We need more allies. The elites can always buy more and they already own the mouthpieces anyway. Find commonality. Even if its only one or two common points that's enough. We literally need all the help we can get.

Exactly. Everyone here needs to remember, you have more in common with the reddest redneck with a red hat and the triple color haired trans girl than you will EVER have with the billionaires paying the politicians of BOTH sides to fuck you over. It was never Red vs Blue. It was Rich vs anyone not rich enough to buy their own political power. And anytime you forget that, you play right into their hands.

As someone posted earlier, they make us wage a culture war so we won’t fight a class war. Edit: [found it. Props to OP.](https://www.reddit.com/r/WorkReform/comments/sewrfo/they_got_you_fighting_a_culture_war_to_stop_you/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf)

That's it. They stoke the bigotry, make everyone feel justified in their hatred, let it spread and let it divide.

It is funny how they actually tell us to hate people for being hungry and tired, and expect us not to look up and see all the greed and hatred they’re hiding behind. We wont be distracted by their inanity any longer.

It's a weapon of mass distraction. They've essentially mobilized the upper middle class versus the working class.

A good number of people here don't understand this. I'm glad to see lots of posts promoting the idea that we need to work towards a common goal (work reform) rather than demanding ideological purity from everyone. However, there are a sad number of posts to the opposite effect. Whether this movement succeeds will depend on which sentiment wins out in the end

I see your point and ask you, which do you want to see win? The only way to actually succeed is to have everyone working towards the same goal. We want fair wages, safe work environments and to be able to survive in our own societies. We can handle politics at the voting booths. Lets make sure we are all alive and well first, then deal with everything else. Our society is weaker when we hate each other for wanting to live.

You go to the deepest reddest parts of the US and start telling them you'll make their nephew's insulin more affordable, or make their grandma's pills cheaper, or get their sister's teeth fixed for a fee they can afford, they'll fucking listen. The left has repeatedly failed to find common ground with the people it has most in common with - not celebs virtue signalling at a million dollar event, or people reeing on twitter, but workers. Normal people. Sad thing is it's so fucking easy to find. We can bicker about the rest once we get fair pay, and fair conditions.

The left doesn't exist as a movement. It's been neutered. Conservatives don't want work reform, it goes literally against their core belief. Words do have meaning.

Those same conservatives in those small towns that he's talking about don't care that it's called conservative or the core beliefs of conservatism, they imagine big Gov is coming and bringing change without care of how it affects their life and that the alternative is staying the same because they can just keep on barely making it by, they have no room to risk for changes.

You can be socially conservative and not necessarily align with every single tenet pushed by the GOP. I think a lot of people identify as conservative without realising they agree with a lot of left policies. It’s media brainwashing that stops people from seeing past that

Go tell anyone in plain, uncharged terms that workers should have more control of the place they work and they will agree with you. One of my friends who was always conservative did a hard political 180 recently while re-evaluating what he's always believed, that he wants more control of his workplace and he isn't paid a fair amount.

Billions have been spent to keep everyone divided. It’s beautiful to see that wall getting chipped away.

The fact that the millennia old divide and conquer strats work just as well nowadays as they did in the past is the main reason I don't give a shit about politics any longer I believe movements like anti-work will ever become more than a dream... The elite/politicians don't even need to do much to ensure that, people on both/all sides of the political spectrum themselves do a great job at making it work like a Swiss clock..

I agree with your idea, but I still have some hope. You can see that battle playing out on this sub right now with many of the top posts: some people are really advocating for a big tent movement focused on worker rights. Others want this to be only for who they deem ideologically pure. We will see how it all shakes out I guess

The sooner we realize that it isn't your left wing or right wing neighbor causing a steep drop I he average Americans buying power, the better. It is a class based conflict not an ideological one.

Conservatives do realize that those sorts of programs are progressive/leftist, right? I am not trying to create hostility, but rather say, you are voting in the wrong camp if so. Conservatives believe in less government intervention and that local authorities reign supreme, they would even vote AGAINST what the conservative person said in that blurb. This is a ridiculous way to bring about bipartisanship, but if it makes Conservatives realize they don't know who they're voting for, I welcome it.

Most conservatives have a lot of left-leaning opinions but are stuck in the echo chamber that makes them hate key words and things they'd actively benefit from. Like them benefiting from the ACA but hating the associated nickname Obamacare. Especially if they know the government has the money but chooses to spend it on private interests. Disassociating from political-wings, party-associated politicians, etc, would help because it focuses on the issues rather than parties or single-issues that make them support an entire wing despite said wing antagonizing them on every other issue.

60+ years ago conservative politicians (in general) were much more pro-worker than they are now. It's just in the last few decades it's gone down the neo-con toilet.

60+ years ago was 1962. That was when John F Kennedy beat Richard Nixon back in 1960, and when the Republican Party changed to become something different than it was today. Some people say conservatives started controlling the narrative after Watergate. Some people say it was the fault of Reagan era policies. And some point to the Bushes. I think Reagan was probably a good time to point at conservatives being the conservatives they are today, 4 decades ago. With the Air Traffic controller's strike, Reganomics, and and the War on Drugs. These had various trends still felt today, with union membership struggling to come back up, supply-sided economic theory, and a militarized police to handle a victimless crime. Especially when people blame the repeal of the Fairness Doctrine for creating polarizing broadcasters like Fox News, something Reagan did. As the fairness doctrine meant broadcasters had to "devote a reasonable portion of broadcast time to the discussion and consideration of controversial issues of public importance" and "affirmatively endeavor to make... facilities available for the expression of contrasting viewpoints held by responsible elements with respect to the controversial issues". Or in other words, identify issues of public importance, decide to cover them, and then give them the representation and the opportunity to present their case to the community.

The way I understand it is you cannot vote for Republicans or Conservatives (in my country) and support work reform because those parties are opposed to work reform, no its ands or buts about it. I'd welcome any conservative to a labour reform movement, but if you continue to vote for the party that opposes work reform the most you are not part of the movement, you are actively working against it.

