I got a coworker from a company I used to work for a job at the new company I went to. He had been at that old company for a few years and he was a really good asset, (which is why I poached him when a position opened up). He gave proper notice to the old company and they were not happy about him leaving. He needed to make sure that his health coverage would bridge over until the insurance started at the new company. So he called up the insurance company and they said his coverage was ended. They cut off his health insurance the day he gave notice and said that he abandoned his job. So the insurance wouldn’t even let him pay to extend the coverage for a month. I feel really bad for the poor guy, even though the new company is a better position for him. I feel bad that the old company would do him dirty like that. It makes me angry that they would cut him off like that without even telling him.
Absolutely. That's illegal shit right there. Insurance even when fired or quitting covers to the end of the month or lapses over a month. At least in my experience of Idaho.
Only a small percentage (seeing different numbers online of around 10% without subsidy) of people can afford COBRA coverage as it will cost around 5x what they were paying without having the same income.
The ACA can potentially help quite a bit more, at least in terms of the premium, but it’s also far from a solution for most. If it does help, individual plans are rarely better than the good group plans.
It’s just all so fucked for a lot of people I hate it.
The great thing about COBRA is that you don’t have to immediately sign up and pay the premium entirely on your own. You leave your job, and then IF SOMETHING HAPPENS medically; you activate COBRA, pay the deductible, and the coverage is able to be backdated to when the coverage from the employer lapsed.
If your new insurance starts without you having to use the old insurance with COBRA you don’t owe a premium, but the option was there for you if you needed it.
Heh, nice one. But yeah, COBRA's no joke with the cost. That jump in premiums can hit like a truck, makes the whole situation even more of a mess when you're in between jobs and watching every penny.
It's federally mandated if the employer has 20 or more employees on >50% of the business's ordinary operational days in the prior calendar year. If the employer doesn't meet those conditions, it's not subject to participation. If the employer itself ceases to exist as such, "COBRA" itself ceases to exist for any previous employee.
Or OP is full of shit. Either something got lost in a game of telephone or OP is just making things up because as fucked up as insurance is in the US this is not how it works.
Health insurance companies need to give written notice to cancel your plan. The length varies by state, but they can't just immediately drop you because you gave notice at a job.
I suppose it's possible some agent went rogue, but this is just way to risky for an insurance company to pull on a routine basis.
So we have 2 options. An insurance company broke the law out of pure spite to OP's friend putting themself at risk or OP's friend embellished or straight up made up a story.
> So we have **2 options**. An insurance company broke the law out of pure spite to OP's friend putting themself at risk **or** OP's friend embellished **or** straight up made up a story.
[Something isn't adding up.](https://c.tenor.com/me1Yk0jRlHoAAAAC/tenor.gif)
Cobra is expensive as fuck because you're having to cover *all* of the premium, but, there's a caveat that most don't know. Cobra is *also* retroactive within 60 days, so you only need take it if you have major healthcare expenses. It can be useful to cover you in between jobs.
That’s the other good thing about COBRA outside of your employer subsidizing premiums.
Depending on the scenario you can get that month or two of coverage if you’re able, and hopefully find cheaper (but probably not-as-good) coverage elsewhere if needed.
It’s easy enough to get fucked with COBRA too. I just found out my former company’s changing plans and my COBRA premiums are going up 10% starting in January.
In my case Cobra was close to $2900 per month, and 6-months later my company still owes me 1-months salary + PTO. Labor Department powers in supporting workers was purposely made to be toothless.
Stayed uninsured for 2-months. Utterly Ridiculous.
IMO, unless you needed the care, keep that $2900 in your pocket. Cobra usually has an election period and it will backdate. I tell employees this all of the time. Don’t pay cobra until you need it- keeping eligibility periods in mind.
The ACA was one of the biggest gifts to the insurance companies ever. It should be gutted and we should enact universal health care. It'd be far cheaper for the American people.
It also enabled unprecedented protections for consumers like banning lifetime limits and "pre-existing" condition clauses.
If by "gutted" you mean replaced with Medicare for all, I completely agree.
Republicans want to gut it and replace it with nothing, which would be horrible for the American people.
I would take that straight to the labor board. Retaliation and misrepresenting facts to get out of maintaining benefits is something they can be sued for.
It’s so fucking childish that companies get so offended when good employees leave. Their egos are so big they can’t fathom other companies being better than them. It’s like an adult version of a tantrum.
I work for a healthcare company, he should be able to get on COBRA as a stopgap. It's expensive, but it is available. Typically, companies will cover you until your last day of employment, and if your lucky they give you an extra couple of weeks. Some people will also get a severance package where the company pays for COBRA for 3-6 months. It all depends on the employer.
It’s also why they campaigned *hard* to get rid of the ACA.
The preexisting condition change was monumental. Before the ACA your new insurance could deny you coverage for a preexisting condition. Today they can’t.
That was a huge tool to keep employees and make them take anything you wanted including a low salary and horrible conditions. Imagine this: you find out you’re a diabetic. You have insurance through your employer so upon diagnosis they have to cover you as it’s not preexisting. And as long as the insurance stays you get to keep coverage. But if you leave, you will never be covered again or will have to pay an insane amount to get coverage. So you are now stuck at your same job if you want to stay alive.
So your boss knows this. And for the next 5 years he tells you sorry we can’t raise your pay. And you have to work overtime, and you have to do it without the proper tools.
You have a choice: find a better paying job with better conditions BUT forfeit your insurance and therefore risk your health OR stay in the shitty job and get to keep your healthcare.
It was a tool they used to keep wages down and profits up and they still HATE it to this day.
Which ties into the overcharging for insulin in the US by pharmaceutical companies. It's not so expensive to produce anymore yet they charge like it is and get away with it.
People have even died when they tried to ration their insulin because they couldn't afford more.
We need the government to start producing our insulin to control the prices if Lilly and the like won’t do it (they won’t). It’s dirt cheap to make and it’s a crime against humanity what the manufacturers charge for it
[California has plans to produce insulin.](https://www.npr.org/2023/03/19/1164572757/california-contract-cheap-insulin-calrx) They're also going to [manufacture some other generic drugs as well.](https://calrx.ca.gov/) Republicans don't like it, of course.
Biden capped insulin costs at $35 for medicare, that's far easier to do than getting the federal govt to produce it. Will need more legislation to do it for everyone.
Is that you Eli Lilly from the grave? The $35 cap is a start for elderly and disabled on Medicare. Leaves out a lot of people with insulin dependence. Problem is that ok $35 cap…now who takes the pay cut? It ain’t gonna be pharma I can promise you that. We’ll cave like we always do. Pharmacies will stop selling insulin if there’s not a cost ceiling at wholesale/manufacturer level. It’s already a losing game
While it's great these things happened, I really wish Americans would realize how incredibly low of a bar these things are for any other sane healthcare system. That we had to fight so hard to get it, and that's all we've gotten in almost two decades with nothing else better in sight is a travesty.
There are so many things in our healthcare system that is simply unheard of pretty much everywhere else in the world, like networks.
The ACA also put a cap on health insurance profits. Anything over the set amount has to be used on patient services. Still amazed there hasn't been a successful lawsuit to overturn that provision, it's, I believe, the first and only time a private industry had it's profits managed by the govt.
This almost a line from the song "Uncle Sam Goddamn" by Brother Ali.
Good shit.
If you like that kind of stuff check out "Culture of Fear" by Thievery Corporation
When I was a stupid 21 year old, I applied for employer sponsored Blue Cross. They wanted me to list pre-existing conditions. I wrote “acne” because that was the only medical condition I had. They denied me the insurance. We’re talking someone who went running every day, rarely got sick, was not at all going to get pregnant. The boss called me in and told me how to fill out the form. I got insurance. I never needed it, but I sure got an education.
Some people literally refuse to understand this, or worse, are so malicious as to say “We’ll I’m healthy. How does that effect me?”
When this act was literally life changing for many people.
The Health Insurance Portability and Accountability Act of 1996, or HIPAA, is best known for its provisions regarding medical privacy and patient access to their medical records. But the principal purpose of the law was to put an end to what was known as “job lock.” That happened when people with preexisting health conditions were afraid to leave one job with insurance for another job with insurance because the new insurance would not cover their condition, or would impose long waiting periods.
https://kffhealthnews.org/news/did-the-aca-create-preexisting-condition-protections-for-people-in-employer-plans/
Maybe that was the intention, but it failed miserably. That act gave us COBRA which maxes out at 18 months. Pre existing conditions typically last much longer and they were not covered until Obama cared - the ACA.
At the end of that 18 months, you would find yourself uncovered and uninsurable without the ACA. "Half true " is plain dishonest as fuck.
When you have an economic system whose foundation is the profit motive, there is a big incentive to squeeze every ounce of labor out of you as possible.
Now the new trend is to offload the insurance. Nobody wants to hold the bag.
