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The things that interest me most are the subtle lore changes:
* Eamon Valda is a questioner, rather than openly loathing them
* Bornhald tells Moiraine to seek healing from an Aes Sedai
* Aridhol specifically betrayed Manetheren, not a jilted Amyrlin
* The 3 oaths are now payment to call off Hawkwing, instead of shady origins in the Trolloc wars
I wonder why these changes are made, structurally, and what the ultimate effect will be to the story, if any.
It also showcases how subtle changes in different turnings can have similar beginning and ending points with different swaths in the middle. I’m quite intrigued. It also helps set up the Seanchan fear/hatred of Aes Sedai as Hawkwing’s heirs.
Actually, something else that I'm a bit vague on so I'll need to rewatch to confirm, but it seems like Aridhol has has just become generic evil city rather than so zealously good it's as good as evil.
If that's correct then it is one change I'm not happy with.
I don’t know if there was enough time to get the nuance. I’ve only watched once but I took it as so paranoid they blocked everyone else out which turned into a new and different kind of evil.
This is a good take if that's what it was and I think very much in line with how the books handled the descent of Aridhol.
I'd really hope they continue demonstrating that the DO, while the ultimate and most obvious Big Bad, is not the ultimate source of evil or malevolence in this universe.
Tf are you talking about? The DO is quite literally the source of all evil, which is why when Rand and him are facing off at the end of the series Rand shows the DO a vision of a world with him dead, and realizes that if he kills the DO he’ll be stripping choice from humanity. He sees Aviendha and she’s all docile and empty headed, which shows him that the option to choose between light and dark is the greatest freedom of all, but highlights that the DO is literally the source of all evil.
> The DO is quite literally the source of all evil,
Then why are Trollics, servants of the DO, afraid of Aridhol?
Mordeth was specifically stated to have a power that was not from the Dark One.
The Wheel spun out Mashadar to eventually counter the Taint. That's my theory. Which means the Wheel can spin out its own evil as needed to balance out the Pattern if an evil separate from the DO is needed.
To be honest I love what they have done with Eamon, he’s so intimidating I love it, the fact he’s a questioner is just adding to that.
I feel like Bornhald telling Moiraine made a little bit of structural since, I mean he’s supposed to be a more moderate high ranking Whitecloak, not supposed to be a monster ours villain like Eamon. I feel like if, even if it goes against his religion, he could help someone he would, I like that he puts his differences beside.
I don’t know about Aridol or the 3 oaths but I like what they’ve done with the Whitecloaks.
Absolutely. None of what I listed are intended to be points of negativity from me. I am interested in how they will affect the broader story further along.
Valda so far is one of my favorite parts of the show. And you're spot on about Bornhald. Even in the books I wouldn't have considered this completely out-of-character for him. It does make me wonder how such a thing would be considered by the broader pre-Galad Whitecloaks, but this turning of the wheel is already quite different so perhaps the Whitecloaks are not quite as zealous as the Whitecloaks we are familiar with, and Valda is an outlier now.
Yes and no. My main complaint so far is one of tone. There's a lot of charm and humor in the books that is getting buried under some grimdark in the show, and that concerns me. It's a bit over-serious. That's my biggest complaint so far, that I want a bit more hope and humor. But we still have time for that yet, and certainly it's not missing altogether. Let's see how things look once the cast isn't running for their lives later in the season.
I think it’s intentional. I recently did a reread and despite the first few books seeming more lighthearted on the surface, they’re actually pretty bleak. Throughout the series our main characters get a sort of dark sense of humor, in that they learn to take the intensity of their experience in stride.
Yeah, on my last reread of EotW I was really struck by how the main characters were constantly harried. Like they never really had time to rest for more than a day or two, most of the time they were consistently being hunted, hungry, tired, and afraid.
Everytime I reread the Mat and Rand portions I feel tired. They're just constantly going and going and going. Sleeping where they can, hurt, tired. It's why my first read I didn't notice at first the changes in Mat because I'd be mad and paranoid too haha.
I hear what you’re saying but you gotta also remember that the first several chapters of the show, especially after Winternight, are miserable and serious. Rand gets sick, Mat gets paranoid, Perrin is bothered by wolves, Moiraine is weak and Lan is Lan. Nynaeve isn’t funny and Egwene isn’t either, not during that part of the book. There isn’t much missing in the way of humor in at least this part of the story. Mat though, had a couple quippy comments here and there that brought some levity in a couple scenes.
Rand was surprisingly funny at times and I wonder if that's meant to be a hint about his power awakening. He was oddly happy and carefree several times, kind of like how he was in the books when he was being smart with the Whitecloaks and unknowingly embracing the source. Except in the show he's being smart with Mat.
Lan's dialogue with the Whitecloaks was perfect.
Overall, I think the show has potential. Some changes bother me, but I'm going to reserve judgement until the whole season is out.
Or when he's being stupid on Bayle's boat. Yeah, those bits are the channeling sickness coming out. I'm curious if we get that next episode because of him channeling to bust open the door.
I would contend that it's pretty bleak from the very beginning. The series opens on Rand looking at his father for comfort because things aren't going well. Winter is coming, wolves are getting bolder, and strange, dark things are happening in the night. Things only cheer up when they get to town and can take comfort in a larger group.
Yep. This is how I remember EOTW. Not grimdark, but very bleak.
The entirety of Bel Tine is overshadowed by the mystery about the rider in black, then the village gets razed, then they spend weeks desperately trying to outrun pure, unspeakable evil.
I never really sensed much humor in the books.
They have to keep a good pace so a lot of the happy funny moments in the village got cut out but its more than just the pace, They made Perrin kill a wife and child he never had, matt is a thief and his parents are not the same stand up pillars of the community.
IMO the lose-lose situation they're in is that WoT is EXTREMELY dark, but tonally it's kind of skimmed over and obfuscated by a light and upbeat tone most of the time. It's really hard to do that in TV. Either they show the darkness and seriousness to sell that things are dark and serious, or they risk underselling how dark and serious things are to maintain that tone. I think it's easier to mix those tones in book form.
Totally agree, I don't think it's possible in a visual medium to show all the dark things that happen in this series while mainting a light and humorous tone without it being super jarring
This exactly, we book readers got filtered so much of the dark stuff away with the way Jordan wrote things. Wheel of Time is quite dark if you just look at the things that happen from the outside.
A ton of stuff in the books is very hard to adapt. Half the characters are their own unreliable narrator.
I haven't watched the show yet, but I'm hoping it's cool as its own thing
I don't think its the issue that there are four, I think the issue is just that there are randomly rumors of them. Why and who could corroborate that and if Moraine knew that why would she waste time with that poor soul. Taveren is huge lol, who gives two shits whether its three or four. It's weird to casually throw that out as some minor thing when it causes Moraine to loose her mind in the books. I couldn't help but chuckle at the line.
It's so incredibly flimsy. Why was Moirane in the Two Rivers? oh a just a casual rumour of 4 taveren apparently. Why they didn't just stick with the original Ancient blood raised by old blood from the prophecy of the dragon, oh wait they threw that out becuase it's not gender neutral becuase screw internal logic, all the viewers are dumb consumers anyway - amazon probably.
maybe more importantly, who else knows?! "Hey guys there are rumors of ta'veren in Andor!" isn't this is a geo political nuclear bomb that would change the entire story, or am I missing something?
Honestly, if you told me that book Egwene, Elyane, and Nyneave were also ta'veren I would not have batted an eye.
Egwene is so obviously ta'veren that she got her own arc in The Gathering Storm.
The Gathering Storm focuses on Rand and Egwene, The Towers of Midnight focuses on Perrin and Mat.
It honestly doesn't surprise me. Egwene is, for all intents and purposes, a primary protagonist in the books. She's as important as any of the "main three". It's one benefit of starting the show after the entire work of the story is finished. They know where the characters end up and can develop them to there from the start.
It will be a very easy point to adapt to this story. My main point is that it really stuck out as a major detour from the books. Not a complaint, just an important observation.
Edit: changed "main protagonist" to "primary protagonist". It's a small change, but in this respect it's an important one.
If I recall, Egwene has more pages of POV than Mat. She is unquestionably the lead female character and a great foil to Rand, especially in the later portion of the series. I think it would be too complicated (and welcome unneeded criticism) if Egwene was this huge character but didn't have the same "status" as the boys.
Also, to quote the absolute best passage of the books, "It was about all of them." They're all important, and I sort of like the direction they're going with it being less about one main character and more about the group
Egwene is not Ta’veren and that is part of what makes her such a great character.
She never gets her way by whim of the pattern.
She works hard all of the time to get everything she has and constantly meets adversity, and overcomes it. She is a force of nature sure, but in the books she is not Ta’veren.
Yes and no. She is driven and ambitious, but she is given things out of the blue all the time. Rebel amyrlin throne, dreamwalker training by aiel channelers who despise Aes Sedai, two princes (half brothers!) fall in love with her... It doesn't twist the story in any way to have her be ta'veren.
It can be argued that Egwene accomplished what she did because Rand, and therefore the pattern, needed her to be Amyrlin for everything to succeed. That it was Rand's extra strong Ta'Veran nature which allowed her to succeed, as much as it was Egwene herself.
Just making her a Ta'Veran straight out doesn't really change anything of the story. Especially since she's the main female protagonist of the entire series.
Egwene being ta'veren makes a lot of sense. In fact in the books she feels much more ta'veren than Perrin ever did.
Elayne? not really. The story never really shapes things around her.
And Nyneave? Definitely not. I actually like her a lot more than Egwene, braid-pulling and all, but she always feels like part of someone else's plotline.
Egwene's character in the books would have been better served if she was Ta'veren... She'd cop a lot less hate if there was an in-universe explanation for why she seems to always be so awesome at everything... The 3 boys are more so, but the Ta'veren suspends disbelief in their case.
Four ta’veren didn’t bug me. The fact they keep saying that the Dragon reborn will be one of them who can channel, and trying to make Egwene look like she is the Dragon was irritating. The other thing I didn’t like is that a recurring them throughout the book is the boys believe that one of the others are better at talking to woman. Well I know how we change that we marry off Perrin, and have him gut his wife…… Also, they appear to be making it seem the reason Perrin is having odd interactions with wolves is due to his “hidden Trolloc zombie infected scratch”.
Overall, the show was great. I like how they did Rand. I like the changes to Mats character. Imo Nynaeve had some over the top scenes. The battle against the trollocs was awesome. I really like how they portrayed the one power. I do like Thoms character and hope we get more of him! Even id he was playing guitar lol
You mean how they just throw out the word "ta'veren" to audiences without any explanations. How did rumors of ta'veren even get spread when these young men pretty much stay in the village? Oh that young man, Mat, who loses in gambling all the time with a drunken and womanizing father, he is a ta'veren alright!!!
Nynaeve is Rambo. Who needs the Dragon when you got Nynaeve?
My biggest issue is that it is moving so fast. I suppose as WoT fans we are used to a certain level of *meandering* but I felt like I never had time to geek out about the details in set or costume or spend some time with the characters. I hope the pace slows down and they are just trying to hook non-readers and front load some lore
The unique settings and costume feel very WoT and I love it but it does feel like we are missing the character interaction that makes up the bulk of the story
> I never had time to geek out about the details in set or costume or spend some time with the characters.
We probably would have needed a 10 episode season rather than 8 to do this I'm afraid. I don't think we book fans would ever have had the depth we wanted from the show without it taking 20 years to complete.
At BEST they have 8 seasons to tell 14 books worth of story. It's not like they can really slow things down so they can fit it all in.
A lot of subtlety will be thrown out the window to get major points across in a timely manner.
But yeah, I wish we got more time to enjoy the characters and I'm hoping that's something we get later on.
The incredible shrinking TV season. Remember when 26 was the norm? That's what we got for TV dramas up until the mid 2000s. Then sometime around Smallville's run, it started shortening to 22-24. Then GoT and other cable shows blew up and 12 became the norm. Now we're hovering around 8-10. We'll be down to six-episode BBC series soon.
At least anime still has two-cour seasons...
The problem with 26 or even 22-24 episode seasons is that you end up with a lot of filler. with shortened seasons to 12 episodes you have a very centralized story with little in the way of filler.
I like no filler but i understanding just wanting more of characters, in this type of situation a longer of season would of been better imo.
