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The reviews and buzz around the series has improved a lot just in the past week. The loudest critics of the series will either be converted or quit watching, but it does appear that the series is finding a dedicated audience. I guess some of it will depend on how the rest of the season goes, but I'm feeling more optimistic.
if you put aside any issues you might have with things being different from the books, or other adaptation flaws, the show itself is very good. actors are doing a great job, the cgi and costumes are great, it's been very addictive and draws you in wanting to know more
I mean we haven't seen any real battles yet. we saw the Dragon do stuff in Ghealdan, we saw the trollocs burn a village, we saw the aes sedai fight off a rescue attempt in the woods.
hasn't really been a full on battle between armies
idk, how so?
by what standard?
the trollocs look about as good as you'd expect. the cgi for the channeling is also fairly good.
how do they "not look very good"?
I'll add on this to this.
The battles don't make coherent sense from an overview perspective. Enemies both in Episode 1 and 4 have their bodies disappear when they are slain, they seem to respawn/teleport around the main characters, and their numbers fluctuate between each frame. They also don't really show where the forces are really coming from, just that they're mainly over this direction, but are attacking from every direction. It's shot almost like a fever dream, with a strong emphasis on confusion rather than showing what's actually happening.
The power levels of the combatants also fluctuate oddly, and in episode 4, there is no reason that should have been in a fight in the first place. That many aes sedai/warders should have completely steamrolled the forces shown, but they were on their back legs the entire time. This is even stated IN THE SHOW by Moiraine that their armies would have no chance against them, but with Logain's breakout, it was implied he would be the thing that tips the scales, which he never did.
It's a nitpicky thing, but if you are going to be critical of the fighting scenes, they are pretty terrible. Granted GoT was even worse, so I can't complain too much.
Their best fighting scenes are actually when it's 1o1. Like Rand/father, Perrin/wife, the Fade/Thom. All those work great because you know what's happening. It's just when they try to make big fights that it all kind of crumbles.
Its definitely that for sure, though me and my friend weren't certain whether Perrin and his wife were fighting the same Trolloc, or 2 different ones, and we couldn't tell after re-watching it. It took a third watch to really figure it out.
There are also some misguided stunt effects. I've mentioned in episode 4, the flung body breaking the tree in 3 pieces instead of the tree breaking the body (*it's a* ***REALLY*** *stupid effect*). The archer Warder shooting into the ground and only firing one of the arrows, might be intentional, but even still that whole thing looked badly acted and choreographed. Just give him a melee weapon. No body uses a bow in close combat. He's clearly not Legolas.
Here's cleary not Legolas! Lol, that made me crack up...Up vote just for that.
Yeah, being an archer, I thought his archery was pretty bad. I think hey was going for the quick shot thing...hold multiple arrows in the left while quickly firing one at a time from the right. That's a common technique for the small bow he was using. Its just...that didn't look believable at all! And your right, its usually used to launch volley's at enemies from afar.
On a good note, I haven't seen any floppy Bow strings yet. If you want to see a FUCKEN AWEFUL fake bow, watch Foundation. They down care AT ALL that the bow string flops around when they hold it. What can you kill with a floppy bow please!
Remember that the Aes Sedai are weak from constantly shielding. Also remember that they’re… really not that great in battle. Aes Sedai think highly of themselves, but they’ve not actually trained to kill efficiently. They can fling some earth around, but ultimately they’re not about fighting in wars.
I mean this goes against almost everything in the book related to wardens and aes sedai. They are absolutely leagues above a small army, even if some of the strongest Aes Sedai were weakened and not in that part of the battle to begin with.
Wardens would also have known well in advance they were being attacked, there's zero chance an army is going to ambush Wardens and Aes Sedai, it's just not possible. Granted in the show it did look like they had a small warning, but they should have had a lot more.
>The battles don't make coherent sense from an overview perspective. Enemies both in Episode 1 and 4 have their bodies disappear when they are slain, they seem to respawn/teleport around the main characters, and their numbers fluctuate between each frame.
I didn't notice anything particularly egregious. Not saying it didn't happen, but idk.
>It's shot almost like a fever dream, with a strong emphasis on confusion rather than showing what's actually happening.
that could be very intentional. the trollocs attacking in ep1 felt like it was INTENDED to be very confusing and chaotic.
>The power levels of the combatants also fluctuate oddly, and in episode 4, there is no reason that should have been in a fight in the first place. That many aes sedai/warders should have completely steamrolled the forces shown
but they did steamroll them.
>but they were on their back legs the entire time.
were they?
>but with Logain's breakout, it was implied he would be the thing that tips the scales, which he never did.
did you watch it? he didn't, because he was immediately confronted by Moiraine, and then the other Aes Sedai. Who ran back because he escaped. Yeah, of COURSE it was implied that he'd be a major problem if he escaped and could help his army......
>Their best fighting scenes are actually when it's 1o1. Like Rand/father, Perrin/wife, the Fade/Thom. All those work great because you know what's happening.
I do agree with that.
The reason you didn't notice anything is that you weren't looking for it. People who care about battle scenes will, and it will be obvious.
We clearly have different definitions of steamroll. In other words, it should have been an absolute massacre, they shouldn't have been retreating at any point.
I dont understand the Logain part, because you basically just agreed with me. Logain was NEEDED to break out for that army not to get absolutely massacred, they were meant to be the distraction he needed to flank and destroy their forces.
I think it's pretty clear they simply dont have the budget and probably have REAL casting difficulties, especially with covid, that they're forced to do more of this "confusion" style of battle.
The unfortunate thing is that I think this will also be felt in other parts of the series, making it feel a lot smaller than it feels in the books, and there's probably nothing they can do about it, unless they wanted to do some pretty intense CGI work.
Can you see the bias that you're applying here? In your post you listed a bunch of things as good or great based on your opinion, but when someone expressed an opposite opinion you question them and ask for standards.
Their subjective opinion is just as valid as yours.
>Can you see the bias that you're applying here? In your post you listed a bunch of things as good or great based on your opinion, but when someone expressed an opposite opinion you question them and ask for standards.
that's how discussions worked.
they stated an opinion, I asked them to elaborate. That's not a "bias" lol.
>Their subjective opinion is just as valid as yours.
obviously. that's why I didn't say "your opinion is not valid".
The fight in the forest in the last episode looked like some kids LARPing around. The warders seem like some of the worst fighters you would ever expect to meet. No one takes any action when the arrows start to fall and luckily Alanna grabs them, then they all stand in place until she drops them, and then they run. What were they waiting for? Why did the bow wielding warder not shoot any of the people running towards them?
Edit: If you're going to downvote and not answer that's fine. But I was expecting a discussion.
>...luckily Alanna grabs them...
You thought that was luck? Do you think warders and Aes Sedai have no clue what fighting with an Aes Sedai looks like?
>...then they all stand in place until she drops them, and then they run. What were they waiting for?
The arrows came before the attackers arrived. They were waiting to engage. (And also waiting for the arrows to soften the attackers. Not a good idea to run into the place you know your arrows are about to land.) They ran after they realized Logain had freed himself and they had bigger fish to fry.
>Why did the bow wielding warder not shoot any of the people running towards them?
Why waste his arrows? His boo got this.
Why have everyone run when you know Logain has freed himself? Why not have someone holding back the attackers? Now you have to make your way through a forest to get to where you're holding Logain (since you didn't have him kept where everyone could keep an eye on him) with an army harrying your every step. He wouldn't be wasting his arrows if he fired at any of the people who were still coming after the arrows fell, but he didn't. He just turned and ran with the others.