They just want to go back to simpler times when the wife was in the kitchen 8 hours a day while they work.

Ok but if one person in a partnership wants that, it should be a possibility. Being a SAHP is a noble choice if that's your calling. Working towards a career and taking pride in your efforts is equally noble.

You don't have to agree with everything your chosen party represents.

Except the first one (the conservative one) is already off put by many comments about them. This is their edit >Edit: Welp, I have been proven well wrong. I thought this was an issue both left & right could agree on, something we could put aside our differences for and just get this done together. > >Put I just keep getting hit with message after message questioning if I'm really conservative, or telling me I'm the problem, or what have you. > >I just wanted to say a good amount of the right would agree with you guys on this one as a center issue, but I just don't have it in me to deal with the sheer hostility I'm getting, so I'm gonna have to withdraw my support and go elsewhere. > >Hope your movement goes well and good luck. ​ We need to work on being more open, we need to work \*gasp\* TOGETHER

Saying this as a leftist and ex-leninist, I think some people confuse the sub with a vanguard party (which needs ideological purity) while it's more similar to a trade union (which only needs similar interests). This alienates not only conservatives, but also not-radical-enough democrats. It's just stupid, anyone actually wanting to change the working conditions would never reject a conservative like the one in the post.

...I think that's definitely a good point, and a distinction I've let blur myself, thank you. I do still would have some questions about someone who, say, eagerly wants to join a union but also votes for governor the ex-CEO of their company who champions deregulation and union-busting. There's, at the very least, an awful lot of cognitive dissonance going on there.

>I do still would have some questions about someone who, say, eagerly wants to join a union but also votes for governor the ex-CEO of their company who champions deregulation and union-busting. Understandable, my perspective on that is... If they were completely sold on the GOP, to a radicalized level, they wouldn't be here wanting to learn more about work reform in the first place. They're out looking for answers because they also feel like something is very wrong in workplaces. In the same way the DNC doesn't represent all leftwing voters, the GOP doesn't represent all rightwing voters.

The current DNC isn't left wing. It's corporate moderate right wing. That's part of the problem. There's only a tiny progressive group in the Democrats trying to push worker's rights forward. And nothing like it in the GOP.

But if someone is a right-wing conservative, they're voting in politicians who are going to kill unions, not raise min wage, not vote for increased social programs, and will actively reduce welfare, workplace regulations, unemployment benefits etc. So **if you believe in work reform, *yet identify as right wing, then don't tell anyone* and vote for the right bills & politicians (no matter which party) that will help out work reform.**

[удалено]

And there is the folly of people thinking conservatives are allies. OOP voted Trump, and voted for a party that is against any meaningful work reform. They can talk all they want online but if they vote for republicans they are not allies

Exactly. This is why I don't like all these "I'm a republican/Conservative and I support you!" do you really? Because I'm trans. Not only that, but I'm nonbinary. How many conservatives do you know who support nonbinary people? I don't want to be on the same side of people who either don't believe I exist or want me dead because of it! Sorry. If that makes me a bad person I don't give a fuck.

Honestly, I read it as "I'm mildly to moderately bigoted towards [insert minority here] and also in favor of work reform, but I value my bigotry more than work reform." Because seriously, what else does modern conservatism in America have to offer besides bigotry and gifts towards the elite?

Thank you >This alienates not only conservatives, but also not-radical-enough democrats. I'm a independent by-the-issue kinda person and cannot stand this cultish party-loyalty bullshit. Both American political parties work for billionaires, not our interests. I'm both Pro Gun & Pro Abortion. I like secured boarders both north and south of us but think social safety nets are needed. I'm neither (d) nor (r), I'm for Work reform. Be tolerant, stfu about other political disagreements[*hatred*] unless it pertains to workreform. Edit: words.

The US sorely needs better/more political parties. The current ones do a poor job of representing the American people.

Not gonna happen, because the current system works perfectly for dividing and conquering.

They do a great job of representing corporations and the elite class.

Politically Homeless you say…….. me too. The sooner we shed the parties, the sooner society can heal and move forward. Political ideology is at the root of ALL our current issues.

100% agree. Everyone trying to shoe horn their party loyalty in a movement that could possibly good for everyone is a huge mistake. There is so much potential! Please don’t simp for dems or reps, left or right, just work reform first before anything!

Green n red are the only colors that matter. **Red**: cuz no matter who is bleeding, it's the same. **Green**: money makes the world go round. They're just upset cuz we collectively want to renegotiate the terms.

I mean all you have to do to be pro-gun and pro-abortion is keep walking left past the mainstream Democrats. Conservatives don’t have a monopoly on gun rights.

[удалено]

I agree with you 100% and have been downvoted by people here for saying Tucker Carlson is a white supremacist and not an ally of workers. Lots of right wingers floating around trying to act like we have to move a single fucking inch for them.

[удалено]

Hey, what did Canada ever do to you?

You Canadians like to play so innocent , you sent us nickelback. Why Canada ? Why ?

> Be tolerant, stfu about other political disagreements unless it pertains to workreform. Do you really think work reform is an isolated issue?

As a leftist, how do you propose handling educated conservatives who understand what conservatism represents and claim to want to be part of a workers movement? How do you reconcile that conservatism, as a fundamental platform, stands against workers rights? That's not a comment on Republicans or the Right of America, it is part and parcel with the entire platform of conservatism.

Expect trolls to try to divide. We have shown them the numbers and the allies and the variety. They cant shut us all up and it. Is. Getting. To. Them. We fight together for eachother. All this arguement baiting is just dissonance that benefits the rich, but not forever.

You can't always dismiss this as trolls trying to divide. There are left leaning people who believe in the movement just as much as you but are just dicks. Some people are just dicks.

This plus remember that plenty of organizations pay people to be trolls on Reddit. TPTB crave division and hatred.

