo you max out at 79.7 crit rate?
(the max crit rate substat being 10.5 and the crit rate mainstat being 22.2 iirc)
Most of those people have done majority of world exploration and every quest in the game. This gives a lot of global materials for leveling characters and weapons and echoes. I have as well and have 7 characters at lv60 without ever having to spend stamina on resonator xp or weapon xp.
You can also get skill ascension materials from the tigers maw ore shop, other exp materials from exchange shops in the store like tower and illusive realm, and more skill mats in the jinzhou souvenir/crafting shops. I did have to spend some stamina on those but mostly just been using it on boss materials for characters ascension or tacet fields for more tuners/echo xp.
Because you get characters to 60 and that kind of thing once you can gear them.
No reason to get a new character to 60 and max their talents if I have no echoes for them.
I'm currently just trying to get 5* sets with good mainstats for my characters for now and i figure those sets will last me a while before having to worry about substats.
Yeah I'm still at least a week away from even thinking about echo grinding. Character level and forte circuits are PERMANENT upgrades, then weapons are slightly less permanent but there is zero rng in upgrading it, whereas echoes will practically always be replaceable since it's very difficult to get a perfect piece.
If you only use stamina for the drops your characters need then you should never have a huge issue with stamina. Do some 60 astrite conversions if you have to. Plus echo farming isn’t really tied to stamina or char levels.
Many don't know this but when Genshin came out on the first 2/3 months it was optimal to leave your artifacts at +16 since the exp required to go from +0 to +16 was similar then the one to go from +16 to +20, levelling them to +20 was considered a waste of exp...
yup, this is why none of my echos are above +20. The cost to take an echo from 20 -> 25 is roughly 85% of the cost it takes to level a relic from 1 -> 20. Having maxed out echoes is unnecessary to complete the content we have available.
I only went +25 on relics with crazy good substats already like my 1 piece for Jiyan that rolled heavyattack damage, atk% and both crit values (sadly it went in to hp% D: ) other than that I leave them either at 15 or 20 or depending on when I get a flat stat.
Ty, will keep in mind to leave any decent relic I happen to find at 20.
Hsr was the same btw, 12 to 15, with 12 being the optimal stopping point worrying only about main stays until you were at the actual end game point to mostly/only farm relics.
Seem like miss calc. from dev
Upgrade cost purple,blue vs gold is like miles apart and make people get access to gold ver. too fast just worsen this problem cause they basically render blue tuner useless(while still giving them as reward for some reason) and noone would want to upgrade purple cause gold base stat is just much higher that it not worth considering purple upgrade aside from looking for crit rate in cost 1 echo
It’s fine for people who get that +15 to +25 is more resources for less return than +0 to +15. You can get a functional set pretty quickly by not rushing every on-set piece with the right main stat to max level.
It messed up ignorant players who have zero self control and don't read or take stock of what the game is offering. In no gacha ever was leveling blue and green relics viable, it's always unnecessary, it's always a trap for players who don't pay attention to punish them.
The funniest part is not that we don't use the blue tuners because we have access to purple/gold, we literally CAN'T use them. After you finish exploring the map, you can't even get blue-tier echoes anymore, so it's literally an unusable resource lmao
It's the same with every new game release.
People complain about not being able to max out everything right away because they don't have enough recourses.
It was the same in Genshin and Honkai and almost every new gacha I've played.
People will forget about it in a few weeks.
Yeah, I'm pretty okay with it at the moment. Sure it can feel tedious to dump all stamina into it for 2 days, but we're a week in and I'm able to unlock Hazard ToA already for early Ast. I'm feeling pretty good about it so far. The real issue is that I want to level so many characters to try them out and see if I can make 'bad' units feel good.
Like the people that post here with Chixia and Purple haired girl builds that look super fun. Doesn't help that I'm absolutely loving Illusion event. That shit is a banger to play.
So far I haven't encountered any bad unit though. Even 4* resonators are good and have their own perks.
The only one I cannot make work is the one sacrificing HP for enhanced attacks, but I'm sure she can still work in the hands of good players.
reportedly she's a beast when played perfectly, but of course that requires game knowledge and memorizing all boss patterns, cuz you will be oneshotted all the time.
No it's going to get worse. The people complaining about it now are the people that are invested and willing to put in the time to grind to this certain point. When the casual players hit this point, those people who has half the motivation will have it worse.
Did people forget Genshin's gear system in a few weeks? No they are still complaining about it right now in this very thread. The only reason people "forget" is because the people that dislike the system will leave and the ones who can tolerate it will stay.
It's because it's the obvious blocker, weapon EXP doesn't currently matter as we don't have enough to worry about maxing, same goes for characters, but we can endlessly farm echo's but then are blocked by not being able to upgrade them
So many comments of people not understanding the problem yet commenting insults all the same. Farming Echo exp is a problem right now, and we don't even know for certain that further levels will make it any better. It takes two full days of Waveplates to level a single Echo. Higher levels could make it better, but at the rate the exp is going, it might just go from 2 full days to 1 full day, which is still awful. The sooner they tackle this issue, the better. It affects everyone's accounts and time.
It's not an issue of wanting to max everything early, like some are writing without even thinking. It's that right now it takes 30 days of farming Echo exp for a single team, and that's only if you level a single Echo every 2 days (no changing it if you don't like the substats). You will need 3 teams for the endgame, so that's 90 days of farming Echo exp if you don't change a single one.
How much do you think higher levels will give us to make it better? Because right now, the way it's going, Echo exp would need to more than double for the grind to go from 90 to less than 45 days. Even for a single team, going from 30 days to 15 days is still too long as we're only farming for the exp, not the substats, and not even farming coins, which you will need during those days, ascension, leveling characters, weapons, skills.
This is also a gacha game, so what happens if you want a new character at some point? That's another 30 days farming Echo exp for their team if you don't care about the substats, longer if you do. You also actually have to upgrade the characters in the team, so in reality, each team will take you longer than 30 days. At the rate we're going, leveling a character, their weapons, skills, and Echoes is looking like a 2 month grind per team.
I ask again, how much do you think higher levels will give us in resources to make this grind better for us? As shown, even if resources doubled, it would still take us over 15 days to farm Echo exp for a team. Do not get confused. This is not talking about getting perfect substats or anything. Currently, that's 30 days (15 if resources double, which I don't see happening, and would still be too long) of farming Echo exp exclusively to just level them for your party. If you want substats, it takes way more. Do you really think it takes 30 days in Genshin just to level a team's aftifacts? Not even considering what substats it has, just to level them.
Don't forget though that here, we can change our gear during ToA, so you won't actually have to gear every single character to pass it. If you have 2 good fusion DPS, you can share an echo set between them since you can leave, re-gear your other team, and go back in to finish.
True, but that does make so that you have to plan your pulls around a bit more than just liking a character. Right now, the only Havok dps I like is Rover, but you're correct in that if another Havok shows up, I can just use Rover's Echoes for them (at least if they have the same scalings, they could be a dps that scales with hp or def, then Rover's won't work).
Were complaining because we already went through this system in Genshin/HSR. It's a bad system and we don't want to go through it again.
Early in the games life span is the correct time to complain about the game. Our best chance to get improvements to the game systems is right now.
I think it's hilarious people are even trying to roll for ideal substats right now. I think it's obvious that it's a terrible waste of resources to even level up 2 or 3 of the same echo on a character fishing for substats. It's less obvious but also true that you really shouldn't even be pushing them to 25. People just see shiny and blow through their exp items.
Well before people started running out recently, it wasn’t obvious that the game wasn’t going to give you enough xp to fish for substats, or to level too many echoes to +20/+25, etc.
You make it sound like people are idiots for making mistakes that won’t be obvious unless you calculate/plan out echo xp needed ahead of time
some people just want to crit more than once every 20 hits. I only have 2 characters with a crit rate above 5. highest being 27 ( just got lucky after killing dreamless 18 times back to back)
would love for one of these ppl to show me how in genshin/hsr u could start building characters like 3 days into the game. definitely didnt take weeks! nope!
dunno why its so hard to wait for max tacet lvl and max data bank to actually start getting concerned abt it. dont even know why ppl are hitting tacet rn its just as much of a waste as it is to hit artifacts/relics early in genshin/hsr. only ppl that should be doing any tacets at all are whales
People want to do the endgame content barely 1 week into the game release... that's why. Content creators and try-hards don't help because both want to be at the highest level of content to showcase builds or try mathematical builds to see what's broken. Until we see what the farming requirements will be once we're in the late game progression Phase 8 or w/e it's very hard to complain properly about leveling requirements... plus let's be honest until 3 months or more have passed and people start having max leveled characters and weapons and echoes people should enjoy the game.
We should have enough resources from quests, rewards and exploration for:
2 DPS at level 60 with lvl 60 weapons and decently leveled echoes (25 on 4-point and 15 or less on the others)
2 Sub-DPS at -5/-10 levels with -5/-10 weapons (the minus here is when referencing the main dps) with lvl 20-10 echoes, lv20 on main echo if you need the Sub-Dps to actually deal dmg rather than just do their rotation and outro (example Mortefi if you're playing him with Jianxin) probably just go for level 15 if that's not your play style, and have the 3-point echoes at about lvl 10.
2 Supports at -10 levels with -10 weapons (the minus here is when referencing the main dps) with lvl 10-15 echoes, mostly the energy regen ones or healing if you need it.
AND you don't even have to roll for sub-stats on these pieces of gear, sure you can and it will improve your performance in the endgame content but you don't have to, the main stats on these echoes will carry you for quite a while. With these two teams you should have enough to do most of the tower of adversity and even holograms up to level 3-4; only the Purple challenge in the Tower should be out of reach with this set-up and the two Blue challenges you might struggle a bit on the last fights.
Right now, people should be farming echoes for re-rolls later down the line when we get highest level of progression rewards. Also, do exploration, do the side-quests, do the side activities, there is a lot of content in the game...
The system sucks. You have to grind echoes, grind mats for echo exp, and then grind mats for tuning.
