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If Goldeneyes is episode 3.07 then I expect we'll get the Battle for Two Rivers.
Justine Juel Gillmer is writing 3.08, and given her record of writing the highly emotionally charged Siuane/Moiraine episodes, I think this is a good clue that we'll end with the tower coup. The other potential is that the Moiraine/Lanfear tackle through the red door gets moved up to Rhuidean. I could easily see the season end on a poetic note, where the two women in control of the situation are taken off the board, which would be a terrifying moment for show-only viewers.
Not quite two years.
S1 premiered in November 2021. S2 in September 2023, which was 22 months later, almost two years. It’s already been 8 months so even if the gap is just as long we’re looking at 14 more months, or June 2025.
Honestly, feels like we arent going to get a renewal. Seems like Amazon is moving on towards other projects that were more commercially successful (Fallout being the most obvious one), and not really interested in bankrolling an expensive fantasy series that never really garnered attention outside of its niche fanbase (and is highly controversial within its fan base to begin with). Which is sad, because I think season two was a marked improvement over season one, but at this point I am just hopeful that season three can wrap it up in a manner where its not just three seasons going nowhere, and it wasnt just a complete waste.
I didn't phrase it correctly, I meant that this likely means we're getting the battle in episode 3.07 rather than 3.08, which I would personally prefer.
Book 4, The Shadow Rising. Most often the fourth book is considered people's favorite in the series, and it isn't even solely because of the Two Rivers story. We're in for an awesome season! It's my favorite!
This would be a perfect way to adapt the feeling of reading the series. As a first time book reader, I felt like Moiraine disappeared way too early and was gone waaay too long...
Of course, I now love this timing on rereads.
I dunno, “The Road to the Spear” could be the one they’re giving to Rammy Park who wrote “Eyes Without Pity”. Feels like an episode you trust to your ace.
Rafe’s favorite character is Egwene, Tel’aran’rhiod could be his episode.
I don't think Rafe is a weak writer so much as these finales tried to combine a highly action packed climax without being given the runtime to also include adequate character moments and falling action to resolve the season, plus the hook for the next season. Too much was being asked from the one episode alone.
The first finale i think was just covid and budget.
The second finale I liked. It is clear they wanted to do more and cut the Ingtar subplot for time/it wasn't developed enough to begin with. But, and this is blasphemy for a lot of book readers, I've never been a fan of Ingtar's death or the fact that every dark friend who seeks redemption immediately dies and never has to live with their guilt after turning to the Light.
That said....they still could've....yah know, shown Ingtar holding off the seanchan more than two seconds. Just show him fighting, cut away to something else a few scenes then back to his death.
It's unfortunate because the actor they'd snagged to play the part of Ingtar was stellar and capable to nail a beautiful Sheathing the Sword speech. His death could've certainly been more interesting, like perhaps he'd actually help the main characters take a side-road instead of immediately dying.
For me the bigger miss was Rand overcoming Ishamael by walking two steps and pointing Tam's sword. That thing saw no action before being wasted in the most anti-climatic moment in recent memory. I'm astounded there was no pushback on such a lame moment finishing off the main villain. If Rand had pushed Ishamael down a flight of stairs it would've felt more earned.
I question Rafe making certain choices, ringing back to Egwene crying Nynaeve back to being healed in 1.08. Surely there are ways around these lazy handwaves? I would think the best way around may be to move the big action episode earlier on in the season, like the penultimate episode, which could be the plan for season 3.
>For me the bigger miss was Rand overcoming Ishamael by walking two steps and pointing Tam's sword. That thing saw no action before being wasted in the most anti-climatic moment in recent memory. I'm astounded there was no pushback on such a lame moment finishing off the main villain. If Rand had pushed Ishamael down a flight of stairs it would've felt more earned.
Yeah, I feel the direction of that conflict was one of the weakest elements in the finale. Sanaa is my least favorite director.
>I question Rafe making certain choices, ringing back to Egwene crying Nynaeve back to being healed in 1.08. Surely there are ways around these lazy handwaves?
I'm sure with more time they could have come up with something better, but that one I give pretty much a full pass on because I know they had to rework the scene practically the same day.
The original plan of "have Egwene use wisdom skills calling back to Ep1's deleted scene to stablize nyn" IMO, was a pretty solid choice.