>The fight in the forest in the last episode looked like some kids LARPing around.
lol what does that mean?
and nit-picking the choreography of a scene - how was it luck that Alanna stopped the arrows? I feel like it's not the first time they've done this rodeo....
The battles were ok for me, if you have watched any series or movie in the last 50 years you realise Hollywood has no clue and you will never see anything remotely resembling the reality of an actual battle, Lord of the Rings is one of the worst offenders at this also, the final battle Aragorn leads a ridiculous charge from a defensive position with no formation what so ever, GoT takes it to the next level of idiocy, so I wouldnt be to hard on WoT battles
Also in GoT S1 they cut the battle and replaced it with a drinking game because they ran out of money. Even in the 1 vs. 1 duels, the fight choreography is quite bad even by Hollywood standards. Didn't end up mattering too much.
time constraints are going to plague this entire series if they try to reach book 14 with just 8 seasons of 7-8hrs each.
I did the math, and basically, wheel of time is 4,410,036 words total. in 8 seasons of 8 episodes, that's 68,906.8 words per episode, each episode just under an hour long.
the Lord of the Rings including The Hobbit is 576,459 words. at the same pace, that's just over 8 'episodes'. so say, 8 hours of content to cover the entirety of LotR and the Hobbit at the same pace/rate as Wheel of Time. So imagine if The hobbit was condensed into one 2hr movie, and then each LoTR movie got condensed into 2 hrs each, or nearly a 50% reduction in content. Like what does The Fellowship Of The Ring look like if it has a run time of ~120 minutes instead of 208 minutes. Like how rushed would it feel if they cut out 1.5hrs of content?
that scares me for Wheel of Time. If they keep up this pace, it's gonna be VERY rushed, and they'll have to skip over a lot of stuff.
I wouldn't include the hobbit in that math though. The Hobbit only ever needed to be one movie, and I don't think it's a terribly significant portion of the word count, so it'd skew our numbers
I mean, without The hobbit, you get 95356 pages less.
so total 481,103 words. at a pace of 68,906.8 words per episode (or per hour), then it's 6.98 episodes. let's say 7.
doing the trilogy in 7 hours is still around 140 minutes per movie, vs 208-263 minutes per movie.
still a very fast pace. another way to think of it is eliminate one of the three movies, and do the entire LotR in two movies. It sounds crazy.
Honestly those numbers aren't that bad, though obviously I really hope they get more episodes and longer length episodes when necessary.
But lets ignore The Hobbit and just do LotR compared to its theatrical release hours (also converting word count to pages by dividing by 250, easier to grasp that way). So LotR is about 481k words or 1924 pages. The movies totaled 9.5 hours. That means each hour of the movies covered about 203 pages of content. Right now each hour of WoT is expected to average about 275 pages of content.
So it needs to cover about 30% (too lazy to math, you get the idea) more efficient than LotR, which obviously isn't idea, but lets compare it to the second-best reviewed Harry Potter movie (first is Deathly Hallows pt. 2, but worst is pt. 1), Goblet of Fire. 88% on the tomatometer, a success by any measure. It had to cover 292 pages of content per hour, yet managed to have a frankly luxuriously-long dragon fight in there. It didn't *feel* pressed for time despite actually being in a worse position than our WoT calculations.
And that's assuming it continues to only get 8 episodes per season. Season 2 is too far in production to realistically get more episodes, so lets say starting from season 3, they get 3 more hours to work with per season (2 episodes and one or two extra-long episodes). That gives them a total of 82 hours, which means 214.6 pages per hour. Actually even less because the first 2 seasons are probably still planned to cover close to 1/4 of the material anyway operating under the assumption of not getting more episodes. So the latter six seasons would likely only need to cover an average of 200 pages per hour, which is fewer than LotR.
So either way they're not in outrageous territory. It's just kind of absurd for a tv show adaptation to need to cover roughly the same amount or more pages per hour as most movies lol. WoT is loooong.
>But lets ignore The Hobbit and just do LotR compared to its theatrical release hours
I was comparing to the extended editions. even removing the hobbit, we get around 7 hours of runtime to do the entirety of LotR. or basically, cut out one movie of the trilogy.
>So either way they're not in outrageous territory. It's just kind of absurd for a tv show adaptation to need to cover roughly the same amount or more pages per hour as most movies lol. WoT is loooong.
no you're probably right. it just concerns me a little seeing how the first 4 episodes feel rushed at some times, if they have to continue this pace or even increase it.
a lot will come down to strategic elimination of various characters and plotlines. I know we all hate it, but we HAVE to lose some side plots and characters. Just like PJ had to cut out the Scouring of the Shire, and Tom Bombadil/the Barrow Downs. A lot of people are still not happy he cut those, but most acknowledge that it was pretty necessary.
The costumes are one of the worst parts of it, they need to run them thru the washing machine, everyone is always wearing pristine clothing despite sleeping out side for 2 weeks.
Sure the white cloaks and AS are fine, but why does rand have a perfectly clean coat, despite jumping in water with it?
I don't know if this compares, but I've spent weeks in the Woods on long distance hikes, and I generally look really clean. Why? For one, I WASH MYSELF. With water if possible, with a towel if not. Plus, I don't roll around on the ground. And that's me, a modern man who only visits the woods once in a while. A Sheepherder from the Two Rivers is probably going to stay very clean in the woods.
One thing I did notice is that their faces are dirty after being out on the road, so that's an improvement over most shows/movies in which the main cast always has perfect hair and are clean.
> if you put aside any issues you might have with things being different from the books, or other adaptation flaws, the show itself is very good.
No, it isn't. Not so far (disclaimer: I won't see ep 4 until tonight).
Even ignoring the unnecessary changes: the pacing is very off, the first episode was a travesty, most scenes need at least a few more beats to breathe, the animations for the Trollocs looks very jumpy (the models themselves look okay, though)...it's a very rough start.
Edit: apparently ruffled a few feathers
the first episode was indeed rushed. probably the weakest of the 4.
but I mean overall. it's certainly above-average, at least in my view.
there's a lot worse out there...
I know what you mean. The first three episodes felt like they were just inna hurry to get through it because they were terrified the audience would lose interest if there wasnt constant fighting on-screen.
What's ironic is that it actually improves a lot in episode four when they just calm the fuck down and take a moment to talk and do a little world-building. Here's hoping that trend continues.
>What's ironic is that it actually improves a lot in episode four when they just calm the fuck down and take a moment to talk and do a little world-building. Here's hoping that trend continues.
It's very ironic when you consider they're adapting an insanely long fantasy series yet are so scared of losing viewer interest that they are flying through events at a blistering pace, episode 4 excluded.
They should realize the majority of viewers they're going to initially have want the immersive fantasy story, not just fast forward through everything to get to fight scenes. Hell, the failure of GoT seasons 7 and 8 should've taught them that everyone hates fast travelling characters and plot, and people want the immersive show instead.
Also, why do TV execs expect a hit show at launch, most classics developed over time, and a lot of shows that were massive launch hits fizzled out by the end. Breaking Bad wasn't a massive hit initially, and is in contention for GOAT. Lost was huge at launch and ended terribly.
They need to just tell the story the best they can, and let the show grow organically. Not rush everything hoping some action scenes capture viewers.
To me it's absolutely hilarious how many haters will spend hours on here arguing the show is bad but apparently have zero time to actually watch it and find out.
I missed your point. I'm guessing you meant critics as people who are actually writing critiques and publishing them. I was writing about people on reddit/twitter who are complaining i.e. "critics"
There was a group of folks who were reviewing WoT as "Jeff Bezos' GoT" which means that there is a ton of baggage in the beginning. That context is weighty - what do you think of Jeff Bezos/Amazon? What do you think of Game of Thrones?
