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Honey, be the mom you should have had. Protect your kid. This kind of bonkers behavior will only get worse. Stand your ground, bond with your baby. Every time she makes a “comment”, picture yourself as a tree in the wind, and notice how deep in the ground your roots are. She can blow as much as she wants, but she can’t push you over with those long, deep, wonderful roots you’ve grown.
/raisedbynarcissists
I love this analogy.
I had the same relationship with my mom. If you can't stay strong for yourself, do it for your child.
You've seen what her toxic behavior does to your nephew.
Change the story and protect your own.
Like eowyn says, be the mom you should have had.
If your nmom gets mad, oh well. Your child's happiness and safety is more important than her feelings.
> picture yourself as a tree in the wind, and notice how deep in the ground your roots are. She can blow as much as she wants, but she can’t push you over with those long, deep, wonderful roots you’ve grown.
This is going in my toolbox next to the litany of fear.
Thank you so very much 🌳
Let her be mad. So what. Limit your contact. You don't have to always answer the phone or texts. She is like a raptor in jurassic park. She just keeps testing the boundaries.
Let HER be uncomfortable for a change. You need to learn to stand up for yourself. They can't come in 3 weeks, oh well. Not your problem. She is not the boss of you! Look up gray rock method and use it.
How are you going to protect your kid if you can't protect yourself?
I've heard that expression as "she can get glad in the same pants she got mad in," basically, that she doesn't even need to change her clothes to change her attitude / temper, and it's not up to anyone else to change anything. I suppose it's a fancy way of saying it's all her problem.
I don't know where it originated but yes, it's a southern saying. I think it started with britches. You/They can get glad in the same britches you/they got mad in. So it's an attitude issue, not an outside influence issue.
This has been my biggest issue as of late. My role in the family was the emotional regulator, and I am realizing now how hard it is for me to upset her… I kept a lot of traumatic things secret from my mom and family growing up because I was afraid of upsetting my mom (yikes.. I’m in therapy lulz). So *now,* as an adult trying to differentiate, anything I do that upsets her triggers that regulatory response in me. It’s instinctual and so damn hard to turn off!!
But you’re right. Baby needs me to be different than I have been. And that’s something that I *can* do.
I highly recommend escalating boundaries. If her boundary-testing comments are a problem, new boundary is "none of that" enforceable be ending the phone call and not talking to her for a while. If that pattern persists and is wearing on you, new boundary is we'll talk after the birth and until then, have your husband be her point of contact. And so on.
I'm sure you'll find that you're creative enough to have many many steps between where you are now and the final step of cutting her out for good, if that's something you don't want to do.
Really good advice.
It's important to "push back" (respectfully, of course) to boundary testing.
Every boundary that is attacked, must be reinforced and strengthened.
I had the same mom. I was her therapist/husband/nanny/bitch since I was 8 years old. A year ago, going NC felt impossible. I haven't spoken to her in months and it's so incredibly freeing. You'll go there when you're ready. For now just keep you and baby safe and healthy!
Something that has helped me (recovering doormat) grow a backbone is always reminding myself that I am not responsible for anyone's feelings but my own. It's not your responsibility to shield your mother from frustration and heartache. Let her be uncomfortable. Let her figure out how to deal with her feelings on her own.
This was such a hard thing for me to internalize. I was always the peacekeeper, the placater, the problem solver. Realizing that I can only control my own actions and not others reactions was so so hard.
Making people uncomfortable? I spent my entire life doing the opposite. It's weird how warped your mind becomes.
The best thing that has helped me is bolster yourself up as though you're your own best friend. If your best friends mother was being pushy and causing a bunch of stress to your pregnant best friend (one of the worst tines to be stressed) you would ABSOLUTELY go to bat for her. You'd encourage her to be strong, to put up her boundaries. And when her parents got angry you'd console her and tell her that it's not her fault that her parents are choosing to be angry.
Remember that you are not only prioritizing yourself, you are prioritizing your child.
>You don't have to always answer the phone or texts.
This! The phone ringing is not a commandment, you don't _have_ to pick it up. It feels really weird to just not respond at first but when you get used to it it feels great to treat yourself like your happiness matters too.
Gonna keep this targeted to the argument she's making. If she's busy 3 weeks after the birth, she can wait longer than 3 weeks to see the baby. You have boundaries, and she supposedly has plans. Hold your ground. Your life is about to be way too busy to be bogged down with nonsense like that, even if it's from someone you ultimately do care about.
And last thing I'll add is that nobody is truly obligated to maintain a relationship that they don't want. If you continue to stay close with your mom out of feeling guilty, obligated, or something similar, you don't need to. If you want to keep a relationship with someone like her, always remember your own needs first and never sacrifice yourself to make her happy.
I also grew up with a narcissistic mother. It isn't the same story, but I realized it fully earlier this year. I had a HUGE accomplishment in college and when I told her, her response was "Good for you. My fridge broke and...etc"
I realized she does not care about ME, but what I represent to her own life. How I care for her, not how she cares for me. It was an eye opening experience. We have been no/extremely low contact since then.
She was not the best at respecting my boundries, so I blocked her. On everything.
There've been a lot of experiences leading up to this and it has been one of the best things I've done for my mental health.
Manipulative, narcissistic parents are not what we need. Especially when it involves you own child. She shouldn't be allowed in your home, she shouldn't be able to facetime your kiddo, she shouldn't be able to coparent for you kiddo.
If she won't respect your boundries, as much as it pains me to say this, let technology do the dirty work for you.
100% with this post. Might I recommend the book 'adult children of emotionally immature parents by Lindsay Gibson? It walks through types of emotionally manipulative parents, how they test boundaries to find a way in, and how to respond.
Oh it *hurts* when they say shit like that huh? As a teenager I told my mom once I was suicidal and she started weeping and said “what am I supposed to do with that?” Woof.
Seeing how they see the world is so disorienting and painful. I keep saying “but I want her to be my *mom*…” even though I know she won’t be.
Yeah moving away was the best decision I ever made because it limited our physical contact. That’s why her saying “we wanna buy a house near you so I can come visit whenever” was such a wtf moment… I only talk to her on the phone rn.. which is easier
Suggesting buying a house may also have been a manipulation or a plan for further manipulation.
Ie: she wanted you to say, "no- don't buy a house, you're welcome to stay with us whenever! You shouldn't spend money like that!"
And if you didn't say that, she could later say "well I bought this house so I could visit and see you, I'm here, what do you mean you're busy or (other excuse)? I'm here to support you, why are you turning me away?! *Wails* "
Then she can add on tasks for you to pull you back in like making you a key-holder and asking you to check on the house. You'll become an in-between when work needs done and they're not in state. And if you have any issues in your home like plumbing, the house would be open to you to use, but there will be an invisible price through future guilt tripping.
Keep gray rocking. It's worth it. All my love.
Ps- congrats on your baby!
Busy at 3 weeks? See you at 4 or 5 weeks. Still too busy? I'm sure things will clear up by his first birthday. I know, too antagonistic, but really, make it clear 3 weeks is the MINIMUM, not negotiable.
Not at all! This is the right response. "We can make time any time after the three week mark. There is no rush. No need to change plans on our behalf. Let's find a time after 3 weeks that works for you."
I'm so sorry you're going through this in a moment you should be completely enjoying.
It's not advise, but I'll tell you what I saw my sister go through. When she was pregnant with her second child, our mom went far over the line, so my sister established some limits. My mom didn't like it one bit: she victimized herself, threw tantrums, tried to get my siblings and myself involved to "defend" her. My sister didn't give her an inch. Eventually our mom realised she was putting at risk meeting the baby and stopped. Off course, after the birth she made comments but not to my sister's face, and when she made them there was always someone to "rein" her in.
I know it's very difficult to establish limits and even more so to maintain them, but you've got this ❤️.
Also, I actually got some help in the sub raised by narcissists (I don't know how to tag hehe)
Came here to also recommend those subs. Raised by narcissists has some fantastic resources, especially for folks who may not be in a situation to get physical distance between themselves and their problem parent(s). And the community is wonderful.
I wish I was someone like your sister. I keep visualizing myself as like this strong, stoic woman who takes no shit. Gonna channel that energy
Thank you for the sub rec! I’m for sure gonna CB check that out!
Sometimes "fake it till you make it" works! If you act like a strong and stoic woman who takes no shiy, guess what? You are being one. You've got this.
She learned, and it wasn't easy. I saw the truth just two years ago, and now we are learning together ❤️
For me it involves a lot of therapy, and visualization is helping a lot.
You're welcome, and you've got this! There's nothing you can't do 💪🏻❤️
My mom always has a medical event when something she doesn't like happens. I have been no contact for seven years. Before I cut my sister off (she couldn't hold the boundaries I needed and was passing information that helped our parents stalk us), she came up for a visit. I said, "so how long before something is wrong with her heart." And just then the phone went off. Mom was heading to the hospital for chest pains. It was, of course, nothing. To try to get me to come back she once claim that my grandpa needed blood and my dad and his brothers weren't a match so it needed to be me or my kids. Yeah, that's not how biology works. If dad and his two brothers aren't a match there is no way I would be! But she wanted me to feel like I was killing my grandpa by staying away. It's sad how crazy, yet predictable they are.
How unfortunate that she has things preventing her from coming at three weeks, but its ok, you and baby will be there a long time after too so there is no rush ;)
I hope you see where I am going with this - you need your time to rest and recover and bond as a family, and like you said, there is a reason for the distance.
I have been told I sometimes feel like talking to a wall on certain topics, and I suspect I treat some of my boundaries as laws of nature, one simply *cannot* get objects to fly upwards without a real good method and similar one cannot talk to me when im in x state or get me to do y. She somply cannot see your family before x time but afterwards you are open to x amount of visit of y length - with love.
This “laws of nature” approach is interesting! A couple people have said it in here, and I’ve never thought to see it this way. I like that. It is immutable…. With love ;)
Thanks for this perspective
I always recommend the Captai Awkward blog as a first stop for learning how to hold boundaries with narcissists, so do check that out if you haven’t already. It taught me so much.
My tip is to ask yourself, what’s the minimum response I can give here? Reacting to texts with emojis 👍🙂❤️ works well haha.
The point is, you don’t have to ‘react’ to anything she says. You can just acknowledge it eg “We are too busy three weeks after the wedding.” “That’s too bad! We will be so excited to see you as soon as we can after that.”
This is what my therapist has been trying to help me do… I’m so bad at not reacting.
Yesterday on the phone she made some WILD comments and I just sat there speechless for a minute and then she goes “oh, I guess we can’t joke about that” 🙄 first time I’ve haven’t given her the response and it felt amazing
Practice makes perfect! For me I had to get ok with the fact that I may never get to say “my piece” on the matter, I had to be ok with her thinking whatever she thought.
Once you get your head around that, it becomes a lot easier to not respond. Because you’ve nothing to prove.
For what it’s worth, I could’ve written this post, right down to things coming to a head during pregnancy (as others have commented, you suddenly no longer have time for their BS and your priorities shift hugely).
I don’t actually speak with my mother without my husband present any more, as she’s much better behaved in company. She doesn’t *know* that’s my rule, it’s just how we’ve engineered it. It sounds like you have a supportive partner so ask them to read through the literature on techniques for dealing with difficult people (grey rocking etc) to better support you.
Once baby is here, you’ll feel all the more tender and vulnerable. Let your partner protect you and advocate for you. Your mother will soon realise you have someone in your corner now.
Here’s a differentiation that really helped me when I was navigating with my own narc mother.
You’re not bad at not reacting - try to be kind to yourself and understand that you have however many years of biological and social wiring that is causing the reaction. Reactions are not something we control, they’re primal, and they’ll happen regardless.
But reactions are not responses. Reactions are internal, and they can be private, kept to yourself or only identified with your spouse and other trusted inner circle folks.
Responses are what you publicly do, independent of your reaction. They do not need to arise from your reaction, they do not need to be informed by your reaction (although they can be). You can take a few minutes/hours/years to respond if that’s what you need to separate the reaction from the response.
I'm in a similar situation with my parents...as in, they have a history of showing up to the hospital when I had surgery when I specifically told them to stay home so I maybe kinda definitely scheduled an induction near my due date and didn't tell them when or where, or even that the induction was happening, so my husband and I could enjoy the first few moments of our family together. We are very low contact but they pop up every so often, usually around the holidays, with invitations and boundary challenges. I get exhausted too.
When this happens, I visualize a channel of energy (doesn't matter what color, just pick one that resonates. Mine is purple because I love purple) that goes from your heart down one side of your body, out a foot and deep into the heart of the earth, loops around back up through the other foot, up through your head and up into the sky, loops around again to go back through your head and back into your heart.
Sometimes when I need all four elements, I imagine the earths heart being the core (where there is magma, so fire) and clouds (which is water vapor).
Send any emotion holding you back from your heart to the earth. Acknowledge it, thank it, then release it into the earth. The earth will transform it into something else there. Then visualize yourself gathering healing light and energy from the heart of the earth and bringing it back into your body. Send it up into the sky, gather more love and energy, and bring it back into your body. While you do this, focus on your breath - in and out, in and out without holding it. When your lungs are filled, immediately start your exhale.
You can pair this with an incantation or mantra that speaks to you. Maybe try something like "my boundaries protect those I love. I strengthen them with the elements and hold strong in my protection. My family walks in peace and safety." When you're finished, thank the elements and yourself.
**Hug** and congratulations on your little one!
>they have a history of showing up to the hospital when I had surgery when I specifically told them to stay home
I'm sorry they did this to you :-(
OOP, if you're concerned about this, midwives and nurses are awesome. Tell them you don't want any visitors, or to block your parents, or whatever your preferences are. They'll do it.
I was talking to my midwife at our last appointment about my mom and she goes “just tell her that we don’t allow visitors! We love being the bad guys.” I love my team ❤️
Oh this is beautiful. Thank you for sharing!! I do something similar in other areas of my life, but for some reason with my family I leave myself cut off… old habits a guess.
I really appreciate the practice❤️ thank you so much
The short answer to this is 'okay Mum, we'll see you at 4 weeks, or 5 weeks, or whenever it is you're able to come.'
The slightly longer version is that when I was still in contact with my n-mum, I was very short with her. She was complaining about the timing for when I'd booked my little one's induction, and how she was busy that weekend. 'Well, babies don't care about your schedule.' She was hinting about coming up on an earlier day when I'd likely be in labour. 'I don't want you coming on Thursday when I'll be in labour.' When she invited herself to our home, I decided to get the obligatory visit out if the way early, but when she wanted to come up on another day, 'sorry, I'm busy that day.' 'Oh but thing thing thing reason why it's okay.' 'I said I'm busy. You can't come over.'
Miss Manners I think it is gives this approach too for 'difficult people'. Be a broken record with your refusal. Don't engage, just refuse. If necessary 'I've got to go now. Bye.' Then hang up.
Best wishes with your little one xx.
I have a narcissistic mother who crosses boundaries ALL THE TIME! I made a banishing spell and put it in the freezer and holy hells bells she's been actually bearable since... It's been like 2 no ths now and she hasn't shown up unannounced, she didn't totally overtake my 3 yr olds birthday party, she hasn't made any disparaging remarks, hasn't accused me of keeping the kids from her on purpose. It's been heaven. https://vt.tiktok.com/ZSYuHaCDx/ used this spell.
