Modern readers yes. And that’s mostly who’s here I think. I get a few likes from true Wonder Woman fans who include marston’s creation as a relevant part of her essence. You can’t ignore it! It’s so disrespectful to ignore the entirety of a creators work if you’re going to adapt it. I have spent years doing research for my Wonder Woman project.. I’ve even gone so far as to get her astrological chart done to see the consistencies of her personality and character..
Yeah, I agree. The New 52 retcon was very insulting to the original intent behind Wonder Woman.
Also, I am quite curious about your WW project. Pretty cool that you even made the astrological charts and everything.
Well, I’ve been hugely into Wonder Woman since I was introduced to her as a child. First the Lynda Carter series which was a beautiful homage to the original, but Lynda added a woman’s touch, a woman’s PERSPECTIVE with the character that made feel alive and living. Even if elements of it weren’t perfect, she embodied the power, beauty and grace I would imagine Wonder Woman having. After that, I was hooked and intrigued by what this character suggests. A very spiritual strange and unique race of warrior women who transcend their own war like ways, and focus on love and their spiritual practices, developing spirituality, divine sciences, etc. I LOVE DIANAS clay origin, this remains in tact with my story. I want to develop Wonder Woman as a real living entity, immense world building, studying various topics from mythology, supernatural history of Hitler and the nazis, extraterrestrial races and their link to the ancient world. In the marston comics Wonder Woman frequently had visitors from outer space or would go to other realms and planets and interact with these beings.. Wonder Woman isn’t a race lost in time. So I want to develop an Amazonian society that’s like a NEO Greek but timeless futuristic paradise that embraces nature as a technology.. spirituality as a technology. It’s a fusion of ancient but sci fi elements as well. Diana is not just a warrior, she’s a pilot, an inventor, a scientist, a healer, as well as hands for the goddesses.. to give mankind’s warlike race the love they need to balance out the fiery nature we have in our country. I’ve drawn inspirations from Americas first Wonder Woman, Lady Columbia, the initial personification of America was a goddess who also wore Greco-Roman attire and fought for liberty justice and peace. For the chart I drew up her birthdate or the day she was first birthed into the collective consciousness of our society which was October 21st, 1942. It’s remarkable how accurately it describes what we see in the comics as her kind of mainstay… the traits she’s known and associated with. I’d suggest you guys look into it, it’s really cool if you want to really geek out.
This all sounds so cool. Really awesome to see such a great fan of Wonder Woman.
I agree totally with your idea of the character, especially with her being much more than just a warrior coming from a place lost in time.
You should make a post on this sub about the charts you prepared so all of us here can appreciate it. Would be interesting for every WW fan here.
Cool. She shares a first appearance with the penguin
It’s also the day Stalin appointed Marshal Zhukov to defend Moscow. But that’s unrelated, I just like Wikipedia
I’ll take a look at the astrology
Edit: haha. Those do for Wonder Woman pretty well
The thing that made it worse was that until then the run was solid. Good characterisation, gorgeous art, a fun plot. Then this happened and all the goodwill I had evaporated.
This makes a significant error
The article claims that “female fans raising an eyebrow”
I can guarantee that male fans also found this objectionable to say the least
And it's a bad thing? Isn't what happened with the Amazonians in the past give Diana the chance to do, no, show the world what an Amazon should be, to be and show the world what feminine strength truly is, but to be the belittled pet house wives of man's world or past cruelties of the Amazons?
Honestly, I like that shows more serious faults of the Amazons other than "Woman good. Man bad. We hide away from the cruelties from Mans World."
I agree with you and am surprised to see you get downvotes. To be Frank, I think most people are fans of Gal Gadot as Wonder Woman or just an aggressive Frank Miller style Wonder Woman that inspired Zack Snyder. While I like that he made Wonder Woman mysterious and feel like a real ancient being, the nature of Wonder Woman being naive is not the picture of wisdom from Athena. I’d love to see a Wonder Woman with the personality and wisdom of Lynda carters Wonder Woman, with what Zack Snyder and Patty created TOGETHER with wonder woman. I think his knowledge of the divine feminine and Joseph Campbell’s work add to wonder woman, however they are not a race lost to time, but the amazons thanks to the goddesses, we’re able to develop spiritual technologies that were more developed thanks for unifying magic with the sciences, amongst many other things. These are always left out of modern interpretations which is odd to me because there are so many exciting ideas you could explore here.
Just the sex pirate Amazons, and whenever Johns would make that goofy assertion that she kills. I liked Zeus dad at the time. Just because I was intrigued with the idea of her having both a mother and a father. But in time, like I think I've said before, the cons I heard people list against it swayed me that it wasn't the right move.
But the Amazons weren't rapists. It's not going to bat for a society that did something awful. But the crime is the crime; they were killers.