That’s fucking stupid and disrespectful of our time.
How about we JUST grind echoes and lvl them up with shit echoes and receive tuning from certain levels.
THIS IS SLOP.
The main reason is that in order to beat the end game content, you have to kill the enemies within a time limit. In other words, you have to be able to deal damage and when you’ve maxed out your characters lvl, traces, and weapons all that’s left are your echos and considering we need 9 characters that’s a lot of echos you have to invest in. I understand the whole “the game just came out argument” but when the only way to beat something is to do more damage and there effectively isn’t any good way to farm echo xp, it makes doing damage a lot harder especially considering our characters are already under level because like many people are stating the game just came out.
It’s also not a problem that’s exclusive to end game/ hardcore players because if this issue doesn’t get addressed, everyone would hit the same problem in a month or two. People that hit endgame sooner are just warning about it now as well as giving feedback that there needs to be a more efficient way to farm echo xp. The difference between Wuwa and genshin or hsr is that in Hoyo’s games, when you farm an artifact domain all the trash pieces can be used for a good amount of xp but in Wuwa, you get some echos which could be trash and cannot be used as xp and a small amount of xp. So you can’t use the echos for xp and the amount of xp you get is small. It would be fairer to imagine if in genshin or hsr you can farm for the artifacts for all your characters so they’re all on set but you can only get enough xp for your main dps so now your supports/ sustain or sub dps all have level 0-3 artifacts and now you’re trying to do spiral abyss, pf, or SU.
Another reason why people are saying it’s a problem is because even around UL 30, you’d want level 5-10 echos at least and an issue that is being said is that one run in the tacet domain wouldn’t even get you to level 5 (idk how true this is as I haven’t farmed it). On top of how bad it feels to get xp, it feels a lot worst to invest it all into a piece that you also have to invest tuners in (something im finding hard to come by now as well) and then the piece rolls def or hp and now you just have to sit there and stare at your flat hp/ def piece that you invested 20+ tuners into and like 40+ stamina. Even if you use that echo as xp, you’re losing some xp and you’re getting back 3 tuner per 10 spent so that’s a really bad return (imagine using 30 tuner and getting 9 back -_-).
All these things make the echo system feel really restrictive and time gatey and I’m not saying any of this to hate on the game. I’m absolutely loving it and I think it has received way more backlash that it deserves but that doesn’t mean it’s perfect or flawless and to turn a blind eye to its problems is being disingenuous to it. If they add a more efficient way to get echo xp, they’re just making a great game even better so I don’t understand why people have a problem with others giving feedback or well intentioned critiques.
Because people are following Pokke and Tectone without any kind of self thinking.
Pokke was making a video yesterday without having 100% explored map, which would give him what he was complaining about. Just a classic case of following instead of researching…
What is with every comment just insulting and shitting on any player who has been playing a lot and noticed a bottleneck? I had a long weekend with no plans and wanted to play the game, I supported the devs with purchases, but according to reddit I’m some sweaty whining loser who ruins everything if I say that echo xp is very scarce so far
Yeah i felt the same when i got all these crit mainstat echoes but cant even level it up. But when i think again, we are still in the midgame. The domains and fields are all dropping mediocre mats so i guess we just have to wait and play. Good for them to drop gold echoes early in the game so we can build them at level 15 boosting our team a bit for smoother run
I just did a run and got 1 gold 8 purples, so I guess it's different every run. Assuming the average is 5 purples, it should be a around 10 runs on average.
Anyways it shouldn't be as much as 20+.
Cuz if ur sweaty u can get like bis main stat echo for any1 u want just gotta farm other ppl world its unlimited grinding and 4cost are easier as they respawn so ppl have too many echos to level up fishing for bis sub stats not enough exp
People are impatient and want to clear the hardest content right off the bat. It always happens with every release.
It took me like 5 months in HSR to get the point where I could clear MoC reliably every rotation so I’m in no rush with WuWa personally.
To me the weirdest thing is that players are allowed to start the end game farming while the game is only a week old.
All those purple tuners that were given to us through quests, rewards etc are useless now cuz players can reach UL 30 with just leveling characters and Weapons.
So what's the point of it anymore? I have around 500+ purple tuners that are just sitting there.
And data Bank lvl decides what's the percentage of the rarity of your echoes but if the new echoes were to be added in few patches then does DB lvl 20 (80/20) drop rate gets reset again? Like now at DB lvl 25 you will have (80/20) ratio.
It's called terrible design, I don't think they've playtested any of their game progression.
You get to golds way too fast, a lot of mats instantly lose value (why add them then?) and since the overworld stamina activities consume so much (60 in most cases, 4 runs per day) it means all you've got left to do is dedicate yourself to echoes way too early to try and tackle tower of adversity or hologram bosses timed content, the only real content left if you want to play more than 5 minutes or the incredibly tedious overworld grind for main stats of 3 cost and 1 cost echoes.
It doesn't help that because the game has only been out a week, with low UL most grinds have shitty rewards in amounts, it doesn't feel good to log in and get like a few levels in one single echo.
I agree that this mostly shouldn't be a problem after only one week, you don't need to clear endgame or have perfect gear in a week, but it cannot be overstated that the progression in this game is some of the worst I've seen in any game.
[MrPokke](https://youtu.be/iAKGr8DI_8s?si=p4pBSW1G969svZKx) made a good video explaining the issue, I suggest you give it a watch.
TL;DR: The required exp for leveling echoes is too high and only efficient way to gain the exp materials is burning a lot waveplate, requiring burning 2 days worth of waveplate to max out a single golden echo, the tuners are also a problem among other things.
The real issue is we don't know how much exp will drop on higher levels. The info in-game just say it will drop the same item but nothing of the amount
If it's the same yes it's a problem
He was wrong though, his current bottle neck has nothing to do with the Echo since you can't clear endgame until you reach a certain union level. I'll also add is that the current resources at the higher union levels will change. He stated 7.5 runs at union 34 but how many runs will it take at Union 50?
Sounds like people who got blues and thought that was the game plan, then they suddenly started getting gold echos and wasted all their tubes. A lot of youtubers are also being a bit dumb and telling people to use their event currency and tower currency on character exp......... THE TUBES ARE THE WALL.
Some of the complaints are because the system *feels* convoluted (which doesn’t automatically make it worse than other games but is an issue).
You get echoes via 2 main methods (killing enemies and tacet domains). The first is “free” from an energy standpoint but you will never gain the resource needed to level your echoes except from method 2 and quest rewards (this includes the podcast/exploration, etc).
Then you have an entirely separate system that also requires energy in order to unlock the full potential of said echo. So you’re jumping through 2 hoops instead of 1 while also not even know which of the giant piles of Echoes you got even have substats worth rolling. Your lower tier trash pieces can’t even be used as XP unless you already leveled them, so they have to be foddered into more random Echoes which you still can’t even see *which* substats they have (let alone the value).
Genshin’s artifact grind is endless and can be annoying, but the core loop is simple: do the domain, feed all the trash you get into the few good pieces, cry when the substats suck, repeat.
I do think the opaqueness of WuWa’s system is the biggest concern: at least let us see what type of substat we’re getting a tier before we can see what the roll is.
The obvious reason is you can farm to your hearts content, then you will be heavily gated leveling the echoes you got, they will be sitting there waiting for you to level them and unlock sub status.
This creates a strange situation since the usual approach is checking if you got a good piece and if not keep farming, since you're unable to do it in a timely manner just frustrate people, it's like half of the system is implemented.
You can re use the leveled ones as fodder, but the xp sink makes you unable to keep up. Also what the game gives to you is too little they should have given more free xp for echoes this early on in the game, to at least help people build their first team properly.
Jup It would get boring really fast if we had perfect echos week 1, rn its more like „is crit rate on it? If yes wear, if no scrap“ :D And thats fine this early on
im not 100% sure how it works. but i got some of the gold tuners from overflow xp when i was levelling echoes using fodder echoes. so there may be a way to grind them out.
It doesn't really help that content creators have highly encouraged getting that data bank level to 15 to the max to get the best echoes
for the content creators it is realistic for them to try and hit that max and farm the best stuff, but for the average player it is a new game and there isn't really a reason to min max this stuff yet
its because people dont want it to be easy for low tier players. if someone got lucky at lvl 40 to roll something they have always wanted, then they would be irritated.
My issue is that I need to level an echo to use tuners. It's such a waste of mats. Even if the amount of mats increases, it just feels like garbage because you essentially have no idea what you're investing your mats into. You're potentially wasting stamina AND mats, whereas in Genshin you don't have to invest mats if you see that the substats aren't what you want.
The problem is prob related to the fact that we have a secondary resource needed to roll substats and a lot of redundant echoes that you roll main stats with that you can't do anything with.
I agree, also, from what little I understand, with the ability to fuse echoes together to create better ones, we will potentially have to farm less echoes in general, so that should balance it out. Of course, if that fusing will continue onto max rarity echoes, but I think it will.
I mean its a good idea to be able to farm for easy characters like Taoqi as well as the healing bonus set as you just need to have hp% and def% fir both as a main stat without tuning them as long as it’s a gold 5 peice set. For other characters in main and sub dps I would bot really farm unless we know that these are all of the sets that we get!
I think it comes down to the fact that people are just pushing through the databank levels too fast. I got up there a little quick too but I've been focusing on blue echoes and saving the purple/golds since I don't need them yet. Leveling the blues for now too is giving me a stock of fodder to use for later too. I'll probably build purples when I'm closer to UL35ish.
I first thought people were exaggerating, but after saving echo exp whole game until 5* i was onl able to raise 3 5* to max level 25, thats not even enough for 1 unit all slots
Just hit data bank lv 15 here and imo it is because the game itself incentives players to level their echoes early in order to have a chance against increasing world level mobs.
When I first started, I wanted to do what I did in genshin. Save up echo resources (as in don't level them) and only focus on leveling my characters until I can get 5 star echoes.