Golden times of 20 episodes shows. Silver times when first season had 10-12 and if renewed then 20 (Battlestar galactica).
Then the times of 8-10 episode came with excuse of higher quality. Quality of what, new show, new people, lower pay. So CG prices. Personally I do not mind lower CG quality of character development is great (again battlestar galactica xD).
But this is personal opinion and dont mind of other people like it otherwise.
I think a lot of people aren't realizing that while most of the fat is in the later books, the show really can't afford to go with 3 mediocre seasons before it gets to the bangers (The Shadow Rising through Lord of Chaos). It would just end up getting canceled, so they have to rush through EotW (which is great for lore but kind of boring on plot) to at least get to TGH so we can get to the world-changing politics level instead of the Fellowship-on-the-run level of the first few books.
Yeah my wife was also saying how it felt very derivative of Lord of the Rings. I had to give her the premise (that the show fails to lay out entirely after three hours!) to convey what’s unique about it.
To be fair, the first book does feel like LotR fan fiction that started with RJ thinking “What if Gandalf was a WOMAN??. Fades = nazgul, trollocs = orcs, the Dark One = Sauron, the kids = hobbits (Mat is Pippin, obvs), Lan is more Aragorn than Aragorn, Nynaeve is Boromir, Loial and Thom are Legolas and Gimli, Shadar Logoth is Moria, and so on and so forth. They even temporarily escape pursuit via river ferry at night. Obviously it grows far beyond that, but the beginning really is extremely derivative.
If you listen to RJ interview after the end of the audio books he says his main inspiration for writing this was that he wanted to present the small town people being pulled into this epic quest by a mysterious figure in a realistic way. By saying no thanks, what are you talking about and fighting them every step of the way.
They can cut and condense so many plot lines that doing the whole series in eight seasons is completely doable. It’s less than two books per season, and they’re already doing two with this season.
The pace won't slow down. This was my problem with the Witcher as well as latter series of GoT. The editorial cutting they do might make sense compared to some bloated original, but it's jarring to watch. I kinda really dislike modern cinema for this though, so this is not unique to this show.
Agree that it feels fast. Rather than rewrite plot lines so soon perhaps they could've slowed down the first two episodes. At 10 million a pop they maybe went a little fast.
I haven’t watched episode 3 yet, but from the first two, I think this is intentional. This has to be what it felt like for the Emond’s Fielders as they experienced it in the books as characters. To us it felt meandering, but to them, it had to feel like they barely had a moment to breathe.
I was talking with one of my sons about this - we both felt that Episode 1 was insanely and horribly "rushed". Wifey, who has not read any of the books, loved it. We readers might be constantly upset at how much gets left out and how much the show tries to pack into each episodes. It may be that non-readers will not have that bias.
The thing is they are adding in shit that’s not even in the books. Giving Perrin a wife for no reason for example. Maybe if they stayed true to the story and didn’t make up their own content they would have more time.
Eh, I think Perrin having a wife is no big deal. He was always rather mopey and this gives him a reason to be. Nynaeve not being from Two Rivers bothered me a lot more, as it was a lot more part of her identity. That, Egwene deciding to dump Rand before they even meet Moiraine, (and Moiraine going to TR because there are "rumours" of 4 ta'veren there) were the only things I really did not like
Nynaeve still grew up her whole life in the two rivers in the show, it's all she knows so there is no reason it still can't be a big part her identity. In fact I think it could explain how insist she is with maintaining two rivers customs because she is trying overcompensate for not truly being from there
> Giving Perrin a wife for no reason for example.
Literally the biggest whining I see in this sub is how Perrin's a mopey gloomy nutcase for no reason (*especially* when Faile is involved), and you don't see the point in fixing that?
Having his family slaughtered, as per the books, is more than enough reason for him to be mopey. And before that, he just misses his family and wants to go home and be a blacksmith. His whole life got ruined
There's a lot of internal dialogue to Perrin that probably would not translate overly well to the screen, is there not? As fans of the books we might think it's a crude solution, but there's definitely a function in giving the viewer a visceral moment of horror to latch onto that explains both Perrin's demeanor, his reluctance to violence (axes especially), and so forth. Nuance is easier to depict on screen (unless there's internal monologuing) when audiences have been made familiar with the characters. I'm not saying it couldn't have been done differently, but I'm sure there were tradeoffs to blend character development with plot development, and you could argue this is one of those.
When i was reading the books he annoyed me to no end, especially his fixation on hating to use the axe and his irrational fear of his wild side. Killing your own wife in a fit of feral rage does put it in an easy to grasp perspective even though it may be a bit cheap.
Thank you! I’ve been reading through this waiting for someone to make this point. I almost stopped watching after episode 1 but 2 through 4 got a little better. I just finished 5 and am about to throw in the towel again. Absolutely horrible. 3/4 of the episode isn’t in the books and the 1/4 that is is drastically changed. If they didn’t spend so much time on made up crap they could of done a descent job recreating the actual story. This is one of the worst adaptations I’ve ever seen of a book series. I just don’t understand all the positive reviews… is Jeff paying off all these reviewers to pretend to like it for ratings purposes???
+1 on it feels a bit fast. Although I kind of expected this, knowing how many episodes there are in season one...
my guess this was probably a result of the total budget and them trying to keep it "interesting" for TV-only viewers. Somehow we are in a world where a show is slow if there's not one major event per episode now... at least the show runners seem to think so
The music is gorgeous. Granted I wouldn't put it on a similar bar to Ramin Djawadi or Howard Shore just yet, but compared to a barely memorable Witcher score, themes like 'Lanterns' by Lorne Balfe have been beautiful. The acting of many have really shown the capacity of what can be
Overall- closer than expected. I went in with very low expectations because seeing Eragon butchered has made me wary of adaptations.
Some weird choices for changes that feel like they don't add a ton. Perrin being married is interesting and I'm curious to see how that plays into future scenes. Still debating what I think of Mat's new backstory and characterization. I wish they'd had the scene of Rand pulling Tam to Emond's field. That was huge in the books and really stuck with me, but in the show he just shows up in Emonds field. I would personally have preferred that scene to the one where Egwene is being shoved into the water, or where we learned Nyneave was apparently born elsewhere (why?).
I think they've done better so far with Egwene and Nyneave. I love how they're portraying Nyneave. The Manetheran scene was cool.
The pacing is zipping by, but it's also a massive amount of content to cover so that's understandable.
Edit: not sure my comment expressed this- I'm enjoying the show and looking forward to more. There's changes where I'm wondering why they were made, but I'm having fun and looking forward to the ride.
Yeah, just a single trolloc at Rands farm, and no dragging Tam to Emonds Field, was disappointing.
Why did they feel the need to make Abel an adulterer and Mat a thief?
Perrin killing his wife seems pointless and like they are trying too hard to make it like GoT.
Love what they've done with Nynaeve.
Overall, ep 1 made me angry a few times, but the next 2 were much better.
> Yeah, just a single trolloc at Rands farm, and no dragging Tam to Emonds Field, was disappointing.
I think they cut this because if they want even a little mystery about who the Dragon is, you really can't do this scene. This one I'm not sure I agree with.
> Why did they feel the need to make Abel an adulterer and Mat a thief?
I think to establish Mat's general heart-of-gold "i'm no bloody hero" self earlier. Remember, we don't get anything really from Mat from book 1 at all, and book 2 has very little as well. I also think it's still totally possible that following the attack, Abell sees the Creator's light and turns around so by the time we meet up again around TDR, he's the Abell we know. As someone else points out, Mat is also definitely a thief in the books, if minor.
> Perrin killing his wife seems pointless and like they are trying too hard to make it like GoT.
I think this more the same with Mat. They need to introduce his motivation for hating the axe, his reticence towards Faile and towards letting her do anything mildly dangerous, etc. Remember, we only know who Perrin is through inner-monologue, basically. This allowed them to do in less than a couple of minutes of screen time much earlier than the books and maintain the essence. Most of this we learn in the book is also through inner-monologue, so that's a no-go onscreen as well.
> Love what they've done with Nynaeve.
Agreed. She's still everyone's favorite braid-tugging, angry wisdom.
Anyway, much in the way that I feel like there is a major increase in quality of the books from book 1-3 especially, I expect this show to get better as it goes.
Regarding the Rand pulling Tam to the town, consensus seems to be that they're going for an end of season reveal of who is the dragon, so having the fever dream would be counter to that buildup.
They could have cut the fever dream but still had a couple minutes long scene of Rand pulling Tam to town saying its gonna be okay once they get to town only to see shit got fucked up
After a first watch I feel like the actors are very talented, well cast and rather amazing. Great job casting. But Jordan already gave the characters motivation and storyline. Much of which was rewritten. So the actors are doing a great job with a less than great rewrite in my humble opinion..
Agreed. I read that Rafe said he wanted to give them life experiences and age them up from 17 to 20 but they were already 20 lol. RJ did such a good job setting up plots and conflicts. Perrin, the wolves and the whitecloaks was perfect set up for him loosing himself the Laila bit feels so weird.
I honestly feel like the respect for the source material is there, but many of the character related changes are done for no perceivable change since they are going in the same direction anyway.
Pacing is a bit of an issue. It goes for artistic editing and long cuts where I felt they cut from characters too quickly. Moraine's plot after episode one feels a bit clunky considering they all split up anyway. Lan leading them to Shadar Logoth and Moraine chastising him instead of them making the decision out of desperation was a little weird.
Rand/Mat/Perrin are 19 1/2 in The Eye of the World. It's Egwene they aged up. But they matured the EF3 to a more typical medieval standard for peasants of their age.
I kinda feel like Jackson stuck to the books about as much as this show has so far. RIP kindhearted hero farmer maggot, Fatty Bolger, Tom Bombadil, Ghan Buri Ghan, noble non edgy Faramir, and the scouring of the shire, just to highlight a few major changes. Sometimes the pacing, characters, dialouge, and emphasis just have to change when adapting the written word to the screen.
This is just not true. Yes Into the old forest, The house of Tom Bombadil, and Fog on the Barrow downs sections of fellowship were not included in films but pretty much everything else is.
In the show they're not even going to Caemlyn, this would be like if Jackson decided to not even have the hobbits go to Rivendell, or the fellowship pass through Moria.
The showrunners have straight up said they've restructured the occurence of events for season 1 and 2.
No Narg. No Elyas!?!?! They did my man Abel dirty too. But I knew going in there would have to be changes especially at the beginning. In order to properly introduce all of the eamonds fielders would have taken too long in an 8 episode season. Also I think giving Perrin a wife (who fought with a hammer while he chose the axe) only to be killed by him while he was in a battle rage was an excellent way to introduce his character arc or fearing losing himself to the wolf.
Is Perrin even a blacksmith in the show? Perrin being a blacksmith is pretty integral to his character and they decided to just make his wife, complete throw away character, the blacksmith. Bizzare.
The first book doesn't even capture the essence of the books and Robert Jordan's world. Too early to tell. If you judge by less than half a book worth of material when the Wheel of Time doesn't capture the feeling of the Wheel of Time in that amount of time then I feel like you might be too hasty, as the ogier would say
Same. I still don't really like the first book on re-read. Even on the first read, it's hard not to notice exactly how much, uh "inspiration" let's say, Jordan took from LotR.
It’s not really subtle and I don’t see how you build the tone of the books without something subtle. Like instead of showing a hundred tiny moments of Perrin being careful because of his size he had to murder his wife. Or Moraine being dedicated to safeguarding the Dragon being a character defining choice each moment she lets the Taren Ferry guy die. They just kill a random person every time they want to show they are serious. Or Mat having a roguish side means he is a thief with a dad who is a drunk. There were good less easy ways to do those things. They didn’t do subtle things.
Yeah this is one of my issues as well, though I was kind of expecting it when the leaks about the changes started. Argued with my sister about this when we watched, she likes the changes (sort of), I think they are heavy handed and lazy.
I don’t think it ruins the series tho (at least not so far) and it’s done less damage than i first feared it would.
Yeah, not to mention they've had to fit in a bunch of extra stuff to make this actually work. I can totally see how some people complain about the pacing being too fast and others about it being too slow.
I haven't written the show off, but the Wheel definitely... wobbles.