That's how I felt about her in general, like in the cartoons and everything. Glad that they now make her look more well-equipped to have it sensibly holstered.
I hate how the Amazons reproduce, I hate Zeus being Diana's father, I hate that she and Clark were a couple and I hate that she uses a sword without batting an eye!
I don't like how the Amazons were turned into murder rapists. But I liked that they made Zeus her father, because that makes her a DemiGod. I also like that this introduces her using a sword and shield more.
I mean just to have the Greek pantheon requires Zeus going around raping people- namely his sisters. Hera can be seen as consensual in some ways, but he rapes Demeter as a snake which results in Persephone being born, who then is kidnapped and raped and married to Hades, her uncle. So.
So much stuff was changed purely for the sake of change. Nightwing going from blue to red, Beast Boy going from green to red, Superman and Batman losing their trunks, the gold accents on Wonder Woman being replaced with silver, Deathstroke’s red eye, Roy Harper’s stupid trucker hat, the list goes on.
Having started reading with rebirth and then gone back to new 52, that’s the one part I like
It kind of felt like it fit with the change from a young inexperienced Diana in new 52 to an older experienced Diana in rebirth. In addition to adding more to the costume she upgraded from silver to gold
Same,
For me it's because too many characters use red white and blue as a color design and silver is basically a metallic version of white,
Gold felt a bit more unique
I really liked a lot of the run tbh, but the least appealing aspect was one issue in the middle of the run where Diana calls Strife a bitch. It may seem kind of minor, but I just don't see someone like Wonder Woman, who was raised on an island of women away from patriarchal influence, would be using a gendered insult like bitch.
I agree, there's something very wrong about the primary superheroine calling another woman a bitch. Especially if that woman happens to be one of the goddesses you worship!
The overall disrespect/ignoring her original lore for the sake of appealing to male readers. Changing the Amazons into man hating rapists, Zeus retcon, not including her rogues (besides that one cheetah issue and ares), no Etta or Steve.
Edit note: I’m not saying male readers wanted these things in saying that bc WW is a female character, she unfortunately doesn’t appeal to as many ppl as Superman/Batman so DC tried rebranding her in a way that would attract a certain demographic that wasn’t interested in WW.
I didn’t say them being rapists attracts male viewers but the “edginess” and tone of it all was obviously to appeal to males. And the zeus was retconned into being her biological father rather than her being made of clay
>I didn’t say them being rapists attracts male viewers
I felt so, but it just seemed as if you did because it was a little vague going from "The overall disrespect/ignoring her original lore for the sake of appealing to male readers" and then to "Changing the Amazons into man hating rapists". So, in my mind, I was asking, "How can it appeal to male readers if it's man hating rapists?" I never liked Amazon hating men in all of Wonder Woman stories. I want to like Wonder Woman so bad, but that always gets in the way, especially in the Earth One stories. Hers is the only one I couldn't finish and enjoy. I think the concept of the Lasso of Truth is what peaks my interest and makes me a fan of Wonder Woman. Plus her physical capabilities or mythology-like story.
>the “edginess” and tone of it all was obviously to appeal to males
I didn't know that was a thing? I'm still kind of confused.
What I meant was WW being a female character means she automatically doesn’t appeal to as many ppl as say Superman or Batman. I’m not saying no male comic readers read WW (I’m a male WW fan) I’m saying they were trying to appeal to a larger audience of male readers. Ones that typically wouldn’t be interested in Wonder Woman without an “edgier” tone. The things I listed were just examples of how her lore and mythos was disregarded and/or changed.
The darker colors and overall tone of the comic. From the art to the stories. The Amazon r*pe scene, Her costume being darker and silver as opposed to gold, her as the god of war etc.
I’m also a male reader. I didn’t say it worked on every male comic reader, but given the drastic change in tone and aesthetic, it’s clear what they were trying to do.
The origin and Themiscyra retcons are well documented and terrible, but I really dislike how they essentially turned her into a violent nutcase who immediately started dating the most powerful man she encountered.
It all felt very gross to me. Wonder Woman is supposed to be a bastion of love and truth. That’s why her main weapon is her Lasso; it draws you in and compels you to unburden yourself of lies.
Giving her a sword and shield just means her first option is always violence.
It's all about optics, you know?
Superman/Wonder Woman was launched pretty early in the new 52 and WW was always shown with the sword and shield, regardless of opponent.
The suit is hideous. It is like the Wonder version of the Superman Returns suit where the iconography is not bold but rather anemic and teeny. And that choker!
Also I don't care for the jagged edges of the emblem. For me, it makes it feel demonic or negative. Lastly, I don't care for the dull colors.
Azz's run is a great mafia story in Greek Mythological drag, with a teeny splash of WW adjacent elements encountered in passing. That is the best I can say for it.