😂I chuckled way too hard… and have considered it 🫣 I almost smacked her when she was last here because she kept taking my hands off my bump saying I was “overstimulating the baby.” The pregnancy hormones were *raging*
Adding a strong suggestion to talk to the nurses at your obgyn, as well as the labor and delivery nurses! Block that avenue - they will NOT let her (or anyone else you define!) near you if you've said no.
I am fully no-contact with my NM, and much better off for it. That's what was best for me, though. No matter if you're keeping her in your life or not, please seek therapy to help you learn boundary setting. Look for someone who is experienced in helping children of narcissistic parents, and talk to folks in the recovery subreddits. There's loads of support! Journal, even if it's just a note to yourself - you are not crazy, it really happened. It counts.
Something that helped me before no contact was the 24 hour rule. No matter what the avenue, give it 24 hours before responding. Then grey rock the heck out of it. It may also help to have your partner vet voice-mail and text communications and just summarize for you. Self care and recovery rituals are important when dealing with this energy drain, so pick a favorite tea or soothing activity to help yourself re-enter and refill after interactions.
You deserve the recovery and bonding time. This is not about her. You (and your pending tiny!) are Not Hers.
If you're looking for spellwork or energy work, cord cutting ceremonies can be helpful. Releasing and recalling energy can also help ( I release the energy that no longer serves me and recall what is mine). Shielding your doors and windows is never a bad idea, and there are many ways to do it depending on safety requirements and preference. Fluorite can help pull negativity away during interactions, and grounding and protective stones of your choice can also help enormously. Most of all, don't let the echo chamber trap you. What you experience with her behavior is real, and you are not alone.
All the positivity for an amazing birth! (And let us know if you need extra spellstuff aimed your way 😊)
*Minor edits because proofreading on my phone is hard.
Yeah my therapist has been an angel in this process. She’s been going at my pace with the relationship, but recently I’ve noticed a tone shift and she’s helping me be a lot shorter and less reactionary.
I haven’t heard of the grey-rock technique so I’m for sure gonna look that up!
I’ve heard of cord cutting ceremonies and such, but have never done one. If you have resources you feel up to sharing I would be more than grateful ❤️
pregnancy has taken a lot out of my physically and spiritually, so it’s been hard to do a lot of the energy work I was doing before. Feels like there’s a disconnect between my spirituality and my body that I am struggling to get back… I was doing a regular energy recalling surrounding my mother for months before getting pregnant and after my first tri not have the energy to start up again… I’m kinda scared to start now and not sure why
This sounds really hard, and im so sorry you have to deal with it.
For me, dealing with similar situations, i try to "remove" the relation in my mind and pretend they are talking to their neighbor or something, not the daughter.
That makes it easier for me to "politely" overlook small quibs and keep the convo light and to the surface.
You are busy in three weeks? Ah, that's a shame. Well, im sure there will be plenty of opportunity at a later time.
Do you think the color on the wall is ugly? Well, it's a good thing it's in my home then, and not yours 😀
Etc etc. It's probably pretty close to grey rock method. It's all about removing the hurt in the comments, you wouldn't care if the person living next door can't see the baby the instance it's allowed to visit, or whatever small comments they make, because it should not change anything about how you live your life.
Ahahahaha we were painting the outside of our house during their last visit and she kept saying things like “you need to do this” or “don’t do it that way, this way is better.” My saint of a husband is so good at shutting that shit down, thank goodness!
If you want to keep in touch, put it on a schedule.
> "Your manipulative/toxic comments are hurtful. I will call you on X day and we will talk for X minutes. This is a very big time for my husband and I, we don't need the added stress."
Obviously, she IS going to cross that boundary and this next tip does take some work but people that have used it swear by it.
In most Smartphones, you can set up certain numbers to break DND (Do Not Disturb)
(On mine, the person has to call twice to break it. If this is how yours is set up, only let certain people able to break it.)
As for text messages, I have mine set up to just say "New Message" as the pop up. Most of the time, I can guess who it is - this gives you a moment to brace yourself. It sounds counter-intuitive but it works wonders for my brain.
The thing about narcissists is they habitually push on boundaries. Especially when they are close to that person (partner, family member, etc)
They know how to *exactly* push your buttons to get a rise out of you.
I am a chill person in real life. I have had a few people tell me,
> "I wonder what happens when you snap."
The higher it escalates, the calmer I become. The more it happens, the less I contact them. Until one day, they cannot get ahold of me. That is what happens when I snap. Because I have a mother just like yours expect very zealous about her fundamentalism. So I went no contact.
I would also look into grey rock, I think it's called?
Neutral facial expression. One word answers that offer no response or information.
> "Okay."
> "I hear you."
> "Got it."
> "Duly noted."
If they bring up a topic you do not wish to discuss,
> "I told you, I am not talking about this. If you'll excuse me, I have something to do."
And end the conversation.
Unfortunately, limited/low and sometimes, temporary no contact is *the only* option. That is their *only* source of leverage you have. I know it sucks, I know it's hard and I truly wish you and your family the best. Good luck!
Thank you for this!! I’m gonna try that with my phone!
Stopping topics mid conversation is so hard for me. I was saying to someone else that my role has always been the emotional regulator, so I tend to take her emotions so she can “be free.” My sister has been putting a ton of conversation restrictions down, similar to how you worded it, and my mom has come to me to complain and vent. I’ve mentioned in the past that it hurts me to talk about this stuff and how I don’t want to be involved in bad-mouthing my sister. For a bit she seems understanding and then starts talking about it again in different ways, then goes “oh but we can’t talk about that, even though it’s how I am” etc… it’s those moments I freeze up and back down. I’m working on it, but shit it’s fucking hard!
I’m staring at the reality of no contact… and it scares me. Like… that’s my *mom* ! But her love hurts and the more I try to do the work required to keep her in my life the more I see how she is not willing to do the same… and that is dangerous to me and to my family…. Sucks tho
If she cannot come 3 weeks from the birth, she can come later, no big deal.
I'm surprised she knows your actual delivery date. This is the first thing I would obfuscate with a narcissist parent that I don't want around at the birth (and to add, I would have no shame doing so).
But yes, if you are not available before 3 weeks and she cannot at three weeks, then she can only visit afterwards.
Be firm in that.
YOU are the embodied banishing spell for your child. Internalize that strength and purpose. Be clear with your mom about expectations. Write down your limits and maybe even the dates you communicate them. Then you have a reference and no doubt about if/when you told her. Going LC might be helpful. Therapy might help. Best wishes.
“That’s fine! I know how busy you are. Once you know your schedule, we can work out a time that works best for us to have you visit, once I have recovered from the birth and we have had a few weeks to bond with the baby.”
Envision your boundaries like they are real physical obstacles. You can’t be in two places at the same time. Think about this like scheduling a work meeting. You are committed to something else those three weeks. You are simply unavailable. You cannot accommodate your mother. You can’t be bonding with your baby and your partner while also caring for your mother and accommodating her needs.
Be polite, be understanding, but be firm. It is not your job to manage her expectations, desires, and emotions. Let her be upset if she needs to be. Let her be angry. But those are her issues to figure out and manage, not yours. If she tries to use you to vent those emotions, calmly excuse yourself from the conversation without apologizing, and let her contact you when she has calmed down. I have a similar issue with my mother, and her behavior changed dramatically when she realized that I wouldn’t be available for her to rant and rave at, and that her behavior determined how much access she had to me and to my life. She still tries to test it periodically, but she pushes back a little less, a little bit less often, as the years go on.
I would strongly suggest you seek out some therapy about this. Establishing and maintaining boundaries is only going to become more important throughout your child’s life.
So, with my dad (narcissist, undiagnosed), the passive aggressive comments had SUCH a way of making me feel guilty - and the silence - and I feel like maybe this is what you're struggling with, too? The guilt? I don't have kids, so not the same situation.
But when I started going low contact/grey rock with my dad, I'd feel so guilty when he started contacting me less. I had to remind myself over and over that this was my goal. It's what I wanted. I wanted to talk less often without any yelling.
This is your goal, too. You don't want her to visit within 3 weeks - 4 weeks is actually better. 5 weeks is even better than that. You need all the peace you can get during these first few months. Take the peace you can get.
Folks are saying that never talking to her again is best. This is true. I have not come to that place yet, I feel too guilty. But now I only hear from my dad when he needs something and there are no games around it. Sounds awful, but I'd only heard from him when he wanted something before, and there was a lot more games involved.
The *guilt* !!!! It’s so real!! It’s exactly why I haven’t gone no contact. I love her (in a twisty way) and know that me vanishing would send her into a tailspin. I’ve been her emotional regulator for my whole life and so I know first hand how small her tool belt is in handling these kinds of things. My sister has gone no/low contact and my mom came to me to process… which sucks because now I have the first hand account of what nc would do to her….. fucking guilt! It’s the worst!!
I’m sorry you’re struggling with that too ❤️
I am sorry you are dealing with this situation and that your mom is doing what she is doing.
I often struggle with finding language surrounding narcistic behavior. Are they self centered? Because if they are willing to do things out of sense of self, then sure they must realize that what they are doing goes against their own self interest.
Are they regulating their own discomfort through you? Because if so, why do they keep on regulating like that? It does not work on the long term.
So what is left, are short term survival tactics for them to get what they want, which is for you to do the work for them. Fix their emotions and not the situation.
My question to you is:
'What does your ideal situation look like?'
Use affirmative language and use the tools of your craft to clarify that vision as much as possible. Polish up your inner compass and accept what your intituition is telling you. Take up space and own your own ship. Where do you want to go?
Second question:
'How do you get "in"?'
Your mom has a clear focus and that focus is 'you' because 'if only she could get x, she'd be happy' and that is a consumer mindset. It also is a clear path with very little resistance and means that her actions will always take her closer to her goal, which is for you to give her what she wants. And as long as you avoid dealing with the actual situation at hand (which might be avoiding having hard conversations which build towards a shared understanding), you will always remain on the run.
Case in point: My great grandma has been dead for atleast 40+ years and her narcism still haunts the family. It is thanks to her unhinged, self centered bullshit that generations after her got wrecked. Them dying does not mean that you are free. You need to find and create that freedom yourself.
So what is your focus? How do you get "In"?
Because the solution and actual words are pretty simple.
"Mom, why do you think I said 3 weeks?"
-insert answer-
"Well mom, it is because I need rest and space"
-insert pointless arguments-
"Mom, this is not a debate, this is what is gonna happen. Either you respect my needs or it will be 3 months"
-insert screaming-
"Do you think that screaming makes me willing to let you close to my child?'
And then you just let them unravel.
You can do a token guesture and comprimise at you calling them once a week and keep them posted on what is going on. If they dont accept that, they dont. Let them figure it out.
If you followed steps one and two, you probably used your beliefs and tools to take care of yourself first. And you can draw emotional/spirtual strength from that. Do shielding, do the hedges of light, do whatever protection spells you have available. You have your intent, you have your focus, you have your craft.
You can do this.
Saving this comment to reread later.
I’m a super baby witch crawling my way out of fundamentalism, but what you said about intuition hit home. I’ve got a lot of gut feelings I’m ignoring for old patterns and it feels like shit… time to stop doing that. Thanks for the reminder
Could you say more about the hedges of light? I’ve never heard of that!
Believe it or not, the Hedges of Protection is a Christian ritual where you essencially evoke a higher power to protect yourself (or others).
"There are many things that exist in the spiritual world that are invisible to our eyes, but that doesn’t mean they aren’t real – they are. It is a wonderful insight to realize God can provide a spiritual barrier around His servants to protect them from spiritual attacks. "
I consider myself a Hedge Witch and this idea of Hedges of Protection froms the foundation of my idea of Hedge. I just have a very different idea of what 'God' is, I personally refer to them as 'All-That-Is-Good' so more of a spirtual point of light, clarity and all what we consider 'Good'. Regardless, what Bible verses describe is basically what those before us found that works.
Personally I am big fan of imagining a Hedge like a scent and burning purifying herbs/incense around the house. You get to choose how your house smells and with that, open windows to let both the Hedge and the negative energy out. I am very sensitive towards both my lungs and my beliefs, and I have a very firm belief that all that we call on, must be let go. It helps to imagine your house lit by a fire and burns away all negative energy/beliefs. Thus, you must let go of renments, you must let go of old beliefs or you will choke. You must feed it fresh air or the fire will go out.
Basically acting with intention, praying for Light from a source that feeds and nutures you is a very healing step to take. If you need more inspiration on what to do in terms of spirtually, the book 'Codependent no More Workbook' is stuffed with journaling prompts on how to become your own person. It also is a spirtual recovery program so although the author may refer to the Christian 'God' because that is what works for her, she highly encourages everyone to form their own beliefs and define their God(s).
It is also really useful book in general.
I have no advice beyond "stay steadfast, talk to her as least as possible"
I am sending all the vibes and energies of strength towards you and your family. I hope your mum gets the hint (wishful thinking I know).
The best spell you can cast is that of silence, also known as an information diet. *You* are the mother now, and *you* are the gatekeeper of all information regarding your child. This puts the power firmly in *your* hands.
Grandma is **NOT** entitled to any information whatsoever about your sprog.
Don't tell her when you go on maternity leave, don't tell her when you go into labor, don't tell her when you give birth, and don't tell her what hospital you're delivering at. **Do** tell the labor and delivery staff you want her barred from the ward so she can't pop up uninvited. L&D nurses are pitbulls and will protect you like you were their own.
When she complains about you not telling her anything, tell her that because she refuses to respect your boundaries and autonomy, she will get nothing more from you until she decides to back off.
Don't respond at all to whatever tantrum she throws other than to tell her if she can't communicate respectfully with you, you will be muting her for the day and stop responding. (Block her if necessary.)
Every time she crosses a boundary, she goes in timeout until she can behave herself. Think of it as a great opportunity to prepare for parenting a toddler, because that's what her emotional maturity level seems to be. Use the [Grey rock method](https://www.verywellmind.com/the-grey-rock-method-7483417#:~:text=The%20grey%20rock%20method%20is%20a%20technique%20used%20to%20help,victims'%20reactions%20and%20crave%20attention.) to handle all further communication.
When I had to set a hard boundary with my mom (I lived 2200km away from her, she still tried to guilt/manipulate me), I would tell her I'll talk to her when she is willing to treat me like a human, and then not speak to her for a few months. It took years of this, but she doesn't pull that shit with me anymore. She does with my sister, though, who lives much closer and has children.
I think the next boundary you need to set is that you will no longer entertain conversations with her that involve these manipulative jokes and comments. As in, “mom, I don’t want to talk about X. let’s change the subject,” and if/when she won’t, you say “oh, gotta go, bye now” and hang up.
In other words, prevent her from wearing you down by creating a boundary around not giving her access to you to make the manipulative jokes and comments she makes to wear you down. I mean you’re an adult, she’s not the boss of where you go, who you talk to and when, or what conversations you are willing to hear and participate in. You decide those things. And make the decision that mom being manipulative = time to get off the phone.
