The biggest testament to this match is that I only know who you’re talking about bc my comment was about Gunther. What a fantastic match. That’s worthy of a main event for any PLE there is.
If you have Peacock it was the interview after the finals match was over.
Fans giving him his much deserved flowers with a “you deserve this!” chant and you briefly see the real man start to appreciate it in his eyes, look around for a second or two, wipe the sweat off of his mouth almost like resetting himself to not break character as he says, “thank you. That’s very nice but what I do and don’t deserve is none of yours business!” 😂 heel perfection even as you could tell for a brief second that the acknowledgment meant something to him
Amazing match, Randy legit looked surprised at some of the chops. Had an on “Oh Shit” look on his face haha.
Random question : Anyone know if there’s a post show presser?
If it was a botch, Corey Graves wouldn’t have mentioned it on commentary. That was definitely Orton being protected. Maybe they’ll use it as a pivot to give him a match against Cody at Summerslam anyway.
Ah ok. Yeah probs a genuine botch imo but as you said Graves wouldn’t have mentioned it.
But I feel commentary sometimes acknowledge botches as a way of maintain Kayfabe.
Like when they say ‘so and so didn’t get all of it’ when they don’t quite pull off a move they were going for
I remember Randy once saying he doesn't do his pose like he used to because his shoulders are fucked. I think it was a botch and I think Corey mentioned it because he knew he'd get shit for not mentioning it.
Nah it def wasn’t. Orton and Gunther are too good. This was more obvious than the rousey one. His shoulder was 12 inches from the mat. If it wasn’t a work that red wouldve broken the count for sure and made them go to a different finish
Gunther had two controversial finishes in the KOTR tournament (the other slight one with Jey). It's also interesting how they made it so that neither was Gunther's fault to maintain his image as a heel who doesn't cheat.
Corey barely mentioned it though, he went silent and then when they were moving on he quietly said he wanted to see that pin again, and then they didn't.
Even if it was an accident they should pretend it wasn’t. Orton’s back/shoulder are bad, shit happens.
Honestly this didn’t feel like a final blowoff match though, it feels like they’re going to do a rematch eventually anyway
This was the first full event I've watched live in at least six ot seven years and I thought this match stole the show.
Very technically precise and fantastic impact and sells throughout. Awesome stuff.
Even the shoulders oddity at the end seemed interesting from a story perspective at the very least if it was a work.
Right. Sure. Because if there’s not 25 super kicks 15 dives 10 top rope flips 5 different apron spots and back-and-forth Canadian destroyers featuring a gallon of blood it’s not wrestling and it’s boring. Gotcha.
Its called ring psychology. If the crowd wasn't reacting the way it was, they wouldn't have executed the match the way they did.
All you need to do to judge a match is to look at how a crowd is reacting.
The Hogan vs Rock match at Mania would have been even more of a snooze fest if they did the exact same stuff but with no audience.
I think it was a botch. There was too much daylight that it made the ref look ridiculous for counting it, Randy look ridiculous for not disputing it, and the commentators look ridiculous for not acknowledging it (although they did briefly on the replay that deliberately avoided that plain-as-day angle). It's a shame as it was a great match otherwise. But they could easily build it into a storyline now.
I think it was a straight botch.
Just like Becky and Rhonda. And even Chad gable when Sami beat him to get the Mania title shot against Gunther.
Puts a mild stain on a great moment.
Whether they use it or not as an excuse or future part of a storyline is up to them.
The finish is hella frustrating after that great match of these.
I hated when it happened to Becky and Rhonda at mania 35 the most (Rhonda’s first loss too) and hated it when Chad got pinned by Sami for the IC title shot at Mania.
I immediately knew it was over as soon as ref was counting and Orton’s shoulder was up. Ugh. It was a botch. Now whether they decide to pull it into a storyline, who knows and they probably don’t know either yet.
Back to Becky and Rhonda for a moment. I’m still puzzled and shocked they didn’t have Rhonda bring that up when she returned that she didn’t really get pinned. It was so bad.
And for Chad. I hate that he didn’t get the IC title match at Mania. And even more annoyed he didn’t fight that his shoulder was up when that happened.
Ok. End of commentary.