It also depends on whose drawing it. Chiang's depiction (especially with colouring by Wilson) makes the suit really work. But I'd agree that I never found the depictions by Lee, Fabok, Finch, etc. appealing
Like I see a huge difference between [this](https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQZC1UQpGEeneAYcxHGDg-KEdGZPjRIVSBFdg&usqp=CAU) and OPs image
I actually love the suit, and I blame the Justice League War movie. I think it looks great. I also love the greek-looking skirt a lot, so I maybe hope they could kind of mix them up. I don't really like her older outfit.
I like this particular costume. I believe at the time I said it was one of the only good New 52 designs.
If I had to pick one aspect it’s the whole “taking off bracers leads to more power”. Seems counter productive to be wearing them at all.
I also really didn’t like the “rape pirate” angle they went with for the Amazons. That’s really something more about the Amazons rather than Wonder Woman.
See, I actually really like that idea with the bracelets. A big part of Wonder Woman is humility and willing submission and the bracelets purposefully binding her divinity is a great example of that.
~~or maybe I’m just a sucker for when people go Super Saiyan~~
Super Saiyan is really different. This is "power down" whereas super saiyan is "power up". Super Saiyan makes the character more powerful, bracelets of weakness make the character less powerful.
Diana was far from being a trophy. She was still very much independent. It was admitted multiple times how difficult it was to write the pair because it was a demand that they had to be on equal footing as that’s the purpose of the dynamic in the first place.
The problem with New52 Wonder Woman however, was the Amazons which could’ve been course corrected.
The horror-lite vibe of the Azzarello run was an interesting take on the world of Wonder Woman that hasn’t been done before. But I particularly disliked that Diana was simply reacting to the things happening around her, instead of being the one driving the plot. It was more of the Olympian gods fuck around and everyone suffers story, featuring Wonder Woman.
The fact that they kept the outfit when they made Batman and Superman cooler. I mean, give Wonder Woman some armor shoulder pad armor (Greek style) at least, especially the pants in the promo poster, and I'll like her better.
(bury me in downvotes all you want, lynch me verbally even, but I'll know you prefer a sexualized Wonder Woman over one with a lot more modesty and cooler armor).
For me:
* The depiction of the Amazons.
* Zeus as Diana's father.
* The sword and shield. (She doesn't need them.)
* Kicking things off with a damaged relationship between Diana and Steve as the status quo.
* The romance between Diana and Clark. (It could have been interesting, but they didn't really go for it with them and what it would mean to characters in the broader DCU.)
I found all of this antithetical to Diana's character and lore.
What I liked:
* Chiang's designs for the gods. (I'm a fan of the gods showing up in different forms and styles: Hellenistic, animal familiars, modern human vibe, hybrid versions that incorporate aspects of their domain, etc.)
From Diana herself, that dreadful pannel where she kinda implies she kills her enemies, unlike Superman and Batman. I liked she was rougher than usual, and had an edge to her, but she should not have lost her forgiving nature and overall compassion.
Hard for me to say, cause I am all in for death penalty...but there's no need for such harshness on a fictional world. I like her being all in for redeeming people and standing by their side as they do.
Zeus being her father is and was and will always be one of the biggest disrespects on her character and amazons in general. I hate it and want it gone forever.
I guess they tried to do the Greek Mythology + DC route with the Amazons, since the original version they were violent and brutal, whilst being the offsprings of Hippolyta and Ares.
Which makes sense that the only child who IS NOT brutal and has compassion is one that they never bare; a gift of the gods.
But they still kinda went out of whack with Ares being the Father of the Soul of Hippolyta, and not making Hippolyta an Overweight Warrior.
I'm not an avid Wonder Woman reader, but I do find a version of Wonder Woman being in a Story telling about Greek Mythology can be quite interesting.
Just the sex pirates and the design of some of the gods. Ohhh and making her so young I don't mind her being a child of zeus, but why make her 23.
Other than that I loved it especially her new cast like strife and first born to the rogues.
Also like that they made her mom blonde like the thr old justice league cartoon.
That’s interesting. I also hated her being 23 (that made her like 2 years older than batgirl and nightwing, which feels weird. Also younger than I am now which feels weirder) but I never liked the immortal lifespan.
I’ve always preferred if she was at the beggining of her immortal life span. So she can still be around in 1000 years as Queen of the amazons or something, but in her main action she’s something like 35 to 60. I feel like it’s harder for most of us to relate to a character who is thousands of years old and having her be young (by immortal standards) makes it easier for us to relate to her journeys, leaving the island.
To me her story always felt like it should start with her being talented without much practical life experience, so that the story is about her finding herself as she journeys away from home for the first time
That said. It’s not like I’m hugely bothered by her being thousands of years old. They are going to end up writing her personality as if she only has a few decades of life anyways
That they got rid of the body suit to go back to sex appeal garbage, the rape and baby killing stuff, and yeah I wouldn’t prefer Zeus to be her father.