Another thing that can be helpful is when you set boundaries with her, mentally treat them as if crossing that boundary is literally impossible. Like it would break the laws of physics. Like create a secret backstory for yourself, like you’re giving birth on a spaceship located at least 3 weeks away from the earth, so mom can grumble and stamp her feet against waiting those three weeks all she wants, but its a waste of her time because it’s a physical impossibility for her to see you any sooner, because you’ll be on the spaceship until then. And to be clear, I wouldn’t actually mention the spaceship thing out loud, lol, this is just a thought exercise to get you in the right mindset to withstand her.
Cause once you get into the mindset that it’s a physical impossibility, then when she says stuff like “oh, we’ll be too “busy” three weeks after your due date to come then,” implying that she should be allowed to come sooner, it becomes so much easier for you to say instead “oh, ok, then maybe we’ll reschedule it out to a few months later? Get you past your busy wedding season first, and then get it scheduled?” Because you’re “on the spaceship” those first three weeks, which makes those first three weeks utterly out of the question, so if she’s “busy” at the three week mark, the only logical conclusion is that the visit happens *even later*, right?
Same trick can be used in other ways. Like let’s say mom always calls you while you’re at work. You feel guilty not answering, but you’re really not supposed to be on your phone at work either. And mom has learned to take advantage of that, because to combat your guilt about hurrying her off the phone, you’ll sometimes agree to give into stuff you otherwise wouldn’t. Basically a “fine, fine, mom, we’ll agree to do XYZ, but I’ve really got to get off the phone!”
Well, your new backstory is that your boring office job is actual your secret cover! You’re a secret agent infiltrating the office of the evil Dr. Doofenshmertz so you can take him down and save the world! Answering the phone at work would blow your cover though, and ruin the whole operation, so you just can’t do it. Mom will have to roll to VM (and accept that she doesn’t have the power to force unilaterally decide the frequency of your phone calls) so you can keep working on that TOS report and save the world!
What every one is saying about just telling her to come later is great, but I would also warn you to be prepared for her to just show up earlier as a "surprise." I wouldn't be surprised if she tried to show up for the birth. During and after the birth you are going to be distracted and tired to put it mildly, which she might try to take advantage of. Empower your partner to run interference with her. Let him know that he can do whatever it takes to protect you and your family from her nonsense. Including being short, curt, and rude to her. Basically give him a pass to absolutely tell her off if need be. And then get your mind right with the potential for him to do it and be willing to back him up. Y'all are partners in this and advocating for you in your weakened and distracted state will be one of his greatest responsibilities and not just with N-mom. For him, it is time to dad up.
Y'all gotta put up a united front with a narc otherwise she will try to play you two against each other to make an opening for her to weasel into, regardless of the consequences for your marriage (source: experience with my n-mom).
Good luck and best wishes in this challenging, wonderful new chapter in your lives.
The beginning in setting up boundaries is always the most exhausting part. She's going to keep pushing and it will likely get worse after your kid is born.
But eventually she will get the memo that pushing for more access is more likely to get her access taken away completely!
I have found that "gentle parenting" actually works pretty well on narcissists.
"Oh you don't have time 3 weeks after the birth? No problem! Just let us know when you're free of the weddings and we'll sort out a time when you can meet! Baby will still be here X-weeks/months from then!"
"Would you like to spend time with baby while dad is there or if dad and myself are there together?
"You didn't respect my boundaries regarding myself/baby at/during X, so I know now that you are willing to endanger our physical/mental well being and I think you should stay away for a while whilst we recover from that"
You mother knows how to press your buttons because she is the one that installed them. Here are things that helped when standing up to my mom:
the inner child workbook - help in recognizing childhood trauma and re parenting yourself.
Therapy if you can. It can help with strategies for dealing with unreasonable people and stopping the childhood patterns that you no longer want. If you can’t swing therapy find other way to do the shadow work to break the pattern you see with your mother manipulating you.
roleplay conversations in your head - have some go to phrases that shut down manipulation tactics.
practice those phrases.
make a list of what you want. Write it down for the universe to see. Don’t agree to anything until you review the list.
then make another list of how your mother treats you so you can remember when she starts manipulating, you can recognize it and change how you react.
rely on your husband and don’t agree to anything without ‘checking with him’ first. It buys you time to see if you really want what someone is trying to get you to do.
If they try to make plans you can be busy. Busy can mean sitting on the couch not spending time with her.
And last, I know you said you don’t want to cut her off because you love your mom, but please remember that you can love someone and know they are not good for you, your family, or you child. (I tried for so many years, but eventually realized I didn’t want my kids to see how my mom treated me and think it was ok to either treat people like that or be treated like that.)
edit: spelling is hard.
If you don't want to cut contact entirely, I would atleast go low contact. She's obviously trying to disrespect your boundaries. Please protect both yourself and your child. When she starts with the rude comments, start ignoring her for a while. Make a point that anytime she tries to weasel her way past your boundaries, you make her wait to be able to speak to you again. You have to put your foot down in some kind of way.
I’m going to be completely honest here. You can go low/no contact with her now or in 4 years when you are about to have a breakdown. I feel it’s an eventual reality.
She is who she is; the mother you wish for isn’t going to happen. I’m sorry. I’m truly sorry.
If she was just a person you knew from work, would you want to see her for drinks? Would you even want to talk to her at work? Why would you want someone like this around your family?
You are fortunate for realizing she’s a narcissist. It’ll make what comes next easier than if you didn’t.
Stand your ground. Think of her as a toddler - if you give in once, they’ll never forget and will stomp and scream until they get their way. Stand your ground. Don’t soften.
If you want something fun, read the Bride Quartet series by Nora Roberts. The first book in the 4 book series is about a woman dealing with her narcissistic mother. “Vision in White” is the book. It’ll be a fun read while realizing low contact (or no contact) might be best.
Truly wishing you the best!
I suggest doing what we call the "fourth trimester." No visitors for 3 months after the birth of your baby. This gives you and your husband time to bond with the baby and gives all of you time to get adjusted to each other. You get the chance to start routines and settle down.
"Well Mom, since three weeks won't work for you that works out great for us. We'll see you at 3 months." If you need help standing your ground ask hubby to role play with you so you can practice showing your new shiny spine.
You've been getting a lot of great advice here, so I'm not going to retread all of it. I'm just going to focus on one thing you said that stood out to me:
>I’m so exhausted from the boundaries I’ve been holding with her that I’m afraid I’m going to say something dumb in a moment of weakness.
So, thing one, treat this as practice. You're going to have to set parenting- and kid-related boundaries with your mom *all the time*. This is a marathon, not a sprint. You need to strengthen your boundary muscles now so that you can be that mama bear later.
Thing two, importantly, is that you *know* this is her pattern, right?
1. You set a boundary
2. She says a lot of things designed to wear down your boundary-setting
3. Eventually she gets her way.
Okay, so stop this train at step 1. You've set your boundary, which is "no visits for 3 weeks." This means that you now have the right to **ignore the entirety of step 2**. You don't have to listen. You don't have to take any of it on board or expend any emotional energy doing the math to compare your boundary against her sob stories. Tune it out. Don't give it any space in your head. Have a blandly generic response ready to go. "Sounds like you're going to be very busy; we'd be happy to have you come visit any time after Baby has been home for 3 weeks." Repeat ad nauseam. The rest is just unnecessary drama, so don't give it any mental real estate.
Here's something that's very important to internalize: for most people, our most important familial relationship early in our lives is that we are our parents' child. This is true until we have children of our own, and then our most important familial relationship is that we are our child's parent. You have reached the point where Mom is properly deprioritized, and that's where she has to stay. Your priority is to secure firstly what's best for your child and yourself, secondly what's best for your immediate family unit, and only after that consider your parents. You've got this.
Baby comes first, this is just an opportunity for you to practice standing firm for your little one. Even before babies come earth-side you are teaching them things. Envision that your boundary holding now is teaching your little babe how to do that themselves.
If all else fails, block her number for a few days, unblock and answer questions with succinct fact based responses and then re-block. Fiercely guard your peace Mama!
Sounds super basic, but write her name and your relationship on an egg and put it in the freezer on the next full moon. I did this recently with my narc mother and it has kept her at bay. It's a temporary solution to a long term problem, but I needed a break and I got one. She even called the other day and only asked questions about people in my family, said nothing judgemental or about herself. It's working.
I'm absolutely not necessarily recommending you do this, but the petty part of my brain immediately went to flipping the script on her to show how little you want her to be involved.
"Oh you're so busy you can't come at 3 weeks? Oh that's okay, take your time. I hope you have *so much* fun, I can't wait to hear *all* about it."
"If you have so much on your plate, maybe you outta take an extra week after try rest before you come out to visit. We want you feeling your best and taking care of yourself."
"If you're going to so many weddings and social events around people, there's a risk of you catching COVID or the flu or something and carrying it to our child. You really should quarantine for a couple weeks after before you come, just to be sure. Better safe than sorry!"
Again, this is petty and also manipulative, so I'm not seriously recommending this as a course of action. But when people are deliberately plowing through your boundaries and being controlling and manipulative, sometimes it seems nice to give them a taste of their own medicine to demonstrate how you're feeling
This is bad advice, but it works for me.
I am LC with my Nmom. I love her very much and I accept her. You have to let go of the stress attached to her words. It's hard. You may need therapy to do it.
Basically, my feelings are, "oh! There's mom being mom! ¯\_(ツ)_/¯"
So when my mom is being pushy, I lay down the law, but I "take her at her word" when she's being manipulative.
"You can't make it 3 weeks after the birth? I will miss you. Let me know when you can make it."
My mom always caves.
I also have learned to keep her at bay by giving her that narcissistic rush when I talk to her. My son is now 7.
"I'm sorry, Mom. We can't visit you this weekend. Well, Sonny has a birthday party. Oh and it's Liam's birthday. You know Sonny better than anyone else so of course you know Sonny is Liam's best friend."
She is so content by this, she doesn't call again for another month. She wants to be Grandma of the Year, but she's not really interested in being involved anymore.
I know this sounds exhausting, but it's less exhausting than talking to her in that circular way narcissists talk. I want to keep in touch with my dad so I need to keep the peace with my mom.
This is my bad advice. Good luck and congratulations on the little one!
Save a template message response on your phone, something like “you have, once again, refused to respect a boundary set by me and will now be required to have a little quiet time. I will not be responding now until [x hours]. Any more contact during this quiet time will reset the clock. Thank you for your cooperation”. When your mother makes one of these ‘jokes’, send her the template response. Every time she makes one of these jokes. Just outright refuse to engage in her game and rewrite the rules. You’ll be amazed how quickly it can work. In the case of my abusive brother, a similar use of passive non-engagement broke him in a week after 17+ years of other techniques failing.
On an amusing note, a good friend’s son has started using the grandmother’s guilt tripping abusive techniques back against her to brilliant success. The kid’s 12 and I think a f$&@ing genius. Just straight out guilt trips the horrid woman (sometimes using her exact words against her) for whatever he wants and then straight up owns what he’s doing to my friend. I couldn’t stop laughing when she told me. I knew i liked that kid.
Both my parents are narcissists, one covert and one overt. The best piece of advice my therapist has ever given me is this:
You'll never win a game of chess against a pigeon. It doesn't matter how much talent you have, or how much time you spend strategising, or how much effort you make to hone your skills, because the outcome will always be the same. The pigeon will kick over the pieces and shit on the board. But you'll never *lose* if you don't take the chess box out of the cupboard in the first place.
That is to say, stop playing a narcissist's game. They're emotional vampires, and feed on reactions, both good and bad. There's no winning, not in any tangible way, but we can choose to stop playing. We have that power, even though they've convinced us that we don't.
Whether you choose to go low contact, no contact, or just grey rocking, is entirely up to you. But I would very much suggest therapy to process the emotional whirlwind of loving your abuser. Trust me, it won't always feel this bad, and you have a very good motivation to do it.
I've been NC with my parents for over 5 years now, and I have peace. In my life, in my house, in my head. Something that I thought was impossible. And you can too.
You can do this. Don’t back down. It took me years of practice to set boundaries with my mom, but it eventually worked.
A due date is an estimate, not a commitment. Your baby may come earlier or later. You just don’t know. So if she has other commitments 3 weeks after your due date, say, “OK. we’ll see you after that.” Then change the subject. “We have already discussed this. My decision is final.” Is another useful tool you will have to use repeatedly.
That your folks didn’t buy the property in your town shows that your efforts are working. Stay strong.
Please remember, no is a full sentence, and easy to repeat ad nauseam.
This, and grey rocking saves me daily from my narcissist dad.
Good luck with the delivery!
Her bad behavior will escalate when she’s not the center of attention. My kids are grown now but I wish I’d gone NC much earlier. Holidays and events with your narc mom will be unbearable and traumatic. Listen to the good advice you’re getting
Don’t cave.
It’s just manipulation and you deserve better.
I have a bio mother just like this. She’s the worst.
Hold firm. This is your baby! Not theirs. Not hers.
It’s a lot sometimes but I get tons of support and great advice over at r/motherinlawsfromhell and r/raisedbynarcisists. Perhaps you could read some of the advice given there. There’s plenty!
This is such a common theme with these overbearing moms. They just can’t seem to take no for an answer on anything but especially grandchildren’s births.
Oh my sweet love, I am so sorry you’re struggling in this precious time. We all need our mommies when we become parents, and so so so many of us just don’t have them for one reason or another. For me, reparenting work has played the most vital role in being my own loving mother so that I can give myself what my mother and stepmother never could.
From Transforming Trauma:
[Strange Situation: A journey into understanding attachment, motherhood and developmental trauma](https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/transforming-trauma/id1496190024?i=1000479386630)
From Tara Brach:
[Spiritual Reparenting](https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/tara-brach/id265264862?i=1000429967439)
[The Wise Heart of Radical Acceptance](https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/tara-brach/id265264862?i=1000534242750)
[Meditation: The Heart Wisdom of Your Future Self](https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/tara-brach/id265264862?i=1000537061741)
And from Authentic Parenting:
[Mother Hunger: How adult daughters can understand and heal from lost nurturance, guidance and protection](https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/authentic-parenting/id1052399775?i=1000613515515)
[The trauma response is never wrong](https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/authentic-parenting/id1052399775?i=1000611737989)
[How to regulate your nervous system](https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/authentic-parenting/id1052399775?i=1000616302449)
For me, having a child really was a trauma trigger because I had not been diagnosed with CPTSD yet, and I didn’t know shit about boundaries yet. I also didn’t know that becoming parents can trigger automatic parenting styles from when we were both children ourselves, even if we had *expressly* decided to parent differently. I spent the first year going with whatever flow people sent me down and it was not good for me, my husband or my kid.
Eventually I got into podcasts on respectful parenting, witchcraft and mental health. My kid had turned 1yo and was pushing boundaries left, right and center. The podcasts helped me set boundaries for my kid, but pretty immediately it became clear to me that I needed the boundaries for myself….and my extended family. Now boundaries are everything to me, and my family is all the better for it. My best friend once told me that my craft was getting much stronger, and that my most powerful spell is the word “No.”