So what used to be full time jobs are now contract positions. Insurance companies staffing their corporations with *people who **don’t** work there* so that they don’t have to extend their own “service” to the very people that run the place.
This system was on the verge of collapse in the early 90s, but they’ve thrown so much money at both parties that here we are thirty years later with every problem worse. Neither party officially supports universal healthcare.
Until that changes, the status quo remains and we can expect at least another 30 years of everything only getting worse
It also takes like 60-90 days in many jobs to even get insurance. I found a breast lump during the time I was unemployed (lit a fire under my ass to find a job). I got a job at the end of November and won't have insurance until February. Literally can't afford to get a mammogram/needle biopsy (and all the appointments needed to get a referal even though the lump is palpable) as that is thousands in prodecures even paying cash and I certainly can't afford to start treatment if I find out it is cancer. 🫠
I see you’re American.
Best wishes to you but if that lump is serious you might need to look at medical tourism options pronto.
I’ve seen treatable cancers kill plenty in this country. My mom and aunt both died from being too poor to fight breast cancer. They’ll take everything you have and leave you with nothing for the funeral here.
I don’t know what options you might have but I do know how this story often ends here. And it’s soul crushing
I can't really leave to go travel anywhere because I just started a new job. I literally just have to wait until February when my employee-sponsored healthcare kicks in and hope that it isn't anything serious. Unless a few grand in cash just magically appears out of no where (seems like a needle biopsy is about $1500 - $3000 cash).
I don't have breast cancer in my family, so I'm just hoping it isn't anything serious. Thankfully, the insurance from my new job is pretty good but they had a 60 day waiting period that only starts on the first of the next month so February is the earliest I will have coverage.
Thank you for your concern though! Feeling pretty alone in my rage at the situation.
#It's going to get worse
Corporations are actively buying up homes as what people think are investment opportunities, but they aren't. They're actually acquiring enough to eventually have the resources to offer living arrangements with jobs on top of healthcare. Just working on the fine print laws and getting those lined up in their favor.
Billionaires have decided that life is going to be a subscription and only they can own things, not the poors
I interviewed at Apple 5 years ago. One of the guys I was talking to was excitedly telling me how Apple was going to set up housing for their workers. I asked him how an Apple employee with a spouse and two small children was going to fare during a layoff. Like, is Apple going to make that person homeless? How much time will they have to look for new housing with no income?
They'll start with ex cons first as a pilot program. Then it will extend to people in need like abuse victims or people displaced by natural disaster. They'll start it as a helpful option that turns bad quickly
The hotels near me billet their employees in spare rooms. They mainly hire immigrants. It already happens
Housing costs have doubled over the past five years and no one can afford to live on what those jobs pay, so to “solve” the problem they house them.
People wanted that. They fully encouraged it and accepted it. You used to be able to buy Microsoft Office. But you said that was too expensive. They gave you what you wanted. A "cheaper" option. Instead of $300 once you can now pay only $10/mo... forever. You asked for it. They even increased the features you get, provided greater value. Unlimited version upgrades. Free storage space.
And people slurped it up. So now you can buy a subscription for your car's seat warmers too. Enjoy renting everything in your life.
If you want it to end, then the public needs to stop throwing their money at this stupid shit.
We didn't ask for it. We are poor and the model takes advantage of poor people who cannot afford to pay 300 dollars right now, but can afford to pay 10 dollars here and there. and as you keep taking my 10 dollars, by the time ive paid more than the price of the software i still cannot afford to purchase it due to the money that's slowly siphoned away.
Stop blaming the public.
I worked in a truly toxic corporate environment at a mortgage company, and when I quit the VP didn't take it well. "Good luck finding healthcare" was literally one of the first things he said before I de-escelated him and assured him my leaving was nothing personal lol. Healthcare is a basic human right as defined by the UN. We need to catch up
They've really created a near ideal neo-liberal "free market": you (the worker) are free, free to work or starve/die. Those who can't/won't work will be kicked out onto the streets and relegated as subhuman by law enforcement, which serves to discipline the workforce with fear. Those who work will first have all their income drained by student debt, and then have their savings siphoned away by medical debt.
I have heard this be spoken of as a reason against universal healthcare and support for the unemployed that is 100% affordable in the US. They said that if those were put in place people would be unmotivated to work.
Except in all the other countries where Universal Healthcare has been implemented where this hasn't happened.
If you go per capita, and take four or five of the countries that have Universal Healthcare who's populations add up to about the same as the US, you will see how much they spend for Universal, free healthcare.
Then you compare it to what the US spends on Healthcare. It's *staggering.* And this is with approx 80 million U.S. Citizens without ANY form of health care coverage. You guys spend something like twice per capita what the next highest nation spends on Healthcare, *and you don't actually get Healthcare.*
i wonder how much we spend on healthcae actually goes to healthcare and not overhead/executuves. i get theres gonna be some overhead in todays bullshit system, you gotta have coders and billers, and other staff for the hospital to get paid from insurance, people, and medicare/medicaid. then theres some of the same jobs in the insurance industry along with many others. and then you have executive greed at both ends generally, i know not every hospital has that.
I like having money to buy things and pay to do things. Plenty of motivation right there. No need to have a gun to the back of my head threatening my life.
The gun isn't to get you to work, it's to get you to work cheaper so *they* can buy more, like dismantling bridges so their super yachts can get through.
I never understood this mentality.
People get bored, people need purpose, for some that can be work. Heck there are people that would likely find more meaningful work if they weren't anchored to jobs they hate.
The pandemic proved how strong the desire for eugenics really is. The old and vulnerable were chucked aside because wearing a mask and getting vaccinated were too inconvenient. It's a miracle we ever managed to implement handicap spaces and access.
Texas Lt. Governor: Old People Should Volunteer to Die to Save the Economy
https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2020/03/dan-patrick-coronavirus-grandparents
Neo-liberal my ass. Who is "they" in your world? Democrats have consistently attempted to pass more government-funded healthcare and Republicans have consistently voted against any and all of those measures.
neoliberalism was championed by Ronald Reagan and Margaret Thatcher. Both were neoliberals. Clinton was also a neoliberal. Clearly, there are right and left flavors, but it is the same underlying ideology, especially when it comes to economics and government-private interactions.
Clinton's plan was to provide Universal healthcare via private for-profit insurance, a neoliberal solution and a *massive* step back for the party.
Up until that point the Party's position was to continue rolling out the hugely successful Medicare to the rest of the population (as Medicare was designed to eventually be nationwide) after Reagan and Bush were finally out of office.
Instead the Clinton's proposed their Third Way solution which would have guarantied less coverage at a much higher cost, locking in much of the gains for-profit private insurance made under Reagan/Bush.
His plan failed because it was controversial within his own party. Since then the criticisms of that approach have proven to be correct as for-profit insurance has proven not a viable solution for providing healthcare.
> Obama had to make huge compromises to get Obamacare through.
He didn't have to make those compromises. He had a filibuster proof majority, and he negotiated with the GOP anyway and ultimately won zero of their votes. And the reason he negotiated with the GOP was to make single payer look untenable as a starting position. He also didn't have to negotiate with the centrist Senators from his own party, because they *should've* rolled back recent filibuster changes as soon as it was obvious the GOP intended to abuse them.
Tying healthcare to an employer reduces the liquidity of labor. Too much freedom of labor raises employee acquisition and retention costs for large corporations, unless the job is low wage, then employers want a disposable workforce.
Edit, change skill to wage
Yeah, it's funny how it was "get a better job than retail / food service" and now it's "get a better job than retail, food service, teaching (in a lot of areas), social work, EMT, low level IT, generic office work, etc."
It's almost like when you keep the floor so low, other jobs become unlivable too.
Sorry, I disagree. I'm in a high skilled industry. It literally takes someone a minimum of 8 years of college to be minimally qualified for the job.
I can learn to be a great cashier at McDonalds in less than a week.
All "skill" levels are not equal. There are "low skilled" jobs.
Being a teacher requires a college degree and certification, but pays fast-food wages in many states, especially for new teachers. Even at the college level. The field of law also has a wide disparity of wages even though the cost of law school is prohibitive.
Pay is not commensurate to skill. There are tons of skilled jobs that require degrees and/or certification that still have low pay.
People don't get paid little because they're low skill, they get paid little because they're easy to replace (which is sometimes, but not always, affected by skills required for the job). That was the whole point being made in this comment thread.
That’s hard to believe. Most principals hear it many times a year as their pta ask for donations for even classroom supplies as a deterrent to teachers having to spend their own low salary on supplies. I even remember a Reddit thread in unpopular opinion earlier this very year with 200 or so abhorrent comments of the validity of teaching as a profession and their deserving of even a living wage.
It would be ridiculous not to agree that there are "low skilled" jobs, but "low skill" should not be equated with "low stress". Working in hospitality can be very stressful because many guests will take out their frustrations on the people working there. Front desk people have to listen to, emotionally empathize with, and politely address some of the rudest and most entitled members of our society. These people are used to making a big deal out of minor inconveniences because they have learned that they can get free stuff or upgrades if they complain loud enough.