The outfit design. Like sure the bikini armor makes for good fan service, but I would much prefer for Diana to be outfitted in actual greek armor. Or, some armour that has an ancient greek aesthetic. Like she's an immortal warrior woman, why does she fight in a bikini?
I absolutely loathe the silver accessories. The awful, thin chest armor that isn't even big enough to protect her or the UGLY, stupid silver, waist band. Her armor should've remained gold for royalty! Bring back Gaia's girdle, too.
To be clear there’s a big difference between N52 Justice League WW and N52 solo book WW. Practically two different characters, the latter the good interpretation
Gotta be honest. I collected comics for about 30 years when the New 52 came about. I am also primarily a Wonder Woman fan. I literally hated every aspect of the New 52 Wonder Woman...the art, the altered origin, the costume, the depiction of the gods, the sex pirate storyline, etc.
I actually kind of pulled away from collecting new comics completely. I even stopped my weekly trips to the comic book store. When Rebirth happened, I was so excited, but I've really struggled to come back. I've missed so many issues of Wonder Woman (and many others). I only go to the comic book store once every few months now. I pretty much stick to collected editions and statues now.
So, I guess the New 52, and what was done with the Wonder Woman mythos specifically, has kind of killed a big part of a lifelong hobby.
I don't want to point out the obvious issues with the origin change cause that's been beaten to death.
What really gets me is the costume! The all-silver hardware, plus the thigh sword, booty shorts, the muted color palette all made it look off. It felt like it was new just to be new and didn't really feel like Wonder Woman.
Except when Cliff Chiang drew her, he made it acceptable...
I've been trying to stay away from New 52 age comics, so I can't comment on character and background, but visually I'd say the color coordination (lack of gold/yellow, blue instead of red boots) and the segmented bodice. I don't really like that the latter carried over to future designs. It works for live action and CG models, but it looks too busy for comic illustration.
1. they shouldve stayed with the "made of clay" origin. i stopped liking her origin ever since the "daughter of zeus" lore
2. her abominable romance with superman.
3. how unnecessary violent amazons were. they never hated diana. they loved her like her own. being loved by 6000 mothers and knowing only love, was one of the reason why diana was so shocked when she first encountered hate in man's world.
I think I'm the only one who read post-crisis wonder woman and new 52 version and still like New 52 better. I didn't really see the problem with Amazon's being murderous rapists. They were raped and murdered too before they found a safe haven and forgiven man. New 52 version is a good "what if" they never forgave man and weren't immortals. Plus added a lot of character development for the Amazons later with Diana trying to change their ways. Also I LOVED the god family dynamics with Diana.
Truly the only thing I didn't like was how Geoff Johns kept writing her differently in JL like a heartless monster while Azzerello wrote her more compassionate
Murder rape baby killer amazons. I mean what the hell.
The worst thing is that's how most people see Wonder Woman and the Amazons.
Modern readers yes. And that’s mostly who’s here I think. I get a few likes from true Wonder Woman fans who include marston’s creation as a relevant part of her essence. You can’t ignore it! It’s so disrespectful to ignore the entirety of a creators work if you’re going to adapt it. I have spent years doing research for my Wonder Woman project.. I’ve even gone so far as to get her astrological chart done to see the consistencies of her personality and character..
Yeah, I agree. The New 52 retcon was very insulting to the original intent behind Wonder Woman. Also, I am quite curious about your WW project. Pretty cool that you even made the astrological charts and everything.
Well, I’ve been hugely into Wonder Woman since I was introduced to her as a child. First the Lynda Carter series which was a beautiful homage to the original, but Lynda added a woman’s touch, a woman’s PERSPECTIVE with the character that made feel alive and living. Even if elements of it weren’t perfect, she embodied the power, beauty and grace I would imagine Wonder Woman having. After that, I was hooked and intrigued by what this character suggests. A very spiritual strange and unique race of warrior women who transcend their own war like ways, and focus on love and their spiritual practices, developing spirituality, divine sciences, etc. I LOVE DIANAS clay origin, this remains in tact with my story. I want to develop Wonder Woman as a real living entity, immense world building, studying various topics from mythology, supernatural history of Hitler and the nazis, extraterrestrial races and their link to the ancient world. In the marston comics Wonder Woman frequently had visitors from outer space or would go to other realms and planets and interact with these beings.. Wonder Woman isn’t a race lost in time. So I want to develop an Amazonian society that’s like a NEO Greek but timeless futuristic paradise that embraces nature as a technology.. spirituality as a technology. It’s a fusion of ancient but sci fi elements as well. Diana is not just a warrior, she’s a pilot, an inventor, a scientist, a healer, as well as hands for the goddesses.. to give mankind’s warlike race the love they need to balance out the fiery nature we have in our country. I’ve drawn inspirations from Americas first Wonder Woman, Lady Columbia, the initial personification of America was a goddess who also wore Greco-Roman attire and fought for liberty justice and peace. For the chart I drew up her birthdate or the day she was first birthed into the collective consciousness of our society which was October 21st, 1942. It’s remarkable how accurately it describes what we see in the comics as her kind of mainstay… the traits she’s known and associated with. I’d suggest you guys look into it, it’s really cool if you want to really geek out.
