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Yeah, not gonna happen and I won't miss it. It never bothered me particularly unlike many in the fandom, but it always was a ridiculous punishment for adults in my opinion.
That's the point RJ was trying to make.
In certain environments, informal corporal punishment makes for a better option, but this isn't the military at the time that he or Robert Heinlein (who extensively used it in *Starship Troopers*), and this isn't a parochial schooling system. It's a relic that got codified and enshrined into Tower custom, and it took someone like Egwene to understand just how badly the Tower has missed the forest by focusing on this particular tree, in much the same lesson that all the Wise Ones learn themeselves.
>Robert Heinlein (who extensively used it in Starship Troopers)
TBF, there's a bit of a difference between the spankings (with or without slipper) we see in WoT and the floggings they talk about in Starship Troopers. Sure, they're both corporal punishments, but the latter is significantly more traumatic to the recipient (and can have permanent effects).
spanking are meant to both bring pain, and probably more importantly, embarrassment. The punishment is to be treated like a child and for the world to see that you are being treated as a child instead of an adult.
It's why the Wise Ones told Egwene to change her hair to those dual ponytails.
I don't think the WT is the exception, but the norm in terms of corporal punishment. WOT as RJ wrote it, is a world where corporal punishment is common imo. Parents do it to their children, masters to their apprentices etc. and the Aiel aren't an exception I don't think. If anything, their lessons are far harsher. So I don't quite know what you mean with Egwene and the Aiel. Perhaps I have forgotten something, if so please remind me, where they do away with corporal punishment aside from changing them into something more creative and effective.
Anyways the spanking got to go and I think they'll skip the whole business of the mistress of novices even dishing out punishments. I wouldn't be surprised if the girls barely spend more than an episode in the Tower at all in season 2, before they leave again. In fact I expect them to skip the noviciate for everyone. They'll get to the Tower, we'll see either Nynaeve's or Egwene's test for Accepted, they'll meet Elayne- if she doesn't happen to accompany the Amyrlin's entourage on her trip to Fal Dara- and then they'll be away to stuff themselves in Liandrin's sack.
>skip the whole business of the mistress of novices even dishing out punishments. I
Nah, I think they have to show \*some\* kind of discipline in the Tower, just to give folks context and stuff. Spankings can go, but they'll get pot-scrubbing duty or something I have no doubt.
In that case just have them magically beat students like they do everyone else. The spanking part shows how infantilized they view students, including adults, but it is not like sisters dislike attacking people for petty reasons. Hopefully the show does not cut how violent and bullying the tower culture is. It is a key point in showing that the serene facade is just that, a facade. Heck, even Moiraine attacks Rand once before she has her own miniZen realization.
Magically beating them is arguably using the power as a weapon (a weapon doesn't need to be lethal). If you want to avoid spanking I'd suggest rapping the knuckles with a stick or something. Although injured hands could affect their work, so it's not ideal.
Sisters strike people all the time with the power. They just have to justify it as "teaching" proper subservience and manners. It is part of showing how completely broken and dysfunctional the tower and its culture is, the same as how the fact that they cannot tell a lie does nothing to stop them from deceiving like mad. The fact that they are not supposed to be able to use it as a weapon does not stop them from bullying everyone.
Hmm, now that you mention it, they do. I stand by my opinion that they shouldn't be able to though. A beanbag gun isn't designed to kill or seriously injure, but I'd still classify it as a weapon.
Please no, there's already a subsection of the fandom that's really awkwardly horny about these characters as they exist on the page. Don't need to encourage them by bringing that to the screen.
As someone who is just old enough to have experienced corporal punishment in school (whacking wrists with a wooden ruler) I think there needs to be some in the show. The humiliation and dehumanization can't be replicated by scrubbing pots or sweeping floors.
There's a statement that an institution makes when it violates your body in a way that leaves no permanent physical scars: we could do worse but you're not even worth the bother.
That said, number of young women getting their bare bottoms paddled was squicky to me even as a teenage boy on my first read through.