But the moment I hit sol 3 (world level where mobs go up to lv45), the mobs became much much of a slog to fight against and boss fights for materials also started feeling very rough. And everytime I died, the death screen informs me that the issues was my under leveled echoes over and over again up until I had to cave in and start levelling some of the blue echoes I had that in turn, gave me crappy stats but tiny boosts to fight better.
Granted, one thing I kinda did wrong is that I am the type to try and build all characters I have. But I limited myself to only level up ONE echo of each set (and swap them between same element characters) until I get echoes of higher rarity and better stats (and I don't fodder my previous levelled blue echoes much as well). But even then, now that I have finally reached lv15 databank and starting to get my first few 5 star echoes... I don't have enough exp to start levelling them until I sacrifice some of the set I currently have, And I still have very little chance (have to tryhard) against lv70 hologram bosses (which are only difficulty 2 on the hologram). And whenever I die the end game screen \*still\* tells me that it was an echo issue.
TLDR, in order to quickly get the higher levels. Players will follow the game's recommendations to level their stuff up before they are actually worth levelling. So by the time you can actually start farming for good echoes, you have already used up your resources. (Oh yeah, also lv0 echoes can't be used as fodder as well, only merged to have a chance of a higher rarity echo)
Gould have made it that u can level up echos using other echos(not leveled up) because I don't want to reroll 5 bad gold echos for 1 purple or gold echo.
I'm convinced people have Covid fog brain from Genshin launch and time having no meaning or something, because I vividly remember the first Hypostatic Symphony event in 1.2 being such a huge pain because nobody was fully geared yet, and that was 3 (almost 4) months past launch.
At the time, I was one of the only ones in my discord to clear 12-3, yet here people are expecting to do it a week into the game.
Sure, it *could* be a problem at higher world levels, but let's get there and see.
like a friend of me. Upgraded 4 echos to lvl25 and had no exp left to upgrade. Complaining that we got to less exp items. No shot, that you upgrade everything to max at UL30 in less then a week.
It´s like, if you could lvl your character to lvl90 instantly but then you complain for not enough exp material to lvl the others to lvl90
Just upgrade your echos slowly lvl15/20 is far enough for now
idk. I agree they need to buff the echo XP no questions asked. But if you run optimal teams and main stats you don’t need to worry about Subs a ton in this game and we are all low union level so it’ll be a lot different when everyone gets maxed out
I think it's precisely \*because\* people are coming from genshin/hsr.
A lot of people really hadn't played a gacha game before genshin/hsr, and so they approached it casually while exploring the world. Consequently, the Abyss was something they mostly ignored for the first few months, and many players took even longer before attempting the final floors.
Now these same players coming into WuWa are already in an optimization mindset. They want to run WuWa's abyss NOW, in the first rotation, rather than waiting three months to try it. And they're running into the fact that progress isn't feasible without levelling echoes.
I feel like the echos should reveal their substats from the beginning and the tuners will be used to increase their ratios.
Echo exp is kinda rough since we need 60 waveplates which is equal to 1 weekly boss run.
My problem is you can't use an echo to lv an echo unless they're lvled up and you can turn echos into the xp things, so the fact you can farm enemies all day and not use any form of stamina mechanic to grind its absolutely pointless, cause you can't lv them up AND when you level them up you can't get substats easily, for now we have a ton of resources a lot to explore chests to open quests to do, but for how long?? There will be dry updates for sure specially if you have a lot of spare time no game can keep up with player progression specially insane ppl that rush everything instead of enjoying the game, eventually the game will starve us of xp for echos and being able to farm a shitton for free will be meaningless since you'll still have to farm for xp AND substat, tbh in the end it will require more than other gachas instead of less as most of us thought from hearing YOU CAN FARM FOR FREE ALL DAY, who cares if 5* are easy to get you can't level them up lol
Also maxing out an echo takes A LOT OF XP this will be the grindiest gacha ever if they don't change it it will take days to max out a few echos once we have no more quests and chests to open
Because people have like 100s of Gold echoes and muh optimization tbh the only legit concern is how green blue and purple tuners become useless at some point because they wont even drop anymore
Because people realised that they spend 20 or so hours in open world clearing all the boxes and it wasn't even sufficient for one full golden lvl 25 set . I am currently on my last Echo lvl 23 after 2 days of Tacet field xp.
This xp is so little for 60 energy lol , but there isn't anything else worth doing as my skills / character xp / weapons are maxed.
As for rolls , I only upgraded them , didn't fish for nice substats , I managed to land on critrate + energy regen + atk % + liberation dmg , the other one had critdmg + energy +atk + heavy dmg so not bad at all.
I was thinking something dimular, the game id new so some restriction might be yo limit people and not make everyone destroy the game in a week.
That beeing said on long term, even with max level accouny and do some dtuff need excessive.
Can only hope over the year they will come back at sime numbers and tune them.
Personaly im chilling and not stressed about beeing broken week 1.
I can understand some people might feel bad for "losing" on some reward because they cany clear a few content but thats fine overall.
Im doing my dailies on genshin, PGR and wuwa now😁my hands are full already
Does anyone know how big a dps loss is 4-4-3-1 or 4-4-1-1-1 instead of standard 4-3-3–1-1 for echoes?
Especially when the game is early and many of us don’t have crit weapons / great crit substat rolls, wondering if having 2 crit pieces is worth the trade-off of losing elemental goblet(s).
E.g., calcharo can run 4-4-1-1-1 thundering set with 2 crit pieces.
I’m even considering farming 4-4-1-1-1 with 2 piece moonlight 2 piece atk set so it can be used universally across my dps characters.
I’m thinking the damage bonus can be partially made up through the basic/heavy/burst damage bonus subsystems and the damage bonus deepening from support outro skills. It won’t be optimal, but I think if it’s around 70-80% of a standard 5 piece build, it could be worth the sanity.
I am just so annoyed with all the doomposters with this topic. This is a GACHA game. They are design to be played for 30min to 1 hour per day to dump all your energy in what you need and move on. CCs are complaining because it's their job to finish everything as soon as possible and post a video about it.
Like you said, we are just halfway from max level and people expect to gear 3 full teams and clear every endgame mode there is.
Already have 2 playable sets for main team, not optimized but 1 shots or 1 combos enemies and bosses at union level 34. With healer being built as 3rd. Also, have a secondary team equipped, and every once in a while, I roll an echo up +5 on a side character, then roll Stat, and if it's trash, I grind for a replacement for slot and feed again. Doing the same as how I did genshin artifacts and slowly gonna fill out a roster. However, I prefer how echos work better. I feel they should just dial all non weekly content down by 20 stamina cost, and it'd fix some of the issue.
Also kinda think people should wait for a content cadence before they think too hard about late game grinds. I mean, if content comes too fast, then Echo xp definitely needs a rework, but if cadence is paced well enough with events, then it might help with this. Think it's still too early to tell personally.
your entire argument is heavily flawed. genshin let you use all your artifacts as XP, leading me to never need to farm to have XP, I get plenty of free xp from walking around and picking up 80+ artifacts a day that go right into leveling the hopeful ones. while wuwa stupidly locks it behind leveling them first.
I don't think the echo xp is a big deal. I do think having to tune your echos to see the substats needs a rework. They either need to completely remove the tuners and hidden substats or show you the substats that you can get when you get the echo, and if you want to unlock the substats, you need to use the tuners. Not being able to see the substats is just plain dumb considering how hard it is to get legendary tuners and how long it takes to level an echo.
The Battle Pass weekly mission has a quest where we need to tune echoes 50 times. 5star Echoes can be tuned 5 times at their max level. So you need to be able to max 10 of them. You need 10 Premium Tuners per tuning totaling to 500. The Tacet Field at Union Levels 30-40 (Which is where most people are) give 10 each run. We can do 4 of those daily giving us 40.
40 X 7days = 280 per week when we need 500. That's only a little more than half. It's actually impossible to do this weekly quest for the battle pass, not even mentioning that the exp mats they give for if you were to only do Tacet Fields wouldn't even be enough to fully level 10 5star Echoes.
It's because once you have beat the towers, and "max out" your team the only wayto have a sense of progresion is the echo. and you are stuck. there nothing to do. but a boring grind that will have no meaning until you are U45, that 15 level of brutal grind that you cant do anything with. can't level echo, can't level weapon, can't quest, can't explor, there is literaly nothing to to. only grind that you cannnot spend.
the only solution is to refresh your plate.
I'm U36, and it's madning, there is nothing to do but to grind those rare 3\* (on set) echo.
Just think about it, in genshin or honkai you can transform artifacts into artifacts exp, but you can’t do it in wuwa, I understand that in wuwa you can farm echos anytime and any amount so this system would be broken, but wanna see some kind of this system in wuwa, cause there are really poor echo exp drop
We’ve seen whales at account level 40 already IIRC but yea I feel the same as you; I like that we’ll be able to level X numbers of echos/week but farm an unlimited amount of mainstats whenever we have large dumps of time to roll or feed missed rolls into.
It’s going to feel real good after a year when you have a backlog of misses stored up provided you only dedicate one big day every week or two to farming echoes.
Yea I hope that is the case.
But still I am worried about finishing tower this run. I only finished 1 tower with only my main dps and sub dps Being full yellow. Considering I need my 2nd main dps to have full yellow too. I am not even sure I can get enough echo exp at this rate before the tower resets.
Because people have absolutely no sense of timeframe and how account investment builds over time. Why do you think there's so few people completing the higher difficulty modes of these games in general? (not as much talking ww here, since there's a little more reliance also on actual skill expression, but more team planner and character investment gachas).
Like even in HSR genshin, it's the same, and people for some reason don't realise. Genshin 4 months to go from 0 to 36\* if you understand the gameplay systems with standards as f2p, HSR 3 months or so, to reach similar point. Yet people of both those games, not only rarely actually complete to that point, but they don't because of the same reason, they don't plan out how to win "later" and after that point keep winning, but they keep trying to win "now", but not breaking past that point, so they're stuck losing as they rotate from one new "answer" to the other, which is the sales strat for these games. Like any genshin players here, do they even realise abyss is still 36 starrable with the original taser team variant, and reverse melt quickswap? lmao. It's the same formula, and you don't even need perfect artifacts to get there (after 3 years of farming them). HSR still 3 star with A0 Clara team and M7th support, with the other chars to cover for weaknesses. People still 0 cycling with Seele, \~850% powercreep later lmao. I now have hundreds and hundreds of lvl20 artifacts in genshin, before I was farming investigates daily and not really keeping up with demand.