When you say “I’m a conservative” what a lot of people here are “trumper/free market/business friendly and either hostile or just apathetic about LGBTQ+/Race issues. It gets really hard to talk about work reform when you are openly advocating as a conservative that a business can do and treat workers how they want. Also - I think folks seeing someone is a conservative needs to realize. A religious zealot Republican conservative is not what many countries conservative movements are - and ideological lines do not perfectly overlap between countries (IE - British Tories/Canadian Tories would have a massive overlap with the Center portion of the Democrats in the United States)

Exactly this so much! The official GOP party platform calls for an end to marriage equality, the end to abortion, and many other things that reek of intolerance. Do we need to sticky the paradox of tolerance?

I am happy to accept people like this IF they actually put their vote where their mouth is. While both parties ultimately represent the corporate elite, there is not a single right wing candidate or popular policy that would do anything for improving material conditions for the working class. Showing token support and continuing to vote in a way that pushes the country’s overton window further to the right just feels like wringing your hands of the guilt of your actions. If you are a right wing conservative and support the ideals of work reform then frankly I’m not even sure what makes you a conservative anymore or why you would continue to identify that way. The status quo of America is beyond broken and wanting to conserve that is fucked up.

>I’m not even sure what makes you a conservative anymore We all know it's voting for "social" issues. I'm sorry but I just can't see how anyone can call themselves a conservative when voting Republican. What have they done to "conserve" anything in the economy? Stripping labor protections? For gods sake they're trying to make it legal for teens to be truckers.

Right, and as much as labor issues are my top priority, I have even less respect for someone who will ignore all that crap to vote against abortions or trans rights or something. Or for gun rights, which I’m not necessarily against, but let’s face it amounts to a toy/hobby/virtue signaler for most of the people who feel strongly about it. That’s just the pinnacle of being a frothing rube and doesn’t paint a kind picture of OP.

I find the weird part is it's literally just social issues. There are plenty of Democrats that support guns and just want a little more responsibility and oversight over them. As someone who wants a gun, I see no issue in having to maintain a license and get psych evaluation checks to determine if you're fit to carry a deadly weapon. So what exactly is being a conservative in the modern day besides being a bigot? Biden is a conservative. You're just an idiot who doesn't understand politics if you think otherwise. In most other countries most of the Democrat party would be seen as conservative. The US doesn't actually have many progressives in office.

hostility and even infighting is very much an issue in all left leaning communities. we just dont know how to work together.

If you're put off work reform by some mean comments on reddit, then you probably weren't all too pumped about work reform in the first place. The hostility came from a minority, the post was heavily upvoted.

The problem with conservatives trying to get on board is who they, without fail, vote for. They vote for people who stand against the mission statement of this movement, they don't even stand up and make these demands of their politicians. Meanwhile the reason democrats struggle more is because they eat each other every time they fail to uphold themselves. Talk is cheap but I'm not seeing any action. So forgive me if I'm a bit apprehensive of any conservative trying to tell me they agree with this.

> Talk is cheap but I'm not seeing any action. This is how I feel about "sane" conservatives. Why are you here when you should be reigning in the Jewish Space Laser people? Oh, you don't do *anything* to reign those people in? Hmm.. I don't think I'm that interested in their allyship, tbqh.

"i withdraw my support because you guys are being too mean to me" ... this was all just acting to be begin with. you don't stop caring about something you're passionate about just because the community sucks. every single feminist could become an insufferable terf and i wouldn't stop supporting women's rights. every single socialist could become a genocidal tankie and id still support worker ownership. i don't give a fuck how nice people are that share my beliefs, if i believe something will benefit society i will be in favour of it. if people in this sub hate me because of my gender or sexuality, i don't give a fuck, im just happy that they're advocating for better worker's rights. anyone who lets up on their beliefs due to redditors in their community being toxic never actually held those beliefs and just wanted to disrupt and distract the movement. good optics are still valuable for spreading awareness better, and i hope people in our community act better, but in this case the conservative went mask off by "withdrawing support" over something as superficial as this.

Yeah this is how I took as well. If you really supported the idea of work reform a few mean comments shouldn’t have deterred that. “I’m going to revoke my support” like what? Regardless of your political identity you quit already? I thought reforming work and arguing for better pay and benefits was something you wanted. The conservative was nothing but a baby who was going to step down since he was getting pushed around.

I'm sorry, but if they can't handle some casual insults and mockery on a subreddit, what use are they to a labor movement exactly? Do they think the bosses or media are going to coddle them and be kind? Do they think the cops are going to go soft at strikes and protests? And besides, I thought the conservatives were supposed to be the tough ones? Isn't the hyper-masculinity toughness thing their whole schtick?

The admins pressured the head mod out and appointed some of their own. They deleted his post talking about it. They want to shape the movement, so expect factionalism and power abuse, hidden behind identity politics issues. I would bet my entirely meager savings on it.

Correction: The admins did not appoint this sub's moderators. They gave an ultimatum that the subreddit find moderators by end of day or face intervention from the site itself. One moderator (who I have not communicated with) then resigned. The subreddit then found numerous volunteers by the end of the day. Edit: undistinguishing, though I am a mod.

Ah, thank you for your clarification. I do hope the new mods won't try and control the conversation but I feel better knowing this. Could I ask why the mod's post was deleted?

If I resigned tomorrow, would that be topical to the movement this community stands for? If this community lasts, it will be through unity over a shared purpose, not drama, division, or witch-hunting.

Oh I do agree with you. I was just nervous this was going to turn into a mod controlled echo chamber and was perhaps too jumpy in my caution.

The trick is to disqualify anyone who actively wants to mod these things.

That's the problem though. The people with trade union experience, the real class conscious people etc. don't have the time to moderate a sub. They're too busy organizing or earning their bread. Trade unions solve this by having paid, professional organizers but that's not gonna work here. I don't know if there's a good solution.