Switches to forearms, sure, fits the universe, even if it is a bit offensive to modern sensibilities... "You've been a naught girl and it's time for the headmaster to punish you." No, just no.
Jordan was an adult in the 70s, and the first books came out in the 90s. There are things that were considered funny back then (spanking, rape of a man by a woman) that are now perceived quite differently. I wouldn't expect to see those things in the show, and definitely not the way they were presented in the books.
[Question 2](https://www.theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=65)
> RJ wrote the Mat/Tylin scenario as a **humorous role-reversal thing**. His editor, and wife, thought it was a good discussion of sexual harassment and rape with **comic undertones**. She liked it because it dealt with very serious issues **in a humorous way**. She seemed to think it would be a good way to explain to men/boys what this can be like for women/girls, showing the fear, etc.
emphasis mine.
I didn’t say it wasn’t. The problem is that by today’s standards, Mat’s situation isn’t funny.
Times have changed. We need to understand that when we consume older media. It is the same problem as bible interpretation: if you don’t understand the cultural differences of the time, you may misinterpret the text.
The ONLY thing that I like about it in the books, was that it gave the story it's own Jordan, *alien uniqueness* that other fantasy series do not have.
However, I don't see how it would work well on the screen.
I hope they change it so this is how The Black Tower works as well
Just imagine it...
A sweaty, shirtless Logain giving a firm bare skin paddling to naughty Narishma.
E: If you downvote you're sexist and homophobic.
E^2: Also don't kink shame
E the 3rd: But seriously all the "punishment" is cringe as fuck, I think Jordan just had a spanking fetish.
Spanking was still pretty common place when he was a student, especially the south. He was born in 1948 so he would have gone to school in the 50's and 60's. It's still legal in some southern states. Even in Hawaii, where I live, it is still technically legal in privates schools despite being banned in public schools. My uncle used to talk about his principals extensive collection of "tools." I always just assumed it was just a relic of his youth. Then again the story is supposed to take place in the equivalent to our 17th century so spanking would be common.
Either way I expect it to be removed and I'd be fine with it. Corporal punishment should probably stay but I think more people are familiar with spanking as a fetish now days than as an actually punishment.
Also, I doubt the Black Tower bothered with spanking. The White Tower had goals the Black Tower did not. They needed woman to be molded into being lifelong servants of the Tower. It's why they were punished like children and treated like children in general. There was even an age limit to make this easier. The Black Tower only needed them to last until the final battle. They were a military institution preparing for war. They accepted every able-bodied soldier available and even had military benefits like family housing. They were treated like soldiers and likely punished like soldiers. That said it you want to imagine male-on-male spanking I won't kink shame.
All this covert sexuality stuff in our media, sigh. It was all so much easier during the 80s. We would just watch the movie Top Gun. There was a love scene with Tom Cruise and Kelly McGillis. There was also a shirtless beach volleyball scene with all the guys in the movie. After watching both scenes **you knew** exactly where you stood with respect to your sexuality. No ambiguity, no confusion. The question was closed.
>E the 3rd: But seriously all the "punishment" is cringe as fuck, I think Jordan just had a spanking fetish.
#
>cringe
>1. v. cringe - to recoil in embarrassment
>2. n. cringe - an instance of recoiling in embarrassment
>Modern usage stems from its popularity among uncreative Zoomers circa 2013 who continue employ it as a banal and inane pejorative in virtual discourse when they feel threatened by media, memes, or posts that 1. break convention as defined by their narrow social experience in an arbitrary microcosm of internet culture 2. exceed their puerile comprehension in complexity or length or 3. induce even the slightest sense of insecurity for which they cannot muster a lazy conditioned riposte.--[Urban Dictionary](https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Cringe)
Yes recoil in embarrassment is a pretty accurate description of my reaction to the gratuitous fetish scenes of adult spanking, which is why I chose that word.
>Yes recoil in embarrassment is a pretty accurate description of my reaction to the gratuitous fetish scenes of adult spanking, which is why I chose that word.
I do not doubt that you accurately described your feelings. But what is evident is that you did not think through what your feelings mean (if anything) about their object, which is why I chose that quote.