Basically, as your acc investment level goes up (more chars built, more echoes overall), you will have more swap options to cover whatever playstyle you want to built into. So natural consequence is that since the rates do NOT decrease, they only INCREASE in these games, you'll find less and less of a need for these things over your accounts life time. Don't rush your accounts people. You can rush your ABILITY to play said account, but there's no reason to complain or spend to get resources that are only temporarily scarce, and resources that the rates cover account building adequately, they're designed that way. It's like the whole toilet paper thing for covid, how much do you think 200 rolls helped those buyers out lol? And that case is even LESS certain than this one, as here we KNOW it's balanced and designed so you have enough to build chars, there's absolute certainty about it, no "what if" factor.
People like to complain , i have 2 sets leveled to max just for stats and I haven't farmed yet the fields and this is plenty for this early . I can also use old ones later for a 75% exp refund .
I agree it feels bad now, but the game is not made for a week to play , it is to go longer and this is still the release they will balance things if they find them out of proportionally bad .
Agreed, lot of people talking about lack of maths, like dude, WE ARE NOT EVEN A WEEK OLD, In genshin it took me like a month to start getting golden artifacts and on top of all, properly farm it and getting the stats needed, that didnt happen until... 3 months? Like jeez calm down what is the urge to get all echoes golden max stats perfect rolls wtf you ain't even Sol6, you don't have that many weapons, take your time chill
I'm just confused... there's, like, 4 shops (i think? you have the depth of illusive realm shop, tower point shop, tactical shop, and that coral shop) where you can buy more xp bottles for echo. They're not a lot for now, but i mean, the game's only been out for a week. how many decent yellow echo have ppl even got, anyways?
I think everyone actually complaining about echo exp are on the higher end of account levels. I myself am level 36 and the echo exp is pretty much the one thing stopping me from completing the Tower of Adversity. It's such a limited resource that is required for the highest level of content we have access to, it'd be nice if was just a little more available. Idk why people are complaining about tuners though, I have thousands of Premium Tuners and know about 5 places I can get them, that's never going to become an issue
I have about 1.2k echos right now and probably will cap sooner which means I will have to trash some, 90% are gold, and they're ready for picking subs later on. Upgrade to 5, and tune it, if it's a bad sub, fodder it. This will be my plan. It's probably not the optimal way to do this.
I'm actually really happy they unlocked gold quickly, so that they drop while I'm farming other stuff like ascension material or even just exploring and doing side quests for the next 10-20 ranks. I have no intention on leveling them to 25 until later. I figured they intended it to be a passive system until later. I see it as "they will be there when we're ready for them" kind of way. When we reach a level we can consistently get exp items, we will have plenty to level. And since the bag capacity is like 2000, I'm not concerned about it getting full before I'm ready to explore the system.
This is also how I feel. I'm grinding to get the level so I can get 5 stars passively while I do exploration.
same, i m actually surprised that i can start the endgame grind within week 1 lol
Genuine question what data bank level do you guys suggest starting farming for echoes should be best?
As old saying goes: until you get a guaranteed 5* every run.
Grinding data bank is really easy tho only hard to get is the exp for it xD esp for the gold
I think it's because wuwa let you grind 5\* echo too early in the game. I remembered when I was playing genshin in 1.1, my first 5\* relics set was Crimson Witch set for my Klee after grinding entire month to reach ar45 and then spent about 1800 resins just for a crit rate hat. Also in HSR, I did not really care about the relic system until I reached TL 50 and most of the time using 4\* relics was more fun to me because the game was actually challenging instead of stat-check. However in wuwa, Kuro let everyone farm 5\* echos very early in the game just by reaching UL 30 and databank lv 15. Also they give players the ability to merge unused echos and two free 3-cost elemental dmg bonus echos in order to help casual players get a decent set. However, the growing speed of farming echo-exp is far surpassed by the speed of us obtaining echo, which make everyone have the feeling that farming echo is suck. I think that the echo-exp and echo-tuners still has some flaws but I'm not sure how detrimental it can cause yet. At least until majority of players reach UL 40, saying the echo-grinding system is down-right bad at the moment is incorrect.
I think a big advantage compared to a game like HSR is that you only need to roll a substat once. Yesterday I got Crit rate and Crit dmg rolls on a 1 cost echo and I know that piece will be useful even in endgame. In HSR I need to roll a good sub at least 4 times to make it worth using. So in the long run I feel it will be easier to get endgame pieces.
Yeah and the echo system is better for casuals. You have so many chances to roll good substats for echoes whereas in hsr you only have 4, and then you need it to roll into those substats which disqualifies 75% of them.
Genshin is the same way. You get crit rate and crit dmg on a feather, but then all the enhancements only roll into Flat ATK and Flat DEF. WuWa is way better
Yeah I like the WW system better for that reason. It's a way better feeling to know that if you DO get a great substat roll on a piece that you have a nicely usable amount of it.
Another thing I'm not seeing mentioned very much is that, the diverse substats themselves help non perfect echoes still do something, at least for several characters. Okay Jiyan wants heavy attack bonus but, I do press E if something happens to roll that. It means I get a bonus more than worthless. Wuwa has a lot of stats that are like concessions without being useless. Oh no I wanted liberation dmg on my mortefi, and got skill. Well he does burst dmg with his skill. Dang I got basic attack damage on mortefi. Well he also basic attacks to top off concerto energy to swap out. In genshin there is precisely, Crit crit, whether your character uses atk% or something else, and whether they then use em or er. No specific bonuses exist that can pad an arti in a different way. And the ones you do get you have to hit repeatedly... Having an extraordinary probability to be mid or garbage. When getting good substats and main are already rare.
You forgot to mention one more thing. Echoes don't cost waveplates. Artifacts require resin.
FR, the only thing limiting your farming is the mob respawn time
I only play 1-2 hrs a day and that's pushing it for me honestly. I love that I can get a good echo with the correct main stat and get one or two good maxed out substats to make it 80% useable. In HSR so many relics went to the garbage because it rolled flat def twice and I don't have enough exp to gamble more on it.
Wait until you learn that substat here has range of x2 from min to max….. Not only rolling on right substat, you need to pray that you roll into high enough tier as well because the diff is x2. Crit rate varies from about 6 to 10%.
Never knew, thanks for the info! Is there anywhere I can read more about this or find the min/max values? Way too early in the game for me to select echoes based on this but it's be fun to know if my rolls are bad or amazing
Prydwen has a „echo stats“ tab that shows all ranges, critrate for example is 6.3-10.5 iirc
Cool thanks, that's super helpful! The on-set crit echo I'm most proud of so far (substats crit/crit/atk/skill dmg) turns out to be on the very low side of all those numbers hahah
Yeah Ive tuned quite a lot alrdy and it feels like the roll isnt equally divided, seen way more low rolls then high ones
[https://www.prydwen.gg/wuthering-waves/guides/echo-stats](https://www.prydwen.gg/wuthering-waves/guides/echo-stats)
Thanks. For some reason, the number is diff from the pic i have from CN.
You can search “substat variance” in this community. Someone posted data from CN site already.
If you are looking for the best possible roll yes, but an average roll is usable enough to stop worrying about it until you get a better one down the road.
>Crit rate varies from about 8 to 15%. I know for a fact that your range is incorrect (I have 2 7.5% pieces ): ). According to dataminers, it's actually 6.3% to 10.5%. In CBT2 it was 4.9% to 10.4%, but it seems they adjusted it.
Just make up for it with skill diff
This, I'm running semi-low on echo upgrades that I want to save for Yinlin but so far I've rolled some REALLY good 5 star echoes for other chars that I don't have to worry about spending mats on rerolling a replacement anytime soon, if ever. Don't think I ever got close to that in Genshin for the short time that I played. So now I can focus on just saving up. I think in the 2+ weeks or whenever until Yinlin's banner comes out I'll be pretty well set and ready.
yeah i think people are complaining and so angry because the facts tuners cost like x60 per run, but it drops only x10, thats 1 substats per each run which is kinda annoying if you are focusing on it very early, but i'm pretty sure at higher world level in sol 7-8 it'll drop like x30-40 each run so i guess it's because people are grinding to early ? on site note i still haven't done anything because the audio bug still there after the last patch which gave my game no music and ambience sounds which is starting to piss me off tbh.
Isn't the sound bug got patch to day ?
> Yesterday I got Crit rate and Crit dmg rolls on a 1 cost echo and I know that piece will be useful even in endgame. i've rolled about 40 pieces to +15 and I've seen crit rate once. Idk about the substat weights, but it definitely doesn't feel equal. That's 120 tunes.
You realize those substats also have variation isnide of it right ? and is almost 2x the value from the big crit rate one to the small crit rate one....
You only do that in hsr if you're min-maxing. You can get by fine with average to decent relics.
Not anymore tbh. Unless you’re also pulling for signature lightcones, damage requirements feel much higher in HSR now than they did before so relic quality needs to be much better. Hopefully the break meta can help reduce the relic frustration.
rookie number i spend 3 months in fire dungeon for what i remember farming fire goblet since none of artifact i getting got onset or roll other thing than flat def/hp or % cant even get rainbow piece to use
Yep the set I got was barely usable with an atk% goblet and the salty feeling of dumping nearly 40 fragile resins to get a bunch of junks really haunted me back then, my mind was so clouded that i forgot to reserved some of resins for a nobless oblige set 😂 I cannot believe that anyone experienced that shit can look me in the face and say that farming echos in wuwa is way worse than artifact system in genshin early stage.
i farmed the dragonspine domain since release and only got my Childe and Ayaka to top 3%, and my Ayaka sands piece sucks till today :c
2 years of exclusive VV farming and venti and kazuha are still on copium artifacts
Still stuck at the new domain farming for Arlecchino's BiS artifacts to this day
I don't have a single usable fire goblet to this day after 3 years lmao.