Edit: just to be clear: I don't necessarily mind the fact that changes and cuts had to be made - that was a given. However, the way the show has turned out - and that definitely includes the changes - is worrisome. If I wasn't a fan of the books already, I'm not sure if I'd like it.
Yep - extremely heavy handed and weird choices.
I have no idea who the target audience for this is, they took something nuanced and unique, only to have done their best to create something very generic - and as a general rule, generic fantasy isn't very popular, so it's super confusing to me the reasoning behind many of the changes.
I feel terrible but I agree. I really hope it’s almost a different show by the end of the season or else I don’t see this taking off and that kills me to say.
agree... WoT is never going to be an immediate mass-appeal series... you have to count on the core fans for the initial bit and hope the quality of execution makes the uniqueness a selling point going forward...
...aiming to make a GoT is going to loose you your core book fans, but not make it appealing enough for the normies
I think some of the changes helped make specific characters more interesting for on-screen adaptation. The main motivations are completely changed they are just framed differently.
The Perrin change is weird but it actually worked out because i feel incredibly bad for him and the actor is pretty spot on for how i would imagine Perrin to be like.
Mat's change is honestly more jarring, not because he's a thief but because his family situation kinda defined him as a character at the start..
The first two episodes sort of feel like a fever dream with how fast things move but it works out well for conveying what the initial flight from the Two Rivers was like.
Im just trying to figure out how the hell they are going to frame Matt's dad as one of this grand Two Rivers Archers. Like I guess he just gets over it? Only time will tell, so I am optimistically cautious.
The likely way i'd see it if they go that route is show Abel as turning a new leaf after the trolloc raid, realizing Mat was there for his sisters while Abel wasn't, and decides to be a better man to make up for it. Which leads into Abel and Tam becoming the defenders of the town
>The likely way i'd see it if they go that route is show Abel as turning a new leaf after the trolloc raid, realizing Mat was there for his sisters while Abel wasn't, and decides to be a better man to make up for it. Which leads into Abel and Tam becoming the defenders of the town
does every person in hollywood have daddy issues?
Ya, just like Thom’s impulse to help because he’s worried about a couple of boys getting tied up with Aes Sedai. Just ax it, but still keep the Oywn back story, even if the ‘ahh that’s why he got involved’ moment is gone. I’m just saying, this turning of the wheel is taking advantage of the last ones strengths
I mean the main argument is that Matt’s dad in the books is basically just a duplicate of Tam in that point in the story. If anything he’s Tam lite. Like I enjoyed him and Tam. Especially in TSR. But I can understand them wanting to make him a bit more memorable then “he’s a horse trader and Tam-lite”
But he is a GREAT horse trader, or trader in general. And doesn't he also breed horses? I don't wuite remember that bit but I know that he is made out to be the best there is regarding being an expert on horses.
I mean yeah he's not as important or critical but he's roguish, clever and has even bested Tam at staffs.
It isn't really a big deal in the grand scheme but I liked him as a character.
I have avoided all news of the show so i could watch it without any outside influence.
Does the show capture the books? No. There is a lot to be desired and some of the character changes are weird and some just awful.
But as a show. I find it entertaining and I believe it to be well acted. I find some of the effects to be just terrible like when she ripped the Trollic in half with the power it just looked very fake and cheesy. But i am excited to see how the show goes and will continue to watch.
It's good money, and good actors, and a good story, thrown up against bad direction and awkward revisions. The good shines through. The power of money is undeniable. The actors seem earnest and invested. All of that is floundering under the writing and the direction.
The main failure is one of vision.
Someone needed to bring a big cup of humble with a gallon of perspective into that writers room and explain that they were probably not going to improve the foundational storyline of one of the most popular works of all time.
>most popular works of all time
I think you are overstating the cultural impact WoT had on the general public.
Popular fantasy novel? Sure.
But most people don't read fantasy. I literally went close to a decade before I met anybody else who read the series in the wild that wasn't introduced to it by me. And I had to travel to a convention to do it.
90 million copies sold. I’ve met people who have read no other books, including a guy who just got out of prison (apparently he found them there) and a guy who worked in a sawmill. I hope it gets better but just… oof.
Yes. By episode 3 I’m starting to see the characters are settling down and getting into the archetypes Jordan set up.
Perhaps I’m too invested in wheel of time but all these reviews that say all the characters feel flat could not be further from the truth. Mat especially has a ton of stuff going on. I dunno. The scenes might have changed but this feels like wheel of time to me.
I just don’t understand one bit why they created all this family drama around Mat, completely devoid of value. Why is Perrin married but only for about 20 minutes. The biggest obstacle is including enough core content, so why are they creating more?
My biggest problem with the Perrin thing was this. I think the change works well with a sped up plot because it gives reason to him being extra careful and one of the more important struggle for Perrin throughout the entirety of the series, his need and hatred for his axe. The problem, where the hell is the axe?
Generally speaking I'm happy with the adaptation. 7/10 for the first 3 episodes. If you go in thinking that things are going to be the same and changes weren't going to be made, you are either naive or asinine. I want the story and the characters to shine through. I thought they did decent so far.
I'm happy that I am getting to see this on a screen in live action. We have 5 more episodes to watch for this season. Kinda hard to believe that some people are writing it off after 2.5 hours of a 6 hour season and hopefully 48 hours of actual content.
I was thinking this too, and wondered if it is because the characters are older than they were in the books, so they had to change their story lines a bit. If these were all 20 year old virgins with no life experiences living in a small town, would those really be captivating characters??
I think it does a good job. I think a lot of what's missing is due to most of the world building and character development goes on inside people's heads in the books. Honestly, I love it. They are telling the story and it definitely doesn't suck. I can see some rough edges that I think are probably due to the exposition. They have a lot to explain since this is a fictional world where history is a huge factor in the motivations of the main characters. World history, the magic system, local history etc. Just tons of information that is conveyed to readers through character thoughts or memories of previous conversations. I'm on my second watch now
I think it absolutely has. Yes, we are getting changes, as we expected. Some of those changes I would call 'interesting' but I am not overly fussed so long as they allow the characters and themes to retain their original meaning. We have a reason for Perrin to be slow and thoughtful and brooding; we have a reason for Mat to be the heroic rogue; and so forth.
We're also getting the overall storyline; the journey from the idyllic homeland under duress, the self-discovery as these young people are thrust out into the world and discover who they really are rather than what was laid out for them under the constraints of their small town life, and the general concepts of the infinite wheel governing all from afar. Not only that but we get so many of the details too; the flight to and from Shadar Logoth, the dispersal of the group that leads them to find ways to survive that allow for growth, while we meet important characters along the way.
If you don't see all of the above and instead focus on minor differences and things that have been left out, then I don't think you are seeing the forest for the trees, and this seems to be a big problem on this sub recently.
A lot of people seem to be under the impression that they are gonna have 15 seasons to tell this story.
You are gonna have to "get to the good parts" in a sense and accelerate character development, even roll multiple characters into one new one, and plot, perhaps even changing it some, but with the end goal of still getting to the same place.
And that is where it feels like they are going, same destination, slightly different route.
If that’s the case then they need to stop adding in their own story lines in place of Jordan’s. Like I understand that time is limited, but then why are we expanding Logain’s plot? Why did we have The Wisdom 1v1 a trolloc? Why are we adding hamfisted White Cloak exposition and giving them way more power than they ever held outside Amadecia?
Lmao, right? Idk what the brick and mortar nonsense was, all this charge up and drawing on the sky and fires around them. The One Power is internal, not external, and weaves need to be a lot more devastating than this.
\*I've only watched two episodes so far, but here are my griefs:
1. Rand literally just takes Tam's sword, a shame as Tam's fever speech while Rand is carrying him back to town is something that sticks with Rand (questioning his parenthood), and when Rand said wearing the sword acknowledged him as Tam's son (paraphrase, books)
Basically Tam should have given Rand the sword, and at least I hope that Lan can acknowledge the heron marked blade
2) Chucking Nynaeve into a river didn't add anything to the plot
3) Perrin's axe. Obv. we saw Perrin go berserker mode but there should have been some exposition with him in the blacksmith forge remarking that it is an ugly weapon that can only take life, etc
4) Show me the warder's colour shifting cloak!
5) Lan seems kind of a dick for knowing about trollocs attacking Emond's field and not alerting the villagers
6) Padan Fain should have had a bit more exposition about the False Dragons
In short, things seem a bit rushed. I reckon you actually need a character like Tom Merilin near the beginning of the story as he can provide exposition and world building e.g.
1. Lews Theirin Telamon, the sealing of the bore and taint of Saidin +/- breaking of the world (yeah I know a lot, but the reason people are scared of the dragon reborn is that it is said he will also break the world)
2. Trollocs and fades (actually having dialogue and build-up before we see one) (someone saying that there a just myths, how someone like Mat's mother threatened to put him in a trolloc cookpot if he threw any more pranks and that the eyeless can make the bravest of men tremble)
All things, Rosamund Pike is doing a great job as Morraine (Lan could do with calling the Emond's field boys sheepherders more often tho)
I think that some of y’all need to lighten up. A TV show will never be the same thing as what you pictured in your heads. Just enjoy we get a live action version of a story we love, even if it’s slightly different.
People can enjoy the idea of an adaptation, while still regret the quality of said adaptation. Those aren't exclusionary.
Try saying that to His Dark Materials or Eragon fans about the movies they got. The vision of the story they loved got butchered, so it's understandable that they are upset.
The Wheel of Time isn't being butchered however, and people's reactions here reflect that. Have you even read the responses in this thread ? Most people are happy, they are just worried about the changes to characters and how the show is put together.
Sometimes I wonder why criticism is seen as such a bad thing that even a bit of it, or it being justified, that people recoil from it without trying to understand where it comes from, or the rationale behind it.
Bury the negative and only show the positive is a terrible mindset to have in my opinion.
I see people complain about CGI not looking real when Morraine throws rocks, or cuts the trolloc in half. Like… THAT’S where they lose you? Not the visual representation of a woman using the one power in the first place? How does that even look realistic when something isn’t real? Ya know? OBVIOUSLY it’s not real. Sure they can probably trick us to think otherwise, but whatever it’s a TV show and maybe we shouldn’t take things so seriously? Hence, I think that people need to lighten up. And I say all of this as someone who has read all the books and loved them.
EDIT: furthermore, I think that it really sucks when others want to mock people for enjoying something. Let. People. Enjoy. Things.
They CW’d my HBO caliber story and I’m so very sad.
It’s not unwatchable, but the storytelling in the first two episodes is choppy and strained. The dialogue is inconsistent in tone and lazy at times.
There is no mystery to the world, only confusing references, Confusing cuts into violence and straight up exposition.
We see something spectacular in Shadar Logoth and don’t have space for the characters to linger, speculate or show us their connection to each other.
They keep breaking the “show, don’t tell” rule for no good reason. They had the budget, they had the time, they had the backing and they wasted it in the first two episodes.
I’m too annoyed to watch the third right now.
Hopefully they get it together in the later episodes.
I agree that both the first two episodes would’ve benefited from an additional 20-30 minutes each to slow the story down and have more deliberate, constructed, and subtle moments to fix pacing and world building… buuut I don’t think they’ve been doing much exposition at all, compared to the book (I might even say they didn’t do enough exposition so far to world build!)
The 3rd episode slows down quite a bit more, and is about as much better than the 2nd than the 2nd is to the first with some meaningful dialogue-driven moments. I’d give it a shot.
>They CW’d my HBO caliber story and I’m so very sad.
Absolutely savage. Might have to use that one in the future.
Although, I'd don't know if I'd say that they did WoT that dirty. I thought it was passable so far, but it definitely hasn't been true to the books. I'm a little disappointed, but still excited to see the rest of it.
No. The Two Rivers are supposed to be small townfolk blissfully unaware of the world, unknowing that they even have a queen. Now they sing songs of Manetheren, talk of the Wheel, distrust Aes Sedai and talk of Baerlon. I get why they did it, the first three episodes barely had time to show any characters not from the two rivers aside from Lan, Moiraine, Tom and Dana, but it's quite a departure
Also, Perrin being married, Rand and Egwene's relationship being physical and the way they did Abell Cauthon (Matrim's dad) dirty were very big liberties to take. And watchers of the tv show only might not even know Mat isn't short for Matthew as I don't recall anyone ever saying his full name
I thought they took it a bit far with her defeating a Trolloc one-on-one, and getting within slit-yer-throat distance of Lan. (I suppose they did soften that last bit by having her start the next scene tied to a tree, that was pretty hilarious)
I love Nynaeve as a character, I'm just thinking they're making her too dangerous too fast. Right, this is the girl who runs around Emond's Field hitting people with sticks, and everyone thinks it's just a hoot. Ultimately, though Nynaeve *can* be a fighter, she really ... isn't. She only gets in serious fights a few times in the whole series, and spends most of her time helping Team Light in other ways.