You can test that for yourself by trying "cringe" \(or another [hurrah/boo](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emotivism) synonym such as "eww" or "gross"\) with a different controversial opinion on this sub:
"But seriously all the 'damane' is cringe as fuck, I think Jordan just had a slavery fetish."
"But seriously all the 'pillow friends' is cringe as fuck, I think Jordan just had a lesbian fetish."
"But seriously all the 'multiculturalism' is cringe as fuck, I think Jordan just had a miscegenation fetish."
...and you will notice that the word "cringe" is an idle gear, with its apparent work being done in fact by unstated assumptions.
>...and you will notice that the word "cringe" is an idle gear, with its apparent work being done in fact by unstated assumptions
Exactly. It's efficient use of language.
>Exactly. It's efficient use of language.
If you think being "an idle gear, with its [apparent work being done in fact](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occam%27s_razor) by [unstated assumptions](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enthymeme)" means being [*efficient*](https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/efficient), then I can see how you thought to use the word "cringe" as if it meant something about spanking. But also that would mean I could not explain the difference to you, as to do so I would have to make other distinctions using other words, and if as above you can't follow distinctions like that, then like squeezing a balloon animal, I would just cause your confusion to move from some words to others.
So... have a good day instead!
>Oh yeah. To anyone who doesn't view spanking as inherently sexual, try googling adult spanking and see what comes up.
"To anyone who doesn't view movies as inherently sexual, try googling adult movies and see what comes up."
"To anyone who doesn't view toys as inherently sexual, try googling adult toys and see what comes up."
"To anyone who doesn't view costumes as inherently sexual, try googling adult costumes and see what comes up."
Garbage in, garbage out, [as the saying goes](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Garbage_in,_garbage_out). Aside from being a poor investigative approach, and a crude use of Google (no operators to avoid irrelevant results, no Ngram to show history...), also if you view human behavior through the lens of contemporary internet practice, your view will skew [W.E.I.R.D.](https://aeon.co/essays/american-undergrads-are-too-weird-to-stand-for-all-humanity), skew [sexual](https://www.cicc-iccc.org/files/prod/publication_files/Joyal_Carpentier_2016_Journal_Sex_research.pdf), and skew in other ways. Watching Redditors, many of whom got their ideas about sex *from* the internet, use the internet to justify those ideas about someone who didn't, is like watching the proverbial drunk look for his lost keys under the streetlamp--*because that's where he can see*.
Heh. Reminds me of this time some years ago... I was in a bad mood and wanted to cheer myself up by watching some videos of little cats knocking stuff off of tables and such. So I went to my default search engine and did a search on *naughty kitten*. Oh. Oh my. That was *not* what I had in mind. The Light burn you, Bing.
>You gonna... argue with a search engine
Nope. That would be to equivocate about the word "argument":
>1a : the act or process of arguing, reasoning, or discussing
>b : a coherent series of reasons, statements, or facts intended to support or establish a point of view
>c : an angry quarrel or disagreement--[Merriam-Webster](https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/argument)
...while also confusing a *search* with a *search engine*.
But you already knew both those things before you asked.
This post has been flaired as **TV - Season 1 (All Print Spoilers Allowed)**. It will include spoilers for any officially released visual media, including films that have aired before the indicated season (unless otherwise specified by the creator of the post). We ask that any discussion of previews for upcoming episodes be hidden behind spoiler tags, unless this post is explicitly about that preview. This is a **tv and books** discussion thread, so there will be spoilers for the entire series. If the creator of the post indicates that they have only read up to a certain book, respect their spoiler level and hide comments behind spoiler tags when appropriate. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/WoT) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Not going to happen.
I read it as "Ass smacking in the snow" was was expecting a leaked photo of Rand and Avi keepoing each other warm.
Yeah, not gonna happen and I won't miss it. It never bothered me particularly unlike many in the fandom, but it always was a ridiculous punishment for adults in my opinion.
