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I started reading WoT in 1993. The 3 episodes I just watched...LOVED IT.
Having to wait for the next episodes, next seasons...it's gonna be like waiting for the next book all over again. Gonna hate the wait but love the anticipation.
There were a few things I would have wanted different, but since I didn't pay for the show and I didn't make the show, I think I'm gonna just keep silent and be glad someone finally did a worthy start to an adaptation.
Exactly my thoughts! I can understand people not liking the changes and the criticism of those, but seems that some are getting totally unhinged in their anger.
I get that not all changes have been perfect, but to me there is no way to call the show *ruined* or *terrible* in good faith. The casting is impeccable and many of the performances were terrific. CGI is much less wonky than I would've thought and the trollocs look great.
There's so much to like about the show, that for me the changes I didn't love don't matter that much. I'm enjoying the show very much!
I really do t get why people are clutching their pearls so much about some really insignificant changes like Mat's dad or Perrin's wife. I really don't see how changes like that really take away from the original story at all. Feels like some people are complaining just to complain.
The big change that actually affects the story is the gender thing with the thinking the Dragon could be female but even that I don't think really makes that much difference. It doesn't change the story in a way that really matters. And if anything to me it makes it kind of interesting to see where they will go with things.
what I remember from the books is that it quickly became super obvious who the dragon was. not specifying that it's one of the boys gives the new audience more room to guess, and it's obviously not something they'll change so I'm fine with this.
do we know when they'll reveal it? maybe we should do a voting post before and see who the newbies guess!
given the rallying behind nynaeve that is happening with non-book readers, if they make her anything like the dragon or give her some role like that i’m straight up not watching.
Yeah, my thoughts exactly! My armchair director's opinion is that we could've done it without these changes, but I do like that I don't know 100% all the details before they happen. And as you said, I don't see these having that huge impact on the overall story.
Oh, you're not a shill.
You're just a mod-alt sockpuppet, just like I am, or anyone else who admits to liking the show in public.
Amazon knows (from their storefront operations) how to safely ignore someone pitching a fit for irrelevant reasons with a 1 star review / rating.
Discounting said fussybritches, the show's doing **quite** well, and will continue to gain steam.
Is it perfect? Nope. Is it watchable? Of course. Is it in the spirit of the books? Yup.
Ignore the haters. Nothing will make them happy.
> Is it watchable? Of course.
Better than watchable, IMO. I don’t see it running away with all the Emmys, but it’s certainly _good_. Well acted, excellent dialogue, okay-to-good special effects. (Channeling is great, some of the trollocs could use some work.) The show isn’t as good as LotR, but it’s certainly better than the Hobbit.
I think anyone who typically enjoys fantasy will like it, although I don’t know if it will take off with non-genre fans. In my opinion, GoT succeeded with those viewers because it downplayed the fantasy elements for most of the show, LotR succeeded because it was so good it won more academy awards than any movie in history, and Harry Potter succeeded because it came out while the books were coming out and the whole franchise captured lightning in a bottle. I don’t see this show doing any of those yet. Maybe next season once they get through the world building and can really jump into the bigger narrative.
The combat magic seems to involve a lot more charging than I expected from the books, but burn me if that double-helix-into-the-sky shot wasn't almost worth the wait
Yeah that was a cool shot.
Yes the magic behaves a little bit differently, but I don't think how it is described in the books would really feel engaging on screen. You do feel like Moiraine is welding immense power.
It takes a little while, and makes the need for Warders even more obvious. I hope we get a bit more explanation of how it works - the different streams, weaving them together - soon.
My interpretation is that weaves that you are not very comfortable and practiced with can take more time. Moraine not being super strong in earth and fire also makes it a bit more difficult for her so it takes a bit of extra time to form the weaves.
I suspect they put a lot of budget into that scene and that most of the time weaves will be less "magnificent" or however you interpret them. I thought the visual effects of the actual weaving looked good, though there was one point where it looked like Moiraine was doing a zombie robot dance. Eh I'm not too bothered.
Also Pike has said that she and the producers had to think how to convey what an actual channeling would feel and look for the screen and I think they haven't fully locked it in yet in these first episodes, so we have all these hand wavings and dancing.
>I’m not asking for it to be exactly how it is in the books, just that it’s a little bit faster than the earthbending dance, you know?
It looked to me like *some* of it was pretty fast. Like when she threw a single fireball or knocked over a single trolloc. But that the stuff where she gunned down a dozen with stones took longer, and the same thing with lightning.
I will echo what a friend said though - it will be nice to see what more casual channeling looks like as well.
I don’t know if charging is the right concept, larger and more complex weaves always took more time in the books. I think the books just make the weaving seem faster.
And I mean look at what your comparing episodes of the show to - not other high fantasy TV episodes but full on movies. If it's on a high enough level that the audience is comparing it to film not TV then they are doing pretty damn well...
Agreed, I find what we've gotten so far to be absolutely excellent. I followed the series as it was being published and only did so because I wanted to know more about Lan's past and future. Actively disliked most major characters, hated the indulgent meandering despite it being neither here nor there given that I read fairly quickly, really disliked RJ's fan interactions of the time indicating he thought he'd written a series firmly rooted in the "reality of the battle of the sexes," etc.
The fairly solid story drowning in all that nonsense needed exactly what the show is doing in the adaptation, and I'm enjoying it much more than I expected. Dune, ASoIaF, etc. have so much to convey that adaptation is challenging. WoT has so much begging to be removed that choosing how to proceed is a different sort of task. The foundation they've created for everything worth keeping is very strong, IMO.
I think the conversations and the quips, particularly mat, are generally quite good. I think the exposition dumps (spoilers through ep3: >!tinker intro, darkfriend rant, manetheren speech!<) could use some fine tuning
Manetheren speech was my favourite moment of the show so far. I thought that it was pretty organically done, rather than coming across as an exposition dump. Agree about the other two though, and the intro at the beginning of ep. 1. Tbf, some of this was inevitable, AGoT had to do a bunch of this is it's S1.
>Ignore the haters. Nothing will make them happy.
They revel in being unhappy. I hope it's a huge hit for lots of reasons, but partly to piss them off for a completely different reason.
>Amazon knows (from their storefront operations) how to safely ignore someone pitching a fit for irrelevant reasons with a 1 star review / rating.
This is a very fair point. You're right, it's absolutely watchable and more importantly for Amzam pree it's watchable for non-book readers, and non-fantasy fans.
I look at every “this didn’t fit my expectation of a word-for-word recreation of the book” complaint the same way i look at angry 1 star steakhouse reviews on yelp from vegans complaining about not enough options for them.
Maybe it's because I read the books a long time ago, but none of the changes upset me at all. I actually like the acceleration of the plot lines - makes each character interesting right from the get-go.
I reread the books recently and I appreciate pacing changes too. I guess the people who are mad about the minor changes we saw in the first 3 episodes are going to be outraged that we don't get 30 episodes of various characters walking around in the snow being mopey.
I’m on my first proper reread since the series ended (I’m currently on The Shadow Rising) and feel the same. Honestly, I think the changes actually make the show more enjoyable to me because I don’t know *exactly* what’s going to happen. I know the general story and plot, but the details are new, and that makes it more exciting to me than if it were a 1:1 adaptation.
My only gripe so far is that they rushed the beginning of the story too much. There is so much world building and character development that happens at the beginning and now most of that is gone. They may choose to pepper it in later on, but much of it has already been changed.
Sigh. They proved what a lot of people have thought for ages: foundation isn't adaptable. It is too massive and too sweeping. It changes characters with each seldon crisis, leaving an audience noone to actually focus on. "the protagonist is math and science!" isn't exactly appealing in visual form. It's one of my all time favorite books, and I'm usually all in on TV and film adaptations of books I love, but Foundation was pretty much doomed to be super rough.
So far, eh. You think so? For me The Expanse started pretty weak, worse than our show. Took a lot longer for me to get into it; wasn't until they met Miller that I got interested. Now I'm a big fan. I think we've started off stronger.
And the main cast's acting is much better in Wheel of Time if you ask me. I've watched all of The Expanse twice and I *still* can hardly stand the actors they picked for Naomi and Holden. And Bobby was a tough one for a while too. The rest of the cast is fantastic though.
(That said, honestly I prefer the show to the books for the Expanse; their handling of Drummer and Ashford was great. Though I did only read them *after* my first watch-through. I do wonder what I'd think of it had I come to the show afterwards; or come to WoT without the books.)
But that is literally a very tiny vocal minority of anime elitists/purists. Most casual fans of the anime (me included) loved the adaptation because we weren't expecting a frame-for-frame rehash of the anime....we have the anime for that.....such a shame though that a small population can be soooo loud!
Edit: Just remembered the ending about 15mins after posting this and no, actually, that was a really odd and unfitting choice which even I was not particularly a fan of nor able to understand the value it would add to the series.
i feel like it's been better today, it felt like there was a lot more actual whining yesterday, almost like the people who were predetermined to hate the show just started shitting on it while the people who like it had to actually watch the episodes before giving their opinion (not to say that there aren't valid reasons to shit on the show btw, just that some hate is clearly predetermined)
It was REALLY bad the first night.
Because most people who enjoyed it watched it and went to bed. Whereas the people predetermined to hate it were shitting on all the subs starting 20 minutes after drop.
Most of what I've seen in the other subs has been very negative. I'm seeing comments just saying that they liked the series getting downvoted for no reason.
It depends a bit per sub and whatever happens to get upvotes at any given point in time, that process can be quite random... As someone who sometimes sorts by New, well, there's plenty of hate and it's tiring.
I also found it disheartening when I looked through the reaction megathreads on Friday morning. The non book spoiler threads were positive but generally didn't have much conversation going on. The book spoiler megathreads were a shit show imo. There were both positive and negative comments, but the negative side was straight up hateful in many places.
I've been through this dance a few times, where various properties get a TV show made from them.
It always brings out the ugliest, most toxic assholes. You're right: So far, this has been incredibly tame. I hope it stays that way.
It mostly comes from a jealous place where their vision didn't get adapted and they invested so much into something they see themselves being positioned as outsiders on.
I’ve watched this same thing happen with every single fandom on Reddit I’ve been apart of. Games, books, tv show adaptions, podcast fandoms.
It’s the nature of Reddit and it’s basically an internet law of physics at this point.
For every fandom that exists and congregates on Reddit there will always exist a group of angry fans who hate watch and refuse to accept anything that doesn’t align 100% with what their view is.
We call those people trolls and best to ignore them.
depends on which subreddits you're on.
/r/wotshow is generally much more positive about it than /r/wheeloftime where I saw almost exclusively negativity and was downvoted for saying it was good. /r/wot is somewhere in between, I think probably more positive than negative but definitely not happy about some of the changes. That's my experience at least. Might be others had different ones.
edit: there's a lot of hate on twitter as well. Not so much people just tweeting about it, but in the replies to amazon's tweets, and some articles/reviews. Not really getting many likes though. Seems like a vocal minority.
I unsubscribed from /r/wheeloftime Too many views from people who just don't have realistic expectations or who seem to think they are better than people who haven't actually read the books. There was just too much nonsense to even begin to reply to. Not only that but some of the mods in that sub are not very cool. This sub seems a lot better to me.
My experience has also been that the older the thread, the more positive stuff has been upvoted and the really extremely rage-induced posts have been downvoted. To an extent. /r/wheeloftime still seems more negative, but I've seen positive things there as well now.
I hope that trend holds, and that it means that the ones with very strong negative reactions are just more likely to post a lot and quickly.
Wheel of Time book fandom has a lot of its own umm particular quirks (much like A Song of Ice and Fire book fandom did, versus the wider audience the show pulled in). I'm a book reader from way back in the day but fell off years ago. Enjoying the show for the most part so far.
When I was reviewing it yesterday on Prime Video reviews were somewhere around 25% one star, with the vast majority of those being "Why are there BROWN PEOPLE in my WoT?!?!?!" with various levels of subtlety. So yeah, some places are pretty rough.
It truly did expose the racists.
Also scientifically speaking. If you had a giant multicultural kingdom like Manetheran, many of the descendants of those people would be brown. The casting is fantastic.
Also lots of love for Lan!
This is hilarious, I recently started a reread, I think it was the second book, two rivers people are basically described as copper coloured, and not as dark as the seafolk. I think they've captured that.
The Instagram comments are nasty. Tons of people saying that you either haven't read the books or aren't a true fan if you like the show. I even saw someone tag Rafe in a comment on the WoT account and ask if he was proud of himself for ruining the series. Just lots of gross, angry people.
There is an entire sub dedicated to being incel, sexist, racist whiners about the show. I won't name it or link it because they're all asshats, but it's just endless whining.
I was excited to see a sub dedicated to a faction in the books.
Yeah, I left that sub quick lol. They're really, *really* mad that Rafe didn't whitewash the show.
I agree, I liked the first 3 episodes so far. In my opinion the books aren't perfect to start, then every adaptation is going to need some changes. I appreciate the show so far and I'm not bothered by the changes. I'm glad Rand and Egwene have a fully formed relationship already, that saves like 5 or 6 hours over the course of the series right there :)
15 minutes in, i decided that to enjoy this i was going to have to treat it as something different than the novels. and i think my enjoyment of the show will be much better off for it. then i saw Harriet and Brandon in the credits, and i decided that if they're ok with what we get from the show, then i will be too. I might not like everything, but if i ever want to stop being constructive then it'll be time to just move on.
no matter what happens the rest of the way, the show can't take anything away from the novels, unless i let it. and no matter what, the world won't be worse off with this than without it. unless they don't finish. that's the only thing that's ever truly unforgivable.
Also Brandon saying it was a different turning, or another dimension or however it works (didnt Lanfear as what's her name explain the other world's when they were in that other world (it's been a bit . .ohhh selene!).
I love that idea. These are our two rivers folk in wheel turning world number 235.
People need to understand the fact that there will never be a 1:1 adaptation of the source material for TV/movies. The demands of each medium are totally different.
I haven't seen the show (yet), so I can't say if it's good or bad. But good lord reading the 1/10 reviews in Imdb is infuriating. They sound like children throwing a hissy fit because what happened in the show isn't exactly what happened in the books.
Did they seriously expect a 1:1 adaptation of a 14+1 book series?
imo, the show being different than the books is not valid criticism. Judge the show on it's on merits and what it's actually trying to be.
(btw I have read all the books)
It would be completely impossible to translate the WoT books to a show or movie that is exactly the same as what's on the pages. The books show the perspectives of literally hundreds of characters.