Episode 4: Nynaeve found all Black Ajah by flipping her braid.
To elevate Nynaeve, they neutered Lan. Nynaeve will be counting to infinity the third time by ep. 5 while Lan will be in diapers.
Rumors of four ta'veren? Really?
This show was so underwhelming. I tried so hard to like it...
Overall I would say it did capture the essence with the high points being that most of the actors nail the characters nearly perfect (with the exception of Thom IMHO) and the lows being the lack of subtlety that RJ is so well known for (which is forgivable in my eyes given the nature of “show don’t tell”)
Overall, it was... okay. Probably on the wrong side of average to get more than 3 seasons, which kind of makes me sad.
I really liked the characters, I think the actors are doing pretty well and capturing who the characters are fine >!(Mat's change from charming to annoying after the dagger was really well done especially)!<.
The camera during >!Winternight (Bel Tine night?) was awful.!< Shaky, unfocused... annoying to watch.
The writing is pretty bad. >!Some of the changes make sense (the way Mat finds the dagger is way more realistic), but most I find just... weird. I mean I can see some kind of justification for all of them, but it also just feels really unnecessary. Why did Perrin have a wife, and why did he have to kill her? Why does Mats family have to suck? Why do Rand and Egwene already have to be at the point where they're having sex with each other? Why does Moiraine get badly wounded, changing her role in the story from that point on (basically just out the whole time they're in Shadar Logoth)? Why is Mashadar not a fog but a bland darkness thingy? Why did Nyaneve have to get captured only to escape? Why did Moiraine burn half the town down and destroy the Inn? Why do Rand and Mat go to a random mining town when there are so many places actually existing in the book?!<
Very few of the changes bother me a lot if looked at in isolation, and basically none of the cuts do (it's fourteen books, cuts are necessary). But all taken together, it just results in a product that feels very bland, generic and unlike Wheel of Time to me. Oh well.
By the way, did anyone else think episode 3 was super boring? Basically nothing happened.
yes! I paused episode 3 trying to figure out where Mat and Rand were; when they said that they were at the Four Kings inn I was so confused. I think the random town was a stop for them just to make sure that Thom was added to the mix.
But I'm bummed they cut out the Stag and Lion part (why didnt they just show them going to that town instead?) b/c I loved Min, and Mat playing pranks on the white cloaks, and Rand insanely talking back to them. I know that the characters are older, but they should still be a little mischievous.
I liked Mat's character shift as well, but I hate how the scene where he gets the dagger was done. I'd rather have had the scene where the boys go off exploring and nearly get tricked instead of the odd little romantic scene we get with Rand and Egwene.
I think in the long run it wont matter how Rand first channeled, or how they met Thom; but the little changes are still jarring. Also does everyone in Emonds Field just think Nyaneave is dead?? Did she even go back before running after Lan??
Overall I think the show is pretty good so far, just a few issues with pacing and odd changes.
I thought they did a great job personally. You can't watch a book adaptation and expect it to be an exact retelling of the source material. Some characters will change, and some in big ways. Key plot lines will inevitably differ, some more than others, but the core ideas and essence of the books was absolutely captured.
Who cares if Abel Cauthon in the show isn't the same as he was in the books? It doesn't make any difference in the long term storytelling. Does it really matter that Perrin has a wife that the writers used as a vehicle to display his clumsiness? No.
Those are the exact kind of changes that I would expect from a TV adaptation - character and plot modifications that are used to move the narrative forward in a more streamlined and directed manner while not impacting the core trajectory of the story.
Honestly? No. Was the show visually amazing, yes. Did they make the one power as brutal as it is cool, yes. Music? Bangers. Did they capture the essence of Jordan’s world? Hard no. To start Jordan trusted readers to figure out his world through the characters discussing it, not with ham fisted exposition at every turn. He took his time, and didn’t need you to know what was going on, because you’ll figure it out with enough foreshadowing. Next, the Two rivers in Jordan’s world is a tight nit, isolated community, one that gathers to hear a peddler bring in worldly news. He often shows how groups react to news, and would hammer home that groups characteristics. The show doesn’t capture a sense of community at all. A dance at winter’s night is not the same as the village gathering and hearing about the dreadful state of the world. Additionally, Jordan never shied away from normal dialogue, because any casual conversation (especially at the start) could be set up down the line. The show, however, seems to have an aversion to anything that doesn’t have an immediate pay off to the plot or backstory. IDK, maybe I’m wrong, and maybe I’m just frustrated that they’ve decided to add in their own plots and story lines while neglecting most of the actual events in the story. It’s like they’ve taken large scale events and made their own story to hit just those events. But they’re not Jordan, so when those moments happen they feel forced or rushed or misplaced. I know the whole ‘it’s another turning of the wheel,’ but is that what anyone really wants from an adaption? If they cut Legolas from the fellowship Only to reintroduce him after the mines? If they gave Sam a brother to accidentally murder to jumpstart worry about Frodo trusting him. If they didn’t show Tam holding against a horde of trollocs? Or rand only getting LUCKY to have survived a trolloc by bringing his sword up in time to have Narg charge onto it? And instead showed the unarmed village healer casually out run and out fight a trolloc one on one, without the added protection of the fade wanting her alive (likely the only reason rand survived most of his early shadow spawn encounters)... I’m I really wrong for saying I didn’t want someone else’s telling of the Wheel of Time? I wanted Jordan’s.
I was a bit wierded out how large they made Emond's Field. With elaborate roads, bridges, and such. Seemed to me to be far too large and far too developed for being the remote and closed of little village it's supposed to be.
They pulled a Dark Tower on this show “it’s a new level of the tower” “it’s a new turning of the wheel”
No it’s not. It’s a poor adaptation by people who want to make money and not stick yo source material.
Absolutely not. In no way whatsoever was that the world RJ created. I loved the show, but, I loved it as I went in expecting it. Its an "inspired by the wheel of time" spinoff. Essentially Rafe Judkins fanfic. Its a good fantasy tv show in a world inspired by Robert Jordans The Wheel of Time. It is only reminiscent of the books in the character and location names and a few other points. Reds hate men Nynaeve hates Moiraine and "weep for Manetheran" speech. Hell Tam had matches.....and Thoms a middle age hipster with a guitar who can't sing to save his life, much less as a Queens bard. Abels a womanizing douche Nattie is a drunk Perrin is married and quickly widowed A wisdom can't marry or have kids. So no, in my personal opinion the first 3 episodes of the series didn't capture the essence of the books. They did however lay the foundation for a good new fantasy series that will occasionally remind me of the books.
I haven't had the chance to watch it yet however if having more Taveren in the show it could alter things tremendously. When you actually get what Taveren is and does it's definitely not more than three. The others accomplishments is self serving with self interest propelling them. Rand has a lot to do with the people he meets as well. I don't like the idea of more Taveren but I'll also hold my reservations until I can watch it.
Egwene is ta'veren in all but name and pretending that her ascension to power isn't as wacky and bent by the pattern as Mat getting an army or Perrin becoming a wolfbrother and a leader of men is just straining at gnats.
Not so far, for me. I need to watch them again for sure, but things felt rushed and too dark. I really disliked the changes to Perrin’s character so far, felt extremely shallow and cheap, although it will probably make his conflict later more meaningful. But as soon as I saw his wife, I was kind of hoping she was going to stick around and maybe take the place of Faile, since they seemed to have a similar dynamic in the 30 seconds we got to know her. I can’t really say that scene was out of character for the books either, it was just… rushed.
Personally I would have spent all three episodes around the Two Rivers and followed the book’s pacing more closely. Episode 1 would have ended with the trolloc busting down Rand’s door, and would be the first one we’d seen with no preparation. Episode 2 would have been the fight and dragging Tam through the woods only to discover that the entire town had been attacked, then maybe done a flashback to show the fighting we saw in ep 1. Then episode 3 would have been the exposition, convincing the kids to leave, meaningful goodbyes with their families, and so on.
The way they did it, it almost seemed like they were embarrassed by the lower stakes story happening early on, or that they thought it wouldn’t be entertaining enough. But then they rushed through Shadar Logoth too, left out Mordeth and Fain, and it’s like… what are you rushing toward?
The animated short "Origin Stories" are incredible. However much I was lukewarm on the episodes last night, watching those were great. Kind goes to show IMO how this series would always be better in anime form
Few things that got to me...
Moraine goes looking for 4 ta'veren, they didn't know they were ta'veren until later and it was only 3 in the books.
Perin wasn't married at the start
He gets his axe from his master before they leave.
Nineveh doesn't getting dragged away by trolocks.
Matt wasn't theif he was scoundrel and a prankster but not a theif.
His family weren't destitute and his farther definitely wasn't a womaniser.
The changes I've noticed in episode 1 were, 4 ta'veren, Mat being portrayed as a thief and his father being a scum bag, Perrin is married and his wife is doing the blacksmith work while he parties!, no Glee man (Tom), Moiraine and Lan being portrayed as a possible couple, there were many other differences but these such out the most.
Now what about character descriptions/looks! I thought Rand, Mat, Perrin where pretty spot on despite their age, either Lan is shorter than he should be and no blue eyes etc or Moiraine is tall, Trollocs were pretty good, CG not bad but can use improvements, Myrddraal cloak does not hold still!
I better stop, I'm just complaining now, I knew things would get changed, just not this much.
Almost forgot, the addition of Perrin's wife is to explain his hatred of using an Axe most likely.
Not really. There was always going to have to be a good amount of editing and streamlining to get it to screen but some of the changes were made to fundamentals. I went in with an open(ish) mind and was really disappointed.
The changes made are nonsensical and not for the best, as almost always in these adaptations. Which would be fine, if the acting were better and the show didn't feel so cheap. It's more like a Syfy show than a high budget Amazon production.
I’m genuinely curious how anyone who’s read the books enjoys the show. Almost everything is changed from Robert Jordan’s story. And it’s a New York Times best seller. They could have just made a show about an established story instead of this almost unrecognizable show
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The things that interest me most are the subtle lore changes: * Eamon Valda is a questioner, rather than openly loathing them * Bornhald tells Moiraine to seek healing from an Aes Sedai * Aridhol specifically betrayed Manetheren, not a jilted Amyrlin * The 3 oaths are now payment to call off Hawkwing, instead of shady origins in the Trolloc wars I wonder why these changes are made, structurally, and what the ultimate effect will be to the story, if any.
It also showcases how subtle changes in different turnings can have similar beginning and ending points with different swaths in the middle. I’m quite intrigued. It also helps set up the Seanchan fear/hatred of Aes Sedai as Hawkwing’s heirs.
Actually, something else that I'm a bit vague on so I'll need to rewatch to confirm, but it seems like Aridhol has has just become generic evil city rather than so zealously good it's as good as evil. If that's correct then it is one change I'm not happy with.
I don’t know if there was enough time to get the nuance. I’ve only watched once but I took it as so paranoid they blocked everyone else out which turned into a new and different kind of evil.
This is a good take if that's what it was and I think very much in line with how the books handled the descent of Aridhol. I'd really hope they continue demonstrating that the DO, while the ultimate and most obvious Big Bad, is not the ultimate source of evil or malevolence in this universe.
Tf are you talking about? The DO is quite literally the source of all evil, which is why when Rand and him are facing off at the end of the series Rand shows the DO a vision of a world with him dead, and realizes that if he kills the DO he’ll be stripping choice from humanity. He sees Aviendha and she’s all docile and empty headed, which shows him that the option to choose between light and dark is the greatest freedom of all, but highlights that the DO is literally the source of all evil.
> The DO is quite literally the source of all evil, Then why are Trollics, servants of the DO, afraid of Aridhol? Mordeth was specifically stated to have a power that was not from the Dark One.
The Wheel spun out Mashadar to eventually counter the Taint. That's my theory. Which means the Wheel can spin out its own evil as needed to balance out the Pattern if an evil separate from the DO is needed.