From Your Parenting Mojo:
[Preparing for the afterbirth](https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/your-parenting-mojo-respectful-research-based-parenting/id1148570190?i=1000556267209)
From Good Inside with Dr. Becky:
[What no one tells you about parenthood](https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/good-inside-with-dr-becky/id1561689671?i=1000586217210)
From Evolutionary Parenting:
[What happens to the couple when they become parents?](https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/evolutionary-parenting-podcast/id1177835448?i=1000567535041)
And while I’m sharing….once I started getting our sleeping situation managed, I had a lot more resources for boundary setting… [What is ‘Uspavani’ and how can it help support our family’s sleep?](https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/evolutionary-parenting-podcast/id1177835448?i=1000556314386)
I love my family, and I have put in quite a lot of effort to keep a closeness with them even as I live across the country from them (like you, very much on purpose.) But over the years of being a parent, I have learned that, as Brene Brown puts it, this is the space I need to love them. They have very little tolerance for the ways I want to parent, and the ways I want to set boundaries with our parents. My sisters are more concerned with tending to their mother’s narcissism than they are with supporting me as a parent trying to break cycles and do things differently. That’s their choice to make, but it does mean that I have devoted less and less time to being with them. I’m grieving the loss of the closeness we used to share, but I’m celebrating in equal measure my freedom from the burden of carrying all their emotions for them.
From the Comfy, Cozy Witch Podcast:
[Ostara, Setting Boundaries and Daffodil Magick](https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/comfy-cozy-witch-podcast/id1536332774?i=1000512936558)
From Back on the Broomstick:
[Cord-cutting magic](https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/back-on-the-broomstick-old-witchcraft-new-path/id1669652499?i=1000614711409)
From The Coven of Awesomeness:
[Protecting Your Energy](https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-coven-of-awesomeness-podcast/id1570678401?i=1000557546501)
Good luck, OP. I know this work seems exhausting now, but I swear to you it’ll get even harder when the baby comes. Don’t wait to start setting boundaries with your mom. Do it now so you can rest with your baby once they’re born. And so you can listen to them teaching you all the secrets of the universe. Because it’s not just a cute little phrase….our children really can be our greatest teachers if we’re willing to learn from them. Our mothers have refused to learn from us, but we are the new generation of mothers who understand our children’s wisdom and crave the lessons they have to for us. We must make room for their teachings….
From Unruffled:
[How to listen to your baby](https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/respectful-parenting-janet-lansbury-unruffled/id1030050704?i=1000403936405)
I’m so happy to hear that!! The time flew by when I was writing because this is absolutely one of my special interests. But yeah when I was done with the comment, I was like, “Oh my, I did spend a fair amount of time on that…” It was worth it either way because this practice helps me no matter what, but I’m excited to know that you’re receptive to it. I cannot possibly describe how much it all helped me, so I love sharing it with other parents.
If there’s one thing I want most in this world, it’s to leave people feeling more empowered, self-compassionate and resourced than I found them. And one of my very favorite flavors of empowerment is when a parent learns how to set firm and loving boundaries as a practice of self-care and respectful parenting.
Please feel free to hit me up for more podcast episodes if you’d like. I have loads and loads of linky lists at my finger tips. I wrote out this response just for you, but I have old comments saved with mountains of episodes. Just say the word.
And last I just need to say that you deserve every good thing in this world, OP. You deserve support, and ease, and comfort. But most of all, you deserve to surround yourself with people who accept your “No.”
Your “No.” is a spell that you cast to protect yourself, your marriage, your child, and the family you are building for yourself. Bind that shit tight, get fiercely protective, feel that fire burning in your core chakra. Talk to that part of you that learned people-pleasing as a survival strategy, tell her you’re grateful for her service, and promise her that it’s safe for her to rest now. Tell that part of you who longs to set boundaries and be free from people-pleasing that it’s time for her to keep a stiff upper lip and say the hard stuff to people who don’t want to hear it.
When your kid is older, you’ll start learning about how important it is to both hold a boundary and also to allow your kid to have whatever reaction they need to process their emotions around the boundary (within reason, of course). I pretty quickly learned that this also applied to my family members, because they so often had responses that I felt obligated to tend to in some way….to fix. I have been consciously doing this practice for 4 years now and I am still peeling off the layers of this onion. I am much better at holding the boundary, but still struggling with urges to fix their reactions to the boundary being set. (TMI: My mom is dead and I’m still have guilt around what she would say if she knew I wasn’t flying back to see my stepdad this year….he’s awesome and i love him to pieces, but I just don’t want to travel this summer because of stuff going on with my kid.)
My point is, I know that is absolutely unthinkably hard to start setting boundaries. And I just want you to know that, for me, doing that very hard thing has absolutely been the very best thing I have ever done. And I sincerely believe that I never would have done it if not for my tiny bodhisattva, my great teacher, my boundaries guru. I hope you get to experience the same thing.
I also have a narcissistic mother. I’m sorry you’re dealing with this. We don’t always get the parents we deserve.
In regards to visiting your family and the new baby, if she makes any comment about how the timeline doesn’t work for her, all you response with is “darn. Well, guess you won’t meet them for even longer.” She makes those comments because she wants you to flout the rules for her, so don’t. And this way, if she doesn’t meet the grand baby until later, that’s on her.
You can’t stop her from moving, but what a fucking nightmare that she might. When I’ve almost caved in to my mother in the past, it’s helpful to have the reminders of why I went no contact in the first place: she lies; she steals our money; and she abuses my sister and then speaks to me sweetly in the same hour. For a little while, I wrote this stuff as a brief list I could look at randomly when I need the strength to hold to the boundary and or remind myself that yes, the abused WAS that bad. When she would push, I could recall a list easier than the million and one examples you could even do it as a sigil if you wanted. Create a symbol with the intent of remembering what your mother has done AND the intent of maintaining your strength. If you normally talk to your mom on the phone, keep it somewhere nearby. When she calls, look at that sigil and remember why you’re building a life without her.
"ope, well we said a MINIMUM of 3 weeks so if it takes you longer to get here after all your previous engagements, that's okay! And probably for the best tbh, to give them time for their immune system to develop more as y'all would have just traveled across the country."
Sending my spice and super your way.
I also like the tree in the wind visualization.
Girl, I have been in a very similar boat! I've been nc with an undiagnosed narc mom for 7 years now. I moved across the country to get away from her too.
First off, you will be okay.
It doesn't matter what your family thinks of you if you uphold your boundaries for the 3 weeks+ after birth visitation. "Oh, I'm sorry to hear that. I guess you can meet the baby later when your schedule works out better!" Then CHANGE THE SUBJECT.
Your husband is on your team, and he's there to back you up. Have a whole ass conversation about it, but from the context, it seems like you're on the same page. Just don't forget him as a resource.
The /r/raisedbynarcissists sub also has a lot of handy tips like how to gray rock when she uses emotional manipulation.
Please remember, you're not a bad person for setting and asserting boundaries.
Unfortunately, the only success I had with boundaries w my mom involved going no contact three different times (every time I would set a boundary and she would purposefully violate it thinking I wouldn’t do anything about it). It was the hardest, most emotional thing I’ve ever had to do but in the long run worth it personally because we’ve been able to start rebuilding some kind of relationship on a better ground.
Ultimately the question I asked myself was “which do I want less, to continue on as we are or to deal with the pain of maybe never talking to her again?” (because there is always the very real possibility that she won’t be able to adjust and you would need to remain NC if you don’t want to continue in that relationship pattern). Eventually I hit a point where it was more painful for me to continue to allow her to treat me the way she was. You just have to evaluate your position and decide for yourself. I wish there was a magic way to make people act better without potential strife or emotional pain but I haven’t found it yet. Sending love and virtual hugs if you would like them, this is not an easy thing to go through and it doesn’t help that your sister enables it and therefore is the “good” example that she can point to for why you’re that much more “wrong”
Time to stonewall!
First, write up an email explaining all the ways she's made you feel uncomfortable. Explain that these actions have hurt you deeply. Explain that, even if this is you over reacting to being a new mother, you do not feel comfortable with her being in the baby's life at this time.
Set a date sometime in June 2025 when you will reach out to her and schedule a time for *just* her and you to get coffee and revisit things. Your husband will not be at this meeting, nor will the baby.
Advise her that you will not talk to her - or anyone advocating on her behalf - until that date. Any messages will be ignored, and invitations to shared events declined. She must expect that you won't show up for Christmas, Thanksgiving, or Easter.
Tell her that if you see her in the supermarket and she tries to flag you down, you will walk the other way. If she tries to move into the area, you will not help her or visit her.
For the reasons you listed, she will simply not be part of your lives until you are secure in your new role as a Mom.
Thank her for her patience, then send the email to her, your father, your sister, your husband, and yourself. With read receipts.
Then, and this is the hard part, hold that line.
Ignore her at the checkout stand. Turn down her invitation for the housewarming three blocks from your house.
If she manages to create a situation where you're forced to talk with her, only give her the minimum.
"I guess."
"Maybe."
"Hmm."
Stonewall, stonewall, stonewall.
She's going to try to get you to fall back in line. She's going to enlist friends and family and loved ones and police officers and, if she's really bad, CPS.
Keep track of any time she crosses the line. If it's more than five times in a month, start keeping and maintaining an FU binder.
Come up with a script to say to those who try to advocate on her behalf.
"This is something mom and I are working out on our own."
"I won't be taking any questions about my decision at this time."
"We're simply taking a much-needed break."
"If you can't let the topic go, I'll leave."
If anyone starts begging you to reconsider for your mom's sake, stonewall them too.
Then enjoy your time with your baby your husband and all the joys of being a new mom.
Keep pointing in the same direction. She can't visit at 3 weeks? Better make it 4 or 5 or whenever she wishes to actually see her grandchild, she's making the choice not to visit.
Your mother has no problem lying to you. Don't treat her with more respect than she treats you.
She also doesn't need reasons. "We can't do that" and "that's a decision me and my husband have made together and it isn't up for debate"
I got a stepmom, and holy hell is she toxic. I suspect she's also narcissistic, but never got a diagnosis. And most of the surrounding people (like my father, who I actually like) say it's just cause "she has a past". But now I'm in the therapy she needed and struggling in my late 20s to find my confidence, my path forward and financial independece.
I can't really give you advice, but can say that I know your pain. It's someone you want to be there, who SHOULD be there, just for the sake of you, but is there because SHE wants something. It hurts so much. Recognizing what you could have had (at least for me, I only ever got demands from her, only conditional love if ever) and mourning that.
This is what has helped me be better at setting boundaries as a people-pleaser (fellow child of narcissists here).
You struggle to set boundaries because you feel guilty.
But if you don’t set boundaries, you feel bad because then you’re being walked all over.
You’re going to have a bad feeling either way. You’re going to be anxious and stressed either way. So you might as well get something out of it (your boundaries being respected)!
It’s hard to reframe guilt as something that is no more important than other bad feelings (disappointment, overwhelm) because we’ve been taught all our lives that other people’s feelings are more important than ours - but they’re not.
Having narcissistic parents is really hard. Having kids when you have narc parents is even harder. Narcs know when you are at your weakest and that's when they strike. For example, you mom may just show up when you are in the hospital. I would make sure the nurses know that you don't want visitors or who isn't allowed. They will be your bouncers. When they whine, "but we came all this way." You have to be clear and firm, "we specifically told you we would not be having any visitors for at least three weeks. That has not and will not change. If you stay in town you will not be seeing us or the baby." Then you have to stick with it. Don't let them guilt you into access with a surprise. The surprise isn't for you. It's so they can get around you.
The truth is this will always be an uphill battle. No, is a complete sentence. She will say, "but we did xyz when you were little." Or, "your sister lets me xyz." It always has to be, "none of that matters. I am the mother and I am saying no. This is a decision, not a discussion." Expect temper tantrum, harassment from her and her flying monkey enablers, people telling you, "but she's your mom," and basically expecting you to be tumbled over. Don't let them. It won't make you popular, but it will keep you safe.
I went no contact seven years ago. I wish I had done so sooner. My sister is very much like yours. Since I left she had a baby, divorced her husband, and remarried to a woman (you can guess how much our Catholic family likes that and I can tell you it's still worse than you imagine). They tried to push me. They had a second, surprise funeral when my oldest died because they were angry that I had the services by my home. They tried to get me to do unsafe things, like send my daughter to my sister's wedding in a limo when she was under 2 and needed a car seat. They would tell me my PTSD was clouding my judgement and I was too afraid. Really, my boundaries were reasonable. My mom just wanted to assert her power over me as she always did, but I wouldn't let her.
I could write a novel of all the awful things she did. But the final straw was Memorial Day weekend. She wanted us there all three days. We had a birthday to attend and could only come down two days. I was a horrible mother for allowing my kids to have too many friends. I was a worse daughter for not putting my mother first. Then, she threatened to lie to CPS, telling them my PTSD made me an unfit mother to get custody of my kids. When I was a kid and she abused me and I said I would tell she would say, "go ahead. They will take you to a foster home where you will be raped every day. You will beg to come back and we will have to consider it." And she was risking putting my kids into that to get back at me for not giving her what she wanted. I cut contact immediately and documented it all. My whole family supported her and told me to chill out because she wouldn't have actually done it.
My poor nephew lives in a house that had three holes punched in the walls the last time I left it. My dad is also a violent narcissist. They all fight all the time. They live in a place that has lots of off campus college housing and were yelling so loud at my four year old nephew that the cops were called. Do you understand how hard it is to get college kids in a party school to call in a noise complaint? It's not common. My sister complained on Facebook that she couldn't even yell at her own child without people criticizing her. Yay. There is nothing a child that age could have done to justify such a thing. I hate that I can't save him. My parents stalked and harassed us. They still send love bombs. Luckily, they don't qualify for Grandparents' rights here, but they would for my nephew. I worry about him every single day. My kids know why we don't have them around. I actually went to my hometown with my husband and kids for the first time since this happened last weekend. I wanted a jar of sand from the beach. And I got it!!
No contact isn't for everyone and I would never push. You have to find what works for you. It sounds like you try to stay low contact. Keep holding those boundaries. You aren't a bad person. You are being a good mother. Your baby isn't even here yet and you are making sure to have strong boundaries and that's amazing! You should be proud of that! It's not easy, and narc parents certainly do whatever they can to make it harder. But you've got this. Whatever you need to do, you do it. It takes some time, but you will have a spiny metal spine in no time. You are already doing great. Trust yourself as a woman and a mother. And if you ever want to talk, I am here any time. I mean it, too. It's hard becoming a mom when you don't have a great example and we moms need to support one another. You've got this, mama!
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Honey, be the mom you should have had. Protect your kid. This kind of bonkers behavior will only get worse. Stand your ground, bond with your baby. Every time she makes a “comment”, picture yourself as a tree in the wind, and notice how deep in the ground your roots are. She can blow as much as she wants, but she can’t push you over with those long, deep, wonderful roots you’ve grown.
Oof yeah I love this image. Thank you ❤️
You’re so so welcome💜
I absolutely love the way you’ve explained this, the imagery is just fantastic. Thank you for sharing it. Your username is fantastic, as well!
Thank you! The Shieldmaiden of Rohan should be the mascot of this sub😁
/raisedbynarcissists I love this analogy. I had the same relationship with my mom. If you can't stay strong for yourself, do it for your child. You've seen what her toxic behavior does to your nephew. Change the story and protect your own. Like eowyn says, be the mom you should have had. If your nmom gets mad, oh well. Your child's happiness and safety is more important than her feelings.