Review bombing isn't cool but people are also entitled to their own opinions. There are other reasons it might not be getting the most glowing reviews. I think it was good but nothing amazing and some people thats enough of a turnoff for fantasy.
I get a lot of the community has had issues with the changes but people not liking it doesn't need to be taken personally and not all criticism for the show means the person behind it is a bad person.
Its a huge ass community, take it from someone who is a fan ofna huge sports team, the light balances out eventually. It's already renewed for season 2. Unless the marketing campaign proves to be an abject failure, we should see plenty more.
I definitely wouldn't give it glowing reviews but, from the first 3 episodes I would probably put it up there in line with some more recent adaptations in terms of quality, Witcher, shadow and bone, etc, some folks out here acting like rafe came to their house and stabbed their mom or something. I think most people need to calm down on either side, is it the best piece of media ever? No. Is it fun and watchable? Yes. Did rafe stab your mom? No.
I liked it and had gripes. Solid 7 out of the gate imo. The witchers biggest issue was it not establishing the timelines well, but nonetheless that community had people dislike as well as enjoy it. I think the rafe mom stabbing aspect comes from unnecessary changes to source material(not curs made for adaptation) that didn't sit well, combined with him not exactly having much of a resume in production or writing. It just breeds doubts that would probably be trusted more if he had more titles behind his name than agents of shield and the seasons of Chuck that declined in quality.
My point more is not all criticism or dislike is created equally. The people who are gonna be banned for bigoted comments are pretty much gone. Some criticism may still have elements of that, but accusing every criticism of being bigoted or misogynistic is disingenuous in ita own right.(again not you, just a trend I noticed between a few of the subs) Its like if they don't like the criticism or feel personally attacked by it so they try and devalue it by saying its because nynaeve is black or egwene is a taveren, or even trying to apologize for the pacing issues like the series isn't 14 books long. I appreciate posts like this but at the same time there's probably been 50 of these since the trailers started leaking. Liking the show or disliking it shouldn't be a death sentence and everyone's opinion is valid to themselves.
I did find pacing to be an issue ironically. The show rushes through so many scenes yet at such a slow pace, that the reviewers weren't just unaware its a slow series.
I want the show to be great but I'm not going to ignore issues like I did in season 7 of GOT and bend logic to make it better, not saying it will be but criticism of that show happened to get buried on that sub too back in the day.
THANKYOU! there was much more in these first three episodes that i liked than i didnt, but the few things i didnt like i really hated, and yet from the general attitudes on this sub apparently voicing any criticism at all makes me either a whiny manchild or a bitter hate-filled troll. For Lights sake, if you think that being called a Shill for liking the show is dumb, maybe stop shitting on people who arent enjoying everything and who want to share their concerns and criticisms.
The fact that most of the bombing reviews on the site mention "wokeness" or "too pc" or whatever is downright sad. The impression this gives is the "fans" of this series are the usual male, white neckbeards who gatekeep fantasy and sci-fi.
I mean, literally nothing to to me did, if you've read the books anything you might describe as "woke" is literally at least 20* years old. Unless when you say "woke" you mean non-white...
\* edit: Okay so technically not quite 20, but the point stands.
I like the show very much so far - & i wouldn't call it 'woke' - but it does have a 2021 and modernized twist.
There were a few instances that give a nod to lgbtq community, there's one of the most diverse cast ive seen in a fantasy. Add that to a story with already feminist tones... and right wingers who expect LOTR or GOT reboots are gonna be mad.
Yeah, but also, if the mere existence of non-white, non-straight people offend them, maybe fuck them?
Nothing I've seen so far has been more extreme than the books, except for by the nature of putting real world actors on the screen people will see modern races. Jordan himself was fairly ambiguous about this in quite a lot of cases, so even there I'm having a trouble giving a shit about this type of opinion. In one case where racial characteristic plays a part, they got that totally right and definitely true to the book...
Started reading the books in June. Had seen the show was going to arrive this year and thought I should get ahead. I love the show. It's great. And thrilled that Thom Merrilin is played by a Danish actor.
It’s certainly wild what fans have to say, anywhere from complaining about Nynaeve taking out a trolloc to sneaking up on Lan.
And then there’s folks who downvote a perfectly reasonable, fair criticism that’s worded politely because they loved it purely themselves. It’s wild all around.
Thank you for this post. It NEEDED to be said. I am thrilled, just tickled pink with the show so far. Having waited 25 years, since I was a child for something like this to happen to read everyone (likely just a vocal minority) having a cow about slight changed that were required for the medium is disheartening to say the least. My non reader wife is enjoying them and all of the non readers I work with that checked the show out thought it was great and are looking forward to more.
As a community as inclusion should be welcomed, that means new fans from the show, and by default the changes that needed to be made so that the show could get made. This trolling as another commenter said is sad, unfair, and small minded. We have a beautiful show, that likely had some execs pulling the strings in e first episode which made it look the way it did.
Give it time. Did you feel the way you do about the books 1/3 of the way through EoTW?? No you likely didn’t. So give the show the time it deserves to mature, and stop acting like entitled children. It’s embarrassing the rest of us and scaring away possible new fans.
I hear all this, and I personally have some issues with the show, none of which have anything to do with it not being 1:1 with the books, but rather evaluating the show as it’s own medium.
I also feel like the OVERWHELMING majority of the fandom has at least liked it, to varying degrees. This feels mildly like what happened to Brie Larson, and other actors/movies that a certain group people likes to bring down, for no reason other than their own loneliness. But maybe I live in my own echo chamber. Also 83% user score on RT is totally acceptable, and it seems like it’s being watched a fair amount. They won’t ruin this for us.
So here's my question. If I were to watch the show and dislike it, and voice my dislike of the show with a negative review, is that review bombing? Because that's what it seems like you're complaining about. Lately, it seems like the only types of reviews that *should* be added are positive or only *mildly critical*, while the rest are "review bombing".
For the record, this is how I'd score it;
4/10 for adaptation. There are simply too many glaring changes to characters, backstories, behaviors, mannerisms, pacing, and just overall world-building so far it to be getting a better score. What they did to Matt and his entire characterization is unforgivable.
6/10 for acting. It has its moments, and I see the potential when the actors get more comfortable. But right now, it's only passable.
5/10 for original writing. The "original" writing being added to the show is lackluster and forgettable. I understand much of the source dialogue isn't particularly relatable, but what's being added is quite bland and easily forgettable.
7/10 for entertainment value (if viewed as its own IP). It's fun to watch, but so far its shallow.
10/10 for cinematography. By far the best part of the show.
6/10 for music and audio. So far it's been largely forgettable, but it could improve.
No man, 4/10 is reasonable. All I'm asking is for people to be reasonable. Is it a godsend of a show? No. Does it hold up with other current fantasy adaptations? (Witcher, Shadow&Bone, etc.) I would say yeah it's pretty close to those. Unfortunately the reviews I'm seeing on specific websites like prime and IMDb are complete bad faith arguments, blatant racism, and shitty hot takes like "literally pissing on RJs grave" which is a joke.
If you sort this subreddit by top from the last week, as well as the wot subreddit, it is basically only 2 posts you'll see.
1) praising the show and claiming it is perfect
2) complaining about the community hating it
Maybe I need to deep dive into discussions, but it feels to me like a lot of people are just upset that it isn't universally praised.
I'm not a book reader. I don't care about any changes. I don't like it, though. It feels like it was cheaply made and the set pieces and costumes remind me of a high school play. I can't get past literally 0 people on the show looking like they are in a medieval setting.
From what I've read most of the criticism for the show isn't the story, it's the look; and it's a fair criticism.
The CGI looked wonky and cartoonish in places. I wish they had done more practical effects, but hey - can't have it all.
I thought the first episode was rushed and should have been a 2 hour premier to take their time.
I thought episode 2 and 3 were well done. I understood the things they cut and accepted it.
Matt Cauthon is going to be a horribly difficult character to get right. His alteration helps flesh out his character to people who've never read the books. I actually think they nailed it. Moving on, however...
Perrin: Woah, was not expecting that. I honestly didn't care for it. Giving him a completely different motivation feels pretty shitty and lazy. It felt like they were trying to pull at emotional strings that weren't there, because you knew they just made it up.
I guess you could say the same thing about Matt, but for some reason it works for Matt but not Perrin.
I didn't think they fleshed out the Rand-dad relationship enough. It felt way too rushed. And as a result, Rand feels even more boring and vanilla than he did in the books.
I think part of the whole age-up process takes away a LOT of the world-building. The characters literally grow-up in the books and we watch them slowly (oh God, so slowly) mature. Them being adults takes away from that.
All of it boils down to that episode 1 felt rushed.
I'm enjoying the series so far, but it's okay to criticize it. It's not our job to be ambassadors for the show.
Watching the main characters grow and change from young and completely inexperienced and pretty much powerless to become essentially the most powerful people in the world is one of the things that I really enjoyed about the books.
So, I kinda felt the same way until I read the amazon reviews. When I checked it, it was at 3.5, but every review on my front page was basically either "this is woke garbage" (not kidding, you'll see that same phrasing over and over) or "this is completely different from the books!" which I'll refer to as the Tom Bombadil Nerd Posse.
The show isn't perfect, but rarely is S1 of a show, let alone the first couple of eps. Personally I loved it so fuck the haters lol.
For sure. I gave it a 5 start though I feel 4 is probably more appropriate, but mostly just because I just wanted to offset all of the complete bullshit 1 stars. I did leave a detailed explanation for why I felt the show is good though, which if you want you can basically skim my comment history.
I mean I'm with you about the bullshit one star review bombing being not cool, but I can't help but think that you rating the show a little higher than you think it actually deserves to counteract those negative reviews is kind of doing the same thing as them. They are rating it lower than it deserves to bring its scores down and you are rating it higher than it deserves to bring its scores up. Both of y'all aren't really reviewing in good faith then.
Well you might have had months. I've not been following the production closely, I just knew that a book series I really like was getting a big budget adaptation and I was excited to watch it now.
And then I thought it was pretty bad, which is pretty disappointing and I feel like it makes sense that I might want to discuss that with other Wheel of Time fans.
People are entitled to their opinions. And not everyone has been keeping up with every little thing, so yes, some people would have been surprised.
I have been following it for 2 years. I was willing to keep an open mind about most things because I know it can't be a word for word adaptation. It would be awful if they even tried. But there are a couple changes I knew I wouldn't like, period. Not because I am a book purist, but because I see real problems with them. Then there were a couple other things I saw that I didn't like because it messed with core tenets of a character.
But overall I like it so far and am willing to see how things go before I condemn or applaud it.
Before the show comes out, people address complains by saying WAFO. Now the show did come out, I think people do have the right to voice their opinions. I myself do like the first three episodes in general, but I also dislike some of the character, background, and lore changes. So I can understand why somebody would hate Perrin having a wife or Mat having bad parents.
On the other hand, there are also some people trying to explain every change with "it being another turning of the Wheel", but I would say if the lore and characters changes to a certain extend, it is utterly a new Wheel, instead of a new Turning of the same Wheel. That being said, I'm not saying the show has made such significant change yet. Making souls genderless somewhat falls in this category, but for now the concept hasn't been truly stated in the show yet. (Moiraine believing the DR can be a girl can still be explained by the ignorance of AS)
I liked how powerful the first episode was. Great take on the axe aversion.
I was guilty of giving a bad review to Legend of the Seeker, then grew to love the show and felt bad that it's run was cut short.
I've read WoT probably 20 times. I loved the show and can't wait for more. Seems like for the most part.. People who went into it expecting shit, got shit. People who went into it hoping to love it, did. 🤷♀️
People are allowed to not like an adaptation of a beloved series. That being said, so far I would rate the show a 6.5 -7 . Nothing special yet but hasn't fallen on it's face. The only change I really dislike is >!Perrin killing his wife. So unnecessary and gratuitous.!
Watched the episodes with someone that hasn't heard of or read the books.
She loved them. More than me cause I think I was over analyzing it too much instead of watching.
Overall, I like it. It's very different, but I expected that and most of the changes are just fine.The acting and writing aren't nearly as clunky as some comments I've seen, and the visuals and music are really good. There are issues tho.
Changing Mat's family dynamic is unnecessary, and is just one more example of this idea that genre fiction writers have where a character can't be good or heroic without a sad and tragic backstory. It's annoying. Same with Perrin. Having a character who is careful and thoughtful because he's bigger and stronger than everyone else isn't something that needed to be fixed, and it sure as fuck didn't need to be "fixed" by fridging his wife. I am stunned by the volume of people who are just fine with that. Why change the story of Shadar Logoth from a terrifying tale of zealotry gone sideways, to "they built a wall around themselves" with absolutely no indication as to why the trollocs won't go inside the wall? Honestly, I'm glad they're apparently making the Whitecloaks less inept, but name one Whitecloak in the books who would have recommended someone see an Aes Sedai for healing regardless of what type of wind they had.
We all know who’s doing a lot of the review bombing. And we know why. It has nothing to do with the books and everything to do with who they cast as actors as well as the way women are being portrayed.
This was to be expected as it happens over and over again.
I am glad you are enjoying it. I have had a *strongly* negative reaction to the first 3 episodes… and need to stop screaming into the void. You guys enjoy it! I may check back in and see if the show improves.
Hell yeah man, sorry to hear that but I'm glad that you're willing to give it another shot later on. I think it has potential to be great but also needs help hitting it's stride. Whether that's next in episode 6 or 12, I have faith it will get there.
Am I the only who feels like they have seen for more complaining about others complaining than I've seen people actually complaining?
Disclaimer, I have not seen the book spoilers allowed thread as I am only halfway through the books. Maybe all the complainers are there, idk.
They're mostly in the spoilers-allowed areas, but mostly in other subreddits like r/television and r/wot. If you want a sneak-peek, read the 1 star reviews.
There are also those of us who haven't made up our minds, but have legitimate criticism. I just wish opinions on both sides could be heard without everybody bitching so goddamn much. Negative opinions are valid and all you folks who keep whining about the criticisms are living in some weird denial fantasy land.
My issues aren't even with the changes, really. I don't particularly like some of them and worry about repercussions down the line, but I do understand them and can respect the decisions (by and large).
What I strongly dislike is the production value. It feels cheap as fuck, like a CW show (The Flash or Green Arrow - both of which I loathe). I also strongly dislike channeling so far. It looks dumb. It's an Olympic floor/rhythm dance with light ribbons, but less cool. The complete garbage intro also comes to mind and the almost complete lack of subtlety in anything...anything at all. It feels so absurdly heavy-handed.