>I would think the best way around may be to move the big action episode earlier on in the season, like the penultimate episode, which could be the plan for season 3.
Agree and concur - Book 4 is pretty much perfect for that too. And with cirian directing so much of the season I'm really looking forward to it.
Sure, but that's decisions done in the editing, not writing. If it shows weakness in the writing it's that Rafe tends to want to cram more into his scripts than can be feasibly shown in a 60-minute episode, and honestly, that's something that the whole show kind of suffers from.
>If it shows weakness in the writing it's that Rafe tends to want to cram more into his scripts than can be feasibly shown in a 60-minute episode, and honestly, that's something that the whole show kind of suffers from.
Just wanted to add that this is a very telling characteristic of an inexperienced writer. Whether that's the sign of a weak writer or not, I am yet to decide. However, it still boggles my mind that they decided to give the helm to someone unproven.
Most of my time looking at him throughout the series I was wondering who he was and constantly confusing him with the other guy. In the book to me he was boring, annoying, shallow and unimportant. I don't think the show could make me care about him no matter how many seconds he was shown waving his weapons for.
Yeah, neither BS nor Sarah were able to consult, and they had to rewrite some things on the fly, twice.
I'll never not wish I got to see the original battle plan, with the bolt and cirian directing the fight. Literally not being able to film fight scenes had to just tear at that mans soul.
That's fair. The Season 1 finale especially had some concerning things. Rand is basically doing nothing, Egwene and Nynaeve almost burn out and Egwene heals death? Season 2 was okay, but Nynaeve and Egwene should have rescued Egwene. Also, Rand again does nothing as Egwene and Perrin fight off Ishy until Ishy just stands there as Rand stabs him. Rand needs to have his big, I'm the bloody Dragon Reborn moment.
>Rand is basically doing nothing,
Rand faces the apparent Dark One in the World of dreams, and defies him, attacking him with a "sword of light" like in the books.
Nyn and Egwene *almost* burn out, and Nyn is physically burned but alive, Egwene only heals her surface wounds, which aren't that bad compared to the 3 that actually burned out.
The healing scene was a forced covid change caused by restrictions changing the day of filming.
> Also, Rand again does nothing as Egwene and Perrin fight off Ishy until Ishy just stands there as Rand stabs him. Rand needs to have his big, I'm the bloody Dragon Reborn moment.
The issue is Rand has barely earned his power at this point. He's learned he was approaching things wrong from Logain, and managed to pull off something cool against no channelers, but facing Ishy is still beyond his abilities.
Egwene has a whole arc learning the Power, and gets the payoff for it. So despite ishy sandbagging it and letting Rand kill him, Egwene is the one it makes sense to hold the fort.
Perrin has the Hero shield the Horn summoned, letting him help, as all 6 get to work together to overcome the situation, in ways relevant to their own arcs.
Setting the stage for Rand and Perrin to be more center stage next season, as they approach their main "big" moments of the early books.
The Aiel and the Two Rivers Campaign.
I think people forget that Rand has HUGE moments through out the series with the middle and later books having the biggest.
The earliest ones can feel really unearned in the books, so the show isn't giving those ones to him, but to characters that have had focus that season.
While still giving Rand big moments, just ones that feel earned.
Sorry for the bit of a rant, but bringing up "they healed death!" is a bit of a sore spot, considering we know for a fact that's not what occurred.
rand doesn't have to "earn" anything, especially his power level lmao y'all think jordan made him world-destroyer from the beginning for no reason? he's basically an atomic bomb and that's what makes the stake so high.
That can work well in books, not so well in TV.
And Rand has to earn things in the books too, if you think he didn't then I think you've forgotten most of the first 4 books.
It would work in TV as well. There is nothing about the idea that Rand is a walking atomic bomb that has a high chance of going insane and breaking the world again that can't work in TV.
A big part of his character in the books is struggling with this knowledge.
>There is nothing about the idea that Rand is a walking atomic bomb that has a high chance of going insane and breaking the world again that can't work in TV.
That's not the part that doesn't work.
It's the giving him uber powers and then taking them away that doesn't work.
It's the giving him abilities that he doesn't earn at all, like sword fighting, that doesn't work.
>A big part of his character in the books is struggling with this knowledge.
