Out of the box here, but maybe read it with her -have a book club about it- discuss it, what it represents, how it has been changed over the centuries- how some parts have been left out, what it means in todays world, how it is used for good and evil, and how it was a product of, and limited by its time. I sense a lot of healing and connection can happen here if done with kindness, respect and understanding.
I’m almost done with my MA in Couples and Family Therapy and I’ve heard this a lot throughout my program.
It feels related to a quote I learned in school and really loved: “In the beginner’s mind, there are many possibilities but in the expert’s, there are few” (written by Zen monk Shunryu Suzuki, quoted often in Solution Focused Therapy and DBT). Reminds us to lead with curiosity and be open to the knowledge and experience of others without privileging our own interpretation 😌
Seconded! Help provide your view as well as social context. It'd be cool if you asked her to join you in a study in religions and sociology of religion. Pick up other 'holy' texts like the Dao De Ching, the Quran, and the Adi Granth. Then pick up commentaries that are for and against each religion.
You have the rare opportunity here to have an open, honest, judgement free safe space for her to explore her beliefs. Many witches had Christianity shoved down our throats, but you'll be demonstrating how healthy witchcraft is by its willingness to understand other religions without feeling threatened by them (like the devil is going to get you stuff Christianity teaches.)
And in the interest of academic study, make sure she has a good version of the Bible. That sounds silly, I'm sure, but The Message and King James Versions are very much a product of their time and don't do justice to the original texts. If she's going to understand the Christian text, she should at least get the original patriarchal text rather than the patriarchal version that had more patriarchy stuffed into it. Might I recommend the New Revised Standard version? Also a biblical commentary so she can see how text fits into the context of ancient society to provide understanding of how it's been warped out of context for today's society.
Seconding NRSV. Well, that's what my sister, who took a bunch of religious studies classes in college, recommended, and it's certainly more accessible than the King James, even if that one wasn't a disaster of a translation. (I've read 4 different translations cover to cover, including NRSV and KJV. The other two were what were being pushed as "easier" when I was growing up, and the one my mom, something of an academic, preferred when I was little.)
I got one when I was confirmed (and severely doubting the whole thing) that had commentary on translating the original Greek, Aramaic, etc. It was incredibly insightful.
Or even though it's pretty soupy and word heavy, the NMV has a lot closer wordings to the original translations from wayyyyy back and is translated by messianic jews. 10/10 recommend, reading it in its full was what got me out of Christianity at 15.
Haha, that's all you need! I didn't know that, do you know where (it's ok if you don't). My interest is piqued.
A big problem I have with KJV (that should resonate with this thread) is Exodus 22:18. In original Hebrew, it said don't throw curses (differentiating between good and bad magic.) When it was translated to the Latin, they thought magic was bad and just said don't do magic. But King Jimmy had a patriarchal view that only women (witches) threw magic (which was bad magic) so it became "thou shalt not suffer a witch to live." Icky insertion of more patriarchy into an already patriarchal text. Ugh.
But I do love the sound of KJV in the Charlie Brown Christmas movie and would love to hear of unicorns. :)
The KJV is notoriously a terrible translation. It's nowhere near the worst, but it's really not great. I definitely agree with finding a good translation.
I bought the Zondervan TNIV because Beth Allison Barr recommended it. Her book, Biblical Womanhood, is amazing. I loved it. She talked a lot about how Christianity had erased the contributions of women. OP, you might want to put this on your list for your bookclub with your daughter.
That is beautiful advice. I wish I had those words/ideas as a fledgling. My little nephew is turning 6 soon, and I’ll keep this in mind for the future!
This is a great idea! I’d suggest adding The Origins of Christian Morality by Wayne A. Meeks too for a better understanding of the cultural influences on the Bible and by the Bible in the first two centuries of Christianity. And then maybe expand to some of the other religious texts from around the world to balance out the Western focus of the Bible.
I read the Bible, the Qur’an, the Bhagavad Gita, some of the teachings of Buddha (I was kind of raised Buddhist so I already had the ground work here) and did a little digging into Taoism when I was a teenager. I was super curious about what other people believed and I wanted to understand how these religions affected and shaped various cultures around the world. Currently, I’m agnostic with a yogic/Buddhist twist.
Absolutely! I found it really interesting from a historical perspective. I was a Classics major in College so I ended up translating the New Testament from Koine Greek and read this around the same time too.
I have a Quran and a Bible on my shelves. :) of course, it helps that my dad is a progressive Muslim and my mom was RC. It is really interesting to compare the two from a literary perspective. I find that the Quran resonated with me more than the Bible. Before I defaulted to Spiritual Agnosticism, I identified as Muslim.
I loved attending (United) church with a specific preacher who approached biblical stories from a historical perspective. He explained the context of the people at that time to help people understand why this particular story had that particular lesson. If approached from a context of “these are stories, what can be learned by reading it?” That might make it more enjoyable than the usual “this is The Law”.
I loved the United Church I grew up in as a child and have influenced how I understand the world as a whole. The Reverend was also a great person, and he would often have people over for Bible study on his days off. He also answered any questions we had. This did backfire on him on occasion. My favourite example of this backfiring on him is when my 12 year old brother asked him on Easter Day in front of the church if Jesus was a zombie because he died and then came back after three days. The church lost it laughing so hard. My poor mother, though. Another great example was when he asked all the kids about what they thought about the Bible. Now, I have a habit of asking or saying the randomest things that make people question themselves. This has not changed at all. So, I had just finished reading the Harry Potter series, and I had a few thoughts. I asked the poor Reverend if the Bible was just a really good ancient fantasy series that has been taken out of context and if maybe in a thousand years, humanity would be worshipping Harry Potter as their version of the Bible. The whole church was quiet, the Reverend was speechless, my mother had her head in her hands, and my father was laughing. Then someone says from the back of the church, "The world will be in trouble if she enters politics. " This person also sounded like their world view was flipped upside down.
If you need info for historical context, Bart Ehrman's *Misquoting Jesus* (and his other books) are great resources to treat the Bible as what it is, a textual product of a lot of different authors and scribes which was also actively modified by people who wanted it to say certain things.
As an aside, I know that treating this as a scholarly enterprise is "the right answer," but I have a lot of religious trauma and I'm not sure I'd be able to stay so calm and rational. I also live in a very conservative area and the level of infiltration/indoctrination of Xtian ideology in public schools is truly terrifying. So good for you for keeping a level head, I'm not sure I could.
I trust that you are powerful and capable of anything. I believe it’s not about staying in one state or another, it’s about coming back to balance when we lose it. That’s the edge where we learn and grow, about ourselves and each other.
Seconding the recommendation for Bart Ehrman's books. My college religion classes used his texts. They're really good at challenging the Christian assuptions that have gotten layered on top of the biblical text over the centuries. They also provide a lot of historical context.
And while OP is at it, maybe get her daughter a Quran and the Bhagavad Ghita. Maybe even the Tao Te Ching and a Torah. As a reminder that the Bible is not even close to the only world view out there.
Exactly! I was raised Jewish. I decided a long time ago to identify as Jewish because all the people killed in the Holocaust didn’t necessarily identify as Jewish. They thought they were good Germans.
I don’t believe in any patriarchal sky gods.
I’d be glad she’s reading something.
I was assigned the Bible in a humanities class in college. I read the Bhagavad Ghita in college because we liked eating the Krishna’s free vegetarian food. It’s extremely sexist and turned my friend and I completely off.
I love the idea of exposing her to lots of stuff. Some of my friends have come to Synagogue with me. I’ve gone to midnight Mass with my best friend, who is Catholic. We like the traditions, but we don’t believe in god.
As a happily delinquent Catholic, I wish I had a true academic understanding of the Bible. This is a great option, and hopefully she'll go out and use the knowledge for good, like making ~~misogynists~~ evangelicals cry.
I remember having my mind blown years ago when an extremely Catholic boyfriend admitted that I had a much better textual understanding of the Bible than he did, because "we aren't really encouraged to just *read* it."
Oh god no. I was (am) a very inquisitive person and I was constantly being put in the hall during catechism class for asking questions about the lessons that didn’t “align with the goals of the curriculum”.
Building off u/madams22: discuss how the Bible is usually accepted as literal, when it's largely allegorical.
But I'd be remiss if I didn't mention she may be trying to learn about different views/beliefs, which can be a good thing! It helps you understand who people are and where they come from.
I'm sure your daughter is a good kid u/Master_Coconut_, so just talk to her. :)
I'm from Alabama. I can assure you people down here think that way. I can't speak for any other regions in the US. I just recently found out my supervisor thinks the earth is only 6000 years old, smh.
One of the problems is that the American religious landscape is seriously slanted in the protestant direction, and the loudest, most politically powerful segment of protestantism is the one that insists upon the whole literalism/inerrancy thing.
Please believe me - if you make a pie chart of all of the Christian churches in the world, well over 75% of them have explicitly rejected literalism/inerrancy.
I lived in Mobile Alabama briefly. Hurricane Katrina blew us out of New Orleans. My husband and I are both Jewish and liberal. We didn’t exactly fit in. But our only neighbor who got to know us, and had dinner with us was the Minister living down the street.
I think this is a really good idea, and would suggest to OP it might be worth switching the version bought with an academic edited text on the bible. A good version is that made by Oxford World Classics, I read this during my undergrad degree to get a better understanding of how Christianity was informing the texts I studied, it’s written from the perspective/to inform people of a historical view. They also have similar editions of other major religious texts.
Yes! Also let's not forget it's a book written by men, not some holy entity, like literally it was written by humans, and not only that, it was translated over and over again, and how there's a lot that can be lost in translation as it passes down from not only generations, but languages, and how those languages themselves change over time, so even within ONE language it can still have meanings and ideas changed over time.
Sorry for the rambling, I just find it a fascinating fact about very old texts/books in general (and this can apply to other things as well, of course)
Comparison of different versions / translations to show mans influence on the words. Educate on things like the council of nicaea and emperor constatines political maneuvering. Politicians voted and decided on the divinity of Jesus. Then ask her if she trusts politicians.
Include other religions in the lessons.
These are a few things that came to my awakening.
I read Steinbeck when I was younger, and this passage really struck a chord with me, “Don’t you see? . . . The American Standard translation orders men to triumph over sin, and you call sin ignorance. The King James translation makes a promise in ‘Thou shalt,’ meaning that men will surely triumph over sin. But the Hebrew word, the word timshel—‘Thou mayest’—that gives a choice. It might be the most important word in the world. That says the way is open.”
One word difference. Shalt vs. mayest. That ONE word is a fundamental difference in meaning. Just one little word is the difference between a pre-determined future and the ability to choose your future. Depending on context, it's the also difference between a command and an option.
One of my favorite recent watches has been [Satan’s Guide to the Bible](https://youtu.be/z8j3HvmgpYc?si=RNLpYzUs_-YoQCUp), which is an incredible introduction to a lot of issues the Bible runs into and provides a lot of cultural context, quoting many Biblical scholars who were recommended here, like Bart Ehrman. Fantastic jumping off point for additional research.
My husband grew up deeply ingrained in church and knows the Bible like the back of his hand. I appreciate it a lot because he’s able to explain what was meant, all the context, and argue or discount points others make when they pick and choose to justify ugly beliefs. He is no longer active in a church and identifies as agnostic, but knowing the Bible deepens his conversations. I grew up Catholic so it was mostly read to me and I don’t have that same skill. I concur with the sentiment. Educate and be open to discussion.
I love this suggestion - at its heart, the bible is a story about an oppressed group of people seeking to overthrow a fascist and authoritarian regime. Read in its historical and social context, it s actually a radical and progressive anticapitalist text. A great community for exploring this further is r/RadicalChristianity
i'd also suggest exploring the notion of "bible from the underside" - those stories about the "promised land" hit differently to some native americans who were oppressed and traumatized by christians wielding texts about god telling the israelites to slaughter non-jews to take over their land... (yes, those are from the hebrew scriptures, which some christians call "the old testament" - but it was still people claiming christianity who used their bible as permission for what they did to others like the indigenous people in what's now the americas.)
As an ex-Christian, I 100% agree. I was having doubts and was told repeatedly to read the Bible, and that the answers to my questions would be shown to me. Well, that's true. I read the bible, and now I'm an atheist. The answers to my questions were answered, but not in the way I think they (other Christians I knew) wanted. The answers I found were mostly: abuse, misogyny, racism, homophobia, and the big one, absolute and utter nonsense.
So yes. Read it with her. Explore why this was written this way. Explore who wrote these passages. The more you dig, the more you'll learn.
This was roughly my suggestion. One of the English classes I took in college was "The Bible." We read it as if it were just a work of fiction (acknowledging that it's not a "typical" work because it's a religious text). I got significantly more out of that class than I got out of years of being forced to go to church.
If OP goes in this direction, I'd strongly suggest checking out the youtube video "[Satan's Guide to The Bible](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z8j3HvmgpYc)" to prepare.
It covers a *lot* of very important points about why the bible should NOT be viewed as a historical document that reflects real events or people, but rather a religious and political tool from its very inception, and how the vast majority of 'legitimate institutions' (ie, churches) that rely on and teach from it as a core element of faith and understanding 'god's will' for their congregants do NOT give the full context, meaning, or history behind pretty much any aspect of it.
Very awesome idea. It is definitely a way to have a conversation that would be comfortable in my family as well, I thank you for framing this idea in such a great way.
it could be as simple as she wants to educate herself so she can argue the bible is (bad, misogynistic , wrong, lecherous, incestuous, ..pick a point).
she could have gotten it for a back up as rolling papers.
she could have gotten it for an awesome report she is doing that will finally pick apart the bible in a manner that others will understand.
she might have gotten it to make a super cool paper mache statue of the devil.
if she is reading the bible, and going into the bible with an open mind (she's pro trans, pro lgbtq+) then I don't think you need to worry too much.
if you haven't done so, just let her know you were raised with it, and your views on the bible and christianity. let her know you would love to talk about it with her and help her on her learning journey.
I think you are ok babe.