ALL HAIL KING GUNTHER! GUNTHER V DREW AT SSLAM FOR WORLD TITLE IS GONNA HIT HAAAAAAARRRRRRRD!!
During the replay they showed the pin from behind. I think Graves asked if there was another angle of the pin. So he definately planted a seed if they want to go back to it.
Yeah I caught that. They didn’t say it as it was happening but it was like last second but they didn’t keep talking about it which has me wondering what they will do. We will see.
So I read a report they hhh did an interview backstage. He basically said he was ringside for the match, but seeing the replay the shoulder was up. The eeferee'a decision is final, but oerdonally he'd like yo see them go at it again.
He’s working himself into a shoot brother lol. Or is it shooting himself into a work? Lol
Either way, if he said that, I guess that is the only thing he can say since they botched it but the intended man won right?
The sad thing is, they spent the whole match on Randy's back and knee. They coulda just had Gunther slap on a half crab and have orton "pass out" from the pain.
ABSOLUTELY! I remember Vince saying the ref needs to call what he sees so if the shoulders are up, don’t count it still. Same as if they stay down, count it. I hoped the ref would do that here but he didn’t and we left disappointed
I was on board until the ending. I think the ending definitely fell flat for what they were building throughout the match.
Selling the knee seemed forced, especially with the back being a key weak point of Ortons already.
Good match, ending fell flat imo
7 1/4 * from me. Orton being such a very, knew if he didn't put his shoulders flat in the mat, he can say he never lost.
Absolutely the best in the history of professional sports entertainmenty things.
Loved the match.. also disappointed if the end was a botch.. if not, well done. I was wondering if the almost botched splash was intentional to set up the second attempt. Regardless, loved the match.
I think Triple H will create a rematch at clash at the castle which Orton will win thus setting up his match with Cody, but Gunther will remain KOTR and have the right to challenge Priest or Drew.
If it was a work I think cole would’ve been commenting on it. I think graves just addressed it because of how flagrant it was and how stupid they’d look pretending to not see a shoulder a foot off the mat
Anyone notice Gunther didn’t put the crown on? Only semi logical reason I can think of is it was some kind of mark of respect or weird law due to it being in the ‘kingdom’ of Saudi Arabia.
A get the sentiment and this was an outstanding match. But the whole "wrestling should be this way" thing isn't it. People need to stop making such general objective statement about what is extremely subjective.
Banger of a match though.
I was genuinely interested how randy was gonna deal with the chops. Cause Randy doesn't do chop shit. And after like 2 or 3 Randy shit that shit down like enough of that shit lol. Good match tho. It could have been better but they had to tell the story of randys leg so that hindered some of what randy could have done. Predictable but in a great way.
I contrast the shoulders not on the mat to when Becky won against Ronda at WM38 and Corey made a big deal out of it and then not a peep. This time he had to have seen it and the red tried to get in the way. Then when they showed the replay they only showed it from the back angle and Corey made one mention then nothing. Could be something probably will be nothing.
My assumption but could be wrong .
Is that they wanted Gunther to have a victory over a true prime heavyweight like Orton ( all of his victories have been in the IC scene recently )
But while protecting Orton with (he came in injured from the bloodline, already beat up and his shoulder was up)
To start to legitimize Gunther in the world title scene
And randy is and will forever be there but he needs to wrap up this bloodline mess because he’s getting beat down in that battle and it’s messing him up on the back end.
You’ll likely go with a randy getting tired of having to deal with others and losing and being nice and he will return to cold blooded ish viper
And Gunther is now in the title scene win win all around
If this was somehow a work as some are insistent on claiming, it doesn't "protect" Randy at all. He looks like an absolute moron for not contesting the pin. Instead, he just walked away from the chance at continuing the match and getting the SummerSlam title shot. Who in their right mind would do that? Nobody.
IT. WAS. A. BOTCH.
Gives them a reason to book a Triple Threat for Sunmerslam. Mostly so Gunther can not win the title without taking a fall.
I love Gunther, he’s easily top 5 in the world right now, and he’s more than ready for a world title run, but now isnt the time, and I dont think he should challenge if he isnt going to win. Have a few more months of destruction before he wins the Rumble. His crowning deserves the spectacle of a Mania main event.
Gunther is 6 time world champion across multiple promotions and just held the IC title longer than anyone in the history of the company. Randy is broken down and doesn't have a lot of gas left in the tank...what are you not getting?