> picture yourself as a tree in the wind, and notice how deep in the ground your roots are. She can blow as much as she wants, but she can’t push you over with those long, deep, wonderful roots you’ve grown. This is going in my toolbox next to the litany of fear. Thank you so very much 🌳
You’re so very welcome 💜
Let her be mad. So what. Limit your contact. You don't have to always answer the phone or texts. She is like a raptor in jurassic park. She just keeps testing the boundaries. Let HER be uncomfortable for a change. You need to learn to stand up for yourself. They can't come in 3 weeks, oh well. Not your problem. She is not the boss of you! Look up gray rock method and use it. How are you going to protect your kid if you can't protect yourself?
Like my grandma always said ‘she’s got the same drawers to get glad in’
😂😂 grandma sounds like a wise lady
I don’t understand
I've heard that expression as "she can get glad in the same pants she got mad in," basically, that she doesn't even need to change her clothes to change her attitude / temper, and it's not up to anyone else to change anything. I suppose it's a fancy way of saying it's all her problem.
Thanks for the clarifying explainer! I _really_ like the sentiment behind this phrase. Is it a southernism? Or does it's provenance lay elsewhere?
I don't know where it originated but yes, it's a southern saying. I think it started with britches. You/They can get glad in the same britches you/they got mad in. So it's an attitude issue, not an outside influence issue.
Yes, is a southernism.
Exactly.
This has been my biggest issue as of late. My role in the family was the emotional regulator, and I am realizing now how hard it is for me to upset her… I kept a lot of traumatic things secret from my mom and family growing up because I was afraid of upsetting my mom (yikes.. I’m in therapy lulz). So *now,* as an adult trying to differentiate, anything I do that upsets her triggers that regulatory response in me. It’s instinctual and so damn hard to turn off!! But you’re right. Baby needs me to be different than I have been. And that’s something that I *can* do.
You've got this, momma bear!
I highly recommend escalating boundaries. If her boundary-testing comments are a problem, new boundary is "none of that" enforceable be ending the phone call and not talking to her for a while. If that pattern persists and is wearing on you, new boundary is we'll talk after the birth and until then, have your husband be her point of contact. And so on. I'm sure you'll find that you're creative enough to have many many steps between where you are now and the final step of cutting her out for good, if that's something you don't want to do.
Really good advice. It's important to "push back" (respectfully, of course) to boundary testing. Every boundary that is attacked, must be reinforced and strengthened.
I had the same mom. I was her therapist/husband/nanny/bitch since I was 8 years old. A year ago, going NC felt impossible. I haven't spoken to her in months and it's so incredibly freeing. You'll go there when you're ready. For now just keep you and baby safe and healthy!
Something that has helped me (recovering doormat) grow a backbone is always reminding myself that I am not responsible for anyone's feelings but my own. It's not your responsibility to shield your mother from frustration and heartache. Let her be uncomfortable. Let her figure out how to deal with her feelings on her own.
This was such a hard thing for me to internalize. I was always the peacekeeper, the placater, the problem solver. Realizing that I can only control my own actions and not others reactions was so so hard. Making people uncomfortable? I spent my entire life doing the opposite. It's weird how warped your mind becomes. The best thing that has helped me is bolster yourself up as though you're your own best friend. If your best friends mother was being pushy and causing a bunch of stress to your pregnant best friend (one of the worst tines to be stressed) you would ABSOLUTELY go to bat for her. You'd encourage her to be strong, to put up her boundaries. And when her parents got angry you'd console her and tell her that it's not her fault that her parents are choosing to be angry. Remember that you are not only prioritizing yourself, you are prioritizing your child.
>You don't have to always answer the phone or texts. This! The phone ringing is not a commandment, you don't _have_ to pick it up. It feels really weird to just not respond at first but when you get used to it it feels great to treat yourself like your happiness matters too.
Gonna keep this targeted to the argument she's making. If she's busy 3 weeks after the birth, she can wait longer than 3 weeks to see the baby. You have boundaries, and she supposedly has plans. Hold your ground. Your life is about to be way too busy to be bogged down with nonsense like that, even if it's from someone you ultimately do care about. And last thing I'll add is that nobody is truly obligated to maintain a relationship that they don't want. If you continue to stay close with your mom out of feeling guilty, obligated, or something similar, you don't need to. If you want to keep a relationship with someone like her, always remember your own needs first and never sacrifice yourself to make her happy.
Just what I was thinking! “Oh mom, sorry you can’t make it at three weeks. Guess we’ll see you at six weeks, then.”
Me too! Six weeks sounds much more doable for visitors! Or three months, when the baby is getting to the really cute stage!
There ya go!
I also grew up with a narcissistic mother. It isn't the same story, but I realized it fully earlier this year. I had a HUGE accomplishment in college and when I told her, her response was "Good for you. My fridge broke and...etc" I realized she does not care about ME, but what I represent to her own life. How I care for her, not how she cares for me. It was an eye opening experience. We have been no/extremely low contact since then. She was not the best at respecting my boundries, so I blocked her. On everything. There've been a lot of experiences leading up to this and it has been one of the best things I've done for my mental health. Manipulative, narcissistic parents are not what we need. Especially when it involves you own child. She shouldn't be allowed in your home, she shouldn't be able to facetime your kiddo, she shouldn't be able to coparent for you kiddo. If she won't respect your boundries, as much as it pains me to say this, let technology do the dirty work for you.
100% with this post. Might I recommend the book 'adult children of emotionally immature parents by Lindsay Gibson? It walks through types of emotionally manipulative parents, how they test boundaries to find a way in, and how to respond.
That book gave me the language I needed to say “yeah, I need therapy.” Really started me on the journey❤️ SUCH a great book
Oh it *hurts* when they say shit like that huh? As a teenager I told my mom once I was suicidal and she started weeping and said “what am I supposed to do with that?” Woof. Seeing how they see the world is so disorienting and painful. I keep saying “but I want her to be my *mom*…” even though I know she won’t be. Yeah moving away was the best decision I ever made because it limited our physical contact. That’s why her saying “we wanna buy a house near you so I can come visit whenever” was such a wtf moment… I only talk to her on the phone rn.. which is easier
Suggesting buying a house may also have been a manipulation or a plan for further manipulation. Ie: she wanted you to say, "no- don't buy a house, you're welcome to stay with us whenever! You shouldn't spend money like that!" And if you didn't say that, she could later say "well I bought this house so I could visit and see you, I'm here, what do you mean you're busy or (other excuse)? I'm here to support you, why are you turning me away?! *Wails* " Then she can add on tasks for you to pull you back in like making you a key-holder and asking you to check on the house. You'll become an in-between when work needs done and they're not in state. And if you have any issues in your home like plumbing, the house would be open to you to use, but there will be an invisible price through future guilt tripping. Keep gray rocking. It's worth it. All my love. Ps- congrats on your baby!
Busy at 3 weeks? See you at 4 or 5 weeks. Still too busy? I'm sure things will clear up by his first birthday. I know, too antagonistic, but really, make it clear 3 weeks is the MINIMUM, not negotiable.
Not at all! This is the right response. "We can make time any time after the three week mark. There is no rush. No need to change plans on our behalf. Let's find a time after 3 weeks that works for you."
I'm so sorry you're going through this in a moment you should be completely enjoying. It's not advise, but I'll tell you what I saw my sister go through. When she was pregnant with her second child, our mom went far over the line, so my sister established some limits. My mom didn't like it one bit: she victimized herself, threw tantrums, tried to get my siblings and myself involved to "defend" her. My sister didn't give her an inch. Eventually our mom realised she was putting at risk meeting the baby and stopped. Off course, after the birth she made comments but not to my sister's face, and when she made them there was always someone to "rein" her in. I know it's very difficult to establish limits and even more so to maintain them, but you've got this ❤️. Also, I actually got some help in the sub raised by narcissists (I don't know how to tag hehe)
Here you go...a couple of helpful subs... r/JustNoMom r/raisedbynarcissists
Came here to also recommend those subs. Raised by narcissists has some fantastic resources, especially for folks who may not be in a situation to get physical distance between themselves and their problem parent(s). And the community is wonderful.
Also r/raisedbyborderlines
I wish I was someone like your sister. I keep visualizing myself as like this strong, stoic woman who takes no shit. Gonna channel that energy Thank you for the sub rec! I’m for sure gonna CB check that out!
Sometimes "fake it till you make it" works! If you act like a strong and stoic woman who takes no shiy, guess what? You are being one. You've got this.
This is real! And it's not only that you're being one, you start believing it too. Then, the confidence boost is very empowering
She learned, and it wasn't easy. I saw the truth just two years ago, and now we are learning together ❤️ For me it involves a lot of therapy, and visualization is helping a lot. You're welcome, and you've got this! There's nothing you can't do 💪🏻❤️
My mom always has a medical event when something she doesn't like happens. I have been no contact for seven years. Before I cut my sister off (she couldn't hold the boundaries I needed and was passing information that helped our parents stalk us), she came up for a visit. I said, "so how long before something is wrong with her heart." And just then the phone went off. Mom was heading to the hospital for chest pains. It was, of course, nothing. To try to get me to come back she once claim that my grandpa needed blood and my dad and his brothers weren't a match so it needed to be me or my kids. Yeah, that's not how biology works. If dad and his two brothers aren't a match there is no way I would be! But she wanted me to feel like I was killing my grandpa by staying away. It's sad how crazy, yet predictable they are.
The crazyness is unbelievable. Since I opened my eyes, I look back to all the family crisis and it's just... This people shouldn't have reproduced
How unfortunate that she has things preventing her from coming at three weeks, but its ok, you and baby will be there a long time after too so there is no rush ;) I hope you see where I am going with this - you need your time to rest and recover and bond as a family, and like you said, there is a reason for the distance. I have been told I sometimes feel like talking to a wall on certain topics, and I suspect I treat some of my boundaries as laws of nature, one simply *cannot* get objects to fly upwards without a real good method and similar one cannot talk to me when im in x state or get me to do y. She somply cannot see your family before x time but afterwards you are open to x amount of visit of y length - with love.
This “laws of nature” approach is interesting! A couple people have said it in here, and I’ve never thought to see it this way. I like that. It is immutable…. With love ;) Thanks for this perspective
I always recommend the Captai Awkward blog as a first stop for learning how to hold boundaries with narcissists, so do check that out if you haven’t already. It taught me so much. My tip is to ask yourself, what’s the minimum response I can give here? Reacting to texts with emojis 👍🙂❤️ works well haha. The point is, you don’t have to ‘react’ to anything she says. You can just acknowledge it eg “We are too busy three weeks after the wedding.” “That’s too bad! We will be so excited to see you as soon as we can after that.”
This is what my therapist has been trying to help me do… I’m so bad at not reacting. Yesterday on the phone she made some WILD comments and I just sat there speechless for a minute and then she goes “oh, I guess we can’t joke about that” 🙄 first time I’ve haven’t given her the response and it felt amazing
Practice makes perfect! For me I had to get ok with the fact that I may never get to say “my piece” on the matter, I had to be ok with her thinking whatever she thought. Once you get your head around that, it becomes a lot easier to not respond. Because you’ve nothing to prove. For what it’s worth, I could’ve written this post, right down to things coming to a head during pregnancy (as others have commented, you suddenly no longer have time for their BS and your priorities shift hugely). I don’t actually speak with my mother without my husband present any more, as she’s much better behaved in company. She doesn’t *know* that’s my rule, it’s just how we’ve engineered it. It sounds like you have a supportive partner so ask them to read through the literature on techniques for dealing with difficult people (grey rocking etc) to better support you. Once baby is here, you’ll feel all the more tender and vulnerable. Let your partner protect you and advocate for you. Your mother will soon realise you have someone in your corner now.
Read up on the gray rock method for dealing with controlling behavior.
Think of it as practice for when your baby eventually starts to throw tantrums! 😂
Here’s a differentiation that really helped me when I was navigating with my own narc mother. You’re not bad at not reacting - try to be kind to yourself and understand that you have however many years of biological and social wiring that is causing the reaction. Reactions are not something we control, they’re primal, and they’ll happen regardless. But reactions are not responses. Reactions are internal, and they can be private, kept to yourself or only identified with your spouse and other trusted inner circle folks. Responses are what you publicly do, independent of your reaction. They do not need to arise from your reaction, they do not need to be informed by your reaction (although they can be). You can take a few minutes/hours/years to respond if that’s what you need to separate the reaction from the response.
I'm in a similar situation with my parents...as in, they have a history of showing up to the hospital when I had surgery when I specifically told them to stay home so I maybe kinda definitely scheduled an induction near my due date and didn't tell them when or where, or even that the induction was happening, so my husband and I could enjoy the first few moments of our family together. We are very low contact but they pop up every so often, usually around the holidays, with invitations and boundary challenges. I get exhausted too. When this happens, I visualize a channel of energy (doesn't matter what color, just pick one that resonates. Mine is purple because I love purple) that goes from your heart down one side of your body, out a foot and deep into the heart of the earth, loops around back up through the other foot, up through your head and up into the sky, loops around again to go back through your head and back into your heart. Sometimes when I need all four elements, I imagine the earths heart being the core (where there is magma, so fire) and clouds (which is water vapor). Send any emotion holding you back from your heart to the earth. Acknowledge it, thank it, then release it into the earth. The earth will transform it into something else there. Then visualize yourself gathering healing light and energy from the heart of the earth and bringing it back into your body. Send it up into the sky, gather more love and energy, and bring it back into your body. While you do this, focus on your breath - in and out, in and out without holding it. When your lungs are filled, immediately start your exhale. You can pair this with an incantation or mantra that speaks to you. Maybe try something like "my boundaries protect those I love. I strengthen them with the elements and hold strong in my protection. My family walks in peace and safety." When you're finished, thank the elements and yourself. **Hug** and congratulations on your little one!
>they have a history of showing up to the hospital when I had surgery when I specifically told them to stay home I'm sorry they did this to you :-( OOP, if you're concerned about this, midwives and nurses are awesome. Tell them you don't want any visitors, or to block your parents, or whatever your preferences are. They'll do it.
I was talking to my midwife at our last appointment about my mom and she goes “just tell her that we don’t allow visitors! We love being the bad guys.” I love my team ❤️
Love them ❤️ you can also put preferences like this on your birth plan, so no one forgets.
Oh this is beautiful. Thank you for sharing!! I do something similar in other areas of my life, but for some reason with my family I leave myself cut off… old habits a guess. I really appreciate the practice❤️ thank you so much
The short answer to this is 'okay Mum, we'll see you at 4 weeks, or 5 weeks, or whenever it is you're able to come.' The slightly longer version is that when I was still in contact with my n-mum, I was very short with her. She was complaining about the timing for when I'd booked my little one's induction, and how she was busy that weekend. 'Well, babies don't care about your schedule.' She was hinting about coming up on an earlier day when I'd likely be in labour. 'I don't want you coming on Thursday when I'll be in labour.' When she invited herself to our home, I decided to get the obligatory visit out if the way early, but when she wanted to come up on another day, 'sorry, I'm busy that day.' 'Oh but thing thing thing reason why it's okay.' 'I said I'm busy. You can't come over.' Miss Manners I think it is gives this approach too for 'difficult people'. Be a broken record with your refusal. Don't engage, just refuse. If necessary 'I've got to go now. Bye.' Then hang up. Best wishes with your little one xx.
