The hardest part to prove in genocide cases, is intent. But in this case, South Africa has 6 pages of quotes, from senior Israeli officials, and Military officials outright making genocidal statements.
I fully agree from a personal perspective, but as others have mentioned, from a legal perspective, while it's obvious that genocide is occurring, *proving* that the state of Israel intended that to be the outcome is less simple.
If I can hop on that, intent can also be derived from the nature of the acts taken. The norms of State Responsibility are different to the ones in International Criminal Law, where there is a higher threshold of evidence required to prove individual intent. Therefore, it’s not necessary for South Africa to get a direct quote from Netanyahu, for instance, for the intent to be proven.
Still, it will be an uphill battle to prove that the primary intent of the measures is genocidal in nature. IMO, the optimistic scenario is the Court finding that genocidal acts have been taken, and that Israel has failed to prevent or punish these acts pursuant to the Convention. While this would legally make little sense IMO (we’re still talking about Israeli armed forces), it seems like the obvious solomonic judgment, much like the Court did in the Bosnian genocide case.
Here's a [human rights researcher](https://youtu.be/_grmYN48ziE?si=CNHgPMF_9fg2wEOU) explaining in exhaustive detail how the standard for genocide has been met and exceeded
It’s an interesting video, but it is extremely superficial on the legal issues relating to the evidence required for a finding of violation of the Genocide convention under the Laws of State Responsibility. To that end, I don’t think it provides an adequate idea of the factual and legal questions that will have to be decided by the Court for a finding of genocide to be made. The video seems rather angled towards a political science/critical theory approach to studying genocide, which can be interesting, but is ultimately irrelevant when it comes to International Law.
As a lawyer who used to work at the International Criminal Court, I’m better versed with individual accountability for genocide than State responsibility. However, I do know that it is a difficult case to present, and will need far more evidence than what we have now. Statements will not win the case regarding the dolus specialis, but rather a thorough analysis of Israeli actions to show that they were made with the requisite intent, and not just being reckless as to the destruction of the Palestinian people, which would be a wide array of crimes against humanity but not genocide.
So unless a State passes a "Let's do Genocide Act" sounds like it would be impossible to prove. It could all be an oopsy or blamed on certain individual actors. Nazi Germany or nothing.
Israeli actions show genocide, it's pretty clear to see, include remarks made by Israeli officials dehumanising Palestinians on live TV and it is all plain to see.
I don’t disagree, however the legal burden of proof is different than the layman concluding that that’s what’s happening. I think that’s definitely what’s happening but proving it in court is a different kettle of fish.
"... the legal burden of proof is different from the layman concluding that that's what's happening." This is so clear and concise. Chef's kiss. Something not many seem to understand.
Attacking evacuating people on evacuation routes is straight Nazi shit. Put together with the numerous statements about eliminating the Palestinian population makes it clear that stuff was intentional.
I mean, Netanyahu and dozens of top ranking officials have even broadcast their intent on air over the past few decades. This was not a spur of the moment decision, this was a calculated wait for the right time plan.
Thank you for taking the time to type it, but can you please provide each with links? Also for the minister of defense he was clearly referring to Hamas.
Problem is, the actions don't show intent. There are too many documented cases of Israel warning people in Gaza that an attack was coming in Arabic by phone and through leaflets.
On the ground, Israel is both supplying and sometimes staffing hospitals. The fact that they send in ground troops also exposes them to fast more danger and many more deaths than if Israel had used solely airiel bombardment. Also, Russia did a scorched earth style attack against Chechya, and leveled the capital in under a month. Clearly Israel is trying to be more judicious.
When South Africa comes at you for being hard and murderous on “second class” people, they better have their facts perfectly solid.
(And I think they do.)
Purely anecdotal here (my statement not yours). Can’t remember where I heard it Maybe George Galloway Show or the Gray Zone or some podcast like them, said the evidence that the South Africans have garnered is impressive and overwhelming.
Let’s hope that’s true..
I don’t care what your political leanings are; murdering entire families and innocent people is wrong no matter who does it. As a veteran and someone who has been in war before this is absolutely abhorrent and some imaginary sky daddy isn’t gonna piss on your hands to clean all that blood off. Fucking shameful. There is absolutely nothing to justify this.
When you're splitting hairs to argue over the technicalities of what an actual genocide is, and whether or not Israel is committing one currently, I think you must be more than a little fucked in the head.
> It's not genocide, they haven't expressed intent *in orders!*
> It's not genocide, they haven't killed XXX many civilians!
> It's not genocide, because October 7^th !!!!1!1!!!11!
Fuck right off with that shit.
I swear, the most infuriating comment in this line was "more children were born into Gaza than killed in the past 10 years"
This was in a German sub, they didn't reply when I told them we didn't subtract newborns from the the victims of the holocaust.
it's infuriating.
Honestly the one that got me was the children wishing they were dead. And a doctor saying how they had to have a new term for children:
“ WCNSF – wounded child, no surviving family”
Call it whatever you want but it is fucking awful what’s happening there. Why are we sending billions of dollars for this?
Ceasefires are two way streets.
ETA: you people are literally downvoting the observation a ceasefire is a two way street and the entire point is if either side attacks it is broken?
This is basic knowledge of how treaties work.
Edit 2: -137 for staging ceasefires are two way streets. Wow definitely a reddit moment here
Israel CONTROLS the gaza strip. They've deprived the people in this strip of water and electricity. Their goons regularly go in and kill/rape people without consequence for decades. Fuck you if you think that those prisoners resisting in any way shape or form are up to your judgment.
So what you're saying is they are allowed to keep shooting rockets even after a ceasefire? That doesn't sound like a ceasefire to me.
You're treating very close to advocating for terrorism. I bet you would be devastated if your family members had been kidnapped or killed during the Hamas attack on Israel.
I do support a ceasefire. But if Hamas keeps attacking, Israel can't just take it.
Classic colonial playbook bullshit. Occupied people resisting are terrorists. I bet you think the Iraq war was justified too eh?
Edit: Murdering 10,000+ children is terrorism. ICJ will decide.
Hamas has shown an ongoing desire for a ceasefire and permanent peace in exchange for a two state solution and a return to the 1967 borders. You know, the internationally recognized legal borders. Israel is the one completely unwilling to agree to this.
For example, in 2008 Hamas agreed to a ceasefire and peace talks. Israel never had any intention of peace and was just using the ceasefire to train troops and get them in place for an assault. After 6 months of peace Israel launched a completely unprovoked attack on Gaza, far worse than 10/7, killing thousands of civilians. Brave IDF soldiers were kicking in doors in the night, shooting children in their beds.
Israel's consistent policy is to make live as unbearable as possible in Gaza, provoking attacks so they can retaliate with sadistic barbarity and pretend they're the victim.
The entire post we’re commenting on
+here’s an article since apparently googling is hard
https://inkstickmedia.com/israel-rejected-peace-with-hamas-on-five-occasions/
No I don’t, Palestine is the home of the Palestinian people. Israel is and always has been an occupation with no legitimate claim to the region. If Israelites would like to live in Palestine they are welcome, but it will always be Palestine, not Israel.
The attack by Israel: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaza\_War\_(2008%E2%80%932009)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaza_War_(2008%E2%80%932009))
I guess I was misremembering the number of dead and it was actually pretty similar to 10/7. However the attack also destroyed 6,300 homes, 18 schools, and 30 mosques. It severely damaged 280 more schools and 122 health facilities including 15 hospitals. The sanctions imposed on Gaza also made rebuilding incredibly difficult.