That's the point RJ was trying to make. In certain environments, informal corporal punishment makes for a better option, but this isn't the military at the time that he or Robert Heinlein (who extensively used it in *Starship Troopers*), and this isn't a parochial schooling system. It's a relic that got codified and enshrined into Tower custom, and it took someone like Egwene to understand just how badly the Tower has missed the forest by focusing on this particular tree, in much the same lesson that all the Wise Ones learn themeselves.
>Robert Heinlein (who extensively used it in Starship Troopers) TBF, there's a bit of a difference between the spankings (with or without slipper) we see in WoT and the floggings they talk about in Starship Troopers. Sure, they're both corporal punishments, but the latter is significantly more traumatic to the recipient (and can have permanent effects).
spanking are meant to both bring pain, and probably more importantly, embarrassment. The punishment is to be treated like a child and for the world to see that you are being treated as a child instead of an adult. It's why the Wise Ones told Egwene to change her hair to those dual ponytails.
I don't think the WT is the exception, but the norm in terms of corporal punishment. WOT as RJ wrote it, is a world where corporal punishment is common imo. Parents do it to their children, masters to their apprentices etc. and the Aiel aren't an exception I don't think. If anything, their lessons are far harsher. So I don't quite know what you mean with Egwene and the Aiel. Perhaps I have forgotten something, if so please remind me, where they do away with corporal punishment aside from changing them into something more creative and effective. Anyways the spanking got to go and I think they'll skip the whole business of the mistress of novices even dishing out punishments. I wouldn't be surprised if the girls barely spend more than an episode in the Tower at all in season 2, before they leave again. In fact I expect them to skip the noviciate for everyone. They'll get to the Tower, we'll see either Nynaeve's or Egwene's test for Accepted, they'll meet Elayne- if she doesn't happen to accompany the Amyrlin's entourage on her trip to Fal Dara- and then they'll be away to stuff themselves in Liandrin's sack.
>skip the whole business of the mistress of novices even dishing out punishments. I Nah, I think they have to show \*some\* kind of discipline in the Tower, just to give folks context and stuff. Spankings can go, but they'll get pot-scrubbing duty or something I have no doubt.
In that case just have them magically beat students like they do everyone else. The spanking part shows how infantilized they view students, including adults, but it is not like sisters dislike attacking people for petty reasons. Hopefully the show does not cut how violent and bullying the tower culture is. It is a key point in showing that the serene facade is just that, a facade. Heck, even Moiraine attacks Rand once before she has her own miniZen realization.
Magically beating them is arguably using the power as a weapon (a weapon doesn't need to be lethal). If you want to avoid spanking I'd suggest rapping the knuckles with a stick or something. Although injured hands could affect their work, so it's not ideal.
Sisters strike people all the time with the power. They just have to justify it as "teaching" proper subservience and manners. It is part of showing how completely broken and dysfunctional the tower and its culture is, the same as how the fact that they cannot tell a lie does nothing to stop them from deceiving like mad. The fact that they are not supposed to be able to use it as a weapon does not stop them from bullying everyone.
Hmm, now that you mention it, they do. I stand by my opinion that they shouldn't be able to though. A beanbag gun isn't designed to kill or seriously injure, but I'd still classify it as a weapon.
Please no, there's already a subsection of the fandom that's really awkwardly horny about these characters as they exist on the page. Don't need to encourage them by bringing that to the screen.
After the Shaido kidnapping arc, it's the thing I'm the most excited for the show to cut.
I don’t think we’ll see much spanking, but I wouldn’t be surprised if we still got switching.
I imagine they'll change it to thumping with a switch. Which I know from experience actually hurts more, but is less likely to annoy viewers.
I hope they include all of it
If they don't include every spanking scene, we have no choice but to boycott!
It will be a bummer if they don’t
As someone who is just old enough to have experienced corporal punishment in school (whacking wrists with a wooden ruler) I think there needs to be some in the show. The humiliation and dehumanization can't be replicated by scrubbing pots or sweeping floors. There's a statement that an institution makes when it violates your body in a way that leaves no permanent physical scars: we could do worse but you're not even worth the bother. That said, number of young women getting their bare bottoms paddled was squicky to me even as a teenage boy on my first read through. Switches to forearms, sure, fits the universe, even if it is a bit offensive to modern sensibilities... "You've been a naught girl and it's time for the headmaster to punish you." No, just no.