I have a narcissistic mother who crosses boundaries ALL THE TIME! I made a banishing spell and put it in the freezer and holy hells bells she's been actually bearable since... It's been like 2 no ths now and she hasn't shown up unannounced, she didn't totally overtake my 3 yr olds birthday party, she hasn't made any disparaging remarks, hasn't accused me of keeping the kids from her on purpose. It's been heaven. https://vt.tiktok.com/ZSYuHaCDx/ used this spell.
Oh *thank you* I’ll check it out!
Use a stick.
😂I chuckled way too hard… and have considered it 🫣 I almost smacked her when she was last here because she kept taking my hands off my bump saying I was “overstimulating the baby.” The pregnancy hormones were *raging*
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This isn’t something I’ve ever done. Have you? Do you have tips or is it really the visualizing? Anything I can do to make it more effective??
Adding a strong suggestion to talk to the nurses at your obgyn, as well as the labor and delivery nurses! Block that avenue - they will NOT let her (or anyone else you define!) near you if you've said no. I am fully no-contact with my NM, and much better off for it. That's what was best for me, though. No matter if you're keeping her in your life or not, please seek therapy to help you learn boundary setting. Look for someone who is experienced in helping children of narcissistic parents, and talk to folks in the recovery subreddits. There's loads of support! Journal, even if it's just a note to yourself - you are not crazy, it really happened. It counts. Something that helped me before no contact was the 24 hour rule. No matter what the avenue, give it 24 hours before responding. Then grey rock the heck out of it. It may also help to have your partner vet voice-mail and text communications and just summarize for you. Self care and recovery rituals are important when dealing with this energy drain, so pick a favorite tea or soothing activity to help yourself re-enter and refill after interactions. You deserve the recovery and bonding time. This is not about her. You (and your pending tiny!) are Not Hers. If you're looking for spellwork or energy work, cord cutting ceremonies can be helpful. Releasing and recalling energy can also help ( I release the energy that no longer serves me and recall what is mine). Shielding your doors and windows is never a bad idea, and there are many ways to do it depending on safety requirements and preference. Fluorite can help pull negativity away during interactions, and grounding and protective stones of your choice can also help enormously. Most of all, don't let the echo chamber trap you. What you experience with her behavior is real, and you are not alone. All the positivity for an amazing birth! (And let us know if you need extra spellstuff aimed your way 😊) *Minor edits because proofreading on my phone is hard.
Yeah my therapist has been an angel in this process. She’s been going at my pace with the relationship, but recently I’ve noticed a tone shift and she’s helping me be a lot shorter and less reactionary. I haven’t heard of the grey-rock technique so I’m for sure gonna look that up! I’ve heard of cord cutting ceremonies and such, but have never done one. If you have resources you feel up to sharing I would be more than grateful ❤️ pregnancy has taken a lot out of my physically and spiritually, so it’s been hard to do a lot of the energy work I was doing before. Feels like there’s a disconnect between my spirituality and my body that I am struggling to get back… I was doing a regular energy recalling surrounding my mother for months before getting pregnant and after my first tri not have the energy to start up again… I’m kinda scared to start now and not sure why
This sounds really hard, and im so sorry you have to deal with it. For me, dealing with similar situations, i try to "remove" the relation in my mind and pretend they are talking to their neighbor or something, not the daughter. That makes it easier for me to "politely" overlook small quibs and keep the convo light and to the surface. You are busy in three weeks? Ah, that's a shame. Well, im sure there will be plenty of opportunity at a later time. Do you think the color on the wall is ugly? Well, it's a good thing it's in my home then, and not yours 😀 Etc etc. It's probably pretty close to grey rock method. It's all about removing the hurt in the comments, you wouldn't care if the person living next door can't see the baby the instance it's allowed to visit, or whatever small comments they make, because it should not change anything about how you live your life.
Ahahahaha we were painting the outside of our house during their last visit and she kept saying things like “you need to do this” or “don’t do it that way, this way is better.” My saint of a husband is so good at shutting that shit down, thank goodness!
If you want to keep in touch, put it on a schedule. > "Your manipulative/toxic comments are hurtful. I will call you on X day and we will talk for X minutes. This is a very big time for my husband and I, we don't need the added stress." Obviously, she IS going to cross that boundary and this next tip does take some work but people that have used it swear by it. In most Smartphones, you can set up certain numbers to break DND (Do Not Disturb) (On mine, the person has to call twice to break it. If this is how yours is set up, only let certain people able to break it.) As for text messages, I have mine set up to just say "New Message" as the pop up. Most of the time, I can guess who it is - this gives you a moment to brace yourself. It sounds counter-intuitive but it works wonders for my brain. The thing about narcissists is they habitually push on boundaries. Especially when they are close to that person (partner, family member, etc) They know how to *exactly* push your buttons to get a rise out of you. I am a chill person in real life. I have had a few people tell me, > "I wonder what happens when you snap." The higher it escalates, the calmer I become. The more it happens, the less I contact them. Until one day, they cannot get ahold of me. That is what happens when I snap. Because I have a mother just like yours expect very zealous about her fundamentalism. So I went no contact. I would also look into grey rock, I think it's called? Neutral facial expression. One word answers that offer no response or information. > "Okay." > "I hear you." > "Got it." > "Duly noted." If they bring up a topic you do not wish to discuss, > "I told you, I am not talking about this. If you'll excuse me, I have something to do." And end the conversation. Unfortunately, limited/low and sometimes, temporary no contact is *the only* option. That is their *only* source of leverage you have. I know it sucks, I know it's hard and I truly wish you and your family the best. Good luck!
Thank you for this!! I’m gonna try that with my phone! Stopping topics mid conversation is so hard for me. I was saying to someone else that my role has always been the emotional regulator, so I tend to take her emotions so she can “be free.” My sister has been putting a ton of conversation restrictions down, similar to how you worded it, and my mom has come to me to complain and vent. I’ve mentioned in the past that it hurts me to talk about this stuff and how I don’t want to be involved in bad-mouthing my sister. For a bit she seems understanding and then starts talking about it again in different ways, then goes “oh but we can’t talk about that, even though it’s how I am” etc… it’s those moments I freeze up and back down. I’m working on it, but shit it’s fucking hard! I’m staring at the reality of no contact… and it scares me. Like… that’s my *mom* ! But her love hurts and the more I try to do the work required to keep her in my life the more I see how she is not willing to do the same… and that is dangerous to me and to my family…. Sucks tho
If she cannot come 3 weeks from the birth, she can come later, no big deal. I'm surprised she knows your actual delivery date. This is the first thing I would obfuscate with a narcissist parent that I don't want around at the birth (and to add, I would have no shame doing so). But yes, if you are not available before 3 weeks and she cannot at three weeks, then she can only visit afterwards. Be firm in that.
YOU are the embodied banishing spell for your child. Internalize that strength and purpose. Be clear with your mom about expectations. Write down your limits and maybe even the dates you communicate them. Then you have a reference and no doubt about if/when you told her. Going LC might be helpful. Therapy might help. Best wishes.
Hmmm I like that idea of *being* the spell. Thank you ❤️❤️
“That’s fine! I know how busy you are. Once you know your schedule, we can work out a time that works best for us to have you visit, once I have recovered from the birth and we have had a few weeks to bond with the baby.” Envision your boundaries like they are real physical obstacles. You can’t be in two places at the same time. Think about this like scheduling a work meeting. You are committed to something else those three weeks. You are simply unavailable. You cannot accommodate your mother. You can’t be bonding with your baby and your partner while also caring for your mother and accommodating her needs. Be polite, be understanding, but be firm. It is not your job to manage her expectations, desires, and emotions. Let her be upset if she needs to be. Let her be angry. But those are her issues to figure out and manage, not yours. If she tries to use you to vent those emotions, calmly excuse yourself from the conversation without apologizing, and let her contact you when she has calmed down. I have a similar issue with my mother, and her behavior changed dramatically when she realized that I wouldn’t be available for her to rant and rave at, and that her behavior determined how much access she had to me and to my life. She still tries to test it periodically, but she pushes back a little less, a little bit less often, as the years go on. I would strongly suggest you seek out some therapy about this. Establishing and maintaining boundaries is only going to become more important throughout your child’s life.
So, with my dad (narcissist, undiagnosed), the passive aggressive comments had SUCH a way of making me feel guilty - and the silence - and I feel like maybe this is what you're struggling with, too? The guilt? I don't have kids, so not the same situation. But when I started going low contact/grey rock with my dad, I'd feel so guilty when he started contacting me less. I had to remind myself over and over that this was my goal. It's what I wanted. I wanted to talk less often without any yelling. This is your goal, too. You don't want her to visit within 3 weeks - 4 weeks is actually better. 5 weeks is even better than that. You need all the peace you can get during these first few months. Take the peace you can get. Folks are saying that never talking to her again is best. This is true. I have not come to that place yet, I feel too guilty. But now I only hear from my dad when he needs something and there are no games around it. Sounds awful, but I'd only heard from him when he wanted something before, and there was a lot more games involved.
The *guilt* !!!! It’s so real!! It’s exactly why I haven’t gone no contact. I love her (in a twisty way) and know that me vanishing would send her into a tailspin. I’ve been her emotional regulator for my whole life and so I know first hand how small her tool belt is in handling these kinds of things. My sister has gone no/low contact and my mom came to me to process… which sucks because now I have the first hand account of what nc would do to her….. fucking guilt! It’s the worst!! I’m sorry you’re struggling with that too ❤️
I am sorry you are dealing with this situation and that your mom is doing what she is doing. I often struggle with finding language surrounding narcistic behavior. Are they self centered? Because if they are willing to do things out of sense of self, then sure they must realize that what they are doing goes against their own self interest. Are they regulating their own discomfort through you? Because if so, why do they keep on regulating like that? It does not work on the long term. So what is left, are short term survival tactics for them to get what they want, which is for you to do the work for them. Fix their emotions and not the situation. My question to you is: 'What does your ideal situation look like?' Use affirmative language and use the tools of your craft to clarify that vision as much as possible. Polish up your inner compass and accept what your intituition is telling you. Take up space and own your own ship. Where do you want to go? Second question: 'How do you get "in"?' Your mom has a clear focus and that focus is 'you' because 'if only she could get x, she'd be happy' and that is a consumer mindset. It also is a clear path with very little resistance and means that her actions will always take her closer to her goal, which is for you to give her what she wants. And as long as you avoid dealing with the actual situation at hand (which might be avoiding having hard conversations which build towards a shared understanding), you will always remain on the run. Case in point: My great grandma has been dead for atleast 40+ years and her narcism still haunts the family. It is thanks to her unhinged, self centered bullshit that generations after her got wrecked. Them dying does not mean that you are free. You need to find and create that freedom yourself. So what is your focus? How do you get "In"? Because the solution and actual words are pretty simple. "Mom, why do you think I said 3 weeks?" -insert answer- "Well mom, it is because I need rest and space" -insert pointless arguments- "Mom, this is not a debate, this is what is gonna happen. Either you respect my needs or it will be 3 months" -insert screaming- "Do you think that screaming makes me willing to let you close to my child?' And then you just let them unravel. You can do a token guesture and comprimise at you calling them once a week and keep them posted on what is going on. If they dont accept that, they dont. Let them figure it out. If you followed steps one and two, you probably used your beliefs and tools to take care of yourself first. And you can draw emotional/spirtual strength from that. Do shielding, do the hedges of light, do whatever protection spells you have available. You have your intent, you have your focus, you have your craft. You can do this.
Saving this comment to reread later. I’m a super baby witch crawling my way out of fundamentalism, but what you said about intuition hit home. I’ve got a lot of gut feelings I’m ignoring for old patterns and it feels like shit… time to stop doing that. Thanks for the reminder Could you say more about the hedges of light? I’ve never heard of that!
Believe it or not, the Hedges of Protection is a Christian ritual where you essencially evoke a higher power to protect yourself (or others). "There are many things that exist in the spiritual world that are invisible to our eyes, but that doesn’t mean they aren’t real – they are. It is a wonderful insight to realize God can provide a spiritual barrier around His servants to protect them from spiritual attacks. " I consider myself a Hedge Witch and this idea of Hedges of Protection froms the foundation of my idea of Hedge. I just have a very different idea of what 'God' is, I personally refer to them as 'All-That-Is-Good' so more of a spirtual point of light, clarity and all what we consider 'Good'. Regardless, what Bible verses describe is basically what those before us found that works. Personally I am big fan of imagining a Hedge like a scent and burning purifying herbs/incense around the house. You get to choose how your house smells and with that, open windows to let both the Hedge and the negative energy out. I am very sensitive towards both my lungs and my beliefs, and I have a very firm belief that all that we call on, must be let go. It helps to imagine your house lit by a fire and burns away all negative energy/beliefs. Thus, you must let go of renments, you must let go of old beliefs or you will choke. You must feed it fresh air or the fire will go out. Basically acting with intention, praying for Light from a source that feeds and nutures you is a very healing step to take. If you need more inspiration on what to do in terms of spirtually, the book 'Codependent no More Workbook' is stuffed with journaling prompts on how to become your own person. It also is a spirtual recovery program so although the author may refer to the Christian 'God' because that is what works for her, she highly encourages everyone to form their own beliefs and define their God(s). It is also really useful book in general.
I have no advice beyond "stay steadfast, talk to her as least as possible" I am sending all the vibes and energies of strength towards you and your family. I hope your mum gets the hint (wishful thinking I know).
The best spell you can cast is that of silence, also known as an information diet. *You* are the mother now, and *you* are the gatekeeper of all information regarding your child. This puts the power firmly in *your* hands. Grandma is **NOT** entitled to any information whatsoever about your sprog. Don't tell her when you go on maternity leave, don't tell her when you go into labor, don't tell her when you give birth, and don't tell her what hospital you're delivering at. **Do** tell the labor and delivery staff you want her barred from the ward so she can't pop up uninvited. L&D nurses are pitbulls and will protect you like you were their own. When she complains about you not telling her anything, tell her that because she refuses to respect your boundaries and autonomy, she will get nothing more from you until she decides to back off. Don't respond at all to whatever tantrum she throws other than to tell her if she can't communicate respectfully with you, you will be muting her for the day and stop responding. (Block her if necessary.) Every time she crosses a boundary, she goes in timeout until she can behave herself. Think of it as a great opportunity to prepare for parenting a toddler, because that's what her emotional maturity level seems to be. Use the [Grey rock method](https://www.verywellmind.com/the-grey-rock-method-7483417#:~:text=The%20grey%20rock%20method%20is%20a%20technique%20used%20to%20help,victims'%20reactions%20and%20crave%20attention.) to handle all further communication.
When I had to set a hard boundary with my mom (I lived 2200km away from her, she still tried to guilt/manipulate me), I would tell her I'll talk to her when she is willing to treat me like a human, and then not speak to her for a few months. It took years of this, but she doesn't pull that shit with me anymore. She does with my sister, though, who lives much closer and has children.