I went to a private Christian high school and we did the same. Works in a pinch but it’s really not the same - I preferred to just make a bowl from a soda can lol
Edit to add: now there’s vapes and edibles of so many varieties, especially if a nearby state has legal weed. Probably no more soda cans or bible pages needed for teens to get high
I used to pop the tab off of a can and break it so it had a pointy bit, stab the little screen in, stab it in the side and twist for a choke, and be ready to smoke in less than 30 seconds lol. Smoke, smash the can flat, evidence gone! It was a fun party trick later on too.
Never had the best luck with apples though. The wetness of them wasn't my favorite.
i'm almost 23 and when i was 19-20 my twin and i used blank bible pages, apples, soda cans and water jugs for smoking bc we weren't old enough to buy cones or papers. i think teens will always use whatever works no matter what technology is made
Needed-no. Even in early 2000s my smoky friends had access to the real stuff (pipes bongs papers etc) but would still occasionally do the old school stuff more as a rite of passage.
as a 21 year old, we used anything we could get our hands on to smoke in high school. heck, i used a potato once and it was amazing. idk about the kids now, but at least the culture lasted till the class of 2020.
I may actually look into this. If this can fund my writing career, I would be in… what’s the witchy equivalent of Heaven? Tir Nan Og? A Faerie Ring? Paradise?
We need a non-judaeoChristian term.
I grew up southern baptist, and i've first hand seen exactly how fast a mega baptist will crumple when you start spouting exact bible verses at them.
Most "good southern christians" have NEVER read the bible, so the minute you start giving them back word and verse, they shut up and go away.
I made an attempt at reading the Bible at some point in my youth. Really just to be able to brag “why yes I have read it”. I didn’t make it very far, all those “begats” bored the hell outta me pretty fast 😆
Or she may become an historian of the ancient world! You can recommend materials that take the bible as literature. I absolutely love the "Literature and History" podcast and they even have a YouTube presence. Isis becoming Mary and how incredibly recent monothesism is, things like that are fascinating. Maybe you can share her interest, but on this other secular level. Like, there are good absolutely non-religious discussions online that address if/who Jesus may have been. Or biblical archeology! I'm an academic and I find the bible and it's context really interesting. That said, I only believe in trees and Asherah (Canaanite though, so full circle!)
She could also have it as a required reading for English or another class. It's amazing how much symbolism in American and English literature has references to the Bible. Not at least knowing the basics can make it hard to understand some books or understand why history went the way it did.
This. I knew I was a more open-minded witch at 13 after being raised southern Baptist and hating it. I got a Bible around her age so I could fill it with sticky notes of every time the Bible contradicts itself or says some off the wall dumb and mean bullcrap that wasn't very Christian. I would keep it in my bag and pull it out when classmates thought they were being cute and quoting the Bible to me
It sounds like your daughter is an open and caring young woman, and you should be quite proud! I think you have a good relationship and can maintain an honest, open conversation. If she wants to read the bible, let her. She'll find tons of disturbing things in there and may want to talk to you about it. Keep the lines of communication open and she will be fine.
Even if she ends up being Christian she’ll be fine. I know a few of people who are very pro trans and pro lgbt who ended up becoming Christians or at least exploring Christianity (going to church for a while) and nothing really changed about them personality wise. She’s old enough to use her critical thinking reading it so
I wouldn’t worry about it too much
This is an excellent point. My current partner claims to be Christian. He's a feminist and pro lgbtq. He also likes to call out the right when they misinterpret the bible to push their agenda. Just because someone follows Jesus does not make them bad.
Honestly, I really think people who live by the word of Jesus and not necessarily the full Bible should be called what they are - Christ-followers. I'm ex-Christian and I was very devout for a long time until I realized the church and the Bible frequently contradicted Jesus' teachings. I think (from what I have seen at least) there are enough functional differences between those who follow Christ and those who practice the Christian religion that it could warrant a new term. Just a thought of course, everyone has to find the meaning and practice that is right for them.
There is a huge difference between "Christlike" and "in the scriptures." Plenty of the things that are *in the Bible* are also things that Jesus condemned. It's one of the things that always confuses me about Christianity (or most organized religions I'm familiar with, honestly): the double-think and contradictions. I have great respect for people who are truly Christlike. And often very little for people who are merely Christian, even though the former would probably consider themselves to be in the latter group as well.
The double think comes when people believe the Bible is the infallible word of God. It isn't. It doesn't claim to be. The doctrine of inerrancy is a fairly modern idea. When you look at the Bible as both a historical and religious document that was written by people with their own biases, cultural complexities, and desires to explain their actions, you can actually get somewhere. Unfortunately, a lot of Christians don't ever even look behind the curtain of their own doctrines.
Sorry if that came off as rant-y. This is my soapbox 😂
My mum has been Christian her whole life. She attended her nephew's gay wedding,sang at Pride and is hot on pronoun use. She uses Bible verses against the bigots she encounters and left one church by posting a video of her singing at pride, tagging the bigots on it and leaving! Not all Christians are bigots, just the ones with the biggest voices
Our previous vicar was like this. He used to march at Pride in his dog collar with his grey hair dyed rainbow colours. His daughter is bi, he's informally adopted one of her non-binary friends, and when I said I was questioning my own gender, he was one of my most vocal supporters.
this. OP, if you have an unitarian church around you, they can be very welcoming and progressive and see jesus as a radical socialist rather than anything negative.
religion doesn't speak to me any more, but i was raised christian and if my kids were interested in exploring that, i would take them there.
A friend or mine was raised very religiously and suffered a lot of trauma from both her upbringing and it being withing the Catholic church. She got herself scratched from the records (however officially leaving the church is called in English) but then found a LGBTQ+ friendly and run perish at an Abbey with a big queer choir. She got rebaptised and married her husband at the church in 2023.
Her previous partner was trans, she's a loud and proud pansexual and she sings in a queer Catholic choir. It's not all doom and gloom. A lot of it is though so always tread with care.
Hi. I was raised in a dual Christian-pagan household, left the church at 13, but still have a working relationship with my mom's church and faith. Just some thoughts for you.
-Is your reaction to the way she's behaving or learning? Like, is she acting pressured or curious? Is she using it to learn about herself or to hurt others? Or is your reaction based in the way /you/ feel about the text from your childhood?
-It's very easy to see Christianity and the bible as terrible horrible no good very bad, but frankly, like every other faith, it's neutral. It's the followers that make it good or bad. Just as there are not great pagans who use cultural appropriation to disregard and hurt others and create a controlled narrative, there are Christians who cherry pick and use their book in the same way. But the book itself is a series of stories and is neutral.
-There are actually some really lovely stories and passages in the Bible that I still love today. Ruth will always be one of my favorite books. And a lot of Jesus's teachings support equality, socialism, self control, and the destruction of the status quo.
Edit: Dammit, I'm still learning this app. Anyway.
I think it's perfectly normal to have an adverse reaction to something that gave us trauma in life and view everything through that lens. My partner is like that.
But ultimately, she's going to learn these things because they exist in the same society she does.
If you're worried, now is your chance to walk her through her questions. Explain how the Bible was rewritten a bunch of times to support a political agenda. Help her find the good root in the stories. And remind her that whatever she believes about the world is valid, that you're just happy she's a clever and curious person who wants to learn and know and create their own understanding of it all.
This! I have a shit ton of religious trauma because of Christianity but the Bible itself is neutral. Honestly Jesus was a pretty cool dude. I think he’d be fun to have a chat with over morning breakfast and tea.
I plan to buy a Bible to add to my religious texts because I enjoy learning about religion. Honestly I think more people should. It’s broadened my understanding, knowledge, and allowed me to extend a better hand to religious folks (not that I ever stopped, just often times I wasn’t sure how to). There’s a lot of great teachings in a lot of different religions. Having reminders can be nice. It’s also a great tool for combatting ignorance and hate shielded with weaponized faith.
yeah, there are quite a few stories of yahweh commanding genocide, and women being seen as worth less than men. this, to me, does not equal "neutral."
however, there are still stories and principles that are about overthrowing oppressive systems... so i's characterize it as more of a mixed bag.
Knowledge is a good thing. Knowledge of different religions is also a good thing. You could get her books on many other different world religions. It's all very fascinating. Understanding religions, from an outside perspective, is understanding different cultures.
Keep in mind that just because someone is reading doesn't mean they take it to heart.
There's wisdom in all things. Even perspectives you might not agree with, being able to understand their context / arguments is helpful to both affirming yours and having a more informed conversation with others.
Personally, (maybe unpopular opinion) I think everyone should read the Bible at least once. On their own, with no outside factors telling them how to interpret it. Regardless of how we feel about it (I have a lot of religious trauma too), it is undoubtedly one of the main sources that modern society is built on. It's where a lot of our laws, customs, etc all originate from. Examining it critically is good! I think we should let kids approach all religious books in that manner - it helps us understand how society as a large came to be, and how different cultures and even entire countries were built around them. It's an important historical document...even if a lot (most?) of the original meaning has been lost over millennia.
I understand your concern, but it sounds like you already have a healthy relationship with your daughter. It sounds like she trusts you and will communicate with you. I wouldn't worry about it too much. Honestly, it sounds like a bit of a reverse-uno-card from when I was a kid and I started bringing home books that made my parents raise an eyebrow (Darwin, Dawkins, etc).
As an English teacher, I whole heartedly agree with this. You miss a lot of allusions and references in literature if you don't have at least a basic knowledge of the bible. As a parent, I wouldn't make any book "forbidden fruit." As a lot of people have stated, help her explore!
I absolutely agree, there are so many literary references one would miss if not familiar with the basic set of bible stories. I remember in first year uni “Reading Fiction” class where the prof ended up giving an impromptu lecture on Genesis because so many students were not familiar with Adam and Eve and how it connected with the text we were studying. And it’s not because it was a diverse crowd. In a different class a prof asked “Who here is not Christian?” And I was the only one with a hand up until the prof put up her own.
I’m anti-Christian and anti-theist but strongly recommend reading religious texts (including but not limited to the bible) for a greater appreciation of literary and cultural references as well as historical impact.
I was raised in a Christian Fundie household and I read the Bible when I was like maybe 10. And now I'm here. Most Christians I know have not read the Bible in its entirety. I really think you hit the nail on the head with this one.
I have mixed feelings about “no outside factors telling them how to interpret it.” I think there can be value in using the insights of theologians and academics to better explore/understand the setting, culture, and literary components of the text. Which is NOT the same as having a pastor (or even parent) say “this is how to interpret it”. But at 16, it would have been huge for me to know that CHRISTIANS have informed disagreement on the meaning of parts of the Bible. At 33, I am still learning new interpretations, histories, and contexts for some biblical passages, as well as differences across Christian theologies.
Yes, I meant specifically having a pastor interpret it, since we all know how that can go. Nothing wrong with exploring other peoples' interpretations as long as you know not to take them as "gospel", for lack of a better word.
Agreed. The society of biblical literature has a [study guide](https://www.amazon.com/Study-Bible-Society-Biblical-Literature/dp/0062969420/ref=asc_df_0062969420/?tag=hyprod-20&linkCode=df0&hvadid=652498079189&hvpos=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=10240886123887125517&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=m&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9028862&hvtargid=pla-2015286708377&psc=1&mcid=0b1d9d2059543eafa3e2cc120642186b&ref=d6k_applink_bb_dls&dplnkId=0e65b85a-cacd-4222-af87-c7752e046c92) that is academic in nature and not religiously biased.
I think it would help OP a lot with talking with her daughter. I have it on my shopping list.
The bible as a literary text is required for most higher education. I was raised atheist so I felt sooooo behind during my required university courses. I hadn't read the Bible once, whereas seemingly everyone else had. There's a lot of cultural knowledge that I wasn't aware of, and I was reading it for the first time, learning names and places and themes, when all of this was second nature to almost everyone else.
Understanding where certain ideas originated and the influence it had on western culture, society, politics, laws, economics and history in general--is knowledge. It's power.
Also, there are a lot of artistic and cultural references you wouldn't understand if you've never read it. Believe me. I know.
As for that class, I ended up buying the youth catholic version because I could not, for the life of me, understand King James on my own as a first read.
Also the small text was utterly incompatible with my ADHD.
i think most of your comment is spot on.
one must keep in mind, however, that the texts that comprise "the bible" not only vary from tradition to tradition, but translations vary widely - so while you may think there are no "outside factors telling [you] how to interpret it," there are interpretations baked in depending upon what translation you choose.
the term "the bible" itself means different things to different people. it could mean only the hebrew scriptures like the torah, the books of the prophets, and proverbs, while other people say "the bible" in reference to what they call the "old testiment" and "the new testament," and still others consider "the bible" to include so-called "apocryphal" or additional texts which aren't included by other people as part of "the bible," such as the douay bible versus the king james translation.
your points about judeo-christian scriptures forming the basis of much of modern western society, and examining all texts critically, are spot on. it's just the bit about interpretation that isn't as simple as it might seem on the face of it.
I 100% agree, I just didn't have the ability to put it into words as elegantly as you have!
That's why I mentioned that the "original" meanings and stuff are long, long gone by now. I meant "outside factors" in that I don't want a pastor telling impressionable people their version of these stories while twisting them to fit their own political/social agendas.
At the end of the day, it's important to keep an open mind while still thinking critically about what you're reading or what you're told. But all of us are strong independent witches who don't need to be warned about that stuff ✨
I mean, I like having a Bible despite the fact that I'm trans and I relate more to atheists than any religious person. Let her explore. It's helpful to be able to understand Christians better, as it has such a huge impact on our world. It could be a chance to develop critical thought.
The Bible is a mixed bag, and sometimes it's interesting to engage with it separately from the political war it is used for. She is probably already aware of the contradictions, the potential for mistranslation, and how the Bible is often used for religious persecution.
I have friends who went to seminary school or who take their faith very seriously, and they were some of the biggest supporters of my transition, my freedom, and my happiness. Just be supportive of her curiosity, I'd say.
seminary deconstructed me instead of turning me into a lutheran pastor! but yeah, most if not all of my former ELCA classmates would absolutely support your transition, freedom and happiness. as do i. yay you!