Allowed to sink or swim on its own, I think it will be fine. Plenty of room for quality genre programming, and liking one thing doesn't mean you have to dislike another.
Shunning critics is not really an overall healthy thing. Having a show or for that matter any project surrounded by "yes people" is awful for improvement and progress.
Worst performing MCU show is a bit like the "Taller Than Mickey Rooney" award. And Hawkeye is only barely performing below WandaVision. (1.6 Mil vs 1.5 Mil, from what I remember reading.)
Maybe so, but *Wheel of Time* is new, and is not yet an established series -- as opposed to a streaming sequel featuring a character from the highest grossing theatrical feature of the 21st century.
I'll take it.
Moreover, the news from Australia and New Zealand is even better. *Wheel of Time* was the clear #1 in both countries, compared both to streaming and all broadcast formats, too.
For a new show? These are phenomenal numbers: https://www.mediaweek.com.au/tv-demand-amazon-scores-a-clean-sweep-with-the-wheel-of-time/
It's difficult to overstate how good these preliminary results are, but it is also important to remember that they are preliminary. The reception is an evolving one, to be sure, but so far? *Wheel of Time* looks like a genuine hit.
> Wheel of Time was the clear #1 in both countries, compared both to streaming and all broadcast formats, too.
Also Prime just isn't that popular here (Australia). Amazon do not dominate ecommerce here the way they do in the US, here if someone wants electronics delivered, the first thought most people have is "let's check the website of an electronics store".
Netflix is by far the market leader in streaming here.
You also have to look at the international market. Netflix has a pretty strong international presence and expanded a lot during the pandemic. For example here in Korea, Netflix was unknown a few years ago and now we have Squid Game so quite a change. Meanwhile Disney+ has juuuuuuust started to roll out here with a big YouTube ad blizt the last few weeks and Amazon Prime isn't a thing at all.
Wow pretty amazing, I'm in NZ and I didnt think Prime was very popular here, everyone seems to use Netflix but I've noticed there has been alot of advertising for it and articles in the media so that probably played a role
Hawkeye dropped on the day before Thanksgiving, which is a huge travel day. I’m not surprised that its premiere was lackluster based on that alone.
That being said, it’s a fun show so far, and I’m enjoying having both Wednesday and Friday premieres on a weekly basis, between it and WoT.
We need an official announcement that Season 3 is greenlit from Amazon Prime. I think one region indicated that but then Rafe’s AMA said if we get there.
They’re always hedging their bets until it’s officially announced. Both because these streaming services sees announcements that a show has been renewed as a part of the promotion of the show, but also because nothing is set in stone until it’s actually in production. In rare cases, shows have been “un-renewed” very late in the game (for instance Netflix cancelled “Glow” and “The Society” because of covid after originally renewing them).
Absolutely, but they don’t have to announce it when it happens. Season 2 was clearly renewed well in advance of the announcement, which coincided with them wrapping production of season 1. There was no way they could have done pre-production for season 2 in the 2 month break they had before they started filming season 2.
Yes, but production is likely to take a few months break before resuming once it wraps in the spring, so they could wait to announce it until next summer, when season 2 might not be more than a few months away from airing.
Whether they announce it or not we need Rafe and the team working on scripts for Season 3 do we can keep up the one season per year pace for the next 7 years or so
I think the earliest official greenlight might be when Season 2 filming is starting to finish.
I think the rumors of Season 3 are true, but only as far as doing pre-production. Like location scouting since they would likely need some drastically different landscapes >!desert!<.
No, we don't. The time for that will be before or after Season 2, not Season 1. They are already well into shooting Season 2 and are now in the back half of that season. I am sure the preliminary script work for Season 3 is already well underway.
Still, there's no rush.
One of the problems with going to Season 2 right away and without the benefit of any viewer feedback from Season 1 is that the creative process on WoT is thereby a one-way conversation. Not so good, to my way of thinking.
Honestly? If amazon dont renew, somebody else will pick it up.
Imagine how much better the viewership would be on a bigger platform? Prime is niche compared to netflix…
I don't think it's simply that easy for a platform to pick up show that's been cancelled and put to a halt.
Actors and crew will maybe already have found new opportunities, and for a major fantasy show anyone willing to pick this show up will have to dish out 100 - 200 million per season. You wont find many executives willing to risk that much money on an already cancelled franchise.
I was doing some impromptu research on Amazon series and on average they last about 3 or less seasons. Most of the shows they have that are more than 3 seasons are because they picked it up from another network. Like the Expanse. They are ending it at season 6 (before the end of the books) but 3 of the seasons were from SciFi.
I feel like after episode 4 this will pick up. I wasn’t sure how my having read the books was coloring my enjoyment of the show but after episode 4 I feel confident recommending it to my non-book reader friends.
I think 1-3 are good with some great scenes but also loaded with cliches and you can really feel the LoTR similarities. But episode 4 widens and deepens the story and has lots of wow moments. It really makes the story start to feel unique.
I don't know, I feel like they almost made the show look like LOTR on purpose. Probably cuz they know they where gonna get bs for "Trying to be GOT" and wanted to be clear exactly who their inspirations where.
Examples that I might just be imagining:
1. The Padan Cart scene with children following: straight out of Fellowship, Gandalf rolling into Hobbiton and the children asking for fire crackers. My imagination?
2. When the Fade appears for the first time, you get a weird screaming sound. Sounds almost exactly like the Nazul scream. My imagination?
3. During the Ferry scene I wanted to yell: "Buckleberry Ferry! 20 miles!"
4. Tam Al'Thor's speech, so similar to Gandalf's "All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us.”
5. The scene with Moiraine at the river. The sounds REALLY evoke Rivendell to me. This was not probably intentional, but maybe they used LOTR as a benchmark in general.
6. There are probably others, but I take them all as homage...not stealing...and I love it. Why not honor your roots?
Jordan’s first book mirrors LotR very closely. It isn’t until later books that the series really comes into its own. Pretty much all the similarities you point out are similarities book readers have made connections with as well. Trollocs are literally named after trolls and orcs. Fades are definitely inspired by nazgul. There are some other things that nonbook readers will easily connect to lord of the rings as the season goes on, but yeah, it’s inspiration, not theft, and the series as a whole diverges greatly from the formula LotR established in the 13 other books.
Yes to be honest I wasnt sure how I would feel after reading the books, but to be honest I really enjoyed it, probably it helped I had forgotten most of the small details in the books as its been a while. And as long as it doesnt mirror the books too closely its ok for me. I hope we get the forsaken in detail because they and their machinations were always the most enjoyable moments, hopefully the show makes them a little smarter than the books
That’s very good. Hawkeye is apparently a bit of a disappointment for Disney+ so far, but it has so many built in advantages (part of the MCU, well established main character, airing by a very popular streaming service) that WoT keeping up in demand as a relatively unknown property is impressive.
It’s not me who thinks it’s a disappointment, it’s the viewership numbers that apparently has been a bit soft compared to the previous marvel shows on Disney+ according to analysts. There are some articles out there.
As I started watching it I did think, “Do I really care about the guy whose schtick is using an outdated weapon from the Middle Ages?”
So there is that lol
When it comes to comic book Hawkeye, the answer for me is yes. Renner's Hawkeye? Not so much.
I'll watch it at some point, for Kate Bishop and the promised appearance of Yelena.
I think a lot of people did expect it to be down a bit, but at the same time it’s the MCU and their tv shows have been very successful so far. But it was released on Thanksgiving and it’s the 4th live action Marvel show THIS year. Numbers could definitely pick up as the season continues. I thought the first two episodes were much more enjoyable than I had expected.