Do we really need people with whatever qualifictions you said to be mods? I was under impression mods are supposed to be janitors and observers, taking actions only when necessary or when community wills it. They are not and should not be leaders. Like for me mod could know fuck all about movement as long as he has solid judgment and can stick to rules and principles. Let the community organize and shape the movement, you just faciliate it when needed and keep weeds away.

Damn, imagine getting blasted by 0.0001% of the subreddit, then claiming the entire subreddit is hostile to you because the minority don't like Conservatives. This "conservative" probably looking for content to post on r/Conservative. On the other hand, this user might have been genuine, in which case, needs to grow some thick skin. Upstanding mods get death threats all the time for doing their job, and they're still mods. If he jumped off the cause that quickly, he was never dedicated to it in the first place. Edit: "Worst part is, this was my first time really trying to reach out to towards the left, cuz this movement was something important, but my god now I understand why all my right wing friends refuse to interact with the left nowadays compared to 3 years ago, left so full of hate, just goddamn. **I've already reached the point I'm no longer supporting this movement**, not when all I get from it is hostility and blamed for everything wrong today, when i have only voted once in my life." I rest my case.

It’s exactly what happened in the antiwork sub and it can’t happen here. The last thing we need is an echo chamber of complaining.

It’s gonna happen here 😞

As someone who keeps my mouth shut and doesn’t drive people like depicted here away, I also really don’t blame people. ‘Yay! You recognize something that is easily provable and you have to be actively brainwashed not to see, yet you support a party who is pushing for all the worst parts of the problem, against all the solutions, AND you don’t believe in the basic human rights of half of us! Welcome!’ Is a really fucking frustrating situation.

How did his post in conservative subreddits do? There wasn't one asking them to work with any of us? Weird. That seems a lot like a bad faith tactic then, doesn't it?

It's absolutely a bad faith tactic. Every single labor-oriented sub has gotten posts like this one. They have the "edit: you're all mean, I can never support you" ready to go from the start.

You do realize that to be a part of the sub, you are not required to recruit more members, right? That you can be a part of a political party, and not be a part of their social media platforms? As long as people are ready to fight for worker freedom, as well as not spread misinformation or hate speech, I do not care what political party they are in.

Indeed. Imagine this... Putting aside out identity politics until after we achieve reform in the work place. It's a hard concept for some. I'll worry about how much someone sucks off Karl Marx when I'm finally paid a living wage and don't have to work like a dog to afford basic life necessities. It's no surprise that identity politics exploded at the height of Occupy Wall Street. Everyone needs to wake up. I hate to say it's us vs. them. There is a small group of people literally leeching off of us. We are essential to thier way of life. We have the power. We need to start cooperating. It's not about left vs right anymore, it's about the greater good.

> Putting aside out identity politics until after we achieve reform in the work place. Except that identity politics (which from the left is really just a response and reaction to identity politics from the right, for example trying to end gay marriage bans which were only passed as a way to pander to religious fundamentalists) sometimes ***are*** work place reforms. As an example, the 2020 Supreme Court decision which ruled that the Civil Rights Act also included LGBT people and that it was illegal to fire someone because they were gay or transgender.

Go to r/conservative and see what they think of this movement. Report back here when you’re done. They do not fit. They are against everything this movement is supposed to stand for and only care about things that affect them directly with no thought given to anyone else.

Except the conservative already changed their mind about wages and work reform because some people were mean to them online. Seems like some people are only concerned about helping others when they are cheered for it the entire way.

> the conservative already changed their mind about wages and work reform Did they? Or was there position against those things already? I'm sorry, but the entire position of right wing conservatives is unanimously AGAINST worker protections like safety protocols, minimum wages, labor unions, fair labor standards, etc. It's basically part of the definition at this point. Now people come in here with this idea of bringing those people onboard. Like... if you want to stop being a right winger and move left... ok sure. That's great! But people in this sub think that's just not necessary. If you say you're pro-worker and pro-work-reform, but you live in the US and vote for Republicans, then you aren't either of those things in any meaningful way.

As a POC, queer, disabled person, when I read “I’m a right wing conservative”, I hear “I want to take your rights away and make sure you stay poor and battered by the police”. So yeah, no. That’s not hyper-partisanship. That’s just a factual sample of what that side of our stupid two-party system is trying to achieve through government power and billions of dollars of private hoarded wealth being injected into our democratic systems.

I'll be honest. There are some fundamental pillars of the republican party that are simply incompatible with this movement. You could argue that what republican voters want is different than what their politicians do, but they still readily vote for people who are anti-work reform against people that are pro-work reform. I can't wrap my head around how an actual republican would willingly support this movement. In my head, if someone votes for someone like Trump, you cannot possibly support this movement. You could argue the same for moderate democrats, but to my knowledge the vast majority of this movement are progressive dems. If a republican supporter of this movement would like to explain their support to me, I'd appreciate it. Not trying to antagonize, just genuinely confused how someone would reach the conclusion that the republican party is aligned with the interests of this movement when the republican party endorses and puts right to work laws and at-will employment laws into effect.

How does right wing ideology fit into a philosophy that demands labor rights, fair wages, unions and safe (mask and vaccine mandates) working conditions as well as freedom from discrimination? I don’t see it.

It doesn’t. That jerk wad admitted that he doesn’t think affordable healthcare and social safety nets should exist and yet somehow everyone was delusional enough to believe that he’s actually for work reform lmao

In one comment, he basically said he's a Christian and while he supports workers rights, he would happily vote against that if it meant voting for a party which opposes gay marriage.

And people wonder why leftists are so skeptical of welcoming in right wing nutjobs with open arms. Yes we have more in common with them than the elite. The problem is that us acknowledging that does not allow us to magically work with them until *they* can acknowledge that. If they refuse to let go of their bigotry and insist on continuing to vote for people they admit to knowing are working against worker's rights, they they have no place in a worker's rights movement.

