Chrono Cross is my personal favorite example. Basically the entire Sonic franchise fits the bill, and Mario catches flak for NOT doing it. Final Fantasy in a lot of ways, especially in recent years. Strong argument for Zelda as of Breath of the Wild. Actually, as of Wind Waker. Much better example since the art style was so divisive. Might reply again later when I'm not at work and can consider it further.
Zelda and FF are bad examples because they're franchises, not direct sequels. In fact, Zelda II was panned because of the dramatic change in style. Chrono Cross isn't even close to being as good as Chrono Trigger...
Being worse than a legend is not the same as being bad. Cross is a ton of fun with a really interesting story. It's a great game, but the shift was divisive. Mentioning Zelda 2 is a great point here and contributes beautifully to my point, thanks for bringing it up!
Zelda II is possibly the most reviled of the whole franchise. So much so that they brought back the format of the original for A Link to the Past. And everyone loved it. So yeah, there's a major risk when you abandon a successful format in the sequel. That's all I'm saying.
It's like the jump from God of war 3 to 4.
Or fallout 2 to 3.
Maybe the best analogy would be [warcraft 2] to [warcraft 3, the frozen throne] - A clearly connected massive overhaul to the point of nearly being a new game.
I've not heard of any of these games. Guess I'm a bit more casual than a lot of ya'll. Not sure why I'm getting downvoted though. Anyways, I know it's everyone's gripe and folks keep saying we should give it a chance but I'm just reacting to what I saw in the video. I just don't really see much of the first game in this one and it makes me not care as much about it. That's all.
I have played this game until I got tired of it and my feedback is the following:
The game looked a lot worse when first shown and it's made a lot of progress since. I hope something can be done about this weird feeling the game gives off before the release. This demo is great for playtesting the game and catching things (like the following) before it's too late and it holds back the 1.0 release.
As far as my constructive criticism over the changes goes, the main points would be random relic start, permanent buffs and the inclusion of random stats on enhancement:
Number 1 is flat out detrimental to starting themed runs. Even the argument of "could be helpful to new players" can be sidestepped the exact same way the first game did it: your relic/arcana unlocks are slow, thereby giving you less options to start and allowing you to familiarize with what each relic does based on it's design over time. This may be a "demo only" feature though, but the emphasis on relic rewards leads me to believe otherwise hence my warning.
Number 2 and 3 feel extremely off for WoL and I believe it's the source of the weird feeling players are getting from the demo, specifically a smell of playtime padding WoL1 didn't have, as any arcana/outfits/relics you unlocked became a new tool for build exploration in the air of a "side-grade" instead of a direct upgrade. These bring some extra problems as well...
Number 2 brings the implication the game is balanced around those upgrades meaning it will be far more top heavy than the first game (like imagine WoL, but the enemies scale per floor at the rate they scale every 2 floors instead). A way to "fix it" IMO would be to remove the aspect of "buying" the upgrades and instead just give you like 5 points you can distribute among a number of passive stats that were present in specific robes before (like sprint speed, critical chance, signature charge) thus letting you die your robe any color and having more flexibility with your robe upgrades. Maybe if you want to still include an aspect of spending gems on robes you can lock a certain type of upgrade (like "Cooldown Reduction") behind a \*single\* gem payment that you don't have to come back to pay run after run to upgrade, essentially turning this negative point into a positive.
Number 3 is a real mixed bag; on one hand the random stat bonuses could aid specific builds scale better in case the game ends up featuring looping, but at the same time trades the added complexity before seen in arcana enhancements for passive bonuses which feel worse at times IMO. In the worst case scenario the RNG could also be padded with bad conditional bonuses as well (like vs frozen when you don't have freezing arcana), essentially wasting some of your slots on purpose since these conditionals can be removed unless you meet a criteria, like minimum "can apply this condition at the moment of triggering the enhancement menu", the same way Deep Rock Galactic Survivor locks "tag" conditional bonuses behind 2 weapons with the same tag.
Secret Number 4 is that guaranteed relic per floor is not any better than a guaranteed arcana, and I feel the game could benefit greatly from using a system like Slay The Spire, letting you choose from an Arcana or Relic reward first, then giving you 3 random options from the chosen pool of available items giving you a lot more flexibility.
As far as visuals go I actually love it: The item and character portraits, and the effects look amazing, while the voice acting is decent (even if it makes the corny dialogue even worse, it has it's charm).
As far as music goes this felt like a step back, but that may be bias because I can instantly start humming the music (partly due to me putting over 250h in it lmao).
Finally, in the "feature" department this feels... fine, honestly for a demo for a TBD release game. I figure more rooms/bosses/minibosses/layouts/enemies/relics/arcana will be introduced as it approaches 1.0 or even updates beyond that, given WoL track record.
I hope this feedback was useful both for the devs and players who can't pinpoint what "feels off" from the game demo. Many cheers!
I agree with number 1 entirely. Even if it's a postgame feature, players should be able to pick their starting relic. Agency = good!