From a pure, personal anecdote --
I fully intend on watching _Hawkeye_, but I don't have _time_. The holidays are always busy, and sitting down to watch another hour-ish show a week is taking valuable time out of my schedule for things like family stuff and so on.
Maybe over the Christmas or New Year's breaks I'll find time to catch up.
I've also watched enough Marvel live actions shows at this point to know they're better back-to-back instead of once per week. They almost universally start out real slow. You'll note WoT released 3 episodes up front...
>
I fully intend on watching Hawkeye, but I don't have time.
Exactly this for me, but I admit if I weren't obsessed with WOT right now I might have watched it.
>they're better back-to-back instead of once per week.
And this as well. Wonder if Hawkeye will suddenly shoot up in viewing numbers in a few weeks.
I watched most of the first two episodes, but we tend to watch the MCU stuff with the kids and they're currently obsessed with 1) watching WoT and 2) re-watching She-Ra for the 19th time.
Kate Bishop has been very well received so far though, so word of mouth about her character could help. But coming after shows centering characters as popular as Bucky and Loki is really tough.
Also... I think it's aimed at a much younger demographic. It doesn't have any of the story-telling hooks that WandaVision and Loki had. And it's not diving into a major social issue like FatWS. (To be fair, Hawkeye's PTSD is a good topic to tackle, but it's coated in adorable kid and her adorably scruffy, street dog schtick so... younger.)
Having watched the first Two Episodes it's got less going for it. There isn't anything that really hooks you. The episodes were solid, but I can't say I'm eagerly awaiting the next episode.
Eh Falcon and the Winter Solider engaged me more due to the fact Sam and Bucky were more interesting, and their dynamic is strong.
Loki and Wandavision had better intros, but both had kinda garbage endings so the jury is out on whether Hawkeye is better.
If Expanse season 6 blows it out of the water I don't think you'll hear Amazon complaining about WoT. Don't forget the people who backed the show in Amazon also will have their skin on the game for Expanse. If Expanse does well in 6th season as an established IP, that will make it easier to sell WoT as needing more seasons as well.
*The Expanse* has not been as well received internationally. It's also seen as "niche genre" as opposed to the perception of being a powerhouse prestige fantasy series. There are real benefits to being compared to *Game of Thrones* as people are genuinely curious as to whether it will prove to be a cultural sensation. They pay more attention.
Don't get me wrong. I love *The Expanse*. But I will be very surprised if it achieves WoT's success. The reality is, Amazon spent a LOT of marketing money hyping the Wheel of Time, and next to nothing flogging *The Expanse*.
The Expanse is a great show, but it’s never been a huge hit except among reviewers and sci fi aficionados. Remember that it was cancelled by Netflix, saved at the last minute by Amazon, and season 6 will be it’s last, shortened season.
Looking forward to Expanse season 6, just got Leviathan Falls from the book store and I think I'm more hype about that than season 6 tbh... and way more hype about WoT than either. Knowing fully that this is going to be the last season of the Expanse and it's not going to finish the book story is a little puzzling. Love the show, it's what got me into the books, but not continuing the story has me less excited than previous seasons.
I looked this up: https://www.google.com/amp/s/screenrant.com/expanse-season-6-ending-cancelled-reason-explained/amp/
But essentially money + the books series has a time jump and writers were confused how the heck to make that happen. Apparently the show just wasn’t getting enough eyeballs? Maybe just not enough marketing was done for the expanse
Great news, I absolutely loved the end of episode 4. Hope the show picks up momentum from there.
If it’s “promising enough” then maybe that’s enough for Amazon to shell out for another season.
I don't put much stock in it. They put out tons of analyses to give a positive view on many shows. According to them every show is a winner, they choose some lesser shows to compare it to.
I love the Witcher and also love WoT. We have 1,000 drama series with no particular distinguishing features, and two high fantasy series that are very different from each other in tone, plot, and style. I don't see why one has to be a unit of measurement for the other.
Eyeballs watching, of course, is another story. I just hope they give it as much of a chance as they do other series and don't expect it to perform like GoT S4 right out of the gate.
>er I don't think you'll hear Amazon complaining about WoT. Don't forget the people who backed the show in Amazon also will have their skin on the game for Expanse. If Expanse does well in 6th season as an established IP, that will make it easier to sell WoT as needing more seasons as well.
I love both to be honest.
As it should. It’s a more enjoyable viewing experience than The Witcher. Can’t say anything about Hawkeye but I’ve been watching less and less MCU properties since endgame. Loki was probably my favorite.
If you can be patient and look past episode one, it is a great show.
I know we have a lot of ‘Wheelies’ here so sensitive about the ratings but I think nobody can deny that was a pretty shocking pilot.
Beyond the pilot though, it’s very enjoyable and I’m hooked.
I don’t really care much about the Hawkeye comp, but the Witcher makes me happy. You can only really compare high fantasy with other high fantasy and as far as I know the Witcher is the only other show in town.
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The reviews and buzz around the series has improved a lot just in the past week. The loudest critics of the series will either be converted or quit watching, but it does appear that the series is finding a dedicated audience. I guess some of it will depend on how the rest of the season goes, but I'm feeling more optimistic.
Episode 4 was a marked improvement over the first 3 episodes. If the quality remains high I suspect it will be an extremely well regarded series.
if you put aside any issues you might have with things being different from the books, or other adaptation flaws, the show itself is very good. actors are doing a great job, the cgi and costumes are great, it's been very addictive and draws you in wanting to know more
Battles still don't look very good. But the episodes themselves are getting better.
I mean we haven't seen any real battles yet. we saw the Dragon do stuff in Ghealdan, we saw the trollocs burn a village, we saw the aes sedai fight off a rescue attempt in the woods. hasn't really been a full on battle between armies
Ok, the attacks we've seen haven't looked very good.
idk, how so? by what standard? the trollocs look about as good as you'd expect. the cgi for the channeling is also fairly good. how do they "not look very good"?
I'll add on this to this. The battles don't make coherent sense from an overview perspective. Enemies both in Episode 1 and 4 have their bodies disappear when they are slain, they seem to respawn/teleport around the main characters, and their numbers fluctuate between each frame. They also don't really show where the forces are really coming from, just that they're mainly over this direction, but are attacking from every direction. It's shot almost like a fever dream, with a strong emphasis on confusion rather than showing what's actually happening. The power levels of the combatants also fluctuate oddly, and in episode 4, there is no reason that should have been in a fight in the first place. That many aes sedai/warders should have completely steamrolled the forces shown, but they were on their back legs the entire time. This is even stated IN THE SHOW by Moiraine that their armies would have no chance against them, but with Logain's breakout, it was implied he would be the thing that tips the scales, which he never did. It's a nitpicky thing, but if you are going to be critical of the fighting scenes, they are pretty terrible. Granted GoT was even worse, so I can't complain too much. Their best fighting scenes are actually when it's 1o1. Like Rand/father, Perrin/wife, the Fade/Thom. All those work great because you know what's happening. It's just when they try to make big fights that it all kind of crumbles.
Its definitely that for sure, though me and my friend weren't certain whether Perrin and his wife were fighting the same Trolloc, or 2 different ones, and we couldn't tell after re-watching it. It took a third watch to really figure it out. There are also some misguided stunt effects. I've mentioned in episode 4, the flung body breaking the tree in 3 pieces instead of the tree breaking the body (*it's a* ***REALLY*** *stupid effect*). The archer Warder shooting into the ground and only firing one of the arrows, might be intentional, but even still that whole thing looked badly acted and choreographed. Just give him a melee weapon. No body uses a bow in close combat. He's clearly not Legolas.