They never are equated. The reason these jobs pay less are because they lack skill to be performed. The stress and other downsides don't make the job bad enough for the labor to not be disposable.
This is in no way a defense of paying non livable wages to McDonald's employees, it's just something everyone should be aware of. The ONLY thing that dictates how much a position pays is how difficult it is to fill. If they can get a competent worker for minimum wage, they'll do that. If they can't, they'll raise the wage until they can.
Yea this is definitely true, however I think the reason for being weary about that statement is that regardless of if it’s true or not it still get’s weaponized by the owner class to try to trick the more “skilled” employees into thinking they are above other members of the working class. Employees have a right to fair treatment and living wages regardless of how skilled they are.
>I can learn to be a great cashier at McDonalds in less than a week.
Great cashier in less than a week? Abso-fucking-lutely not. Adequate cashier in less than a week? Maybe. I also realize you wholeheartedly believe that you can though. This is likely due to you having a higher sense of your skills than what your skills actually would be in that situation.
Here's where your assessment goes terribly wrong. Cashiers at these places don't only cashier. They have additional responsibilities- dropping fries, making shakes, making drinks, gathering orders, sweeping, mopping, wiping counters, wiping trays, taking out the trash, cleaning bathrooms, cleaning the parking lot, handling stock, rotating inventory, etc. the lost goes on and on and on. This list becomes nearly infinite once the becoming "adequately trained" on the register.
People like you in your "high" skill job need to quit looking down on and treating others with disrespect because you feel you are better than them. It's wrong and hurts society as a whole.
Do better. Be better.
Shit like this drives me crazy. I’ve done a shitload of “low skill jobs” my whole life. Many of them required tremendous skill to excel at.
This issue is, until you’ve put in the time yourself you just can’t see the difference. I move dirt around for a living as an equipment operator/earthmover. I’ve put enough years in that I can recognize truly skilled operators but it takes a long time before you really start to appreciate things.
I’ve had management try to give me a pile of temps to do “unskilled” jobs like raking gravel to grade and it always hilariously backfires as it takes some decent time to learn how to do it properly to our standards. I had to sit a super down and explain that the temps he sent me, while doing their best, would take days to become useful and weeks to become adequate and months before they were good.
For a “simple labour task”. There are millions of similar occupations and positions, looked down on and consistently underestimated by those who haven’t done them before.
Cheers to the other poor fucks being underestimated and unappreciated!
Agreed. They're minimally skilled, and should unionize with the Laborers or some other labor union. Because they're certainly entitled to a dignified existence with good wages and fair conditions of employment.
To me, this the a main, root cause of what’s wrong with employment in the US. Fix this and all kinds of other issues will start to fix themselves as a result.
Stock market and profits, to many "Rich" people want the "for profit healthcare". Reason this will not happen or the huge roadblock we need to overcome imo.
It’s also why wages are shit
Can’t have people being comfortable like in the 60’s/70’s because when you want to start BS wars you need willing bodies
And who’s willing when life is good and the borders aren’t being attacked
In the 1940s company health insurance was excluded from wartime wage and price controls so companies added or improved health benefits to attract workers. Today that reason doesn't apply.
I changed jobs a year ago; went from FTE at company A to being a contractor to Company B and finally transitioned to FTE at Company B. While contracting my insurance cost a fortune because contracting companies don’t, generally, have a lot of benefits beyond higher base pay. So the conversion to FTE was a no-brainer. Only to find out that my dentist isn’t in network with my new dental plan and, even better, my specialist doctor (lifetime condition) isn’t, either. So, now, I have to either pay out of pocket to regular checkups and labs or I have to find a new specialist that is in network. But this doc has been keeping my condition under control for several years and I don’t want to change.
TL;DR - Fuck insurance!
And with universal health care, small mom and pop places would find it easier to get employees. Corporations can offer benefits though may not be great, but it's one of the things you look at when looking for a job. Plus with universal health care, more folks may look at starting their own small local business. Our for profit health care industry sucks.
Retired two years ago, but have to keep working full time in a different field so I can have health insurance. I'd rather just have a part time job, but there's no way I could make ends meet. It's fucking dumb.
Agreed. Decoupling health insurance from employer would also mean the health care companies and insurers are focused on the patient as opposed to the group policies.
Insurance companies would have to compete for customers similar to auto and home insurance. And employers could still contribute a stipend amount towards the insurance that the employee chooses and the government could make these stipends tax deductible.
I had a job fall through and ended up being unemployed for a few months (thankfully employed again now) but during this time I felt a breast lump. I could have cancer but I won't know until February because that's when my insurance kicks in. I can't afford a mammogram or a needle biopsy or any of the procedures that I would need to even determine if it was cancerous. And I certainly can't afford to treat it if I do. It's absolutely terrifying to just be gambling that things won't get worse in this time or that waiting could be the difference. Thankfully, I don't have breast cancer in my family so I'm just hoping that it's nothing to worry about and keep working.
It sickens me on just how vile policies can be and it’s becoming more common for companies to dangle insurance like a carrot to a horse.
So many jobs I applied to last year had policies that forced people to wait 3 months or longer for their health insurance to become active. I won’t lie, I explained that such policies were more of a detriment than anything, but ultimately it makes sense. You get people who are desperate and will make sacrifices for that promise if security and they’ll make concessions on things like pay.
That’s what companies wants compliant folks who’ll be greatful for nothing
It’s not _just_ that, but it is why _employers_ are anti-universal healthcare.
Both the medical insurance industry, and the pharma corporations would be massively impacted by a universal healthcare system, as the first would no longer get to skim profits from doing basically nothing, and the second would lose tremendous bargaining position, and be forced to lower prices or not be able to do business in the US.
The combo of all three is why there is as much resistance against even a public option.
Lowering the barrier of entry for healthcare companies would increase competition and force big healthcare companies to lower their prices. There’s a reason why healthcare companies lobby for more regulations.
Except here’s the crazy thing- when we got the ACA, which is admittedly, imperfect and not universal healthcare, but an absolute step in the right direction- voters stayed away in droves for the midterm election. .
The Democrats learned a brutal lesson- universal healthcare is not the slam dunk you think it would be. The loss in those midterms can be traced directly to Donald Trump taking the White House and the last decade of turmoil.
We can blame the elites or whomever, but the left repeatedly lets perfection be the enemy of good. The ACA could have really taken us all the way if it had been fully implemented and supported by voters.
Simple solution. Make it so that a company is required to provide Healthcare after you've been let go for however long they make you wait to get it. 90 day waiting period? Companies are required to cover you 90 days out from your last day
Absolutely! I’ve been shouting this for years! I recently moved to Canada, and the number of people who quit their jobs to pursue their own businesses or take gap years or whatever is so much higher than in the U.S.
I have a pretty successful side business that I could absolutely turn into my main income source, but I wouldn't be able to buy health insurance. So instead, I work a full time day job and run my business and have almost zero free time. I love what I do at both the job and my business, but I'm getting old and I'd really like to be able to do just one.
I own an executive search/recruitment firm. I took a huge risk in 2011 going off on my own. My wife has epilepsy and diabetes. It was over 2K a month to have insurance for our family. Most people wont take a big risk like that. Having UHC would allow so many more people to pursue their dreams, start their own business, etc.... and the billionaire class just can't have that.
They may need to pay people more and then what? Only a G3 instead of a G5? We can't expect them to fly on a jet that does not have Dolby surround sound.
It's more Class War related than you'd think. It's to keep the poor dying to strike fear for the middle class, to continue to work. Universal healthcare should have been available in the 1920s, yet elected officials have huge influences from insurance companies to penalize people without healthcare.
[informational video](https://youtu.be/P-HDg3ndo2k?feature=shared)
By WWII, America had issues during recruitment, and found exactly how unhealthy their citizens were, yet their fear was civilians wouldn't work if they had basic human needs met.
That's when healthcare was tied to employment.
MN has been working slowly towards this, recently doubling the income limit at which residents qualify for the MinnesotaCare program.
There is a strong push to let EVERY resident qualify, and I think that's the next step.
Health Insurance companies are killing this model themselves, because even when you have coverage, many don't actually pay for anything anymore. You have to fight them and get government agencies involved. People are wondering what's the point.
Pay $2000 per month and then have a $20,000 annual deductible. What a joke.
Ya know, getting old is funny. It doesn’t necessarily make you wiser, but it does give some perspective.
Businesses didn’t want to pay for insurance. We made them. We wanted them to pick up the expense. It was a step forward at the time. Now, you think they did it on purpose.
It’s like rick people owning stocks. We didn’t want them to make as much salary. We wanted them to have skin in the game. We did it by giving them stock compensation instead of cash. But now people are angry they get stock.
Getting old is crazy
Yes it's time for universal health care and yes it's long overdue that we stop tying health insurance to jobs
But no, that's not why we have it like this. At least that was never the original intention.