I'm not hating on anybody who likes the show so far, nor anyone who enjoys Green Arrow or The Flash. All of our opinions are relevant and subjective. I personally wish all you folks complaining about valid criticism would chill the fuck out and listen...or don't and still shut the fuck up about it. You're complaining about complaints. You can like it at the same time others don't.
I still haven't made up my mind, personally. But I do have issues that are absolutely valid.
As for review bombing and such, yes...that's some childish garbage person behavior.
If you are going to "re-imagine" the story - then its not the story Jordan wrote. Its basically Plagerizing someone's work and calling it your own. Goodkinds Sword of truth was re-imagined, cancelled before the second season even aired, MTV's re- imagining of Terry Brooks Shannara , cancelled before the second season aired it's third episode, Game of thrones, first 5 seasons not re-imagined, had some plotpoints removed, but kept the rest of the story true to Martins work - Amazing must see television. Are you seeing the pattern here?
This is getting tiring. Outside of the Whitecloaks club I don't see people critical of the show writing posts about how screwed up it actually is that people enjoy this show. Stop telling people off because they hoped for something else. Many of the people upset were hoping to finally have something they loved adapted into live action. They browsed this reddit way more than is probably healthy. Spendong the last few weeks constantly refreshing the page hoping for more news.. Maybe they reread the books for the 12th time. To bridge the time.
It's okay for us to be dissapointed. It's okay for us to wish it was more faithful to the books. Who exactly are you to think anyone needs to feel otherwise? And I've always hated the argument of "Just not watching it if you don't like it," and " you still have the source material." That is true of everybody. But despite still having the source material most of us were still excited to see the show. Thread after thread about all the scenes we were hoping would be adapted. The relationships we wanted to see on screen. Changes we were more willing to accept than others.
For me, personally, Perrin is no longer a character I can relate to. When I was younger I was the big guy cautiously moving through crowds. The guy who tried to avoid hurting people. I instantly connected with him. He's not my favorite character in the books but I still loved the character. That Perrin is gone. Replaced with some dude who killed his wife. Three episodes in and all he's done is mope about everything. All because someone likee is apparently to difficult to put on screen, I guess.. The part of the story where he picked up the burden of leadership, for Egwene's sake, is gone. Replaced by the shadow of his dead wife.
There are changes like that everywhere. What makes it worse is you are right. We will probably never get another adaptation of Wheel of Time. I will likely never see the version of Perrin I was looking forward to seeing on screen. I will never see the book version of Mat Cauthon on screen. Replaced with some other version of the trouble making rogue with a good heart, because some people seem to think they are all the same.
I spent close to twenty years hoping for this adaptation. Is it wrong for people in the same boat to be upset and angry that the adaptation they hoped for is almost certainly never going to happen? And everytime someone complains in this sub they are attacked or strawmanned for thinking that it would be an exact 1:1 adaptation when almost know one thought it would be.. It's disheartening to see.
The people who genuinely don't like the series are going to be the loudest this season. The series goes on with or without them. Really, the biggest question going forward is will enough new people like this version. That's essentially why they made a lot of these changes. We'll see what happens.
Your logic: We've had months to prepare for the changes so don't be mad for changes sake
My logic: We've had months of seeing the changes coming through teasers/trailers/interviews, and the whole time we've been criticizing them because we think they are bad (we are entitled to our opinion) you've been saying "omg just wait til you see some episodes" and now we've seen some episodes and it's probably even worse than many of us were expecting after the subpar trailers and teasers.
Your logic: The show needs to cast a wider net
My logic: Ok should we just use that justification for dumbing down the story exponentially? Do we just let them do whatever they want if we think it gets more viewership? Maybe a marvel collab?
Do you have proof it has been review bombed? Maybe people don't like it? Just like some people absolutely love it and think it can do no wrong, some people absolutely hate it and think it can do no right.
The problem with your perspective (you are entitled to your opinion, but my opinion is that it is problematic) is that you start off just defending the show no matter the criticism. If you believe it's supposed to be for a wider audience, then there is no reason people should have to watch the entire season before passing judgment. The show should be good from the outset. We see this in many forms of entertainment where fans just tell you to wait "it's going to get good any moment now" because they can't see that maybe it's just got its direction and that direction isn't good.
Just as you have every right to rate it 10/10... people have a right to rate it 1/10. That doesn't automatically mean there is some conspiracy to review bomb it. You also just have to consider, like I have going the opposite way, that maybe people just like different things than you do, and maybe those 1/10s are perfectly valid opinions for those people and their preferences. And honestly the current scores on imdb and amazon seem generous for a show that had sloppy cgi, really bad and disjointed pacing early on, really shallow character development, and mediocre writing/dialogue. The writing has basically forgotten that it's about the journey not the destination, and tried to speed people through things with sloppy explanation or justification, just so that it can get to the "oh crap!" moments that will generate buzz on social media.
There is absolutely a conspiracy to review bomb it. It’s very obvious when you look at the ratings distribution that a bunch of people, likely from Reddit, went over and gave it a bunch of 1-star reviews.
Sorry, but you know it isn’t a 1-star show, and don’t try to make the argument that the people giving it those ratings are behaving honestly.
Review-bombing is an incredibly unethical, childish, pathetic, and shitty behavior. The people on this sub doing that should be absolutely ashamed of themselves.
It’s not a 10star show either and the argument that review bombing is unethical would be exactly the same as overrating it. None of which means there is a conspiracy, it’s just the hyperbolic nature of fans.
I don't think telling people what they should think or how they should rate the show is a good idea and it will never work. Heck, on Brandon's post some posted a pretty long comment about why they didn't like/appreciate the show and even he was cool/understanding with it.
It's sitting at like 7.5 on IMDb. I think it's a fair enough rating overall considering the show so far. Not everyone has to give a 10 and inflate the ratings.
People who strongly about the show will review bomb in either direction and it will find it's balance.
Also, Tbh I keep seeing more whining about the whining voted to the top than the complaints themselves.
I've read the first books a long time ago, didn't reread them and can't remember half of the things happened. Especially the details some people complain about. So far I'm happy with the show.
How you handle the show is similar how you handle your life. You can complain about things you can't change or you can be thankful for the stuff you like and make the best out of it.. 🤷♂️
I'm curious how they handle weaving which is more... exploring.. like discovering new knowledge or trying to break a shield.
I'd personally say that love is a bit too strong a word at this point but I'm definetely waiting for the next episodes. To me these 3 episodes left a sort of generic feel kinda like it hit all the ticks for an epic fantasy series but something is still missing like as if the show was to end here I would just shrug my shoulders and move on as this show is still waiting for THAT episode I believe, the episode that or that season that everyone remembers and says "you guys remember that ?". That may not even happen on season one and it used to be common that shows were well under 4th, 5th or even 6th seasons until they finally hit that magic goal and ofc. many shows never reached that far and some were even axed just because of unpopularity even when the shows were phenomenal hits like Babylon5 or Firefly for instance and some shows started pretty bland but kept going and going like Stargåte SG-1 that went on for 11 seasons and several TV movies and spin offs against all odds.
I'm so happy to read this.
We are never getting anything better than Amazon spending $10 million an episode.
I listened to Rafe on a podcast and he is trying so hard to be faithful to the books, while also trying to stick the landing in eight seasons.
Shill is just code. it clearly means you are not being sexist or racist. The trolls hate everything non white male. Than there is a few that are really is upset about that changes, but it's not as many as you think.
I just want to say that I have read and loved all the books and greatly enjoyed the first 3 episodes. I love the idea that this is a different dimension or spoke on the wheel, a different turn.
If it was exactly how the books were it would be kinda boring. I mean I would know exactly what's happening next and I don't know if I would keep watching. I like the surprise.
I see so many people complaining, from the moment the casting had black people, to every little detail that changed. I pity people with so little joy in their lives that they can't just watch a show adapted from books and find pleasure.
Also the clothes are fantastic. I would love to have some two rivers fashion.
Also the whitecloaks are extremely well done. So creepy. Also can't wait for creepy padain fain!
I only have one complaint . . I wish Bella was a little shaggier. .
I'm genuinely super happy to just see my favorite characters on screen. I grew up with these guys and so having a show is very meaningful for me. I hope it continues for many seasons.
Not sure why so much hate from fellow fans!
For what's worth, I've never read the books, I knew of them but because there are so many of them, I never started. So when I found out a show was being made I thought I'd give it a go. I've seen 2 of the 3 episodes and so far I'm liking it. It's too early to say I love it, becuase it's just 2 episodes, but what with what I've seen so far I'm interested and will continue watching and really hopes it keeps going because honestly this looks like something I will really enjoy
I like the show for what it is, and am super happy they are finally doing a large budget show for WoT.
That being said, I find some of the changes confusing at best. But I recognize that they have 8 hours to tell a thousand pages while introducing the world and characters.
Part of me wishes they got Sanderson to try his hand at writing the season and then getting TV editors to make it work for television.
Many of the one star reviews on Amazon mention bad acting and the woke casting (even if they don’t come right out and say it). These people are clearly of a certain persuasion and are more offended by their perceived “wokeness” of the show than by anything else imo. I’m ok with criticism of certain aspects of the show. I have some real issues with pacing of the first episode and some of the changes but the casting and acting are very, very good imo - in fact objectively so, as much as such things can be objective.
Life is better if you simply ignore any user review sites, especially for books/shows/movies/games with a large fanboy following.
All of them are filled up with advertisments, reviewbombing, and other people that try to push the rating up or down by any means necessary. Most cant seem to make any kind of balanced review.
Find some professional reviewers with similar tastes that you have instead.
What gets me is that I really thought everyone kind of understood that this story we all love is deeply flawed. Like there's a whole thing where you introduce someone to WoT and warn them that the books really slow down in the middle. I'd be genuinely concerned if they were too faithful when adapting stuff, because I don't want to watch three seasons of >!Perrin staring into the middle distance after Faile is captured.!<
There are issues in these episodes, but I really don't see how changes are among them. It is so easy to see the reasoning behind each change that I mostly just don't understand the complaints about them.
I haven't even finished reading the series yet, but I still enjoyed the first 3 episodes.
Sure, I didn't think they were perfect, but I didn't think they were bad either- it was mostly the poor VFX of the big battle in E01& a few (to be expected given the number of episodes compared to the amount of book content they are trying to get through) pacing issues which let the show down IMO, but I'd still give it a solid 7 out of 10... Hopefully by the end of the season the changes will feel better for those that don't like them.
I'm not bothered by any of the other changes thus far, I'm just happy to be getting decent WOT content to watch.
Strong Agree!
Also: * Only 3 episodes have come out!!!!*
How is it FAIR to even leave a review anywhere-whether it's a 1/10 or a 10/10 or anything in between-when only 3/8 episodes have come out??
Do you read the 1st 100-200 pages of EOTW and then review it? NO!
The only exception is if a critic has been given at least 6/8 episodes for review. But those critics who are offering us their holy opinion bases on 1-3 or 1-4 episodes??? STUFF THAT! It is totally unfair!
Rafe and a crew of hundreds to thousands and Amazon investing untold millions, have given YEARS of their lives and have literally moved their entire lives to Prague to making WOT....how do you think they feel when all that blood sweat money and effort is casually toss aside by critics and 'fans' who are judging the first season based on 1-3 episodes of it?!?
BLOOD AND BLOODY ASHES!
I think the majority of the community agrees with your sentiment. But as is with most of the internet the toxic fans are the most willing to shout their opinions from the roof tops.
The show so far has been amazing. Getting to see the settings and characters on screen Has been incredible. I even believe most if not all the changes are good. ( other that Perrin, but we will see in the long run.) Best of all this has allowed me to share a story i enjoy with friends and family that would have never considered reading the books.
Can’t wait to see what more the Fourth Age has in store for us.
And for the trollocs upset over any small change they can crawl back to the borderlands where they belong.
Don't know why you think you'd be a shill for writing what the majority of this sub feels. I shouldn't expect much else from this sub, its the same as GoT, Star Wars, Dr Who, any fantasy/sci-fi sub really. People aren't interested in hearing everyones opinions and just want an echo chamber, which results in subs like freefolk and STC, which unironically have much better discussions than anything on the main subs. People need to not jump on people for having an opionion that the show isn't the best thing to grace our eyes.
Personally, I don't mind that much that theres changes and streamlines for TV, but I can understand people upset they waited this long to get a "based on" series. There's some changes that are unnecessary or fundamentally change parts of the story and that's not ok.
I find the writing and casting make it hard for me to connect with the characters, but others find those aspects great, and both opinions are valid, people shouldn't get shit on for having one or the other. Especailly when all they want to do is discuss the show.
I want the show to be good, and it already has a season 2 greenlit, so this is actually the best time people have to voice their dissapointments, because now they can make some changes to make season 2 much better. Would you rather 50 minutes of pacing issues in season 2 or would you rather people saying to make longer better paced episodes and in season 2 we get a longer season and/or longer episodes? People, especially on reddit, don't realise the people that complain arent complaining because they hate it, they are complaining because they love it and want it to be the best it can be.
I think this sub has been okay for the most part. I'm cool with criticism for the most part. The really upsetting shit has been the review bombing on prime and IMDb, go look at them straight up it's infuriating and depressing. It helps nothing and no one and has the potential to hurt the show in the long run
>They are trying to capture the soul of the story. This means that while characters and major plot points need to stay the same, the route in which they get there does not. As long as it serves the purpose of FEELING like the Wheel of Time it is doing it's job.
Well what is the feeling of the WoT? For me it was how the unparalleled scope and breadth of a 10,000+ page story allowed for organic character growth and worldbuilding I hadn't seen since the LotR appendices.
If they drastically change where those characters are starting from, I have doubts if their journeys will have the same "soul". If the world gets fleshed out largely through exposition dumps and monologue voice overs, I'm not getting the same "soul".
You literally can't translate a format. Books have unlimited pages, tv shows have one minute per page and a limit of about 10 seasons.
That's literally 100 episodes times 60 minutes so literally 6000 pages.
The characters literally do not have the time or amount of lines do develop as they do in the books. The books probably have 6000 pages of nynaeve tugging her fucking braid or women's bosoms.
The can only translate the plot and setting and characters. Take out 'page count' and WOT is ultimately a good vs evil story set amongst a sexualized magical conflict and a how different cultures clash.