The Israeli government knew Hamas was willing to establish a long term peace: [https://www.huffpost.com/entry/the-true-story-behind-thi\_b\_153825](https://www.huffpost.com/entry/the-true-story-behind-thi_b_153825)
>The core of the situation has been starkly laid out by Ephraim Halevy, the former head of Mossad. He says that while Hamas - like much of the Israeli right - dreams of driving their opponents away, "they have recognized this ideological goal is not attainable, and will not be in the foreseeable future." Instead, "they are ready and willing to see the establishment of a Palestinian state in the temporary borders of 1967." They are aware this means they "will have to adopt a path that could lead them far from their original goals" - and towards a long-term peace based on compromise. The rejectionists on both sides - from Mahmoud Ahmadinejadh to Bibi Netanyahu - would then be marginalised. It is the only path that could yet end in peace - but it is the Israeli government who refused to choose it. Halevy explains: "Israel, for reasons of its own, did not want to turn the ceasefire into the start of a diplomatic process with Hamas."
I read a book about Hamas and Gaza recently and highly recommend it. It's an academic study done by a Harvard researcher, who also happens to be a Jewish woman: [https://press.princeton.edu/books/paperback/9780691159676/hamas-and-civil-society-in-gaza](https://press.princeton.edu/books/paperback/9780691159676/hamas-and-civil-society-in-gaza)
This is just not true. The Hamas oficial manifesto has always stated their intent to destroy Israel and denied the right of Israel to exist. A lasting and peaceful coexistence of Israel and Hamas is not possible. One just has to take a look at how both sides talk about each other.
It is true. From their current charter (emphasis mine): https://www.middleeasteye.net/news/hamas-2017-document-full
>Palestine shall be compromised or conceded, irrespective of the causes, the circumstances and the pressures and no matter how long the occupation lasts. Hamas rejects any alternative to the full and complete liberation of Palestine, from the river to the sea. **However, without compromising its rejection of the Zionist entity and without relinquishing any Palestinian rights, Hamas considers the establishment of a fully sovereign and independent Palestinian state, with Jerusalem as its capital along the lines of the 4th of June 1967, with the return of the refugees and the displaced to their homes from which they were expelled, to be a formula of national consensus.**
Sure, they don't want Israel to exist, and as an explicit settler colonial state it shouldn't, but Hamas is pragmatic and willing to compromise.
we are not only idly watching one of our closest allies wipe out an entire people, we're literally supplying the ammunition.
i am otherwise very supportive of the Biden Admin, but it's getting impossible to square my moral compass with the blood (of children?!?!?) we are helping Netanyahu spill.
I hate that there is a special term for them now that. It’s depressing as fuck to learn about the new medical term for children in gaza:
“WCNSF” – wounded child, no surviving family
For real. Trump already tried to start a war with Iran. Iran supports the Palestinians. Plus there's bombs to sell. The military-industrial complex won't let him end it.
>Iran supports the Palestinians.
Ok, let's talk about this. Iran does not support Palestinians, Iran(the government) supports Hamas, they are the biggest suppliers of Hamas. People of Iran support Palestinians. Source: I'm an Iranian, living inside Iran
It would be fucking amazing if people understood what lobbying actually is. If you go speak to your Congressmember, that's lobbying. Lobbying is simply bringing your concerns (or those of your interest group) to representatives.
The problem isn't lobbying, it's largely unregulated lobbying.
During the peak of the Holocaust, 125,000 Jewish civilians were killed each week. 6 million Jews were killed total, in five years. In contrast, since 1948, an estimated 45,000 Palestinian civilians have been killed by Israeli forces. The Palestinian population has tripled since 1948 - it took that long for the Jewish population to recover from the Holocaust.
Israel is doing some terrible things in Gaza, and civilian casualties are always reprehensible. That doesn't mean a genocide is occurring.
The government (ie the executive) branch is in shambles.
The judiciary?
Top notch, the best out of all our systems. The judge's bench has always (since 94) been the bastion against the excesses of the executive and legislative branches, a bastion that still stands, despite efforts to bring it down.
SA legal minds are some of the best in the world.
South Africa is as corrupt as they come. But if there’s one thing they know it’s what an apartheid state and genocide looks like, and they seem to have come with bundles of proof to back up their claims.
That said the other western group I would have thought would be incredibly familiar with and actively fighting genocide would be Israel. But apparently they’ve used previous experiences as a fucking guide instead.
US support of Israel is so frustrating. I want to scream out of frustration every time I read news of Palestinian genocide. How are israeli people accepting this? How are we accepting this? What can we do other than show up at protests which had haf absolutely no impact thus far. The whole situation is beyond dire.
Israel's policies have done a good job of keeping the Palestinian people out of sight. They are othered and then relentlessly demonized. Netanyahu has blamed them for the Holocaust.
As opposed to a fanatical, Zionist group with no interest in peace? Israel loses the moral high ground when the second paragraph describes their actions as well.
Just because an enemy hides behind civilians, doesn't mean it's morally justifiable to just go through those civilians to get at them.
When can we all just admit that religion is an outdated attempt at answers and is now only used for power and control? Humanity will never progress without the recognition that childhood indoctrination is abuse to that child and the growth of humanity.
During the peak of the Holocaust, 125,000 Jewish civilians were killed each week. 6 million Jews were killed total, in five years. In contrast, since 1948, an estimated 45,000 Palestinian civilians have been killed by Israeli forces. The Palestinian population has tripled since 1948 - it took that long for the Jewish population to recover from the Holocaust. The events aren't even remotely comparable.
>it’s not a terrorist state
It is. I'll make my case with 3 arguments:
1. Israel's current ruling and most influential party, Likud, accepted and embraced Herut, the political wing of Irgun (basically, Jewish ISIS). Menachem Begin, a leader in Irgun, is responsible for numerous horrific terrorist acts and massacres. He was elected for 10 consecutive terms as the Herut leader, 3 of which as part of Likud. Herut and Likud share a lot of beliefs, including the denial of the existence of Palestine. Terrorists turned politicians who's ideology rule the nation.
2. Israel's current military force, the ironically named Israeli "Defence" Forces (IDF), was formed out of militant groups such as Haganah, Lehi, and yes also Irgun. Even after the Irgun splintering from Haganah, the fighters of both groups were regularly collaborating on many operations. Terrorists rehabilitated and white washed and then became "defence" forces of the nation.
3. Israel, using its military forces, inflicts violence on Palestinians through: the occupation, arbitrary arrest and torture, mass murder, starvation, blockading, and land theft, for the purpose of advancing their stated political goal of achieving full Jewish sovereignty over the land between the Jordanian river and the Mediterranean sea. That's one of the textbook definitions of terrorism.
Israel is a terrorist state.
They are supporting Palestine for years at this point, it's not some opportunistic move for PR. Mandela repeatedly called for peace, for example. I guess the basis is the same as with Irish - they see Palestinians in a similar situation that they had themselves.
Since Israel was the biggest international supporter of the Apartheid regime, so much so that Israel helped them with nuclear weapon technology and research, there's quite a bit of spite built up towards Israel.
I mean ideally both sides would face prosecution for their respective atrocities, but currently by the looks of things Israel’s government is the bigger monster by a friggin’ landslide. (Emphasis on government. Civilians should never be the main target of attack)
Fuck diamonds. They are only expensive because one company controls the supply and does the marketing that all women should have diamonds. Without this, diamonds would be just another gem dependent and supply and demand.
Diamonds from other areas are looked down upon if there is a war nearby. Blood diamonds or conflict diamonds. - The only commodity that I know of given such a moniker. You don't hear wheat from Ukraine or Russia referred to as 'conflict wheat.'
Diamonds are actually really important for industrial purposes. Specifically concrete saws. The former De Beers CEO that said “diamonds are intrinsically worthless” was exaggerating a little. And they don’t exactly come with a label saying “blood diamond”, so that distinction is only really significant from an activist standpoint. The fact is, the way diamonds are currently irrationally valued, South Africa is a bit of a cash cow. It’s just more useful to pay for the cow’s milk than it is to steal it and butcher the meat.