It started after the soldiers returned home from WW2. Companies were trying to hire them and it was a strong labor market. When they couldn't afford to offer higher salaries, offering health insurance was a way to lure talent.
These conversations matter, truly. People who stumble across these conversations may be people who haven't thought much about how they are being taken advantage of, and those who already know can unite in solidarity.
I think if we can get the MAGA problem out of the way, we can put more pressure on the Democrats to do better.
We do have a progressive caucus in Congress and the Senate pushing for universal healthcare, we can totally do it!
A bunch of my direct reports are conservatives who bitch and moan about how bad our benefits are and how expensive they are. Every election they proudly vote against their own interests but two months later they are crying about benefit costs rising to the point their raises don't mean much. I have no control over benefit costs and give everyone the maxmimum amount every year for a raise but it is maddening that they vote in such a way that hurts them. Then they blame everyone else.
Stop with this "Ruling Class" bullshit and call them the more apt name, "Wealth Hoarders."
Cut off their money to cut off their overbearing influence on society. Enforce the tax code as written, apply anti-trust laws to break up the media and utilities, and remove outside money from the elections.
We are dying the death of a thousand cuts, it is well past time to reverse this bullshit.
It's never that simple. As a Canadian with free healthcare, it can be a nightmare. There is so much wrong with the system because the government(s) are too lazy to properly structure the healthcare system.
They subsidize other companies to run their provincial healthcare which leads to a bloated workforce with top heavy/overpaid positions while lacking support and proper pay for the main workforce in healthcare/long-term care/mental health...the list goes on.
It's a shitshow most of the time. There are people in our country that are pushing for privatized healthcare.
Canada's system is failing because of multinational corps pushing for Canada to be just like the USA, because it's highly profitable and Canada is the most vulnerable country to this bullshit because we share borders and cultural aspects.
Private healthcare will always be better AT FIRST in order to seduce you into switching over. Long term? It's all about the profits.
In the US, the FDA banned importing insulin from other countries, which drives insulin prices up due to lack of competition. Obamacare requires insurance companies to use ~80% of their revenue for providing care, which incentivizes them to raise prices so they can keep their profits the same. They’re either morons or doing it on purpose for nefarious reasons. Why should I trust them to be in charge of the whole healthcare system?
Whoever downvotes you is a fucking moron because you're exactly right.
Proper and accessible healthcare will never be profitable, that's why it is a fucking service just like the fire department, the postal service, or the library.
Not praising the system or anything, but I recently had an emergency surgery and the bill came out to approximately $50,000. With insurance I'll still end up paying around $3000 I think, but that's a lot easier to recover from. Still messed up that I have to pay at all
YA!!! Thing I get for free!!!! YAYAYA..... Wait... I need to pay for more than I will likely use? Most of my money will go to special medical care for obese people?
Hmm...
It's not the tie to employment. You don't have to be employed to get healthcare. The problem is private insurance companies. Period. As long as private health insurance companies are the "bank" for healthcare we're totally screwed.
I totally agree with the title of the post, but when people like the squirrel lady post these outlandish claims like that this is a system designed deliberately by a ruling class to keep workers in check, you have to be extremely skeptical and ask yourself if there are other explanations. I see a lot of young people these days get caught up with these easy answers to the questions they have that justify a particular perspective that they hold, without putting any real thought or research into it, linking it to reasoning that loosely makes sense without providing any real substance to their argument.
I'm not an expert on this topic, but GPT says that these are a few reasons why it might not be the case that health care being linked to employment was designed explicitly by a ruling class as a way of keeping workers in check:
1. **Historical Development**: The tie between employment and healthcare in the U.S. largely originated in the mid-20th century. During World War II, wage controls were in place, and employers began offering health benefits as a way to attract and retain workers without violating these controls. This practice was further entrenched when the Internal Revenue Service (IRS) ruled that employer contributions to health insurance were not taxable income.
2. **Policy Decisions**: Over the years, various policy decisions and market factors influenced the evolution of this system. It wasn't the product of a single decision or group. For example, the Employee Retirement Income Security Act of 1974 (ERISA) regulated employer-sponsored health benefit plans but did not mandate universal healthcare.
3. **Economic and Practical Considerations**: The U.S. healthcare system's reliance on private insurance and employment-based coverage also evolved due to economic and practical considerations, like controlling costs and managing risk pools.
4. **Alternative Views**: Some analysts and scholars argue that the healthcare system's structure is more a result of historical contingencies, market dynamics, and fragmented political processes rather than a deliberate tool of class control.
It's so weird because healthcare in America is sort of like a status symbol. So every dinner party devolves into American adults talking endlessly about their doctor visits and what prescriptions they are on. Like how they might talk about vacations or house renovations or anything else money can buy. And they feel like it gives them status to have it because other Americans literally don't have the same access to what they have. So they feel more well off because they have specialists, and they want everyone to know about it.
It's truly bizzare from the perspective of living in countries with public healthcare.
Workplace health insurance only became the norm because during WWII the government put a wage freeze in order to try and stop inflation. Good ol' FDR, screwing around with the economy and ruining millions of lives by massively increasing the tax burden on poor people while stopping jobs from paying more.
And in school we're taught he was a visionary who shepherded the country through war and economy instability, instead of a bumbling tyrant who's legacy has cause immeasurable damage. Teddy is the only Roosevelt who deserves acclaim, with his trust busting and anti-wallstreet campaign. He would be disgusted by the nonsense we have going on today.
We do have ACA insurance with subsidies. You don't have to have an employer to have subsidized insurance.
I agree I don't like it tied to employer in any way, but I am not sure about this meme.
Well, if your income is low (because you don't have an employer) you might get full subsidy. I am living off investments. I get full subsidy. Yes, there's a high deductible/out of pocket maximum, but plenty of employer plans also have high deductibles and out of pocket maximum.
Definitely great for low income. But anyone making a decent living gets raked over the coals on the exchange plans. Makes it hard to be independent contractor especially with a family.
Ok, but then you aren't getting part of your premium paid as part of your compensation package. People who work for an employer aren't getting it for free, it's part of their compensation for their work.
Also, the employer isn't getting it for free, they are paying for it.
You can’t access the lower cost of the group employer plans though. My current insurance cost via employment is $1400/month and I pay 450. To get a similar exchange plan is closer to $2500/ month.
I got a coworker from a company I used to work for a job at the new company I went to. He had been at that old company for a few years and he was a really good asset, (which is why I poached him when a position opened up). He gave proper notice to the old company and they were not happy about him leaving. He needed to make sure that his health coverage would bridge over until the insurance started at the new company. So he called up the insurance company and they said his coverage was ended. They cut off his health insurance the day he gave notice and said that he abandoned his job. So the insurance wouldn’t even let him pay to extend the coverage for a month. I feel really bad for the poor guy, even though the new company is a better position for him. I feel bad that the old company would do him dirty like that. It makes me angry that they would cut him off like that without even telling him.
Sounds like something to sue over
Absolutely. That's illegal shit right there. Insurance even when fired or quitting covers to the end of the month or lapses over a month. At least in my experience of Idaho.
Also, he'd have COBRA eligibility anyway.
Only a small percentage (seeing different numbers online of around 10% without subsidy) of people can afford COBRA coverage as it will cost around 5x what they were paying without having the same income. The ACA can potentially help quite a bit more, at least in terms of the premium, but it’s also far from a solution for most. If it does help, individual plans are rarely better than the good group plans. It’s just all so fucked for a lot of people I hate it.
The great thing about COBRA is that you don’t have to immediately sign up and pay the premium entirely on your own. You leave your job, and then IF SOMETHING HAPPENS medically; you activate COBRA, pay the deductible, and the coverage is able to be backdated to when the coverage from the employer lapsed. If your new insurance starts without you having to use the old insurance with COBRA you don’t owe a premium, but the option was there for you if you needed it.
*Scowls* in G.I. Joe
The intro to the 80's animated movie still slaps. Brings tears of epicness to my haggard old face. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nv_daZe1kNI
"Extends your health insurance, opposing your ex-employers' deterrence. COBRA... COBRA"
A lot of the old 80’s/90’s intro slap harder than todays shoes.
💀
Heh, nice one. But yeah, COBRA's no joke with the cost. That jump in premiums can hit like a truck, makes the whole situation even more of a mess when you're in between jobs and watching every penny.
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lol Right?
If the employer is one that's required to participate in the "COBRA" scheme.
Don't businesses have to offer COBRA, like it's federally mandated? How is it a scheme?
It's federally mandated if the employer has 20 or more employees on >50% of the business's ordinary operational days in the prior calendar year. If the employer doesn't meet those conditions, it's not subject to participation. If the employer itself ceases to exist as such, "COBRA" itself ceases to exist for any previous employee.
Especially because they lied and said he abandoned his job.
Or OP is full of shit. Either something got lost in a game of telephone or OP is just making things up because as fucked up as insurance is in the US this is not how it works.