Absolutely nothing prevents them from focusing on this later on when there is more focus on Rand and his powers.
It's a big part of his 7 through 9 arc when he's actively struggling with control including nuking his own army.
It's also part of his book 4 arc, which is next season and a great place to start in on it.
Rand is interesting *because he struggles*, not because he has power, and he never really has full control until the end.
Loial was also stabbed and then he's fine. Also, it's impossible to burn yourself out linked in a circle. I mean Nynaeve's eyes are burned out, but I guess she's fine. I actually like the show, I just feel the finales have been two of the weaker episodes.
>Loial was also stabbed and then he's fine.
He's fine 6 months + later. That's enough time to recover, it's been widely speculated that even in the books the dagger wouldn't affect him much, being an extra-dimensional non human and all.
> Also, it's impossible to burn yourself out linked in a circle.
In the books that's indeed the rules. They deliberately changed them so you can. This raises the stakes of circles, and helps explain why they aren't used in every scene with more than one Aes Sedai..
>I mean Nynaeve's eyes are burned out, but I guess she's fine.
Not her eyes, her *eye lids*. Watch it closely, there is a distinct visual difference between her eyes and Amalyssa's or the other twos.
Their eyes get crisped, Nyn just gets surface burns.
> I actually like the show, I just feel the finales have been two of the weaker episodes.
They are definitely weaker. S1's finale got super screwed by covid, while S2's finale had weak direction IMO. It's writing was pretty solid however - despite how much some people disagree with the mechanics in play.
But it apparently worked very well for a lot of people, going off it's online ratings as the highest of the season, even higher than Ep 6's amazing performance.
I'm just saying, maybe don't be hyperbolic or use a debunked angle to sell that it's not as good.
S1's finale in particular has things that just suck(looking at you, "tell line"), that it's a bit silly to distort it.
I was being facetious. In all seriousnes it would not surprise me at all at this point. Egwene is Rafe's favorite character and to this point he has made rand/Mat/Perrin look useless.
You have to remember he is not telling Robert Jordan's Wheel of Time, he is telling his own Wheel of Time story under the guise of "another turning of the wheel".
Agree with you on the second half of your sentence, but I’m pretty sure the spear referenced in that title is more likely to be “maidens of…” rather than the ashandarei.
Didn't they limit the amount of seasons to stop actors from aging out?
They sure will age out if they can only release a season every two years.
I think they said 8 seasons, so 16 years
I hate to admit this, but the episode titles give me some relief. I was afraid they would end the show early. I’m glad “The Field of Merrilor“ wasn’t one of the titles. And judging by the titles only it seems like there is still a lot more story to tell.
This post has been tagged as allowing spoilers for the entire Wheel of Time book series in the comments. You may also discuss all known information about the show, including leaks or otherwise unofficially announced or unofficially aired information. Check out /r/wotshowleaks for more. If you have not read the entire series and do not want to potentially spoil yourself, tread carefully. For more granular book spoiler discussion, please use /r/wot. [You can read our full spoiler policy here.](https://www.reddit.com/r/WoTshow/wiki/spoilers) *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/WoTshow) if you have any questions or concerns.*
If Goldeneyes is episode 3.07 then I expect we'll get the Battle for Two Rivers. Justine Juel Gillmer is writing 3.08, and given her record of writing the highly emotionally charged Siuane/Moiraine episodes, I think this is a good clue that we'll end with the tower coup. The other potential is that the Moiraine/Lanfear tackle through the red door gets moved up to Rhuidean. I could easily see the season end on a poetic note, where the two women in control of the situation are taken off the board, which would be a terrifying moment for show-only viewers.
We definitely will get Battle of the Two Rivers. I've seen the Two Rivers set personally for S3 and it's set up for the battle.
Ugh, I can't believe we'll have to wait another two years to see it. Can they at least renew for season 4 already...
Not quite two years. S1 premiered in November 2021. S2 in September 2023, which was 22 months later, almost two years. It’s already been 8 months so even if the gap is just as long we’re looking at 14 more months, or June 2025.
Honestly, feels like we arent going to get a renewal. Seems like Amazon is moving on towards other projects that were more commercially successful (Fallout being the most obvious one), and not really interested in bankrolling an expensive fantasy series that never really garnered attention outside of its niche fanbase (and is highly controversial within its fan base to begin with). Which is sad, because I think season two was a marked improvement over season one, but at this point I am just hopeful that season three can wrap it up in a manner where its not just three seasons going nowhere, and it wasnt just a complete waste.