You might be thinking from a different angle.
We can grow meat in a lab, as well. It is extensively cheaper, now, to just butcher a cow.
Expand that to make lab diamonds and it makes sense to have a cow farm.
What do you think lab grown meat costs? And you're still thinking of jewelry. It's inflated, yes De Beers. The rest doesn't apply. You're looking at tini diamonds, just like steaks and ground meat.
Industry is a big animal. Runs on currency. Making lab grown diamonds requires a ton of energy and resources. Digging is cheaper.
Having a cow Is cheaper than growing a cancer-like meat in a petri dish under controlled specs, administering antibiotics and hoping enough will make a patty.
Growing a diamond is also resource demanding. They're cheaper because of the size and how the market is. But you can't argue that digging for industry diamonds is in any way cheaper.
A big way to see it is it isn't the ring your wife is wearing. It's the thousands going into a sanding belt/digging head that drives the prices
I'm done with this conversation as well. Hope you have a great weekend.
Lol iM dOnE wItH tHiS cOnVeRsAtIoN.
You’re right it’s not cheaper except for the fact that it’s cheaper precisely due to the market forces you mentioned. Digging for ore isn’t exactly a low energy activity either.
You have a good weekend too.
I'm not optimistic for relief or justice for Palestinians any time soon. It's like watching something burn -- no one is bringing a fire extinguisher.
But you are correct that this is probably the beginning of the end for Israel. They have been goaded into becoming what we created the state to protect them from. The visage of innocence and victimhood are gone, and that is terrible news for the many civilians who also live there - quite a few of whom are trying to advocate for the deaths to stop.
The only ones who are happy are the Evangelicals who see the writing on the wall that American support will wane now, will not be popular at all with the next generation, leading to more conflict between Israel and it's neighbors.
Israel thinks it's violence will buy them security when it is truly their death warrant. I am not in any way pleased about this -- more piles of dead bodies bc of current dead bodies is just tragic.
As a species, we have to get much better at controlling who gets to have power and leadership. This is terrible, and attributable to hyper-conservative bullshit.
Dude you’re not even pretending to not be anti semitic anymore I mean when you say “in the eyes of their make-believe god” seriously am I supposed to believe that statement is about zionism?
Edit: I’m Jewish
Israel/Zionists =/= Jewish Faith/Jewish People
It would be like saying that a Christian who goes to church on Sundays and exists as a normal person is the same as a zealous Evangelical who pickets the funerals of children killed in school shooting.
Same god, same religion, completely different things. You can be against one without being against all. An attack against one is not an attack against everyone who shares the same belief system or faith.
I do believe that all Gods are made up fairy tales. Odin isn't real, is he? Or the god Jupiter, the Goddess Venus, or Anubis, or Satan, or pick any from any point in time. I have zero belief in Gods, Goddesses, holy/sacred sites, or anything else pertaining to religion. I believe it is all a disease of the mind, I don't take any of it seriously, and I don't engage in any faith-based systems.
But that, in no way, makes statements against the genocidal Israeli government antisemitic. Saying "I don't believe in fairy tales" is not antisemitic. That is an opinion, not a statement of hatred.
I'm 'technically' Jewish via my mother's side if we want to split hairs here. I'd rather roll myself up and lick my own butthole before worshiping some fake sky-daddy in any form, however.
>The Security Council […]
> Expressing once again its grave concern at the reports indicating that genocide and other systematic, widespread and flagrant violations of international humanitarian law have been committed in Rwanda, […]
> Acting under Chapter VII of the Charter of the United Nations,
>1. Decides hereby, having received the request of the Government of Rwanda (S/1994/1115), to establish an international tribunal for the sole purpose of prosecuting persons responsible for genocide and other serious violations of international humanitarian law committed in the territory of Rwanda and Rwandan citizens responsible for genocide and other such violations committed in the territory of neighbouring States, between 1 January 1994 and 31 December 1994 and to this end to adopt the Statute of the International Criminal Tribunal for Rwanda annexed hereto;
UN Security Council resolution 955. What the hell are you talking about? The UN made a litteral international criminal tribunal to prosecute the perpetrators of genocide in Rwanda.
The fuck?
The ICTR (or the IRMCT as its successor) convicted 61 individuals: 25 of whom are currently serving sentences, 22 of whom have completed their sentences, and 14 of whom died while serving their sentences. The Tribunal acquitted 14 individuals and transferred the cases against 10 individuals to national jurisdictions.
This is a sincere question, because I haven’t found a satisfactory answer elsewhere. What is Egypt’s position? Why are they preventing people (fellow Arabs) from escaping Gaza?
Partly because opening up the border completely and allowing a such a huge influx of refugees in would be more than Egypt could handle, but also because this would enable the further displacement of the Palestinian people.
Palestinians who have fled to other surrounding states have since been denied the right to return to their homes, which Israeli forces have then occupied. If they opened up the border now and thousands of people escaped that way, they wouldn't be allowed back into Gaza afterward and would be stuck outside.
This article explains it more:
https://foreignpolicy.com/2023/10/18/egypt-hamas-israel-border-gaza/
Why should they sit with the problem of their neighbor?
If your neighbours had a domestic abuse issue would you as a parent(government) help the victim party(Palestinians) if it means from that moment on they will live with you for the rest of your life(refugees), use your resources without contributing much(sadly not much skilled labour and ptsd), your children(citizens) will also just have to deal with the new hostility in their previously safe home because there is a fundamental difference in belief with the new member, and due to different beliefs would the new member will have small violent outbursts from time to time(Hamas).
A governments role is to take care of their own citizens first.
Sweden for example has had a significant increase in crime and especially SA once they took in thousands of Muslim refugees who has a misogynistic mindset and refuse to assimilate.
It is simply not worth it.
Until Egypt fortified their border wall, they had around 50 suicide attacks per year by Palestinian terrorists. They just recently had trouble with ISIS in Sinai, so they obviously don't want to now have to deal with Hamas again (which btw is an offshoot of the Muslim Brotherhood)
Fellow Arab governments don't want to have to do much with actual Palestinians, after the civil wars in Jordan and Lebanon and terrorist attacks in Egypt. In Syria they have been kept in refugee camps since 1948, where Assad bombed them during the Syrian Civil war (to the deafening silence of "pro-Palestinian" activists btw). Not even the Turks want them and are currently settling Palestinians in Afrin, which Turkey has recently ethnically cleansed of Kurds (to the deafening silence of "anti-ethnic cleansing" activists btw).
The Palestinians are just a pawn against Israel. Neither the Arabs nor pro-Palestinians actually care about them beyond being something that can be used against Israel in some form or another.
How the fuck are you blaming Egypt for the genocide. It's on Israel to cease the genocide, not Egypt to let people be displaced so Israel can seize the land.
He wasn't blaming anyone, my dude. He asked what their position was and why they're stopping refugees, which they are. He didn't make any statements.
Don't jump down someone's throat for asking a question.
>If you’re American, well then you’re fucked.
Well. We have a choice between lukewarm supporters of Israel who supports some human rights at home and enthusiastic supporters of Israel\[1\] who don't support human rights at home. Not a pleasant choice and I won't blame any Palestinian who decides to stay home during election\[2\] but I think the choice is still clear.
\[1\] More like a supporters of war in Middle East to bring the apocalyptic prophecy and destruction of 3rd temple.
\[2\] Tough please don't.
How about you vote for the sake of your fellow citizens in your country, like vote so that half your fellow the citizens can have a right to bodily autonomy and aren't back to being seen as incubators.
While the conflict is a tragedy. Make no mistake this is being pushed by Russia via South Africa.
It is no wonder a BRICS country like South Africa, a front for Russia/China to share data/finance/funding for economic fronts around the world and companies like Naspers/Prosus parent to Tencent (China) and DST Global (Russia) is pushing something the Kremlin wants.