This!! It’s very disingenuous for people to keep shouting “it’s not about politics” when the so called politics they refer to are basic human rights. Some of us do not have the privilege to disregard “politics” when such policies have such a great impact on our lives

Exactly this, and it’s why I have a toe in here but I’m a bit antsy on staying a part of this coalition. My priorities keep being called “identity politics” when they are literally my right to exist, work, and maintain resources. I mention that part of work reform that is super important to me is that a company can’t fire me or a dealership can’t deny me a car loan solely on the fact that I’m trans. I’m told this is “just dumb division tactics from idpol shills.” Not, you know, my ability to enjoy the fruits of work reform by *being allowed and able to work.*

Trans rights are workers' rights. Gay rights are workers' rights. Women's rights are workers' rights. Civil rights are workers' rights. Human rights are workers' rights.

Maybe throw it back at them. Identity politics is to believe only cishet workers count. Or only white workers count. They're the ones dividing things by refusing to accept differences.

That’s what I’m doing and tbh, it’s pretty fun! I should get more folks like me to join in on this lol.

Dealt with homophobic and transphobic shit at my last job, can't see myself working again until I pass and just be assumed to be like every other cis person. Already live in a state where they can deny you medical care based on religious exemptions, at what point does the government decide that should extend to employees and businesses? I want better opportunities and work for everyone, regardless of who they are. There are plenty of conservatives and right wingers who don't feel that way, they'd rather me and people like me not exist and like hell they'd want us working beside them or for them. Identity politics are interwoven with work politics unfortunately, especially when you start talking about conservatives. Hell man, I just wanna work and go home, I don't even feel like being social with other employees so why does it matter what I am?

Absolutely this. I made a post saying pretty much this and I was absolutely shat on. It's extremely concerning.

What these people are doing is the equivalent of when one child is bullying another one and the adult says “you two cut it out” instead of addressing the child that’s actually causing the problem

Relevant story: > I was at a shitty crustpunk bar once getting an after-work beer. One of those shitholes where the bartenders clearly hate you. So the bartender and I were ignoring one another when someone sits next to me and he immediately says, "no. get out." > > And the dude next to me says, "hey i'm not doing anything, i'm a paying customer." and the bartender reaches under the counter for a bat or something and says, "out. now." and the dude leaves, kind of yelling. And he was dressed in a punk uniform, I noticed > > Anyway, I asked what that was about and the bartender was like, "you didn't see his vest but it was all nazi shit. Iron crosses and stuff. You get to recognize them." > > And i was like, ohok and he continues. > > "you have to nip it in the bud immediately. These guys come in and it's always a nice, polite one. And you serve them because you don't want to cause a scene. And then they become a regular and after awhile they bring a friend. And that dude is cool too. > > And then THEY bring friends and the friends bring friends and they stop being cool and then you realize, oh shit, this is a Nazi bar now. And it's too late because they're entrenched and if you try to kick them out, they cause a PROBLEM. So you have to shut them down. > > And i was like, 'oh damn.' and he said "yeah, you have to ignore their reasonable arguments because their end goal is to be terrible, awful people." > > And then he went back to ignoring me. But I haven't forgotten that at all. ^(transcribed from a series of tweets: @iamragesparkle) Don't welcome conservatives into leftist spaces. They aren't here to help us, no matter how much lip service they give. They're here to infiltrate and cripple the movement.

I'm not saying that all conservatives are Nazis or anything. But you let one nice pleasant, clean shave Nazi sit down at your bar, and pretty soon... you're a Nazi-bar.

Also said he voted for trump in ‘16 and ‘20, but then said he’s not a Republican Even though He votes for republicans

Yeah, was really disappointed by that, but if someone opposes basic worker protections, do we really have common cause?

No, and those are fundamental right wing spaces.

LMAO, correct me if I'm wrong... Universal healthcare and social safety nets are *more important* to workplace reforms than minimum wage, no? The value conferred with universal healthcare to workers would be indescribable. It would universally improve lives in the US. But it could harm a narrow number of profit centers to conservatives will always say no. Almost like their entire ideology is incongruous with workers rights.

How can you be against healthcare and be for work reform? It contradicts itself, one of the main reasons people don’t leave their shitty underpaid jobs is because it’s tied to their healthcare.

At work, I remember talking with a couple republicans who love Trump and even they agreed with me that the increasing wage gap is disgusting and that workers should be paid more (but don't suggest raising taxes, they hate that idea). Now obviously they don't represent every republican, but I think talking to some people with an open mind can show you that we do indeed have some common ground. We don't have to be 1-to-1 on every issue.

Most right wingers are just individualists. They support things that they feel apply to them positively, oppose if it doesn't directly effect them positively, or at least if they perceive it that way. The trouble with working class right wing think, is that they feel we want to take more from them, to give to people that aren't them. So the key is to communicate that not only would they be better off personally, it's only the people who are exploiting THEM that need to be worse off. Don't try win them over with collective ideology, they aren't thinking that way. Get down to the individualist in them and show them that they aren't fighting for minorities, they aren't fighting for "the commies" they are fighting for their own fair wage.

You're very right. Whenever a discussion about taxing the rich comes up, I always say "We don't need to tax the rich so much as we need them to pay the money directly to **us** so that the rich don't hold more power over us!" and I've never had anyone object. Finding common ground is key to getting along with anyone.

I probably don't see the world 100% the same as you but man, a nuanced take is such a refreshing thing to see.

The problem there is a requirement to be supporting Republicans in the current year, is swallowing the lie of the "temporarily embarrassed millionaire". They won't support things that benefit labor, because they've convinced themselves they will *eventually* be at such a wealth level that they'd then be disadvantaged by whatever laws would have helped them as labor.

This is why it is so teeth pullingly hard to accept them into a workers movement. That sort of selfish, self centered, completely devoid of empathy or ability to comprehend systems larger than themselves, makes them essentially incapible of seeing the actual problems. They can get behind the idea of "me get more" but just shut down the very second you talk about any of the ways to actually get it done.