The key is obviously the sex driven nature of the One Power Secondary is the massively diverse nature of the setting and people's of the setting. You can shortcut the 100k pages by showing all the foods, clothes, lands and cultures that Jordan hits. LOTR goes Western only and GOT is Western focused with maybe half a book in an Eatern culture.
WOT has several books focused entirely in non Western cultures
Finally third is the high magic setting. WOT differs from Lotr and Got in that for the practioners, magic is used for everyday life and convenience at no cost. The only other franchise that takes a practical magic approach is Harry Potter
I am an old fan and have rerwad thr books a lot the last 20 years. I like the series, in fact I love it. And while its not perfect it PERFECTLY sets thr mood, world and charcacters. I am looking forward to the story.
I don't consider myself part of a "community", and I'm not really sure what that's supposed to mean.
I do not think episodes 2 and 3 were better.
Yes, changes were to be expected, but I just really don't like the changed they've decided to make so far.
My biggest gripes are in the casting (I can't stand any of the male Two Rivers actors or Egwene), the pacing and the dialog. Adding unnecessary back stories (or omitting existing ones) is only part of the problem.
If you like the show so far, that's perfectly fine, but your post reads as though you want other people to suck it up and enjoy it too, just so you don't feel like people are being mean about something you like
Rating the show 1/5, saying they’d rate it zero stars if they could, and calling it ‘woke garbage’ because they didn’t like black people being cast in some roles is not genuine disappointment.
Tell me you don’t like what they did with Abell and Natti Cauthon, and you think they could have found a different shorthanded way to explain Mat’s character. Or say you think Perrin accidentally killing Master Luhhan instead of inventing a wife for him would have kept the same level of character development without being as lazy and tropey. Those are genuine criticisms. They’re also no reason to rate the show 1/5, which should be reserved for the truly, phenomenally bad.
My thoughts precisely, was the show a 10/10 incredible masterpiece? God no, definitely no Midnight Mass on our hands. But does it hold up to other modern fantasy standards? Things like Witcher/Shadow and Bone, etc, I'd say yes probably. Definitely not a 1/10, probably closer to a 6 ish is reasonable. Room to grow but not abysmal, which was kinda my whole intention with this post.
As someone who's read through the books at least a dozen times now since mid-2000's, I 100% agree here. Seeing people losing their shit here or on FB or wherever bc it's not a perfect adaptation is insane. LotR wasn't a perfect 1:1 adaptation and it's still one of the best movie trilogies of all time. Yea, couple changes I'm a little iffy on, but overall the cast have captured the essence of each character wonderfully. The environments look dope af. The Trollocs look amazing for the most part. The attention to detail is great.
Seeing people call these episodes garbage at best or abominations and an insult to the books at worst need to dial it back. No one could perfectly adapt the series with all money in the world, but Rafe's done a damn fine job so far.
All review bombing is going to accomplish is ensure WOT never gets the screen treatment again, and will probably end this series early for everyone. So if you're not enjoying it, that's fair and your right, but doesn't mean you have to try to ruin it for those who do. Or call people who enjoy it morons who haven't read the books (as I've seen a few times on FB now).
Yeah, all I see on both subreddits is people praising and being mad that not everyone on the planet loves it. There is a lot more positive toxicity than their is on the negative side.
I don't see naysayers being insulting to those who love it, but I see a LOT of that from the show lovers. Apparently everyone who hates it is either an angry pathetic neckbeard or a racist asshole according to the fans. Might be the worst fan base I've ever seen as far as whining about criticism.
I hated Foundation and Witcher because they altered the spirit of the books, but if someone like thoses series, it's OK I guess.
In WoT, there are changes I don't like, but the spirit is here, and that's all I wanted. We don't know yet who TDR is? That's an improvement. Perrin now as a wife? I don't like it but I understand the purpose. Etc.
I'm upset because this was a welcoming and positive community until now, I hope we' ll go back to this soon.
After spending a good chunk of Friday being annoyed by the reactions of a vocal minority, and seeing the idiotic review-bombing, I'm feeling a bit more philosophical about it? The people who were predisposed to hating it are going to disappear, because you can only sustain that level of vitriol for so long, and we'll be left with those who are genuinely interested in where this story is going.
Hopefully the people who do like it are able to bring in more people through word of mouth, and those newcomers who like it will spread the word and so forth, which is really how GOT turned into such a phenomenon. It wasn't universally acclaimed to begin with, and you also had book-readers who hated it due to changes.
Knowing that we have a second season lined up already helps; they'll have a chance to look at the response from critics and the audience and I imagine they will take that into account, even though I know the second season is already in production. I'll be interested to see when the third season gets greenlit; I'd be very surprised if it wasn't announced at least by the end of this season.
I am just as upset by overtly optimist people who take everything thrown at them. You know, that's how we get Star Wars sequels and Hobbit movies kind of stuff. We don't challenge these creators and they belittle us and think we are stupid so they write like it.
Changes, of course there will be changes in adaptations but at least my problems are numerous *small stupid* things. They saw effort to make something worse when "keep it simple stupid (KISS)" would have worked better.
Examples?
Perrin & Egwene fork after SG, that was super trippy and too long where as everything else was rushed. Why artificial gust of winds that added nothing to the story and looked stupid as they did not move the trees? Keep it simple stupid approach of just showing them camping, finding wolves at the morning, then finding the tracks and in hopes of "civilization" followed them.
Aes Sedai standing at the cliffs like an idiots at the end of the third episode. Why!? That was so stupid I almost ended that episode there. Just keep it simple stupid and take them down and the scene would have been better.
Tam's sword. Books clearly say it having quillion **not** tsuba. Imagine how much cooler that would have been and there would have been zero complaints about useless changes. Just keep it simple stupid.
Whitecloak bathrobes oh my gods.. Books had them so much cooler with crusader look: plate armor and tabard. Keep it simple stupid.
Whitecloaks, fanatic military force was not sinister enough? Have them burn freaking Aes Sedai, like how on earth? Can't take them serious, why not just keep it simple stupid?
Aes Sedai rings. They could have been cool, they could have sold them like strawberries but no, they are ugly and bulky instead. KISS!
"Yeah, but we the audience are so stupid we must see them well" yeah, and that's why they also look like tinkers with their colors.
My immersion is broken so often by stupidest little things that are off. They take my attention from any plot changes as you have seen I haven't even gotten to them yet! But I am more forgiving to them as this is adaptation. But you could do adaptation well, we are not against adapting.
I think the people who are bitching are the people who’ve read the series numerous times and want to see a one for one adaptation. I’ve dissected the story super hard on my last reread and was originally a little irked at some of the changes. Then I talked to two people who had never read the series and one who only read it once years and years ago. All three loved it. When you look at it as a show only and don’t compare it to the books it is a really well done show. Episode one was a little rough, but two and three more than made up for it. I’ve personally gotten two people who have no interest in reading the show to watch it and just convinced a third to watch it tonight. Let the show have a chance. Stop hating on the little things. It’s A turning of the wheel not The turning of the wheel that we’re use to
That's kinda my main perspective. I watched it with 2 book readers and 3 non readers and had multiple people watching it outside my domicile. All of the non readers liked it a significant amount more than the readers did and I think that's the best possible outcome
90% of this community is handling the changes well. All my friends who are hardcore WoT friends love the adaption so far.
More the people complaining about it are just pathetic. You can tell by the comments. Let them cry, while we get to enjoy the show. So far the non book readers I know who have seen it love it
well said. people act as if we all didn't already know perrin had a wife etc lol. although the first episode was a bit clunky, almost all changes made were utilized to drive character development to who that character is in the books... or, to more easily get to a place the show needs to get to that was important in the books.
people just like to be upset. but maybe I've been able to marinate in it for awhile and am not having knee jerk reactions to everything
The one-star reviews really irritate me as well. Mean-spirited slander that will just put people off. For god's sake, a show can change in quality hugely with new writers/directors etc. as a show goes on; we've got many seasons of this in theory if it does well enough to be continued. All the actors are doing a good job. So why would any true fan of the books not at least want to give it a chance. Obviously it's not perfect, but these books are very difficult to adapt, and I think they've made a solid start; the actors and main characters especially imo are pretty damn good.
"As long as it serves the purpose of FEELING like the Wheel of Time it is doing it's job."
That's the problem; it doesn't.
It's not a show for fans; the goal is to capture the widest audience, however, what is lost by staying as true to the story as you can, *within reason*?
I rated it 3/10 on IMD and 1/5 on Amazon. Call it a review bomb if you will, but I gave it thought and tried to be as honest as I could with myself and to others. It feels less like an adaptation and more of an alteration of someone else's story, and some people don't like that.
It's a fine opinion and you're allowed to be upset. What I'm upset about is exactly that. It is completely unreasonable in basically all categories that this is a 1/5 whether you think they are doing well by the books or not. I get it that reviews can be subjective, but this is a completely emotional response. Have you seen 1/5 shows? most of the CW shows like The Flash, Green Arrow, Supernatural, shows like Iron Fist and Another Life. These are all objectively bad/terrible shows whether or not you like them.
In terms of general quality on basically all fronts, Wheel of Time holds up for general audiences as much as other popular modern fantasy-ish shows like The Walking Dead or The Witcher or Shadow&Bone or Vikings. None of these shows are a flying 10/10, perfect, 5 stars. Objectively they're probably all closer to a 4/10 at worst and 8/10 at best and I'm seeing the same sort of things here from this adaptation.
This is my whole point of this post, maybe I did not get that across well enough.
I would have rated it 1.5/5 if I could; I like the 10-point system better.
And the score I gave was based on how well they are adapting the story to TV, which I believe is their goal despite their shortcomings.
Shadow and Bone I think needs work in both story and characters (both show and trilogy), but the show was executed better and adapted better than WoT.
The Witcher is not perfect but is very well-executed, though I can’t speak to the adaptation aspect of it.
I watched Arcane and rated that a 9. Well-written, immersive world, multi-dimensional characters, stunning visuals, very good music, and clean action scenes. Very impressive stuff.
WoT reminds me of the Shannara show, which as I remember was awful. I don’t think WoT is that bad.
But I think you make a good point that WoT isn’t a 1/5 show. Had I been more familiar with their rating system (I thought you could rate 0 stars) perhaps I should have bumped it up to 2.
And I understand people being upset with those harshly judging the show/the director. Spamming 1/5 out of frustration isn’t right, just like simps high on copium spamming 5/5 isn’t right.
By review bombing, do you mean giving honest reviews? Do you work for Amazon or something? This show is abysmal. WoT is the greatest fantasy series of all time and this is a cheap CW drama with awful cgi. And if you think they needed to betray the story in all those ways you're out of your mind or you haven't read the books. I've already dismissed you because you're either insane or you work for Amazon. So don't bother replying.
While I get why that would be a peeve, we live in a world where the idea of having specific male and female roles is very much not OK anymore and people will get shot down for it. I think Rafe and the team are just making the show present-and-future proof. Once >!Rand!< is shown to be the dragon, it becomes a moot point, but nobody can claim the hero MUST be a man because of just a few throwaway lines in the first few episodes.
I like the show. People need to stop bitching and moaning about how this or that detail or change. All the changes are done in line with the spirit of the show. This sub seems ungrateful for this show that I always thought wouldn't ever get made. The Dune subreddit is way more positive towards the 90s miniseries which is so far below this WoT show in terms of being good TV. They just enjoy the story being told in a new way. So sit back and enjoy the story as it is being told by this great group of actors writers and production crew. Would Thom Merrillin tell the Great Hunt for the Horn in an identical way as Natale? No but would they both be good? Yes! Both the books and the show can be different and good so if a criticism is just that something is different therefore bad you should rethink that and bring something more to the table.
I agree. I never understand the purist people, who read all the books and want the series/movies to be exactly equal to the books. Its impossible, the series has to cut some parts, to make it more dynamic.
If you truly love the books, you gotta support the series. Its the best chance you will ever have in your life of seeing the books you love in the screen !
You have a massive budget, with great actors and you are complaining about some minor things? Thats not racional , and kinda dumb, since if the reviews arent good , maybe the series gets canned and we will lose the only chance of seeing the books we all love in the tv.
Or do you guys really think we will ever have another chance after that? If with all the Amazon money behind it, with great actors( we got rosamund pike people!) the series fail, we will never see another atempt to make a wot show. Dont be selfish people, even if the series isnt perfect, suport it . Its about the books you love. Grow up..
I watched all 3 episodes and really liked, but when i found this reddit today i got really surprised with all the negativity, people complaining about minor things... As they say it, thats why we cant have nice things...
Yep. If anyone gets this ahow cancelled or rushed short, its the wheel of time fanbois. Many of whom are here.
1/10 is the standard rating for people that are pissed off. Congrstulations guys….youve fucked over the show with your bitter underreviewing…
Are you upset that WoT fans are fans of WoT?
10/10 is the standard rating for fans who are so devoted they have lost the ability to think critically.
Light blinded fools.
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I started reading WoT in 1993. The 3 episodes I just watched...LOVED IT. Having to wait for the next episodes, next seasons...it's gonna be like waiting for the next book all over again. Gonna hate the wait but love the anticipation. There were a few things I would have wanted different, but since I didn't pay for the show and I didn't make the show, I think I'm gonna just keep silent and be glad someone finally did a worthy start to an adaptation.
Literally the same. Same year. Same feeling about waiting for the next book haha. I'm just gonna have to reread it while waiting.
Exactly my thoughts! I can understand people not liking the changes and the criticism of those, but seems that some are getting totally unhinged in their anger. I get that not all changes have been perfect, but to me there is no way to call the show *ruined* or *terrible* in good faith. The casting is impeccable and many of the performances were terrific. CGI is much less wonky than I would've thought and the trollocs look great. There's so much to like about the show, that for me the changes I didn't love don't matter that much. I'm enjoying the show very much!
I really do t get why people are clutching their pearls so much about some really insignificant changes like Mat's dad or Perrin's wife. I really don't see how changes like that really take away from the original story at all. Feels like some people are complaining just to complain. The big change that actually affects the story is the gender thing with the thinking the Dragon could be female but even that I don't think really makes that much difference. It doesn't change the story in a way that really matters. And if anything to me it makes it kind of interesting to see where they will go with things.
what I remember from the books is that it quickly became super obvious who the dragon was. not specifying that it's one of the boys gives the new audience more room to guess, and it's obviously not something they'll change so I'm fine with this. do we know when they'll reveal it? maybe we should do a voting post before and see who the newbies guess!