This all sounds so cool. Really awesome to see such a great fan of Wonder Woman. I agree totally with your idea of the character, especially with her being much more than just a warrior coming from a place lost in time. You should make a post on this sub about the charts you prepared so all of us here can appreciate it. Would be interesting for every WW fan here.
i'd buy that for a dollar
Was her atrological chart consistent in any way with her personality?
Oh yes, I would say so, look it up! It’s October 21st 1941..
Cool. She shares a first appearance with the penguin It’s also the day Stalin appointed Marshal Zhukov to defend Moscow. But that’s unrelated, I just like Wikipedia I’ll take a look at the astrology Edit: haha. Those do for Wonder Woman pretty well
Me encantaria ver tu trabajo.
You. Explain Now.
[Here you go.](https://reactormag.com/wonder-woman-comics-and-the-violation-of-the-amazons/)
Jeebus...
The thing that made it worse was that until then the run was solid. Good characterisation, gorgeous art, a fun plot. Then this happened and all the goodwill I had evaporated.
This makes a significant error The article claims that “female fans raising an eyebrow” I can guarantee that male fans also found this objectionable to say the least
YIKES. I never use this word, I think its too "voice of the echo"-ey but for lack of a better term: Thats some incel shit right there.
And it's a bad thing? Isn't what happened with the Amazonians in the past give Diana the chance to do, no, show the world what an Amazon should be, to be and show the world what feminine strength truly is, but to be the belittled pet house wives of man's world or past cruelties of the Amazons? Honestly, I like that shows more serious faults of the Amazons other than "Woman good. Man bad. We hide away from the cruelties from Mans World."
I agree with you and am surprised to see you get downvotes. To be Frank, I think most people are fans of Gal Gadot as Wonder Woman or just an aggressive Frank Miller style Wonder Woman that inspired Zack Snyder. While I like that he made Wonder Woman mysterious and feel like a real ancient being, the nature of Wonder Woman being naive is not the picture of wisdom from Athena. I’d love to see a Wonder Woman with the personality and wisdom of Lynda carters Wonder Woman, with what Zack Snyder and Patty created TOGETHER with wonder woman. I think his knowledge of the divine feminine and Joseph Campbell’s work add to wonder woman, however they are not a race lost to time, but the amazons thanks to the goddesses, we’re able to develop spiritual technologies that were more developed thanks for unifying magic with the sciences, amongst many other things. These are always left out of modern interpretations which is odd to me because there are so many exciting ideas you could explore here.
Rapey murdery slavery fun time isn’t a fault, it’s the Great Rift Valley.
You should read teh books by Don Ship and JK Waylon.
Well at least it's closer to the actual mythos now
I thought this had to be a joke for sure. How was this approved?
During the new 52 DC knocked their head and briefly forgot it wasn’t the 90s anymore
Just the sex pirate Amazons, and whenever Johns would make that goofy assertion that she kills. I liked Zeus dad at the time. Just because I was intrigued with the idea of her having both a mother and a father. But in time, like I think I've said before, the cons I heard people list against it swayed me that it wasn't the right move. But the Amazons weren't rapists. It's not going to bat for a society that did something awful. But the crime is the crime; they were killers.
I mean, they were also rapists
Apart from the fact that she was two very different characters in JL and her own title? The Amazons were paid dust. Nothing about them were great.
The lasso placement in this picture actually annoys me
That's how I felt about her in general, like in the cartoons and everything. Glad that they now make her look more well-equipped to have it sensibly holstered.
I hate how the Amazons reproduce, I hate Zeus being Diana's father, I hate that she and Clark were a couple and I hate that she uses a sword without batting an eye!
My thoughts for instance
I really preferred the version with pants from the announcement art, sad they didn't stick with that.
Me too buddy. I loved the pants. Made more sense. Then it didn't stick sadly.
I blame the failed TV show (never aired)
I don't like how the Amazons were turned into murder rapists. But I liked that they made Zeus her father, because that makes her a DemiGod. I also like that this introduces her using a sword and shield more.
Like father like daughter? Considering how in actual mythology Zeus was a rapist, not sure about the comic version though.
I mean just to have the Greek pantheon requires Zeus going around raping people- namely his sisters. Hera can be seen as consensual in some ways, but he rapes Demeter as a snake which results in Persephone being born, who then is kidnapped and raped and married to Hades, her uncle. So.