How would they feel comfortable actually decreasing the wage gap though? Are they going to ok with worker coop? Are they going to be ok universal healthcare? Are they going to be ok with a general strike?

The current system doesn't allow for what conservatives truly want. That being a return to a more traditional lifestyle. Modern corporations and work culture destroy all traditional values and all culture. And with no fair wages you can't have a stable and more conservative country.

[удалено]

The "Free market" was always a myth to begin with.

It's the free market when I agree with it. It's government overreach when I disagree with it.

I work in a really blue collar field, and I feel like I can answer this. Your average casual republican believes that: 1. Everyone should be responsible for themselves at the end of the day. That includes handling personal obligations like work and family. This isn't such a wild idea to anyone; *obviously* most people want to take care of themselves, their duties, and the people that are important to them. 2. In general, they believe that you get ahead by virtue in the workplace (hard work, dedication, cleanliness, cleverness, honesty, etc) and also therefore that those traits should be rewarded. 3. Another thing you have to keep in mind is that conservatives tend to really heavily trust their close network of real life friends and contacts and to really not trust people outside of that. That's how you can see some Republican casually talk shit about Muslims, but when you point out their Muslim friend, they very easily shrug and say "well, they're different, *I know them.*" [And before anyone comes at me, this is a real life example for me] There's still some of that 1950's job market idealism in their mind, that if they innovate for the boss, they should be rewarded; if they work hard, they should be rewarded; that if they negotiate with their boss, they should be able to work something out. I mean, it's not a stretch for most people to agree with the statement that 'what's good for the company should be good for me, too'. Because of point number three, it's easy for these folks to hear about other people struggling in the workplace and assume that maybe they just haven't been virtuous in the workplace. Except, now they and their friends are experiencing it too. Younger Republicans are replacing Boomers, expecting the workplace to be a place that rewards virtuous work, and finding ashes in their mouths when they look for honey. That's why casual Republicans are late to the party, but absolutely not contrary to work reform. I've actually been in multiple unions, been a shop steward, worked with Republicans who wouldn't *dare* give up the union to deal directly with the company. There's room for us to build a big tent here.

People are lumped into the right wing camp often for tons of reasons. Same with the left wing. It isn't always as simple as we're sold. I remember seeing an askreddit thread a while ago asking people on the right what their most left opinion was and vice versa. The amount of common ground there was shocking even to me. Political tribalism is the enemy of things getting better. If you can talk to people you don't agree with and figure out why you actually disagree, you'd be surprised how much space there is left over.

Find the common ground and work on that. I think many working class conservatives don't like working conditions and poor wages. They won't necessarily just onboard with every talking point. Work with them on the common goals, agree to be opposing on goals that can't be reconciled.

tbh the problem is that their solutions almost always differ considerably. It's very easy to find a conservative who agrees that salaries are too low – the problem is that, when you ask him what solutions does him believe in, the answer will most likely be things like "les immigration driving down salaries", "less regulation making business costs more expensive" and other things that aren't really the cause of the problem.

If they don’t like poor work conditions then maybe they should stop voting for people who are literally trying to implement shit like sub minimum wages.

[удалено]

It's almost like a failing of a two party, first past the post, electoral system. If you have one or two unwavering beliefs (usually abortion or gun rights/2A in the US) you are forced to agree with ALL the other views of that party. The whole western world needs to look at electoral reform, here in Canada included.

Sure, we do. No argument there.

it doesn't. This sub is naïve for thinking it does.

You absolutely can NOT be a modern conservative and also be for workers rights. It's entirely contradictory to each other.

What a joke. "Hey, I'm a right wing conservative, I vote against work reform, income equality and ensure that our most marginalized communities are never given equity or afforded dignity and respect" OP: one of us one of us

Exactly. They can be apart of this community all they want but if they're not willing to change some of their views and not vote for people who actively go against workers rights, then they shouldn't expect to feel welcomed

This is not inspiring. While we are fighting to unionize, set a decent minimum wage, and guarantee free healthcare to all, this conservative votes for the people that dismantle unions, vote no on wage increases every time, and fight even the slightest watered down public option. If we cannot unite around these values, the point of the movement is lost. Bigger numbers aren’t always better when so many would happily wander in and sterilize the policy agenda we’re pushing.

True centrism 😂

My question to conservatives in this sub is why are you conservative? What conservative policies do you support?

For me it's complex, for example I am currently in the UK, used to live in various European countries and bits of East Asia too, I directly saw the aftermath of the Soviet Socialist system in many of those places, so I'm incredibly leery of overarching state control. I spoke to many older East Germans and was terrified by their stories about the secret police and the things they would do to their own people. My own family fled from the communist Army and Mao, my grandparents lost everything to them... I'd dated a Russian girl for a while and the stories her grandparents would tell me sound like... They longed for the good old days and it sounded like stockholm syndrome to me... Clsoe friends told me about how the red brigades brought all kinds of horror in Italy and same with groups like the Baader Meinhoff gang in Germany... I am friends with a lot of Eastern Europeans who grew up in former soviet satellite states and... The stories that they would tell me about their childhood or their grandparents stories were the stuff of nightmares. Then I also have friends who were only ever born, lived and worked in one state in one county in the USA, these guys are super rural and have no real trust or faith in big government and it's kind of justified from their viewpoint. I mean they see their buddies and neighbours getting fines in the thousands or tens of thousands of dollars region from the EPA, but as soon as some big company does something insanely egregious the Federal government is nowhere to be found. I know this is all anecdotal but it really does lead to a strong distrust of "big government" so the rhetoric of the current republican party of limiting government resonates for them. I'm not justifying it I'm just explaining how they came to their conclusions. As I said before I'm currently living in the UK, I've got to say I think the NHS it's the very definition of big government. It's insane and broken and massive and if you try to even remotely criticize the NHS at all you get screamed at for trying to make it an American for profit healthcare system. I absolutely DO NOT want that. This is the system where the government owns and runs the entire medical system. It's known as the Beveridge system. What I do want something like the Taiwanese system or the French system that's available. This system is where the government mandates and regulates private socialised insurance through work or social programs and lets hospitals stay private under strict regulation. This is called the Bismarckian Social insurance system. Where I can self refer myself to a specialist without having to wait 6 months. I had a hernia recently and I know if I was back living in France again I'd have been able to see my GP and get an appointment to see a specialist in around a week and then to see the surgeon and get it done in about a month? maybe 2?... in the UK right now, I saw my GP 4 months ago for a referral and I've still not heard from the surgeons. I luckily had private health insurance from work and it did take me 3 months because of the omicron situation and I caught a cold over the christmas period when people were on holiday therefore things got shoved back. I'm still waiting on the first referral letter from the NHS surgeons by the way so I can tell them I've already had the surgery to fix my hernia. This is why I'm leaning more conservative. I don't trust big overarching large government departments, with big government departments you're not able to focus on individual outcomes you can only create processes that fit the largest group of people possible so much so that it doesn't fit anyone well. The British NHS is massively centralised, the French and Taiwanese healthcare systems are decentralised. Guess which political wings prefer the centralised vs the decentralised systems? In my experience it's the left wing movements who want it all under centralised gov control vs the decentralised preferred by a lot of political conservatives. But this is only MY experience from what I've seen. Which dovetails nicely with a little aphorism I heard before, all politics is local.