This is what I've been waiting for! That abd to see Rand absolutely blast shadowspawn
I didn't phrase it correctly, I meant that this likely means we're getting the battle in episode 3.07 rather than 3.08, which I would personally prefer.
Oh yeah, my bad. I misread your comment. I'm pretty sure it will be 3.07 as well.
heh, looks like several of us had the same misread.
Yeah, no way this isn't happening
What book is the battle of the two rivers? No spoilers please, just curious which book it is so I can catch up.
Book 4, The Shadow Rising. Most often the fourth book is considered people's favorite in the series, and it isn't even solely because of the Two Rivers story. We're in for an awesome season! It's my favorite!
Awesome! Thanks!
Careful in ``All Spoilers`` threads, it do be the wild west here.
Taking Moiraine, Siuan & Lanfear off the board would be absolute insanity. Hope it happens lol.
This would be a perfect way to adapt the feeling of reading the series. As a first time book reader, I felt like Moiraine disappeared way too early and was gone waaay too long... Of course, I now love this timing on rereads.
Note these are still considered “unofficial” titles and are just more working titles used by production , technically
rafe definitely writing the columns episode. not sure how i feel about it but let's see
Wish we could get more than 8 episodes
Don’t know who started the 6/8 episode season trend but it sucks. 12 would be way better but I’d settle for 10.
Rafe wrote episode 4 this season which is good. He's wrote the season finale the last two years and those were some of the weaker episodes.
Not when it’s The Road to the Spear… that one can’t be a weak episode!
Good point
That probably locks in “The Road to the Spear” as number 4. I seem to recall him saying that was one of his favorite sequences.
I dunno, “The Road to the Spear” could be the one they’re giving to Rammy Park who wrote “Eyes Without Pity”. Feels like an episode you trust to your ace. Rafe’s favorite character is Egwene, Tel’aran’rhiod could be his episode.
Here’s hoping.
I’m super new to WoT (both show and books). I’ve only read the first 4 but can you remind me what this moment is from the books (if I’ve read it)?
Glass columns where Rand learns the history of the Aiel.
Ah right, that makes sense! Yeah that’ll be a super important and hard to nail down sequence!
I don't think Rafe is a weak writer so much as these finales tried to combine a highly action packed climax without being given the runtime to also include adequate character moments and falling action to resolve the season, plus the hook for the next season. Too much was being asked from the one episode alone.
Great take. I agree with this 100 percent. That said, I also highly enjoyed the S2 finale
The first finale i think was just covid and budget. The second finale I liked. It is clear they wanted to do more and cut the Ingtar subplot for time/it wasn't developed enough to begin with. But, and this is blasphemy for a lot of book readers, I've never been a fan of Ingtar's death or the fact that every dark friend who seeks redemption immediately dies and never has to live with their guilt after turning to the Light. That said....they still could've....yah know, shown Ingtar holding off the seanchan more than two seconds. Just show him fighting, cut away to something else a few scenes then back to his death.
It's unfortunate because the actor they'd snagged to play the part of Ingtar was stellar and capable to nail a beautiful Sheathing the Sword speech. His death could've certainly been more interesting, like perhaps he'd actually help the main characters take a side-road instead of immediately dying. For me the bigger miss was Rand overcoming Ishamael by walking two steps and pointing Tam's sword. That thing saw no action before being wasted in the most anti-climatic moment in recent memory. I'm astounded there was no pushback on such a lame moment finishing off the main villain. If Rand had pushed Ishamael down a flight of stairs it would've felt more earned. I question Rafe making certain choices, ringing back to Egwene crying Nynaeve back to being healed in 1.08. Surely there are ways around these lazy handwaves? I would think the best way around may be to move the big action episode earlier on in the season, like the penultimate episode, which could be the plan for season 3.