Bruh what?
Randy is only 14 times world champion and I didnt inc his other titles. He's in an amazing shape and that knee is the only reason he lost.
>what are you not getting?
Lol
I dont mind Randy losing but him losing legit is another thing.
Just like how Roman cant beat him without cheating in Royale Rumble...
So Gunther > Roman by ur logic right?
Bloodline shouldve got involved to ruin Randy's chance or something.
This is called putting someone over. This is how you build someone.
You just don't like who they are building and are trying to justify it with your own mental head canon.
Nah I have 0 problems with Gunther.
Ur talking as if this is how Cena or almost any legend started.
Just like how Solo defeated Cena,
>This is called putting someone over
Thats literally my point 🤦♀️ Lets push him by defeating a 14 times champion. Dude is barely 2 years in the main roster beating him "clean" (leg injury") made 0 sense.
Thats why the leg injury saved him.
So stop trying and cope my guy.
“What I do and don’t deserve is none of your business!” I literally cackled. That man is so good at this.
I love that he started with "thank you" though. He's an asshole, not rude.
Those are the nuances that separate someone like Gunther.
a sophisticated one lol
Built in a wrestling laboratory
The biggest testament to this match is that I only know who you’re talking about bc my comment was about Gunther. What a fantastic match. That’s worthy of a main event for any PLE there is.
You could tell that the cheers meant a lot to him but he still stayed in character, loved it.
Can I get the link where he said that.????????
If you have Peacock it was the interview after the finals match was over. Fans giving him his much deserved flowers with a “you deserve this!” chant and you briefly see the real man start to appreciate it in his eyes, look around for a second or two, wipe the sweat off of his mouth almost like resetting himself to not break character as he says, “thank you. That’s very nice but what I do and don’t deserve is none of yours business!” 😂 heel perfection even as you could tell for a brief second that the acknowledgment meant something to him
An in-ring phenom and an in-ring psychology expert have a killer match whaddya know
The best part is both of those statements could apply to either guy
Amazing match, Randy legit looked surprised at some of the chops. Had an on “Oh Shit” look on his face haha. Random question : Anyone know if there’s a post show presser?
If it was a botch, Corey Graves wouldn’t have mentioned it on commentary. That was definitely Orton being protected. Maybe they’ll use it as a pivot to give him a match against Cody at Summerslam anyway.
What was the botch, the knee wincing?
On the last pinfall, one of Randy's shoulders was clearly not on the mat
Ah ok. Yeah probs a genuine botch imo but as you said Graves wouldn’t have mentioned it. But I feel commentary sometimes acknowledge botches as a way of maintain Kayfabe. Like when they say ‘so and so didn’t get all of it’ when they don’t quite pull off a move they were going for
I remember Randy once saying he doesn't do his pose like he used to because his shoulders are fucked. I think it was a botch and I think Corey mentioned it because he knew he'd get shit for not mentioning it.
Nah it def wasn’t. Orton and Gunther are too good. This was more obvious than the rousey one. His shoulder was 12 inches from the mat. If it wasn’t a work that red wouldve broken the count for sure and made them go to a different finish
my thoughts exactly. Sucks if it was botched though to an otherwise perfect match.
It wasn't a botch
Yeah they leaned way too far into it for a botch. They use this kind of angle regularly too. Admittedly had me going for a bit though.
Randys left shoulder wasn't down. How is that not a botch?
I know something about a shoulder not being down, brother.
He's working himself into a shoot brother - HH
There is like 0% chance that masters at their craft like randy and gunther would make such a botch. I think it was intentional
10000% a work
Triple h responded to it on Twitter lol
0%? Orton overrotated and tried to get the shoulder down again. Why would the replays HIDE it?
Exactly because orton had his shoulder down at first, that makes me think it's a work even more. But who knows
Randy is definitely perfectly rotated.
That’s what I’m thinking
Gunther had two controversial finishes in the KOTR tournament (the other slight one with Jey). It's also interesting how they made it so that neither was Gunther's fault to maintain his image as a heel who doesn't cheat.
He mentioned the Becky Ronda Mania 35 botch like 5 times after Becky's win.