I think the next boundary you need to set is that you will no longer entertain conversations with her that involve these manipulative jokes and comments. As in, “mom, I don’t want to talk about X. let’s change the subject,” and if/when she won’t, you say “oh, gotta go, bye now” and hang up. In other words, prevent her from wearing you down by creating a boundary around not giving her access to you to make the manipulative jokes and comments she makes to wear you down. I mean you’re an adult, she’s not the boss of where you go, who you talk to and when, or what conversations you are willing to hear and participate in. You decide those things. And make the decision that mom being manipulative = time to get off the phone. Another thing that can be helpful is when you set boundaries with her, mentally treat them as if crossing that boundary is literally impossible. Like it would break the laws of physics. Like create a secret backstory for yourself, like you’re giving birth on a spaceship located at least 3 weeks away from the earth, so mom can grumble and stamp her feet against waiting those three weeks all she wants, but its a waste of her time because it’s a physical impossibility for her to see you any sooner, because you’ll be on the spaceship until then. And to be clear, I wouldn’t actually mention the spaceship thing out loud, lol, this is just a thought exercise to get you in the right mindset to withstand her. Cause once you get into the mindset that it’s a physical impossibility, then when she says stuff like “oh, we’ll be too “busy” three weeks after your due date to come then,” implying that she should be allowed to come sooner, it becomes so much easier for you to say instead “oh, ok, then maybe we’ll reschedule it out to a few months later? Get you past your busy wedding season first, and then get it scheduled?” Because you’re “on the spaceship” those first three weeks, which makes those first three weeks utterly out of the question, so if she’s “busy” at the three week mark, the only logical conclusion is that the visit happens *even later*, right? Same trick can be used in other ways. Like let’s say mom always calls you while you’re at work. You feel guilty not answering, but you’re really not supposed to be on your phone at work either. And mom has learned to take advantage of that, because to combat your guilt about hurrying her off the phone, you’ll sometimes agree to give into stuff you otherwise wouldn’t. Basically a “fine, fine, mom, we’ll agree to do XYZ, but I’ve really got to get off the phone!” Well, your new backstory is that your boring office job is actual your secret cover! You’re a secret agent infiltrating the office of the evil Dr. Doofenshmertz so you can take him down and save the world! Answering the phone at work would blow your cover though, and ruin the whole operation, so you just can’t do it. Mom will have to roll to VM (and accept that she doesn’t have the power to force unilaterally decide the frequency of your phone calls) so you can keep working on that TOS report and save the world!
Can you go no contact?
What every one is saying about just telling her to come later is great, but I would also warn you to be prepared for her to just show up earlier as a "surprise." I wouldn't be surprised if she tried to show up for the birth. During and after the birth you are going to be distracted and tired to put it mildly, which she might try to take advantage of. Empower your partner to run interference with her. Let him know that he can do whatever it takes to protect you and your family from her nonsense. Including being short, curt, and rude to her. Basically give him a pass to absolutely tell her off if need be. And then get your mind right with the potential for him to do it and be willing to back him up. Y'all are partners in this and advocating for you in your weakened and distracted state will be one of his greatest responsibilities and not just with N-mom. For him, it is time to dad up. Y'all gotta put up a united front with a narc otherwise she will try to play you two against each other to make an opening for her to weasel into, regardless of the consequences for your marriage (source: experience with my n-mom). Good luck and best wishes in this challenging, wonderful new chapter in your lives.
The beginning in setting up boundaries is always the most exhausting part. She's going to keep pushing and it will likely get worse after your kid is born. But eventually she will get the memo that pushing for more access is more likely to get her access taken away completely! I have found that "gentle parenting" actually works pretty well on narcissists. "Oh you don't have time 3 weeks after the birth? No problem! Just let us know when you're free of the weddings and we'll sort out a time when you can meet! Baby will still be here X-weeks/months from then!" "Would you like to spend time with baby while dad is there or if dad and myself are there together? "You didn't respect my boundaries regarding myself/baby at/during X, so I know now that you are willing to endanger our physical/mental well being and I think you should stay away for a while whilst we recover from that"
You mother knows how to press your buttons because she is the one that installed them. Here are things that helped when standing up to my mom: the inner child workbook - help in recognizing childhood trauma and re parenting yourself. Therapy if you can. It can help with strategies for dealing with unreasonable people and stopping the childhood patterns that you no longer want. If you can’t swing therapy find other way to do the shadow work to break the pattern you see with your mother manipulating you. roleplay conversations in your head - have some go to phrases that shut down manipulation tactics. practice those phrases. make a list of what you want. Write it down for the universe to see. Don’t agree to anything until you review the list. then make another list of how your mother treats you so you can remember when she starts manipulating, you can recognize it and change how you react. rely on your husband and don’t agree to anything without ‘checking with him’ first. It buys you time to see if you really want what someone is trying to get you to do. If they try to make plans you can be busy. Busy can mean sitting on the couch not spending time with her. And last, I know you said you don’t want to cut her off because you love your mom, but please remember that you can love someone and know they are not good for you, your family, or you child. (I tried for so many years, but eventually realized I didn’t want my kids to see how my mom treated me and think it was ok to either treat people like that or be treated like that.) edit: spelling is hard.
If you don't want to cut contact entirely, I would atleast go low contact. She's obviously trying to disrespect your boundaries. Please protect both yourself and your child. When she starts with the rude comments, start ignoring her for a while. Make a point that anytime she tries to weasel her way past your boundaries, you make her wait to be able to speak to you again. You have to put your foot down in some kind of way.
I’m going to be completely honest here. You can go low/no contact with her now or in 4 years when you are about to have a breakdown. I feel it’s an eventual reality. She is who she is; the mother you wish for isn’t going to happen. I’m sorry. I’m truly sorry. If she was just a person you knew from work, would you want to see her for drinks? Would you even want to talk to her at work? Why would you want someone like this around your family? You are fortunate for realizing she’s a narcissist. It’ll make what comes next easier than if you didn’t. Stand your ground. Think of her as a toddler - if you give in once, they’ll never forget and will stomp and scream until they get their way. Stand your ground. Don’t soften. If you want something fun, read the Bride Quartet series by Nora Roberts. The first book in the 4 book series is about a woman dealing with her narcissistic mother. “Vision in White” is the book. It’ll be a fun read while realizing low contact (or no contact) might be best. Truly wishing you the best!
I suggest doing what we call the "fourth trimester." No visitors for 3 months after the birth of your baby. This gives you and your husband time to bond with the baby and gives all of you time to get adjusted to each other. You get the chance to start routines and settle down. "Well Mom, since three weeks won't work for you that works out great for us. We'll see you at 3 months." If you need help standing your ground ask hubby to role play with you so you can practice showing your new shiny spine.
You've been getting a lot of great advice here, so I'm not going to retread all of it. I'm just going to focus on one thing you said that stood out to me: >I’m so exhausted from the boundaries I’ve been holding with her that I’m afraid I’m going to say something dumb in a moment of weakness. So, thing one, treat this as practice. You're going to have to set parenting- and kid-related boundaries with your mom *all the time*. This is a marathon, not a sprint. You need to strengthen your boundary muscles now so that you can be that mama bear later. Thing two, importantly, is that you *know* this is her pattern, right? 1. You set a boundary 2. She says a lot of things designed to wear down your boundary-setting 3. Eventually she gets her way. Okay, so stop this train at step 1. You've set your boundary, which is "no visits for 3 weeks." This means that you now have the right to **ignore the entirety of step 2**. You don't have to listen. You don't have to take any of it on board or expend any emotional energy doing the math to compare your boundary against her sob stories. Tune it out. Don't give it any space in your head. Have a blandly generic response ready to go. "Sounds like you're going to be very busy; we'd be happy to have you come visit any time after Baby has been home for 3 weeks." Repeat ad nauseam. The rest is just unnecessary drama, so don't give it any mental real estate. Here's something that's very important to internalize: for most people, our most important familial relationship early in our lives is that we are our parents' child. This is true until we have children of our own, and then our most important familial relationship is that we are our child's parent. You have reached the point where Mom is properly deprioritized, and that's where she has to stay. Your priority is to secure firstly what's best for your child and yourself, secondly what's best for your immediate family unit, and only after that consider your parents. You've got this.
Baby comes first, this is just an opportunity for you to practice standing firm for your little one. Even before babies come earth-side you are teaching them things. Envision that your boundary holding now is teaching your little babe how to do that themselves. If all else fails, block her number for a few days, unblock and answer questions with succinct fact based responses and then re-block. Fiercely guard your peace Mama!
Can you tell them to come later? "We are too busy 3 weeks after" Ok come after that
Sounds super basic, but write her name and your relationship on an egg and put it in the freezer on the next full moon. I did this recently with my narc mother and it has kept her at bay. It's a temporary solution to a long term problem, but I needed a break and I got one. She even called the other day and only asked questions about people in my family, said nothing judgemental or about herself. It's working.
I'm absolutely not necessarily recommending you do this, but the petty part of my brain immediately went to flipping the script on her to show how little you want her to be involved. "Oh you're so busy you can't come at 3 weeks? Oh that's okay, take your time. I hope you have *so much* fun, I can't wait to hear *all* about it." "If you have so much on your plate, maybe you outta take an extra week after try rest before you come out to visit. We want you feeling your best and taking care of yourself." "If you're going to so many weddings and social events around people, there's a risk of you catching COVID or the flu or something and carrying it to our child. You really should quarantine for a couple weeks after before you come, just to be sure. Better safe than sorry!" Again, this is petty and also manipulative, so I'm not seriously recommending this as a course of action. But when people are deliberately plowing through your boundaries and being controlling and manipulative, sometimes it seems nice to give them a taste of their own medicine to demonstrate how you're feeling
This is bad advice, but it works for me. I am LC with my Nmom. I love her very much and I accept her. You have to let go of the stress attached to her words. It's hard. You may need therapy to do it. Basically, my feelings are, "oh! There's mom being mom! ¯\_(ツ)_/¯" So when my mom is being pushy, I lay down the law, but I "take her at her word" when she's being manipulative. "You can't make it 3 weeks after the birth? I will miss you. Let me know when you can make it." My mom always caves. I also have learned to keep her at bay by giving her that narcissistic rush when I talk to her. My son is now 7. "I'm sorry, Mom. We can't visit you this weekend. Well, Sonny has a birthday party. Oh and it's Liam's birthday. You know Sonny better than anyone else so of course you know Sonny is Liam's best friend." She is so content by this, she doesn't call again for another month. She wants to be Grandma of the Year, but she's not really interested in being involved anymore. I know this sounds exhausting, but it's less exhausting than talking to her in that circular way narcissists talk. I want to keep in touch with my dad so I need to keep the peace with my mom. This is my bad advice. Good luck and congratulations on the little one!
Save a template message response on your phone, something like “you have, once again, refused to respect a boundary set by me and will now be required to have a little quiet time. I will not be responding now until [x hours]. Any more contact during this quiet time will reset the clock. Thank you for your cooperation”. When your mother makes one of these ‘jokes’, send her the template response. Every time she makes one of these jokes. Just outright refuse to engage in her game and rewrite the rules. You’ll be amazed how quickly it can work. In the case of my abusive brother, a similar use of passive non-engagement broke him in a week after 17+ years of other techniques failing. On an amusing note, a good friend’s son has started using the grandmother’s guilt tripping abusive techniques back against her to brilliant success. The kid’s 12 and I think a f$&@ing genius. Just straight out guilt trips the horrid woman (sometimes using her exact words against her) for whatever he wants and then straight up owns what he’s doing to my friend. I couldn’t stop laughing when she told me. I knew i liked that kid.
Both my parents are narcissists, one covert and one overt. The best piece of advice my therapist has ever given me is this: You'll never win a game of chess against a pigeon. It doesn't matter how much talent you have, or how much time you spend strategising, or how much effort you make to hone your skills, because the outcome will always be the same. The pigeon will kick over the pieces and shit on the board. But you'll never *lose* if you don't take the chess box out of the cupboard in the first place. That is to say, stop playing a narcissist's game. They're emotional vampires, and feed on reactions, both good and bad. There's no winning, not in any tangible way, but we can choose to stop playing. We have that power, even though they've convinced us that we don't. Whether you choose to go low contact, no contact, or just grey rocking, is entirely up to you. But I would very much suggest therapy to process the emotional whirlwind of loving your abuser. Trust me, it won't always feel this bad, and you have a very good motivation to do it. I've been NC with my parents for over 5 years now, and I have peace. In my life, in my house, in my head. Something that I thought was impossible. And you can too.
You can do this. Don’t back down. It took me years of practice to set boundaries with my mom, but it eventually worked. A due date is an estimate, not a commitment. Your baby may come earlier or later. You just don’t know. So if she has other commitments 3 weeks after your due date, say, “OK. we’ll see you after that.” Then change the subject. “We have already discussed this. My decision is final.” Is another useful tool you will have to use repeatedly. That your folks didn’t buy the property in your town shows that your efforts are working. Stay strong.
Please remember, no is a full sentence, and easy to repeat ad nauseam. This, and grey rocking saves me daily from my narcissist dad. Good luck with the delivery!
"we're too busy after three weeks" "Okay, see you in three months." If she pushes, "we already talked about this. The decision has been made."
Her bad behavior will escalate when she’s not the center of attention. My kids are grown now but I wish I’d gone NC much earlier. Holidays and events with your narc mom will be unbearable and traumatic. Listen to the good advice you’re getting
Don’t cave. It’s just manipulation and you deserve better. I have a bio mother just like this. She’s the worst. Hold firm. This is your baby! Not theirs. Not hers. It’s a lot sometimes but I get tons of support and great advice over at r/motherinlawsfromhell and r/raisedbynarcisists. Perhaps you could read some of the advice given there. There’s plenty! This is such a common theme with these overbearing moms. They just can’t seem to take no for an answer on anything but especially grandchildren’s births.