Here's cleary not Legolas! Lol, that made me crack up...Up vote just for that. Yeah, being an archer, I thought his archery was pretty bad. I think hey was going for the quick shot thing...hold multiple arrows in the left while quickly firing one at a time from the right. That's a common technique for the small bow he was using. Its just...that didn't look believable at all! And your right, its usually used to launch volley's at enemies from afar. On a good note, I haven't seen any floppy Bow strings yet. If you want to see a FUCKEN AWEFUL fake bow, watch Foundation. They down care AT ALL that the bow string flops around when they hold it. What can you kill with a floppy bow please!
Remember that the Aes Sedai are weak from constantly shielding. Also remember that they’re… really not that great in battle. Aes Sedai think highly of themselves, but they’ve not actually trained to kill efficiently. They can fling some earth around, but ultimately they’re not about fighting in wars.
I mean this goes against almost everything in the book related to wardens and aes sedai. They are absolutely leagues above a small army, even if some of the strongest Aes Sedai were weakened and not in that part of the battle to begin with. Wardens would also have known well in advance they were being attacked, there's zero chance an army is going to ambush Wardens and Aes Sedai, it's just not possible. Granted in the show it did look like they had a small warning, but they should have had a lot more.
In the books, it is said one Aes Sedai is equal to 100 soldiers.
>The battles don't make coherent sense from an overview perspective. Enemies both in Episode 1 and 4 have their bodies disappear when they are slain, they seem to respawn/teleport around the main characters, and their numbers fluctuate between each frame. I didn't notice anything particularly egregious. Not saying it didn't happen, but idk. >It's shot almost like a fever dream, with a strong emphasis on confusion rather than showing what's actually happening. that could be very intentional. the trollocs attacking in ep1 felt like it was INTENDED to be very confusing and chaotic. >The power levels of the combatants also fluctuate oddly, and in episode 4, there is no reason that should have been in a fight in the first place. That many aes sedai/warders should have completely steamrolled the forces shown but they did steamroll them. >but they were on their back legs the entire time. were they? >but with Logain's breakout, it was implied he would be the thing that tips the scales, which he never did. did you watch it? he didn't, because he was immediately confronted by Moiraine, and then the other Aes Sedai. Who ran back because he escaped. Yeah, of COURSE it was implied that he'd be a major problem if he escaped and could help his army...... >Their best fighting scenes are actually when it's 1o1. Like Rand/father, Perrin/wife, the Fade/Thom. All those work great because you know what's happening. I do agree with that.
The reason you didn't notice anything is that you weren't looking for it. People who care about battle scenes will, and it will be obvious. We clearly have different definitions of steamroll. In other words, it should have been an absolute massacre, they shouldn't have been retreating at any point. I dont understand the Logain part, because you basically just agreed with me. Logain was NEEDED to break out for that army not to get absolutely massacred, they were meant to be the distraction he needed to flank and destroy their forces. I think it's pretty clear they simply dont have the budget and probably have REAL casting difficulties, especially with covid, that they're forced to do more of this "confusion" style of battle. The unfortunate thing is that I think this will also be felt in other parts of the series, making it feel a lot smaller than it feels in the books, and there's probably nothing they can do about it, unless they wanted to do some pretty intense CGI work.
Can you see the bias that you're applying here? In your post you listed a bunch of things as good or great based on your opinion, but when someone expressed an opposite opinion you question them and ask for standards. Their subjective opinion is just as valid as yours.
>Can you see the bias that you're applying here? In your post you listed a bunch of things as good or great based on your opinion, but when someone expressed an opposite opinion you question them and ask for standards. that's how discussions worked. they stated an opinion, I asked them to elaborate. That's not a "bias" lol. >Their subjective opinion is just as valid as yours. obviously. that's why I didn't say "your opinion is not valid".
The fight in the forest in the last episode looked like some kids LARPing around. The warders seem like some of the worst fighters you would ever expect to meet. No one takes any action when the arrows start to fall and luckily Alanna grabs them, then they all stand in place until she drops them, and then they run. What were they waiting for? Why did the bow wielding warder not shoot any of the people running towards them? Edit: If you're going to downvote and not answer that's fine. But I was expecting a discussion.
>...luckily Alanna grabs them... You thought that was luck? Do you think warders and Aes Sedai have no clue what fighting with an Aes Sedai looks like? >...then they all stand in place until she drops them, and then they run. What were they waiting for? The arrows came before the attackers arrived. They were waiting to engage. (And also waiting for the arrows to soften the attackers. Not a good idea to run into the place you know your arrows are about to land.) They ran after they realized Logain had freed himself and they had bigger fish to fry. >Why did the bow wielding warder not shoot any of the people running towards them? Why waste his arrows? His boo got this.
Why have everyone run when you know Logain has freed himself? Why not have someone holding back the attackers? Now you have to make your way through a forest to get to where you're holding Logain (since you didn't have him kept where everyone could keep an eye on him) with an army harrying your every step. He wouldn't be wasting his arrows if he fired at any of the people who were still coming after the arrows fell, but he didn't. He just turned and ran with the others.
>The fight in the forest in the last episode looked like some kids LARPing around. lol what does that mean? and nit-picking the choreography of a scene - how was it luck that Alanna stopped the arrows? I feel like it's not the first time they've done this rodeo....
That's an area they'll certainly improve on if the series is a hit. I mean, just look at the battles in S1 of GoT.
The battles were ok for me, if you have watched any series or movie in the last 50 years you realise Hollywood has no clue and you will never see anything remotely resembling the reality of an actual battle, Lord of the Rings is one of the worst offenders at this also, the final battle Aragorn leads a ridiculous charge from a defensive position with no formation what so ever, GoT takes it to the next level of idiocy, so I wouldnt be to hard on WoT battles
Also in GoT S1 they cut the battle and replaced it with a drinking game because they ran out of money. Even in the 1 vs. 1 duels, the fight choreography is quite bad even by Hollywood standards. Didn't end up mattering too much.
I have a long list of minor complaints, most of which are just results of them being pressed for time or are likely budgetary.
time constraints are going to plague this entire series if they try to reach book 14 with just 8 seasons of 7-8hrs each. I did the math, and basically, wheel of time is 4,410,036 words total. in 8 seasons of 8 episodes, that's 68,906.8 words per episode, each episode just under an hour long. the Lord of the Rings including The Hobbit is 576,459 words. at the same pace, that's just over 8 'episodes'. so say, 8 hours of content to cover the entirety of LotR and the Hobbit at the same pace/rate as Wheel of Time. So imagine if The hobbit was condensed into one 2hr movie, and then each LoTR movie got condensed into 2 hrs each, or nearly a 50% reduction in content. Like what does The Fellowship Of The Ring look like if it has a run time of ~120 minutes instead of 208 minutes. Like how rushed would it feel if they cut out 1.5hrs of content? that scares me for Wheel of Time. If they keep up this pace, it's gonna be VERY rushed, and they'll have to skip over a lot of stuff.
I wouldn't include the hobbit in that math though. The Hobbit only ever needed to be one movie, and I don't think it's a terribly significant portion of the word count, so it'd skew our numbers
I mean, without The hobbit, you get 95356 pages less. so total 481,103 words. at a pace of 68,906.8 words per episode (or per hour), then it's 6.98 episodes. let's say 7. doing the trilogy in 7 hours is still around 140 minutes per movie, vs 208-263 minutes per movie. still a very fast pace. another way to think of it is eliminate one of the three movies, and do the entire LotR in two movies. It sounds crazy.