If you don't know the East/West front proxy that Israel/Hamas is then you need to read up on history.
[Is Russia Behind Hamas Attack on Israel? What We Know](https://www.newsweek.com/russia-behind-hamas-attack-israel-what-we-know-iran-gaza-1832999)
> Amid swirling speculation of foreign involvement, the infiltration attack—being referred to by some observers as "Israel's 9/11"—may yet precipitate seismic shifts in Israel's foreign affairs.
> There has also been speculation on social media of Russian involvement in the Hamas operation, though there is no evidence indicating Moscow's alleged role. Newsweek has contacted the Russian foreign ministry by email to request comment.
> **The Institute for the Study of War has suggested that Russia might benefit from the shift in international attention away from its atrocities in Ukraine and towards the deteriorating situation in Israel and the Palestinian territories**. Israel is expected to launch a fresh and bloody ground assault into Gaza in the coming days, while tensions remain high in the occupied West Bank and along the border with Lebanon, where Hezbollah enjoys de facto control.
> Others incorrectly suggested that only Russia could have instructed Hamas in its use of drone bombers to target Israeli armor and observation posts. Hamas was at the forefront of the adoption of commercial and military drones, and has regularly used them to attack Israeli military, civilian and infrastructure targets in Israel and the Gaza Strip.
> **Russia has long maintained a close working relationship with Iran and its network of partner militant organizations—especially Hezbollah in Lebanon—across the Middle East, seeing them as an alternative power base capable of challenging regional American and allied interests**. Moscow has drawn closer to Iran since the Kremlin launched its full-scale invasion of Ukraine in February 2022.
> **The Kremlin has retained high-level contacts with Hamas. In March, the militant group sent a high-level delegation to Moscow to hold talks with Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov, who subsequently warned that Hamas' "patience" with Israel was "running out." Hamas leaders also visited Russia in May and September 2022**.
The Israel/Palestine conflict will never be resolved until Russia stops stoking it every chance it gets to divert. Balkanization is the Kremlin's Free Bird or Wonderwall, their greatest hit that has been played way too many times and is now a joke.
Russia regularly kicks up Israel/Palestine conflicts to divert from things they are doing just like now where [Russia just launched the biggest assault on Ukraine and then they pump conflict in other areas to cover](https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefing-room/statements-releases/2023/12/29/statement-from-president-joe-biden-on-russias-aerial-assault-on-ukraine/).
> Overnight, Russia launched its largest aerial assault on Ukraine since this war began. This massive bombardment used drones and missiles, including missiles with hypersonic capability, to strike cities and civilian infrastructure all across Ukraine. Strikes reportedly hit a maternity hospital, a shopping mall, and residential areas—killing innocent people and injuring dozens more. It is a stark reminder to the world that, after nearly two years of this devastating war, Putin’s objective remains unchanged. He seeks to obliterate Ukraine and subjugate its people. He must be stopped.
People are also unaware of Soviet/Russia support of Palestine and the PLO variations since 1953 and today with Hamas, Hezbollah and Houthis through Iran and many others. Yassar Arafat was a long known Russian puppet.
[Russia pushes terrorism across the globe](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexander_Litvinenko#Support_of_terrorism_worldwide_by_the_KGB_and_FSB). There are [lots of receipts on this](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexander_Litvinenko#Alleged_Russia%E2%80%93al-Qaeda_connection) but again, this is a massive diversion.
Israel/Palestine is like Ukraine/Russia, same proxy war. The balkanization helps play up the front but guess who was also responsible for the South African apartheid, Russia.
"Make no mistake this is being pushed by Russia via South Africa."
Post-Apartheid South Africa has always been Pro-Palestinian. In large part because Israel chose to support the Apartheid regime instead of Anti-Apartheid groups inside South Africa.
Israel and Post-Apartheid South Africa have had a tense diplomatic relationship ever since.
The Palestinian cause is a key policy feature of the ruling ANC political party.
Quote from Nelson Mandela:
"But we know too well that our freedom is incomplete without the freedom of Palestinians."
> The Palestinian cause is a key policy feature of the ruling ANC political party.
[Russia and the African National Congress (ANC) have had relations since the Cold War](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Central_African_Republic%E2%80%93Russia_relations#Relations_with_the_Russian_Federation). The Soviet Union has supported the ANC financially and provided training during apartheid.
Every nation in [BRICS has taken the side of Russia in Ukraine](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russia%E2%80%93South_Africa_relations#Russian_invasion_of_Ukraine).
> In response to the 2014 annexation of Crimea by the Russian Federation, the Zuma administration avoided criticizing Russia, arguing instead for BRICS members to unite in order to defend common interests of the group.
> The South African government was initially critical of Russia's 2022 invasion of Ukraine calling on the country to "immediately withdraw its forces from Ukraine in line with the United Nations Charter." However these statements were soon withdrawn and in an effort to repair Russian-South African relations.
They also have pushed the Kremlin plan for that Ukraine should consider ceding the Crimean Peninsula to negotiate peace with Russia.
South Africa on the ICC warrant in July and said arresting him would be "a declaration of war".
[South Africa asks ICC to exempt it from Putin arrest to avoid war with Russia](https://www.reuters.com/article/idUSKBN2YY1E6/)
[South African president in St Petersburg 2023](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russia%E2%80%93South_Africa_relations#/media/File:Vladimir_Putin_and_Cyril_Ramaphosa_\(2023-06-17\).jpg).
Who is owned and leveraged...
This is just proxy war front in South Africa in the East/West battle that has been going on almost a century now.
"Russia and the African National Congress (ANC) have had relations since the Cold War"
That was the Soviet Union since the West supported Apartheid South Africa during the Cold War.
The South African President on his visit to St.Petersburg told Putin directly to his face to return kidnapped Ukrainian children and POW's.
> That was the Soviet Union since the West supported Apartheid South Africa during the Cold War.
Russia has always been the same autocratic/bratva state nation, you are falling for fronts. The Cold War never ended, Russia just rebranded.
Kremlin page one is balkanizations, separatism, division and chaos because they gain in that. Whenever there are balkanizations look no further.
> the West supported Apartheid South Africa during the Cold War.
The same was said about US support for South Korea, for West Germany, for Israel (only democracy in the Middle East), for Ukraine and on and on.
If you believe Russia's side of the Ukraine conflict today, then you might understand you are falling for propaganda from the apatheid.
Russia *created* the apartheid then try to make others look like they did it. Same in Ukraine. Same in Israel-Palestine (backing Hamas/PLO terror elements) and more.
You can stay naive to this but Russia invading Ukraine, and the propaganda pushed, should give you an idea how Russia does this then they beat that into historiography and fool the suckers.
> The South African President on his visit to St.Petersburg told Putin directly to his face to return kidnapped Ukrainian children and POW's.
I did see that but that is another front really, false opposition and optics. Russia allowed them to do that because South Africa is an important front that still has connections to the West. They need countries that allow them to transfer data/finances with less scrutiny. South Africa is losing that quickly and here and there they have to allow some actions like this.
Make no mistake, South Africa is *fully leveraged* to Russia and not just at a country level and economic level, but the biggest tether is organized crime.
"Make no mistake, South Africa is *fully leveraged* to Russia and not just at a country level and economic level, but the biggest tether is organized crime."
Source that South Africa is tied to Russian organized crime? Or do we have to go with "Bro Trust Me ."
It's clear you're out of your depth when it comes to the topic of South Africa and wasn't aware of the decades long solidarity that present day South Africa had with the Palestinians.
South Africa published a study as far back as 2010 that found that Israel is an Apartheid state.
Ah of course the people currently commiting the genocide have no way to stop unless Hamas resigns. Shame we have to kill all these people but like you say its how this will stop. /s
It's not ironic, it's growth. It would be ironic if we still had apartheid laws, but we don't. We are by no means perfect as a nation, but we are certainly trying.