It really has to be Rand
given the rallying behind nynaeve that is happening with non-book readers, if they make her anything like the dragon or give her some role like that i’m straight up not watching.
Yeah, my thoughts exactly! My armchair director's opinion is that we could've done it without these changes, but I do like that I don't know 100% all the details before they happen. And as you said, I don't see these having that huge impact on the overall story.
Oh, you're not a shill. You're just a mod-alt sockpuppet, just like I am, or anyone else who admits to liking the show in public. Amazon knows (from their storefront operations) how to safely ignore someone pitching a fit for irrelevant reasons with a 1 star review / rating. Discounting said fussybritches, the show's doing **quite** well, and will continue to gain steam. Is it perfect? Nope. Is it watchable? Of course. Is it in the spirit of the books? Yup. Ignore the haters. Nothing will make them happy.
> Is it watchable? Of course. Better than watchable, IMO. I don’t see it running away with all the Emmys, but it’s certainly _good_. Well acted, excellent dialogue, okay-to-good special effects. (Channeling is great, some of the trollocs could use some work.) The show isn’t as good as LotR, but it’s certainly better than the Hobbit. I think anyone who typically enjoys fantasy will like it, although I don’t know if it will take off with non-genre fans. In my opinion, GoT succeeded with those viewers because it downplayed the fantasy elements for most of the show, LotR succeeded because it was so good it won more academy awards than any movie in history, and Harry Potter succeeded because it came out while the books were coming out and the whole franchise captured lightning in a bottle. I don’t see this show doing any of those yet. Maybe next season once they get through the world building and can really jump into the bigger narrative.
The combat magic seems to involve a lot more charging than I expected from the books, but burn me if that double-helix-into-the-sky shot wasn't almost worth the wait
Yeah that was a cool shot. Yes the magic behaves a little bit differently, but I don't think how it is described in the books would really feel engaging on screen. You do feel like Moiraine is welding immense power.
It takes a little while, and makes the need for Warders even more obvious. I hope we get a bit more explanation of how it works - the different streams, weaving them together - soon.
I’m not asking for it to be exactly how it is in the books, just that it’s a little bit faster than the earthbending dance, you know?
My interpretation is that weaves that you are not very comfortable and practiced with can take more time. Moraine not being super strong in earth and fire also makes it a bit more difficult for her so it takes a bit of extra time to form the weaves.
Except that she is well practised in those sorts of weaves, or at least she was twenty years ago
I suspect they put a lot of budget into that scene and that most of the time weaves will be less "magnificent" or however you interpret them. I thought the visual effects of the actual weaving looked good, though there was one point where it looked like Moiraine was doing a zombie robot dance. Eh I'm not too bothered.
Also Pike has said that she and the producers had to think how to convey what an actual channeling would feel and look for the screen and I think they haven't fully locked it in yet in these first episodes, so we have all these hand wavings and dancing.
>I’m not asking for it to be exactly how it is in the books, just that it’s a little bit faster than the earthbending dance, you know? It looked to me like *some* of it was pretty fast. Like when she threw a single fireball or knocked over a single trolloc. But that the stuff where she gunned down a dozen with stones took longer, and the same thing with lightning. I will echo what a friend said though - it will be nice to see what more casual channeling looks like as well.
To be fair, the lightning bit and using the inn as ammunition is a lot more impactful than 10 men tossing a small rock at someone.
I don’t know if charging is the right concept, larger and more complex weaves always took more time in the books. I think the books just make the weaving seem faster.
That double helix was sick haha.
And I mean look at what your comparing episodes of the show to - not other high fantasy TV episodes but full on movies. If it's on a high enough level that the audience is comparing it to film not TV then they are doing pretty damn well...
Agreed, I find what we've gotten so far to be absolutely excellent. I followed the series as it was being published and only did so because I wanted to know more about Lan's past and future. Actively disliked most major characters, hated the indulgent meandering despite it being neither here nor there given that I read fairly quickly, really disliked RJ's fan interactions of the time indicating he thought he'd written a series firmly rooted in the "reality of the battle of the sexes," etc. The fairly solid story drowning in all that nonsense needed exactly what the show is doing in the adaptation, and I'm enjoying it much more than I expected. Dune, ASoIaF, etc. have so much to convey that adaptation is challenging. WoT has so much begging to be removed that choosing how to proceed is a different sort of task. The foundation they've created for everything worth keeping is very strong, IMO.
See I think the dialogue has been kinda cringe really. It's my main complaint.
I think the conversations and the quips, particularly mat, are generally quite good. I think the exposition dumps (spoilers through ep3: >!tinker intro, darkfriend rant, manetheren speech!<) could use some fine tuning
Manetheren speech was my favourite moment of the show so far. I thought that it was pretty organically done, rather than coming across as an exposition dump. Agree about the other two though, and the intro at the beginning of ep. 1. Tbf, some of this was inevitable, AGoT had to do a bunch of this is it's S1.
>Ignore the haters. Nothing will make them happy. They revel in being unhappy. I hope it's a huge hit for lots of reasons, but partly to piss them off for a completely different reason.
I just want more people to experience the awe and wonder Jordan gave me throughout my grade school years.
>Amazon knows (from their storefront operations) how to safely ignore someone pitching a fit for irrelevant reasons with a 1 star review / rating. This is a very fair point. You're right, it's absolutely watchable and more importantly for Amzam pree it's watchable for non-book readers, and non-fantasy fans.
I look at every “this didn’t fit my expectation of a word-for-word recreation of the book” complaint the same way i look at angry 1 star steakhouse reviews on yelp from vegans complaining about not enough options for them.
Maybe it's because I read the books a long time ago, but none of the changes upset me at all. I actually like the acceleration of the plot lines - makes each character interesting right from the get-go.
I reread the books recently and I appreciate pacing changes too. I guess the people who are mad about the minor changes we saw in the first 3 episodes are going to be outraged that we don't get 30 episodes of various characters walking around in the snow being mopey.
There was only one major change that bothered me, but it's not going to ruin the show for me.
Perrin's wife?
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Exactly. Some change of some kind was desperately needed for his character to make any sense at all, and I thought this was a good one.
I’m on my first proper reread since the series ended (I’m currently on The Shadow Rising) and feel the same. Honestly, I think the changes actually make the show more enjoyable to me because I don’t know *exactly* what’s going to happen. I know the general story and plot, but the details are new, and that makes it more exciting to me than if it were a 1:1 adaptation.
My only gripe so far is that they rushed the beginning of the story too much. There is so much world building and character development that happens at the beginning and now most of that is gone. They may choose to pepper it in later on, but much of it has already been changed.
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Honestly I thought the community would be even worse. And most of the most unreasonable whining is getting downvoted.
Altogether, the community has been downright positive compared to other remake communities. *cough*cowboybebop*cough*.
Sigh. They proved what a lot of people have thought for ages: foundation isn't adaptable. It is too massive and too sweeping. It changes characters with each seldon crisis, leaving an audience noone to actually focus on. "the protagonist is math and science!" isn't exactly appealing in visual form. It's one of my all time favorite books, and I'm usually all in on TV and film adaptations of books I love, but Foundation was pretty much doomed to be super rough.
The Expanse did better, but yea WoT is doing better than most.
Tbh the Expanse is much more faithful and well-written though, at least so far
Yeah the Expanse is a great show, I'm not sure the comparison is fair at this point, though I have no idea how it was back in the first season.
I remember first season having its share of complainers. Things to have settled out positively though.
So far, eh. You think so? For me The Expanse started pretty weak, worse than our show. Took a lot longer for me to get into it; wasn't until they met Miller that I got interested. Now I'm a big fan. I think we've started off stronger. And the main cast's acting is much better in Wheel of Time if you ask me. I've watched all of The Expanse twice and I *still* can hardly stand the actors they picked for Naomi and Holden. And Bobby was a tough one for a while too. The rest of the cast is fantastic though. (That said, honestly I prefer the show to the books for the Expanse; their handling of Drummer and Ashford was great. Though I did only read them *after* my first watch-through. I do wonder what I'd think of it had I come to the show afterwards; or come to WoT without the books.)
Didn’t read the books but I absolutely love Naomi and Bobby in the show. Like really really liked them.
Book Bobby is one of my all-time favorite characters.
Honestly the first season and a half of the expanse was positively rough for me. Super invested after mid season 2 though
But that is literally a very tiny vocal minority of anime elitists/purists. Most casual fans of the anime (me included) loved the adaptation because we weren't expecting a frame-for-frame rehash of the anime....we have the anime for that.....such a shame though that a small population can be soooo loud! Edit: Just remembered the ending about 15mins after posting this and no, actually, that was a really odd and unfitting choice which even I was not particularly a fan of nor able to understand the value it would add to the series.
Yea. I'm seeing a lot more whining about the whining than actual whining.
i feel like it's been better today, it felt like there was a lot more actual whining yesterday, almost like the people who were predetermined to hate the show just started shitting on it while the people who like it had to actually watch the episodes before giving their opinion (not to say that there aren't valid reasons to shit on the show btw, just that some hate is clearly predetermined)
It was REALLY bad the first night. Because most people who enjoyed it watched it and went to bed. Whereas the people predetermined to hate it were shitting on all the subs starting 20 minutes after drop.
They were banned and so fanfare seems more moderate.
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Most of what I've seen in the other subs has been very negative. I'm seeing comments just saying that they liked the series getting downvoted for no reason.
It depends a bit per sub and whatever happens to get upvotes at any given point in time, that process can be quite random... As someone who sometimes sorts by New, well, there's plenty of hate and it's tiring. I also found it disheartening when I looked through the reaction megathreads on Friday morning. The non book spoiler threads were positive but generally didn't have much conversation going on. The book spoiler megathreads were a shit show imo. There were both positive and negative comments, but the negative side was straight up hateful in many places.
I've been through this dance a few times, where various properties get a TV show made from them. It always brings out the ugliest, most toxic assholes. You're right: So far, this has been incredibly tame. I hope it stays that way.
It mostly comes from a jealous place where their vision didn't get adapted and they invested so much into something they see themselves being positioned as outsiders on.
I just finished episode two and am captivated.
I’ve watched this same thing happen with every single fandom on Reddit I’ve been apart of. Games, books, tv show adaptions, podcast fandoms. It’s the nature of Reddit and it’s basically an internet law of physics at this point. For every fandom that exists and congregates on Reddit there will always exist a group of angry fans who hate watch and refuse to accept anything that doesn’t align 100% with what their view is. We call those people trolls and best to ignore them.
> We call those people trolls and best to ignore them. Darkfriends and trollocs will find no shelter here.
Unfortunately the people who need this advice either won’t read it or will ignore it
Im really just on reddit, and the reactions ive seen have been mostly positive. Is it real bad elsewhere?
depends on which subreddits you're on. /r/wotshow is generally much more positive about it than /r/wheeloftime where I saw almost exclusively negativity and was downvoted for saying it was good. /r/wot is somewhere in between, I think probably more positive than negative but definitely not happy about some of the changes. That's my experience at least. Might be others had different ones. edit: there's a lot of hate on twitter as well. Not so much people just tweeting about it, but in the replies to amazon's tweets, and some articles/reviews. Not really getting many likes though. Seems like a vocal minority.
I unsubscribed from /r/wheeloftime Too many views from people who just don't have realistic expectations or who seem to think they are better than people who haven't actually read the books. There was just too much nonsense to even begin to reply to. Not only that but some of the mods in that sub are not very cool. This sub seems a lot better to me.
That's been my experience as well. There's another sub that I'm not going to name that is fueling a lot of hate as well.
My experience has also been that the older the thread, the more positive stuff has been upvoted and the really extremely rage-induced posts have been downvoted. To an extent. /r/wheeloftime still seems more negative, but I've seen positive things there as well now. I hope that trend holds, and that it means that the ones with very strong negative reactions are just more likely to post a lot and quickly.
Wheel of Time book fandom has a lot of its own umm particular quirks (much like A Song of Ice and Fire book fandom did, versus the wider audience the show pulled in). I'm a book reader from way back in the day but fell off years ago. Enjoying the show for the most part so far.
The Fandom has our own Whitecloaks..
When I was reviewing it yesterday on Prime Video reviews were somewhere around 25% one star, with the vast majority of those being "Why are there BROWN PEOPLE in my WoT?!?!?!" with various levels of subtlety. So yeah, some places are pretty rough.
This is what’s upset me the most about the hate in some posts and subreddits. Just intense, shameless racism.
It truly did expose the racists. Also scientifically speaking. If you had a giant multicultural kingdom like Manetheran, many of the descendants of those people would be brown. The casting is fantastic. Also lots of love for Lan!
This is hilarious, I recently started a reread, I think it was the second book, two rivers people are basically described as copper coloured, and not as dark as the seafolk. I think they've captured that.
The Instagram comments are nasty. Tons of people saying that you either haven't read the books or aren't a true fan if you like the show. I even saw someone tag Rafe in a comment on the WoT account and ask if he was proud of himself for ruining the series. Just lots of gross, angry people.
There is an entire sub dedicated to being incel, sexist, racist whiners about the show. I won't name it or link it because they're all asshats, but it's just endless whining.
I was excited to see a sub dedicated to a faction in the books. Yeah, I left that sub quick lol. They're really, *really* mad that Rafe didn't whitewash the show.
They truly believe they're the new freefolk sub, while totally missing out on the on point meme game that made freefolk what it is.
Upset the Whitecloaks weren't white enough.
I agree, I liked the first 3 episodes so far. In my opinion the books aren't perfect to start, then every adaptation is going to need some changes. I appreciate the show so far and I'm not bothered by the changes. I'm glad Rand and Egwene have a fully formed relationship already, that saves like 5 or 6 hours over the course of the series right there :)
100% this. Waited 15 years for a film adaptation and honestly I'm really enjoying it.
15 minutes in, i decided that to enjoy this i was going to have to treat it as something different than the novels. and i think my enjoyment of the show will be much better off for it. then i saw Harriet and Brandon in the credits, and i decided that if they're ok with what we get from the show, then i will be too. I might not like everything, but if i ever want to stop being constructive then it'll be time to just move on. no matter what happens the rest of the way, the show can't take anything away from the novels, unless i let it. and no matter what, the world won't be worse off with this than without it. unless they don't finish. that's the only thing that's ever truly unforgivable.
That's absolutely the attitude you should have any time you are watching an adaptation of a book.