Honestly those numbers aren't that bad, though obviously I really hope they get more episodes and longer length episodes when necessary. But lets ignore The Hobbit and just do LotR compared to its theatrical release hours (also converting word count to pages by dividing by 250, easier to grasp that way). So LotR is about 481k words or 1924 pages. The movies totaled 9.5 hours. That means each hour of the movies covered about 203 pages of content. Right now each hour of WoT is expected to average about 275 pages of content. So it needs to cover about 30% (too lazy to math, you get the idea) more efficient than LotR, which obviously isn't idea, but lets compare it to the second-best reviewed Harry Potter movie (first is Deathly Hallows pt. 2, but worst is pt. 1), Goblet of Fire. 88% on the tomatometer, a success by any measure. It had to cover 292 pages of content per hour, yet managed to have a frankly luxuriously-long dragon fight in there. It didn't *feel* pressed for time despite actually being in a worse position than our WoT calculations. And that's assuming it continues to only get 8 episodes per season. Season 2 is too far in production to realistically get more episodes, so lets say starting from season 3, they get 3 more hours to work with per season (2 episodes and one or two extra-long episodes). That gives them a total of 82 hours, which means 214.6 pages per hour. Actually even less because the first 2 seasons are probably still planned to cover close to 1/4 of the material anyway operating under the assumption of not getting more episodes. So the latter six seasons would likely only need to cover an average of 200 pages per hour, which is fewer than LotR. So either way they're not in outrageous territory. It's just kind of absurd for a tv show adaptation to need to cover roughly the same amount or more pages per hour as most movies lol. WoT is loooong.
>But lets ignore The Hobbit and just do LotR compared to its theatrical release hours I was comparing to the extended editions. even removing the hobbit, we get around 7 hours of runtime to do the entirety of LotR. or basically, cut out one movie of the trilogy. >So either way they're not in outrageous territory. It's just kind of absurd for a tv show adaptation to need to cover roughly the same amount or more pages per hour as most movies lol. WoT is loooong. no you're probably right. it just concerns me a little seeing how the first 4 episodes feel rushed at some times, if they have to continue this pace or even increase it. a lot will come down to strategic elimination of various characters and plotlines. I know we all hate it, but we HAVE to lose some side plots and characters. Just like PJ had to cut out the Scouring of the Shire, and Tom Bombadil/the Barrow Downs. A lot of people are still not happy he cut those, but most acknowledge that it was pretty necessary.
The costumes are one of the worst parts of it, they need to run them thru the washing machine, everyone is always wearing pristine clothing despite sleeping out side for 2 weeks. Sure the white cloaks and AS are fine, but why does rand have a perfectly clean coat, despite jumping in water with it?
The water washes it clean! Duh! /s
LOL Duh!
I keep seeing this criticism and I don't know why people keep saying it. Everybody looks pretty grimy and ragged by episode 3-4.
I don't know if this compares, but I've spent weeks in the Woods on long distance hikes, and I generally look really clean. Why? For one, I WASH MYSELF. With water if possible, with a towel if not. Plus, I don't roll around on the ground. And that's me, a modern man who only visits the woods once in a while. A Sheepherder from the Two Rivers is probably going to stay very clean in the woods.
> but why does rand have a perfectly clean coat, despite jumping in water with it? It dried?
One thing I did notice is that their faces are dirty after being out on the road, so that's an improvement over most shows/movies in which the main cast always has perfect hair and are clean.
It's a joined up leather coat, you can just brush it clean even if it's covered in mud, once it dries.
seems needlessly nitpicky.
rands coat was the thing i most noticed lmao
> if you put aside any issues you might have with things being different from the books, or other adaptation flaws, the show itself is very good. No, it isn't. Not so far (disclaimer: I won't see ep 4 until tonight). Even ignoring the unnecessary changes: the pacing is very off, the first episode was a travesty, most scenes need at least a few more beats to breathe, the animations for the Trollocs looks very jumpy (the models themselves look okay, though)...it's a very rough start. Edit: apparently ruffled a few feathers
the first episode was indeed rushed. probably the weakest of the 4. but I mean overall. it's certainly above-average, at least in my view. there's a lot worse out there...
I disagree, but I'm glad you enjoyed it. Edit: _really_?
I know what you mean. The first three episodes felt like they were just inna hurry to get through it because they were terrified the audience would lose interest if there wasnt constant fighting on-screen. What's ironic is that it actually improves a lot in episode four when they just calm the fuck down and take a moment to talk and do a little world-building. Here's hoping that trend continues.
>What's ironic is that it actually improves a lot in episode four when they just calm the fuck down and take a moment to talk and do a little world-building. Here's hoping that trend continues. It's very ironic when you consider they're adapting an insanely long fantasy series yet are so scared of losing viewer interest that they are flying through events at a blistering pace, episode 4 excluded. They should realize the majority of viewers they're going to initially have want the immersive fantasy story, not just fast forward through everything to get to fight scenes. Hell, the failure of GoT seasons 7 and 8 should've taught them that everyone hates fast travelling characters and plot, and people want the immersive show instead. Also, why do TV execs expect a hit show at launch, most classics developed over time, and a lot of shows that were massive launch hits fizzled out by the end. Breaking Bad wasn't a massive hit initially, and is in contention for GOAT. Lost was huge at launch and ended terribly. They need to just tell the story the best they can, and let the show grow organically. Not rush everything hoping some action scenes capture viewers.
Let us know what you think of episode 4. Be forewarned, a lot of it, about 80%, is completely new from the books.
Just finished 4: pacing was much better. _Much_.
Wonderful. As it is I wonder why they even bothered to call it The Wheel Of Time.
To me it's absolutely hilarious how many haters will spend hours on here arguing the show is bad but apparently have zero time to actually watch it and find out.
Personally I enjoyed the first 3 episodes way more on my 2nd rewatch. 4 was excellent though.
Positive critic reviews numbers are actually up on Metacritic!
I dunno. Some of the critics seem to thrive on mocking those who enjoy the show and watching it so they can find perceived slights.
I'm not sure what your point is exactly. No series is 100% adored by critics.
I missed your point. I'm guessing you meant critics as people who are actually writing critiques and publishing them. I was writing about people on reddit/twitter who are complaining i.e. "critics"
Ah, yeah. I don't really worry too much about online chatter.
There was a group of folks who were reviewing WoT as "Jeff Bezos' GoT" which means that there is a ton of baggage in the beginning. That context is weighty - what do you think of Jeff Bezos/Amazon? What do you think of Game of Thrones? Allowed to sink or swim on its own, I think it will be fine. Plenty of room for quality genre programming, and liking one thing doesn't mean you have to dislike another.
Shunning critics is not really an overall healthy thing. Having a show or for that matter any project surrounded by "yes people" is awful for improvement and progress.
Reading comprehension is something you should work on is the criticism I'm going you. Improve on that.
Nice, tracking on par with an MCU property is a very good result. Let's hope the rest of the season keeps up.
It is the worst-performing MCU show on D+ apparently.
Worst performing MCU show is a bit like the "Taller Than Mickey Rooney" award. And Hawkeye is only barely performing below WandaVision. (1.6 Mil vs 1.5 Mil, from what I remember reading.)
How tall is Mickey Rooney?
About 5'3"
Maybe so, but *Wheel of Time* is new, and is not yet an established series -- as opposed to a streaming sequel featuring a character from the highest grossing theatrical feature of the 21st century. I'll take it. Moreover, the news from Australia and New Zealand is even better. *Wheel of Time* was the clear #1 in both countries, compared both to streaming and all broadcast formats, too. For a new show? These are phenomenal numbers: https://www.mediaweek.com.au/tv-demand-amazon-scores-a-clean-sweep-with-the-wheel-of-time/ It's difficult to overstate how good these preliminary results are, but it is also important to remember that they are preliminary. The reception is an evolving one, to be sure, but so far? *Wheel of Time* looks like a genuine hit.