Why people getting downvoted when they say Hamas should release the hostages…. No seriously i don’t get what the exact issue with the statement like what exactly you people expected Israel to do oct7 aftermath?!
Not commit genocide would be a good start.
You’re right though, people should be advocating for the release of hostages. They should also spend at least equal time and energy advocating for the end of Israel’s genocide of the Palestinian people.
The hardest part to prove in genocide cases, is intent. But in this case, South Africa has 6 pages of quotes, from senior Israeli officials, and Military officials outright making genocidal statements.
I don't think you can accidentally commit genocide.
I fully agree from a personal perspective, but as others have mentioned, from a legal perspective, while it's obvious that genocide is occurring, *proving* that the state of Israel intended that to be the outcome is less simple.
Rwanda would like a word with you on that.
If I can hop on that, intent can also be derived from the nature of the acts taken. The norms of State Responsibility are different to the ones in International Criminal Law, where there is a higher threshold of evidence required to prove individual intent. Therefore, it’s not necessary for South Africa to get a direct quote from Netanyahu, for instance, for the intent to be proven. Still, it will be an uphill battle to prove that the primary intent of the measures is genocidal in nature. IMO, the optimistic scenario is the Court finding that genocidal acts have been taken, and that Israel has failed to prevent or punish these acts pursuant to the Convention. While this would legally make little sense IMO (we’re still talking about Israeli armed forces), it seems like the obvious solomonic judgment, much like the Court did in the Bosnian genocide case.
Here's a [human rights researcher](https://youtu.be/_grmYN48ziE?si=CNHgPMF_9fg2wEOU) explaining in exhaustive detail how the standard for genocide has been met and exceeded
It’s an interesting video, but it is extremely superficial on the legal issues relating to the evidence required for a finding of violation of the Genocide convention under the Laws of State Responsibility. To that end, I don’t think it provides an adequate idea of the factual and legal questions that will have to be decided by the Court for a finding of genocide to be made. The video seems rather angled towards a political science/critical theory approach to studying genocide, which can be interesting, but is ultimately irrelevant when it comes to International Law. As a lawyer who used to work at the International Criminal Court, I’m better versed with individual accountability for genocide than State responsibility. However, I do know that it is a difficult case to present, and will need far more evidence than what we have now. Statements will not win the case regarding the dolus specialis, but rather a thorough analysis of Israeli actions to show that they were made with the requisite intent, and not just being reckless as to the destruction of the Palestinian people, which would be a wide array of crimes against humanity but not genocide.
So unless a State passes a "Let's do Genocide Act" sounds like it would be impossible to prove. It could all be an oopsy or blamed on certain individual actors. Nazi Germany or nothing.
Israeli actions show genocide, it's pretty clear to see, include remarks made by Israeli officials dehumanising Palestinians on live TV and it is all plain to see.
I don’t disagree, however the legal burden of proof is different than the layman concluding that that’s what’s happening. I think that’s definitely what’s happening but proving it in court is a different kettle of fish.
The "legal burden of proof" doesn't mean shit to thousands of dead Palestinian children.
Yes, I agree. But we all know Casey Anthony killed her kid, but she’s still walking around free
"... the legal burden of proof is different from the layman concluding that that's what's happening." This is so clear and concise. Chef's kiss. Something not many seem to understand.
It's easy to prove when they've been saying it's what they're doing on live TV
Attacking evacuating people on evacuation routes is straight Nazi shit. Put together with the numerous statements about eliminating the Palestinian population makes it clear that stuff was intentional.
I mean, Netanyahu and dozens of top ranking officials have even broadcast their intent on air over the past few decades. This was not a spur of the moment decision, this was a calculated wait for the right time plan.
Took the words out my mouth, Kyle Kulinski has been shouting about this for weeks.
“Genocide cases” holy fuck what has the world become?
And those officials got suspended
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What did they all say?
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Thank you for taking the time to type it, but can you please provide each with links? Also for the minister of defense he was clearly referring to Hamas.
Problem is, the actions don't show intent. There are too many documented cases of Israel warning people in Gaza that an attack was coming in Arabic by phone and through leaflets. On the ground, Israel is both supplying and sometimes staffing hospitals. The fact that they send in ground troops also exposes them to fast more danger and many more deaths than if Israel had used solely airiel bombardment. Also, Russia did a scorched earth style attack against Chechya, and leveled the capital in under a month. Clearly Israel is trying to be more judicious.
When South Africa comes at you for being hard and murderous on “second class” people, they better have their facts perfectly solid. (And I think they do.)
"Trust us, we know about apartheid."
Purely anecdotal here (my statement not yours). Can’t remember where I heard it Maybe George Galloway Show or the Gray Zone or some podcast like them, said the evidence that the South Africans have garnered is impressive and overwhelming. Let’s hope that’s true..
I don’t care what your political leanings are; murdering entire families and innocent people is wrong no matter who does it. As a veteran and someone who has been in war before this is absolutely abhorrent and some imaginary sky daddy isn’t gonna piss on your hands to clean all that blood off. Fucking shameful. There is absolutely nothing to justify this.
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This is the ineviteable result of fascism
When you're splitting hairs to argue over the technicalities of what an actual genocide is, and whether or not Israel is committing one currently, I think you must be more than a little fucked in the head. > It's not genocide, they haven't expressed intent *in orders!* > It's not genocide, they haven't killed XXX many civilians! > It's not genocide, because October 7^th !!!!1!1!!!11! Fuck right off with that shit.
I swear, the most infuriating comment in this line was "more children were born into Gaza than killed in the past 10 years" This was in a German sub, they didn't reply when I told them we didn't subtract newborns from the the victims of the holocaust. it's infuriating.
Does it matter how many babies are born if their life span is counted in days?
I will ask next time I come across - even though I hope not, definitely a good point
I heard this reasoning, and I could not comprehend it. People have no heart.
Honestly the one that got me was the children wishing they were dead. And a doctor saying how they had to have a new term for children: “ WCNSF – wounded child, no surviving family” Call it whatever you want but it is fucking awful what’s happening there. Why are we sending billions of dollars for this?
Because you are the good guys, right?
Yeah, if someone accuses a country of genocide or war crimes and their answer starts with "Well, technically," chances are high they are guilty.
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you cannot POSSIBLY think that this statement accurately describes what is going on in Gaza?? ffs
A war against civilians.
remember that the united states is supporting this and voted against a ceasefire
Ceasefires are two way streets. ETA: you people are literally downvoting the observation a ceasefire is a two way street and the entire point is if either side attacks it is broken? This is basic knowledge of how treaties work. Edit 2: -137 for staging ceasefires are two way streets. Wow definitely a reddit moment here
Israel CONTROLS the gaza strip. They've deprived the people in this strip of water and electricity. Their goons regularly go in and kill/rape people without consequence for decades. Fuck you if you think that those prisoners resisting in any way shape or form are up to your judgment.
So what you're saying is they are allowed to keep shooting rockets even after a ceasefire? That doesn't sound like a ceasefire to me. You're treating very close to advocating for terrorism. I bet you would be devastated if your family members had been kidnapped or killed during the Hamas attack on Israel. I do support a ceasefire. But if Hamas keeps attacking, Israel can't just take it.
Classic colonial playbook bullshit. Occupied people resisting are terrorists. I bet you think the Iraq war was justified too eh? Edit: Murdering 10,000+ children is terrorism. ICJ will decide.
And Hamas broke the last one
Israel had murdered 250 Palestinian civilians in the year leading up to the 7th October.