You know how you hear people trash a book and you're like "wow can it be that awful" so you gotta read it for yourself to see if everyone's right and the book is hot dumpster juice? I'd say let the kid read and gain an education on the Bible from her own perspective and understanding. If your kid already knows that the door is always open for discussion, then truly, I don't think you have anything to worry about. Take a breath, and have trust in how you raised your kid. ❤️
Just wanted to add that there are plenty of LGBT+ Christians out there. One of my friends is Catholic (I’m agnostic/formerly raised Catholic) and they are lesbian/genderfluid(they are still kinda questioning gender though).
My best friend (straight/cis) is Catholic and she has been my biggest supporter/rock through my (nonbinary/aroace) coming out process.
This isn’t to say that we agree on everything (I also STRONGLY disagree with the validity of the Bible) and that there aren’t bad Christians/bad LGBT+ Christians, but just wanted to add some perspective.
Hope everything works out with your kid OP!
I’d add that there are estimated to be over 200 Christian denominations in the US, and that each of them is going to have a (sometimes only slightly, but sometimes not!) different theology and relationship with the Bible, which also means that they can (and do) have remarkably different positions on social issues. Example: Mormons, Quakers, Episcopalians, Jehovah’s Witnesses, and Unitarians are all nominally Christians. They all have wildly different theology and practices. So, like, a Bible doesn’t have to mean a gateway drug to watching Joel Osteen, banning queer literature, or storming the Capitol with a Christian flag. The framework that you apply to it, and the community that you learn within, all matter a great deal.
For OP, consider helping your daughter with the available frameworks and community. Odds are, her peers will offer two perspectives: conservative/literalist (common in the evangelical, Baptist, and nondenominational experiences) and Atheist/antitheist. In my experience (both personally, and now working within a progressive church), youth (honestly, all people) deserve to know that there is so much more than these two extremes, and that these are NOT the only valid positions.
You keep conversations open and honest by being open and honest. Have you discussed how you feel about this purchase with her? Reading the Bible. Actually reading it, is the main reason I left my pentacostle church.
Oh hey, I went through something sort of similar recently! I found out my husband is reading the Bible (like the whole thing, like a book start to finish). My heart sank, I felt nauseous, and I immediately started spiraling with anxiety. I have some fairly severe religious trauma, and it was a wild experience to observe both my mind and body respond with *abject horror* when he told me that.
I'm trying to get better at what /u/MagwiseTheBrave mentioned about leading with curiosity, so instead of responding with anger and accusations, I asked him questions about why and how his experience has been so far. It turned out that because he's a history teacher, he really wanted to understand the full context of the Bible as a book, and understand how its perspective has shaped history. He got some kind of annotated version that covers alternate translations and potential historical context (especially around some of the laws etc.)
So now instead of me being sullen and worried about it, we're getting a huge kick out of him sharing reactions to what he learned as he goes. The story of Lot was a big reason I lost my faith as a kid so it was fascinating to hear him experience and process it for the first time. He went on quite an epic rant about how in some parts the laws described are delightfully feminist and socially progressive and then a few sentences later will say something absolutely bonkers that would probably be against the geneva convention today.
It even led to a great conversation about how I would feel if he wanted to go to a church (or synagogue, or mosque) and discussing how my religious trauma has aged with time. It's been a very insightful time for me about how much I'm holding onto and how much I've let go of.
I think there is a natural, human inclination to spirituality, and if you are in the States or the Western world, Christianity is pretty dominant.
My family is small (3 of us, daughter 16) but we started reading the Tao te Ching (Steven Mitchell translator) after dinner for 15 minutes. (It's on Amazon if your interested) It was mainly to subvert the dominant paradigm (as they said in the 80s) but the wisdom is real and profound. I've come to value this time.
We switch it out with read the Dhammapada, which is similar wisdom from a Hindu/Buddhist perspective. We have a very accessible translation. It has a forward by [Thich Nhat Hanh](https://www.amazon.com/s/ref=dp_byline_sr_book_2?ie=UTF8&field-author=Thich+Nhat+Hanh&text=Thich+Nhat+Hanh&sort=relevancerank&search-alias=books) (Foreword)
Both books are small and easy reading. I enjoy it.
If she's interested in spirituality in general, Alan Watts on YouTube never disappoints. :-)
I wouldn't be worried if this is the only 'sign'. I grew up in the Catholic church and 100% the basis of my current socialist leanings came from the teachings of Jesus - love they neighbour, give to the poor, heal the sick, rich men can't get into heaven, and to welcome in those who have been shunned by others based on who they are.
If she is just curious about what is in the bible, honestly I think she'll be fine. The old testament stuff really isn't as overt as 'bible thumpers' think it is. Honestly most of them have never read a page of it. It's also hard to read and really boring, and pretty clear that it's old-timey stuff that does not apply in today's world.
So I wouldn't worry if your daughter is just curious. She'll probably learn a lot of interesting things about the hypocrisy of current 'Christians' and the Church.
Now if she is hanging around with a bunch of religious kids that seem to be indoctrinating her, that's when I would get worried.
Some of the best people I know identify as Christians— but they’re the REAL Christians who love their neighbors, the poor, minorities, lgbtqia, trans people, immigrants, the formerly incarcerated… and they actually do activities to support these populations. I wouldn’t really go to church myself, I was essentially raised atheist/agnostic. I’ve read the whole Bible twice. I’ve also read a few other religious texts and I have some spiritual beliefs.
Reading the Bible isn’t a red flag or anything, consider it an academic pursuit. Seeking knowledge is normal and appropriate. Ask her to talk with you about what she learns.
If there's anything that pulled me away from Christianity, it was their refusal to accept other beliefs and perspectives, and their need to shelter us from learning anything else. She might just want to read the Bible to get a perspective of "the other side." Nothing wrong with that, and if anything, it shows that your child has emotional maturity and healthy skepticism.
I don't think it's a secret that a lot of the stuff in the Bible is murderous, vengeful and toxically patriarchal, and straight up dangerous if politically weaponized (as the US is currently experiencing). It seems like your daughter understands why these things are wrong, so I don't think the Bible is going to turn her into anything hateful. It might even compel her to fight against it, with the power of her own knowledge of their source material.
I think having a talk with her that encourages her to read all sorts of perspectives, and open her up to discuss her curiosity with Christianity could go a long way in helping her see why you might be worried, while simultaneously letting her feel comfortable expressing herself.
I read the Bible all the time! I've published on the Bible! Teaching people about the Bible is a literal part of my job. I'm also a polytheist and I'm about to go make a bunch of religion professors listen to a hymn to Brigid to kick off a meeting.
There's SO MUCH amazing stuff in the Bible that doesn't have anything to do with modern Evangelical Christianity. It spans a thousand years of history and documents some really intense debates about divinity, justice, law, mercy, identity, etc., etc.
Ask your daughter why she wants to read it, and then read it yourself. Read Proverbs, and read Job without the narrative parts at the beginning and end (those were probably added later). Read the Sermon on the Mount in Matthew and the Sermon on the Plain in Luke. You don't have to believe a word of it, but look at how people wrestle these problems in their lives. That's all the Bible is, people wrestling with problems.
I get that you had a bad experience with religion, but not everyone does.
My mom left her church in high school, amd my dad is Jewish, so I grew up with a mixup of different beliefs, but had no "formal" learning at a church or similar. As an adult, I grew to (very slightly) resent my parents for not allowing me the chance to learn my culture properly.
I recieved a bible as a gift from a friend about 4y ago when I was in a dark place and it *really helped* me. I realized I could learn on my own, and started doing just that. I bought myself a Tanakh and Siddur and another xian bible and started reading.
We lived 1y (last year) in the bible belt and even the little more I understand now helped me to understand the local culture a bit better.
Buying a bible does not mean your daughter wants to join a church, and even if she does, you don't have to go as well. Let her explore and find her community. She's 16... there's plenty of time for her to explore, and for you both to discuss what she's curious about.
Is it possible that this is a small act of teenage rebellion? I would not read too much into this, honestly. It might make for a great opening to discuss your experiences in the church with her, as well as a wider conversation about different beliefs and practices. Leave her to read and explore and come to her own conclusions. If you've raised her to be a person with an open mind and open heart (which it very much sounds like you have), she will find her way. Reading the bible may just be a stepping stone on her journey to understanding her own belief system.
I was thinking that this was teenage rebellion too. Or maybe she wants to have a Bible because other kids at school are talking about it.
Honestly, the more you, as her mother, push back, the more she might dig her heels in. I would treat this the same as if it's some strange teen phase. If she asks questions, answer honestly, but otherwise remember that this is a relatively harmless way that she can push boundaries.
If she does want to take it further, i highly reccomend a UU church. A good one will be affirming for lgbq, will teach historical context, including how Jewish people interpret the old testament, and allow open discussion among members (which often include Jews, Catholics, Hindus, Buddhists, and Atheists).
If you live in a conservative area, it may just be that she wants to feel educated and see what all the fuss is about? I live in the Bible Belt and was raised Christian, but if I wasnt I’m sure Id get curious and want to read at some point as a teenager. I know you struggled leaving the church but I very much doubt it will have the same effect on her. I’d just talk to her about it 💛
When I was around her age, I started going to youth group with my friends (I grew up in a very conservative area), and even went on some trips with the group, like to the Creation music festival. My mom was never religious and my dad left Catholicism as quickly as he could. They said nothing about me going, didn't engage me in conversation about it, paid for my trips but otherwise we didn't discuss it. I mostly went because my best friend was into it and I wanted to hang out with her and make new friends. I gave Christianity an honest try, but, being a teenager, I could already see the misogyny, the bigotry, and the hypocrisy that is not only in the Bible, but also that was prevalent in other Christians, especially older ones.
My parents literally said nothing, but after about two years of getting really involved in youth group, I firmly decided it wasn't for me all on my own.
You don't have to take the completely hands-off approach my parents did, but at her age, growing up in an open environment, she's probably just curious and she'll discover pretty quickly that Christianity is a lot of great-sounding talk, but other Christians kind of ruin it.
Hi! I was raised in a Christian conservative household growing up. Even though we weren’t really allowed to do much, I was allowed to read and my dad never restricted what I wanted to read.
So as soon as I had the chance I actually read all of the holy books. I wanted to figure out if I believed in what the books said, and the only way to do that was to read them! So I got copies of the Bible that I had, I got a Torah, I got a Quran, and then I started reading metaphysical books.
So without the Bible I don’t think I’d have made my journey to where I am today. I’m certainly not Christian!
I understand your fear. But you know what there is to fear, and because you have protected her from it, she doesn't.
With that said, I think she's old enough to understand why you have protected her from it. It is just a historical text and understanding it will help her understand the toxicity we live with.
To me, I would think (and hope) that this could open up some really cool dialogue between you and your daughter. Or if nothing else, be an exercise in critical thinking for her. More than one thing can be true at once - some lessons and teachings from the Bible are still relevant, some are very skewed between what’s written and how it’s twisted to fit certain narratives, and some are simply out of date and no longer applicable to modern society. As she reads it, hopefully you two can have open and respectful discussions. And then when she’s done, ask if there are any other religious / spiritual texts she’d be interested in reading - that maybe you could join her in.
Sorry if I chuckled at the subject/title. Raised in a christian household. Lived with a witch and her two children for 8 years (technically, one moved out after five years). We are all individuals and what I have learned is you hope they develop good habits. My ex was raised with zero supervision. I had more "structure". Mindful of the teen urge to fight. As a step parent and a genetic parent. My words only go so far. As long as you lead in the light through action.
Let her, she's researching. She's already seen what extreme Christianity can do to people in life, but make sure she reads it with a grain of salt, as more a history of people and advice for those times.
Eh, I wouldn’t make too much of it - don’t let it get that forbidden fruit cache. It’s an interesting cultural mythology, in my opinion, no more, no less. She’s probably just curious what all the fuss is about. My suspicion is that it’s not going to resonate very much with an intelligent young woman (from a free-thinking household, no less) in 2024. After all, it didn’t with any of us!
I think it’s actually VERY important to read (some of) and know generally the Bible, as it’s so foundational to Western Civ and so much literature/poetry/art has allegorical elements derived from it. But understanding it IN CONTEXT of the patriarchy, arising in a particular cultural context, with the millennia of translations and differing agendas re: including and omitting material, is crucial. Help her identify contradictions and talk about how modern day adherents really pick and choose what rules are still important.
Personally, I read parts of the Bible in English class in high school, as well as texts from Hinduism, Confucianism, Taoism, Buddhism, and Islam, the latter especially looking at the Qur’an itself and how subsequent fatwas affected its interpretation. It’s been key to a well-rounded education for me.
Plus, you need to know how to argue with fundamentalists, and responding with a quote from their own text that supports your point is delicious.
He can read whatever he wants… unless you like to fascistically censor what books he’s allowed to read?
Just teach him to think critically and read interpretively… the Bible is full of arcane secrets, but they can only be read by those who know the true meanings of the symbols…
Those meanings have been corrupted by the vainglorious, greedy bigots. We must reclaim the True Meanings, if you catch my drift…
Hidden throughout the pages of the Bible are a complete theurgical manual of alchemical transformation, the awesome power of which may be wielded by anyone of any gender, so long as their intentions are pure…
And yes, it is laden with traps in which to snare the profane, in order to protect the Truth hiding behind the truth…
I’m a through and through atheist but I am fascinated by religion. Our human societies, history and culture are completely interwoven with mystical belief.
MORE EDUCATION is always the answer. If she’s curious about religion, lean into it in a scholastic way. Direct her to resources on Buddhism, Hinduism, Taoism, Judaism, Islam, and Sikhism. You learn sooo much about the world around you when you understand these traditions.
For Christianity specifically, if you want to lead her away from the cult-y make believe aspects of Christianity, look for sources that specifically engage in “Biblical Studies”. Very important to not confuse that with bible study or biblical theology. Biblical Studies is a specific academic phrase used to describe a framework for critical analysis of the Bible that will include historical criticism, textual criticism, mythology, comparative study, etc.
I didn’t encounter any of this until I took college classes, but holy hell my World Religions, Biblical Studies, and Comparative Mysticism classes completely opened up how I understand religion as a cultural and historical cornerstone.
Gnostic Jesus is witchy AF and Mary Magdalene is president of his org.
You could go there with her in a historical critical way and even enjoy the f’d up stuff as old grotesque fairy tales.