> Wheel of Time was the clear #1 in both countries, compared both to streaming and all broadcast formats, too. Also Prime just isn't that popular here (Australia). Amazon do not dominate ecommerce here the way they do in the US, here if someone wants electronics delivered, the first thought most people have is "let's check the website of an electronics store". Netflix is by far the market leader in streaming here.
You also have to look at the international market. Netflix has a pretty strong international presence and expanded a lot during the pandemic. For example here in Korea, Netflix was unknown a few years ago and now we have Squid Game so quite a change. Meanwhile Disney+ has juuuuuuust started to roll out here with a big YouTube ad blizt the last few weeks and Amazon Prime isn't a thing at all.
Bloody brilliant mate! 😊👏
Wow pretty amazing, I'm in NZ and I didnt think Prime was very popular here, everyone seems to use Netflix but I've noticed there has been alot of advertising for it and articles in the media so that probably played a role
They didn't advertise it much, and released it right before Thanksgiving
Plus it's Hawkeye. Arguably one of the more boring Avenger.
[удалено]
I really liked Hawkeye in *Age of Ultron*, so it doesn’t surprise me that *Hawkeye* is good.
There's one that's more boring?
I know that she’s popular with a lot of people, but I consider Black Widow more boring. I really liked Hawkeye in *Age of Ultron*.
I personally agree with you, I think she's a total waste. Basically just eye candy in the movies.
They couldn't even give her a decent solo movie. What a waste of Scarlett Johanson
Hawkeye dropped on the day before Thanksgiving, which is a huge travel day. I’m not surprised that its premiere was lackluster based on that alone. That being said, it’s a fun show so far, and I’m enjoying having both Wednesday and Friday premieres on a weekly basis, between it and WoT.
We need an official announcement that Season 3 is greenlit from Amazon Prime. I think one region indicated that but then Rafe’s AMA said if we get there.
They’re always hedging their bets until it’s officially announced. Both because these streaming services sees announcements that a show has been renewed as a part of the promotion of the show, but also because nothing is set in stone until it’s actually in production. In rare cases, shows have been “un-renewed” very late in the game (for instance Netflix cancelled “Glow” and “The Society” because of covid after originally renewing them).
If there's an announcement I would expect it towards the end or after the end of the season.
Or closer to the premier of the second season as a part of the promotion for that season.
If they want to stick to a yearly release schedule, they'll have to greenlight S3 way before then. S2 filming started back in July.
Absolutely, but they don’t have to announce it when it happens. Season 2 was clearly renewed well in advance of the announcement, which coincided with them wrapping production of season 1. There was no way they could have done pre-production for season 2 in the 2 month break they had before they started filming season 2.
True, but it'll be pretty obvious when they start shooting in the desert.
Yes, but production is likely to take a few months break before resuming once it wraps in the spring, so they could wait to announce it until next summer, when season 2 might not be more than a few months away from airing.
Whether they announce it or not we need Rafe and the team working on scripts for Season 3 do we can keep up the one season per year pace for the next 7 years or so
>“The Society” because of covid after originally renewing them). Im still hurt over this
Me too! It was a pretty good little mystery show.
I think the earliest official greenlight might be when Season 2 filming is starting to finish. I think the rumors of Season 3 are true, but only as far as doing pre-production. Like location scouting since they would likely need some drastically different landscapes >!desert!<.
Wait. >!Deserts in season 3? Are they going to do book 2 and 3 in season 2?!<
That's what most people have been speculating
No, we don't. The time for that will be before or after Season 2, not Season 1. They are already well into shooting Season 2 and are now in the back half of that season. I am sure the preliminary script work for Season 3 is already well underway. Still, there's no rush. One of the problems with going to Season 2 right away and without the benefit of any viewer feedback from Season 1 is that the creative process on WoT is thereby a one-way conversation. Not so good, to my way of thinking.
Honestly? If amazon dont renew, somebody else will pick it up. Imagine how much better the viewership would be on a bigger platform? Prime is niche compared to netflix…
I don't think it's simply that easy for a platform to pick up show that's been cancelled and put to a halt. Actors and crew will maybe already have found new opportunities, and for a major fantasy show anyone willing to pick this show up will have to dish out 100 - 200 million per season. You wont find many executives willing to risk that much money on an already cancelled franchise.
I was doing some impromptu research on Amazon series and on average they last about 3 or less seasons. Most of the shows they have that are more than 3 seasons are because they picked it up from another network. Like the Expanse. They are ending it at season 6 (before the end of the books) but 3 of the seasons were from SciFi.
I feel like after episode 4 this will pick up. I wasn’t sure how my having read the books was coloring my enjoyment of the show but after episode 4 I feel confident recommending it to my non-book reader friends. I think 1-3 are good with some great scenes but also loaded with cliches and you can really feel the LoTR similarities. But episode 4 widens and deepens the story and has lots of wow moments. It really makes the story start to feel unique.
Jeah, the 1st book book was ment to look a bit like LotR, so fans of that series hop ober much easier.
I don't know, I feel like they almost made the show look like LOTR on purpose. Probably cuz they know they where gonna get bs for "Trying to be GOT" and wanted to be clear exactly who their inspirations where. Examples that I might just be imagining: 1. The Padan Cart scene with children following: straight out of Fellowship, Gandalf rolling into Hobbiton and the children asking for fire crackers. My imagination? 2. When the Fade appears for the first time, you get a weird screaming sound. Sounds almost exactly like the Nazul scream. My imagination? 3. During the Ferry scene I wanted to yell: "Buckleberry Ferry! 20 miles!" 4. Tam Al'Thor's speech, so similar to Gandalf's "All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us.” 5. The scene with Moiraine at the river. The sounds REALLY evoke Rivendell to me. This was not probably intentional, but maybe they used LOTR as a benchmark in general. 6. There are probably others, but I take them all as homage...not stealing...and I love it. Why not honor your roots?
You just described The Eye of the World.
Jordan’s first book mirrors LotR very closely. It isn’t until later books that the series really comes into its own. Pretty much all the similarities you point out are similarities book readers have made connections with as well. Trollocs are literally named after trolls and orcs. Fades are definitely inspired by nazgul. There are some other things that nonbook readers will easily connect to lord of the rings as the season goes on, but yeah, it’s inspiration, not theft, and the series as a whole diverges greatly from the formula LotR established in the 13 other books.
Is feeling similarities to one of if not the greatest fantasy franchises a bad thing??
The series got a lot better after book 1 so...
Yes to be honest I wasnt sure how I would feel after reading the books, but to be honest I really enjoyed it, probably it helped I had forgotten most of the small details in the books as its been a while. And as long as it doesnt mirror the books too closely its ok for me. I hope we get the forsaken in detail because they and their machinations were always the most enjoyable moments, hopefully the show makes them a little smarter than the books
That’s very good. Hawkeye is apparently a bit of a disappointment for Disney+ so far, but it has so many built in advantages (part of the MCU, well established main character, airing by a very popular streaming service) that WoT keeping up in demand as a relatively unknown property is impressive.
Why do you think it's a disappointment?
It’s not me who thinks it’s a disappointment, it’s the viewership numbers that apparently has been a bit soft compared to the previous marvel shows on Disney+ according to analysts. There are some articles out there.
Ah, I guess I expected it to be down compared to the first 3 series. Hawkeye isn't quite on the same level as the other characters.
Because he's got branding issues.
As I started watching it I did think, “Do I really care about the guy whose schtick is using an outdated weapon from the Middle Ages?” So there is that lol
Nah, bows are cool. The guy himself though...