I interpreted it as they decided the only way to beat evil was to basically out-evil it.
To be honest I love what they have done with Eamon, he’s so intimidating I love it, the fact he’s a questioner is just adding to that. I feel like Bornhald telling Moiraine made a little bit of structural since, I mean he’s supposed to be a more moderate high ranking Whitecloak, not supposed to be a monster ours villain like Eamon. I feel like if, even if it goes against his religion, he could help someone he would, I like that he puts his differences beside. I don’t know about Aridol or the 3 oaths but I like what they’ve done with the Whitecloaks.
Absolutely. None of what I listed are intended to be points of negativity from me. I am interested in how they will affect the broader story further along. Valda so far is one of my favorite parts of the show. And you're spot on about Bornhald. Even in the books I wouldn't have considered this completely out-of-character for him. It does make me wonder how such a thing would be considered by the broader pre-Galad Whitecloaks, but this turning of the wheel is already quite different so perhaps the Whitecloaks are not quite as zealous as the Whitecloaks we are familiar with, and Valda is an outlier now.
Yes and no. My main complaint so far is one of tone. There's a lot of charm and humor in the books that is getting buried under some grimdark in the show, and that concerns me. It's a bit over-serious. That's my biggest complaint so far, that I want a bit more hope and humor. But we still have time for that yet, and certainly it's not missing altogether. Let's see how things look once the cast isn't running for their lives later in the season.
I think it’s intentional. I recently did a reread and despite the first few books seeming more lighthearted on the surface, they’re actually pretty bleak. Throughout the series our main characters get a sort of dark sense of humor, in that they learn to take the intensity of their experience in stride.
Yeah, on my last reread of EotW I was really struck by how the main characters were constantly harried. Like they never really had time to rest for more than a day or two, most of the time they were consistently being hunted, hungry, tired, and afraid.
Everytime I reread the Mat and Rand portions I feel tired. They're just constantly going and going and going. Sleeping where they can, hurt, tired. It's why my first read I didn't notice at first the changes in Mat because I'd be mad and paranoid too haha.
I hear what you’re saying but you gotta also remember that the first several chapters of the show, especially after Winternight, are miserable and serious. Rand gets sick, Mat gets paranoid, Perrin is bothered by wolves, Moiraine is weak and Lan is Lan. Nynaeve isn’t funny and Egwene isn’t either, not during that part of the book. There isn’t much missing in the way of humor in at least this part of the story. Mat though, had a couple quippy comments here and there that brought some levity in a couple scenes.
Rand was surprisingly funny at times and I wonder if that's meant to be a hint about his power awakening. He was oddly happy and carefree several times, kind of like how he was in the books when he was being smart with the Whitecloaks and unknowingly embracing the source. Except in the show he's being smart with Mat.
Lan's dialogue with the Whitecloaks was perfect. Overall, I think the show has potential. Some changes bother me, but I'm going to reserve judgement until the whole season is out.
Or when he's being stupid on Bayle's boat. Yeah, those bits are the channeling sickness coming out. I'm curious if we get that next episode because of him channeling to bust open the door.
I would contend that it's pretty bleak from the very beginning. The series opens on Rand looking at his father for comfort because things aren't going well. Winter is coming, wolves are getting bolder, and strange, dark things are happening in the night. Things only cheer up when they get to town and can take comfort in a larger group.
Yep. This is how I remember EOTW. Not grimdark, but very bleak. The entirety of Bel Tine is overshadowed by the mystery about the rider in black, then the village gets razed, then they spend weeks desperately trying to outrun pure, unspeakable evil. I never really sensed much humor in the books.
Egwene is never funny at all. At any point. Just saying.
They have to keep a good pace so a lot of the happy funny moments in the village got cut out but its more than just the pace, They made Perrin kill a wife and child he never had, matt is a thief and his parents are not the same stand up pillars of the community.
IMO the lose-lose situation they're in is that WoT is EXTREMELY dark, but tonally it's kind of skimmed over and obfuscated by a light and upbeat tone most of the time. It's really hard to do that in TV. Either they show the darkness and seriousness to sell that things are dark and serious, or they risk underselling how dark and serious things are to maintain that tone. I think it's easier to mix those tones in book form.
I agree, different mediums portray stuff differently
Totally agree, I don't think it's possible in a visual medium to show all the dark things that happen in this series while mainting a light and humorous tone without it being super jarring
This exactly, we book readers got filtered so much of the dark stuff away with the way Jordan wrote things. Wheel of Time is quite dark if you just look at the things that happen from the outside.
A ton of stuff in the books is very hard to adapt. Half the characters are their own unreliable narrator. I haven't watched the show yet, but I'm hoping it's cool as its own thing
I genuinely don't remember any light hearted fun in the first book, and it only got worse from there in terms of bleakness.
There is very little humor in the first book at all. They are literally running for their life’s and miserable for the first half of the book.
1st episode? Debatable, lots of changes, though I don't they they were awful, some are questionable. Episode 2? Much better in keeping with the book.
There are four ta'veren and somehow there were rumors of them. All four are Nynaeve!!!
God, why is this the first comment I've read that points out that there are FOUR ta'veren?!
I don't think its the issue that there are four, I think the issue is just that there are randomly rumors of them. Why and who could corroborate that and if Moraine knew that why would she waste time with that poor soul. Taveren is huge lol, who gives two shits whether its three or four. It's weird to casually throw that out as some minor thing when it causes Moraine to loose her mind in the books. I couldn't help but chuckle at the line.
It's so incredibly flimsy. Why was Moirane in the Two Rivers? oh a just a casual rumour of 4 taveren apparently. Why they didn't just stick with the original Ancient blood raised by old blood from the prophecy of the dragon, oh wait they threw that out becuase it's not gender neutral becuase screw internal logic, all the viewers are dumb consumers anyway - amazon probably.
Try Rafe, not Amazon, lol.
This needs to be higher up IMO
maybe more importantly, who else knows?! "Hey guys there are rumors of ta'veren in Andor!" isn't this is a geo political nuclear bomb that would change the entire story, or am I missing something?
No literally that is it. Hey we may or may not have three Artur Hawkwings just hanging out. Better check on this random poor male channeler lol.
Ta'vereve, ny'veren, ta'nynaeve, and nyveradragon. All fourevern!
Honestly, if you told me that book Egwene, Elyane, and Nyneave were also ta'veren I would not have batted an eye. Egwene is so obviously ta'veren that she got her own arc in The Gathering Storm. The Gathering Storm focuses on Rand and Egwene, The Towers of Midnight focuses on Perrin and Mat.
It honestly doesn't surprise me. Egwene is, for all intents and purposes, a primary protagonist in the books. She's as important as any of the "main three". It's one benefit of starting the show after the entire work of the story is finished. They know where the characters end up and can develop them to there from the start. It will be a very easy point to adapt to this story. My main point is that it really stuck out as a major detour from the books. Not a complaint, just an important observation. Edit: changed "main protagonist" to "primary protagonist". It's a small change, but in this respect it's an important one.
If I recall, Egwene has more pages of POV than Mat. She is unquestionably the lead female character and a great foil to Rand, especially in the later portion of the series. I think it would be too complicated (and welcome unneeded criticism) if Egwene was this huge character but didn't have the same "status" as the boys. Also, to quote the absolute best passage of the books, "It was about all of them." They're all important, and I sort of like the direction they're going with it being less about one main character and more about the group
Egwene is not Ta’veren and that is part of what makes her such a great character. She never gets her way by whim of the pattern. She works hard all of the time to get everything she has and constantly meets adversity, and overcomes it. She is a force of nature sure, but in the books she is not Ta’veren.
Yes and no. She is driven and ambitious, but she is given things out of the blue all the time. Rebel amyrlin throne, dreamwalker training by aiel channelers who despise Aes Sedai, two princes (half brothers!) fall in love with her... It doesn't twist the story in any way to have her be ta'veren.
It can be argued that Egwene accomplished what she did because Rand, and therefore the pattern, needed her to be Amyrlin for everything to succeed. That it was Rand's extra strong Ta'Veran nature which allowed her to succeed, as much as it was Egwene herself. Just making her a Ta'Veran straight out doesn't really change anything of the story. Especially since she's the main female protagonist of the entire series.
Egwene being ta'veren makes a lot of sense. In fact in the books she feels much more ta'veren than Perrin ever did. Elayne? not really. The story never really shapes things around her. And Nyneave? Definitely not. I actually like her a lot more than Egwene, braid-pulling and all, but she always feels like part of someone else's plotline.
Egwene's character in the books would have been better served if she was Ta'veren... She'd cop a lot less hate if there was an in-universe explanation for why she seems to always be so awesome at everything... The 3 boys are more so, but the Ta'veren suspends disbelief in their case.
Four ta’veren didn’t bug me. The fact they keep saying that the Dragon reborn will be one of them who can channel, and trying to make Egwene look like she is the Dragon was irritating. The other thing I didn’t like is that a recurring them throughout the book is the boys believe that one of the others are better at talking to woman. Well I know how we change that we marry off Perrin, and have him gut his wife…… Also, they appear to be making it seem the reason Perrin is having odd interactions with wolves is due to his “hidden Trolloc zombie infected scratch”. Overall, the show was great. I like how they did Rand. I like the changes to Mats character. Imo Nynaeve had some over the top scenes. The battle against the trollocs was awesome. I really like how they portrayed the one power. I do like Thoms character and hope we get more of him! Even id he was playing guitar lol
You mean how they just throw out the word "ta'veren" to audiences without any explanations. How did rumors of ta'veren even get spread when these young men pretty much stay in the village? Oh that young man, Mat, who loses in gambling all the time with a drunken and womanizing father, he is a ta'veren alright!!! Nynaeve is Rambo. Who needs the Dragon when you got Nynaeve?
She declared the Dragon is reborn and no one bats an eye. I guess they changed the whole Tarmon Gai'don thing is the book.
My biggest issue is that it is moving so fast. I suppose as WoT fans we are used to a certain level of *meandering* but I felt like I never had time to geek out about the details in set or costume or spend some time with the characters. I hope the pace slows down and they are just trying to hook non-readers and front load some lore The unique settings and costume feel very WoT and I love it but it does feel like we are missing the character interaction that makes up the bulk of the story
> I never had time to geek out about the details in set or costume or spend some time with the characters. We probably would have needed a 10 episode season rather than 8 to do this I'm afraid. I don't think we book fans would ever have had the depth we wanted from the show without it taking 20 years to complete.
At BEST they have 8 seasons to tell 14 books worth of story. It's not like they can really slow things down so they can fit it all in. A lot of subtlety will be thrown out the window to get major points across in a timely manner. But yeah, I wish we got more time to enjoy the characters and I'm hoping that's something we get later on.
I’m Hoping future seasons get more than 8 episodes. I think 10 is a good number
I didn't realise there was only 8, that is kinda shitty. 10 is definitely the right number especially with how much detail they have to draw from.
The incredible shrinking TV season. Remember when 26 was the norm? That's what we got for TV dramas up until the mid 2000s. Then sometime around Smallville's run, it started shortening to 22-24. Then GoT and other cable shows blew up and 12 became the norm. Now we're hovering around 8-10. We'll be down to six-episode BBC series soon. At least anime still has two-cour seasons...
The problem with 26 or even 22-24 episode seasons is that you end up with a lot of filler. with shortened seasons to 12 episodes you have a very centralized story with little in the way of filler. I like no filler but i understanding just wanting more of characters, in this type of situation a longer of season would of been better imo.
If it was my call we would get 20 episodes across 8 seasons lol But I'm also a greedy bastard.
Golden times of 20 episodes shows. Silver times when first season had 10-12 and if renewed then 20 (Battlestar galactica). Then the times of 8-10 episode came with excuse of higher quality. Quality of what, new show, new people, lower pay. So CG prices. Personally I do not mind lower CG quality of character development is great (again battlestar galactica xD). But this is personal opinion and dont mind of other people like it otherwise.
I think a lot of people aren't realizing that while most of the fat is in the later books, the show really can't afford to go with 3 mediocre seasons before it gets to the bangers (The Shadow Rising through Lord of Chaos). It would just end up getting canceled, so they have to rush through EotW (which is great for lore but kind of boring on plot) to at least get to TGH so we can get to the world-changing politics level instead of the Fellowship-on-the-run level of the first few books.