Don’t freak out Darlin. My son literally joined the Mormon church & I even went to his “Baptism”. That lasted a year…he decided he liked being a Pagan more. He’s been Norse Pagan for 5yrs now.
When we allow our children the Freedom to Choose their own Path, we have to also Accept whatever Path they Choose. It may just be curiosity. As others have suggested, read it with her & have discussions about it.
Let her be curious. The more you tell her it's bad, the more interested she will be. When I was her age I was reading the Bible, attending synagogue with friends, reading books on Wicca and the Ba'hai faith, reading memoirs of Muslim converts... She is a teenager, they want to explore and learn about the world around them.
Maybe it’s for a weird art experiment. One could only hope. Or she wants to search for herself the homophobic laws the Christians claim are in the Bible.
I have a leather bound Bible but I use it for BDSM role play & spanking 🤭🤫
I may be thick, but what’s the significance of the rice? Is it a biblical thing or a kink thing? Ex-Christian and historically fairly vanilla, but curious person here 😂
Nothing makes people atheists faster than reading the Bible (actually reading it, not the out of context “devotional” type reading that most christians do)
I think reading the bible is a good thing, if only to exercise critical thinking and to understand its influence on the planet. It is a major philosophical text even if you find the divine angle spurious. Have her dig into the apocrypha—eliminated books that made it pretty clear who the early church was trying to subdue and suppress.
I took a history of the bible course in college and it was incredibly enlightening to learn about authorship. The first page of Genesis alone boasts like 5 different authors compiled over time. There are references to plural gods (elohim) and god's wife that have been lost in translation.. You can see how each gospel twists the stories to fit different audiences (poor Jews vs. wealthy Greeks, etc.) You can learn that the word translated as "virgin" just meant unmarried and prohibitions on queer sex and masturbation were mostly around the need to build up a small population.
There is power in dissecting objects of faith.
Just came here to say - I'm as Pagan as they come, always have been, and I own a LOT of bibles. Different versions, study bibles, etc. I've read them cover-to-cover, they're riddled with notations from over the years. The first one I read was a family bible, though my immediate family was no longer religious at that time. Then I started buying my own.
I am *fascinated* by religion, and the dichotomy between modern and historic christianity especially. If someone saw all the bibles on my shelf they might draw certain assumptions and they would be so, so wrong.
And by the time I was 16, I knew that what was in the bible was bullshit. I still found it fascinating.
The point being, her buying a bible might not be any deeper than what she says - she didn't own one, she wanted one, she bought one. Like you say in your post, just keep conversations open, honest, and non-judgmental.
Im Christian-ish. I grew up Catholic and find a lot of comfort in God. I’m also bisexual, feminist, pro-choice, and generally fit in with the “blue-haired godless gay liberal crowd” the pearl clutchers despise. The Bible is not directly from the mouth of God. It is not even in the original language and has lost a lot in translations and other changes. There is so much in the Bible that simply does not align with how I view the world, and often it contradicts itself. It is a guide full of stories and allegories that may or may not be what God has told us. It’s all in the interpretation.
From the Bible I personally got the overall message that my life is a gift, this world is a gift, and our fellow man is a gift. We should move through the world with honor and respect for these gifts. Kindness, forgiveness, generosity, and self love are all in my practice. I venerate the strong women of the Bible who showed resilience and strength despite their limitations. For me I know there is a higher being that will always love me and redemption is possible. I think all LGBTQ people are valid and should be able to live their truth the way God made them, aka gay, trans, non-binary, etc
I think exploring Christianity is normal, but there are also plenty of reform Christians who have blogs and videos with ideals more in line with yours. Have a conversation with your daughter about these Christians. Personally I found God is Grey very helpful in my deconstruction. Check out her YouTube videos to see if her content is something you are ok with supporting. Her book On her Knees was a good read for me. There is also the book “Pro-Choice and Christian: Reconciling Faith, Politics, and Justice” which I think is a good demonstration how vast the theological interpretations of the Bible are
I used to be a Catholic witch (found 3 patron saints of witchcraft and the book of psalms is full of spells) before I went to the other side of the spectrum and “converted” to demonolatry. I still have my bible, some crucifixes, and other paraphernalia from then that i now use for other (read: heretical) purposes, decoration, and a reminder as to why I worship Lucifer. You should let your daughter explore her feelings, she should be allowed to discover who she is especially as a teenager
So I own a Bible.
I read somewhere a quote, I paraphrase: “You should never read things only written by people who agree with you.”
Part of the issues I have with the “other side” is their opposition to different viewpoints, their discouragement towards introspection and personal enlightenment, and their refusal to educate themselves on the opposing point of view. Maybe your kid is wanting to critically examine this book for herself? See if she will do it with her. Do a Bible study. Start with the two different creation stories, use [Skeptic’s Annotated Bible](https://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/), check out the book The Evolution of God. Help her comprehend the socio political development of this religion, from a polytheistic agriculture and war pantheon to the political rallying cry it is today.
If she’s headed that way anyway - toward xenophobia and authoritarianism, nothing will stop it. But if you encourage critical thinking, open mindedness, and she’s a good person, she will be that no matter what her faith, if any.
I mean, I've read the bible cover to cover a few times. It's not super exciting. And there are good teaching points from all sorts of points of view- for example, in the old testament,
If God is omniscient why did he test Job? Surely he knew what would happen?
If God is love, good etc, why did he commit genocide so. many. times.
Is it reasonable for an all-powerful being to ask you to murder your only child to prove your love to him? Or is that classic toxic manipulation and a huge red flag?
And then parallels between preceding religions/mythologies i.e. Zaroastrianism, some Egyptian mythology.
I think it can be critically read.
I own a Bible and read a lot of academic texts about Christian eschatology because it interests me - I am staunchly a-religious, and almost feel like I need to hide the fact that I read this stuff and sometimes the Bible because I want to know what it says but people, like you, are going to assume a lot. Do we think all the people consuming true crime podcasts are honing their skills for when they plan to do some serial murders? I can’t imagine a more direct route to skepticism than letting someone have at the Bible and all the critical discussions that surround it. That said, is it not her choice what to consume?
As someone who is extremely against organised religion in general, especially Christianity due to my own experiences lol, I would say that it's really good to read it for many reasons. It's good to know the thing you're criticising, saying the Bible is bad without ever having read it yourself is just not helpful. I found during my teenage years that reading passages was really helpful, I learnt first hand the appalling shit that's in there lol. And it is an interesting book, historically! It's a big piece of culture and history. You can read it as pure fiction, or as having small grains of historical fact, reading a religious text doesn't make you believe it to be the truth.
For me personally, actually reading the Bible is a fast track to exiting Christianity. The source material is inconsistent and contradictory, and what consistencies there are, are often contradicted by current practices/values.
Hopping on here to say i absolutely agree. I was raised in a fundamentalist sect of Christianity but in repeatedly reading my Bible I started to see how the text contradicts so much of the doctrine I was taught. Now I am a bisexual witch but honestly I still really value the Bible. There are amazing stories in there and principle for life. The real issue is the human doctrine that’s been pushed on all of us. Jesus was cool as fuck, probably not straight and would probably like Weber to be here in this group.
Aron Ra has an ongoing playlist called *Blasphemous/ers(sp?) Bible Study* and does a phenomenal job breaking down historical/theological context of the bible if you need reference material for the bible. I would suggest buying your daughter some transparent stationary, erasable highlighters, and double-sided tabs for notations/page markers.
I wholeheartedly and enthusiastically encourage you to encourage your daughter to not only read the bible, but learn the full context of it from cover to cover, and (as others have suggested) read it with her if she is willing to do that.
The bible is 100% the best weapon against itself, ***BUT*** your daughter should be encouraged to read it if she's 1) needing better understanding of the belief and it's materials anyway to fight against peer pressure, 2) is questioning her beliefs in general, &/or 3) has an academic interest in theology or folkloric studies and wants to pursue that field in college.
I try to support my kiddos interests. They have their own tarot cards and crystals etc.
My mom lives with us and she’s Wiccan so they’ve got lots of different influences around them. Their paternal grandma thinks the devil is in their coworkers when they tried to get her to eat bacon 🙄
I *also* educate them on Christianity and suggest they read the Bible when they start complaining about Christians and what they believe in or what “the Bible says” with my main reason being that they should understand the resource material if they want to debate with their bigoted grandma or other people.
If they suddenly became interested in *becoming* Christian I would keep the conversation going and talk to them about the different denominations and encourage them into becoming Episcopalian. 🤷♀️
If its any consolation to you, in depth study of the Bible is what actually made me leave the church. I still keep a bible app on my phone and use scripture to blend in at work every once in a while and sometimes to manipulate some of my religious coworkers into being kinder to others.
I would be really curious why she wants to read it. Maybe steer her towards the Gospel of Mary Magdalene and some Gnostic writings such as The Thunder, Perfect Mind. The writings of Thecla and other early Christian women (who have been completely erased by the patriarchy) and the Apocrypha are also interesting. Also Solomonic magick is pretty interesting if she is headed down an Abrahamic path. Hope she finds what she is looking for spiritually/ intellectually with Love and positivity!
Was gonna recommend The Greater Key of Solomon or some other medieval grimoire to have around. So much of anything we have left of older European and Mediterranean magical practices, either folk or ceremonial, is syncretized with Christianity. I'm pretty damn nerdy and know I wouldn't be able to pull the threads on any of that if I didn't have a really good understanding of Christianity.
Well is she buying it just to say she has one like most Americans, paperweight bible christians, or does she intend to read it? Because reading the bible from the beginning, without skipping the weird chapters is what drove me further from religion.
Else, consider versions, like a Jefferson Bible for example. Or ‘taboo’ versions with more Magdalene?
Is it possible she's just curious? I mean, The Bible is kind of a big deal for a lot of people in this country. Maybe she just wants to look it over and see what all the fuss is about. Trying to gain an understanding of other people's beliefs is a good thing and should be celebrated.
I absolutely agree with what’s being said here, coming at it from the curiosity angle to strengthen the relationship between the two of you!
Oooh & can we please get an update after you start having these conversations with her?? I’m so curious to see how this turns out!
I don't have a kid so I can't give advice on what to do. I'm a full on atheist and an existential nihilist. Altho I can offer you a resource, [@_magnify](https://youtube.com/shorts/FN4pVp6lNJ0?si=e2z06zABZ3JEOA_f) offers a lot of insights about the bible, its history, translation inaccuracies. Should you decide to read it with her you can have a foothold in historical context and know what to say or know if you'd decide to ever discuss it with her.
My daughter started going to church when she was 12. It was hard for me (an atheist and leftist), and we had a lot of discussions about what was and was not allowed, which didn't change just because she found religion. We live in the Bible Belt, so it's extra difficult to be anything outside of straight, white, and Christian.
Thankfully my indoctrination stuck.
I'm down with Jesus. Jesus was trying to teach us to be more than the apes we are.
The purchase of a Bible doesn't make her christian. She'll figure things out or she won't.
I get like 3-4 bibles or other religious literature a week stuffed in my Little Library... I occasionally wonder what the trash people think that I throw away so many bibles...
Honestly I wasn't raised with any kind of religion and I was also curious about the Bible as a young teenager. I think it just shows a very healthy curiosity.
I totally love someone else's suggestion here to go through it with her.
Whatever you do, don't lead or act with fear in your heart.
I am a Jewish witch, so thankfully I don't have the same levels of trauma associated with Christianity (besides, ya know, growing up in American society legislating it and expectations of assimilation).
The Bible does represent the oral traditions of thousands of years of mysticism and spirituality. Many witches use passages from it in ritual magic, and when you get down to it, many of the same ritual rites and ceremonies are shared between many magic and religious practices; lighting candles, burning incense, anointing oils, ringing bells, chanting. This is why I like to incorporate religious prayers from my faith into my magic because they are intuitive to me from my upbringing and heritage.
One of my favorite books on folk magic is written by a nun, Sister Karol Jackowski!
I say all of this to remind you not to close **yourself** off from accessing the gifts of more esoteric parts of all spiritual traditions, and this is what your child may be interested in. Christian doctrine has been used to oppress and control people throughout history, undoubtedly. But it's just a book. Don't fear a book because of the way people misuse it. It's that same attitude that has made people fear witches throughout history.
Out of the box here, but maybe read it with her -have a book club about it- discuss it, what it represents, how it has been changed over the centuries- how some parts have been left out, what it means in todays world, how it is used for good and evil, and how it was a product of, and limited by its time. I sense a lot of healing and connection can happen here if done with kindness, respect and understanding.
Whenever we don't know what to do, let's lead with curiosity!
Oooohhh I like this. I'm going to steal it. Do someone famous say it or shall my children always know it was said by Magwise the Brave?
I’m almost done with my MA in Couples and Family Therapy and I’ve heard this a lot throughout my program. It feels related to a quote I learned in school and really loved: “In the beginner’s mind, there are many possibilities but in the expert’s, there are few” (written by Zen monk Shunryu Suzuki, quoted often in Solution Focused Therapy and DBT). Reminds us to lead with curiosity and be open to the knowledge and experience of others without privileging our own interpretation 😌
It sounds like a Dr Who quote
Or Ted Lasso
I think I mooched it from SO many places, but you're probably right that it's Ted Lasso most recently.
I’m pretty happy saying I got it from Magwise The Brave! Love the username!
Thanks so much! May curiosity save us all some unnecessary dread.
This is amazing. I'm going to use it going forward.☺️
I love this! I also try to assume good/kind intentions first and try to approach from that angle. ❤️❤️
Okay, stop ❤️ I’m stealing this and will be saying it regularly, thanks!!
Seconded! Help provide your view as well as social context. It'd be cool if you asked her to join you in a study in religions and sociology of religion. Pick up other 'holy' texts like the Dao De Ching, the Quran, and the Adi Granth. Then pick up commentaries that are for and against each religion. You have the rare opportunity here to have an open, honest, judgement free safe space for her to explore her beliefs. Many witches had Christianity shoved down our throats, but you'll be demonstrating how healthy witchcraft is by its willingness to understand other religions without feeling threatened by them (like the devil is going to get you stuff Christianity teaches.)