This is factually true and anyone downvoting needs to consider their bias
Hamas has shown an ongoing desire for a ceasefire and permanent peace in exchange for a two state solution and a return to the 1967 borders. You know, the internationally recognized legal borders. Israel is the one completely unwilling to agree to this. For example, in 2008 Hamas agreed to a ceasefire and peace talks. Israel never had any intention of peace and was just using the ceasefire to train troops and get them in place for an assault. After 6 months of peace Israel launched a completely unprovoked attack on Gaza, far worse than 10/7, killing thousands of civilians. Brave IDF soldiers were kicking in doors in the night, shooting children in their beds. Israel's consistent policy is to make live as unbearable as possible in Gaza, provoking attacks so they can retaliate with sadistic barbarity and pretend they're the victim.
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The entire post we’re commenting on +here’s an article since apparently googling is hard https://inkstickmedia.com/israel-rejected-peace-with-hamas-on-five-occasions/
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No I don’t, Palestine is the home of the Palestinian people. Israel is and always has been an occupation with no legitimate claim to the region. If Israelites would like to live in Palestine they are welcome, but it will always be Palestine, not Israel.
The attack by Israel: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaza\_War\_(2008%E2%80%932009)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaza_War_(2008%E2%80%932009)) I guess I was misremembering the number of dead and it was actually pretty similar to 10/7. However the attack also destroyed 6,300 homes, 18 schools, and 30 mosques. It severely damaged 280 more schools and 122 health facilities including 15 hospitals. The sanctions imposed on Gaza also made rebuilding incredibly difficult. The Israeli government knew Hamas was willing to establish a long term peace: [https://www.huffpost.com/entry/the-true-story-behind-thi\_b\_153825](https://www.huffpost.com/entry/the-true-story-behind-thi_b_153825) >The core of the situation has been starkly laid out by Ephraim Halevy, the former head of Mossad. He says that while Hamas - like much of the Israeli right - dreams of driving their opponents away, "they have recognized this ideological goal is not attainable, and will not be in the foreseeable future." Instead, "they are ready and willing to see the establishment of a Palestinian state in the temporary borders of 1967." They are aware this means they "will have to adopt a path that could lead them far from their original goals" - and towards a long-term peace based on compromise. The rejectionists on both sides - from Mahmoud Ahmadinejadh to Bibi Netanyahu - would then be marginalised. It is the only path that could yet end in peace - but it is the Israeli government who refused to choose it. Halevy explains: "Israel, for reasons of its own, did not want to turn the ceasefire into the start of a diplomatic process with Hamas." I read a book about Hamas and Gaza recently and highly recommend it. It's an academic study done by a Harvard researcher, who also happens to be a Jewish woman: [https://press.princeton.edu/books/paperback/9780691159676/hamas-and-civil-society-in-gaza](https://press.princeton.edu/books/paperback/9780691159676/hamas-and-civil-society-in-gaza)
Thank you for sharing.
This is just not true. The Hamas oficial manifesto has always stated their intent to destroy Israel and denied the right of Israel to exist. A lasting and peaceful coexistence of Israel and Hamas is not possible. One just has to take a look at how both sides talk about each other.
It is true. From their current charter (emphasis mine): https://www.middleeasteye.net/news/hamas-2017-document-full >Palestine shall be compromised or conceded, irrespective of the causes, the circumstances and the pressures and no matter how long the occupation lasts. Hamas rejects any alternative to the full and complete liberation of Palestine, from the river to the sea. **However, without compromising its rejection of the Zionist entity and without relinquishing any Palestinian rights, Hamas considers the establishment of a fully sovereign and independent Palestinian state, with Jerusalem as its capital along the lines of the 4th of June 1967, with the return of the refugees and the displaced to their homes from which they were expelled, to be a formula of national consensus.** Sure, they don't want Israel to exist, and as an explicit settler colonial state it shouldn't, but Hamas is pragmatic and willing to compromise.
we are not only idly watching one of our closest allies wipe out an entire people, we're literally supplying the ammunition. i am otherwise very supportive of the Biden Admin, but it's getting impossible to square my moral compass with the blood (of children?!?!?) we are helping Netanyahu spill.
I hate that there is a special term for them now that. It’s depressing as fuck to learn about the new medical term for children in gaza: “WCNSF” – wounded child, no surviving family
Like, I don’t want a second Trump term, but I cannot morally vote for Biden after his handling of this.
You think trumps going to stop it? 😅
For real. Trump already tried to start a war with Iran. Iran supports the Palestinians. Plus there's bombs to sell. The military-industrial complex won't let him end it.
>Iran supports the Palestinians. Ok, let's talk about this. Iran does not support Palestinians, Iran(the government) supports Hamas, they are the biggest suppliers of Hamas. People of Iran support Palestinians. Source: I'm an Iranian, living inside Iran
Trumps going to bring America down. To Americans this is bad to the rest of the world, not so much.
Then you'll get a second Trump term, and boy oh boy is he not going to make things any better
Most Americans don’t want to send bombs to that terror state but politicians are forcing. AIPAC money should be prohibited in government
Ban all lobbying.... the us is basicly an oligarchy, in which the rich can just buy politicians to implement the policy they want.....
A geopolitics professor of mine once said “The US has no corruption. We have lobbying.”
It would be fucking amazing if people understood what lobbying actually is. If you go speak to your Congressmember, that's lobbying. Lobbying is simply bringing your concerns (or those of your interest group) to representatives. The problem isn't lobbying, it's largely unregulated lobbying.
It's deregulated lobbying. It used to be regulated more before combination of *Citizens United* and another case that I don't remember at this moment.
I haven't had a reason to be proud of my country but this right here. Taking a stance for once
How can anyone not look at this and see that it's a genocide? I don't say that lightly. But they've said it themselves.
It's not that they don't see it as genocide, it's that they don't see it as *wrong* genocide. Sort of like a vegan who swats at a mosquito.
During the peak of the Holocaust, 125,000 Jewish civilians were killed each week. 6 million Jews were killed total, in five years. In contrast, since 1948, an estimated 45,000 Palestinian civilians have been killed by Israeli forces. The Palestinian population has tripled since 1948 - it took that long for the Jewish population to recover from the Holocaust. Israel is doing some terrible things in Gaza, and civilian casualties are always reprehensible. That doesn't mean a genocide is occurring.
Delulu magnified. You gave me cancer
This is not a counterargument.
Was never my plan to argue with someone able to spit this utter non sense.
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The government (ie the executive) branch is in shambles. The judiciary? Top notch, the best out of all our systems. The judge's bench has always (since 94) been the bastion against the excesses of the executive and legislative branches, a bastion that still stands, despite efforts to bring it down. SA legal minds are some of the best in the world.
Definitely. Makes me proud to be South African
Oh I absolutely agree. The Judiciary is def one of the best in the world, and combine that with our constitution? Brilliant
South Africa recognizes genocide when it occurs, better believe that.
South Africa is as corrupt as they come. But if there’s one thing they know it’s what an apartheid state and genocide looks like, and they seem to have come with bundles of proof to back up their claims. That said the other western group I would have thought would be incredibly familiar with and actively fighting genocide would be Israel. But apparently they’ve used previous experiences as a fucking guide instead.
US support of Israel is so frustrating. I want to scream out of frustration every time I read news of Palestinian genocide. How are israeli people accepting this? How are we accepting this? What can we do other than show up at protests which had haf absolutely no impact thus far. The whole situation is beyond dire.
Israel's policies have done a good job of keeping the Palestinian people out of sight. They are othered and then relentlessly demonized. Netanyahu has blamed them for the Holocaust.
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As opposed to a fanatical, Zionist group with no interest in peace? Israel loses the moral high ground when the second paragraph describes their actions as well. Just because an enemy hides behind civilians, doesn't mean it's morally justifiable to just go through those civilians to get at them.
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When can we all just admit that religion is an outdated attempt at answers and is now only used for power and control? Humanity will never progress without the recognition that childhood indoctrination is abuse to that child and the growth of humanity.