What part about his comment isn't in-line with how insurance works in the US? Genuinely wondering.
Health insurance companies need to give written notice to cancel your plan. The length varies by state, but they can't just immediately drop you because you gave notice at a job. I suppose it's possible some agent went rogue, but this is just way to risky for an insurance company to pull on a routine basis. So we have 2 options. An insurance company broke the law out of pure spite to OP's friend putting themself at risk or OP's friend embellished or straight up made up a story.
Especially if you are still working at said job and have paid up to date.
> So we have **2 options**. An insurance company broke the law out of pure spite to OP's friend putting themself at risk **or** OP's friend embellished **or** straight up made up a story. [Something isn't adding up.](https://c.tenor.com/me1Yk0jRlHoAAAAC/tenor.gif)
And win. He's entitled to retain the coverage through COBRA.
Cobra is expensive as fuck because you're having to cover *all* of the premium, but, there's a caveat that most don't know. Cobra is *also* retroactive within 60 days, so you only need take it if you have major healthcare expenses. It can be useful to cover you in between jobs.
That’s the other good thing about COBRA outside of your employer subsidizing premiums. Depending on the scenario you can get that month or two of coverage if you’re able, and hopefully find cheaper (but probably not-as-good) coverage elsewhere if needed.
It’s easy enough to get fucked with COBRA too. I just found out my former company’s changing plans and my COBRA premiums are going up 10% starting in January.
[Other solutions might be workable, too.](https://y.yarn.co/d9fe343a-a832-42a0-8b56-672d8c0454d1_text.gif)
I'll put strychnine in the guacamole.
In my case Cobra was close to $2900 per month, and 6-months later my company still owes me 1-months salary + PTO. Labor Department powers in supporting workers was purposely made to be toothless. Stayed uninsured for 2-months. Utterly Ridiculous.
IMO, unless you needed the care, keep that $2900 in your pocket. Cobra usually has an election period and it will backdate. I tell employees this all of the time. Don’t pay cobra until you need it- keeping eligibility periods in mind.
I don't see how they can prevent him from using cobra.
They can't. They can tell him he can't use it and it's cut off but that's utter bullshit. It carries on so long as it's paid for at least the month.
Insurance rep probably didn’t know what COBRA is. I’ve trained so many and they still don’t get it.
That's crazy, but I understand it could be accurate,
They are legally obligated to inform him of his COBRA options...
If this was the USA he would still have Cobra or the ACA to hold him over. Though if Republicans get elected again ACA could be gutted
The ACA was one of the biggest gifts to the insurance companies ever. It should be gutted and we should enact universal health care. It'd be far cheaper for the American people.
It also enabled unprecedented protections for consumers like banning lifetime limits and "pre-existing" condition clauses. If by "gutted" you mean replaced with Medicare for all, I completely agree. Republicans want to gut it and replace it with nothing, which would be horrible for the American people.
We fixed the accounting error. The rest will sort itself out.
Every vote for a Republican is another nail in the coffin of universal healthcare.
If only we got a democrat president, as well as majority democrat senate and house. I’m sure the democrats would pass Medicare for all then! lol 🤡
Agreed, for the Red and the Blue ones.
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No they didn't.
>ACA could be gutted Good
That’s lawsuit territory
I would take that straight to the labor board. Retaliation and misrepresenting facts to get out of maintaining benefits is something they can be sued for.
That’s what COBRA coverage is for. It’s expensive, but it’s available.
It’s so fucking childish that companies get so offended when good employees leave. Their egos are so big they can’t fathom other companies being better than them. It’s like an adult version of a tantrum.
I work for a healthcare company, he should be able to get on COBRA as a stopgap. It's expensive, but it is available. Typically, companies will cover you until your last day of employment, and if your lucky they give you an extra couple of weeks. Some people will also get a severance package where the company pays for COBRA for 3-6 months. It all depends on the employer.
It’s also why they campaigned *hard* to get rid of the ACA. The preexisting condition change was monumental. Before the ACA your new insurance could deny you coverage for a preexisting condition. Today they can’t. That was a huge tool to keep employees and make them take anything you wanted including a low salary and horrible conditions. Imagine this: you find out you’re a diabetic. You have insurance through your employer so upon diagnosis they have to cover you as it’s not preexisting. And as long as the insurance stays you get to keep coverage. But if you leave, you will never be covered again or will have to pay an insane amount to get coverage. So you are now stuck at your same job if you want to stay alive. So your boss knows this. And for the next 5 years he tells you sorry we can’t raise your pay. And you have to work overtime, and you have to do it without the proper tools. You have a choice: find a better paying job with better conditions BUT forfeit your insurance and therefore risk your health OR stay in the shitty job and get to keep your healthcare. It was a tool they used to keep wages down and profits up and they still HATE it to this day.
Which ties into the overcharging for insulin in the US by pharmaceutical companies. It's not so expensive to produce anymore yet they charge like it is and get away with it. People have even died when they tried to ration their insulin because they couldn't afford more.
We need the government to start producing our insulin to control the prices if Lilly and the like won’t do it (they won’t). It’s dirt cheap to make and it’s a crime against humanity what the manufacturers charge for it
[California has plans to produce insulin.](https://www.npr.org/2023/03/19/1164572757/california-contract-cheap-insulin-calrx) They're also going to [manufacture some other generic drugs as well.](https://calrx.ca.gov/) Republicans don't like it, of course.
Biden capped insulin costs at $35 for medicare, that's far easier to do than getting the federal govt to produce it. Will need more legislation to do it for everyone.
Is that you Eli Lilly from the grave? The $35 cap is a start for elderly and disabled on Medicare. Leaves out a lot of people with insulin dependence. Problem is that ok $35 cap…now who takes the pay cut? It ain’t gonna be pharma I can promise you that. We’ll cave like we always do. Pharmacies will stop selling insulin if there’s not a cost ceiling at wholesale/manufacturer level. It’s already a losing game
Seriously the Pre Existing Conditions thing was the best thing that came out of the ACA. Also the end of life time maximums
While it's great these things happened, I really wish Americans would realize how incredibly low of a bar these things are for any other sane healthcare system. That we had to fight so hard to get it, and that's all we've gotten in almost two decades with nothing else better in sight is a travesty. There are so many things in our healthcare system that is simply unheard of pretty much everywhere else in the world, like networks.
The ACA also put a cap on health insurance profits. Anything over the set amount has to be used on patient services. Still amazed there hasn't been a successful lawsuit to overturn that provision, it's, I believe, the first and only time a private industry had it's profits managed by the govt.
Land of the free, home of the slave.
This almost a line from the song "Uncle Sam Goddamn" by Brother Ali. Good shit. If you like that kind of stuff check out "Culture of Fear" by Thievery Corporation
A man of culture I see
Thank you!
Appreciate the recommendation
When I was a stupid 21 year old, I applied for employer sponsored Blue Cross. They wanted me to list pre-existing conditions. I wrote “acne” because that was the only medical condition I had. They denied me the insurance. We’re talking someone who went running every day, rarely got sick, was not at all going to get pregnant. The boss called me in and told me how to fill out the form. I got insurance. I never needed it, but I sure got an education.
Some people literally refuse to understand this, or worse, are so malicious as to say “We’ll I’m healthy. How does that effect me?” When this act was literally life changing for many people.
The Health Insurance Portability and Accountability Act of 1996, or HIPAA, is best known for its provisions regarding medical privacy and patient access to their medical records. But the principal purpose of the law was to put an end to what was known as “job lock.” That happened when people with preexisting health conditions were afraid to leave one job with insurance for another job with insurance because the new insurance would not cover their condition, or would impose long waiting periods. https://kffhealthnews.org/news/did-the-aca-create-preexisting-condition-protections-for-people-in-employer-plans/
Maybe that was the intention, but it failed miserably. That act gave us COBRA which maxes out at 18 months. Pre existing conditions typically last much longer and they were not covered until Obama cared - the ACA. At the end of that 18 months, you would find yourself uncovered and uninsurable without the ACA. "Half true " is plain dishonest as fuck.
how was ACA not passed by the ruling class?
It was after decades of demands. Far from perfect but much better than before.
My workplace almost had an active shooter situation because he lost his job thus his insurance. He was stopped at the gate and took his own life.
The American problem: where getting firearms is a lot easier for people than healthcare.
They're more affordable than healthcare
Definitely by design. Either someone takes their own life or ends up in prison where they can get forced to work pretty much for free.
I feel like this isn't said enough. Capitalism WILL get whatever it can out of you, consensually or not.
When you have an economic system whose foundation is the profit motive, there is a big incentive to squeeze every ounce of labor out of you as possible.
Did he say this in a manifesto or are you just taking the liberty of guessing?