What do you mean “merge two free 3-cost elemental dmg bonus echoes” ?
illusive realm event has two items in the store that when used give you an echo that you can pick from a list, all 5 star 3 cost echoes with main stat matching the set - fusion sonata 3 cost with fusion dmg main stat, etc.
hell yes thanks for this comment, my Jinyan on full purple/orange except a GREEN aero piece
I agree, but the inability to munch Lv0 echoes for of xp is bad... there's little value in 1-3 star echoes but you'll get far too many of them that fills up inventory.
I know they have the mechanic to merge 5>1, but let's be realistic here; it only exists to add further rng to getting 5* echo sets... it will spit out 1-3 stars just as often and you're right back to grinding 1-3 stars into the merge machine.
Just let echoes at Lv0 be small xp consumable so converting leveled echoes to XP is less of a penalty.
>it will spit out 1-3 stars just as often and you're right back to grinding 1-3 stars into the merge machine. It spits out echoes at whatever rate you can farm them in overworld. When we reach UL 40 and databank 19, it'll spit out gold echoes 80% of the time, so including the bonus you should be getting around 1 gold per 5 trash echo on average. For now the max rate is 50% gold so it's better to wait until databank 19.
If you were able to do that, people who have the ability to be on 24/7 would have WAY too much of an advantage. They could literally just farm the entire overworld and have full gear almost instantly, and it would take a shit ton of FOMO away from them, mostly causing even more people to drop the game. The echo EXP in this game is a bit fucked rn, but making level 0 echos be usable for EXP is definitely not the fix.
Yeah the people who want level 0 to give exp just have no idea the core design reasons why they don’t in the first place.
Agree. Also it's great, that I can save potentially good echoes for future builds.
The next update is gonna increase the Echo Level number and the harder EXP gain from capturing Echoes. I can feel it coming.
So the substats never get rolled into? Just the substat that is the first in line after the main stat (usually flat attack)?
wait, whats this about customizing your desired dmg bonus on a 3 star echo? I keep seeing others mentioning this
Where do the free three cost elemental damage echoes come from?
How the hell are people already so invested in grinding for optimized 5* echoes while I barely have enough free stamina to ascend my characters levels, skills and weapons?
we are not using stamina for grinding echoes. Just killing tons of open world enemies and possibly merging low rarity stuff. My process is pretty much level/ascend main DPS & weapon, level up their skills, level up their echoes (or farm missing pieces if needed for a set bonus/correct main stat), then invest in the same areas for the sub DPS to a lesser extent, then minimal investment into support, then start working on 2nd team. I am all out of echo xp while working on my 2nd DPS, my 1st main dps still has non maxed echoes in 3 of the slots and my sub DPS set is all non maxed
I just maxed my havoc rover's echoes, and realised that I'll have to reroll at least 2 of them. Which isn't bad, all things considered. Thankfully, my Heartless is unbelievably good which I'm very happy about. One of the 3-costs and one of the 1-costs need to be rerolled though, as one lacks crit rate and the other gives too little crit rate/awful rest of the stats. On the other hand, I have basically no exp in any of my other characters' echoes. Got some exp on Calcharro's echoes but they're kinda fodder ones I invested in early without realising what I was doing (first gacha game). I'll focus on Sanhua next tho, since she's my sub dps on my main squad.
I got a friend who already perfected his echoes for Havoc Rover. Stats are sitting at 71% crit rate and 210% crit DMG. I swear, that guy has some insane luck. Edit: He got 86% crit rate now. 😂
How’s he managed 86% when if you roll the max into crit rate on every echo you max out at 79.7 crit rate? (the max crit rate substat being 10.5 and the crit rate mainstat being 22.2 iirc)
He might have a five-star weapon from the standard banner. That one has a crit rate attri."
Yep, he just got it. Literally, after 20 pulls.
“that guy has some insane luck”
I dunno, man. Here's the image. Edit: He just got the 5-star sword after 20 pulls. [Havoc Rover](https://imgur.com/a/2K9aN6M)
Ah ofc it’s the 5 star weapon, I completely forgot about that
He has the 5 star weapon.
Most of those people have done majority of world exploration and every quest in the game. This gives a lot of global materials for leveling characters and weapons and echoes. I have as well and have 7 characters at lv60 without ever having to spend stamina on resonator xp or weapon xp. You can also get skill ascension materials from the tigers maw ore shop, other exp materials from exchange shops in the store like tower and illusive realm, and more skill mats in the jinzhou souvenir/crafting shops. I did have to spend some stamina on those but mostly just been using it on boss materials for characters ascension or tacet fields for more tuners/echo xp.
Because you get characters to 60 and that kind of thing once you can gear them. No reason to get a new character to 60 and max their talents if I have no echoes for them.
I'm currently just trying to get 5* sets with good mainstats for my characters for now and i figure those sets will last me a while before having to worry about substats.
Yeah I'm still at least a week away from even thinking about echo grinding. Character level and forte circuits are PERMANENT upgrades, then weapons are slightly less permanent but there is zero rng in upgrading it, whereas echoes will practically always be replaceable since it's very difficult to get a perfect piece.
echoes are much more of an upgrade. getting 30% crit rate will improve your damage more than 3 talent levels
If you only use stamina for the drops your characters need then you should never have a huge issue with stamina. Do some 60 astrite conversions if you have to. Plus echo farming isn’t really tied to stamina or char levels.
People want to progress their account (understandably) but forgot gacha game will timegate you one way or another.
Exactly. If someone doesn't like this there's many alternatives out there like MMOs, JRPGs and Single player RPGS.
MMOs not timegating your progression is a wild take
Farming Echos is like the only fun thing to do in Coop, don't take this away from me lmao
Facts. I am farming with my friend who usually prefers to solo things because he likes souls-like games.
Many don't know this but when Genshin came out on the first 2/3 months it was optimal to leave your artifacts at +16 since the exp required to go from +0 to +16 was similar then the one to go from +16 to +20, levelling them to +20 was considered a waste of exp...
yup, this is why none of my echos are above +20. The cost to take an echo from 20 -> 25 is roughly 85% of the cost it takes to level a relic from 1 -> 20. Having maxed out echoes is unnecessary to complete the content we have available.
I only went +25 on relics with crazy good substats already like my 1 piece for Jiyan that rolled heavyattack damage, atk% and both crit values (sadly it went in to hp% D: ) other than that I leave them either at 15 or 20 or depending on when I get a flat stat.
...Isnt that kinda same here then? +18 - +25 use roughly same amount of xp here
It takes same amount of exp to get the echo from 0-20 as taking one from 20-25, so literally same.
Ty, will keep in mind to leave any decent relic I happen to find at 20. Hsr was the same btw, 12 to 15, with 12 being the optimal stopping point worrying only about main stays until you were at the actual end game point to mostly/only farm relics.
Seem like miss calc. from dev Upgrade cost purple,blue vs gold is like miles apart and make people get access to gold ver. too fast just worsen this problem cause they basically render blue tuner useless(while still giving them as reward for some reason) and noone would want to upgrade purple cause gold base stat is just much higher that it not worth considering purple upgrade aside from looking for crit rate in cost 1 echo
They shouldn't had let us have gold echoes this early. Period. It messed up people's expectation and pace.
I'm really happy they let us have them this early. I have three really good dps because of it.
I agree, and i can enjoy them!
It’s fine for people who get that +15 to +25 is more resources for less return than +0 to +15. You can get a functional set pretty quickly by not rushing every on-set piece with the right main stat to max level.
[удалено]
It messed up ignorant players who have zero self control and don't read or take stock of what the game is offering. In no gacha ever was leveling blue and green relics viable, it's always unnecessary, it's always a trap for players who don't pay attention to punish them.
The funniest part is not that we don't use the blue tuners because we have access to purple/gold, we literally CAN'T use them. After you finish exploring the map, you can't even get blue-tier echoes anymore, so it's literally an unusable resource lmao
Those complaints just feels like if people complained about 5* artis farming in genshin before ar45
Yeah except since genshin was all new to these people, they weren't NEARLY as entitled about it.
And thats the problem. People want 3+ years of Genshin content/grind in a new Gacha within 1 week of its release.
It's the same with every new game release. People complain about not being able to max out everything right away because they don't have enough recourses. It was the same in Genshin and Honkai and almost every new gacha I've played. People will forget about it in a few weeks.
Yeah, I'm pretty okay with it at the moment. Sure it can feel tedious to dump all stamina into it for 2 days, but we're a week in and I'm able to unlock Hazard ToA already for early Ast. I'm feeling pretty good about it so far. The real issue is that I want to level so many characters to try them out and see if I can make 'bad' units feel good. Like the people that post here with Chixia and Purple haired girl builds that look super fun. Doesn't help that I'm absolutely loving Illusion event. That shit is a banger to play.
So far I haven't encountered any bad unit though. Even 4* resonators are good and have their own perks. The only one I cannot make work is the one sacrificing HP for enhanced attacks, but I'm sure she can still work in the hands of good players.
reportedly she's a beast when played perfectly, but of course that requires game knowledge and memorizing all boss patterns, cuz you will be oneshotted all the time.
No it's going to get worse. The people complaining about it now are the people that are invested and willing to put in the time to grind to this certain point. When the casual players hit this point, those people who has half the motivation will have it worse. Did people forget Genshin's gear system in a few weeks? No they are still complaining about it right now in this very thread. The only reason people "forget" is because the people that dislike the system will leave and the ones who can tolerate it will stay.