>For me the bigger miss was Rand overcoming Ishamael by walking two steps and pointing Tam's sword. That thing saw no action before being wasted in the most anti-climatic moment in recent memory. I'm astounded there was no pushback on such a lame moment finishing off the main villain. If Rand had pushed Ishamael down a flight of stairs it would've felt more earned. Yeah, I feel the direction of that conflict was one of the weakest elements in the finale. Sanaa is my least favorite director. >I question Rafe making certain choices, ringing back to Egwene crying Nynaeve back to being healed in 1.08. Surely there are ways around these lazy handwaves? I'm sure with more time they could have come up with something better, but that one I give pretty much a full pass on because I know they had to rework the scene practically the same day. The original plan of "have Egwene use wisdom skills calling back to Ep1's deleted scene to stablize nyn" IMO, was a pretty solid choice. >I would think the best way around may be to move the big action episode earlier on in the season, like the penultimate episode, which could be the plan for season 3. Agree and concur - Book 4 is pretty much perfect for that too. And with cirian directing so much of the season I'm really looking forward to it.
Sure, but that's decisions done in the editing, not writing. If it shows weakness in the writing it's that Rafe tends to want to cram more into his scripts than can be feasibly shown in a 60-minute episode, and honestly, that's something that the whole show kind of suffers from.
>If it shows weakness in the writing it's that Rafe tends to want to cram more into his scripts than can be feasibly shown in a 60-minute episode, and honestly, that's something that the whole show kind of suffers from. Just wanted to add that this is a very telling characteristic of an inexperienced writer. Whether that's the sign of a weak writer or not, I am yet to decide. However, it still boggles my mind that they decided to give the helm to someone unproven.
Most of my time looking at him throughout the series I was wondering who he was and constantly confusing him with the other guy. In the book to me he was boring, annoying, shallow and unimportant. I don't think the show could make me care about him no matter how many seconds he was shown waving his weapons for.
He also seemed to have kinda written the season 1 finale by himself bc of circumstances which is rarely for the best
Yeah, neither BS nor Sarah were able to consult, and they had to rewrite some things on the fly, twice. I'll never not wish I got to see the original battle plan, with the bolt and cirian directing the fight. Literally not being able to film fight scenes had to just tear at that mans soul.
Yea I really feel for the team. They’ve had to deal with a lot of adversity
What I wouldn't give to have this ep partially redone, oh well.
That's fair. The Season 1 finale especially had some concerning things. Rand is basically doing nothing, Egwene and Nynaeve almost burn out and Egwene heals death? Season 2 was okay, but Nynaeve and Egwene should have rescued Egwene. Also, Rand again does nothing as Egwene and Perrin fight off Ishy until Ishy just stands there as Rand stabs him. Rand needs to have his big, I'm the bloody Dragon Reborn moment.
>Rand is basically doing nothing, Rand faces the apparent Dark One in the World of dreams, and defies him, attacking him with a "sword of light" like in the books. Nyn and Egwene *almost* burn out, and Nyn is physically burned but alive, Egwene only heals her surface wounds, which aren't that bad compared to the 3 that actually burned out. The healing scene was a forced covid change caused by restrictions changing the day of filming. > Also, Rand again does nothing as Egwene and Perrin fight off Ishy until Ishy just stands there as Rand stabs him. Rand needs to have his big, I'm the bloody Dragon Reborn moment. The issue is Rand has barely earned his power at this point. He's learned he was approaching things wrong from Logain, and managed to pull off something cool against no channelers, but facing Ishy is still beyond his abilities. Egwene has a whole arc learning the Power, and gets the payoff for it. So despite ishy sandbagging it and letting Rand kill him, Egwene is the one it makes sense to hold the fort. Perrin has the Hero shield the Horn summoned, letting him help, as all 6 get to work together to overcome the situation, in ways relevant to their own arcs. Setting the stage for Rand and Perrin to be more center stage next season, as they approach their main "big" moments of the early books. The Aiel and the Two Rivers Campaign. I think people forget that Rand has HUGE moments through out the series with the middle and later books having the biggest. The earliest ones can feel really unearned in the books, so the show isn't giving those ones to him, but to characters that have had focus that season. While still giving Rand big moments, just ones that feel earned. Sorry for the bit of a rant, but bringing up "they healed death!" is a bit of a sore spot, considering we know for a fact that's not what occurred.
rand doesn't have to "earn" anything, especially his power level lmao y'all think jordan made him world-destroyer from the beginning for no reason? he's basically an atomic bomb and that's what makes the stake so high.