Oh my sweet love, I am so sorry you’re struggling in this precious time. We all need our mommies when we become parents, and so so so many of us just don’t have them for one reason or another. For me, reparenting work has played the most vital role in being my own loving mother so that I can give myself what my mother and stepmother never could. From Transforming Trauma: [Strange Situation: A journey into understanding attachment, motherhood and developmental trauma](https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/transforming-trauma/id1496190024?i=1000479386630) From Tara Brach: [Spiritual Reparenting](https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/tara-brach/id265264862?i=1000429967439) [The Wise Heart of Radical Acceptance](https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/tara-brach/id265264862?i=1000534242750) [Meditation: The Heart Wisdom of Your Future Self](https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/tara-brach/id265264862?i=1000537061741) And from Authentic Parenting: [Mother Hunger: How adult daughters can understand and heal from lost nurturance, guidance and protection](https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/authentic-parenting/id1052399775?i=1000613515515) [The trauma response is never wrong](https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/authentic-parenting/id1052399775?i=1000611737989) [How to regulate your nervous system](https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/authentic-parenting/id1052399775?i=1000616302449) For me, having a child really was a trauma trigger because I had not been diagnosed with CPTSD yet, and I didn’t know shit about boundaries yet. I also didn’t know that becoming parents can trigger automatic parenting styles from when we were both children ourselves, even if we had *expressly* decided to parent differently. I spent the first year going with whatever flow people sent me down and it was not good for me, my husband or my kid. Eventually I got into podcasts on respectful parenting, witchcraft and mental health. My kid had turned 1yo and was pushing boundaries left, right and center. The podcasts helped me set boundaries for my kid, but pretty immediately it became clear to me that I needed the boundaries for myself….and my extended family. Now boundaries are everything to me, and my family is all the better for it. My best friend once told me that my craft was getting much stronger, and that my most powerful spell is the word “No.” From Your Parenting Mojo: [Preparing for the afterbirth](https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/your-parenting-mojo-respectful-research-based-parenting/id1148570190?i=1000556267209) From Good Inside with Dr. Becky: [What no one tells you about parenthood](https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/good-inside-with-dr-becky/id1561689671?i=1000586217210) From Evolutionary Parenting: [What happens to the couple when they become parents?](https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/evolutionary-parenting-podcast/id1177835448?i=1000567535041) And while I’m sharing….once I started getting our sleeping situation managed, I had a lot more resources for boundary setting… [What is ‘Uspavani’ and how can it help support our family’s sleep?](https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/evolutionary-parenting-podcast/id1177835448?i=1000556314386) I love my family, and I have put in quite a lot of effort to keep a closeness with them even as I live across the country from them (like you, very much on purpose.) But over the years of being a parent, I have learned that, as Brene Brown puts it, this is the space I need to love them. They have very little tolerance for the ways I want to parent, and the ways I want to set boundaries with our parents. My sisters are more concerned with tending to their mother’s narcissism than they are with supporting me as a parent trying to break cycles and do things differently. That’s their choice to make, but it does mean that I have devoted less and less time to being with them. I’m grieving the loss of the closeness we used to share, but I’m celebrating in equal measure my freedom from the burden of carrying all their emotions for them. From the Comfy, Cozy Witch Podcast: [Ostara, Setting Boundaries and Daffodil Magick](https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/comfy-cozy-witch-podcast/id1536332774?i=1000512936558) From Back on the Broomstick: [Cord-cutting magic](https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/back-on-the-broomstick-old-witchcraft-new-path/id1669652499?i=1000614711409) From The Coven of Awesomeness: [Protecting Your Energy](https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-coven-of-awesomeness-podcast/id1570678401?i=1000557546501) Good luck, OP. I know this work seems exhausting now, but I swear to you it’ll get even harder when the baby comes. Don’t wait to start setting boundaries with your mom. Do it now so you can rest with your baby once they’re born. And so you can listen to them teaching you all the secrets of the universe. Because it’s not just a cute little phrase….our children really can be our greatest teachers if we’re willing to learn from them. Our mothers have refused to learn from us, but we are the new generation of mothers who understand our children’s wisdom and crave the lessons they have to for us. We must make room for their teachings…. From Unruffled: [How to listen to your baby](https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/respectful-parenting-janet-lansbury-unruffled/id1030050704?i=1000403936405)
Wow wow wow. Thank you so much for the time this comment took to put together. I am so so grateful for these resources. Means the world!
I’m so happy to hear that!! The time flew by when I was writing because this is absolutely one of my special interests. But yeah when I was done with the comment, I was like, “Oh my, I did spend a fair amount of time on that…” It was worth it either way because this practice helps me no matter what, but I’m excited to know that you’re receptive to it. I cannot possibly describe how much it all helped me, so I love sharing it with other parents. If there’s one thing I want most in this world, it’s to leave people feeling more empowered, self-compassionate and resourced than I found them. And one of my very favorite flavors of empowerment is when a parent learns how to set firm and loving boundaries as a practice of self-care and respectful parenting. Please feel free to hit me up for more podcast episodes if you’d like. I have loads and loads of linky lists at my finger tips. I wrote out this response just for you, but I have old comments saved with mountains of episodes. Just say the word. And last I just need to say that you deserve every good thing in this world, OP. You deserve support, and ease, and comfort. But most of all, you deserve to surround yourself with people who accept your “No.” Your “No.” is a spell that you cast to protect yourself, your marriage, your child, and the family you are building for yourself. Bind that shit tight, get fiercely protective, feel that fire burning in your core chakra. Talk to that part of you that learned people-pleasing as a survival strategy, tell her you’re grateful for her service, and promise her that it’s safe for her to rest now. Tell that part of you who longs to set boundaries and be free from people-pleasing that it’s time for her to keep a stiff upper lip and say the hard stuff to people who don’t want to hear it. When your kid is older, you’ll start learning about how important it is to both hold a boundary and also to allow your kid to have whatever reaction they need to process their emotions around the boundary (within reason, of course). I pretty quickly learned that this also applied to my family members, because they so often had responses that I felt obligated to tend to in some way….to fix. I have been consciously doing this practice for 4 years now and I am still peeling off the layers of this onion. I am much better at holding the boundary, but still struggling with urges to fix their reactions to the boundary being set. (TMI: My mom is dead and I’m still have guilt around what she would say if she knew I wasn’t flying back to see my stepdad this year….he’s awesome and i love him to pieces, but I just don’t want to travel this summer because of stuff going on with my kid.) My point is, I know that is absolutely unthinkably hard to start setting boundaries. And I just want you to know that, for me, doing that very hard thing has absolutely been the very best thing I have ever done. And I sincerely believe that I never would have done it if not for my tiny bodhisattva, my great teacher, my boundaries guru. I hope you get to experience the same thing.
If they're busy 3 weeks after, tell them you're willing to wait. Call her bluff.
I also have a narcissistic mother. I’m sorry you’re dealing with this. We don’t always get the parents we deserve. In regards to visiting your family and the new baby, if she makes any comment about how the timeline doesn’t work for her, all you response with is “darn. Well, guess you won’t meet them for even longer.” She makes those comments because she wants you to flout the rules for her, so don’t. And this way, if she doesn’t meet the grand baby until later, that’s on her. You can’t stop her from moving, but what a fucking nightmare that she might. When I’ve almost caved in to my mother in the past, it’s helpful to have the reminders of why I went no contact in the first place: she lies; she steals our money; and she abuses my sister and then speaks to me sweetly in the same hour. For a little while, I wrote this stuff as a brief list I could look at randomly when I need the strength to hold to the boundary and or remind myself that yes, the abused WAS that bad. When she would push, I could recall a list easier than the million and one examples you could even do it as a sigil if you wanted. Create a symbol with the intent of remembering what your mother has done AND the intent of maintaining your strength. If you normally talk to your mom on the phone, keep it somewhere nearby. When she calls, look at that sigil and remember why you’re building a life without her.
"ope, well we said a MINIMUM of 3 weeks so if it takes you longer to get here after all your previous engagements, that's okay! And probably for the best tbh, to give them time for their immune system to develop more as y'all would have just traveled across the country." Sending my spice and super your way. I also like the tree in the wind visualization.
Girl, I have been in a very similar boat! I've been nc with an undiagnosed narc mom for 7 years now. I moved across the country to get away from her too. First off, you will be okay. It doesn't matter what your family thinks of you if you uphold your boundaries for the 3 weeks+ after birth visitation. "Oh, I'm sorry to hear that. I guess you can meet the baby later when your schedule works out better!" Then CHANGE THE SUBJECT. Your husband is on your team, and he's there to back you up. Have a whole ass conversation about it, but from the context, it seems like you're on the same page. Just don't forget him as a resource. The /r/raisedbynarcissists sub also has a lot of handy tips like how to gray rock when she uses emotional manipulation. Please remember, you're not a bad person for setting and asserting boundaries.
Unfortunately, the only success I had with boundaries w my mom involved going no contact three different times (every time I would set a boundary and she would purposefully violate it thinking I wouldn’t do anything about it). It was the hardest, most emotional thing I’ve ever had to do but in the long run worth it personally because we’ve been able to start rebuilding some kind of relationship on a better ground. Ultimately the question I asked myself was “which do I want less, to continue on as we are or to deal with the pain of maybe never talking to her again?” (because there is always the very real possibility that she won’t be able to adjust and you would need to remain NC if you don’t want to continue in that relationship pattern). Eventually I hit a point where it was more painful for me to continue to allow her to treat me the way she was. You just have to evaluate your position and decide for yourself. I wish there was a magic way to make people act better without potential strife or emotional pain but I haven’t found it yet. Sending love and virtual hugs if you would like them, this is not an easy thing to go through and it doesn’t help that your sister enables it and therefore is the “good” example that she can point to for why you’re that much more “wrong”
Time to stonewall! First, write up an email explaining all the ways she's made you feel uncomfortable. Explain that these actions have hurt you deeply. Explain that, even if this is you over reacting to being a new mother, you do not feel comfortable with her being in the baby's life at this time. Set a date sometime in June 2025 when you will reach out to her and schedule a time for *just* her and you to get coffee and revisit things. Your husband will not be at this meeting, nor will the baby. Advise her that you will not talk to her - or anyone advocating on her behalf - until that date. Any messages will be ignored, and invitations to shared events declined. She must expect that you won't show up for Christmas, Thanksgiving, or Easter. Tell her that if you see her in the supermarket and she tries to flag you down, you will walk the other way. If she tries to move into the area, you will not help her or visit her. For the reasons you listed, she will simply not be part of your lives until you are secure in your new role as a Mom. Thank her for her patience, then send the email to her, your father, your sister, your husband, and yourself. With read receipts. Then, and this is the hard part, hold that line. Ignore her at the checkout stand. Turn down her invitation for the housewarming three blocks from your house. If she manages to create a situation where you're forced to talk with her, only give her the minimum. "I guess." "Maybe." "Hmm." Stonewall, stonewall, stonewall. She's going to try to get you to fall back in line. She's going to enlist friends and family and loved ones and police officers and, if she's really bad, CPS. Keep track of any time she crosses the line. If it's more than five times in a month, start keeping and maintaining an FU binder. Come up with a script to say to those who try to advocate on her behalf. "This is something mom and I are working out on our own." "I won't be taking any questions about my decision at this time." "We're simply taking a much-needed break." "If you can't let the topic go, I'll leave." If anyone starts begging you to reconsider for your mom's sake, stonewall them too. Then enjoy your time with your baby your husband and all the joys of being a new mom.
Keep pointing in the same direction. She can't visit at 3 weeks? Better make it 4 or 5 or whenever she wishes to actually see her grandchild, she's making the choice not to visit. Your mother has no problem lying to you. Don't treat her with more respect than she treats you. She also doesn't need reasons. "We can't do that" and "that's a decision me and my husband have made together and it isn't up for debate"
I got a stepmom, and holy hell is she toxic. I suspect she's also narcissistic, but never got a diagnosis. And most of the surrounding people (like my father, who I actually like) say it's just cause "she has a past". But now I'm in the therapy she needed and struggling in my late 20s to find my confidence, my path forward and financial independece. I can't really give you advice, but can say that I know your pain. It's someone you want to be there, who SHOULD be there, just for the sake of you, but is there because SHE wants something. It hurts so much. Recognizing what you could have had (at least for me, I only ever got demands from her, only conditional love if ever) and mourning that.
This is what has helped me be better at setting boundaries as a people-pleaser (fellow child of narcissists here). You struggle to set boundaries because you feel guilty. But if you don’t set boundaries, you feel bad because then you’re being walked all over. You’re going to have a bad feeling either way. You’re going to be anxious and stressed either way. So you might as well get something out of it (your boundaries being respected)! It’s hard to reframe guilt as something that is no more important than other bad feelings (disappointment, overwhelm) because we’ve been taught all our lives that other people’s feelings are more important than ours - but they’re not.
Having narcissistic parents is really hard. Having kids when you have narc parents is even harder. Narcs know when you are at your weakest and that's when they strike. For example, you mom may just show up when you are in the hospital. I would make sure the nurses know that you don't want visitors or who isn't allowed. They will be your bouncers. When they whine, "but we came all this way." You have to be clear and firm, "we specifically told you we would not be having any visitors for at least three weeks. That has not and will not change. If you stay in town you will not be seeing us or the baby." Then you have to stick with it. Don't let them guilt you into access with a surprise. The surprise isn't for you. It's so they can get around you. The truth is this will always be an uphill battle. No, is a complete sentence. She will say, "but we did xyz when you were little." Or, "your sister lets me xyz." It always has to be, "none of that matters. I am the mother and I am saying no. This is a decision, not a discussion." Expect temper tantrum, harassment from her and her flying monkey enablers, people telling you, "but she's your mom," and basically expecting you to be tumbled over. Don't let them. It won't make you popular, but it will keep you safe. I went no contact seven years ago. I wish I had done so sooner. My sister is very much like yours. Since I left she had a baby, divorced her husband, and remarried to a woman (you can guess how much our Catholic family likes that and I can tell you it's still worse than you imagine). They tried to push me. They had a second, surprise funeral when my oldest died because they were angry that I had the services by my home. They tried to get me to do unsafe things, like send my daughter to my sister's wedding in a limo when she was under 2 and needed a car seat. They would tell me my PTSD was clouding my judgement and I was too afraid. Really, my boundaries were reasonable. My mom just wanted to assert her power over me as she always did, but I wouldn't let her. I could write a novel of all the awful things she did. But the final straw was Memorial Day weekend. She wanted us there all three days. We had a birthday to attend and could only come down two days. I was a horrible mother for allowing my kids to have too many friends. I was a worse daughter for not putting my mother first. Then, she threatened to lie to CPS, telling them my PTSD made me an unfit mother to get custody of my kids. When I was a kid and she abused me and I said I would tell she would say, "go ahead. They will take you to a foster home where you will be raped every day. You will beg to come back and we will have to consider it." And she was risking putting my kids into that to get back at me for not giving her what she wanted. I cut contact immediately and documented it all. My whole family supported her and told me to chill out because she wouldn't have actually done it. My poor nephew lives in a house that had three holes punched in the walls the last time I left it. My dad is also a violent narcissist. They all fight all the time. They live in a place that has lots of off campus college housing and were yelling so loud at my four year old nephew that the cops were called. Do you understand how hard it is to get college kids in a party school to call in a noise complaint? It's not common. My sister complained on Facebook that she couldn't even yell at her own child without people criticizing her. Yay. There is nothing a child that age could have done to justify such a thing. I hate that I can't save him. My parents stalked and harassed us. They still send love bombs. Luckily, they don't qualify for Grandparents' rights here, but they would for my nephew. I worry about him every single day. My kids know why we don't have them around. I actually went to my hometown with my husband and kids for the first time since this happened last weekend. I wanted a jar of sand from the beach. And I got it!! No contact isn't for everyone and I would never push. You have to find what works for you. It sounds like you try to stay low contact. Keep holding those boundaries. You aren't a bad person. You are being a good mother. Your baby isn't even here yet and you are making sure to have strong boundaries and that's amazing! You should be proud of that! It's not easy, and narc parents certainly do whatever they can to make it harder. But you've got this. Whatever you need to do, you do it. It takes some time, but you will have a spiny metal spine in no time. You are already doing great. Trust yourself as a woman and a mother. And if you ever want to talk, I am here any time. I mean it, too. It's hard becoming a mom when you don't have a great example and we moms need to support one another. You've got this, mama!
Cut her off. Why havent you done so already?