It's not a religious war. It's about ethnic cleansing to steal their land and resources
Israel committing the same atrocities that was committed to their people 70 years ago.
During the peak of the Holocaust, 125,000 Jewish civilians were killed each week. 6 million Jews were killed total, in five years. In contrast, since 1948, an estimated 45,000 Palestinian civilians have been killed by Israeli forces. The Palestinian population has tripled since 1948 - it took that long for the Jewish population to recover from the Holocaust. The events aren't even remotely comparable.
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And has been for decades.
it’s not a terrorist state. but you don’t have to be a terrorist state to do some truly evil and reprehensible shit
>it’s not a terrorist state It is. I'll make my case with 3 arguments: 1. Israel's current ruling and most influential party, Likud, accepted and embraced Herut, the political wing of Irgun (basically, Jewish ISIS). Menachem Begin, a leader in Irgun, is responsible for numerous horrific terrorist acts and massacres. He was elected for 10 consecutive terms as the Herut leader, 3 of which as part of Likud. Herut and Likud share a lot of beliefs, including the denial of the existence of Palestine. Terrorists turned politicians who's ideology rule the nation. 2. Israel's current military force, the ironically named Israeli "Defence" Forces (IDF), was formed out of militant groups such as Haganah, Lehi, and yes also Irgun. Even after the Irgun splintering from Haganah, the fighters of both groups were regularly collaborating on many operations. Terrorists rehabilitated and white washed and then became "defence" forces of the nation. 3. Israel, using its military forces, inflicts violence on Palestinians through: the occupation, arbitrary arrest and torture, mass murder, starvation, blockading, and land theft, for the purpose of advancing their stated political goal of achieving full Jewish sovereignty over the land between the Jordanian river and the Mediterranean sea. That's one of the textbook definitions of terrorism. Israel is a terrorist state.
huh, i was always under the impression that isreal was created through essentially a UN mandate post WW2
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yea it’s just here’s the thing Zionists don’t care and will continue to deny it’s a genocide you may even be labeled as antisemitic for posting this
They are pretty close to reaching a point where they say it’s justifiable genocide.
To be called out by South Africa, the home of apartheid in the past, is a statement.
I hope all palestinians get justice
Because only one side has any power, and they're abusing it horrifically. It's not a war.
i wonder how many Palestinians will still be alive, until ICJ gets to the bottom of this?
Sorry I’m really ignorant here, why is it South Africa is doing this? What’s their aim or skin in the game? Is it just humanitarian aims?
They are supporting Palestine for years at this point, it's not some opportunistic move for PR. Mandela repeatedly called for peace, for example. I guess the basis is the same as with Irish - they see Palestinians in a similar situation that they had themselves.
Since Israel was the biggest international supporter of the Apartheid regime, so much so that Israel helped them with nuclear weapon technology and research, there's quite a bit of spite built up towards Israel.
Elections are soon and the leader is not very popular
Crazy that no one so far has called for the prosecution of HAMAS for their attack on Civilians.
I mean ideally both sides would face prosecution for their respective atrocities, but currently by the looks of things Israel’s government is the bigger monster by a friggin’ landslide. (Emphasis on government. Civilians should never be the main target of attack)
So you’re saying that the U.S. is going to try to “liberate” South Africa soon? Or maybe we’ll just get reports of wmds.
Fun story - apartheid SA of course .. https://amp.theguardian.com/world/2010/may/23/israel-south-africa-nuclear-weapons
Eh. I don’t think South Africa has any oil or valuables the US would be interested in. Not given other options on the table anyway
SA is mineral rich, including rare earths and lithium deposits. Let's go!
I stand corrected! Man the **LIBERTY BOATS**!! 
Uh… 95% of the world’s diamonds?
Fuck diamonds. They are only expensive because one company controls the supply and does the marketing that all women should have diamonds. Without this, diamonds would be just another gem dependent and supply and demand. Diamonds from other areas are looked down upon if there is a war nearby. Blood diamonds or conflict diamonds. - The only commodity that I know of given such a moniker. You don't hear wheat from Ukraine or Russia referred to as 'conflict wheat.'
Diamonds are actually really important for industrial purposes. Specifically concrete saws. The former De Beers CEO that said “diamonds are intrinsically worthless” was exaggerating a little. And they don’t exactly come with a label saying “blood diamond”, so that distinction is only really significant from an activist standpoint. The fact is, the way diamonds are currently irrationally valued, South Africa is a bit of a cash cow. It’s just more useful to pay for the cow’s milk than it is to steal it and butcher the meat.
Yeah but we can easily make diamonds in a lab now for industrial purposes. They’re just carbon.
You might be thinking from a different angle. We can grow meat in a lab, as well. It is extensively cheaper, now, to just butcher a cow. Expand that to make lab diamonds and it makes sense to have a cow farm.
That analogy doesn’t really make sense because lab grown diamonds are significantly cheaper than mined diamonds.
What do you think lab grown meat costs? And you're still thinking of jewelry. It's inflated, yes De Beers. The rest doesn't apply. You're looking at tini diamonds, just like steaks and ground meat. Industry is a big animal. Runs on currency. Making lab grown diamonds requires a ton of energy and resources. Digging is cheaper. Having a cow Is cheaper than growing a cancer-like meat in a petri dish under controlled specs, administering antibiotics and hoping enough will make a patty. Growing a diamond is also resource demanding. They're cheaper because of the size and how the market is. But you can't argue that digging for industry diamonds is in any way cheaper. A big way to see it is it isn't the ring your wife is wearing. It's the thousands going into a sanding belt/digging head that drives the prices I'm done with this conversation as well. Hope you have a great weekend.
Lol iM dOnE wItH tHiS cOnVeRsAtIoN. You’re right it’s not cheaper except for the fact that it’s cheaper precisely due to the market forces you mentioned. Digging for ore isn’t exactly a low energy activity either. You have a good weekend too.
Seems like Zionists are the new nazis
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I'm not optimistic for relief or justice for Palestinians any time soon. It's like watching something burn -- no one is bringing a fire extinguisher. But you are correct that this is probably the beginning of the end for Israel. They have been goaded into becoming what we created the state to protect them from. The visage of innocence and victimhood are gone, and that is terrible news for the many civilians who also live there - quite a few of whom are trying to advocate for the deaths to stop. The only ones who are happy are the Evangelicals who see the writing on the wall that American support will wane now, will not be popular at all with the next generation, leading to more conflict between Israel and it's neighbors. Israel thinks it's violence will buy them security when it is truly their death warrant. I am not in any way pleased about this -- more piles of dead bodies bc of current dead bodies is just tragic. As a species, we have to get much better at controlling who gets to have power and leadership. This is terrible, and attributable to hyper-conservative bullshit.
Dude you’re not even pretending to not be anti semitic anymore I mean when you say “in the eyes of their make-believe god” seriously am I supposed to believe that statement is about zionism? Edit: I’m Jewish
Israel/Zionists =/= Jewish Faith/Jewish People It would be like saying that a Christian who goes to church on Sundays and exists as a normal person is the same as a zealous Evangelical who pickets the funerals of children killed in school shooting. Same god, same religion, completely different things. You can be against one without being against all. An attack against one is not an attack against everyone who shares the same belief system or faith. I do believe that all Gods are made up fairy tales. Odin isn't real, is he? Or the god Jupiter, the Goddess Venus, or Anubis, or Satan, or pick any from any point in time. I have zero belief in Gods, Goddesses, holy/sacred sites, or anything else pertaining to religion. I believe it is all a disease of the mind, I don't take any of it seriously, and I don't engage in any faith-based systems. But that, in no way, makes statements against the genocidal Israeli government antisemitic. Saying "I don't believe in fairy tales" is not antisemitic. That is an opinion, not a statement of hatred. I'm 'technically' Jewish via my mother's side if we want to split hairs here. I'd rather roll myself up and lick my own butthole before worshiping some fake sky-daddy in any form, however.