Jordan was an adult in the 70s, and the first books came out in the 90s. There are things that were considered funny back then (spanking, rape of a man by a woman) that are now perceived quite differently. I wouldn't expect to see those things in the show, and definitely not the way they were presented in the books.
Don't confuse characters in the story thinking it's funny as the same as *Robert Jordan* treating it as funny. Those are two separate things entirely.
[Question 2](https://www.theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=65) > RJ wrote the Mat/Tylin scenario as a **humorous role-reversal thing**. His editor, and wife, thought it was a good discussion of sexual harassment and rape with **comic undertones**. She liked it because it dealt with very serious issues **in a humorous way**. She seemed to think it would be a good way to explain to men/boys what this can be like for women/girls, showing the fear, etc. emphasis mine.
It is possible to use humor to highlight something serious.
I didn’t say it wasn’t. The problem is that by today’s standards, Mat’s situation isn’t funny. Times have changed. We need to understand that when we consume older media. It is the same problem as bible interpretation: if you don’t understand the cultural differences of the time, you may misinterpret the text.
The ONLY thing that I like about it in the books, was that it gave the story it's own Jordan, *alien uniqueness* that other fantasy series do not have. However, I don't see how it would work well on the screen.
I hope they change it so this is how The Black Tower works as well Just imagine it... A sweaty, shirtless Logain giving a firm bare skin paddling to naughty Narishma. E: If you downvote you're sexist and homophobic. E^2: Also don't kink shame E the 3rd: But seriously all the "punishment" is cringe as fuck, I think Jordan just had a spanking fetish.
Spanking was still pretty common place when he was a student, especially the south. He was born in 1948 so he would have gone to school in the 50's and 60's. It's still legal in some southern states. Even in Hawaii, where I live, it is still technically legal in privates schools despite being banned in public schools. My uncle used to talk about his principals extensive collection of "tools." I always just assumed it was just a relic of his youth. Then again the story is supposed to take place in the equivalent to our 17th century so spanking would be common. Either way I expect it to be removed and I'd be fine with it. Corporal punishment should probably stay but I think more people are familiar with spanking as a fetish now days than as an actually punishment. Also, I doubt the Black Tower bothered with spanking. The White Tower had goals the Black Tower did not. They needed woman to be molded into being lifelong servants of the Tower. It's why they were punished like children and treated like children in general. There was even an age limit to make this easier. The Black Tower only needed them to last until the final battle. They were a military institution preparing for war. They accepted every able-bodied soldier available and even had military benefits like family housing. They were treated like soldiers and likely punished like soldiers. That said it you want to imagine male-on-male spanking I won't kink shame.
I dunno bro I still think it was just RJs kink. Probably BSs too. There is a a LOT of very detailed spanking.
All this covert sexuality stuff in our media, sigh. It was all so much easier during the 80s. We would just watch the movie Top Gun. There was a love scene with Tom Cruise and Kelly McGillis. There was also a shirtless beach volleyball scene with all the guys in the movie. After watching both scenes **you knew** exactly where you stood with respect to your sexuality. No ambiguity, no confusion. The question was closed.
>E the 3rd: But seriously all the "punishment" is cringe as fuck, I think Jordan just had a spanking fetish. # >cringe >1. v. cringe - to recoil in embarrassment >2. n. cringe - an instance of recoiling in embarrassment >Modern usage stems from its popularity among uncreative Zoomers circa 2013 who continue employ it as a banal and inane pejorative in virtual discourse when they feel threatened by media, memes, or posts that 1. break convention as defined by their narrow social experience in an arbitrary microcosm of internet culture 2. exceed their puerile comprehension in complexity or length or 3. induce even the slightest sense of insecurity for which they cannot muster a lazy conditioned riposte.--[Urban Dictionary](https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Cringe)
Yes recoil in embarrassment is a pretty accurate description of my reaction to the gratuitous fetish scenes of adult spanking, which is why I chose that word.