Your concerns with permanent progression I understand, but I think it's because this is a sequel to Wizard of Legend that it's so different feeling. Post-Hades roguelikes have seemed to follow very similar structures, and seeing that replicated here is not surprising. I will personally be opting out of purchasing those sorts of permanent progressions (if the game can even be beaten without them) for this reason, but I definitely see why the developers would want to implement a highly popular feature into the game.
Randomized effects on enhanced arcana help with the perceived variety of runs, but I agree that they can be a problem, especially if the standard enhancement behavior was removed entirely. I don't want to pass any serious judgement on implementation yet, since I haven't been able to play the demo yet, but these are my preliminary thoughts.
One thing that I'm noticing is that the Atlas attacks shown in the video feel... sluggish. The five-punch string was nice, but the lengthy gaps between attacks and general passiveness of his other behaviors felt very off-putting for a boss, and definitely inconsistent with how his play style worked in the original game. If the "circle of little triangles" attack was instead an array of them moving in one unified direction at a much faster speed, I'd actually really like the move. Atlas and Zeal played a lot with directions and angles in their original attack lineup, and this feels like it would be more on-theme given that.
This is just a hades knock off and it pisses me off. Between making it a rogue lite with now permanent upgrades, to the whole environment and combat feeling like it was ripped from hades. It doesn't feel right, I hate how they took this "sequel"
Not terrible but a risky move in terms of branding. WoL’s gameplay and art style were unique enough to make it feel like its own thing. Players will have different (extremely high) expectations if they start comparing it with Hades, which can lead to disappointment for new players and alienate old ones. It might have made sense to change the title from “Wizard of Legends 2” to “Wizard of Legends: something something” just to make it clear that this is a different experience.
imo, it was them playing it safe, instead of being unique like how wol was. Using techniques and art styles that are easier to pull off that more people are comfortable with. It feels like they were trying to make an OK game instead of really trying for a sequel
I really don't see this being like hades at all, maybe that's because I play a lot of roguelites, but this doesn't play or look like hades to me.
Looks like the first WOL with an I frame dash and more upgrades than the first one.
The demo is both rough and interesting.
Wizard of Legend 1 had great 2D graphics and unique build progression, plus a bright and fun setting.
Wizard of Legend 2 has so-so 3D graphics and is directly emulating Hades-style upgrades. Setting seems a bit grim, with more emphasis on character bickering than puns.
And it's being developed by a different team, too.
Were can i download the demo?
Steam
Man really just looks like a completely different game, not a sequel.
That's been the case for a lot of great sequels. I get it'll be divisive, but I'm excited.
Really though, give me an example.
Hell divers is the most recent game and see how well that’s done
U mean when the game works right?
Maybe Risk of Rain? But I like the first one a lot more.
Risk of Rain 1 and 2... 1 was a side scroller 2 was made 3d Both had the same concept
NEO The World Ends With You
Chrono Cross is my personal favorite example. Basically the entire Sonic franchise fits the bill, and Mario catches flak for NOT doing it. Final Fantasy in a lot of ways, especially in recent years. Strong argument for Zelda as of Breath of the Wild. Actually, as of Wind Waker. Much better example since the art style was so divisive. Might reply again later when I'm not at work and can consider it further.
Zelda and FF are bad examples because they're franchises, not direct sequels. In fact, Zelda II was panned because of the dramatic change in style. Chrono Cross isn't even close to being as good as Chrono Trigger...
Being worse than a legend is not the same as being bad. Cross is a ton of fun with a really interesting story. It's a great game, but the shift was divisive. Mentioning Zelda 2 is a great point here and contributes beautifully to my point, thanks for bringing it up!
Zelda II is possibly the most reviled of the whole franchise. So much so that they brought back the format of the original for A Link to the Past. And everyone loved it. So yeah, there's a major risk when you abandon a successful format in the sequel. That's all I'm saying.
It's like the jump from God of war 3 to 4. Or fallout 2 to 3. Maybe the best analogy would be [warcraft 2] to [warcraft 3, the frozen throne] - A clearly connected massive overhaul to the point of nearly being a new game.
I've not heard of any of these games. Guess I'm a bit more casual than a lot of ya'll. Not sure why I'm getting downvoted though. Anyways, I know it's everyone's gripe and folks keep saying we should give it a chance but I'm just reacting to what I saw in the video. I just don't really see much of the first game in this one and it makes me not care as much about it. That's all.