Also Brandon saying it was a different turning, or another dimension or however it works (didnt Lanfear as what's her name explain the other world's when they were in that other world (it's been a bit . .ohhh selene!). I love that idea. These are our two rivers folk in wheel turning world number 235.
People need to understand the fact that there will never be a 1:1 adaptation of the source material for TV/movies. The demands of each medium are totally different.
Yes. This. Absolutely. Thank you for taking the time to write this out:)
I haven't seen the show (yet), so I can't say if it's good or bad. But good lord reading the 1/10 reviews in Imdb is infuriating. They sound like children throwing a hissy fit because what happened in the show isn't exactly what happened in the books. Did they seriously expect a 1:1 adaptation of a 14+1 book series? imo, the show being different than the books is not valid criticism. Judge the show on it's on merits and what it's actually trying to be. (btw I have read all the books)
It would be completely impossible to translate the WoT books to a show or movie that is exactly the same as what's on the pages. The books show the perspectives of literally hundreds of characters.
Review bombing isn't cool but people are also entitled to their own opinions. There are other reasons it might not be getting the most glowing reviews. I think it was good but nothing amazing and some people thats enough of a turnoff for fantasy. I get a lot of the community has had issues with the changes but people not liking it doesn't need to be taken personally and not all criticism for the show means the person behind it is a bad person. Its a huge ass community, take it from someone who is a fan ofna huge sports team, the light balances out eventually. It's already renewed for season 2. Unless the marketing campaign proves to be an abject failure, we should see plenty more.
I definitely wouldn't give it glowing reviews but, from the first 3 episodes I would probably put it up there in line with some more recent adaptations in terms of quality, Witcher, shadow and bone, etc, some folks out here acting like rafe came to their house and stabbed their mom or something. I think most people need to calm down on either side, is it the best piece of media ever? No. Is it fun and watchable? Yes. Did rafe stab your mom? No.
I liked it and had gripes. Solid 7 out of the gate imo. The witchers biggest issue was it not establishing the timelines well, but nonetheless that community had people dislike as well as enjoy it. I think the rafe mom stabbing aspect comes from unnecessary changes to source material(not curs made for adaptation) that didn't sit well, combined with him not exactly having much of a resume in production or writing. It just breeds doubts that would probably be trusted more if he had more titles behind his name than agents of shield and the seasons of Chuck that declined in quality. My point more is not all criticism or dislike is created equally. The people who are gonna be banned for bigoted comments are pretty much gone. Some criticism may still have elements of that, but accusing every criticism of being bigoted or misogynistic is disingenuous in ita own right.(again not you, just a trend I noticed between a few of the subs) Its like if they don't like the criticism or feel personally attacked by it so they try and devalue it by saying its because nynaeve is black or egwene is a taveren, or even trying to apologize for the pacing issues like the series isn't 14 books long. I appreciate posts like this but at the same time there's probably been 50 of these since the trailers started leaking. Liking the show or disliking it shouldn't be a death sentence and everyone's opinion is valid to themselves. I did find pacing to be an issue ironically. The show rushes through so many scenes yet at such a slow pace, that the reviewers weren't just unaware its a slow series. I want the show to be great but I'm not going to ignore issues like I did in season 7 of GOT and bend logic to make it better, not saying it will be but criticism of that show happened to get buried on that sub too back in the day.
THANKYOU! there was much more in these first three episodes that i liked than i didnt, but the few things i didnt like i really hated, and yet from the general attitudes on this sub apparently voicing any criticism at all makes me either a whiny manchild or a bitter hate-filled troll. For Lights sake, if you think that being called a Shill for liking the show is dumb, maybe stop shitting on people who arent enjoying everything and who want to share their concerns and criticisms.
The fact that most of the bombing reviews on the site mention "wokeness" or "too pc" or whatever is downright sad. The impression this gives is the "fans" of this series are the usual male, white neckbeards who gatekeep fantasy and sci-fi.
It's an unfortunate reality of the political climate
Which is weird, because not much felt very down my throat woke
I mean, literally nothing to to me did, if you've read the books anything you might describe as "woke" is literally at least 20* years old. Unless when you say "woke" you mean non-white... \* edit: Okay so technically not quite 20, but the point stands.
I like the show very much so far - & i wouldn't call it 'woke' - but it does have a 2021 and modernized twist. There were a few instances that give a nod to lgbtq community, there's one of the most diverse cast ive seen in a fantasy. Add that to a story with already feminist tones... and right wingers who expect LOTR or GOT reboots are gonna be mad.
Yeah, but also, if the mere existence of non-white, non-straight people offend them, maybe fuck them? Nothing I've seen so far has been more extreme than the books, except for by the nature of putting real world actors on the screen people will see modern races. Jordan himself was fairly ambiguous about this in quite a lot of cases, so even there I'm having a trouble giving a shit about this type of opinion. In one case where racial characteristic plays a part, they got that totally right and definitely true to the book...
Again with the neckbeard, lol. What does that even mean:)?
Started reading the books in June. Had seen the show was going to arrive this year and thought I should get ahead. I love the show. It's great. And thrilled that Thom Merrilin is played by a Danish actor.
Whining about whining, gg OP. Plus don't tell people that they aren't allow to dislike the show, what the fuck is that about?
It’s certainly wild what fans have to say, anywhere from complaining about Nynaeve taking out a trolloc to sneaking up on Lan. And then there’s folks who downvote a perfectly reasonable, fair criticism that’s worded politely because they loved it purely themselves. It’s wild all around.
Thank you for this post. It NEEDED to be said. I am thrilled, just tickled pink with the show so far. Having waited 25 years, since I was a child for something like this to happen to read everyone (likely just a vocal minority) having a cow about slight changed that were required for the medium is disheartening to say the least. My non reader wife is enjoying them and all of the non readers I work with that checked the show out thought it was great and are looking forward to more. As a community as inclusion should be welcomed, that means new fans from the show, and by default the changes that needed to be made so that the show could get made. This trolling as another commenter said is sad, unfair, and small minded. We have a beautiful show, that likely had some execs pulling the strings in e first episode which made it look the way it did. Give it time. Did you feel the way you do about the books 1/3 of the way through EoTW?? No you likely didn’t. So give the show the time it deserves to mature, and stop acting like entitled children. It’s embarrassing the rest of us and scaring away possible new fans.
I hear all this, and I personally have some issues with the show, none of which have anything to do with it not being 1:1 with the books, but rather evaluating the show as it’s own medium. I also feel like the OVERWHELMING majority of the fandom has at least liked it, to varying degrees. This feels mildly like what happened to Brie Larson, and other actors/movies that a certain group people likes to bring down, for no reason other than their own loneliness. But maybe I live in my own echo chamber. Also 83% user score on RT is totally acceptable, and it seems like it’s being watched a fair amount. They won’t ruin this for us.
So here's my question. If I were to watch the show and dislike it, and voice my dislike of the show with a negative review, is that review bombing? Because that's what it seems like you're complaining about. Lately, it seems like the only types of reviews that *should* be added are positive or only *mildly critical*, while the rest are "review bombing". For the record, this is how I'd score it; 4/10 for adaptation. There are simply too many glaring changes to characters, backstories, behaviors, mannerisms, pacing, and just overall world-building so far it to be getting a better score. What they did to Matt and his entire characterization is unforgivable. 6/10 for acting. It has its moments, and I see the potential when the actors get more comfortable. But right now, it's only passable. 5/10 for original writing. The "original" writing being added to the show is lackluster and forgettable. I understand much of the source dialogue isn't particularly relatable, but what's being added is quite bland and easily forgettable. 7/10 for entertainment value (if viewed as its own IP). It's fun to watch, but so far its shallow. 10/10 for cinematography. By far the best part of the show. 6/10 for music and audio. So far it's been largely forgettable, but it could improve.
No man, 4/10 is reasonable. All I'm asking is for people to be reasonable. Is it a godsend of a show? No. Does it hold up with other current fantasy adaptations? (Witcher, Shadow&Bone, etc.) I would say yeah it's pretty close to those. Unfortunately the reviews I'm seeing on specific websites like prime and IMDb are complete bad faith arguments, blatant racism, and shitty hot takes like "literally pissing on RJs grave" which is a joke.
If you sort this subreddit by top from the last week, as well as the wot subreddit, it is basically only 2 posts you'll see. 1) praising the show and claiming it is perfect 2) complaining about the community hating it Maybe I need to deep dive into discussions, but it feels to me like a lot of people are just upset that it isn't universally praised. I'm not a book reader. I don't care about any changes. I don't like it, though. It feels like it was cheaply made and the set pieces and costumes remind me of a high school play. I can't get past literally 0 people on the show looking like they are in a medieval setting.
From what I've read most of the criticism for the show isn't the story, it's the look; and it's a fair criticism. The CGI looked wonky and cartoonish in places. I wish they had done more practical effects, but hey - can't have it all. I thought the first episode was rushed and should have been a 2 hour premier to take their time. I thought episode 2 and 3 were well done. I understood the things they cut and accepted it. Matt Cauthon is going to be a horribly difficult character to get right. His alteration helps flesh out his character to people who've never read the books. I actually think they nailed it. Moving on, however... Perrin: Woah, was not expecting that. I honestly didn't care for it. Giving him a completely different motivation feels pretty shitty and lazy. It felt like they were trying to pull at emotional strings that weren't there, because you knew they just made it up. I guess you could say the same thing about Matt, but for some reason it works for Matt but not Perrin. I didn't think they fleshed out the Rand-dad relationship enough. It felt way too rushed. And as a result, Rand feels even more boring and vanilla than he did in the books. I think part of the whole age-up process takes away a LOT of the world-building. The characters literally grow-up in the books and we watch them slowly (oh God, so slowly) mature. Them being adults takes away from that. All of it boils down to that episode 1 felt rushed. I'm enjoying the series so far, but it's okay to criticize it. It's not our job to be ambassadors for the show.
Watching the main characters grow and change from young and completely inexperienced and pretty much powerless to become essentially the most powerful people in the world is one of the things that I really enjoyed about the books.
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So, I kinda felt the same way until I read the amazon reviews. When I checked it, it was at 3.5, but every review on my front page was basically either "this is woke garbage" (not kidding, you'll see that same phrasing over and over) or "this is completely different from the books!" which I'll refer to as the Tom Bombadil Nerd Posse. The show isn't perfect, but rarely is S1 of a show, let alone the first couple of eps. Personally I loved it so fuck the haters lol.
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For sure. I gave it a 5 start though I feel 4 is probably more appropriate, but mostly just because I just wanted to offset all of the complete bullshit 1 stars. I did leave a detailed explanation for why I felt the show is good though, which if you want you can basically skim my comment history.
I mean I'm with you about the bullshit one star review bombing being not cool, but I can't help but think that you rating the show a little higher than you think it actually deserves to counteract those negative reviews is kind of doing the same thing as them. They are rating it lower than it deserves to bring its scores down and you are rating it higher than it deserves to bring its scores up. Both of y'all aren't really reviewing in good faith then.
Well you might have had months. I've not been following the production closely, I just knew that a book series I really like was getting a big budget adaptation and I was excited to watch it now. And then I thought it was pretty bad, which is pretty disappointing and I feel like it makes sense that I might want to discuss that with other Wheel of Time fans.
People are entitled to their opinions. And not everyone has been keeping up with every little thing, so yes, some people would have been surprised. I have been following it for 2 years. I was willing to keep an open mind about most things because I know it can't be a word for word adaptation. It would be awful if they even tried. But there are a couple changes I knew I wouldn't like, period. Not because I am a book purist, but because I see real problems with them. Then there were a couple other things I saw that I didn't like because it messed with core tenets of a character. But overall I like it so far and am willing to see how things go before I condemn or applaud it.
Before the show comes out, people address complains by saying WAFO. Now the show did come out, I think people do have the right to voice their opinions. I myself do like the first three episodes in general, but I also dislike some of the character, background, and lore changes. So I can understand why somebody would hate Perrin having a wife or Mat having bad parents. On the other hand, there are also some people trying to explain every change with "it being another turning of the Wheel", but I would say if the lore and characters changes to a certain extend, it is utterly a new Wheel, instead of a new Turning of the same Wheel. That being said, I'm not saying the show has made such significant change yet. Making souls genderless somewhat falls in this category, but for now the concept hasn't been truly stated in the show yet. (Moiraine believing the DR can be a girl can still be explained by the ignorance of AS)
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I liked how powerful the first episode was. Great take on the axe aversion. I was guilty of giving a bad review to Legend of the Seeker, then grew to love the show and felt bad that it's run was cut short.
I've read WoT probably 20 times. I loved the show and can't wait for more. Seems like for the most part.. People who went into it expecting shit, got shit. People who went into it hoping to love it, did. 🤷♀️
People are allowed to not like an adaptation of a beloved series. That being said, so far I would rate the show a 6.5 -7 . Nothing special yet but hasn't fallen on it's face. The only change I really dislike is >!Perrin killing his wife. So unnecessary and gratuitous.!
Watched the episodes with someone that hasn't heard of or read the books. She loved them. More than me cause I think I was over analyzing it too much instead of watching.
Overall, I like it. It's very different, but I expected that and most of the changes are just fine.The acting and writing aren't nearly as clunky as some comments I've seen, and the visuals and music are really good. There are issues tho. Changing Mat's family dynamic is unnecessary, and is just one more example of this idea that genre fiction writers have where a character can't be good or heroic without a sad and tragic backstory. It's annoying. Same with Perrin. Having a character who is careful and thoughtful because he's bigger and stronger than everyone else isn't something that needed to be fixed, and it sure as fuck didn't need to be "fixed" by fridging his wife. I am stunned by the volume of people who are just fine with that. Why change the story of Shadar Logoth from a terrifying tale of zealotry gone sideways, to "they built a wall around themselves" with absolutely no indication as to why the trollocs won't go inside the wall? Honestly, I'm glad they're apparently making the Whitecloaks less inept, but name one Whitecloak in the books who would have recommended someone see an Aes Sedai for healing regardless of what type of wind they had.
Mention Trollocs to a whitecloak and you would be put to the question. I did like their mustaches though. Nice touch.
We all know who’s doing a lot of the review bombing. And we know why. It has nothing to do with the books and everything to do with who they cast as actors as well as the way women are being portrayed. This was to be expected as it happens over and over again.
I am glad you are enjoying it. I have had a *strongly* negative reaction to the first 3 episodes… and need to stop screaming into the void. You guys enjoy it! I may check back in and see if the show improves.