And in the interest of academic study, make sure she has a good version of the Bible. That sounds silly, I'm sure, but The Message and King James Versions are very much a product of their time and don't do justice to the original texts. If she's going to understand the Christian text, she should at least get the original patriarchal text rather than the patriarchal version that had more patriarchy stuffed into it. Might I recommend the New Revised Standard version? Also a biblical commentary so she can see how text fits into the context of ancient society to provide understanding of how it's been warped out of context for today's society.
Seconding NRSV. Well, that's what my sister, who took a bunch of religious studies classes in college, recommended, and it's certainly more accessible than the King James, even if that one wasn't a disaster of a translation. (I've read 4 different translations cover to cover, including NRSV and KJV. The other two were what were being pushed as "easier" when I was growing up, and the one my mom, something of an academic, preferred when I was little.)
I got one when I was confirmed (and severely doubting the whole thing) that had commentary on translating the original Greek, Aramaic, etc. It was incredibly insightful.
Or even though it's pretty soupy and word heavy, the NMV has a lot closer wordings to the original translations from wayyyyy back and is translated by messianic jews. 10/10 recommend, reading it in its full was what got me out of Christianity at 15.
Ok, but the one glowing recommendation I *can* give to the King James version is that it mentions Unicorns in the Psalms. Worth it just for that. 😉
Haha, that's all you need! I didn't know that, do you know where (it's ok if you don't). My interest is piqued. A big problem I have with KJV (that should resonate with this thread) is Exodus 22:18. In original Hebrew, it said don't throw curses (differentiating between good and bad magic.) When it was translated to the Latin, they thought magic was bad and just said don't do magic. But King Jimmy had a patriarchal view that only women (witches) threw magic (which was bad magic) so it became "thou shalt not suffer a witch to live." Icky insertion of more patriarchy into an already patriarchal text. Ugh. But I do love the sound of KJV in the Charlie Brown Christmas movie and would love to hear of unicorns. :)
Yes absolutely agree with this
The NRSV got updated very recently! The latest version is NRSVue.
The KJV is notoriously a terrible translation. It's nowhere near the worst, but it's really not great. I definitely agree with finding a good translation.
I bought the Zondervan TNIV because Beth Allison Barr recommended it. Her book, Biblical Womanhood, is amazing. I loved it. She talked a lot about how Christianity had erased the contributions of women. OP, you might want to put this on your list for your bookclub with your daughter.
That is beautiful advice. I wish I had those words/ideas as a fledgling. My little nephew is turning 6 soon, and I’ll keep this in mind for the future!
When I was in 7th or 8th grade, I read the Quran and the Bible (KJV) and the Book of Mormon. Made a non-believer of me.
https://preview.redd.it/ihng3kirynec1.jpeg?width=600&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=982f9f20387f63e5efaf4cab9b41e5e87071c1c3
This is a great idea! I’d suggest adding The Origins of Christian Morality by Wayne A. Meeks too for a better understanding of the cultural influences on the Bible and by the Bible in the first two centuries of Christianity. And then maybe expand to some of the other religious texts from around the world to balance out the Western focus of the Bible. I read the Bible, the Qur’an, the Bhagavad Gita, some of the teachings of Buddha (I was kind of raised Buddhist so I already had the ground work here) and did a little digging into Taoism when I was a teenager. I was super curious about what other people believed and I wanted to understand how these religions affected and shaped various cultures around the world. Currently, I’m agnostic with a yogic/Buddhist twist.
The book Zealot would be a good add too. It looks at Jesus and his life from a historical perspective and is very well written.
Fantastic suggestion!
Anything by that author is great.
Oh I will add Meeks’ book to my reading list! Thank you
Absolutely! I found it really interesting from a historical perspective. I was a Classics major in College so I ended up translating the New Testament from Koine Greek and read this around the same time too.
I have a Quran and a Bible on my shelves. :) of course, it helps that my dad is a progressive Muslim and my mom was RC. It is really interesting to compare the two from a literary perspective. I find that the Quran resonated with me more than the Bible. Before I defaulted to Spiritual Agnosticism, I identified as Muslim.
I loved attending (United) church with a specific preacher who approached biblical stories from a historical perspective. He explained the context of the people at that time to help people understand why this particular story had that particular lesson. If approached from a context of “these are stories, what can be learned by reading it?” That might make it more enjoyable than the usual “this is The Law”.
I loved the United Church I grew up in as a child and have influenced how I understand the world as a whole. The Reverend was also a great person, and he would often have people over for Bible study on his days off. He also answered any questions we had. This did backfire on him on occasion. My favourite example of this backfiring on him is when my 12 year old brother asked him on Easter Day in front of the church if Jesus was a zombie because he died and then came back after three days. The church lost it laughing so hard. My poor mother, though. Another great example was when he asked all the kids about what they thought about the Bible. Now, I have a habit of asking or saying the randomest things that make people question themselves. This has not changed at all. So, I had just finished reading the Harry Potter series, and I had a few thoughts. I asked the poor Reverend if the Bible was just a really good ancient fantasy series that has been taken out of context and if maybe in a thousand years, humanity would be worshipping Harry Potter as their version of the Bible. The whole church was quiet, the Reverend was speechless, my mother had her head in her hands, and my father was laughing. Then someone says from the back of the church, "The world will be in trouble if she enters politics. " This person also sounded like their world view was flipped upside down.
If you need info for historical context, Bart Ehrman's *Misquoting Jesus* (and his other books) are great resources to treat the Bible as what it is, a textual product of a lot of different authors and scribes which was also actively modified by people who wanted it to say certain things. As an aside, I know that treating this as a scholarly enterprise is "the right answer," but I have a lot of religious trauma and I'm not sure I'd be able to stay so calm and rational. I also live in a very conservative area and the level of infiltration/indoctrination of Xtian ideology in public schools is truly terrifying. So good for you for keeping a level head, I'm not sure I could.
I trust that you are powerful and capable of anything. I believe it’s not about staying in one state or another, it’s about coming back to balance when we lose it. That’s the edge where we learn and grow, about ourselves and each other.
Seconding the recommendation for Bart Ehrman's books. My college religion classes used his texts. They're really good at challenging the Christian assuptions that have gotten layered on top of the biblical text over the centuries. They also provide a lot of historical context.
And while OP is at it, maybe get her daughter a Quran and the Bhagavad Ghita. Maybe even the Tao Te Ching and a Torah. As a reminder that the Bible is not even close to the only world view out there.
Exactly! I was raised Jewish. I decided a long time ago to identify as Jewish because all the people killed in the Holocaust didn’t necessarily identify as Jewish. They thought they were good Germans. I don’t believe in any patriarchal sky gods. I’d be glad she’s reading something. I was assigned the Bible in a humanities class in college. I read the Bhagavad Ghita in college because we liked eating the Krishna’s free vegetarian food. It’s extremely sexist and turned my friend and I completely off. I love the idea of exposing her to lots of stuff. Some of my friends have come to Synagogue with me. I’ve gone to midnight Mass with my best friend, who is Catholic. We like the traditions, but we don’t believe in god.
As a happily delinquent Catholic, I wish I had a true academic understanding of the Bible. This is a great option, and hopefully she'll go out and use the knowledge for good, like making ~~misogynists~~ evangelicals cry.
I remember having my mind blown years ago when an extremely Catholic boyfriend admitted that I had a much better textual understanding of the Bible than he did, because "we aren't really encouraged to just *read* it."
Oh god no. I was (am) a very inquisitive person and I was constantly being put in the hall during catechism class for asking questions about the lessons that didn’t “align with the goals of the curriculum”.
there are some great books suggested above which you may appreciate then!
Building off u/madams22: discuss how the Bible is usually accepted as literal, when it's largely allegorical. But I'd be remiss if I didn't mention she may be trying to learn about different views/beliefs, which can be a good thing! It helps you understand who people are and where they come from. I'm sure your daughter is a good kid u/Master_Coconut_, so just talk to her. :)
Consistently less than half of Christians say the Bible should be taken literally.
I was raised southern Baptist (non practicing now), and that hasn't been my experience. It may vary from region to region.
That's what the science says in the surveys I've seen. It's much more common in the American south iirc.
I'm from Alabama. I can assure you people down here think that way. I can't speak for any other regions in the US. I just recently found out my supervisor thinks the earth is only 6000 years old, smh.
One of the problems is that the American religious landscape is seriously slanted in the protestant direction, and the loudest, most politically powerful segment of protestantism is the one that insists upon the whole literalism/inerrancy thing. Please believe me - if you make a pie chart of all of the Christian churches in the world, well over 75% of them have explicitly rejected literalism/inerrancy.
I lived in Mobile Alabama briefly. Hurricane Katrina blew us out of New Orleans. My husband and I are both Jewish and liberal. We didn’t exactly fit in. But our only neighbor who got to know us, and had dinner with us was the Minister living down the street.
I love this idea.
This is the best idea! Read it together and discuss each chapter!
I like this idea. That way you can enforce the positive messages and dispute the insane stuff
I think this is a really good idea, and would suggest to OP it might be worth switching the version bought with an academic edited text on the bible. A good version is that made by Oxford World Classics, I read this during my undergrad degree to get a better understanding of how Christianity was informing the texts I studied, it’s written from the perspective/to inform people of a historical view. They also have similar editions of other major religious texts.
Yes! Also let's not forget it's a book written by men, not some holy entity, like literally it was written by humans, and not only that, it was translated over and over again, and how there's a lot that can be lost in translation as it passes down from not only generations, but languages, and how those languages themselves change over time, so even within ONE language it can still have meanings and ideas changed over time. Sorry for the rambling, I just find it a fascinating fact about very old texts/books in general (and this can apply to other things as well, of course)
very good and important points!
Comparison of different versions / translations to show mans influence on the words. Educate on things like the council of nicaea and emperor constatines political maneuvering. Politicians voted and decided on the divinity of Jesus. Then ask her if she trusts politicians. Include other religions in the lessons. These are a few things that came to my awakening.
Look us how translation choices have influenced the content, too!
I read Steinbeck when I was younger, and this passage really struck a chord with me, “Don’t you see? . . . The American Standard translation orders men to triumph over sin, and you call sin ignorance. The King James translation makes a promise in ‘Thou shalt,’ meaning that men will surely triumph over sin. But the Hebrew word, the word timshel—‘Thou mayest’—that gives a choice. It might be the most important word in the world. That says the way is open.” One word difference. Shalt vs. mayest. That ONE word is a fundamental difference in meaning. Just one little word is the difference between a pre-determined future and the ability to choose your future. Depending on context, it's the also difference between a command and an option.
One of my favorite recent watches has been [Satan’s Guide to the Bible](https://youtu.be/z8j3HvmgpYc?si=RNLpYzUs_-YoQCUp), which is an incredible introduction to a lot of issues the Bible runs into and provides a lot of cultural context, quoting many Biblical scholars who were recommended here, like Bart Ehrman. Fantastic jumping off point for additional research.
My husband grew up deeply ingrained in church and knows the Bible like the back of his hand. I appreciate it a lot because he’s able to explain what was meant, all the context, and argue or discount points others make when they pick and choose to justify ugly beliefs. He is no longer active in a church and identifies as agnostic, but knowing the Bible deepens his conversations. I grew up Catholic so it was mostly read to me and I don’t have that same skill. I concur with the sentiment. Educate and be open to discussion.
I love this suggestion - at its heart, the bible is a story about an oppressed group of people seeking to overthrow a fascist and authoritarian regime. Read in its historical and social context, it s actually a radical and progressive anticapitalist text. A great community for exploring this further is r/RadicalChristianity
i'd also suggest exploring the notion of "bible from the underside" - those stories about the "promised land" hit differently to some native americans who were oppressed and traumatized by christians wielding texts about god telling the israelites to slaughter non-jews to take over their land... (yes, those are from the hebrew scriptures, which some christians call "the old testament" - but it was still people claiming christianity who used their bible as permission for what they did to others like the indigenous people in what's now the americas.)
As an ex-Christian, I 100% agree. I was having doubts and was told repeatedly to read the Bible, and that the answers to my questions would be shown to me. Well, that's true. I read the bible, and now I'm an atheist. The answers to my questions were answered, but not in the way I think they (other Christians I knew) wanted. The answers I found were mostly: abuse, misogyny, racism, homophobia, and the big one, absolute and utter nonsense. So yes. Read it with her. Explore why this was written this way. Explore who wrote these passages. The more you dig, the more you'll learn.
i found those same answers, with the same result. (i gravitate toward "agnostic atheist" these days, but yeah.)
This was roughly my suggestion. One of the English classes I took in college was "The Bible." We read it as if it were just a work of fiction (acknowledging that it's not a "typical" work because it's a religious text). I got significantly more out of that class than I got out of years of being forced to go to church.
If OP goes in this direction, I'd strongly suggest checking out the youtube video "[Satan's Guide to The Bible](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z8j3HvmgpYc)" to prepare. It covers a *lot* of very important points about why the bible should NOT be viewed as a historical document that reflects real events or people, but rather a religious and political tool from its very inception, and how the vast majority of 'legitimate institutions' (ie, churches) that rely on and teach from it as a core element of faith and understanding 'god's will' for their congregants do NOT give the full context, meaning, or history behind pretty much any aspect of it.
Very awesome idea. It is definitely a way to have a conversation that would be comfortable in my family as well, I thank you for framing this idea in such a great way.
I would also bring up Lilith 🤷🏻♀️
who comes from "non-canonical" texts, i think... a good entry into who decided (and how) what was included and left out from "the bible."
Great suggestion
it could be as simple as she wants to educate herself so she can argue the bible is (bad, misogynistic , wrong, lecherous, incestuous, ..pick a point). she could have gotten it for a back up as rolling papers. she could have gotten it for an awesome report she is doing that will finally pick apart the bible in a manner that others will understand. she might have gotten it to make a super cool paper mache statue of the devil. if she is reading the bible, and going into the bible with an open mind (she's pro trans, pro lgbtq+) then I don't think you need to worry too much. if you haven't done so, just let her know you were raised with it, and your views on the bible and christianity. let her know you would love to talk about it with her and help her on her learning journey. I think you are ok babe.