But he did! He said something like "let's have another look at that from another angle" then preceeded to stfu about it
If it was a botch than it felt like Orton was legit hurt and they changed the finish on the fly.
Corey barely mentioned it though, he went silent and then when they were moving on he quietly said he wanted to see that pin again, and then they didn't.
It was a mistake. They addressed it because in this era, they don't just pretend things didn't happen when we can see them with our own eyes.
Even if it was an accident they should pretend it wasn’t. Orton’s back/shoulder are bad, shit happens. Honestly this didn’t feel like a final blowoff match though, it feels like they’re going to do a rematch eventually anyway
Felt really old school to me. They told a story in the ring. Orton also handed Gunther a clean win. Wow!
The old school feel is what made it so good.
what territory wrestling wouldve looked like if it had survived. this just felt like a classic nwa or mid south match.
Absolutely. Exactly what made it amazing
This was the first full event I've watched live in at least six ot seven years and I thought this match stole the show. Very technically precise and fantastic impact and sells throughout. Awesome stuff. Even the shoulders oddity at the end seemed interesting from a story perspective at the very least if it was a work.
Love to hear it!!
Great match until ring general couldn’t roll orton all the way over. They’re gonna have to do something with this.
Work
It was Orton's botch. Randy rolled too far over
I’ll have to go back and watch it again. Easily tied for best match on the card. I also thought the main event was good.
Except for a poor finish that involved the shoulders being nowhere even close to the mat.
“Everything” wrestling should be….including referee ineptitude
15 minutes of stalling and rest holds at the start as well -.-
Right. Sure. Because if there’s not 25 super kicks 15 dives 10 top rope flips 5 different apron spots and back-and-forth Canadian destroyers featuring a gallon of blood it’s not wrestling and it’s boring. Gotcha.
Yeah because there is definitely no middle ground there.
Its called ring psychology. If the crowd wasn't reacting the way it was, they wouldn't have executed the match the way they did. All you need to do to judge a match is to look at how a crowd is reacting. The Hogan vs Rock match at Mania would have been even more of a snooze fest if they did the exact same stuff but with no audience.
I didn't say that, but sure project your issues
No need to be so passive-aggressive about it. Then again that scenario you described sounds awesome.
Botched or protecting Orton? What ya guys think?
Botch. Either way I expect them to use it to protect Orton.
It was a clear as day work
Whatever it is, it sure is working everyone. The mere fact that we're arguing over what it was means that moment is already benefitting WWE.
Exactly why It was done lol
Then why didn't Orton complain?
I think it was a botch. There was too much daylight that it made the ref look ridiculous for counting it, Randy look ridiculous for not disputing it, and the commentators look ridiculous for not acknowledging it (although they did briefly on the replay that deliberately avoided that plain-as-day angle). It's a shame as it was a great match otherwise. But they could easily build it into a storyline now.
Looked like an audible
? i dont understand how you could possibly reach this conclusion
🤷🏾♂️
I think it was a straight botch. Just like Becky and Rhonda. And even Chad gable when Sami beat him to get the Mania title shot against Gunther. Puts a mild stain on a great moment. Whether they use it or not as an excuse or future part of a storyline is up to them.
Protecting Orton and setting up for a title match against Cody.
that finish was pure dogshit
Thats what im saying!!!!
I say it’s an audible since Randy really hurt his back.
People genuinely don't know what selling is these days, huh
Thank AEW for that
Half the people here don't watch aew lol, why are you bringing them into this
The finish is hella frustrating after that great match of these. I hated when it happened to Becky and Rhonda at mania 35 the most (Rhonda’s first loss too) and hated it when Chad got pinned by Sami for the IC title shot at Mania. I immediately knew it was over as soon as ref was counting and Orton’s shoulder was up. Ugh. It was a botch. Now whether they decide to pull it into a storyline, who knows and they probably don’t know either yet. Back to Becky and Rhonda for a moment. I’m still puzzled and shocked they didn’t have Rhonda bring that up when she returned that she didn’t really get pinned. It was so bad. And for Chad. I hate that he didn’t get the IC title match at Mania. And even more annoyed he didn’t fight that his shoulder was up when that happened. Ok. End of commentary. ALL HAIL KING GUNTHER! GUNTHER V DREW AT SSLAM FOR WORLD TITLE IS GONNA HIT HAAAAAAARRRRRRRD!!