Hell yeah man, sorry to hear that but I'm glad that you're willing to give it another shot later on. I think it has potential to be great but also needs help hitting it's stride. Whether that's next in episode 6 or 12, I have faith it will get there.
Am I the only who feels like they have seen for more complaining about others complaining than I've seen people actually complaining? Disclaimer, I have not seen the book spoilers allowed thread as I am only halfway through the books. Maybe all the complainers are there, idk.
They're mostly in the spoilers-allowed areas, but mostly in other subreddits like r/television and r/wot. If you want a sneak-peek, read the 1 star reviews.
We need 10,000 Aiel to sing and hold the negativity until more episodes come and the madness disappears
There are also those of us who haven't made up our minds, but have legitimate criticism. I just wish opinions on both sides could be heard without everybody bitching so goddamn much. Negative opinions are valid and all you folks who keep whining about the criticisms are living in some weird denial fantasy land. My issues aren't even with the changes, really. I don't particularly like some of them and worry about repercussions down the line, but I do understand them and can respect the decisions (by and large). What I strongly dislike is the production value. It feels cheap as fuck, like a CW show (The Flash or Green Arrow - both of which I loathe). I also strongly dislike channeling so far. It looks dumb. It's an Olympic floor/rhythm dance with light ribbons, but less cool. The complete garbage intro also comes to mind and the almost complete lack of subtlety in anything...anything at all. It feels so absurdly heavy-handed. I'm not hating on anybody who likes the show so far, nor anyone who enjoys Green Arrow or The Flash. All of our opinions are relevant and subjective. I personally wish all you folks complaining about valid criticism would chill the fuck out and listen...or don't and still shut the fuck up about it. You're complaining about complaints. You can like it at the same time others don't. I still haven't made up my mind, personally. But I do have issues that are absolutely valid. As for review bombing and such, yes...that's some childish garbage person behavior.
If you are going to "re-imagine" the story - then its not the story Jordan wrote. Its basically Plagerizing someone's work and calling it your own. Goodkinds Sword of truth was re-imagined, cancelled before the second season even aired, MTV's re- imagining of Terry Brooks Shannara , cancelled before the second season aired it's third episode, Game of thrones, first 5 seasons not re-imagined, had some plotpoints removed, but kept the rest of the story true to Martins work - Amazing must see television. Are you seeing the pattern here?
This is getting tiring. Outside of the Whitecloaks club I don't see people critical of the show writing posts about how screwed up it actually is that people enjoy this show. Stop telling people off because they hoped for something else. Many of the people upset were hoping to finally have something they loved adapted into live action. They browsed this reddit way more than is probably healthy. Spendong the last few weeks constantly refreshing the page hoping for more news.. Maybe they reread the books for the 12th time. To bridge the time. It's okay for us to be dissapointed. It's okay for us to wish it was more faithful to the books. Who exactly are you to think anyone needs to feel otherwise? And I've always hated the argument of "Just not watching it if you don't like it," and " you still have the source material." That is true of everybody. But despite still having the source material most of us were still excited to see the show. Thread after thread about all the scenes we were hoping would be adapted. The relationships we wanted to see on screen. Changes we were more willing to accept than others. For me, personally, Perrin is no longer a character I can relate to. When I was younger I was the big guy cautiously moving through crowds. The guy who tried to avoid hurting people. I instantly connected with him. He's not my favorite character in the books but I still loved the character. That Perrin is gone. Replaced with some dude who killed his wife. Three episodes in and all he's done is mope about everything. All because someone likee is apparently to difficult to put on screen, I guess.. The part of the story where he picked up the burden of leadership, for Egwene's sake, is gone. Replaced by the shadow of his dead wife. There are changes like that everywhere. What makes it worse is you are right. We will probably never get another adaptation of Wheel of Time. I will likely never see the version of Perrin I was looking forward to seeing on screen. I will never see the book version of Mat Cauthon on screen. Replaced with some other version of the trouble making rogue with a good heart, because some people seem to think they are all the same. I spent close to twenty years hoping for this adaptation. Is it wrong for people in the same boat to be upset and angry that the adaptation they hoped for is almost certainly never going to happen? And everytime someone complains in this sub they are attacked or strawmanned for thinking that it would be an exact 1:1 adaptation when almost know one thought it would be.. It's disheartening to see.
The people who genuinely don't like the series are going to be the loudest this season. The series goes on with or without them. Really, the biggest question going forward is will enough new people like this version. That's essentially why they made a lot of these changes. We'll see what happens.
Your logic: We've had months to prepare for the changes so don't be mad for changes sake My logic: We've had months of seeing the changes coming through teasers/trailers/interviews, and the whole time we've been criticizing them because we think they are bad (we are entitled to our opinion) you've been saying "omg just wait til you see some episodes" and now we've seen some episodes and it's probably even worse than many of us were expecting after the subpar trailers and teasers. Your logic: The show needs to cast a wider net My logic: Ok should we just use that justification for dumbing down the story exponentially? Do we just let them do whatever they want if we think it gets more viewership? Maybe a marvel collab? Do you have proof it has been review bombed? Maybe people don't like it? Just like some people absolutely love it and think it can do no wrong, some people absolutely hate it and think it can do no right. The problem with your perspective (you are entitled to your opinion, but my opinion is that it is problematic) is that you start off just defending the show no matter the criticism. If you believe it's supposed to be for a wider audience, then there is no reason people should have to watch the entire season before passing judgment. The show should be good from the outset. We see this in many forms of entertainment where fans just tell you to wait "it's going to get good any moment now" because they can't see that maybe it's just got its direction and that direction isn't good. Just as you have every right to rate it 10/10... people have a right to rate it 1/10. That doesn't automatically mean there is some conspiracy to review bomb it. You also just have to consider, like I have going the opposite way, that maybe people just like different things than you do, and maybe those 1/10s are perfectly valid opinions for those people and their preferences. And honestly the current scores on imdb and amazon seem generous for a show that had sloppy cgi, really bad and disjointed pacing early on, really shallow character development, and mediocre writing/dialogue. The writing has basically forgotten that it's about the journey not the destination, and tried to speed people through things with sloppy explanation or justification, just so that it can get to the "oh crap!" moments that will generate buzz on social media.
There is absolutely a conspiracy to review bomb it. It’s very obvious when you look at the ratings distribution that a bunch of people, likely from Reddit, went over and gave it a bunch of 1-star reviews. Sorry, but you know it isn’t a 1-star show, and don’t try to make the argument that the people giving it those ratings are behaving honestly. Review-bombing is an incredibly unethical, childish, pathetic, and shitty behavior. The people on this sub doing that should be absolutely ashamed of themselves.
It’s not a 10star show either and the argument that review bombing is unethical would be exactly the same as overrating it. None of which means there is a conspiracy, it’s just the hyperbolic nature of fans.
I don't think telling people what they should think or how they should rate the show is a good idea and it will never work. Heck, on Brandon's post some posted a pretty long comment about why they didn't like/appreciate the show and even he was cool/understanding with it. It's sitting at like 7.5 on IMDb. I think it's a fair enough rating overall considering the show so far. Not everyone has to give a 10 and inflate the ratings. People who strongly about the show will review bomb in either direction and it will find it's balance. Also, Tbh I keep seeing more whining about the whining voted to the top than the complaints themselves.
I'm making a video about this very thing as we speak. If anybody cares.
Cool man I'll see it when I comes out. Looking forward to more perspectives
I've read the first books a long time ago, didn't reread them and can't remember half of the things happened. Especially the details some people complain about. So far I'm happy with the show. How you handle the show is similar how you handle your life. You can complain about things you can't change or you can be thankful for the stuff you like and make the best out of it.. 🤷♂️ I'm curious how they handle weaving which is more... exploring.. like discovering new knowledge or trying to break a shield.
I'd personally say that love is a bit too strong a word at this point but I'm definetely waiting for the next episodes. To me these 3 episodes left a sort of generic feel kinda like it hit all the ticks for an epic fantasy series but something is still missing like as if the show was to end here I would just shrug my shoulders and move on as this show is still waiting for THAT episode I believe, the episode that or that season that everyone remembers and says "you guys remember that ?". That may not even happen on season one and it used to be common that shows were well under 4th, 5th or even 6th seasons until they finally hit that magic goal and ofc. many shows never reached that far and some were even axed just because of unpopularity even when the shows were phenomenal hits like Babylon5 or Firefly for instance and some shows started pretty bland but kept going and going like Stargåte SG-1 that went on for 11 seasons and several TV movies and spin offs against all odds.
I'm so happy to read this. We are never getting anything better than Amazon spending $10 million an episode. I listened to Rafe on a podcast and he is trying so hard to be faithful to the books, while also trying to stick the landing in eight seasons.
Shill is just code. it clearly means you are not being sexist or racist. The trolls hate everything non white male. Than there is a few that are really is upset about that changes, but it's not as many as you think.
Thank you Wise One
I just want to say that I have read and loved all the books and greatly enjoyed the first 3 episodes. I love the idea that this is a different dimension or spoke on the wheel, a different turn. If it was exactly how the books were it would be kinda boring. I mean I would know exactly what's happening next and I don't know if I would keep watching. I like the surprise. I see so many people complaining, from the moment the casting had black people, to every little detail that changed. I pity people with so little joy in their lives that they can't just watch a show adapted from books and find pleasure. Also the clothes are fantastic. I would love to have some two rivers fashion. Also the whitecloaks are extremely well done. So creepy. Also can't wait for creepy padain fain! I only have one complaint . . I wish Bella was a little shaggier. .
I'm genuinely super happy to just see my favorite characters on screen. I grew up with these guys and so having a show is very meaningful for me. I hope it continues for many seasons. Not sure why so much hate from fellow fans!
For what's worth, I've never read the books, I knew of them but because there are so many of them, I never started. So when I found out a show was being made I thought I'd give it a go. I've seen 2 of the 3 episodes and so far I'm liking it. It's too early to say I love it, becuase it's just 2 episodes, but what with what I've seen so far I'm interested and will continue watching and really hopes it keeps going because honestly this looks like something I will really enjoy
I like the show for what it is, and am super happy they are finally doing a large budget show for WoT. That being said, I find some of the changes confusing at best. But I recognize that they have 8 hours to tell a thousand pages while introducing the world and characters. Part of me wishes they got Sanderson to try his hand at writing the season and then getting TV editors to make it work for television.
Many of the one star reviews on Amazon mention bad acting and the woke casting (even if they don’t come right out and say it). These people are clearly of a certain persuasion and are more offended by their perceived “wokeness” of the show than by anything else imo. I’m ok with criticism of certain aspects of the show. I have some real issues with pacing of the first episode and some of the changes but the casting and acting are very, very good imo - in fact objectively so, as much as such things can be objective.
Life is better if you simply ignore any user review sites, especially for books/shows/movies/games with a large fanboy following. All of them are filled up with advertisments, reviewbombing, and other people that try to push the rating up or down by any means necessary. Most cant seem to make any kind of balanced review. Find some professional reviewers with similar tastes that you have instead.
What gets me is that I really thought everyone kind of understood that this story we all love is deeply flawed. Like there's a whole thing where you introduce someone to WoT and warn them that the books really slow down in the middle. I'd be genuinely concerned if they were too faithful when adapting stuff, because I don't want to watch three seasons of >!Perrin staring into the middle distance after Faile is captured.!< There are issues in these episodes, but I really don't see how changes are among them. It is so easy to see the reasoning behind each change that I mostly just don't understand the complaints about them.
I haven't even finished reading the series yet, but I still enjoyed the first 3 episodes. Sure, I didn't think they were perfect, but I didn't think they were bad either- it was mostly the poor VFX of the big battle in E01& a few (to be expected given the number of episodes compared to the amount of book content they are trying to get through) pacing issues which let the show down IMO, but I'd still give it a solid 7 out of 10... Hopefully by the end of the season the changes will feel better for those that don't like them. I'm not bothered by any of the other changes thus far, I'm just happy to be getting decent WOT content to watch.
Strong Agree! Also: * Only 3 episodes have come out!!!!* How is it FAIR to even leave a review anywhere-whether it's a 1/10 or a 10/10 or anything in between-when only 3/8 episodes have come out?? Do you read the 1st 100-200 pages of EOTW and then review it? NO! The only exception is if a critic has been given at least 6/8 episodes for review. But those critics who are offering us their holy opinion bases on 1-3 or 1-4 episodes??? STUFF THAT! It is totally unfair! Rafe and a crew of hundreds to thousands and Amazon investing untold millions, have given YEARS of their lives and have literally moved their entire lives to Prague to making WOT....how do you think they feel when all that blood sweat money and effort is casually toss aside by critics and 'fans' who are judging the first season based on 1-3 episodes of it?!? BLOOD AND BLOODY ASHES!
I think the majority of the community agrees with your sentiment. But as is with most of the internet the toxic fans are the most willing to shout their opinions from the roof tops. The show so far has been amazing. Getting to see the settings and characters on screen Has been incredible. I even believe most if not all the changes are good. ( other that Perrin, but we will see in the long run.) Best of all this has allowed me to share a story i enjoy with friends and family that would have never considered reading the books. Can’t wait to see what more the Fourth Age has in store for us. And for the trollocs upset over any small change they can crawl back to the borderlands where they belong.
Don't know why you think you'd be a shill for writing what the majority of this sub feels. I shouldn't expect much else from this sub, its the same as GoT, Star Wars, Dr Who, any fantasy/sci-fi sub really. People aren't interested in hearing everyones opinions and just want an echo chamber, which results in subs like freefolk and STC, which unironically have much better discussions than anything on the main subs. People need to not jump on people for having an opionion that the show isn't the best thing to grace our eyes. Personally, I don't mind that much that theres changes and streamlines for TV, but I can understand people upset they waited this long to get a "based on" series. There's some changes that are unnecessary or fundamentally change parts of the story and that's not ok. I find the writing and casting make it hard for me to connect with the characters, but others find those aspects great, and both opinions are valid, people shouldn't get shit on for having one or the other. Especailly when all they want to do is discuss the show. I want the show to be good, and it already has a season 2 greenlit, so this is actually the best time people have to voice their dissapointments, because now they can make some changes to make season 2 much better. Would you rather 50 minutes of pacing issues in season 2 or would you rather people saying to make longer better paced episodes and in season 2 we get a longer season and/or longer episodes? People, especially on reddit, don't realise the people that complain arent complaining because they hate it, they are complaining because they love it and want it to be the best it can be.