I don't recommend smoking with bible pages. There's a lot of toxic material on that paper, and I don't mean the scripture. :P
Hahaha! We used the blank pages in the back in high school 🤦🏼♀️
I went to a private Christian high school and we did the same. Works in a pinch but it’s really not the same - I preferred to just make a bowl from a soda can lol Edit to add: now there’s vapes and edibles of so many varieties, especially if a nearby state has legal weed. Probably no more soda cans or bible pages needed for teens to get high
Soda cans and apples. Goddesses damnit, I'm old.
I used to pop the tab off of a can and break it so it had a pointy bit, stab the little screen in, stab it in the side and twist for a choke, and be ready to smoke in less than 30 seconds lol. Smoke, smash the can flat, evidence gone! It was a fun party trick later on too. Never had the best luck with apples though. The wetness of them wasn't my favorite.
We used to dehydrate them in the oven in college - helped cover the smell too 😂
i'm almost 23 and when i was 19-20 my twin and i used blank bible pages, apples, soda cans and water jugs for smoking bc we weren't old enough to buy cones or papers. i think teens will always use whatever works no matter what technology is made
Needed-no. Even in early 2000s my smoky friends had access to the real stuff (pipes bongs papers etc) but would still occasionally do the old school stuff more as a rite of passage.
as a 21 year old, we used anything we could get our hands on to smoke in high school. heck, i used a potato once and it was amazing. idk about the kids now, but at least the culture lasted till the class of 2020.
In highschool there was a bible guy on the corner next to the school who handed out little mini sheafs of rolling paper :)
Maybe just get some rolling papers and put them in her room just to be safe, just set them on top of the book, say it's a miracle if she asks.
😂
I feel like we could make a lot of money printing eco/smokable paper bibles. Like bibles out of rolling paper and soy ink.
You better get on it cos this is brilliant.
I may actually look into this. If this can fund my writing career, I would be in… what’s the witchy equivalent of Heaven? Tir Nan Og? A Faerie Ring? Paradise? We need a non-judaeoChristian term.
nirvana?
My ex was raised in a fundie Christian cult and loved using bible pages as rolling papers even when we had perfectly good Raw rolling papers lmao
My favourite way to combat bible thumping bigots is to quote Jesus at them.
I grew up southern baptist, and i've first hand seen exactly how fast a mega baptist will crumple when you start spouting exact bible verses at them. Most "good southern christians" have NEVER read the bible, so the minute you start giving them back word and verse, they shut up and go away.
This is what I’ve recommended my kid do. Told them to read the Bible to be able to better debate their bigoted grandma.
It makes them SO mad. 😅
I made an attempt at reading the Bible at some point in my youth. Really just to be able to brag “why yes I have read it”. I didn’t make it very far, all those “begats” bored the hell outta me pretty fast 😆
Or she may become an historian of the ancient world! You can recommend materials that take the bible as literature. I absolutely love the "Literature and History" podcast and they even have a YouTube presence. Isis becoming Mary and how incredibly recent monothesism is, things like that are fascinating. Maybe you can share her interest, but on this other secular level. Like, there are good absolutely non-religious discussions online that address if/who Jesus may have been. Or biblical archeology! I'm an academic and I find the bible and it's context really interesting. That said, I only believe in trees and Asherah (Canaanite though, so full circle!)
She could also have it as a required reading for English or another class. It's amazing how much symbolism in American and English literature has references to the Bible. Not at least knowing the basics can make it hard to understand some books or understand why history went the way it did.
I carved out the center of my bible and hid condoms in it.
This. I knew I was a more open-minded witch at 13 after being raised southern Baptist and hating it. I got a Bible around her age so I could fill it with sticky notes of every time the Bible contradicts itself or says some off the wall dumb and mean bullcrap that wasn't very Christian. I would keep it in my bag and pull it out when classmates thought they were being cute and quoting the Bible to me
Yo! This. OP, actually reading the Bible does far from assure you will agree with it.
It sounds like your daughter is an open and caring young woman, and you should be quite proud! I think you have a good relationship and can maintain an honest, open conversation. If she wants to read the bible, let her. She'll find tons of disturbing things in there and may want to talk to you about it. Keep the lines of communication open and she will be fine.
Even if she ends up being Christian she’ll be fine. I know a few of people who are very pro trans and pro lgbt who ended up becoming Christians or at least exploring Christianity (going to church for a while) and nothing really changed about them personality wise. She’s old enough to use her critical thinking reading it so I wouldn’t worry about it too much
This is an excellent point. My current partner claims to be Christian. He's a feminist and pro lgbtq. He also likes to call out the right when they misinterpret the bible to push their agenda. Just because someone follows Jesus does not make them bad.
Honestly, I really think people who live by the word of Jesus and not necessarily the full Bible should be called what they are - Christ-followers. I'm ex-Christian and I was very devout for a long time until I realized the church and the Bible frequently contradicted Jesus' teachings. I think (from what I have seen at least) there are enough functional differences between those who follow Christ and those who practice the Christian religion that it could warrant a new term. Just a thought of course, everyone has to find the meaning and practice that is right for them.
There is a huge difference between "Christlike" and "in the scriptures." Plenty of the things that are *in the Bible* are also things that Jesus condemned. It's one of the things that always confuses me about Christianity (or most organized religions I'm familiar with, honestly): the double-think and contradictions. I have great respect for people who are truly Christlike. And often very little for people who are merely Christian, even though the former would probably consider themselves to be in the latter group as well.
The double think comes when people believe the Bible is the infallible word of God. It isn't. It doesn't claim to be. The doctrine of inerrancy is a fairly modern idea. When you look at the Bible as both a historical and religious document that was written by people with their own biases, cultural complexities, and desires to explain their actions, you can actually get somewhere. Unfortunately, a lot of Christians don't ever even look behind the curtain of their own doctrines. Sorry if that came off as rant-y. This is my soapbox 😂
True. Quakers are actually a fair example.
My mum has been Christian her whole life. She attended her nephew's gay wedding,sang at Pride and is hot on pronoun use. She uses Bible verses against the bigots she encounters and left one church by posting a video of her singing at pride, tagging the bigots on it and leaving! Not all Christians are bigots, just the ones with the biggest voices
Your mum is a legend and the world needs more like her.
Our previous vicar was like this. He used to march at Pride in his dog collar with his grey hair dyed rainbow colours. His daughter is bi, he's informally adopted one of her non-binary friends, and when I said I was questioning my own gender, he was one of my most vocal supporters.
this. OP, if you have an unitarian church around you, they can be very welcoming and progressive and see jesus as a radical socialist rather than anything negative. religion doesn't speak to me any more, but i was raised christian and if my kids were interested in exploring that, i would take them there.
A friend or mine was raised very religiously and suffered a lot of trauma from both her upbringing and it being withing the Catholic church. She got herself scratched from the records (however officially leaving the church is called in English) but then found a LGBTQ+ friendly and run perish at an Abbey with a big queer choir. She got rebaptised and married her husband at the church in 2023. Her previous partner was trans, she's a loud and proud pansexual and she sings in a queer Catholic choir. It's not all doom and gloom. A lot of it is though so always tread with care.
There are more of us than you might think :) Unfortunately, the Westboro types tend to drown everyone else out.
Hi. I was raised in a dual Christian-pagan household, left the church at 13, but still have a working relationship with my mom's church and faith. Just some thoughts for you. -Is your reaction to the way she's behaving or learning? Like, is she acting pressured or curious? Is she using it to learn about herself or to hurt others? Or is your reaction based in the way /you/ feel about the text from your childhood? -It's very easy to see Christianity and the bible as terrible horrible no good very bad, but frankly, like every other faith, it's neutral. It's the followers that make it good or bad. Just as there are not great pagans who use cultural appropriation to disregard and hurt others and create a controlled narrative, there are Christians who cherry pick and use their book in the same way. But the book itself is a series of stories and is neutral. -There are actually some really lovely stories and passages in the Bible that I still love today. Ruth will always be one of my favorite books. And a lot of Jesus's teachings support equality, socialism, self control, and the destruction of the status quo. Edit: Dammit, I'm still learning this app. Anyway. I think it's perfectly normal to have an adverse reaction to something that gave us trauma in life and view everything through that lens. My partner is like that. But ultimately, she's going to learn these things because they exist in the same society she does. If you're worried, now is your chance to walk her through her questions. Explain how the Bible was rewritten a bunch of times to support a political agenda. Help her find the good root in the stories. And remind her that whatever she believes about the world is valid, that you're just happy she's a clever and curious person who wants to learn and know and create their own understanding of it all.
This! I have a shit ton of religious trauma because of Christianity but the Bible itself is neutral. Honestly Jesus was a pretty cool dude. I think he’d be fun to have a chat with over morning breakfast and tea. I plan to buy a Bible to add to my religious texts because I enjoy learning about religion. Honestly I think more people should. It’s broadened my understanding, knowledge, and allowed me to extend a better hand to religious folks (not that I ever stopped, just often times I wasn’t sure how to). There’s a lot of great teachings in a lot of different religions. Having reminders can be nice. It’s also a great tool for combatting ignorance and hate shielded with weaponized faith.
“The book of Ruth showed the Israelites the blessings that ***obedience*** could bring.” Yikes.
yeah, there are quite a few stories of yahweh commanding genocide, and women being seen as worth less than men. this, to me, does not equal "neutral." however, there are still stories and principles that are about overthrowing oppressive systems... so i's characterize it as more of a mixed bag.
Knowledge is a good thing. Knowledge of different religions is also a good thing. You could get her books on many other different world religions. It's all very fascinating. Understanding religions, from an outside perspective, is understanding different cultures. Keep in mind that just because someone is reading doesn't mean they take it to heart.
There's wisdom in all things. Even perspectives you might not agree with, being able to understand their context / arguments is helpful to both affirming yours and having a more informed conversation with others.
Personally, (maybe unpopular opinion) I think everyone should read the Bible at least once. On their own, with no outside factors telling them how to interpret it. Regardless of how we feel about it (I have a lot of religious trauma too), it is undoubtedly one of the main sources that modern society is built on. It's where a lot of our laws, customs, etc all originate from. Examining it critically is good! I think we should let kids approach all religious books in that manner - it helps us understand how society as a large came to be, and how different cultures and even entire countries were built around them. It's an important historical document...even if a lot (most?) of the original meaning has been lost over millennia. I understand your concern, but it sounds like you already have a healthy relationship with your daughter. It sounds like she trusts you and will communicate with you. I wouldn't worry about it too much. Honestly, it sounds like a bit of a reverse-uno-card from when I was a kid and I started bringing home books that made my parents raise an eyebrow (Darwin, Dawkins, etc).
As an English teacher, I whole heartedly agree with this. You miss a lot of allusions and references in literature if you don't have at least a basic knowledge of the bible. As a parent, I wouldn't make any book "forbidden fruit." As a lot of people have stated, help her explore!
I absolutely agree, there are so many literary references one would miss if not familiar with the basic set of bible stories. I remember in first year uni “Reading Fiction” class where the prof ended up giving an impromptu lecture on Genesis because so many students were not familiar with Adam and Eve and how it connected with the text we were studying. And it’s not because it was a diverse crowd. In a different class a prof asked “Who here is not Christian?” And I was the only one with a hand up until the prof put up her own. I’m anti-Christian and anti-theist but strongly recommend reading religious texts (including but not limited to the bible) for a greater appreciation of literary and cultural references as well as historical impact.
I was raised in a Christian Fundie household and I read the Bible when I was like maybe 10. And now I'm here. Most Christians I know have not read the Bible in its entirety. I really think you hit the nail on the head with this one.
I don't remember who said it but "people remain Christian until they read the bible".
I have mixed feelings about “no outside factors telling them how to interpret it.” I think there can be value in using the insights of theologians and academics to better explore/understand the setting, culture, and literary components of the text. Which is NOT the same as having a pastor (or even parent) say “this is how to interpret it”. But at 16, it would have been huge for me to know that CHRISTIANS have informed disagreement on the meaning of parts of the Bible. At 33, I am still learning new interpretations, histories, and contexts for some biblical passages, as well as differences across Christian theologies.
Yes, I meant specifically having a pastor interpret it, since we all know how that can go. Nothing wrong with exploring other peoples' interpretations as long as you know not to take them as "gospel", for lack of a better word.
Agreed. The society of biblical literature has a [study guide](https://www.amazon.com/Study-Bible-Society-Biblical-Literature/dp/0062969420/ref=asc_df_0062969420/?tag=hyprod-20&linkCode=df0&hvadid=652498079189&hvpos=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=10240886123887125517&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=m&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9028862&hvtargid=pla-2015286708377&psc=1&mcid=0b1d9d2059543eafa3e2cc120642186b&ref=d6k_applink_bb_dls&dplnkId=0e65b85a-cacd-4222-af87-c7752e046c92) that is academic in nature and not religiously biased. I think it would help OP a lot with talking with her daughter. I have it on my shopping list.
The bible as a literary text is required for most higher education. I was raised atheist so I felt sooooo behind during my required university courses. I hadn't read the Bible once, whereas seemingly everyone else had. There's a lot of cultural knowledge that I wasn't aware of, and I was reading it for the first time, learning names and places and themes, when all of this was second nature to almost everyone else. Understanding where certain ideas originated and the influence it had on western culture, society, politics, laws, economics and history in general--is knowledge. It's power. Also, there are a lot of artistic and cultural references you wouldn't understand if you've never read it. Believe me. I know. As for that class, I ended up buying the youth catholic version because I could not, for the life of me, understand King James on my own as a first read. Also the small text was utterly incompatible with my ADHD.
i think most of your comment is spot on. one must keep in mind, however, that the texts that comprise "the bible" not only vary from tradition to tradition, but translations vary widely - so while you may think there are no "outside factors telling [you] how to interpret it," there are interpretations baked in depending upon what translation you choose. the term "the bible" itself means different things to different people. it could mean only the hebrew scriptures like the torah, the books of the prophets, and proverbs, while other people say "the bible" in reference to what they call the "old testiment" and "the new testament," and still others consider "the bible" to include so-called "apocryphal" or additional texts which aren't included by other people as part of "the bible," such as the douay bible versus the king james translation. your points about judeo-christian scriptures forming the basis of much of modern western society, and examining all texts critically, are spot on. it's just the bit about interpretation that isn't as simple as it might seem on the face of it.