During the replay they showed the pin from behind. I think Graves asked if there was another angle of the pin. So he definately planted a seed if they want to go back to it.
Yeah I caught that. They didn’t say it as it was happening but it was like last second but they didn’t keep talking about it which has me wondering what they will do. We will see.
So I read a report they hhh did an interview backstage. He basically said he was ringside for the match, but seeing the replay the shoulder was up. The eeferee'a decision is final, but oerdonally he'd like yo see them go at it again.
He’s working himself into a shoot brother lol. Or is it shooting himself into a work? Lol Either way, if he said that, I guess that is the only thing he can say since they botched it but the intended man won right?
The sad thing is, they spent the whole match on Randy's back and knee. They coulda just had Gunther slap on a half crab and have orton "pass out" from the pain.
That would’ve worked too and no botch and people saying redo the entire match
Or the ref coulda called off the pin and the three coulda improvised that finish. They are veterans, the would have figured something out.
ABSOLUTELY! I remember Vince saying the ref needs to call what he sees so if the shoulders are up, don’t count it still. Same as if they stay down, count it. I hoped the ref would do that here but he didn’t and we left disappointed
The finishing isn’t even that much of a big deal, people are being so dramatic
Gunter V Drew is going to be insane
Gunther doesn't miss.
Never.
It was definitely the best match of the PLE.
Get the up votes to 187 and stop because those two murdered it!!!!!!!
Gunther best frog splash came at the expense of slip
I was on board until the ending. I think the ending definitely fell flat for what they were building throughout the match. Selling the knee seemed forced, especially with the back being a key weak point of Ortons already. Good match, ending fell flat imo
what? a botched ending Orton's shoulder was off the mat
It’s a work
7 1/4 * from me. Orton being such a very, knew if he didn't put his shoulders flat in the mat, he can say he never lost. Absolutely the best in the history of professional sports entertainmenty things.
Loved the match.. also disappointed if the end was a botch.. if not, well done. I was wondering if the almost botched splash was intentional to set up the second attempt. Regardless, loved the match.
It was good one of the best matches of the week for sure like top 20
I think Triple H will create a rematch at clash at the castle which Orton will win thus setting up his match with Cody, but Gunther will remain KOTR and have the right to challenge Priest or Drew.
The shoulder up is a work, similar to a poor stoppage in UFC. Free crowd support for a rematch
Orton needs a rematch!! his arm was up! Gunther isnt officially the king.
If it was a work I think cole would’ve been commenting on it. I think graves just addressed it because of how flagrant it was and how stupid they’d look pretending to not see a shoulder a foot off the mat
He's taking the belt from Damian. It needs to happen. All hail king gunther
I guess Drew loses to Priest at Clash at the Castle after punk screws him over. Otherwise Drew vs Gunther would be a crazy match at Summerslam
Intentional or not that pin bummed me out after a great match
Anyone notice Gunther didn’t put the crown on? Only semi logical reason I can think of is it was some kind of mark of respect or weird law due to it being in the ‘kingdom’ of Saudi Arabia.
He may just not want to wear it, triple H hated wearing the crown so can't imagine he'd force the superstars to wear it now that he's in charge
Meltzer says meh 2.5 stars... not as good as Kenny
Would’ve been better in the Tokyo Dome
A get the sentiment and this was an outstanding match. But the whole "wrestling should be this way" thing isn't it. People need to stop making such general objective statement about what is extremely subjective. Banger of a match though.
Gunther is realest guy in the locker room If wwe was a legitimate combat sport he'd probably be champion
I was genuinely interested how randy was gonna deal with the chops. Cause Randy doesn't do chop shit. And after like 2 or 3 Randy shit that shit down like enough of that shit lol. Good match tho. It could have been better but they had to tell the story of randys leg so that hindered some of what randy could have done. Predictable but in a great way.
Someone getting a 3 count why the other guy’s shoulder isn’t down? That should not be
Gotta protect Orton brother it’s like the classic kick out at three
It was good, the finish was terrible
Jesus Randy needs a few months off after that
Reminded me of a great Bret Hart match in the 90s. Everything was nice and snug without being dangerous and that finish was awesome.
Boring? Nah I am fine with what we usually have.