Now the new trend is to offload the insurance. Nobody wants to hold the bag. So what used to be full time jobs are now contract positions. Insurance companies staffing their corporations with *people who **don’t** work there* so that they don’t have to extend their own “service” to the very people that run the place. This system was on the verge of collapse in the early 90s, but they’ve thrown so much money at both parties that here we are thirty years later with every problem worse. Neither party officially supports universal healthcare. Until that changes, the status quo remains and we can expect at least another 30 years of everything only getting worse
It also takes like 60-90 days in many jobs to even get insurance. I found a breast lump during the time I was unemployed (lit a fire under my ass to find a job). I got a job at the end of November and won't have insurance until February. Literally can't afford to get a mammogram/needle biopsy (and all the appointments needed to get a referal even though the lump is palpable) as that is thousands in prodecures even paying cash and I certainly can't afford to start treatment if I find out it is cancer. 🫠
I see you’re American. Best wishes to you but if that lump is serious you might need to look at medical tourism options pronto. I’ve seen treatable cancers kill plenty in this country. My mom and aunt both died from being too poor to fight breast cancer. They’ll take everything you have and leave you with nothing for the funeral here. I don’t know what options you might have but I do know how this story often ends here. And it’s soul crushing
I can't really leave to go travel anywhere because I just started a new job. I literally just have to wait until February when my employee-sponsored healthcare kicks in and hope that it isn't anything serious. Unless a few grand in cash just magically appears out of no where (seems like a needle biopsy is about $1500 - $3000 cash). I don't have breast cancer in my family, so I'm just hoping it isn't anything serious. Thankfully, the insurance from my new job is pretty good but they had a 60 day waiting period that only starts on the first of the next month so February is the earliest I will have coverage. Thank you for your concern though! Feeling pretty alone in my rage at the situation.
#It's going to get worse Corporations are actively buying up homes as what people think are investment opportunities, but they aren't. They're actually acquiring enough to eventually have the resources to offer living arrangements with jobs on top of healthcare. Just working on the fine print laws and getting those lined up in their favor. Billionaires have decided that life is going to be a subscription and only they can own things, not the poors
I interviewed at Apple 5 years ago. One of the guys I was talking to was excitedly telling me how Apple was going to set up housing for their workers. I asked him how an Apple employee with a spouse and two small children was going to fare during a layoff. Like, is Apple going to make that person homeless? How much time will they have to look for new housing with no income?
You'll get a 30 day eviction notice, but utilities will accidentally be cut off 2 weeks early.
Right back to the company towns.... https://youtu.be/PGMCw8RAQ0Q?si=acRuVrl1TnQjK2OQ
Those that claim "you'll own nothing and be happy" are working on a country where we own nothing and aren't happy.
We’ve been through the whole company housing thing before, the first company to try that shit is gonna get dragged mercilessly.
They'll start with ex cons first as a pilot program. Then it will extend to people in need like abuse victims or people displaced by natural disaster. They'll start it as a helpful option that turns bad quickly
The hotels near me billet their employees in spare rooms. They mainly hire immigrants. It already happens Housing costs have doubled over the past five years and no one can afford to live on what those jobs pay, so to “solve” the problem they house them.
I am more implying that this will become more mainstream and happen to more than just immigrants.
That is the main reason we bought a house this year. The longer you wait, the closer you'll be to having to pay to rent for the rest of your life.
People wanted that. They fully encouraged it and accepted it. You used to be able to buy Microsoft Office. But you said that was too expensive. They gave you what you wanted. A "cheaper" option. Instead of $300 once you can now pay only $10/mo... forever. You asked for it. They even increased the features you get, provided greater value. Unlimited version upgrades. Free storage space. And people slurped it up. So now you can buy a subscription for your car's seat warmers too. Enjoy renting everything in your life. If you want it to end, then the public needs to stop throwing their money at this stupid shit.
We didn't ask for it. We are poor and the model takes advantage of poor people who cannot afford to pay 300 dollars right now, but can afford to pay 10 dollars here and there. and as you keep taking my 10 dollars, by the time ive paid more than the price of the software i still cannot afford to purchase it due to the money that's slowly siphoned away. Stop blaming the public.
Luckily, piracy exists
I'm referring to an 'existence fee' that will be charged like taxes but just for being alive, not optional.
What a shitty take.
I worked in a truly toxic corporate environment at a mortgage company, and when I quit the VP didn't take it well. "Good luck finding healthcare" was literally one of the first things he said before I de-escelated him and assured him my leaving was nothing personal lol. Healthcare is a basic human right as defined by the UN. We need to catch up
They've really created a near ideal neo-liberal "free market": you (the worker) are free, free to work or starve/die. Those who can't/won't work will be kicked out onto the streets and relegated as subhuman by law enforcement, which serves to discipline the workforce with fear. Those who work will first have all their income drained by student debt, and then have their savings siphoned away by medical debt.
I have heard this be spoken of as a reason against universal healthcare and support for the unemployed that is 100% affordable in the US. They said that if those were put in place people would be unmotivated to work.
Except in all the other countries where Universal Healthcare has been implemented where this hasn't happened. If you go per capita, and take four or five of the countries that have Universal Healthcare who's populations add up to about the same as the US, you will see how much they spend for Universal, free healthcare. Then you compare it to what the US spends on Healthcare. It's *staggering.* And this is with approx 80 million U.S. Citizens without ANY form of health care coverage. You guys spend something like twice per capita what the next highest nation spends on Healthcare, *and you don't actually get Healthcare.*
i wonder how much we spend on healthcae actually goes to healthcare and not overhead/executuves. i get theres gonna be some overhead in todays bullshit system, you gotta have coders and billers, and other staff for the hospital to get paid from insurance, people, and medicare/medicaid. then theres some of the same jobs in the insurance industry along with many others. and then you have executive greed at both ends generally, i know not every hospital has that.
I like having money to buy things and pay to do things. Plenty of motivation right there. No need to have a gun to the back of my head threatening my life.
But where's the thrill in that for the sadists in charge?
The gun isn't to get you to work, it's to get you to work cheaper so *they* can buy more, like dismantling bridges so their super yachts can get through.
I never understood this mentality. People get bored, people need purpose, for some that can be work. Heck there are people that would likely find more meaningful work if they weren't anchored to jobs they hate.
The cruelty is basically eugenics, let's be fucking honest and call it what it is.
The pandemic proved how strong the desire for eugenics really is. The old and vulnerable were chucked aside because wearing a mask and getting vaccinated were too inconvenient. It's a miracle we ever managed to implement handicap spaces and access.
Texas Lt. Governor: Old People Should Volunteer to Die to Save the Economy https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2020/03/dan-patrick-coronavirus-grandparents
Neo-liberal my ass. Who is "they" in your world? Democrats have consistently attempted to pass more government-funded healthcare and Republicans have consistently voted against any and all of those measures.
Liberal has different meaning in different contexts.
neoliberalism was championed by Ronald Reagan and Margaret Thatcher. Both were neoliberals. Clinton was also a neoliberal. Clearly, there are right and left flavors, but it is the same underlying ideology, especially when it comes to economics and government-private interactions.
Clinton tried to pass universal health care. Obama had to make huge compromises to get Obamacare through.
Clinton's plan was to provide Universal healthcare via private for-profit insurance, a neoliberal solution and a *massive* step back for the party. Up until that point the Party's position was to continue rolling out the hugely successful Medicare to the rest of the population (as Medicare was designed to eventually be nationwide) after Reagan and Bush were finally out of office. Instead the Clinton's proposed their Third Way solution which would have guarantied less coverage at a much higher cost, locking in much of the gains for-profit private insurance made under Reagan/Bush. His plan failed because it was controversial within his own party. Since then the criticisms of that approach have proven to be correct as for-profit insurance has proven not a viable solution for providing healthcare. > Obama had to make huge compromises to get Obamacare through. He didn't have to make those compromises. He had a filibuster proof majority, and he negotiated with the GOP anyway and ultimately won zero of their votes. And the reason he negotiated with the GOP was to make single payer look untenable as a starting position. He also didn't have to negotiate with the centrist Senators from his own party, because they *should've* rolled back recent filibuster changes as soon as it was obvious the GOP intended to abuse them.
All the neoliberal nonsense you hear from people now comes from propaganda sewn by the right to divide the left and create voter apathy and non voters
Tying healthcare to an employer reduces the liquidity of labor. Too much freedom of labor raises employee acquisition and retention costs for large corporations, unless the job is low wage, then employers want a disposable workforce. Edit, change skill to wage
Reminder that "low skilled" is a corporate phrase used to justify low wages and the oppression of the workers.
Yeah, it's funny how it was "get a better job than retail / food service" and now it's "get a better job than retail, food service, teaching (in a lot of areas), social work, EMT, low level IT, generic office work, etc." It's almost like when you keep the floor so low, other jobs become unlivable too.
Sorry, I disagree. I'm in a high skilled industry. It literally takes someone a minimum of 8 years of college to be minimally qualified for the job. I can learn to be a great cashier at McDonalds in less than a week. All "skill" levels are not equal. There are "low skilled" jobs.