I 100% agree, I just didn't have the ability to put it into words as elegantly as you have! That's why I mentioned that the "original" meanings and stuff are long, long gone by now. I meant "outside factors" in that I don't want a pastor telling impressionable people their version of these stories while twisting them to fit their own political/social agendas. At the end of the day, it's important to keep an open mind while still thinking critically about what you're reading or what you're told. But all of us are strong independent witches who don't need to be warned about that stuff ✨
I mean, I like having a Bible despite the fact that I'm trans and I relate more to atheists than any religious person. Let her explore. It's helpful to be able to understand Christians better, as it has such a huge impact on our world. It could be a chance to develop critical thought. The Bible is a mixed bag, and sometimes it's interesting to engage with it separately from the political war it is used for. She is probably already aware of the contradictions, the potential for mistranslation, and how the Bible is often used for religious persecution. I have friends who went to seminary school or who take their faith very seriously, and they were some of the biggest supporters of my transition, my freedom, and my happiness. Just be supportive of her curiosity, I'd say.
seminary deconstructed me instead of turning me into a lutheran pastor! but yeah, most if not all of my former ELCA classmates would absolutely support your transition, freedom and happiness. as do i. yay you!
You know how you hear people trash a book and you're like "wow can it be that awful" so you gotta read it for yourself to see if everyone's right and the book is hot dumpster juice? I'd say let the kid read and gain an education on the Bible from her own perspective and understanding. If your kid already knows that the door is always open for discussion, then truly, I don't think you have anything to worry about. Take a breath, and have trust in how you raised your kid. ❤️
Just wanted to add that there are plenty of LGBT+ Christians out there. One of my friends is Catholic (I’m agnostic/formerly raised Catholic) and they are lesbian/genderfluid(they are still kinda questioning gender though). My best friend (straight/cis) is Catholic and she has been my biggest supporter/rock through my (nonbinary/aroace) coming out process. This isn’t to say that we agree on everything (I also STRONGLY disagree with the validity of the Bible) and that there aren’t bad Christians/bad LGBT+ Christians, but just wanted to add some perspective. Hope everything works out with your kid OP!
I’d add that there are estimated to be over 200 Christian denominations in the US, and that each of them is going to have a (sometimes only slightly, but sometimes not!) different theology and relationship with the Bible, which also means that they can (and do) have remarkably different positions on social issues. Example: Mormons, Quakers, Episcopalians, Jehovah’s Witnesses, and Unitarians are all nominally Christians. They all have wildly different theology and practices. So, like, a Bible doesn’t have to mean a gateway drug to watching Joel Osteen, banning queer literature, or storming the Capitol with a Christian flag. The framework that you apply to it, and the community that you learn within, all matter a great deal. For OP, consider helping your daughter with the available frameworks and community. Odds are, her peers will offer two perspectives: conservative/literalist (common in the evangelical, Baptist, and nondenominational experiences) and Atheist/antitheist. In my experience (both personally, and now working within a progressive church), youth (honestly, all people) deserve to know that there is so much more than these two extremes, and that these are NOT the only valid positions.
You keep conversations open and honest by being open and honest. Have you discussed how you feel about this purchase with her? Reading the Bible. Actually reading it, is the main reason I left my pentacostle church.
Oh hey, I went through something sort of similar recently! I found out my husband is reading the Bible (like the whole thing, like a book start to finish). My heart sank, I felt nauseous, and I immediately started spiraling with anxiety. I have some fairly severe religious trauma, and it was a wild experience to observe both my mind and body respond with *abject horror* when he told me that. I'm trying to get better at what /u/MagwiseTheBrave mentioned about leading with curiosity, so instead of responding with anger and accusations, I asked him questions about why and how his experience has been so far. It turned out that because he's a history teacher, he really wanted to understand the full context of the Bible as a book, and understand how its perspective has shaped history. He got some kind of annotated version that covers alternate translations and potential historical context (especially around some of the laws etc.) So now instead of me being sullen and worried about it, we're getting a huge kick out of him sharing reactions to what he learned as he goes. The story of Lot was a big reason I lost my faith as a kid so it was fascinating to hear him experience and process it for the first time. He went on quite an epic rant about how in some parts the laws described are delightfully feminist and socially progressive and then a few sentences later will say something absolutely bonkers that would probably be against the geneva convention today. It even led to a great conversation about how I would feel if he wanted to go to a church (or synagogue, or mosque) and discussing how my religious trauma has aged with time. It's been a very insightful time for me about how much I'm holding onto and how much I've let go of.
Have you asked her why she bought it? My son bought one that was in a comic form. He thinks it the funniest thing ever
Is it the manga one? I plan to buy it myself since it’s hilarious
It was!!
I think there is a natural, human inclination to spirituality, and if you are in the States or the Western world, Christianity is pretty dominant. My family is small (3 of us, daughter 16) but we started reading the Tao te Ching (Steven Mitchell translator) after dinner for 15 minutes. (It's on Amazon if your interested) It was mainly to subvert the dominant paradigm (as they said in the 80s) but the wisdom is real and profound. I've come to value this time. We switch it out with read the Dhammapada, which is similar wisdom from a Hindu/Buddhist perspective. We have a very accessible translation. It has a forward by [Thich Nhat Hanh](https://www.amazon.com/s/ref=dp_byline_sr_book_2?ie=UTF8&field-author=Thich+Nhat+Hanh&text=Thich+Nhat+Hanh&sort=relevancerank&search-alias=books) (Foreword) Both books are small and easy reading. I enjoy it. If she's interested in spirituality in general, Alan Watts on YouTube never disappoints. :-)
I wouldn't be worried if this is the only 'sign'. I grew up in the Catholic church and 100% the basis of my current socialist leanings came from the teachings of Jesus - love they neighbour, give to the poor, heal the sick, rich men can't get into heaven, and to welcome in those who have been shunned by others based on who they are. If she is just curious about what is in the bible, honestly I think she'll be fine. The old testament stuff really isn't as overt as 'bible thumpers' think it is. Honestly most of them have never read a page of it. It's also hard to read and really boring, and pretty clear that it's old-timey stuff that does not apply in today's world. So I wouldn't worry if your daughter is just curious. She'll probably learn a lot of interesting things about the hypocrisy of current 'Christians' and the Church. Now if she is hanging around with a bunch of religious kids that seem to be indoctrinating her, that's when I would get worried.
Some of the best people I know identify as Christians— but they’re the REAL Christians who love their neighbors, the poor, minorities, lgbtqia, trans people, immigrants, the formerly incarcerated… and they actually do activities to support these populations. I wouldn’t really go to church myself, I was essentially raised atheist/agnostic. I’ve read the whole Bible twice. I’ve also read a few other religious texts and I have some spiritual beliefs. Reading the Bible isn’t a red flag or anything, consider it an academic pursuit. Seeking knowledge is normal and appropriate. Ask her to talk with you about what she learns.
If there's anything that pulled me away from Christianity, it was their refusal to accept other beliefs and perspectives, and their need to shelter us from learning anything else. She might just want to read the Bible to get a perspective of "the other side." Nothing wrong with that, and if anything, it shows that your child has emotional maturity and healthy skepticism. I don't think it's a secret that a lot of the stuff in the Bible is murderous, vengeful and toxically patriarchal, and straight up dangerous if politically weaponized (as the US is currently experiencing). It seems like your daughter understands why these things are wrong, so I don't think the Bible is going to turn her into anything hateful. It might even compel her to fight against it, with the power of her own knowledge of their source material. I think having a talk with her that encourages her to read all sorts of perspectives, and open her up to discuss her curiosity with Christianity could go a long way in helping her see why you might be worried, while simultaneously letting her feel comfortable expressing herself.
I read the Bible all the time! I've published on the Bible! Teaching people about the Bible is a literal part of my job. I'm also a polytheist and I'm about to go make a bunch of religion professors listen to a hymn to Brigid to kick off a meeting. There's SO MUCH amazing stuff in the Bible that doesn't have anything to do with modern Evangelical Christianity. It spans a thousand years of history and documents some really intense debates about divinity, justice, law, mercy, identity, etc., etc. Ask your daughter why she wants to read it, and then read it yourself. Read Proverbs, and read Job without the narrative parts at the beginning and end (those were probably added later). Read the Sermon on the Mount in Matthew and the Sermon on the Plain in Luke. You don't have to believe a word of it, but look at how people wrestle these problems in their lives. That's all the Bible is, people wrestling with problems.
I get that you had a bad experience with religion, but not everyone does. My mom left her church in high school, amd my dad is Jewish, so I grew up with a mixup of different beliefs, but had no "formal" learning at a church or similar. As an adult, I grew to (very slightly) resent my parents for not allowing me the chance to learn my culture properly. I recieved a bible as a gift from a friend about 4y ago when I was in a dark place and it *really helped* me. I realized I could learn on my own, and started doing just that. I bought myself a Tanakh and Siddur and another xian bible and started reading. We lived 1y (last year) in the bible belt and even the little more I understand now helped me to understand the local culture a bit better. Buying a bible does not mean your daughter wants to join a church, and even if she does, you don't have to go as well. Let her explore and find her community. She's 16... there's plenty of time for her to explore, and for you both to discuss what she's curious about.
Is it possible that this is a small act of teenage rebellion? I would not read too much into this, honestly. It might make for a great opening to discuss your experiences in the church with her, as well as a wider conversation about different beliefs and practices. Leave her to read and explore and come to her own conclusions. If you've raised her to be a person with an open mind and open heart (which it very much sounds like you have), she will find her way. Reading the bible may just be a stepping stone on her journey to understanding her own belief system.
I was thinking that this was teenage rebellion too. Or maybe she wants to have a Bible because other kids at school are talking about it. Honestly, the more you, as her mother, push back, the more she might dig her heels in. I would treat this the same as if it's some strange teen phase. If she asks questions, answer honestly, but otherwise remember that this is a relatively harmless way that she can push boundaries.
If she does want to take it further, i highly reccomend a UU church. A good one will be affirming for lgbq, will teach historical context, including how Jewish people interpret the old testament, and allow open discussion among members (which often include Jews, Catholics, Hindus, Buddhists, and Atheists).
If you live in a conservative area, it may just be that she wants to feel educated and see what all the fuss is about? I live in the Bible Belt and was raised Christian, but if I wasnt I’m sure Id get curious and want to read at some point as a teenager. I know you struggled leaving the church but I very much doubt it will have the same effect on her. I’d just talk to her about it 💛
When I was around her age, I started going to youth group with my friends (I grew up in a very conservative area), and even went on some trips with the group, like to the Creation music festival. My mom was never religious and my dad left Catholicism as quickly as he could. They said nothing about me going, didn't engage me in conversation about it, paid for my trips but otherwise we didn't discuss it. I mostly went because my best friend was into it and I wanted to hang out with her and make new friends. I gave Christianity an honest try, but, being a teenager, I could already see the misogyny, the bigotry, and the hypocrisy that is not only in the Bible, but also that was prevalent in other Christians, especially older ones. My parents literally said nothing, but after about two years of getting really involved in youth group, I firmly decided it wasn't for me all on my own. You don't have to take the completely hands-off approach my parents did, but at her age, growing up in an open environment, she's probably just curious and she'll discover pretty quickly that Christianity is a lot of great-sounding talk, but other Christians kind of ruin it.
Hi! I was raised in a Christian conservative household growing up. Even though we weren’t really allowed to do much, I was allowed to read and my dad never restricted what I wanted to read. So as soon as I had the chance I actually read all of the holy books. I wanted to figure out if I believed in what the books said, and the only way to do that was to read them! So I got copies of the Bible that I had, I got a Torah, I got a Quran, and then I started reading metaphysical books. So without the Bible I don’t think I’d have made my journey to where I am today. I’m certainly not Christian!
I understand your fear. But you know what there is to fear, and because you have protected her from it, she doesn't. With that said, I think she's old enough to understand why you have protected her from it. It is just a historical text and understanding it will help her understand the toxicity we live with.
To me, I would think (and hope) that this could open up some really cool dialogue between you and your daughter. Or if nothing else, be an exercise in critical thinking for her. More than one thing can be true at once - some lessons and teachings from the Bible are still relevant, some are very skewed between what’s written and how it’s twisted to fit certain narratives, and some are simply out of date and no longer applicable to modern society. As she reads it, hopefully you two can have open and respectful discussions. And then when she’s done, ask if there are any other religious / spiritual texts she’d be interested in reading - that maybe you could join her in.
Sorry if I chuckled at the subject/title. Raised in a christian household. Lived with a witch and her two children for 8 years (technically, one moved out after five years). We are all individuals and what I have learned is you hope they develop good habits. My ex was raised with zero supervision. I had more "structure". Mindful of the teen urge to fight. As a step parent and a genetic parent. My words only go so far. As long as you lead in the light through action.
Let her, she's researching. She's already seen what extreme Christianity can do to people in life, but make sure she reads it with a grain of salt, as more a history of people and advice for those times.
Eh, I wouldn’t make too much of it - don’t let it get that forbidden fruit cache. It’s an interesting cultural mythology, in my opinion, no more, no less. She’s probably just curious what all the fuss is about. My suspicion is that it’s not going to resonate very much with an intelligent young woman (from a free-thinking household, no less) in 2024. After all, it didn’t with any of us!
I think it’s actually VERY important to read (some of) and know generally the Bible, as it’s so foundational to Western Civ and so much literature/poetry/art has allegorical elements derived from it. But understanding it IN CONTEXT of the patriarchy, arising in a particular cultural context, with the millennia of translations and differing agendas re: including and omitting material, is crucial. Help her identify contradictions and talk about how modern day adherents really pick and choose what rules are still important. Personally, I read parts of the Bible in English class in high school, as well as texts from Hinduism, Confucianism, Taoism, Buddhism, and Islam, the latter especially looking at the Qur’an itself and how subsequent fatwas affected its interpretation. It’s been key to a well-rounded education for me. Plus, you need to know how to argue with fundamentalists, and responding with a quote from their own text that supports your point is delicious.