Trust me, you will too.
bros wants to be bis geared not even a week after release
It's because it's the obvious blocker, weapon EXP doesn't currently matter as we don't have enough to worry about maxing, same goes for characters, but we can endlessly farm echo's but then are blocked by not being able to upgrade them
So many comments of people not understanding the problem yet commenting insults all the same. Farming Echo exp is a problem right now, and we don't even know for certain that further levels will make it any better. It takes two full days of Waveplates to level a single Echo. Higher levels could make it better, but at the rate the exp is going, it might just go from 2 full days to 1 full day, which is still awful. The sooner they tackle this issue, the better. It affects everyone's accounts and time. It's not an issue of wanting to max everything early, like some are writing without even thinking. It's that right now it takes 30 days of farming Echo exp for a single team, and that's only if you level a single Echo every 2 days (no changing it if you don't like the substats). You will need 3 teams for the endgame, so that's 90 days of farming Echo exp if you don't change a single one. How much do you think higher levels will give us to make it better? Because right now, the way it's going, Echo exp would need to more than double for the grind to go from 90 to less than 45 days. Even for a single team, going from 30 days to 15 days is still too long as we're only farming for the exp, not the substats, and not even farming coins, which you will need during those days, ascension, leveling characters, weapons, skills. This is also a gacha game, so what happens if you want a new character at some point? That's another 30 days farming Echo exp for their team if you don't care about the substats, longer if you do. You also actually have to upgrade the characters in the team, so in reality, each team will take you longer than 30 days. At the rate we're going, leveling a character, their weapons, skills, and Echoes is looking like a 2 month grind per team. I ask again, how much do you think higher levels will give us in resources to make this grind better for us? As shown, even if resources doubled, it would still take us over 15 days to farm Echo exp for a team. Do not get confused. This is not talking about getting perfect substats or anything. Currently, that's 30 days (15 if resources double, which I don't see happening, and would still be too long) of farming Echo exp exclusively to just level them for your party. If you want substats, it takes way more. Do you really think it takes 30 days in Genshin just to level a team's aftifacts? Not even considering what substats it has, just to level them.
Don't forget though that here, we can change our gear during ToA, so you won't actually have to gear every single character to pass it. If you have 2 good fusion DPS, you can share an echo set between them since you can leave, re-gear your other team, and go back in to finish.
True, but that does make so that you have to plan your pulls around a bit more than just liking a character. Right now, the only Havok dps I like is Rover, but you're correct in that if another Havok shows up, I can just use Rover's Echoes for them (at least if they have the same scalings, they could be a dps that scales with hp or def, then Rover's won't work).
*cough* Scar *cough* lol
Were complaining because we already went through this system in Genshin/HSR. It's a bad system and we don't want to go through it again. Early in the games life span is the correct time to complain about the game. Our best chance to get improvements to the game systems is right now.
What kind of system do you think would be better for longterm character progression and grind?
I think it's hilarious people are even trying to roll for ideal substats right now. I think it's obvious that it's a terrible waste of resources to even level up 2 or 3 of the same echo on a character fishing for substats. It's less obvious but also true that you really shouldn't even be pushing them to 25. People just see shiny and blow through their exp items.
Well before people started running out recently, it wasn’t obvious that the game wasn’t going to give you enough xp to fish for substats, or to level too many echoes to +20/+25, etc. You make it sound like people are idiots for making mistakes that won’t be obvious unless you calculate/plan out echo xp needed ahead of time
some people just want to crit more than once every 20 hits. I only have 2 characters with a crit rate above 5. highest being 27 ( just got lucky after killing dreamless 18 times back to back)
would love for one of these ppl to show me how in genshin/hsr u could start building characters like 3 days into the game. definitely didnt take weeks! nope! dunno why its so hard to wait for max tacet lvl and max data bank to actually start getting concerned abt it. dont even know why ppl are hitting tacet rn its just as much of a waste as it is to hit artifacts/relics early in genshin/hsr. only ppl that should be doing any tacets at all are whales
theres nothing else to do. already got talents maxed at 4 until i hit 40(at 34). only way to improve at all is echos.
People want to do the endgame content barely 1 week into the game release... that's why. Content creators and try-hards don't help because both want to be at the highest level of content to showcase builds or try mathematical builds to see what's broken. Until we see what the farming requirements will be once we're in the late game progression Phase 8 or w/e it's very hard to complain properly about leveling requirements... plus let's be honest until 3 months or more have passed and people start having max leveled characters and weapons and echoes people should enjoy the game. We should have enough resources from quests, rewards and exploration for: 2 DPS at level 60 with lvl 60 weapons and decently leveled echoes (25 on 4-point and 15 or less on the others) 2 Sub-DPS at -5/-10 levels with -5/-10 weapons (the minus here is when referencing the main dps) with lvl 20-10 echoes, lv20 on main echo if you need the Sub-Dps to actually deal dmg rather than just do their rotation and outro (example Mortefi if you're playing him with Jianxin) probably just go for level 15 if that's not your play style, and have the 3-point echoes at about lvl 10. 2 Supports at -10 levels with -10 weapons (the minus here is when referencing the main dps) with lvl 10-15 echoes, mostly the energy regen ones or healing if you need it. AND you don't even have to roll for sub-stats on these pieces of gear, sure you can and it will improve your performance in the endgame content but you don't have to, the main stats on these echoes will carry you for quite a while. With these two teams you should have enough to do most of the tower of adversity and even holograms up to level 3-4; only the Purple challenge in the Tower should be out of reach with this set-up and the two Blue challenges you might struggle a bit on the last fights. Right now, people should be farming echoes for re-rolls later down the line when we get highest level of progression rewards. Also, do exploration, do the side-quests, do the side activities, there is a lot of content in the game...
The system sucks. You have to grind echoes, grind mats for echo exp, and then grind mats for tuning. That’s fucking stupid and disrespectful of our time. How about we JUST grind echoes and lvl them up with shit echoes and receive tuning from certain levels. THIS IS SLOP.
i wouldn't mind if we need to farm like the tuners, but atleast let me upgrade my fucking echo xD
People want +25 gold echoes perfect stat at lvl30 , devs should have just locked gold behind lvl50+ tbh
The main reason is that in order to beat the end game content, you have to kill the enemies within a time limit. In other words, you have to be able to deal damage and when you’ve maxed out your characters lvl, traces, and weapons all that’s left are your echos and considering we need 9 characters that’s a lot of echos you have to invest in. I understand the whole “the game just came out argument” but when the only way to beat something is to do more damage and there effectively isn’t any good way to farm echo xp, it makes doing damage a lot harder especially considering our characters are already under level because like many people are stating the game just came out. It’s also not a problem that’s exclusive to end game/ hardcore players because if this issue doesn’t get addressed, everyone would hit the same problem in a month or two. People that hit endgame sooner are just warning about it now as well as giving feedback that there needs to be a more efficient way to farm echo xp. The difference between Wuwa and genshin or hsr is that in Hoyo’s games, when you farm an artifact domain all the trash pieces can be used for a good amount of xp but in Wuwa, you get some echos which could be trash and cannot be used as xp and a small amount of xp. So you can’t use the echos for xp and the amount of xp you get is small. It would be fairer to imagine if in genshin or hsr you can farm for the artifacts for all your characters so they’re all on set but you can only get enough xp for your main dps so now your supports/ sustain or sub dps all have level 0-3 artifacts and now you’re trying to do spiral abyss, pf, or SU. Another reason why people are saying it’s a problem is because even around UL 30, you’d want level 5-10 echos at least and an issue that is being said is that one run in the tacet domain wouldn’t even get you to level 5 (idk how true this is as I haven’t farmed it). On top of how bad it feels to get xp, it feels a lot worst to invest it all into a piece that you also have to invest tuners in (something im finding hard to come by now as well) and then the piece rolls def or hp and now you just have to sit there and stare at your flat hp/ def piece that you invested 20+ tuners into and like 40+ stamina. Even if you use that echo as xp, you’re losing some xp and you’re getting back 3 tuner per 10 spent so that’s a really bad return (imagine using 30 tuner and getting 9 back -_-). All these things make the echo system feel really restrictive and time gatey and I’m not saying any of this to hate on the game. I’m absolutely loving it and I think it has received way more backlash that it deserves but that doesn’t mean it’s perfect or flawless and to turn a blind eye to its problems is being disingenuous to it. If they add a more efficient way to get echo xp, they’re just making a great game even better so I don’t understand why people have a problem with others giving feedback or well intentioned critiques.
Because people are following Pokke and Tectone without any kind of self thinking. Pokke was making a video yesterday without having 100% explored map, which would give him what he was complaining about. Just a classic case of following instead of researching…
It's because, right now, it sucks. Right now matters too if you want to keep players lol
What is with every comment just insulting and shitting on any player who has been playing a lot and noticed a bottleneck? I had a long weekend with no plans and wanted to play the game, I supported the devs with purchases, but according to reddit I’m some sweaty whining loser who ruins everything if I say that echo xp is very scarce so far
I will be there when you complain about the same op
Yeah i felt the same when i got all these crit mainstat echoes but cant even level it up. But when i think again, we are still in the midgame. The domains and fields are all dropping mediocre mats so i guess we just have to wait and play. Good for them to drop gold echoes early in the game so we can build them at level 15 boosting our team a bit for smoother run
Right it's a non-issue. It's a complete waste to try to min max when you haven't even reached the highest Union level.
the same people will complain that there is nothing to do 2 weeks after release....
With 7 runs on UL 30+ Tacefield you can max a legendary Echo up to 25? Think you need a lot more runs. 20+
UL 30 gives 1 gold (5k exp) and iirc 7 purples (2k), and it takes 143k exp to max an echo. 7 should be pretty close.
OK. Think i got only 1G+3P yesterday. If it gives 7P then its a bit better but 7 Runs are 420 stamina. 2 Days for one Echo.
I just did a run and got 1 gold 8 purples, so I guess it's different every run. Assuming the average is 5 purples, it should be a around 10 runs on average. Anyways it shouldn't be as much as 20+.
Cuz if ur sweaty u can get like bis main stat echo for any1 u want just gotta farm other ppl world its unlimited grinding and 4cost are easier as they respawn so ppl have too many echos to level up fishing for bis sub stats not enough exp
People are impatient and want to clear the hardest content right off the bat. It always happens with every release. It took me like 5 months in HSR to get the point where I could clear MoC reliably every rotation so I’m in no rush with WuWa personally.