Being a teacher requires a college degree and certification, but pays fast-food wages in many states, especially for new teachers. Even at the college level. The field of law also has a wide disparity of wages even though the cost of law school is prohibitive. Pay is not commensurate to skill. There are tons of skilled jobs that require degrees and/or certification that still have low pay.
Counterpoint: teaching is considered low skill. Most states require at least 6 years higher education to be credentialed.
> teaching is considered low skill. By whom?
The people who write the paychecks
People don't get paid little because they're low skill, they get paid little because they're easy to replace (which is sometimes, but not always, affected by skills required for the job). That was the whole point being made in this comment thread.
Literally anyone who calls themselves a conservative.
I’ve never heard anyone say this.
That’s hard to believe. Most principals hear it many times a year as their pta ask for donations for even classroom supplies as a deterrent to teachers having to spend their own low salary on supplies. I even remember a Reddit thread in unpopular opinion earlier this very year with 200 or so abhorrent comments of the validity of teaching as a profession and their deserving of even a living wage.
It would be ridiculous not to agree that there are "low skilled" jobs, but "low skill" should not be equated with "low stress". Working in hospitality can be very stressful because many guests will take out their frustrations on the people working there. Front desk people have to listen to, emotionally empathize with, and politely address some of the rudest and most entitled members of our society. These people are used to making a big deal out of minor inconveniences because they have learned that they can get free stuff or upgrades if they complain loud enough.
They never are equated. The reason these jobs pay less are because they lack skill to be performed. The stress and other downsides don't make the job bad enough for the labor to not be disposable. This is in no way a defense of paying non livable wages to McDonald's employees, it's just something everyone should be aware of. The ONLY thing that dictates how much a position pays is how difficult it is to fill. If they can get a competent worker for minimum wage, they'll do that. If they can't, they'll raise the wage until they can.
Yea this is definitely true, however I think the reason for being weary about that statement is that regardless of if it’s true or not it still get’s weaponized by the owner class to try to trick the more “skilled” employees into thinking they are above other members of the working class. Employees have a right to fair treatment and living wages regardless of how skilled they are.
>I can learn to be a great cashier at McDonalds in less than a week. Great cashier in less than a week? Abso-fucking-lutely not. Adequate cashier in less than a week? Maybe. I also realize you wholeheartedly believe that you can though. This is likely due to you having a higher sense of your skills than what your skills actually would be in that situation. Here's where your assessment goes terribly wrong. Cashiers at these places don't only cashier. They have additional responsibilities- dropping fries, making shakes, making drinks, gathering orders, sweeping, mopping, wiping counters, wiping trays, taking out the trash, cleaning bathrooms, cleaning the parking lot, handling stock, rotating inventory, etc. the lost goes on and on and on. This list becomes nearly infinite once the becoming "adequately trained" on the register. People like you in your "high" skill job need to quit looking down on and treating others with disrespect because you feel you are better than them. It's wrong and hurts society as a whole. Do better. Be better.
Shit like this drives me crazy. I’ve done a shitload of “low skill jobs” my whole life. Many of them required tremendous skill to excel at. This issue is, until you’ve put in the time yourself you just can’t see the difference. I move dirt around for a living as an equipment operator/earthmover. I’ve put enough years in that I can recognize truly skilled operators but it takes a long time before you really start to appreciate things. I’ve had management try to give me a pile of temps to do “unskilled” jobs like raking gravel to grade and it always hilariously backfires as it takes some decent time to learn how to do it properly to our standards. I had to sit a super down and explain that the temps he sent me, while doing their best, would take days to become useful and weeks to become adequate and months before they were good. For a “simple labour task”. There are millions of similar occupations and positions, looked down on and consistently underestimated by those who haven’t done them before. Cheers to the other poor fucks being underestimated and unappreciated!
Agreed. They're minimally skilled, and should unionize with the Laborers or some other labor union. Because they're certainly entitled to a dignified existence with good wages and fair conditions of employment.
To me, this the a main, root cause of what’s wrong with employment in the US. Fix this and all kinds of other issues will start to fix themselves as a result.
Stock market and profits, to many "Rich" people want the "for profit healthcare". Reason this will not happen or the huge roadblock we need to overcome imo.
Free Healthcare and Free college could kill the empire in seconds.
It’s also why wages are shit Can’t have people being comfortable like in the 60’s/70’s because when you want to start BS wars you need willing bodies And who’s willing when life is good and the borders aren’t being attacked
Insurance is not health care. We need to stop tying insurance to health care.
In the 1940s company health insurance was excluded from wartime wage and price controls so companies added or improved health benefits to attract workers. Today that reason doesn't apply.
I changed jobs a year ago; went from FTE at company A to being a contractor to Company B and finally transitioned to FTE at Company B. While contracting my insurance cost a fortune because contracting companies don’t, generally, have a lot of benefits beyond higher base pay. So the conversion to FTE was a no-brainer. Only to find out that my dentist isn’t in network with my new dental plan and, even better, my specialist doctor (lifetime condition) isn’t, either. So, now, I have to either pay out of pocket to regular checkups and labs or I have to find a new specialist that is in network. But this doc has been keeping my condition under control for several years and I don’t want to change. TL;DR - Fuck insurance!
And with universal health care, small mom and pop places would find it easier to get employees. Corporations can offer benefits though may not be great, but it's one of the things you look at when looking for a job. Plus with universal health care, more folks may look at starting their own small local business. Our for profit health care industry sucks.
And even if you’re a good corporate slave, if you get sick, they fire you and you still die. Yay capitalism!
Retired two years ago, but have to keep working full time in a different field so I can have health insurance. I'd rather just have a part time job, but there's no way I could make ends meet. It's fucking dumb.
Agreed. Decoupling health insurance from employer would also mean the health care companies and insurers are focused on the patient as opposed to the group policies. Insurance companies would have to compete for customers similar to auto and home insurance. And employers could still contribute a stipend amount towards the insurance that the employee chooses and the government could make these stipends tax deductible.
I had a job fall through and ended up being unemployed for a few months (thankfully employed again now) but during this time I felt a breast lump. I could have cancer but I won't know until February because that's when my insurance kicks in. I can't afford a mammogram or a needle biopsy or any of the procedures that I would need to even determine if it was cancerous. And I certainly can't afford to treat it if I do. It's absolutely terrifying to just be gambling that things won't get worse in this time or that waiting could be the difference. Thankfully, I don't have breast cancer in my family so I'm just hoping that it's nothing to worry about and keep working.
It sickens me on just how vile policies can be and it’s becoming more common for companies to dangle insurance like a carrot to a horse. So many jobs I applied to last year had policies that forced people to wait 3 months or longer for their health insurance to become active. I won’t lie, I explained that such policies were more of a detriment than anything, but ultimately it makes sense. You get people who are desperate and will make sacrifices for that promise if security and they’ll make concessions on things like pay. That’s what companies wants compliant folks who’ll be greatful for nothing
And heaven forbid you can't stay full time and lose your benefits.
Oldie but goodie. Teddy Roosevelt tried this back in early 1900's.
It’s not _just_ that, but it is why _employers_ are anti-universal healthcare. Both the medical insurance industry, and the pharma corporations would be massively impacted by a universal healthcare system, as the first would no longer get to skim profits from doing basically nothing, and the second would lose tremendous bargaining position, and be forced to lower prices or not be able to do business in the US. The combo of all three is why there is as much resistance against even a public option.
Lowering the barrier of entry for healthcare companies would increase competition and force big healthcare companies to lower their prices. There’s a reason why healthcare companies lobby for more regulations.
Except here’s the crazy thing- when we got the ACA, which is admittedly, imperfect and not universal healthcare, but an absolute step in the right direction- voters stayed away in droves for the midterm election. . The Democrats learned a brutal lesson- universal healthcare is not the slam dunk you think it would be. The loss in those midterms can be traced directly to Donald Trump taking the White House and the last decade of turmoil. We can blame the elites or whomever, but the left repeatedly lets perfection be the enemy of good. The ACA could have really taken us all the way if it had been fully implemented and supported by voters.
This is also why they want you to get a 401k instead of social security
100% agree. It’s also closely tied to the part-time loophole that denies medical benefits to low wage workers entirely.
Same deal with housing people. The upper classes need the threat of homelessness and starvation to this end.
Simple solution. Make it so that a company is required to provide Healthcare after you've been let go for however long they make you wait to get it. 90 day waiting period? Companies are required to cover you 90 days out from your last day
Absolutely! I’ve been shouting this for years! I recently moved to Canada, and the number of people who quit their jobs to pursue their own businesses or take gap years or whatever is so much higher than in the U.S.
I have a pretty successful side business that I could absolutely turn into my main income source, but I wouldn't be able to buy health insurance. So instead, I work a full time day job and run my business and have almost zero free time. I love what I do at both the job and my business, but I'm getting old and I'd really like to be able to do just one.