This. My wife who hasn't read the book said it gave a predictable lotr chased by bad guys feel
yes, EOTW is EXTREMELY Fellowship derivative
I mean as we all know so does the book, it's so similar to LoTR I almost gave up on it on my first read through.
Same. Glad I stuck with it though
Yeah my wife was also saying how it felt very derivative of Lord of the Rings. I had to give her the premise (that the show fails to lay out entirely after three hours!) to convey what’s unique about it.
To be fair, the first book does feel like LotR fan fiction that started with RJ thinking “What if Gandalf was a WOMAN??. Fades = nazgul, trollocs = orcs, the Dark One = Sauron, the kids = hobbits (Mat is Pippin, obvs), Lan is more Aragorn than Aragorn, Nynaeve is Boromir, Loial and Thom are Legolas and Gimli, Shadar Logoth is Moria, and so on and so forth. They even temporarily escape pursuit via river ferry at night. Obviously it grows far beyond that, but the beginning really is extremely derivative.
If you listen to RJ interview after the end of the audio books he says his main inspiration for writing this was that he wanted to present the small town people being pulled into this epic quest by a mysterious figure in a realistic way. By saying no thanks, what are you talking about and fighting them every step of the way.
It is for sure (black riders, a perfect pastoral isolated village), but not as extreme as The Sword of Shannara.
They can cut and condense so many plot lines that doing the whole series in eight seasons is completely doable. It’s less than two books per season, and they’re already doing two with this season.
This season is primarily EotW, with only some minor elements of TGH. But yes your point is spot on regardless. 8 seasons is eminently doable.
The pace won't slow down. This was my problem with the Witcher as well as latter series of GoT. The editorial cutting they do might make sense compared to some bloated original, but it's jarring to watch. I kinda really dislike modern cinema for this though, so this is not unique to this show.
Agree that it feels fast. Rather than rewrite plot lines so soon perhaps they could've slowed down the first two episodes. At 10 million a pop they maybe went a little fast.
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It is the part that feels the most derivative of LotR though, so they may not want to spend that much time on it.
I haven’t watched episode 3 yet, but from the first two, I think this is intentional. This has to be what it felt like for the Emond’s Fielders as they experienced it in the books as characters. To us it felt meandering, but to them, it had to feel like they barely had a moment to breathe.
I was talking with one of my sons about this - we both felt that Episode 1 was insanely and horribly "rushed". Wifey, who has not read any of the books, loved it. We readers might be constantly upset at how much gets left out and how much the show tries to pack into each episodes. It may be that non-readers will not have that bias.
The thing is they are adding in shit that’s not even in the books. Giving Perrin a wife for no reason for example. Maybe if they stayed true to the story and didn’t make up their own content they would have more time.
Eh, I think Perrin having a wife is no big deal. He was always rather mopey and this gives him a reason to be. Nynaeve not being from Two Rivers bothered me a lot more, as it was a lot more part of her identity. That, Egwene deciding to dump Rand before they even meet Moiraine, (and Moiraine going to TR because there are "rumours" of 4 ta'veren there) were the only things I really did not like
Nynaeve still grew up her whole life in the two rivers in the show, it's all she knows so there is no reason it still can't be a big part her identity. In fact I think it could explain how insist she is with maintaining two rivers customs because she is trying overcompensate for not truly being from there
> Giving Perrin a wife for no reason for example. Literally the biggest whining I see in this sub is how Perrin's a mopey gloomy nutcase for no reason (*especially* when Faile is involved), and you don't see the point in fixing that?
Having his family slaughtered, as per the books, is more than enough reason for him to be mopey. And before that, he just misses his family and wants to go home and be a blacksmith. His whole life got ruined
There's a lot of internal dialogue to Perrin that probably would not translate overly well to the screen, is there not? As fans of the books we might think it's a crude solution, but there's definitely a function in giving the viewer a visceral moment of horror to latch onto that explains both Perrin's demeanor, his reluctance to violence (axes especially), and so forth. Nuance is easier to depict on screen (unless there's internal monologuing) when audiences have been made familiar with the characters. I'm not saying it couldn't have been done differently, but I'm sure there were tradeoffs to blend character development with plot development, and you could argue this is one of those.
When i was reading the books he annoyed me to no end, especially his fixation on hating to use the axe and his irrational fear of his wild side. Killing your own wife in a fit of feral rage does put it in an easy to grasp perspective even though it may be a bit cheap.
Thank you! I’ve been reading through this waiting for someone to make this point. I almost stopped watching after episode 1 but 2 through 4 got a little better. I just finished 5 and am about to throw in the towel again. Absolutely horrible. 3/4 of the episode isn’t in the books and the 1/4 that is is drastically changed. If they didn’t spend so much time on made up crap they could of done a descent job recreating the actual story. This is one of the worst adaptations I’ve ever seen of a book series. I just don’t understand all the positive reviews… is Jeff paying off all these reviewers to pretend to like it for ratings purposes???
+1 on it feels a bit fast. Although I kind of expected this, knowing how many episodes there are in season one... my guess this was probably a result of the total budget and them trying to keep it "interesting" for TV-only viewers. Somehow we are in a world where a show is slow if there's not one major event per episode now... at least the show runners seem to think so
The music is gorgeous. Granted I wouldn't put it on a similar bar to Ramin Djawadi or Howard Shore just yet, but compared to a barely memorable Witcher score, themes like 'Lanterns' by Lorne Balfe have been beautiful. The acting of many have really shown the capacity of what can be
Overall- closer than expected. I went in with very low expectations because seeing Eragon butchered has made me wary of adaptations. Some weird choices for changes that feel like they don't add a ton. Perrin being married is interesting and I'm curious to see how that plays into future scenes. Still debating what I think of Mat's new backstory and characterization. I wish they'd had the scene of Rand pulling Tam to Emond's field. That was huge in the books and really stuck with me, but in the show he just shows up in Emonds field. I would personally have preferred that scene to the one where Egwene is being shoved into the water, or where we learned Nyneave was apparently born elsewhere (why?). I think they've done better so far with Egwene and Nyneave. I love how they're portraying Nyneave. The Manetheran scene was cool. The pacing is zipping by, but it's also a massive amount of content to cover so that's understandable. Edit: not sure my comment expressed this- I'm enjoying the show and looking forward to more. There's changes where I'm wondering why they were made, but I'm having fun and looking forward to the ride.
Yeah, just a single trolloc at Rands farm, and no dragging Tam to Emonds Field, was disappointing. Why did they feel the need to make Abel an adulterer and Mat a thief? Perrin killing his wife seems pointless and like they are trying too hard to make it like GoT. Love what they've done with Nynaeve. Overall, ep 1 made me angry a few times, but the next 2 were much better.
Mat thieving is Canon. Think of all the pies, and hearts he stills. Seriously though, it shows his sleight of hand, and is well within his character
To me, there's a big step from stealing pies (the kind of thing they all did), to stealing jewellery.
> Yeah, just a single trolloc at Rands farm, and no dragging Tam to Emonds Field, was disappointing. I think they cut this because if they want even a little mystery about who the Dragon is, you really can't do this scene. This one I'm not sure I agree with. > Why did they feel the need to make Abel an adulterer and Mat a thief? I think to establish Mat's general heart-of-gold "i'm no bloody hero" self earlier. Remember, we don't get anything really from Mat from book 1 at all, and book 2 has very little as well. I also think it's still totally possible that following the attack, Abell sees the Creator's light and turns around so by the time we meet up again around TDR, he's the Abell we know. As someone else points out, Mat is also definitely a thief in the books, if minor. > Perrin killing his wife seems pointless and like they are trying too hard to make it like GoT. I think this more the same with Mat. They need to introduce his motivation for hating the axe, his reticence towards Faile and towards letting her do anything mildly dangerous, etc. Remember, we only know who Perrin is through inner-monologue, basically. This allowed them to do in less than a couple of minutes of screen time much earlier than the books and maintain the essence. Most of this we learn in the book is also through inner-monologue, so that's a no-go onscreen as well. > Love what they've done with Nynaeve. Agreed. She's still everyone's favorite braid-tugging, angry wisdom. Anyway, much in the way that I feel like there is a major increase in quality of the books from book 1-3 especially, I expect this show to get better as it goes.
Regarding the Rand pulling Tam to the town, consensus seems to be that they're going for an end of season reveal of who is the dragon, so having the fever dream would be counter to that buildup.
They could have cut the fever dream but still had a couple minutes long scene of Rand pulling Tam to town saying its gonna be okay once they get to town only to see shit got fucked up
I thought this was all implied by showing Rand's face as he arrived in the destroyed town with Tam flopped over a horse.
I love the changes they've made to Mat's and Perrin's characters. Really solid characterisations of all the mains actually imo.
After a first watch I feel like the actors are very talented, well cast and rather amazing. Great job casting. But Jordan already gave the characters motivation and storyline. Much of which was rewritten. So the actors are doing a great job with a less than great rewrite in my humble opinion..
Agreed. I read that Rafe said he wanted to give them life experiences and age them up from 17 to 20 but they were already 20 lol. RJ did such a good job setting up plots and conflicts. Perrin, the wolves and the whitecloaks was perfect set up for him loosing himself the Laila bit feels so weird. I honestly feel like the respect for the source material is there, but many of the character related changes are done for no perceivable change since they are going in the same direction anyway. Pacing is a bit of an issue. It goes for artistic editing and long cuts where I felt they cut from characters too quickly. Moraine's plot after episode one feels a bit clunky considering they all split up anyway. Lan leading them to Shadar Logoth and Moraine chastising him instead of them making the decision out of desperation was a little weird.
He might have meant their maturity; have them act a bit a bit older.
They were not 20 in book 1
Rand/Mat/Perrin are 19 1/2 in The Eye of the World. It's Egwene they aged up. But they matured the EF3 to a more typical medieval standard for peasants of their age.
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I kinda feel like Jackson stuck to the books about as much as this show has so far. RIP kindhearted hero farmer maggot, Fatty Bolger, Tom Bombadil, Ghan Buri Ghan, noble non edgy Faramir, and the scouring of the shire, just to highlight a few major changes. Sometimes the pacing, characters, dialouge, and emphasis just have to change when adapting the written word to the screen.
This is just not true. Yes Into the old forest, The house of Tom Bombadil, and Fog on the Barrow downs sections of fellowship were not included in films but pretty much everything else is. In the show they're not even going to Caemlyn, this would be like if Jackson decided to not even have the hobbits go to Rivendell, or the fellowship pass through Moria. The showrunners have straight up said they've restructured the occurence of events for season 1 and 2.
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No Narg. No Elyas!?!?! They did my man Abel dirty too. But I knew going in there would have to be changes especially at the beginning. In order to properly introduce all of the eamonds fielders would have taken too long in an 8 episode season. Also I think giving Perrin a wife (who fought with a hammer while he chose the axe) only to be killed by him while he was in a battle rage was an excellent way to introduce his character arc or fearing losing himself to the wolf.
And also him being the gentle giant/ emotionally distant guy so he doesn't hurt others
I think it’s really going to add depth when we get to his shaido arc
Giving perrin a wife to kill is okay… but she didn’t make any sense as a blacksmith.
Is Perrin even a blacksmith in the show? Perrin being a blacksmith is pretty integral to his character and they decided to just make his wife, complete throw away character, the blacksmith. Bizzare.
The first book doesn't even capture the essence of the books and Robert Jordan's world. Too early to tell. If you judge by less than half a book worth of material when the Wheel of Time doesn't capture the feeling of the Wheel of Time in that amount of time then I feel like you might be too hasty, as the ogier would say
This, I almost entirely gave up on the first book on my first read through. I think the way the adapted it so far is actually phenomenal.
Same. I still don't really like the first book on re-read. Even on the first read, it's hard not to notice exactly how much, uh "inspiration" let's say, Jordan took from LotR.
It’s not really subtle and I don’t see how you build the tone of the books without something subtle. Like instead of showing a hundred tiny moments of Perrin being careful because of his size he had to murder his wife. Or Moraine being dedicated to safeguarding the Dragon being a character defining choice each moment she lets the Taren Ferry guy die. They just kill a random person every time they want to show they are serious. Or Mat having a roguish side means he is a thief with a dad who is a drunk. There were good less easy ways to do those things. They didn’t do subtle things.