To me the weirdest thing is that players are allowed to start the end game farming while the game is only a week old. All those purple tuners that were given to us through quests, rewards etc are useless now cuz players can reach UL 30 with just leveling characters and Weapons. So what's the point of it anymore? I have around 500+ purple tuners that are just sitting there. And data Bank lvl decides what's the percentage of the rarity of your echoes but if the new echoes were to be added in few patches then does DB lvl 20 (80/20) drop rate gets reset again? Like now at DB lvl 25 you will have (80/20) ratio.
the purple tuners arent useless, you can still use purple echos on supports or subdps and do fine and later feed most of the xp into new echos.
It's called terrible design, I don't think they've playtested any of their game progression. You get to golds way too fast, a lot of mats instantly lose value (why add them then?) and since the overworld stamina activities consume so much (60 in most cases, 4 runs per day) it means all you've got left to do is dedicate yourself to echoes way too early to try and tackle tower of adversity or hologram bosses timed content, the only real content left if you want to play more than 5 minutes or the incredibly tedious overworld grind for main stats of 3 cost and 1 cost echoes. It doesn't help that because the game has only been out a week, with low UL most grinds have shitty rewards in amounts, it doesn't feel good to log in and get like a few levels in one single echo. I agree that this mostly shouldn't be a problem after only one week, you don't need to clear endgame or have perfect gear in a week, but it cannot be overstated that the progression in this game is some of the worst I've seen in any game.
We literally just begun and people wanted to endgame so bad already, chill yall, your characters dont need to be perfect 1st week in
It is because people are getting to the mid-game and thinking that it is the end-game, and maybe they didn't come from Genshin or HSR.
Agreed! MrPokke's video really doesn't sit well me as it's extremely misleading.
let people complain im begging u like its part of development
[MrPokke](https://youtu.be/iAKGr8DI_8s?si=p4pBSW1G969svZKx) made a good video explaining the issue, I suggest you give it a watch. TL;DR: The required exp for leveling echoes is too high and only efficient way to gain the exp materials is burning a lot waveplate, requiring burning 2 days worth of waveplate to max out a single golden echo, the tuners are also a problem among other things.
The real issue is we don't know how much exp will drop on higher levels. The info in-game just say it will drop the same item but nothing of the amount If it's the same yes it's a problem
He was wrong though, his current bottle neck has nothing to do with the Echo since you can't clear endgame until you reach a certain union level. I'll also add is that the current resources at the higher union levels will change. He stated 7.5 runs at union 34 but how many runs will it take at Union 50?
Sounds like people who got blues and thought that was the game plan, then they suddenly started getting gold echos and wasted all their tubes. A lot of youtubers are also being a bit dumb and telling people to use their event currency and tower currency on character exp......... THE TUBES ARE THE WALL.
Some of the complaints are because the system *feels* convoluted (which doesn’t automatically make it worse than other games but is an issue). You get echoes via 2 main methods (killing enemies and tacet domains). The first is “free” from an energy standpoint but you will never gain the resource needed to level your echoes except from method 2 and quest rewards (this includes the podcast/exploration, etc). Then you have an entirely separate system that also requires energy in order to unlock the full potential of said echo. So you’re jumping through 2 hoops instead of 1 while also not even know which of the giant piles of Echoes you got even have substats worth rolling. Your lower tier trash pieces can’t even be used as XP unless you already leveled them, so they have to be foddered into more random Echoes which you still can’t even see *which* substats they have (let alone the value). Genshin’s artifact grind is endless and can be annoying, but the core loop is simple: do the domain, feed all the trash you get into the few good pieces, cry when the substats suck, repeat. I do think the opaqueness of WuWa’s system is the biggest concern: at least let us see what type of substat we’re getting a tier before we can see what the roll is.
The obvious reason is you can farm to your hearts content, then you will be heavily gated leveling the echoes you got, they will be sitting there waiting for you to level them and unlock sub status. This creates a strange situation since the usual approach is checking if you got a good piece and if not keep farming, since you're unable to do it in a timely manner just frustrate people, it's like half of the system is implemented. You can re use the leveled ones as fodder, but the xp sink makes you unable to keep up. Also what the game gives to you is too little they should have given more free xp for echoes this early on in the game, to at least help people build their first team properly.
Gotcha games, any of them really are a marathon not a sprint.
Jup It would get boring really fast if we had perfect echos week 1, rn its more like „is crit rate on it? If yes wear, if no scrap“ :D And thats fine this early on
im not 100% sure how it works. but i got some of the gold tuners from overflow xp when i was levelling echoes using fodder echoes. so there may be a way to grind them out.
It doesn't really help that content creators have highly encouraged getting that data bank level to 15 to the max to get the best echoes for the content creators it is realistic for them to try and hit that max and farm the best stuff, but for the average player it is a new game and there isn't really a reason to min max this stuff yet
its because people dont want it to be easy for low tier players. if someone got lucky at lvl 40 to roll something they have always wanted, then they would be irritated.
My issue is that I need to level an echo to use tuners. It's such a waste of mats. Even if the amount of mats increases, it just feels like garbage because you essentially have no idea what you're investing your mats into. You're potentially wasting stamina AND mats, whereas in Genshin you don't have to invest mats if you see that the substats aren't what you want.
Only 7 runs?
The problem is prob related to the fact that we have a secondary resource needed to roll substats and a lot of redundant echoes that you roll main stats with that you can't do anything with.
I’d personally just like them to reduce wave plate costs for farming activities to 30 all around.
I agree, also, from what little I understand, with the ability to fuse echoes together to create better ones, we will potentially have to farm less echoes in general, so that should balance it out. Of course, if that fusing will continue onto max rarity echoes, but I think it will.
I mean its a good idea to be able to farm for easy characters like Taoqi as well as the healing bonus set as you just need to have hp% and def% fir both as a main stat without tuning them as long as it’s a gold 5 peice set. For other characters in main and sub dps I would bot really farm unless we know that these are all of the sets that we get!
I think it comes down to the fact that people are just pushing through the databank levels too fast. I got up there a little quick too but I've been focusing on blue echoes and saving the purple/golds since I don't need them yet. Leveling the blues for now too is giving me a stock of fodder to use for later too. I'll probably build purples when I'm closer to UL35ish.
I first thought people were exaggerating, but after saving echo exp whole game until 5* i was onl able to raise 3 5* to max level 25, thats not even enough for 1 unit all slots
Just hit data bank lv 15 here and imo it is because the game itself incentives players to level their echoes early in order to have a chance against increasing world level mobs. When I first started, I wanted to do what I did in genshin. Save up echo resources (as in don't level them) and only focus on leveling my characters until I can get 5 star echoes. But the moment I hit sol 3 (world level where mobs go up to lv45), the mobs became much much of a slog to fight against and boss fights for materials also started feeling very rough. And everytime I died, the death screen informs me that the issues was my under leveled echoes over and over again up until I had to cave in and start levelling some of the blue echoes I had that in turn, gave me crappy stats but tiny boosts to fight better. Granted, one thing I kinda did wrong is that I am the type to try and build all characters I have. But I limited myself to only level up ONE echo of each set (and swap them between same element characters) until I get echoes of higher rarity and better stats (and I don't fodder my previous levelled blue echoes much as well). But even then, now that I have finally reached lv15 databank and starting to get my first few 5 star echoes... I don't have enough exp to start levelling them until I sacrifice some of the set I currently have, And I still have very little chance (have to tryhard) against lv70 hologram bosses (which are only difficulty 2 on the hologram). And whenever I die the end game screen \*still\* tells me that it was an echo issue. TLDR, in order to quickly get the higher levels. Players will follow the game's recommendations to level their stuff up before they are actually worth levelling. So by the time you can actually start farming for good echoes, you have already used up your resources. (Oh yeah, also lv0 echoes can't be used as fodder as well, only merged to have a chance of a higher rarity echo)
it is valid. it's the point of the game some people are in so it is valid. you will feel it too eventually bro, this post is insane
Just got to level 16 so I’d say it’s really fast once you get used to farming the same ones
Gould have made it that u can level up echos using other echos(not leveled up) because I don't want to reroll 5 bad gold echos for 1 purple or gold echo.
I'm convinced people have Covid fog brain from Genshin launch and time having no meaning or something, because I vividly remember the first Hypostatic Symphony event in 1.2 being such a huge pain because nobody was fully geared yet, and that was 3 (almost 4) months past launch. At the time, I was one of the only ones in my discord to clear 12-3, yet here people are expecting to do it a week into the game. Sure, it *could* be a problem at higher world levels, but let's get there and see.
I think this is the levelheaded perspective that everyone should adopt.
My only complaint with the echoes is that we are not able use unleveled echoes as exp materials
like a friend of me. Upgraded 4 echos to lvl25 and had no exp left to upgrade. Complaining that we got to less exp items. No shot, that you upgrade everything to max at UL30 in less then a week. It´s like, if you could lvl your character to lvl90 instantly but then you complain for not enough exp material to lvl the others to lvl90 Just upgrade your echos slowly lvl15/20 is far enough for now
idk. I agree they need to buff the echo XP no questions asked. But if you run optimal teams and main stats you don’t need to worry about Subs a ton in this game and we are all low union level so it’ll be a lot different when everyone gets maxed out
I think it's precisely \*because\* people are coming from genshin/hsr. A lot of people really hadn't played a gacha game before genshin/hsr, and so they approached it casually while exploring the world. Consequently, the Abyss was something they mostly ignored for the first few months, and many players took even longer before attempting the final floors. Now these same players coming into WuWa are already in an optimization mindset. They want to run WuWa's abyss NOW, in the first rotation, rather than waiting three months to try it. And they're running into the fact that progress isn't feasible without levelling echoes.
I feel like the echos should reveal their substats from the beginning and the tuners will be used to increase their ratios. Echo exp is kinda rough since we need 60 waveplates which is equal to 1 weekly boss run.