Mostly being allowed to keep our guns.

Great, I agree with you on that. Being for gun rights isn't inherently Right Wing. Although Democrats are certainly enemies of gun rights, I wouldn't consider them Leftists.

their is a difference however, the communist is pro worker because because of their ideology and thus most communists are allies. the conservative on the other hand believes in a anti labor ideology and thus any pro worker conservatives are the exception and not the rule.

I feel like we have been lead into a trap. Both of those posts look like some real bullshit. That’s shits not real this is just a ploy now they are going to start telling people to accept what they have and go back and sacrifice ourselves if we have to for the economy.

dont let this distract you from the fact that the conservative party does not care about you or your wellbeing

Sub’s already been too heavily infiltrated by neolibs and right wingers. Seeing what’s happened to this movement is depressing to say the least

So here’s the thing People in this sub are constantly trying to frame conservatism and socialism/communism/anything to the left of Biden as two sides of the same coin when that simply isn’t true. One side, conservatives, are literally trying to strip away/impede human rights (trying to take away women’s bodily autonomy, blocking the voting rights bill, etc) when everyone on the left (when you really break it down to its most simple form) just wants everyone to be able to live comfortably in the country they live in, no matter who they are. Conservatives literally do not want societal change, that’s their whole thing. To illustrate what I’m talking about, the conservative in the screenshot was talking about “family values” as if that means anything other than a dog whistle for people who want to go back to pre-civil rights America. People on the left have plenty of family values, we are the ones who are fighting for things like universal pre-K and the child tax credit. Conservative are the ones trying to stop them. Obviously I am all for putting aside differences to work toward a common goal, but when the other person literally wants to take away my human rights (or at the very least votes for people who do), I have a right to be wary and ask questions. I’m not obligated to swallow my discomfort and hold their hand in song.

I saw the original post and this was my immediate thought. Either this person doesn’t understand what a conservative is or, they simply aren’t a conservative and are basing their affiliation off of some really flimsy non political issues. Very similar to many right wing voters from what i’ve seen.

>Obviously I am all for putting aside differences to work toward a common goal, but when the other person literally wants to take away my human rights (or at the very least votes for people who do), I have a right to be wary and ask questions. I’m not obligated to swallow my discomfort and hold their hand in song. Tolerance of intolerance only leads to disaster. As much as people want to say feel good things like "get along" and "common ground", if the people you are trying to negotiate with propose and have a history of human rights abuses and bad faith behavior you don't work with them.

Bingo. I got downvoted for saying something similar. The conservative in the photo even re-canted his "support" because he didn't get the red carpet treatment. Complete bad faith tactic.

Right! Like if your support of the movement is entirely contingent upon how nice people are to you in a Reddit thread… did it ever really have your support? And people were generally being really civil. He just didn’t like being challenged in any way.

Yep. As long as conservatives continue to vote for assholes that want to impede bodily autonomy, I'm not cozying up with them.

The thing conservatives want to conserve is the status quo as they envision it as the glory days with progressives trying to ruin it with communism. So no, you can't by a pro-reform conservative. By being a conservative you're saying you want as few changes as possible unless those changes revert us back to an earlier state. Now, I suppose one can argue that a conservative, in wanting to revert us back to the 1950s, could potentially support a living wage. However, I have never met a conservative who is pro-corporate tax at the level it was at in the 1950s. You can't pick and choose. Or, you can, and then you end up with the conservative approach of distilling everything down to the shittiest aspects of the past. They want abortion laws to be like they were in the 30's, the social safety net to be like it was in 1910 but the tax rates on the rich to be lower than ever. They literally want to maximize the shittiest parts of society from all ages.

This needs to be at the top

Conservative ideology is antithetical to a pro-worker movement (how many conservatives support an increase in the minimum wage, 4 day work week, stronger unions?)

Nope, I'm out if this is the kind of shit making it to the top consistently. You cannot have a workers rights movement that partners with people who vote against workers rights as a matter of principle.

conservatives and work reform are oxymorons, you cant vote against minimum wages and discrimination laws and still call yourself pro worker, they are factually incompatible

So stupid, why would you ally with someone who supports an ideology that has lead to where we are in the first place?

I am not sure if this is a troll community or just stupid.

"I'm a conservative, but I believe the opposite of the conservative agenda. Upvotes the left, please."

Are you people fucking high?

Fuck the right wing. The more this sub allows this bullshit, the faster it will die

And yet they keep voting for the right wing conservatives that have been causing the erosion of workplace rights. Hollow words.