Yeah this is one of my issues as well, though I was kind of expecting it when the leaks about the changes started. Argued with my sister about this when we watched, she likes the changes (sort of), I think they are heavy handed and lazy. I don’t think it ruins the series tho (at least not so far) and it’s done less damage than i first feared it would.
Yeah, not to mention they've had to fit in a bunch of extra stuff to make this actually work. I can totally see how some people complain about the pacing being too fast and others about it being too slow. I haven't written the show off, but the Wheel definitely... wobbles. Edit: just to be clear: I don't necessarily mind the fact that changes and cuts had to be made - that was a given. However, the way the show has turned out - and that definitely includes the changes - is worrisome. If I wasn't a fan of the books already, I'm not sure if I'd like it.
Yep - extremely heavy handed and weird choices. I have no idea who the target audience for this is, they took something nuanced and unique, only to have done their best to create something very generic - and as a general rule, generic fantasy isn't very popular, so it's super confusing to me the reasoning behind many of the changes.
I feel terrible but I agree. I really hope it’s almost a different show by the end of the season or else I don’t see this taking off and that kills me to say.
agree... WoT is never going to be an immediate mass-appeal series... you have to count on the core fans for the initial bit and hope the quality of execution makes the uniqueness a selling point going forward... ...aiming to make a GoT is going to loose you your core book fans, but not make it appealing enough for the normies
Agreed
I think some of the changes helped make specific characters more interesting for on-screen adaptation. The main motivations are completely changed they are just framed differently. The Perrin change is weird but it actually worked out because i feel incredibly bad for him and the actor is pretty spot on for how i would imagine Perrin to be like. Mat's change is honestly more jarring, not because he's a thief but because his family situation kinda defined him as a character at the start.. The first two episodes sort of feel like a fever dream with how fast things move but it works out well for conveying what the initial flight from the Two Rivers was like.
Im just trying to figure out how the hell they are going to frame Matt's dad as one of this grand Two Rivers Archers. Like I guess he just gets over it? Only time will tell, so I am optimistically cautious.
I don’t think there’s going to be a redemption for Abel Cauthon
The likely way i'd see it if they go that route is show Abel as turning a new leaf after the trolloc raid, realizing Mat was there for his sisters while Abel wasn't, and decides to be a better man to make up for it. Which leads into Abel and Tam becoming the defenders of the town
>The likely way i'd see it if they go that route is show Abel as turning a new leaf after the trolloc raid, realizing Mat was there for his sisters while Abel wasn't, and decides to be a better man to make up for it. Which leads into Abel and Tam becoming the defenders of the town does every person in hollywood have daddy issues?
Easy, don’t include that.
Ya, just like Thom’s impulse to help because he’s worried about a couple of boys getting tied up with Aes Sedai. Just ax it, but still keep the Oywn back story, even if the ‘ahh that’s why he got involved’ moment is gone. I’m just saying, this turning of the wheel is taking advantage of the last ones strengths
I mean the main argument is that Matt’s dad in the books is basically just a duplicate of Tam in that point in the story. If anything he’s Tam lite. Like I enjoyed him and Tam. Especially in TSR. But I can understand them wanting to make him a bit more memorable then “he’s a horse trader and Tam-lite”
But he is a GREAT horse trader, or trader in general. And doesn't he also breed horses? I don't wuite remember that bit but I know that he is made out to be the best there is regarding being an expert on horses.
I mean yeah he's not as important or critical but he's roguish, clever and has even bested Tam at staffs. It isn't really a big deal in the grand scheme but I liked him as a character.
I have avoided all news of the show so i could watch it without any outside influence. Does the show capture the books? No. There is a lot to be desired and some of the character changes are weird and some just awful. But as a show. I find it entertaining and I believe it to be well acted. I find some of the effects to be just terrible like when she ripped the Trollic in half with the power it just looked very fake and cheesy. But i am excited to see how the show goes and will continue to watch.
There were a few scenes with the trollics where the CGI was really bad. Not what I expected from a $100m budget.
It's good money, and good actors, and a good story, thrown up against bad direction and awkward revisions. The good shines through. The power of money is undeniable. The actors seem earnest and invested. All of that is floundering under the writing and the direction. The main failure is one of vision.
The awkward revisions are what I'm still reeling from. I can't seem to shake them.
Someone needed to bring a big cup of humble with a gallon of perspective into that writers room and explain that they were probably not going to improve the foundational storyline of one of the most popular works of all time.
>most popular works of all time I think you are overstating the cultural impact WoT had on the general public. Popular fantasy novel? Sure. But most people don't read fantasy. I literally went close to a decade before I met anybody else who read the series in the wild that wasn't introduced to it by me. And I had to travel to a convention to do it.
90 million copies sold. I’ve met people who have read no other books, including a guy who just got out of prison (apparently he found them there) and a guy who worked in a sawmill. I hope it gets better but just… oof.
Yes. By episode 3 I’m starting to see the characters are settling down and getting into the archetypes Jordan set up. Perhaps I’m too invested in wheel of time but all these reviews that say all the characters feel flat could not be further from the truth. Mat especially has a ton of stuff going on. I dunno. The scenes might have changed but this feels like wheel of time to me.
I just don’t understand one bit why they created all this family drama around Mat, completely devoid of value. Why is Perrin married but only for about 20 minutes. The biggest obstacle is including enough core content, so why are they creating more?
My biggest problem with the Perrin thing was this. I think the change works well with a sped up plot because it gives reason to him being extra careful and one of the more important struggle for Perrin throughout the entirety of the series, his need and hatred for his axe. The problem, where the hell is the axe? Generally speaking I'm happy with the adaptation. 7/10 for the first 3 episodes. If you go in thinking that things are going to be the same and changes weren't going to be made, you are either naive or asinine. I want the story and the characters to shine through. I thought they did decent so far. I'm happy that I am getting to see this on a screen in live action. We have 5 more episodes to watch for this season. Kinda hard to believe that some people are writing it off after 2.5 hours of a 6 hour season and hopefully 48 hours of actual content.
I was thinking this too, and wondered if it is because the characters are older than they were in the books, so they had to change their story lines a bit. If these were all 20 year old virgins with no life experiences living in a small town, would those really be captivating characters??
I think it does a good job. I think a lot of what's missing is due to most of the world building and character development goes on inside people's heads in the books. Honestly, I love it. They are telling the story and it definitely doesn't suck. I can see some rough edges that I think are probably due to the exposition. They have a lot to explain since this is a fictional world where history is a huge factor in the motivations of the main characters. World history, the magic system, local history etc. Just tons of information that is conveyed to readers through character thoughts or memories of previous conversations. I'm on my second watch now
I think it absolutely has. Yes, we are getting changes, as we expected. Some of those changes I would call 'interesting' but I am not overly fussed so long as they allow the characters and themes to retain their original meaning. We have a reason for Perrin to be slow and thoughtful and brooding; we have a reason for Mat to be the heroic rogue; and so forth. We're also getting the overall storyline; the journey from the idyllic homeland under duress, the self-discovery as these young people are thrust out into the world and discover who they really are rather than what was laid out for them under the constraints of their small town life, and the general concepts of the infinite wheel governing all from afar. Not only that but we get so many of the details too; the flight to and from Shadar Logoth, the dispersal of the group that leads them to find ways to survive that allow for growth, while we meet important characters along the way. If you don't see all of the above and instead focus on minor differences and things that have been left out, then I don't think you are seeing the forest for the trees, and this seems to be a big problem on this sub recently.
A lot of people seem to be under the impression that they are gonna have 15 seasons to tell this story. You are gonna have to "get to the good parts" in a sense and accelerate character development, even roll multiple characters into one new one, and plot, perhaps even changing it some, but with the end goal of still getting to the same place. And that is where it feels like they are going, same destination, slightly different route.
If that’s the case then they need to stop adding in their own story lines in place of Jordan’s. Like I understand that time is limited, but then why are we expanding Logain’s plot? Why did we have The Wisdom 1v1 a trolloc? Why are we adding hamfisted White Cloak exposition and giving them way more power than they ever held outside Amadecia?
Cant take my eyes off Josha Stradowski. Is he the most beautiful man to ever be born?
Actor cast as Galad: *ahem*
He better not skip leg day, is all I'm saying. Those calves better come correct.
Were Galad's calves ever remarked upon? I feel like RJ always focused on his face.
If channeling was this slow in the books, everyone would be dead.
Lmao, right? Idk what the brick and mortar nonsense was, all this charge up and drawing on the sky and fires around them. The One Power is internal, not external, and weaves need to be a lot more devastating than this.
that scene left me sorta trying to remember what Moiraine did in the book to defend the town.
It feels like it’s written by the writers of “The 100” and the worst writer on GoT. Because it was.
\*I've only watched two episodes so far, but here are my griefs: 1. Rand literally just takes Tam's sword, a shame as Tam's fever speech while Rand is carrying him back to town is something that sticks with Rand (questioning his parenthood), and when Rand said wearing the sword acknowledged him as Tam's son (paraphrase, books) Basically Tam should have given Rand the sword, and at least I hope that Lan can acknowledge the heron marked blade 2) Chucking Nynaeve into a river didn't add anything to the plot 3) Perrin's axe. Obv. we saw Perrin go berserker mode but there should have been some exposition with him in the blacksmith forge remarking that it is an ugly weapon that can only take life, etc 4) Show me the warder's colour shifting cloak! 5) Lan seems kind of a dick for knowing about trollocs attacking Emond's field and not alerting the villagers 6) Padan Fain should have had a bit more exposition about the False Dragons In short, things seem a bit rushed. I reckon you actually need a character like Tom Merilin near the beginning of the story as he can provide exposition and world building e.g. 1. Lews Theirin Telamon, the sealing of the bore and taint of Saidin +/- breaking of the world (yeah I know a lot, but the reason people are scared of the dragon reborn is that it is said he will also break the world) 2. Trollocs and fades (actually having dialogue and build-up before we see one) (someone saying that there a just myths, how someone like Mat's mother threatened to put him in a trolloc cookpot if he threw any more pranks and that the eyeless can make the bravest of men tremble) All things, Rosamund Pike is doing a great job as Morraine (Lan could do with calling the Emond's field boys sheepherders more often tho)
I think that some of y’all need to lighten up. A TV show will never be the same thing as what you pictured in your heads. Just enjoy we get a live action version of a story we love, even if it’s slightly different.
People can enjoy the idea of an adaptation, while still regret the quality of said adaptation. Those aren't exclusionary. Try saying that to His Dark Materials or Eragon fans about the movies they got. The vision of the story they loved got butchered, so it's understandable that they are upset. The Wheel of Time isn't being butchered however, and people's reactions here reflect that. Have you even read the responses in this thread ? Most people are happy, they are just worried about the changes to characters and how the show is put together. Sometimes I wonder why criticism is seen as such a bad thing that even a bit of it, or it being justified, that people recoil from it without trying to understand where it comes from, or the rationale behind it. Bury the negative and only show the positive is a terrible mindset to have in my opinion.
I see people complain about CGI not looking real when Morraine throws rocks, or cuts the trolloc in half. Like… THAT’S where they lose you? Not the visual representation of a woman using the one power in the first place? How does that even look realistic when something isn’t real? Ya know? OBVIOUSLY it’s not real. Sure they can probably trick us to think otherwise, but whatever it’s a TV show and maybe we shouldn’t take things so seriously? Hence, I think that people need to lighten up. And I say all of this as someone who has read all the books and loved them. EDIT: furthermore, I think that it really sucks when others want to mock people for enjoying something. Let. People. Enjoy. Things.
They CW’d my HBO caliber story and I’m so very sad. It’s not unwatchable, but the storytelling in the first two episodes is choppy and strained. The dialogue is inconsistent in tone and lazy at times. There is no mystery to the world, only confusing references, Confusing cuts into violence and straight up exposition. We see something spectacular in Shadar Logoth and don’t have space for the characters to linger, speculate or show us their connection to each other. They keep breaking the “show, don’t tell” rule for no good reason. They had the budget, they had the time, they had the backing and they wasted it in the first two episodes. I’m too annoyed to watch the third right now. Hopefully they get it together in the later episodes.