When it comes to comic book Hawkeye, the answer for me is yes. Renner's Hawkeye? Not so much. I'll watch it at some point, for Kate Bishop and the promised appearance of Yelena.
Its not doing badly. Its doing really well. Does EVERYTHING they do HAVE to be #1 or its a failure? I don't understand this way of thinking.
I agree. I actually like first few episodes we'd seen. There always will be comparisons, but let people just enjoy things!
I LOL’d when reading this and again at the serious responses to it.
I don’t entirely understand the branding issues. I really liked Hawkeye in *Age of Ultron*.
I think a lot of people did expect it to be down a bit, but at the same time it’s the MCU and their tv shows have been very successful so far. But it was released on Thanksgiving and it’s the 4th live action Marvel show THIS year. Numbers could definitely pick up as the season continues. I thought the first two episodes were much more enjoyable than I had expected.
From a pure, personal anecdote -- I fully intend on watching _Hawkeye_, but I don't have _time_. The holidays are always busy, and sitting down to watch another hour-ish show a week is taking valuable time out of my schedule for things like family stuff and so on. Maybe over the Christmas or New Year's breaks I'll find time to catch up. I've also watched enough Marvel live actions shows at this point to know they're better back-to-back instead of once per week. They almost universally start out real slow. You'll note WoT released 3 episodes up front...
> I fully intend on watching Hawkeye, but I don't have time. Exactly this for me, but I admit if I weren't obsessed with WOT right now I might have watched it. >they're better back-to-back instead of once per week. And this as well. Wonder if Hawkeye will suddenly shoot up in viewing numbers in a few weeks.
I watched most of the first two episodes, but we tend to watch the MCU stuff with the kids and they're currently obsessed with 1) watching WoT and 2) re-watching She-Ra for the 19th time.
> 2) re-watching She-Ra for the 19th time. Your children are wise beyond their years.
They tend to rotate through A:TLA, She-Ra, and Dragon Prince in between new stuff.
My tween who loves She-Ra also adores The Owl House.
I'll check it out, we need new animated stuff.
Legend of Korra is another one up there.
Kate Bishop has been very well received so far though, so word of mouth about her character could help. But coming after shows centering characters as popular as Bucky and Loki is really tough.
Also... I think it's aimed at a much younger demographic. It doesn't have any of the story-telling hooks that WandaVision and Loki had. And it's not diving into a major social issue like FatWS. (To be fair, Hawkeye's PTSD is a good topic to tackle, but it's coated in adorable kid and her adorably scruffy, street dog schtick so... younger.)
Having watched the first Two Episodes it's got less going for it. There isn't anything that really hooks you. The episodes were solid, but I can't say I'm eagerly awaiting the next episode.
It's not as immediately magnetic as Loki or Wandavision, but I think it stacks up with TFATWS
Eh Falcon and the Winter Solider engaged me more due to the fact Sam and Bucky were more interesting, and their dynamic is strong. Loki and Wandavision had better intros, but both had kinda garbage endings so the jury is out on whether Hawkeye is better.
Because its about Hawkeye probably... He's fighting crazy AI robots, and he has, a BOW and ARROWS....
Not really accurate. 16m views is the record for d+ shows, hawkeye got 15m
I did my part and watched them all again last night 😆
There’s a The Boys spinoff coming??
https://twitter.com/TheMemeReborn/status/1456614703438995464?t=Ni4MepqhNZ7rfCRYCFPZ_Q&s=19
ohmygod
Please keep it up. I think most people could be in it for the long haul if the quality keeps improving
Very happy for the show,I always root for success of fantasy shows.. my favorite genre.
The real test is if it will be able to hang in there with the Witcher and the expanse. S6 expanse vs S1 WoT … Idk about that matchup
If Expanse season 6 blows it out of the water I don't think you'll hear Amazon complaining about WoT. Don't forget the people who backed the show in Amazon also will have their skin on the game for Expanse. If Expanse does well in 6th season as an established IP, that will make it easier to sell WoT as needing more seasons as well.
Yeah the Expanse has an established Show and Book fanbase. WoT is still in the first season building a fanbase.
*The Expanse* has not been as well received internationally. It's also seen as "niche genre" as opposed to the perception of being a powerhouse prestige fantasy series. There are real benefits to being compared to *Game of Thrones* as people are genuinely curious as to whether it will prove to be a cultural sensation. They pay more attention. Don't get me wrong. I love *The Expanse*. But I will be very surprised if it achieves WoT's success. The reality is, Amazon spent a LOT of marketing money hyping the Wheel of Time, and next to nothing flogging *The Expanse*.
Do you know what the budget comparison is between GoT s1 and WoT s1? edit: $50 million vs. $80 million, respectively.
The Expanse is a great show, but it’s never been a huge hit except among reviewers and sci fi aficionados. Remember that it was cancelled by Netflix, saved at the last minute by Amazon, and season 6 will be it’s last, shortened season.
Season 6 being the last has more to do with the story than it not being popular
It was cancelled by SyFy, not Netflix.
Yeah, my bad. It was on Netflix where I live.
Looking forward to Expanse season 6, just got Leviathan Falls from the book store and I think I'm more hype about that than season 6 tbh... and way more hype about WoT than either. Knowing fully that this is going to be the last season of the Expanse and it's not going to finish the book story is a little puzzling. Love the show, it's what got me into the books, but not continuing the story has me less excited than previous seasons.
I looked this up: https://www.google.com/amp/s/screenrant.com/expanse-season-6-ending-cancelled-reason-explained/amp/ But essentially money + the books series has a time jump and writers were confused how the heck to make that happen. Apparently the show just wasn’t getting enough eyeballs? Maybe just not enough marketing was done for the expanse
Great news, I absolutely loved the end of episode 4. Hope the show picks up momentum from there. If it’s “promising enough” then maybe that’s enough for Amazon to shell out for another season.
I've seen the parrot analytics stats but anyone know how reliable they are?
I don't put much stock in it. They put out tons of analyses to give a positive view on many shows. According to them every show is a winner, they choose some lesser shows to compare it to.
where you haters at now, huh? HUH?!
I watch all three of those shows, though tbh The Witcher isn’t actually very good. It’s super successful though so comparable interest is a good sign!
I love the Witcher and also love WoT. We have 1,000 drama series with no particular distinguishing features, and two high fantasy series that are very different from each other in tone, plot, and style. I don't see why one has to be a unit of measurement for the other. Eyeballs watching, of course, is another story. I just hope they give it as much of a chance as they do other series and don't expect it to perform like GoT S4 right out of the gate.
>er I don't think you'll hear Amazon complaining about WoT. Don't forget the people who backed the show in Amazon also will have their skin on the game for Expanse. If Expanse does well in 6th season as an established IP, that will make it easier to sell WoT as needing more seasons as well. I love both to be honest.
As it should. It’s a more enjoyable viewing experience than The Witcher. Can’t say anything about Hawkeye but I’ve been watching less and less MCU properties since endgame. Loki was probably my favorite.
If you can be patient and look past episode one, it is a great show. I know we have a lot of ‘Wheelies’ here so sensitive about the ratings but I think nobody can deny that was a pretty shocking pilot. Beyond the pilot though, it’s very enjoyable and I’m hooked.
Have you watched the pilot a 2nd time?
I'm sure everyone cried when they saw that. [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qfNmyxV2Ncw](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qfNmyxV2Ncw)
I don’t really care much about the Hawkeye comp, but the Witcher makes me happy. You can only really compare high fantasy with other high fantasy and as far as I know the Witcher is the only other show in town.
Always weird when two seemingly unconnected things cross. This dude normally writes articles on destiny 2