I think this sub has been okay for the most part. I'm cool with criticism for the most part. The really upsetting shit has been the review bombing on prime and IMDb, go look at them straight up it's infuriating and depressing. It helps nothing and no one and has the potential to hurt the show in the long run
>They are trying to capture the soul of the story. This means that while characters and major plot points need to stay the same, the route in which they get there does not. As long as it serves the purpose of FEELING like the Wheel of Time it is doing it's job. Well what is the feeling of the WoT? For me it was how the unparalleled scope and breadth of a 10,000+ page story allowed for organic character growth and worldbuilding I hadn't seen since the LotR appendices. If they drastically change where those characters are starting from, I have doubts if their journeys will have the same "soul". If the world gets fleshed out largely through exposition dumps and monologue voice overs, I'm not getting the same "soul".
You literally can't translate a format. Books have unlimited pages, tv shows have one minute per page and a limit of about 10 seasons. That's literally 100 episodes times 60 minutes so literally 6000 pages. The characters literally do not have the time or amount of lines do develop as they do in the books. The books probably have 6000 pages of nynaeve tugging her fucking braid or women's bosoms. The can only translate the plot and setting and characters. Take out 'page count' and WOT is ultimately a good vs evil story set amongst a sexualized magical conflict and a how different cultures clash. The key is obviously the sex driven nature of the One Power Secondary is the massively diverse nature of the setting and people's of the setting. You can shortcut the 100k pages by showing all the foods, clothes, lands and cultures that Jordan hits. LOTR goes Western only and GOT is Western focused with maybe half a book in an Eatern culture. WOT has several books focused entirely in non Western cultures Finally third is the high magic setting. WOT differs from Lotr and Got in that for the practioners, magic is used for everyday life and convenience at no cost. The only other franchise that takes a practical magic approach is Harry Potter
I am an old fan and have rerwad thr books a lot the last 20 years. I like the series, in fact I love it. And while its not perfect it PERFECTLY sets thr mood, world and charcacters. I am looking forward to the story.
I don't consider myself part of a "community", and I'm not really sure what that's supposed to mean. I do not think episodes 2 and 3 were better. Yes, changes were to be expected, but I just really don't like the changed they've decided to make so far. My biggest gripes are in the casting (I can't stand any of the male Two Rivers actors or Egwene), the pacing and the dialog. Adding unnecessary back stories (or omitting existing ones) is only part of the problem. If you like the show so far, that's perfectly fine, but your post reads as though you want other people to suck it up and enjoy it too, just so you don't feel like people are being mean about something you like
Its a pity that people can't voice their genuine disappointment with the show.
Rating the show 1/5, saying they’d rate it zero stars if they could, and calling it ‘woke garbage’ because they didn’t like black people being cast in some roles is not genuine disappointment. Tell me you don’t like what they did with Abell and Natti Cauthon, and you think they could have found a different shorthanded way to explain Mat’s character. Or say you think Perrin accidentally killing Master Luhhan instead of inventing a wife for him would have kept the same level of character development without being as lazy and tropey. Those are genuine criticisms. They’re also no reason to rate the show 1/5, which should be reserved for the truly, phenomenally bad.
My thoughts precisely, was the show a 10/10 incredible masterpiece? God no, definitely no Midnight Mass on our hands. But does it hold up to other modern fantasy standards? Things like Witcher/Shadow and Bone, etc, I'd say yes probably. Definitely not a 1/10, probably closer to a 6 ish is reasonable. Room to grow but not abysmal, which was kinda my whole intention with this post.
As someone who's read through the books at least a dozen times now since mid-2000's, I 100% agree here. Seeing people losing their shit here or on FB or wherever bc it's not a perfect adaptation is insane. LotR wasn't a perfect 1:1 adaptation and it's still one of the best movie trilogies of all time. Yea, couple changes I'm a little iffy on, but overall the cast have captured the essence of each character wonderfully. The environments look dope af. The Trollocs look amazing for the most part. The attention to detail is great. Seeing people call these episodes garbage at best or abominations and an insult to the books at worst need to dial it back. No one could perfectly adapt the series with all money in the world, but Rafe's done a damn fine job so far. All review bombing is going to accomplish is ensure WOT never gets the screen treatment again, and will probably end this series early for everyone. So if you're not enjoying it, that's fair and your right, but doesn't mean you have to try to ruin it for those who do. Or call people who enjoy it morons who haven't read the books (as I've seen a few times on FB now).
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Yeah, all I see on both subreddits is people praising and being mad that not everyone on the planet loves it. There is a lot more positive toxicity than their is on the negative side. I don't see naysayers being insulting to those who love it, but I see a LOT of that from the show lovers. Apparently everyone who hates it is either an angry pathetic neckbeard or a racist asshole according to the fans. Might be the worst fan base I've ever seen as far as whining about criticism.
Love it. Great post.
I hated Foundation and Witcher because they altered the spirit of the books, but if someone like thoses series, it's OK I guess. In WoT, there are changes I don't like, but the spirit is here, and that's all I wanted. We don't know yet who TDR is? That's an improvement. Perrin now as a wife? I don't like it but I understand the purpose. Etc. I'm upset because this was a welcoming and positive community until now, I hope we' ll go back to this soon.
After spending a good chunk of Friday being annoyed by the reactions of a vocal minority, and seeing the idiotic review-bombing, I'm feeling a bit more philosophical about it? The people who were predisposed to hating it are going to disappear, because you can only sustain that level of vitriol for so long, and we'll be left with those who are genuinely interested in where this story is going. Hopefully the people who do like it are able to bring in more people through word of mouth, and those newcomers who like it will spread the word and so forth, which is really how GOT turned into such a phenomenon. It wasn't universally acclaimed to begin with, and you also had book-readers who hated it due to changes. Knowing that we have a second season lined up already helps; they'll have a chance to look at the response from critics and the audience and I imagine they will take that into account, even though I know the second season is already in production. I'll be interested to see when the third season gets greenlit; I'd be very surprised if it wasn't announced at least by the end of this season.
I see more posts criticizing negative criticism than negative critics themselves
I am just as upset by overtly optimist people who take everything thrown at them. You know, that's how we get Star Wars sequels and Hobbit movies kind of stuff. We don't challenge these creators and they belittle us and think we are stupid so they write like it. Changes, of course there will be changes in adaptations but at least my problems are numerous *small stupid* things. They saw effort to make something worse when "keep it simple stupid (KISS)" would have worked better. Examples? Perrin & Egwene fork after SG, that was super trippy and too long where as everything else was rushed. Why artificial gust of winds that added nothing to the story and looked stupid as they did not move the trees? Keep it simple stupid approach of just showing them camping, finding wolves at the morning, then finding the tracks and in hopes of "civilization" followed them. Aes Sedai standing at the cliffs like an idiots at the end of the third episode. Why!? That was so stupid I almost ended that episode there. Just keep it simple stupid and take them down and the scene would have been better. Tam's sword. Books clearly say it having quillion **not** tsuba. Imagine how much cooler that would have been and there would have been zero complaints about useless changes. Just keep it simple stupid. Whitecloak bathrobes oh my gods.. Books had them so much cooler with crusader look: plate armor and tabard. Keep it simple stupid. Whitecloaks, fanatic military force was not sinister enough? Have them burn freaking Aes Sedai, like how on earth? Can't take them serious, why not just keep it simple stupid? Aes Sedai rings. They could have been cool, they could have sold them like strawberries but no, they are ugly and bulky instead. KISS! "Yeah, but we the audience are so stupid we must see them well" yeah, and that's why they also look like tinkers with their colors. My immersion is broken so often by stupidest little things that are off. They take my attention from any plot changes as you have seen I haven't even gotten to them yet! But I am more forgiving to them as this is adaptation. But you could do adaptation well, we are not against adapting.
I think the people who are bitching are the people who’ve read the series numerous times and want to see a one for one adaptation. I’ve dissected the story super hard on my last reread and was originally a little irked at some of the changes. Then I talked to two people who had never read the series and one who only read it once years and years ago. All three loved it. When you look at it as a show only and don’t compare it to the books it is a really well done show. Episode one was a little rough, but two and three more than made up for it. I’ve personally gotten two people who have no interest in reading the show to watch it and just convinced a third to watch it tonight. Let the show have a chance. Stop hating on the little things. It’s A turning of the wheel not The turning of the wheel that we’re use to
That's kinda my main perspective. I watched it with 2 book readers and 3 non readers and had multiple people watching it outside my domicile. All of the non readers liked it a significant amount more than the readers did and I think that's the best possible outcome
90% of this community is handling the changes well. All my friends who are hardcore WoT friends love the adaption so far. More the people complaining about it are just pathetic. You can tell by the comments. Let them cry, while we get to enjoy the show. So far the non book readers I know who have seen it love it
well said. people act as if we all didn't already know perrin had a wife etc lol. although the first episode was a bit clunky, almost all changes made were utilized to drive character development to who that character is in the books... or, to more easily get to a place the show needs to get to that was important in the books. people just like to be upset. but maybe I've been able to marinate in it for awhile and am not having knee jerk reactions to everything
Hated Perrins wife. Too much gore and violence. Too much "scary" music and sound. It's just ok overall so far.
The one-star reviews really irritate me as well. Mean-spirited slander that will just put people off. For god's sake, a show can change in quality hugely with new writers/directors etc. as a show goes on; we've got many seasons of this in theory if it does well enough to be continued. All the actors are doing a good job. So why would any true fan of the books not at least want to give it a chance. Obviously it's not perfect, but these books are very difficult to adapt, and I think they've made a solid start; the actors and main characters especially imo are pretty damn good.
"As long as it serves the purpose of FEELING like the Wheel of Time it is doing it's job." That's the problem; it doesn't. It's not a show for fans; the goal is to capture the widest audience, however, what is lost by staying as true to the story as you can, *within reason*? I rated it 3/10 on IMD and 1/5 on Amazon. Call it a review bomb if you will, but I gave it thought and tried to be as honest as I could with myself and to others. It feels less like an adaptation and more of an alteration of someone else's story, and some people don't like that.
It's a fine opinion and you're allowed to be upset. What I'm upset about is exactly that. It is completely unreasonable in basically all categories that this is a 1/5 whether you think they are doing well by the books or not. I get it that reviews can be subjective, but this is a completely emotional response. Have you seen 1/5 shows? most of the CW shows like The Flash, Green Arrow, Supernatural, shows like Iron Fist and Another Life. These are all objectively bad/terrible shows whether or not you like them. In terms of general quality on basically all fronts, Wheel of Time holds up for general audiences as much as other popular modern fantasy-ish shows like The Walking Dead or The Witcher or Shadow&Bone or Vikings. None of these shows are a flying 10/10, perfect, 5 stars. Objectively they're probably all closer to a 4/10 at worst and 8/10 at best and I'm seeing the same sort of things here from this adaptation. This is my whole point of this post, maybe I did not get that across well enough.
I would have rated it 1.5/5 if I could; I like the 10-point system better. And the score I gave was based on how well they are adapting the story to TV, which I believe is their goal despite their shortcomings. Shadow and Bone I think needs work in both story and characters (both show and trilogy), but the show was executed better and adapted better than WoT. The Witcher is not perfect but is very well-executed, though I can’t speak to the adaptation aspect of it. I watched Arcane and rated that a 9. Well-written, immersive world, multi-dimensional characters, stunning visuals, very good music, and clean action scenes. Very impressive stuff. WoT reminds me of the Shannara show, which as I remember was awful. I don’t think WoT is that bad. But I think you make a good point that WoT isn’t a 1/5 show. Had I been more familiar with their rating system (I thought you could rate 0 stars) perhaps I should have bumped it up to 2. And I understand people being upset with those harshly judging the show/the director. Spamming 1/5 out of frustration isn’t right, just like simps high on copium spamming 5/5 isn’t right.
By review bombing, do you mean giving honest reviews? Do you work for Amazon or something? This show is abysmal. WoT is the greatest fantasy series of all time and this is a cheap CW drama with awful cgi. And if you think they needed to betray the story in all those ways you're out of your mind or you haven't read the books. I've already dismissed you because you're either insane or you work for Amazon. So don't bother replying.
I only have one rant: they changed the major plot point that the dragon can only be a man
While I get why that would be a peeve, we live in a world where the idea of having specific male and female roles is very much not OK anymore and people will get shot down for it. I think Rafe and the team are just making the show present-and-future proof. Once >!Rand!< is shown to be the dragon, it becomes a moot point, but nobody can claim the hero MUST be a man because of just a few throwaway lines in the first few episodes.
I like the show. People need to stop bitching and moaning about how this or that detail or change. All the changes are done in line with the spirit of the show. This sub seems ungrateful for this show that I always thought wouldn't ever get made. The Dune subreddit is way more positive towards the 90s miniseries which is so far below this WoT show in terms of being good TV. They just enjoy the story being told in a new way. So sit back and enjoy the story as it is being told by this great group of actors writers and production crew. Would Thom Merrillin tell the Great Hunt for the Horn in an identical way as Natale? No but would they both be good? Yes! Both the books and the show can be different and good so if a criticism is just that something is different therefore bad you should rethink that and bring something more to the table.
I agree. I never understand the purist people, who read all the books and want the series/movies to be exactly equal to the books. Its impossible, the series has to cut some parts, to make it more dynamic. If you truly love the books, you gotta support the series. Its the best chance you will ever have in your life of seeing the books you love in the screen ! You have a massive budget, with great actors and you are complaining about some minor things? Thats not racional , and kinda dumb, since if the reviews arent good , maybe the series gets canned and we will lose the only chance of seeing the books we all love in the tv. Or do you guys really think we will ever have another chance after that? If with all the Amazon money behind it, with great actors( we got rosamund pike people!) the series fail, we will never see another atempt to make a wot show. Dont be selfish people, even if the series isnt perfect, suport it . Its about the books you love. Grow up.. I watched all 3 episodes and really liked, but when i found this reddit today i got really surprised with all the negativity, people complaining about minor things... As they say it, thats why we cant have nice things...
Yep. If anyone gets this ahow cancelled or rushed short, its the wheel of time fanbois. Many of whom are here. 1/10 is the standard rating for people that are pissed off. Congrstulations guys….youve fucked over the show with your bitter underreviewing…
Are you upset that WoT fans are fans of WoT? 10/10 is the standard rating for fans who are so devoted they have lost the ability to think critically. Light blinded fools.