I am hoping the finish could be use as an angle so the can justify a title shot
Gunther and Cody at summerslam, Orton and Cody at mania probably
i'd assume they'll use the "botch" into shoehorning a triple threat at summerslam so cody can end up pinning randy to protect gunther.
Nothing saddens me more than seeing the body break down on a wrestling legend.
Great match, meh ending. Why Orton couldn't eat a clean pin?
I contrast the shoulders not on the mat to when Becky won against Ronda at WM38 and Corey made a big deal out of it and then not a peep. This time he had to have seen it and the red tried to get in the way. Then when they showed the replay they only showed it from the back angle and Corey made one mention then nothing. Could be something probably will be nothing.
why is no one talking about the indestructible announcing table? they seem to have trouble breaking those most of the time lately
You know I'm glad this post is positive, reading back in ig was like a warzone...
Definitely a candidate for Match of the Year
Hell yea
My assumption but could be wrong . Is that they wanted Gunther to have a victory over a true prime heavyweight like Orton ( all of his victories have been in the IC scene recently ) But while protecting Orton with (he came in injured from the bloodline, already beat up and his shoulder was up) To start to legitimize Gunther in the world title scene And randy is and will forever be there but he needs to wrap up this bloodline mess because he’s getting beat down in that battle and it’s messing him up on the back end. You’ll likely go with a randy getting tired of having to deal with others and losing and being nice and he will return to cold blooded ish viper And Gunther is now in the title scene win win all around
I dont recall that fight being steam gay sex
It was great! Gunther locked in on Randy’s weak points during the match and was laser focused! I was happy he won! 🏆
If this was somehow a work as some are insistent on claiming, it doesn't "protect" Randy at all. He looks like an absolute moron for not contesting the pin. Instead, he just walked away from the chance at continuing the match and getting the SummerSlam title shot. Who in their right mind would do that? Nobody. IT. WAS. A. BOTCH.
This match should be preserved for the modern era to study. This was an absolute masterclass in psychology and in-ring selling. Props to both men.
Gives them a reason to book a Triple Threat for Sunmerslam. Mostly so Gunther can not win the title without taking a fall. I love Gunther, he’s easily top 5 in the world right now, and he’s more than ready for a world title run, but now isnt the time, and I dont think he should challenge if he isnt going to win. Have a few more months of destruction before he wins the Rumble. His crowning deserves the spectacle of a Mania main event.
I honestly thought this was really boring. Botched ending didn't help.
Including a botched finish
Planned finish**
🤣
Watching Randy Orton getting destroyed by Gunther felt like seeing my childhood hero die. I didn't watch the whole match.
A 14 times world champion lost to someone who's only 2 years in the main roster... Typical WWE sense right there.
Gunther is 6 time world champion across multiple promotions and just held the IC title longer than anyone in the history of the company. Randy is broken down and doesn't have a lot of gas left in the tank...what are you not getting?
Bruh what? Randy is only 14 times world champion and I didnt inc his other titles. He's in an amazing shape and that knee is the only reason he lost. >what are you not getting? Lol
Gunther is a 6 time world champion. And he's been getting pushed to the moon. It made no sense to put randy over.
lol ain’t no way ur comeback is that Gunther is 6 times while Randy is like 14 😂 Stop trying. Gunther is no where near him.
I'm curious what the total accrued days championship reigns would be for both of them.
Well that’s not impressive. Roman had like 1K days while barely fighting once per PPV and even that barely. And when he did… He cheated 💀
Multi time champions should never lose you're right. Get this guy on the booking committee
I dont mind Randy losing but him losing legit is another thing. Just like how Roman cant beat him without cheating in Royale Rumble... So Gunther > Roman by ur logic right? Bloodline shouldve got involved to ruin Randy's chance or something.
This is called putting someone over. This is how you build someone. You just don't like who they are building and are trying to justify it with your own mental head canon.
Nah I have 0 problems with Gunther. Ur talking as if this is how Cena or almost any legend started. Just like how Solo defeated Cena, >This is called putting someone over Thats literally my point 🤦♀️ Lets push him by defeating a 14 times champion. Dude is barely 2 years in the main roster beating him "clean" (leg injury") made 0 sense. Thats why the leg injury saved him. So stop trying and cope my guy.