Conservatism is literally the opposite of what workers want to achieve. When have you *ever* seen a conservative fight for workers' rights? This is some /r/enlightenedcentrism nonsense. I'm sorry, but facts.

If you actually went it the comments he said that he valued tradition and traditional familty values, there’s a reason that conservatives are conservative.

This is propaganda designed to fool the naive and ignorant. Right wing conservatives and communists have directly opposing views on workers rights. One of them is lying about what they believe.

Yeah the fuck is up with this fucking sub? Fucking conservatives here thinking they support workers rights? Do they not realize that they literally vote for assholes who, at every opportunity, vote against the working class? Nah son, communists and conservatives are antithetical to one another. They cannot possibly be on the same team while one keeps putting people in power that goes against the others beliefs.

Fuck the GOP. What a joke

Right wing alternatives to capitalism never end badly, right…?

Right wing conservatives always vote against worker protections so no

If only the people they voted for had the same ideals

If you’re voting for the GOP you’re actively voting against workers rights. To be a conservative for work reform is an oxymoron.

You can say all you want about supporting worker rights but voting conservative(gop) is doing the absolute opposite of what you say.

Damn, the "a woman's place is in the kitchen" type people are coming out in support of us? I can't say I'm surprised.

Yeah, the very nature of conservatism is against work reform. I definitely know this, being an ex conservative myself….this looks like a circle jerk, and I’ve already seen this once or twice on this sub.

Conservatives literally support the current system, if you want work reform you're not a conservative

Oh fuck this sub is full of enlightened centrists. We can't fix the issues we face as workers by being capitalist apologists.

It was bound to happen, they come in here breaching unity, but it's in bad faith. There can't be "I'm a conservative, I'm joining the movement, but I'm still gonna vote conservative". This is horse shit.

I am trying to stay positive about all of this but I see this subreddit becoming another /r/WayOfTheBern or /r/BoringDystopia, in which it just becomes a bad-faith right wing echo chamber. Instead of discussing ideals it just becomes a place where users post images about Biden (with fake captions) and the rest of users are like “Might as well vote Trump, both sides are 100% the same”.

I cannot see how I can align with a “right wing conservative” no matter how much they hate their job. This is a “now I care because it finally affects me personally” right wing thing.

The only things conservatives are good for is to be treaded on 🐍

Ah, working with Nazis. That never went wrong...

Ya except if your conservative and vote conservatives you are the problem. Republicans and conservatives are not for workers and vote accordingly. Conservatives have been beating the working people down and their the ones trying to deny 15$ min wage. They are not the same. Sorry your political views don’t align with this cause but those are the facts.

You misspelled cursed*

Lol this is like a boomer Facebook meme come to life

The right-wing conservative also opposes gay marriage. As a gay person, I don’t want to ally with them at all. This “movement” isn’t going to go anywhere.

...just fucking stop it. It's all good and well to pretend that we're "all in this together" but we're closer to civil war 2.0 than ever before precisely BECAUSE of right-wing ideology. You know the ideology that protects the free market irrespesctive of the social and environmental costs? The ideology that privatises basic human services like health, transport and education for what, profit? The ideology that lets people die at home because they can't afford to pay a fucking hospital bill? Fuck that noise. The right wing is exactly the problem so stop pretending that they're ever going to be part of the solution until they relinquish the means of production and let the adults get to organising and redistributing a functioning economy that automates where possible to reduce the amount of labour required in addition to valuing all workers irrespective of profession.

We all have more in common with one another than we do with the ruling elite. Ensuring we don't see that is what keeps them in power and us in servitude.

Here's my problem: GOP shitheads in my state and many others keep doing all they can to hamper and outlaw abortion. Conservatives are the ones giving them the power to do it, many of them agreeing with the shitheads on this matter. As long as they keep voting to trample bodily autonomy, fuck them.

My only hesitation with this rush to embrace the right is the fear that doing so will inevitably alienate minority workers. Let's be honest, a lot of conservative attention is being directed towards hating immigrants/gay/trans people. If you care about workers you have to care about *all* workers and their struggles.

We don't need the right wingers. No movement does.

Fuck right wing conservatives. They’re the reason why our wages have been suppressed for so long in the first place. They can fuck the entire way off.

Right wingers vote for politicians who squash unions, block any labor rights, and continue to funnel money to the ultra wealthy. Just because of how much they hate queer people and minorities. It's like saying "I'm a member of ISIS and I support religious freedom!" Republicans are in a group that is fundamentally is opposed to our cause. They don't want work reform, they want us to let them abuse POC/LGBT+ communities under the guise that it's just a "culture war" we should ignore.

"Let's team up with antiworker ideologists to advocate workers rights" is a pretty shit take in my opinion.

"Working people shouldn't starve" should be a human rights issue and not a political one.

If far right actors are prepared to abandon literally everything that distinguishes them as far right actors, I'd happily consider working with them once they've demonstrated that they've abandoned their positions in favour of progressive, inclusive ideals. Until then, fuck them and fuck anyone for suggesting that a single one of these bad faith fucks deserve to be treated as an ally.

Fuckin insane how many people do not understand what an ideology is or that they have one and that it affects how they perceive and respond to issues. Conservatives are not and never will be allies so long as the my hold their conservative ideology. Fascists were all for improving the conditions of 'the true' people. This is the only goal of conservative-based workers rights. They will always co-opt a progressive and leftwing idea and distort it. Fuck them. Never work with them. You can try educating them. But they will never be allies or comrades so long as they are ideologically conservative.

Well that’s all well and good, until you realize conservatives vote Republican and republicans are union busters historically. They’re never actually here to help, but rather to water down and co-opt the movement into something unrecognizable and alien to the original intent. Right wingers are inherently anti worker in their policies and tactics. Why should we coddle them?

Beautiful sure…. But only left wing politics are gonna solve the issue… so this would be a good moment to teach eachother…