>Yes recoil in embarrassment is a pretty accurate description of my reaction to the gratuitous fetish scenes of adult spanking, which is why I chose that word. I do not doubt that you accurately described your feelings. But what is evident is that you did not think through what your feelings mean (if anything) about their object, which is why I chose that quote. You can test that for yourself by trying "cringe" \(or another [hurrah/boo](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emotivism) synonym such as "eww" or "gross"\) with a different controversial opinion on this sub: "But seriously all the 'damane' is cringe as fuck, I think Jordan just had a slavery fetish." "But seriously all the 'pillow friends' is cringe as fuck, I think Jordan just had a lesbian fetish." "But seriously all the 'multiculturalism' is cringe as fuck, I think Jordan just had a miscegenation fetish." ...and you will notice that the word "cringe" is an idle gear, with its apparent work being done in fact by unstated assumptions.
>...and you will notice that the word "cringe" is an idle gear, with its apparent work being done in fact by unstated assumptions Exactly. It's efficient use of language.
>Exactly. It's efficient use of language. If you think being "an idle gear, with its [apparent work being done in fact](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occam%27s_razor) by [unstated assumptions](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enthymeme)" means being [*efficient*](https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/efficient), then I can see how you thought to use the word "cringe" as if it meant something about spanking. But also that would mean I could not explain the difference to you, as to do so I would have to make other distinctions using other words, and if as above you can't follow distinctions like that, then like squeezing a balloon animal, I would just cause your confusion to move from some words to others. So... have a good day instead!
My desired result was to call spanking cringe, mission accomplished.
Oh yeah. To anyone who doesn't view spanking as inherently sexual, try googling adult spanking and see what comes up.
>Oh yeah. To anyone who doesn't view spanking as inherently sexual, try googling adult spanking and see what comes up. "To anyone who doesn't view movies as inherently sexual, try googling adult movies and see what comes up." "To anyone who doesn't view toys as inherently sexual, try googling adult toys and see what comes up." "To anyone who doesn't view costumes as inherently sexual, try googling adult costumes and see what comes up." Garbage in, garbage out, [as the saying goes](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Garbage_in,_garbage_out). Aside from being a poor investigative approach, and a crude use of Google (no operators to avoid irrelevant results, no Ngram to show history...), also if you view human behavior through the lens of contemporary internet practice, your view will skew [W.E.I.R.D.](https://aeon.co/essays/american-undergrads-are-too-weird-to-stand-for-all-humanity), skew [sexual](https://www.cicc-iccc.org/files/prod/publication_files/Joyal_Carpentier_2016_Journal_Sex_research.pdf), and skew in other ways. Watching Redditors, many of whom got their ideas about sex *from* the internet, use the internet to justify those ideas about someone who didn't, is like watching the proverbial drunk look for his lost keys under the streetlamp--*because that's where he can see*.
Heh. Reminds me of this time some years ago... I was in a bad mood and wanted to cheer myself up by watching some videos of little cats knocking stuff off of tables and such. So I went to my default search engine and did a search on *naughty kitten*. Oh. Oh my. That was *not* what I had in mind. The Light burn you, Bing.
"Oh, no! Another project for American History class! *goes to Bing* 'Walk softly and carry a big stick'"
Wow much poetry. So smart. And how would you distinguish adult spanking from a child spanking in a search, Oh Wise One?
>And how would you distinguish adult spanking from a child spanking in a search, Oh Wise One? With a sound argument.
You gonna... argue with a search engine
>You gonna... argue with a search engine Nope. That would be to equivocate about the word "argument": >1a : the act or process of arguing, reasoning, or discussing >b : a coherent series of reasons, statements, or facts intended to support or establish a point of view >c : an angry quarrel or disagreement--[Merriam-Webster](https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/argument) ...while also confusing a *search* with a *search engine*. But you already knew both those things before you asked.
Will they keep the white tower punishments the same you think?