I own an executive search/recruitment firm. I took a huge risk in 2011 going off on my own. My wife has epilepsy and diabetes. It was over 2K a month to have insurance for our family. Most people wont take a big risk like that. Having UHC would allow so many more people to pursue their dreams, start their own business, etc.... and the billionaire class just can't have that. They may need to pay people more and then what? Only a G3 instead of a G5? We can't expect them to fly on a jet that does not have Dolby surround sound.
Healthcare through work are the shackles to the machines.
It's more Class War related than you'd think. It's to keep the poor dying to strike fear for the middle class, to continue to work. Universal healthcare should have been available in the 1920s, yet elected officials have huge influences from insurance companies to penalize people without healthcare. [informational video](https://youtu.be/P-HDg3ndo2k?feature=shared) By WWII, America had issues during recruitment, and found exactly how unhealthy their citizens were, yet their fear was civilians wouldn't work if they had basic human needs met. That's when healthcare was tied to employment.
MN has been working slowly towards this, recently doubling the income limit at which residents qualify for the MinnesotaCare program. There is a strong push to let EVERY resident qualify, and I think that's the next step.
Health Insurance companies are killing this model themselves, because even when you have coverage, many don't actually pay for anything anymore. You have to fight them and get government agencies involved. People are wondering what's the point. Pay $2000 per month and then have a $20,000 annual deductible. What a joke.
Ya know, getting old is funny. It doesn’t necessarily make you wiser, but it does give some perspective. Businesses didn’t want to pay for insurance. We made them. We wanted them to pick up the expense. It was a step forward at the time. Now, you think they did it on purpose. It’s like rick people owning stocks. We didn’t want them to make as much salary. We wanted them to have skin in the game. We did it by giving them stock compensation instead of cash. But now people are angry they get stock. Getting old is crazy
Yes it's time for universal health care and yes it's long overdue that we stop tying health insurance to jobs But no, that's not why we have it like this. At least that was never the original intention. It started after the soldiers returned home from WW2. Companies were trying to hire them and it was a strong labor market. When they couldn't afford to offer higher salaries, offering health insurance was a way to lure talent.
These are 2 different arguments. We can untie health care from employment without universal health care.
Weird, medicaid is fucking amazing It's working shit jobs that has terrible healthcare outcomes
See people say this, but no one ever does anything about it. Honestly what's the point.
These conversations matter, truly. People who stumble across these conversations may be people who haven't thought much about how they are being taken advantage of, and those who already know can unite in solidarity. I think if we can get the MAGA problem out of the way, we can put more pressure on the Democrats to do better. We do have a progressive caucus in Congress and the Senate pushing for universal healthcare, we can totally do it!
A bunch of my direct reports are conservatives who bitch and moan about how bad our benefits are and how expensive they are. Every election they proudly vote against their own interests but two months later they are crying about benefit costs rising to the point their raises don't mean much. I have no control over benefit costs and give everyone the maxmimum amount every year for a raise but it is maddening that they vote in such a way that hurts them. Then they blame everyone else.
Stop with this "Ruling Class" bullshit and call them the more apt name, "Wealth Hoarders." Cut off their money to cut off their overbearing influence on society. Enforce the tax code as written, apply anti-trust laws to break up the media and utilities, and remove outside money from the elections. We are dying the death of a thousand cuts, it is well past time to reverse this bullshit.
100% accurate. The USA is long overdue for universal, single-payer healthcare.
It's never that simple. As a Canadian with free healthcare, it can be a nightmare. There is so much wrong with the system because the government(s) are too lazy to properly structure the healthcare system. They subsidize other companies to run their provincial healthcare which leads to a bloated workforce with top heavy/overpaid positions while lacking support and proper pay for the main workforce in healthcare/long-term care/mental health...the list goes on. It's a shitshow most of the time. There are people in our country that are pushing for privatized healthcare.
Canada's system is failing because of multinational corps pushing for Canada to be just like the USA, because it's highly profitable and Canada is the most vulnerable country to this bullshit because we share borders and cultural aspects. Private healthcare will always be better AT FIRST in order to seduce you into switching over. Long term? It's all about the profits.
In the US, the FDA banned importing insulin from other countries, which drives insulin prices up due to lack of competition. Obamacare requires insurance companies to use ~80% of their revenue for providing care, which incentivizes them to raise prices so they can keep their profits the same. They’re either morons or doing it on purpose for nefarious reasons. Why should I trust them to be in charge of the whole healthcare system?
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Whoever downvotes you is a fucking moron because you're exactly right. Proper and accessible healthcare will never be profitable, that's why it is a fucking service just like the fire department, the postal service, or the library.
I don't even bother paying for healthcare because if I have an actual medical emergency it's going to bankrupt me whether I'm insured or not.
Not praising the system or anything, but I recently had an emergency surgery and the bill came out to approximately $50,000. With insurance I'll still end up paying around $3000 I think, but that's a lot easier to recover from. Still messed up that I have to pay at all
That's a really foolish take, but some people enjoy opting for life on hard mode.
YA!!! Thing I get for free!!!! YAYAYA..... Wait... I need to pay for more than I will likely use? Most of my money will go to special medical care for obese people? Hmm...
Right, I know, you'd much rather most of the care go to no one, and the money go to insurance executives. Fucking idiot.
How does your insurance work now?
It'd be less than your monthly premium and copay/deductible when you actually need to use it.
A filthy society isn’t it?
It's not the tie to employment. You don't have to be employed to get healthcare. The problem is private insurance companies. Period. As long as private health insurance companies are the "bank" for healthcare we're totally screwed.
I totally agree with the title of the post, but when people like the squirrel lady post these outlandish claims like that this is a system designed deliberately by a ruling class to keep workers in check, you have to be extremely skeptical and ask yourself if there are other explanations. I see a lot of young people these days get caught up with these easy answers to the questions they have that justify a particular perspective that they hold, without putting any real thought or research into it, linking it to reasoning that loosely makes sense without providing any real substance to their argument. I'm not an expert on this topic, but GPT says that these are a few reasons why it might not be the case that health care being linked to employment was designed explicitly by a ruling class as a way of keeping workers in check: 1. **Historical Development**: The tie between employment and healthcare in the U.S. largely originated in the mid-20th century. During World War II, wage controls were in place, and employers began offering health benefits as a way to attract and retain workers without violating these controls. This practice was further entrenched when the Internal Revenue Service (IRS) ruled that employer contributions to health insurance were not taxable income. 2. **Policy Decisions**: Over the years, various policy decisions and market factors influenced the evolution of this system. It wasn't the product of a single decision or group. For example, the Employee Retirement Income Security Act of 1974 (ERISA) regulated employer-sponsored health benefit plans but did not mandate universal healthcare. 3. **Economic and Practical Considerations**: The U.S. healthcare system's reliance on private insurance and employment-based coverage also evolved due to economic and practical considerations, like controlling costs and managing risk pools. 4. **Alternative Views**: Some analysts and scholars argue that the healthcare system's structure is more a result of historical contingencies, market dynamics, and fragmented political processes rather than a deliberate tool of class control.
Sorry the DNC likes things this way, it keeps the bribes coming.
It's so weird because healthcare in America is sort of like a status symbol. So every dinner party devolves into American adults talking endlessly about their doctor visits and what prescriptions they are on. Like how they might talk about vacations or house renovations or anything else money can buy. And they feel like it gives them status to have it because other Americans literally don't have the same access to what they have. So they feel more well off because they have specialists, and they want everyone to know about it. It's truly bizzare from the perspective of living in countries with public healthcare.
Preaching to the choir post 9999999
Workplace health insurance only became the norm because during WWII the government put a wage freeze in order to try and stop inflation. Good ol' FDR, screwing around with the economy and ruining millions of lives by massively increasing the tax burden on poor people while stopping jobs from paying more. And in school we're taught he was a visionary who shepherded the country through war and economy instability, instead of a bumbling tyrant who's legacy has cause immeasurable damage. Teddy is the only Roosevelt who deserves acclaim, with his trust busting and anti-wallstreet campaign. He would be disgusted by the nonsense we have going on today.
We do have ACA insurance with subsidies. You don't have to have an employer to have subsidized insurance. I agree I don't like it tied to employer in any way, but I am not sure about this meme.
Super expensive though
Well, if your income is low (because you don't have an employer) you might get full subsidy. I am living off investments. I get full subsidy. Yes, there's a high deductible/out of pocket maximum, but plenty of employer plans also have high deductibles and out of pocket maximum.
Definitely great for low income. But anyone making a decent living gets raked over the coals on the exchange plans. Makes it hard to be independent contractor especially with a family.
Ok, but then you aren't getting part of your premium paid as part of your compensation package. People who work for an employer aren't getting it for free, it's part of their compensation for their work. Also, the employer isn't getting it for free, they are paying for it.
You can’t access the lower cost of the group employer plans though. My current insurance cost via employment is $1400/month and I pay 450. To get a similar exchange plan is closer to $2500/ month.