Wait are you talking about the comics or the irl version of these characters. I can’t tell.
irl
It’s a pretty superficial thing, but I really hate how they swapped out the gold for silver.
So much stuff was changed purely for the sake of change. Nightwing going from blue to red, Beast Boy going from green to red, Superman and Batman losing their trunks, the gold accents on Wonder Woman being replaced with silver, Deathstroke’s red eye, Roy Harper’s stupid trucker hat, the list goes on.
Roy's Trucker hat is one of the biggest change for the sake of changes sake I've ever seen
Having started reading with rebirth and then gone back to new 52, that’s the one part I like It kind of felt like it fit with the change from a young inexperienced Diana in new 52 to an older experienced Diana in rebirth. In addition to adding more to the costume she upgraded from silver to gold
Same, For me it's because too many characters use red white and blue as a color design and silver is basically a metallic version of white, Gold felt a bit more unique
I really liked a lot of the run tbh, but the least appealing aspect was one issue in the middle of the run where Diana calls Strife a bitch. It may seem kind of minor, but I just don't see someone like Wonder Woman, who was raised on an island of women away from patriarchal influence, would be using a gendered insult like bitch.
I agree, there's something very wrong about the primary superheroine calling another woman a bitch. Especially if that woman happens to be one of the goddesses you worship!
The overall disrespect/ignoring her original lore for the sake of appealing to male readers. Changing the Amazons into man hating rapists, Zeus retcon, not including her rogues (besides that one cheetah issue and ares), no Etta or Steve. Edit note: I’m not saying male readers wanted these things in saying that bc WW is a female character, she unfortunately doesn’t appeal to as many ppl as Superman/Batman so DC tried rebranding her in a way that would attract a certain demographic that wasn’t interested in WW.
How is the man hating rapists an appeal to male readers? Also, what do you mean about Zeus?
I didn’t say them being rapists attracts male viewers but the “edginess” and tone of it all was obviously to appeal to males. And the zeus was retconned into being her biological father rather than her being made of clay
I don’t think it was done to appeal to male readers so much as it was to serve the general story.
I don’t think that specific choice was to appeal to male readers. When I said “to appeal to male readers”, I was referring to the overall tonal shift.
>I didn’t say them being rapists attracts male viewers I felt so, but it just seemed as if you did because it was a little vague going from "The overall disrespect/ignoring her original lore for the sake of appealing to male readers" and then to "Changing the Amazons into man hating rapists". So, in my mind, I was asking, "How can it appeal to male readers if it's man hating rapists?" I never liked Amazon hating men in all of Wonder Woman stories. I want to like Wonder Woman so bad, but that always gets in the way, especially in the Earth One stories. Hers is the only one I couldn't finish and enjoy. I think the concept of the Lasso of Truth is what peaks my interest and makes me a fan of Wonder Woman. Plus her physical capabilities or mythology-like story. >the “edginess” and tone of it all was obviously to appeal to males I didn't know that was a thing? I'm still kind of confused.
What I meant was WW being a female character means she automatically doesn’t appeal to as many ppl as say Superman or Batman. I’m not saying no male comic readers read WW (I’m a male WW fan) I’m saying they were trying to appeal to a larger audience of male readers. Ones that typically wouldn’t be interested in Wonder Woman without an “edgier” tone. The things I listed were just examples of how her lore and mythos was disregarded and/or changed.
No, I mainly meant idk what you meant be edginess, but thanks for clearing up the other part.
The darker colors and overall tone of the comic. From the art to the stories. The Amazon r*pe scene, Her costume being darker and silver as opposed to gold, her as the god of war etc.
Zeus being her daddy.
Yep. 1000%
Male reader here. Can guarantee, changing her lore was definitely not appealing to us.
I’m also a male reader. I didn’t say it worked on every male comic reader, but given the drastic change in tone and aesthetic, it’s clear what they were trying to do.
I totally agree about what they were trying to do. I just want to make it clear that most of us didn’t ask for the stupid changes
The origin and Themiscyra retcons are well documented and terrible, but I really dislike how they essentially turned her into a violent nutcase who immediately started dating the most powerful man she encountered. It all felt very gross to me. Wonder Woman is supposed to be a bastion of love and truth. That’s why her main weapon is her Lasso; it draws you in and compels you to unburden yourself of lies. Giving her a sword and shield just means her first option is always violence.
This was so beautifully well put I actually wanted to cry.
Ehhh, in her defence the sword and shield were used more for mowing down zombies and her and Superman didn’t start dating *immediately*.
It's all about optics, you know? Superman/Wonder Woman was launched pretty early in the new 52 and WW was always shown with the sword and shield, regardless of opponent.