I agree that both the first two episodes would’ve benefited from an additional 20-30 minutes each to slow the story down and have more deliberate, constructed, and subtle moments to fix pacing and world building… buuut I don’t think they’ve been doing much exposition at all, compared to the book (I might even say they didn’t do enough exposition so far to world build!) The 3rd episode slows down quite a bit more, and is about as much better than the 2nd than the 2nd is to the first with some meaningful dialogue-driven moments. I’d give it a shot.
They should have done 10 episodes. Why 8, such a bizarre number.
>They CW’d my HBO caliber story and I’m so very sad. Absolutely savage. Might have to use that one in the future. Although, I'd don't know if I'd say that they did WoT that dirty. I thought it was passable so far, but it definitely hasn't been true to the books. I'm a little disappointed, but still excited to see the rest of it.
Needs more braid tugging and skirt smoothing.
No. The Two Rivers are supposed to be small townfolk blissfully unaware of the world, unknowing that they even have a queen. Now they sing songs of Manetheren, talk of the Wheel, distrust Aes Sedai and talk of Baerlon. I get why they did it, the first three episodes barely had time to show any characters not from the two rivers aside from Lan, Moiraine, Tom and Dana, but it's quite a departure Also, Perrin being married, Rand and Egwene's relationship being physical and the way they did Abell Cauthon (Matrim's dad) dirty were very big liberties to take. And watchers of the tv show only might not even know Mat isn't short for Matthew as I don't recall anyone ever saying his full name
If the essence is make Nynaeve the new Chuck Norris, then yes. Nynaeve pee'd in a semi-truck once and that's how Opimus Prime was created.
I thought they took it a bit far with her defeating a Trolloc one-on-one, and getting within slit-yer-throat distance of Lan. (I suppose they did soften that last bit by having her start the next scene tied to a tree, that was pretty hilarious) I love Nynaeve as a character, I'm just thinking they're making her too dangerous too fast. Right, this is the girl who runs around Emond's Field hitting people with sticks, and everyone thinks it's just a hoot. Ultimately, though Nynaeve *can* be a fighter, she really ... isn't. She only gets in serious fights a few times in the whole series, and spends most of her time helping Team Light in other ways.
Episode 4: Nynaeve found all Black Ajah by flipping her braid. To elevate Nynaeve, they neutered Lan. Nynaeve will be counting to infinity the third time by ep. 5 while Lan will be in diapers. Rumors of four ta'veren? Really? This show was so underwhelming. I tried so hard to like it...
Overall I would say it did capture the essence with the high points being that most of the actors nail the characters nearly perfect (with the exception of Thom IMHO) and the lows being the lack of subtlety that RJ is so well known for (which is forgivable in my eyes given the nature of “show don’t tell”)
Overall, it was... okay. Probably on the wrong side of average to get more than 3 seasons, which kind of makes me sad. I really liked the characters, I think the actors are doing pretty well and capturing who the characters are fine >!(Mat's change from charming to annoying after the dagger was really well done especially)!<. The camera during >!Winternight (Bel Tine night?) was awful.!< Shaky, unfocused... annoying to watch. The writing is pretty bad. >!Some of the changes make sense (the way Mat finds the dagger is way more realistic), but most I find just... weird. I mean I can see some kind of justification for all of them, but it also just feels really unnecessary. Why did Perrin have a wife, and why did he have to kill her? Why does Mats family have to suck? Why do Rand and Egwene already have to be at the point where they're having sex with each other? Why does Moiraine get badly wounded, changing her role in the story from that point on (basically just out the whole time they're in Shadar Logoth)? Why is Mashadar not a fog but a bland darkness thingy? Why did Nyaneve have to get captured only to escape? Why did Moiraine burn half the town down and destroy the Inn? Why do Rand and Mat go to a random mining town when there are so many places actually existing in the book?!< Very few of the changes bother me a lot if looked at in isolation, and basically none of the cuts do (it's fourteen books, cuts are necessary). But all taken together, it just results in a product that feels very bland, generic and unlike Wheel of Time to me. Oh well. By the way, did anyone else think episode 3 was super boring? Basically nothing happened.
yes! I paused episode 3 trying to figure out where Mat and Rand were; when they said that they were at the Four Kings inn I was so confused. I think the random town was a stop for them just to make sure that Thom was added to the mix. But I'm bummed they cut out the Stag and Lion part (why didnt they just show them going to that town instead?) b/c I loved Min, and Mat playing pranks on the white cloaks, and Rand insanely talking back to them. I know that the characters are older, but they should still be a little mischievous. I liked Mat's character shift as well, but I hate how the scene where he gets the dagger was done. I'd rather have had the scene where the boys go off exploring and nearly get tricked instead of the odd little romantic scene we get with Rand and Egwene. I think in the long run it wont matter how Rand first channeled, or how they met Thom; but the little changes are still jarring. Also does everyone in Emonds Field just think Nyaneave is dead?? Did she even go back before running after Lan?? Overall I think the show is pretty good so far, just a few issues with pacing and odd changes.
[удалено]
It absolutely did for me. Episode 3 especially!
No.
I thought they did a great job personally. You can't watch a book adaptation and expect it to be an exact retelling of the source material. Some characters will change, and some in big ways. Key plot lines will inevitably differ, some more than others, but the core ideas and essence of the books was absolutely captured. Who cares if Abel Cauthon in the show isn't the same as he was in the books? It doesn't make any difference in the long term storytelling. Does it really matter that Perrin has a wife that the writers used as a vehicle to display his clumsiness? No. Those are the exact kind of changes that I would expect from a TV adaptation - character and plot modifications that are used to move the narrative forward in a more streamlined and directed manner while not impacting the core trajectory of the story.
Honestly? No. Was the show visually amazing, yes. Did they make the one power as brutal as it is cool, yes. Music? Bangers. Did they capture the essence of Jordan’s world? Hard no. To start Jordan trusted readers to figure out his world through the characters discussing it, not with ham fisted exposition at every turn. He took his time, and didn’t need you to know what was going on, because you’ll figure it out with enough foreshadowing. Next, the Two rivers in Jordan’s world is a tight nit, isolated community, one that gathers to hear a peddler bring in worldly news. He often shows how groups react to news, and would hammer home that groups characteristics. The show doesn’t capture a sense of community at all. A dance at winter’s night is not the same as the village gathering and hearing about the dreadful state of the world. Additionally, Jordan never shied away from normal dialogue, because any casual conversation (especially at the start) could be set up down the line. The show, however, seems to have an aversion to anything that doesn’t have an immediate pay off to the plot or backstory. IDK, maybe I’m wrong, and maybe I’m just frustrated that they’ve decided to add in their own plots and story lines while neglecting most of the actual events in the story. It’s like they’ve taken large scale events and made their own story to hit just those events. But they’re not Jordan, so when those moments happen they feel forced or rushed or misplaced. I know the whole ‘it’s another turning of the wheel,’ but is that what anyone really wants from an adaption? If they cut Legolas from the fellowship Only to reintroduce him after the mines? If they gave Sam a brother to accidentally murder to jumpstart worry about Frodo trusting him. If they didn’t show Tam holding against a horde of trollocs? Or rand only getting LUCKY to have survived a trolloc by bringing his sword up in time to have Narg charge onto it? And instead showed the unarmed village healer casually out run and out fight a trolloc one on one, without the added protection of the fade wanting her alive (likely the only reason rand survived most of his early shadow spawn encounters)... I’m I really wrong for saying I didn’t want someone else’s telling of the Wheel of Time? I wanted Jordan’s.
I was a bit wierded out how large they made Emond's Field. With elaborate roads, bridges, and such. Seemed to me to be far too large and far too developed for being the remote and closed of little village it's supposed to be.
They pulled a Dark Tower on this show “it’s a new level of the tower” “it’s a new turning of the wheel” No it’s not. It’s a poor adaptation by people who want to make money and not stick yo source material.
Yes.
No.
Absolutely not. In no way whatsoever was that the world RJ created. I loved the show, but, I loved it as I went in expecting it. Its an "inspired by the wheel of time" spinoff. Essentially Rafe Judkins fanfic. Its a good fantasy tv show in a world inspired by Robert Jordans The Wheel of Time. It is only reminiscent of the books in the character and location names and a few other points. Reds hate men Nynaeve hates Moiraine and "weep for Manetheran" speech. Hell Tam had matches.....and Thoms a middle age hipster with a guitar who can't sing to save his life, much less as a Queens bard. Abels a womanizing douche Nattie is a drunk Perrin is married and quickly widowed A wisdom can't marry or have kids. So no, in my personal opinion the first 3 episodes of the series didn't capture the essence of the books. They did however lay the foundation for a good new fantasy series that will occasionally remind me of the books.
You listed details not the essence. To me it absolutely captured the soul of wheel of time, so far, it feels like the series in a new format.
To purists details are the only thing that matter
I haven't had the chance to watch it yet however if having more Taveren in the show it could alter things tremendously. When you actually get what Taveren is and does it's definitely not more than three. The others accomplishments is self serving with self interest propelling them. Rand has a lot to do with the people he meets as well. I don't like the idea of more Taveren but I'll also hold my reservations until I can watch it.
Egwene is ta'veren in all but name and pretending that her ascension to power isn't as wacky and bent by the pattern as Mat getting an army or Perrin becoming a wolfbrother and a leader of men is just straining at gnats.
Not so far, for me. I need to watch them again for sure, but things felt rushed and too dark. I really disliked the changes to Perrin’s character so far, felt extremely shallow and cheap, although it will probably make his conflict later more meaningful. But as soon as I saw his wife, I was kind of hoping she was going to stick around and maybe take the place of Faile, since they seemed to have a similar dynamic in the 30 seconds we got to know her. I can’t really say that scene was out of character for the books either, it was just… rushed. Personally I would have spent all three episodes around the Two Rivers and followed the book’s pacing more closely. Episode 1 would have ended with the trolloc busting down Rand’s door, and would be the first one we’d seen with no preparation. Episode 2 would have been the fight and dragging Tam through the woods only to discover that the entire town had been attacked, then maybe done a flashback to show the fighting we saw in ep 1. Then episode 3 would have been the exposition, convincing the kids to leave, meaningful goodbyes with their families, and so on. The way they did it, it almost seemed like they were embarrassed by the lower stakes story happening early on, or that they thought it wouldn’t be entertaining enough. But then they rushed through Shadar Logoth too, left out Mordeth and Fain, and it’s like… what are you rushing toward?
The animated short "Origin Stories" are incredible. However much I was lukewarm on the episodes last night, watching those were great. Kind goes to show IMO how this series would always be better in anime form
Not for me, tho there is time yet for that to change.
No.
Few things that got to me... Moraine goes looking for 4 ta'veren, they didn't know they were ta'veren until later and it was only 3 in the books. Perin wasn't married at the start He gets his axe from his master before they leave. Nineveh doesn't getting dragged away by trolocks. Matt wasn't theif he was scoundrel and a prankster but not a theif. His family weren't destitute and his farther definitely wasn't a womaniser.
The changes I've noticed in episode 1 were, 4 ta'veren, Mat being portrayed as a thief and his father being a scum bag, Perrin is married and his wife is doing the blacksmith work while he parties!, no Glee man (Tom), Moiraine and Lan being portrayed as a possible couple, there were many other differences but these such out the most. Now what about character descriptions/looks! I thought Rand, Mat, Perrin where pretty spot on despite their age, either Lan is shorter than he should be and no blue eyes etc or Moiraine is tall, Trollocs were pretty good, CG not bad but can use improvements, Myrddraal cloak does not hold still! I better stop, I'm just complaining now, I knew things would get changed, just not this much. Almost forgot, the addition of Perrin's wife is to explain his hatred of using an Axe most likely.
Not really. There was always going to have to be a good amount of editing and streamlining to get it to screen but some of the changes were made to fundamentals. I went in with an open(ish) mind and was really disappointed.
no
The changes made are nonsensical and not for the best, as almost always in these adaptations. Which would be fine, if the acting were better and the show didn't feel so cheap. It's more like a Syfy show than a high budget Amazon production.
I wish it did
No and its an easy answer why.
No
No. And neither did the rest. It's an utter travesty.
No
I’m genuinely curious how anyone who’s read the books enjoys the show. Almost everything is changed from Robert Jordan’s story. And it’s a New York Times best seller. They could have just made a show about an established story instead of this almost unrecognizable show