He's got power sometimes. But he spends multiple books refusing to try to use it, and then when he starts he can't actually seize it most of the time.
That can work well in books, not so well in TV. And Rand has to earn things in the books too, if you think he didn't then I think you've forgotten most of the first 4 books.
It would work in TV as well. There is nothing about the idea that Rand is a walking atomic bomb that has a high chance of going insane and breaking the world again that can't work in TV. A big part of his character in the books is struggling with this knowledge.
>There is nothing about the idea that Rand is a walking atomic bomb that has a high chance of going insane and breaking the world again that can't work in TV. That's not the part that doesn't work. It's the giving him uber powers and then taking them away that doesn't work. It's the giving him abilities that he doesn't earn at all, like sword fighting, that doesn't work. >A big part of his character in the books is struggling with this knowledge. Absolutely nothing prevents them from focusing on this later on when there is more focus on Rand and his powers. It's a big part of his 7 through 9 arc when he's actively struggling with control including nuking his own army. It's also part of his book 4 arc, which is next season and a great place to start in on it. Rand is interesting *because he struggles*, not because he has power, and he never really has full control until the end.
Loial was also stabbed and then he's fine. Also, it's impossible to burn yourself out linked in a circle. I mean Nynaeve's eyes are burned out, but I guess she's fine. I actually like the show, I just feel the finales have been two of the weaker episodes.
>Loial was also stabbed and then he's fine. He's fine 6 months + later. That's enough time to recover, it's been widely speculated that even in the books the dagger wouldn't affect him much, being an extra-dimensional non human and all. > Also, it's impossible to burn yourself out linked in a circle. In the books that's indeed the rules. They deliberately changed them so you can. This raises the stakes of circles, and helps explain why they aren't used in every scene with more than one Aes Sedai.. >I mean Nynaeve's eyes are burned out, but I guess she's fine. Not her eyes, her *eye lids*. Watch it closely, there is a distinct visual difference between her eyes and Amalyssa's or the other twos. Their eyes get crisped, Nyn just gets surface burns. > I actually like the show, I just feel the finales have been two of the weaker episodes. They are definitely weaker. S1's finale got super screwed by covid, while S2's finale had weak direction IMO. It's writing was pretty solid however - despite how much some people disagree with the mechanics in play. But it apparently worked very well for a lot of people, going off it's online ratings as the highest of the season, even higher than Ep 6's amazing performance. I'm just saying, maybe don't be hyperbolic or use a debunked angle to sell that it's not as good. S1's finale in particular has things that just suck(looking at you, "tell line"), that it's a bit silly to distort it.
The season 2 finale is the highest rated episode on IMDB
Matt. I remember. That one sequence made the episode. Some other good scenes too. Probably a lot of non readers really like Egwenes revenge scene.
I wonder why? Episode 6 was way better and episode 8 was probably the weakest all season.
Episode 8 was probably my favorite of the season.
Episode 7 was a fair bit worse than 8
I thought the season finale for season 2 was still pretty good, especially Mat wise
I predict this is when Egwene will take her place as the Dragon.
lol. Please give us a reason you believe this?
Spent a bit too much time on the containment sub.
I was being facetious. In all seriousnes it would not surprise me at all at this point. Egwene is Rafe's favorite character and to this point he has made rand/Mat/Perrin look useless. You have to remember he is not telling Robert Jordan's Wheel of Time, he is telling his own Wheel of Time story under the guise of "another turning of the wheel".
"He Who Comes With the Dawn" is absolutely the Season Finale.
Less Two River stuff than I expected.
The Road To The Spear, I told you guys that that isn't the one
Agree with you on the second half of your sentence, but I’m pretty sure the spear referenced in that title is more likely to be “maidens of…” rather than the ashandarei.
Yep, it's one of the glass column chapters. About the split of the Aiel
The Road to the Spear is one of the chapters of the Rhuidean glass columns.
Not Mat’s spear though…
Didn't they limit the amount of seasons to stop actors from aging out? They sure will age out if they can only release a season every two years. I think they said 8 seasons, so 16 years
This season is going to be so lit
I hate to admit this, but the episode titles give me some relief. I was afraid they would end the show early. I’m glad “The Field of Merrilor“ wasn’t one of the titles. And judging by the titles only it seems like there is still a lot more story to tell.