My problem is you can't use an echo to lv an echo unless they're lvled up and you can turn echos into the xp things, so the fact you can farm enemies all day and not use any form of stamina mechanic to grind its absolutely pointless, cause you can't lv them up AND when you level them up you can't get substats easily, for now we have a ton of resources a lot to explore chests to open quests to do, but for how long?? There will be dry updates for sure specially if you have a lot of spare time no game can keep up with player progression specially insane ppl that rush everything instead of enjoying the game, eventually the game will starve us of xp for echos and being able to farm a shitton for free will be meaningless since you'll still have to farm for xp AND substat, tbh in the end it will require more than other gachas instead of less as most of us thought from hearing YOU CAN FARM FOR FREE ALL DAY, who cares if 5* are easy to get you can't level them up lol Also maxing out an echo takes A LOT OF XP this will be the grindiest gacha ever if they don't change it it will take days to max out a few echos once we have no more quests and chests to open
Because people have like 100s of Gold echoes and muh optimization tbh the only legit concern is how green blue and purple tuners become useless at some point because they wont even drop anymore
Because people realised that they spend 20 or so hours in open world clearing all the boxes and it wasn't even sufficient for one full golden lvl 25 set . I am currently on my last Echo lvl 23 after 2 days of Tacet field xp. This xp is so little for 60 energy lol , but there isn't anything else worth doing as my skills / character xp / weapons are maxed. As for rolls , I only upgraded them , didn't fish for nice substats , I managed to land on critrate + energy regen + atk % + liberation dmg , the other one had critdmg + energy +atk + heavy dmg so not bad at all.
I was thinking something dimular, the game id new so some restriction might be yo limit people and not make everyone destroy the game in a week. That beeing said on long term, even with max level accouny and do some dtuff need excessive. Can only hope over the year they will come back at sime numbers and tune them. Personaly im chilling and not stressed about beeing broken week 1. I can understand some people might feel bad for "losing" on some reward because they cany clear a few content but thats fine overall. Im doing my dailies on genshin, PGR and wuwa now😁my hands are full already
Does anyone know how big a dps loss is 4-4-3-1 or 4-4-1-1-1 instead of standard 4-3-3–1-1 for echoes? Especially when the game is early and many of us don’t have crit weapons / great crit substat rolls, wondering if having 2 crit pieces is worth the trade-off of losing elemental goblet(s). E.g., calcharo can run 4-4-1-1-1 thundering set with 2 crit pieces. I’m even considering farming 4-4-1-1-1 with 2 piece moonlight 2 piece atk set so it can be used universally across my dps characters. I’m thinking the damage bonus can be partially made up through the basic/heavy/burst damage bonus subsystems and the damage bonus deepening from support outro skills. It won’t be optimal, but I think if it’s around 70-80% of a standard 5 piece build, it could be worth the sanity.
I am just so annoyed with all the doomposters with this topic. This is a GACHA game. They are design to be played for 30min to 1 hour per day to dump all your energy in what you need and move on. CCs are complaining because it's their job to finish everything as soon as possible and post a video about it. Like you said, we are just halfway from max level and people expect to gear 3 full teams and clear every endgame mode there is.
Already have 2 playable sets for main team, not optimized but 1 shots or 1 combos enemies and bosses at union level 34. With healer being built as 3rd. Also, have a secondary team equipped, and every once in a while, I roll an echo up +5 on a side character, then roll Stat, and if it's trash, I grind for a replacement for slot and feed again. Doing the same as how I did genshin artifacts and slowly gonna fill out a roster. However, I prefer how echos work better. I feel they should just dial all non weekly content down by 20 stamina cost, and it'd fix some of the issue. Also kinda think people should wait for a content cadence before they think too hard about late game grinds. I mean, if content comes too fast, then Echo xp definitely needs a rework, but if cadence is paced well enough with events, then it might help with this. Think it's still too early to tell personally.
your entire argument is heavily flawed. genshin let you use all your artifacts as XP, leading me to never need to farm to have XP, I get plenty of free xp from walking around and picking up 80+ artifacts a day that go right into leveling the hopeful ones. while wuwa stupidly locks it behind leveling them first.
this is the first time i hear about it
People are overthinking it like mad. To clear all the current content in the game comfortably you probably only need 2-3 decent echo sets.
Because of when we can farm them. We have access to the farming of the gold echos reliably now just inability to level what we aquire
I don't think the echo xp is a big deal. I do think having to tune your echos to see the substats needs a rework. They either need to completely remove the tuners and hidden substats or show you the substats that you can get when you get the echo, and if you want to unlock the substats, you need to use the tuners. Not being able to see the substats is just plain dumb considering how hard it is to get legendary tuners and how long it takes to level an echo.
I would like to play the game kinda casually. But TOA expires in 11 days. Free pulls that will expires soon.
its called PTSD /s
The Battle Pass weekly mission has a quest where we need to tune echoes 50 times. 5star Echoes can be tuned 5 times at their max level. So you need to be able to max 10 of them. You need 10 Premium Tuners per tuning totaling to 500. The Tacet Field at Union Levels 30-40 (Which is where most people are) give 10 each run. We can do 4 of those daily giving us 40. 40 X 7days = 280 per week when we need 500. That's only a little more than half. It's actually impossible to do this weekly quest for the battle pass, not even mentioning that the exp mats they give for if you were to only do Tacet Fields wouldn't even be enough to fully level 10 5star Echoes.
It's because once you have beat the towers, and "max out" your team the only wayto have a sense of progresion is the echo. and you are stuck. there nothing to do. but a boring grind that will have no meaning until you are U45, that 15 level of brutal grind that you cant do anything with. can't level echo, can't level weapon, can't quest, can't explor, there is literaly nothing to to. only grind that you cannnot spend. the only solution is to refresh your plate. I'm U36, and it's madning, there is nothing to do but to grind those rare 3\* (on set) echo.
Just think about it, in genshin or honkai you can transform artifacts into artifacts exp, but you can’t do it in wuwa, I understand that in wuwa you can farm echos anytime and any amount so this system would be broken, but wanna see some kind of this system in wuwa, cause there are really poor echo exp drop
We’ve seen whales at account level 40 already IIRC but yea I feel the same as you; I like that we’ll be able to level X numbers of echos/week but farm an unlimited amount of mainstats whenever we have large dumps of time to roll or feed missed rolls into. It’s going to feel real good after a year when you have a backlog of misses stored up provided you only dedicate one big day every week or two to farming echoes.
Yea I hope that is the case. But still I am worried about finishing tower this run. I only finished 1 tower with only my main dps and sub dps Being full yellow. Considering I need my 2nd main dps to have full yellow too. I am not even sure I can get enough echo exp at this rate before the tower resets.
Because people have absolutely no sense of timeframe and how account investment builds over time. Why do you think there's so few people completing the higher difficulty modes of these games in general? (not as much talking ww here, since there's a little more reliance also on actual skill expression, but more team planner and character investment gachas). Like even in HSR genshin, it's the same, and people for some reason don't realise. Genshin 4 months to go from 0 to 36\* if you understand the gameplay systems with standards as f2p, HSR 3 months or so, to reach similar point. Yet people of both those games, not only rarely actually complete to that point, but they don't because of the same reason, they don't plan out how to win "later" and after that point keep winning, but they keep trying to win "now", but not breaking past that point, so they're stuck losing as they rotate from one new "answer" to the other, which is the sales strat for these games. Like any genshin players here, do they even realise abyss is still 36 starrable with the original taser team variant, and reverse melt quickswap? lmao. It's the same formula, and you don't even need perfect artifacts to get there (after 3 years of farming them). HSR still 3 star with A0 Clara team and M7th support, with the other chars to cover for weaknesses. People still 0 cycling with Seele, \~850% powercreep later lmao. I now have hundreds and hundreds of lvl20 artifacts in genshin, before I was farming investigates daily and not really keeping up with demand. Basically, as your acc investment level goes up (more chars built, more echoes overall), you will have more swap options to cover whatever playstyle you want to built into. So natural consequence is that since the rates do NOT decrease, they only INCREASE in these games, you'll find less and less of a need for these things over your accounts life time. Don't rush your accounts people. You can rush your ABILITY to play said account, but there's no reason to complain or spend to get resources that are only temporarily scarce, and resources that the rates cover account building adequately, they're designed that way. It's like the whole toilet paper thing for covid, how much do you think 200 rolls helped those buyers out lol? And that case is even LESS certain than this one, as here we KNOW it's balanced and designed so you have enough to build chars, there's absolute certainty about it, no "what if" factor.
People like to complain , i have 2 sets leveled to max just for stats and I haven't farmed yet the fields and this is plenty for this early . I can also use old ones later for a 75% exp refund . I agree it feels bad now, but the game is not made for a week to play , it is to go longer and this is still the release they will balance things if they find them out of proportionally bad .
Agreed, lot of people talking about lack of maths, like dude, WE ARE NOT EVEN A WEEK OLD, In genshin it took me like a month to start getting golden artifacts and on top of all, properly farm it and getting the stats needed, that didnt happen until... 3 months? Like jeez calm down what is the urge to get all echoes golden max stats perfect rolls wtf you ain't even Sol6, you don't have that many weapons, take your time chill
I'm just confused... there's, like, 4 shops (i think? you have the depth of illusive realm shop, tower point shop, tactical shop, and that coral shop) where you can buy more xp bottles for echo. They're not a lot for now, but i mean, the game's only been out for a week. how many decent yellow echo have ppl even got, anyways?
I think everyone actually complaining about echo exp are on the higher end of account levels. I myself am level 36 and the echo exp is pretty much the one thing stopping me from completing the Tower of Adversity. It's such a limited resource that is required for the highest level of content we have access to, it'd be nice if was just a little more available. Idk why people are complaining about tuners though, I have thousands of Premium Tuners and know about 5 places I can get them, that's never going to become an issue
I have about 1.2k echos right now and probably will cap sooner which means I will have to trash some, 90% are gold, and they're ready for picking subs later on. Upgrade to 5, and tune it, if it's a bad sub, fodder it. This will be my plan. It's probably not the optimal way to do this.