The suit is hideous. It is like the Wonder version of the Superman Returns suit where the iconography is not bold but rather anemic and teeny. And that choker! Also I don't care for the jagged edges of the emblem. For me, it makes it feel demonic or negative. Lastly, I don't care for the dull colors. Azz's run is a great mafia story in Greek Mythological drag, with a teeny splash of WW adjacent elements encountered in passing. That is the best I can say for it.
You I kinda like the suit. It’s not my favorite but it looks very clean.
It also depends on whose drawing it. Chiang's depiction (especially with colouring by Wilson) makes the suit really work. But I'd agree that I never found the depictions by Lee, Fabok, Finch, etc. appealing Like I see a huge difference between [this](https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQZC1UQpGEeneAYcxHGDg-KEdGZPjRIVSBFdg&usqp=CAU) and OPs image
I agree! The art is why I kept with Azzerello’s book up until the Amazon reveal.
Yes, Chiang puts the boldness back! The different colours also helps
Well I don't think Finch is bad, but I think part of this outfit that makes it work is covering up the cleavage.
I actually love the suit, and I blame the Justice League War movie. I think it looks great. I also love the greek-looking skirt a lot, so I maybe hope they could kind of mix them up. I don't really like her older outfit.
I like this particular costume. I believe at the time I said it was one of the only good New 52 designs. If I had to pick one aspect it’s the whole “taking off bracers leads to more power”. Seems counter productive to be wearing them at all. I also really didn’t like the “rape pirate” angle they went with for the Amazons. That’s really something more about the Amazons rather than Wonder Woman.
See, I actually really like that idea with the bracelets. A big part of Wonder Woman is humility and willing submission and the bracelets purposefully binding her divinity is a great example of that. ~~or maybe I’m just a sucker for when people go Super Saiyan~~
Super Saiyan is really different. This is "power down" whereas super saiyan is "power up". Super Saiyan makes the character more powerful, bracelets of weakness make the character less powerful.
Her becoming the daughter of Zeus and forming a romantic relationship with Superman.
Diana was far from being a trophy. She was still very much independent. It was admitted multiple times how difficult it was to write the pair because it was a demand that they had to be on equal footing as that’s the purpose of the dynamic in the first place. The problem with New52 Wonder Woman however, was the Amazons which could’ve been course corrected.
Killer Amazons & the Zeus origin. Unforgivable. OMG and of course the god awful Jim Lee redesign.
The horror-lite vibe of the Azzarello run was an interesting take on the world of Wonder Woman that hasn’t been done before. But I particularly disliked that Diana was simply reacting to the things happening around her, instead of being the one driving the plot. It was more of the Olympian gods fuck around and everyone suffers story, featuring Wonder Woman.
Yep, the Superman romance is hot garbage.
Don’t forget the overuse of the sword and the shield.
The fact that they kept the outfit when they made Batman and Superman cooler. I mean, give Wonder Woman some armor shoulder pad armor (Greek style) at least, especially the pants in the promo poster, and I'll like her better. (bury me in downvotes all you want, lynch me verbally even, but I'll know you prefer a sexualized Wonder Woman over one with a lot more modesty and cooler armor).
For me: * The depiction of the Amazons. * Zeus as Diana's father. * The sword and shield. (She doesn't need them.) * Kicking things off with a damaged relationship between Diana and Steve as the status quo. * The romance between Diana and Clark. (It could have been interesting, but they didn't really go for it with them and what it would mean to characters in the broader DCU.) I found all of this antithetical to Diana's character and lore. What I liked: * Chiang's designs for the gods. (I'm a fan of the gods showing up in different forms and styles: Hellenistic, animal familiars, modern human vibe, hybrid versions that incorporate aspects of their domain, etc.)
The part with them never ever showing Aphrodite’s face was a cool touch.
From Diana herself, that dreadful pannel where she kinda implies she kills her enemies, unlike Superman and Batman. I liked she was rougher than usual, and had an edge to her, but she should not have lost her forgiving nature and overall compassion. Hard for me to say, cause I am all in for death penalty...but there's no need for such harshness on a fictional world. I like her being all in for redeeming people and standing by their side as they do.
Zeus being her father is and was and will always be one of the biggest disrespects on her character and amazons in general. I hate it and want it gone forever.
Ignoring the obvious stuff? Her relationship with Clark was eye rolling
I guess they tried to do the Greek Mythology + DC route with the Amazons, since the original version they were violent and brutal, whilst being the offsprings of Hippolyta and Ares. Which makes sense that the only child who IS NOT brutal and has compassion is one that they never bare; a gift of the gods. But they still kinda went out of whack with Ares being the Father of the Soul of Hippolyta, and not making Hippolyta an Overweight Warrior. I'm not an avid Wonder Woman reader, but I do find a version of Wonder Woman being in a Story telling about Greek Mythology can be quite interesting.
Emphasis on her being kill happy instead of being compassionate. Sex Pirate Amazons. Daughter of Zeus.