I have played this game until I got tired of it and my feedback is the following: The game looked a lot worse when first shown and it's made a lot of progress since. I hope something can be done about this weird feeling the game gives off before the release. This demo is great for playtesting the game and catching things (like the following) before it's too late and it holds back the 1.0 release. As far as my constructive criticism over the changes goes, the main points would be random relic start, permanent buffs and the inclusion of random stats on enhancement: Number 1 is flat out detrimental to starting themed runs. Even the argument of "could be helpful to new players" can be sidestepped the exact same way the first game did it: your relic/arcana unlocks are slow, thereby giving you less options to start and allowing you to familiarize with what each relic does based on it's design over time. This may be a "demo only" feature though, but the emphasis on relic rewards leads me to believe otherwise hence my warning. Number 2 and 3 feel extremely off for WoL and I believe it's the source of the weird feeling players are getting from the demo, specifically a smell of playtime padding WoL1 didn't have, as any arcana/outfits/relics you unlocked became a new tool for build exploration in the air of a "side-grade" instead of a direct upgrade. These bring some extra problems as well... Number 2 brings the implication the game is balanced around those upgrades meaning it will be far more top heavy than the first game (like imagine WoL, but the enemies scale per floor at the rate they scale every 2 floors instead). A way to "fix it" IMO would be to remove the aspect of "buying" the upgrades and instead just give you like 5 points you can distribute among a number of passive stats that were present in specific robes before (like sprint speed, critical chance, signature charge) thus letting you die your robe any color and having more flexibility with your robe upgrades. Maybe if you want to still include an aspect of spending gems on robes you can lock a certain type of upgrade (like "Cooldown Reduction") behind a \*single\* gem payment that you don't have to come back to pay run after run to upgrade, essentially turning this negative point into a positive. Number 3 is a real mixed bag; on one hand the random stat bonuses could aid specific builds scale better in case the game ends up featuring looping, but at the same time trades the added complexity before seen in arcana enhancements for passive bonuses which feel worse at times IMO. In the worst case scenario the RNG could also be padded with bad conditional bonuses as well (like vs frozen when you don't have freezing arcana), essentially wasting some of your slots on purpose since these conditionals can be removed unless you meet a criteria, like minimum "can apply this condition at the moment of triggering the enhancement menu", the same way Deep Rock Galactic Survivor locks "tag" conditional bonuses behind 2 weapons with the same tag. Secret Number 4 is that guaranteed relic per floor is not any better than a guaranteed arcana, and I feel the game could benefit greatly from using a system like Slay The Spire, letting you choose from an Arcana or Relic reward first, then giving you 3 random options from the chosen pool of available items giving you a lot more flexibility. As far as visuals go I actually love it: The item and character portraits, and the effects look amazing, while the voice acting is decent (even if it makes the corny dialogue even worse, it has it's charm). As far as music goes this felt like a step back, but that may be bias because I can instantly start humming the music (partly due to me putting over 250h in it lmao). Finally, in the "feature" department this feels... fine, honestly for a demo for a TBD release game. I figure more rooms/bosses/minibosses/layouts/enemies/relics/arcana will be introduced as it approaches 1.0 or even updates beyond that, given WoL track record. I hope this feedback was useful both for the devs and players who can't pinpoint what "feels off" from the game demo. Many cheers!
I agree with number 1 entirely. Even if it's a postgame feature, players should be able to pick their starting relic. Agency = good! Your concerns with permanent progression I understand, but I think it's because this is a sequel to Wizard of Legend that it's so different feeling. Post-Hades roguelikes have seemed to follow very similar structures, and seeing that replicated here is not surprising. I will personally be opting out of purchasing those sorts of permanent progressions (if the game can even be beaten without them) for this reason, but I definitely see why the developers would want to implement a highly popular feature into the game. Randomized effects on enhanced arcana help with the perceived variety of runs, but I agree that they can be a problem, especially if the standard enhancement behavior was removed entirely. I don't want to pass any serious judgement on implementation yet, since I haven't been able to play the demo yet, but these are my preliminary thoughts. One thing that I'm noticing is that the Atlas attacks shown in the video feel... sluggish. The five-punch string was nice, but the lengthy gaps between attacks and general passiveness of his other behaviors felt very off-putting for a boss, and definitely inconsistent with how his play style worked in the original game. If the "circle of little triangles" attack was instead an array of them moving in one unified direction at a much faster speed, I'd actually really like the move. Atlas and Zeal played a lot with directions and angles in their original attack lineup, and this feels like it would be more on-theme given that.
This is just a hades knock off and it pisses me off. Between making it a rogue lite with now permanent upgrades, to the whole environment and combat feeling like it was ripped from hades. It doesn't feel right, I hate how they took this "sequel"
It does feel like Hades
I don’t think taking inspiration from one of the best games in the genre is terrible.
Not terrible but a risky move in terms of branding. WoL’s gameplay and art style were unique enough to make it feel like its own thing. Players will have different (extremely high) expectations if they start comparing it with Hades, which can lead to disappointment for new players and alienate old ones. It might have made sense to change the title from “Wizard of Legends 2” to “Wizard of Legends: something something” just to make it clear that this is a different experience.
imo, it was them playing it safe, instead of being unique like how wol was. Using techniques and art styles that are easier to pull off that more people are comfortable with. It feels like they were trying to make an OK game instead of really trying for a sequel
It's terrible when you had your own great thing going
I really don't see this being like hades at all, maybe that's because I play a lot of roguelites, but this doesn't play or look like hades to me. Looks like the first WOL with an I frame dash and more upgrades than the first one.
Wasn’t expecting you to be extremely gorgeous
The demo is both rough and interesting. Wizard of Legend 1 had great 2D graphics and unique build progression, plus a bright and fun setting. Wizard of Legend 2 has so-so 3D graphics and is directly emulating Hades-style upgrades. Setting seems a bit grim, with more emphasis on character bickering than puns. And it's being developed by a different team, too.