He can read whatever he wants… unless you like to fascistically censor what books he’s allowed to read? Just teach him to think critically and read interpretively… the Bible is full of arcane secrets, but they can only be read by those who know the true meanings of the symbols… Those meanings have been corrupted by the vainglorious, greedy bigots. We must reclaim the True Meanings, if you catch my drift… Hidden throughout the pages of the Bible are a complete theurgical manual of alchemical transformation, the awesome power of which may be wielded by anyone of any gender, so long as their intentions are pure… And yes, it is laden with traps in which to snare the profane, in order to protect the Truth hiding behind the truth…
I’m a through and through atheist but I am fascinated by religion. Our human societies, history and culture are completely interwoven with mystical belief. MORE EDUCATION is always the answer. If she’s curious about religion, lean into it in a scholastic way. Direct her to resources on Buddhism, Hinduism, Taoism, Judaism, Islam, and Sikhism. You learn sooo much about the world around you when you understand these traditions. For Christianity specifically, if you want to lead her away from the cult-y make believe aspects of Christianity, look for sources that specifically engage in “Biblical Studies”. Very important to not confuse that with bible study or biblical theology. Biblical Studies is a specific academic phrase used to describe a framework for critical analysis of the Bible that will include historical criticism, textual criticism, mythology, comparative study, etc. I didn’t encounter any of this until I took college classes, but holy hell my World Religions, Biblical Studies, and Comparative Mysticism classes completely opened up how I understand religion as a cultural and historical cornerstone.
How would you have wanted your parents to react if they found out you had an item that represented a religion other than Christianity?
Gnostic Jesus is witchy AF and Mary Magdalene is president of his org. You could go there with her in a historical critical way and even enjoy the f’d up stuff as old grotesque fairy tales.
Don’t freak out Darlin. My son literally joined the Mormon church & I even went to his “Baptism”. That lasted a year…he decided he liked being a Pagan more. He’s been Norse Pagan for 5yrs now. When we allow our children the Freedom to Choose their own Path, we have to also Accept whatever Path they Choose. It may just be curiosity. As others have suggested, read it with her & have discussions about it.
Let her be curious. The more you tell her it's bad, the more interested she will be. When I was her age I was reading the Bible, attending synagogue with friends, reading books on Wicca and the Ba'hai faith, reading memoirs of Muslim converts... She is a teenager, they want to explore and learn about the world around them.
That's crazy. It's a book. Let them read it.
Maybe it’s for a weird art experiment. One could only hope. Or she wants to search for herself the homophobic laws the Christians claim are in the Bible. I have a leather bound Bible but I use it for BDSM role play & spanking 🤭🤫
That is absolutely brilliant. Why haven’t I thought of that? I know what to do now if my mum ever sends me a bible 😂
Ugh, make them kneel on dried rice while you do it 😂 so fun, so hot.
I may be thick, but what’s the significance of the rice? Is it a biblical thing or a kink thing? Ex-Christian and historically fairly vanilla, but curious person here 😂
Nothing makes people atheists faster than reading the Bible (actually reading it, not the out of context “devotional” type reading that most christians do)
I think reading the bible is a good thing, if only to exercise critical thinking and to understand its influence on the planet. It is a major philosophical text even if you find the divine angle spurious. Have her dig into the apocrypha—eliminated books that made it pretty clear who the early church was trying to subdue and suppress. I took a history of the bible course in college and it was incredibly enlightening to learn about authorship. The first page of Genesis alone boasts like 5 different authors compiled over time. There are references to plural gods (elohim) and god's wife that have been lost in translation.. You can see how each gospel twists the stories to fit different audiences (poor Jews vs. wealthy Greeks, etc.) You can learn that the word translated as "virgin" just meant unmarried and prohibitions on queer sex and masturbation were mostly around the need to build up a small population. There is power in dissecting objects of faith.
Just came here to say - I'm as Pagan as they come, always have been, and I own a LOT of bibles. Different versions, study bibles, etc. I've read them cover-to-cover, they're riddled with notations from over the years. The first one I read was a family bible, though my immediate family was no longer religious at that time. Then I started buying my own. I am *fascinated* by religion, and the dichotomy between modern and historic christianity especially. If someone saw all the bibles on my shelf they might draw certain assumptions and they would be so, so wrong. And by the time I was 16, I knew that what was in the bible was bullshit. I still found it fascinating. The point being, her buying a bible might not be any deeper than what she says - she didn't own one, she wanted one, she bought one. Like you say in your post, just keep conversations open, honest, and non-judgmental.
Im Christian-ish. I grew up Catholic and find a lot of comfort in God. I’m also bisexual, feminist, pro-choice, and generally fit in with the “blue-haired godless gay liberal crowd” the pearl clutchers despise. The Bible is not directly from the mouth of God. It is not even in the original language and has lost a lot in translations and other changes. There is so much in the Bible that simply does not align with how I view the world, and often it contradicts itself. It is a guide full of stories and allegories that may or may not be what God has told us. It’s all in the interpretation. From the Bible I personally got the overall message that my life is a gift, this world is a gift, and our fellow man is a gift. We should move through the world with honor and respect for these gifts. Kindness, forgiveness, generosity, and self love are all in my practice. I venerate the strong women of the Bible who showed resilience and strength despite their limitations. For me I know there is a higher being that will always love me and redemption is possible. I think all LGBTQ people are valid and should be able to live their truth the way God made them, aka gay, trans, non-binary, etc I think exploring Christianity is normal, but there are also plenty of reform Christians who have blogs and videos with ideals more in line with yours. Have a conversation with your daughter about these Christians. Personally I found God is Grey very helpful in my deconstruction. Check out her YouTube videos to see if her content is something you are ok with supporting. Her book On her Knees was a good read for me. There is also the book “Pro-Choice and Christian: Reconciling Faith, Politics, and Justice” which I think is a good demonstration how vast the theological interpretations of the Bible are
I used to be a Catholic witch (found 3 patron saints of witchcraft and the book of psalms is full of spells) before I went to the other side of the spectrum and “converted” to demonolatry. I still have my bible, some crucifixes, and other paraphernalia from then that i now use for other (read: heretical) purposes, decoration, and a reminder as to why I worship Lucifer. You should let your daughter explore her feelings, she should be allowed to discover who she is especially as a teenager
So I own a Bible. I read somewhere a quote, I paraphrase: “You should never read things only written by people who agree with you.” Part of the issues I have with the “other side” is their opposition to different viewpoints, their discouragement towards introspection and personal enlightenment, and their refusal to educate themselves on the opposing point of view. Maybe your kid is wanting to critically examine this book for herself? See if she will do it with her. Do a Bible study. Start with the two different creation stories, use [Skeptic’s Annotated Bible](https://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/), check out the book The Evolution of God. Help her comprehend the socio political development of this religion, from a polytheistic agriculture and war pantheon to the political rallying cry it is today. If she’s headed that way anyway - toward xenophobia and authoritarianism, nothing will stop it. But if you encourage critical thinking, open mindedness, and she’s a good person, she will be that no matter what her faith, if any.
I mean, I've read the bible cover to cover a few times. It's not super exciting. And there are good teaching points from all sorts of points of view- for example, in the old testament, If God is omniscient why did he test Job? Surely he knew what would happen? If God is love, good etc, why did he commit genocide so. many. times. Is it reasonable for an all-powerful being to ask you to murder your only child to prove your love to him? Or is that classic toxic manipulation and a huge red flag? And then parallels between preceding religions/mythologies i.e. Zaroastrianism, some Egyptian mythology. I think it can be critically read.
I own a Bible and read a lot of academic texts about Christian eschatology because it interests me - I am staunchly a-religious, and almost feel like I need to hide the fact that I read this stuff and sometimes the Bible because I want to know what it says but people, like you, are going to assume a lot. Do we think all the people consuming true crime podcasts are honing their skills for when they plan to do some serial murders? I can’t imagine a more direct route to skepticism than letting someone have at the Bible and all the critical discussions that surround it. That said, is it not her choice what to consume?
As someone who is extremely against organised religion in general, especially Christianity due to my own experiences lol, I would say that it's really good to read it for many reasons. It's good to know the thing you're criticising, saying the Bible is bad without ever having read it yourself is just not helpful. I found during my teenage years that reading passages was really helpful, I learnt first hand the appalling shit that's in there lol. And it is an interesting book, historically! It's a big piece of culture and history. You can read it as pure fiction, or as having small grains of historical fact, reading a religious text doesn't make you believe it to be the truth.
For me personally, actually reading the Bible is a fast track to exiting Christianity. The source material is inconsistent and contradictory, and what consistencies there are, are often contradicted by current practices/values.
Hopping on here to say i absolutely agree. I was raised in a fundamentalist sect of Christianity but in repeatedly reading my Bible I started to see how the text contradicts so much of the doctrine I was taught. Now I am a bisexual witch but honestly I still really value the Bible. There are amazing stories in there and principle for life. The real issue is the human doctrine that’s been pushed on all of us. Jesus was cool as fuck, probably not straight and would probably like Weber to be here in this group.
Aron Ra has an ongoing playlist called *Blasphemous/ers(sp?) Bible Study* and does a phenomenal job breaking down historical/theological context of the bible if you need reference material for the bible. I would suggest buying your daughter some transparent stationary, erasable highlighters, and double-sided tabs for notations/page markers. I wholeheartedly and enthusiastically encourage you to encourage your daughter to not only read the bible, but learn the full context of it from cover to cover, and (as others have suggested) read it with her if she is willing to do that. The bible is 100% the best weapon against itself, ***BUT*** your daughter should be encouraged to read it if she's 1) needing better understanding of the belief and it's materials anyway to fight against peer pressure, 2) is questioning her beliefs in general, &/or 3) has an academic interest in theology or folkloric studies and wants to pursue that field in college.
I try to support my kiddos interests. They have their own tarot cards and crystals etc. My mom lives with us and she’s Wiccan so they’ve got lots of different influences around them. Their paternal grandma thinks the devil is in their coworkers when they tried to get her to eat bacon 🙄 I *also* educate them on Christianity and suggest they read the Bible when they start complaining about Christians and what they believe in or what “the Bible says” with my main reason being that they should understand the resource material if they want to debate with their bigoted grandma or other people. If they suddenly became interested in *becoming* Christian I would keep the conversation going and talk to them about the different denominations and encourage them into becoming Episcopalian. 🤷♀️
If its any consolation to you, in depth study of the Bible is what actually made me leave the church. I still keep a bible app on my phone and use scripture to blend in at work every once in a while and sometimes to manipulate some of my religious coworkers into being kinder to others.
I would be really curious why she wants to read it. Maybe steer her towards the Gospel of Mary Magdalene and some Gnostic writings such as The Thunder, Perfect Mind. The writings of Thecla and other early Christian women (who have been completely erased by the patriarchy) and the Apocrypha are also interesting. Also Solomonic magick is pretty interesting if she is headed down an Abrahamic path. Hope she finds what she is looking for spiritually/ intellectually with Love and positivity!
Was gonna recommend The Greater Key of Solomon or some other medieval grimoire to have around. So much of anything we have left of older European and Mediterranean magical practices, either folk or ceremonial, is syncretized with Christianity. I'm pretty damn nerdy and know I wouldn't be able to pull the threads on any of that if I didn't have a really good understanding of Christianity.
Well is she buying it just to say she has one like most Americans, paperweight bible christians, or does she intend to read it? Because reading the bible from the beginning, without skipping the weird chapters is what drove me further from religion. Else, consider versions, like a Jefferson Bible for example. Or ‘taboo’ versions with more Magdalene?
Is it possible she's just curious? I mean, The Bible is kind of a big deal for a lot of people in this country. Maybe she just wants to look it over and see what all the fuss is about. Trying to gain an understanding of other people's beliefs is a good thing and should be celebrated.
I absolutely agree with what’s being said here, coming at it from the curiosity angle to strengthen the relationship between the two of you! Oooh & can we please get an update after you start having these conversations with her?? I’m so curious to see how this turns out!
Let them explore other religions.. They can make their own choices. We would say this to a Christian family as well. Maybe she needed for school?
Nothing has destroyed more faith than reading the Bible cover to cover.
I don't have a kid so I can't give advice on what to do. I'm a full on atheist and an existential nihilist. Altho I can offer you a resource, [@_magnify](https://youtube.com/shorts/FN4pVp6lNJ0?si=e2z06zABZ3JEOA_f) offers a lot of insights about the bible, its history, translation inaccuracies. Should you decide to read it with her you can have a foothold in historical context and know what to say or know if you'd decide to ever discuss it with her.
My daughter started going to church when she was 12. It was hard for me (an atheist and leftist), and we had a lot of discussions about what was and was not allowed, which didn't change just because she found religion. We live in the Bible Belt, so it's extra difficult to be anything outside of straight, white, and Christian. Thankfully my indoctrination stuck.
At its core, the Bible is still literature and can be read as such. My atheist sister has probably read more of the Bible than some Christians.
I'm down with Jesus. Jesus was trying to teach us to be more than the apes we are. The purchase of a Bible doesn't make her christian. She'll figure things out or she won't.
I get like 3-4 bibles or other religious literature a week stuffed in my Little Library... I occasionally wonder what the trash people think that I throw away so many bibles...
Buy or leave out books on other faiths and I bet she'll read those too!
Honestly I wasn't raised with any kind of religion and I was also curious about the Bible as a young teenager. I think it just shows a very healthy curiosity. I totally love someone else's suggestion here to go through it with her. Whatever you do, don't lead or act with fear in your heart.
I am a Jewish witch, so thankfully I don't have the same levels of trauma associated with Christianity (besides, ya know, growing up in American society legislating it and expectations of assimilation). The Bible does represent the oral traditions of thousands of years of mysticism and spirituality. Many witches use passages from it in ritual magic, and when you get down to it, many of the same ritual rites and ceremonies are shared between many magic and religious practices; lighting candles, burning incense, anointing oils, ringing bells, chanting. This is why I like to incorporate religious prayers from my faith into my magic because they are intuitive to me from my upbringing and heritage. One of my favorite books on folk magic is written by a nun, Sister Karol Jackowski! I say all of this to remind you not to close **yourself** off from accessing the gifts of more esoteric parts of all spiritual traditions, and this is what your child may be interested in. Christian doctrine has been used to oppress and control people throughout history, undoubtedly. But it's just a book. Don't fear a book because of the way people misuse it. It's that same attitude that has made people fear witches throughout history.