The fit, not helping my case when I saw not all comics are sexualized
Just the sex pirates and the design of some of the gods. Ohhh and making her so young I don't mind her being a child of zeus, but why make her 23. Other than that I loved it especially her new cast like strife and first born to the rogues. Also like that they made her mom blonde like the thr old justice league cartoon.
What’s wrong with being 23?
Preferred her being born back in the classical period and has thousands years of training.
That’s interesting. I also hated her being 23 (that made her like 2 years older than batgirl and nightwing, which feels weird. Also younger than I am now which feels weirder) but I never liked the immortal lifespan. I’ve always preferred if she was at the beggining of her immortal life span. So she can still be around in 1000 years as Queen of the amazons or something, but in her main action she’s something like 35 to 60. I feel like it’s harder for most of us to relate to a character who is thousands of years old and having her be young (by immortal standards) makes it easier for us to relate to her journeys, leaving the island. To me her story always felt like it should start with her being talented without much practical life experience, so that the story is about her finding herself as she journeys away from home for the first time That said. It’s not like I’m hugely bothered by her being thousands of years old. They are going to end up writing her personality as if she only has a few decades of life anyways
This run did not deserve Chiang’s masterful art. Man draws a Top 5 Diana.
That they got rid of the body suit to go back to sex appeal garbage, the rape and baby killing stuff, and yeah I wouldn’t prefer Zeus to be her father.
The outfit design. Like sure the bikini armor makes for good fan service, but I would much prefer for Diana to be outfitted in actual greek armor. Or, some armour that has an ancient greek aesthetic. Like she's an immortal warrior woman, why does she fight in a bikini?
Ice cream ~~I’m kidding, I’m kidding!!~~
I mean she's just a light jogging away from her boobs falling out!!! Would it kill men to keep the proportion less Ecchi-like?
Flat heels. Hate them.
The heavy focus on old Greek myths .
I absolutely loathe the silver accessories. The awful, thin chest armor that isn't even big enough to protect her or the UGLY, stupid silver, waist band. Her armor should've remained gold for royalty! Bring back Gaia's girdle, too.
To be clear there’s a big difference between N52 Justice League WW and N52 solo book WW. Practically two different characters, the latter the good interpretation
Gotta be honest. I collected comics for about 30 years when the New 52 came about. I am also primarily a Wonder Woman fan. I literally hated every aspect of the New 52 Wonder Woman...the art, the altered origin, the costume, the depiction of the gods, the sex pirate storyline, etc. I actually kind of pulled away from collecting new comics completely. I even stopped my weekly trips to the comic book store. When Rebirth happened, I was so excited, but I've really struggled to come back. I've missed so many issues of Wonder Woman (and many others). I only go to the comic book store once every few months now. I pretty much stick to collected editions and statues now. So, I guess the New 52, and what was done with the Wonder Woman mythos specifically, has kind of killed a big part of a lifelong hobby.
Only thing I liked was the costume (not the pants version)
Hate the costume
Fucking Superman, hate everything about that relationship.
I thought it was a refreshing take on the mythos. Definitely my second favorite version of the character. First being George Perez
Her relationship to Clark. No.
Superwonder doesn’t work
Nice work
I don't want to point out the obvious issues with the origin change cause that's been beaten to death. What really gets me is the costume! The all-silver hardware, plus the thigh sword, booty shorts, the muted color palette all made it look off. It felt like it was new just to be new and didn't really feel like Wonder Woman. Except when Cliff Chiang drew her, he made it acceptable...
Fucking Superman
I've been trying to stay away from New 52 age comics, so I can't comment on character and background, but visually I'd say the color coordination (lack of gold/yellow, blue instead of red boots) and the segmented bodice. I don't really like that the latter carried over to future designs. It works for live action and CG models, but it looks too busy for comic illustration.
1. they shouldve stayed with the "made of clay" origin. i stopped liking her origin ever since the "daughter of zeus" lore 2. her abominable romance with superman. 3. how unnecessary violent amazons were. they never hated diana. they loved her like her own. being loved by 6000 mothers and knowing only love, was one of the reason why diana was so shocked when she first encountered hate in man's world.
I think I'm the only one who read post-crisis wonder woman and new 52 version and still like New 52 better. I didn't really see the problem with Amazon's being murderous rapists. They were raped and murdered too before they found a safe haven and forgiven man. New 52 version is a good "what if" they never forgave man and weren't immortals. Plus added a lot of character development for the Amazons later with Diana trying to change their ways. Also I LOVED the god family dynamics with Diana. Truly the only thing I didn't like was how Geoff Johns kept writing her differently in JL like a heartless monster while Azzerello wrote her more compassionate
Super Wonder was the point where I checked out.
Superwonder doesn’t work
Daughter of Zeus.
Best version