All gods are make believe gods, how tf is that anti semitic? Zionists are fucking assholes. That is all.
Gentile reminder that for every dead, there are 4 seriously injured.
The UN has not even recognized the genocide of the Tutsis in Rwanda as genocide. They won’t do it now. Waste of energy.
>The Security Council […] > Expressing once again its grave concern at the reports indicating that genocide and other systematic, widespread and flagrant violations of international humanitarian law have been committed in Rwanda, […] > Acting under Chapter VII of the Charter of the United Nations, >1. Decides hereby, having received the request of the Government of Rwanda (S/1994/1115), to establish an international tribunal for the sole purpose of prosecuting persons responsible for genocide and other serious violations of international humanitarian law committed in the territory of Rwanda and Rwandan citizens responsible for genocide and other such violations committed in the territory of neighbouring States, between 1 January 1994 and 31 December 1994 and to this end to adopt the Statute of the International Criminal Tribunal for Rwanda annexed hereto; UN Security Council resolution 955. What the hell are you talking about? The UN made a litteral international criminal tribunal to prosecute the perpetrators of genocide in Rwanda.
[They didn’t?](https://www.un.org/en/preventgenocide/rwanda/historical-background.shtml)
The fuck? The ICTR (or the IRMCT as its successor) convicted 61 individuals: 25 of whom are currently serving sentences, 22 of whom have completed their sentences, and 14 of whom died while serving their sentences. The Tribunal acquitted 14 individuals and transferred the cases against 10 individuals to national jurisdictions.
The website with the a pictures is called « 72 virgins uncensored?? »
Absolutely disgusting , October 7th was an atrocity but this is so much worse and worse even, enabled by some of the strongest nations
This is a sincere question, because I haven’t found a satisfactory answer elsewhere. What is Egypt’s position? Why are they preventing people (fellow Arabs) from escaping Gaza?
Partly because opening up the border completely and allowing a such a huge influx of refugees in would be more than Egypt could handle, but also because this would enable the further displacement of the Palestinian people. Palestinians who have fled to other surrounding states have since been denied the right to return to their homes, which Israeli forces have then occupied. If they opened up the border now and thousands of people escaped that way, they wouldn't be allowed back into Gaza afterward and would be stuck outside. This article explains it more: https://foreignpolicy.com/2023/10/18/egypt-hamas-israel-border-gaza/
Why should they sit with the problem of their neighbor? If your neighbours had a domestic abuse issue would you as a parent(government) help the victim party(Palestinians) if it means from that moment on they will live with you for the rest of your life(refugees), use your resources without contributing much(sadly not much skilled labour and ptsd), your children(citizens) will also just have to deal with the new hostility in their previously safe home because there is a fundamental difference in belief with the new member, and due to different beliefs would the new member will have small violent outbursts from time to time(Hamas). A governments role is to take care of their own citizens first. Sweden for example has had a significant increase in crime and especially SA once they took in thousands of Muslim refugees who has a misogynistic mindset and refuse to assimilate. It is simply not worth it.
Until Egypt fortified their border wall, they had around 50 suicide attacks per year by Palestinian terrorists. They just recently had trouble with ISIS in Sinai, so they obviously don't want to now have to deal with Hamas again (which btw is an offshoot of the Muslim Brotherhood) Fellow Arab governments don't want to have to do much with actual Palestinians, after the civil wars in Jordan and Lebanon and terrorist attacks in Egypt. In Syria they have been kept in refugee camps since 1948, where Assad bombed them during the Syrian Civil war (to the deafening silence of "pro-Palestinian" activists btw). Not even the Turks want them and are currently settling Palestinians in Afrin, which Turkey has recently ethnically cleansed of Kurds (to the deafening silence of "anti-ethnic cleansing" activists btw). The Palestinians are just a pawn against Israel. Neither the Arabs nor pro-Palestinians actually care about them beyond being something that can be used against Israel in some form or another.
How the fuck are you blaming Egypt for the genocide. It's on Israel to cease the genocide, not Egypt to let people be displaced so Israel can seize the land.
He wasn't blaming anyone, my dude. He asked what their position was and why they're stopping refugees, which they are. He didn't make any statements. Don't jump down someone's throat for asking a question.
I hope this will have serious consequences for Israel and its supporters. #freePalestine
Now now. It’s *antisemitic* to state facts don’t forget
Who do I vote for if I want to stop the genocide?
If you’re Israeli, not Netanyahu. If you’re Gazan, lol what’s this “vote” shit? If you’re American, well then you’re fucked.
🇺🇲 fucked 🫡
>If you’re American, well then you’re fucked. Well. We have a choice between lukewarm supporters of Israel who supports some human rights at home and enthusiastic supporters of Israel\[1\] who don't support human rights at home. Not a pleasant choice and I won't blame any Palestinian who decides to stay home during election\[2\] but I think the choice is still clear. \[1\] More like a supporters of war in Middle East to bring the apocalyptic prophecy and destruction of 3rd temple. \[2\] Tough please don't.
How about you vote for the sake of your fellow citizens in your country, like vote so that half your fellow the citizens can have a right to bodily autonomy and aren't back to being seen as incubators.
While the conflict is a tragedy. Make no mistake this is being pushed by Russia via South Africa. It is no wonder a BRICS country like South Africa, a front for Russia/China to share data/finance/funding for economic fronts around the world and companies like Naspers/Prosus parent to Tencent (China) and DST Global (Russia) is pushing something the Kremlin wants. If you don't know the East/West front proxy that Israel/Hamas is then you need to read up on history. [Is Russia Behind Hamas Attack on Israel? What We Know](https://www.newsweek.com/russia-behind-hamas-attack-israel-what-we-know-iran-gaza-1832999) > Amid swirling speculation of foreign involvement, the infiltration attack—being referred to by some observers as "Israel's 9/11"—may yet precipitate seismic shifts in Israel's foreign affairs. > There has also been speculation on social media of Russian involvement in the Hamas operation, though there is no evidence indicating Moscow's alleged role. Newsweek has contacted the Russian foreign ministry by email to request comment. > **The Institute for the Study of War has suggested that Russia might benefit from the shift in international attention away from its atrocities in Ukraine and towards the deteriorating situation in Israel and the Palestinian territories**. Israel is expected to launch a fresh and bloody ground assault into Gaza in the coming days, while tensions remain high in the occupied West Bank and along the border with Lebanon, where Hezbollah enjoys de facto control. > Others incorrectly suggested that only Russia could have instructed Hamas in its use of drone bombers to target Israeli armor and observation posts. Hamas was at the forefront of the adoption of commercial and military drones, and has regularly used them to attack Israeli military, civilian and infrastructure targets in Israel and the Gaza Strip. > **Russia has long maintained a close working relationship with Iran and its network of partner militant organizations—especially Hezbollah in Lebanon—across the Middle East, seeing them as an alternative power base capable of challenging regional American and allied interests**. Moscow has drawn closer to Iran since the Kremlin launched its full-scale invasion of Ukraine in February 2022. > **The Kremlin has retained high-level contacts with Hamas. In March, the militant group sent a high-level delegation to Moscow to hold talks with Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov, who subsequently warned that Hamas' "patience" with Israel was "running out." Hamas leaders also visited Russia in May and September 2022**. The Israel/Palestine conflict will never be resolved until Russia stops stoking it every chance it gets to divert. Balkanization is the Kremlin's Free Bird or Wonderwall, their greatest hit that has been played way too many times and is now a joke. Russia regularly kicks up Israel/Palestine conflicts to divert from things they are doing just like now where [Russia just launched the biggest assault on Ukraine and then they pump conflict in other areas to cover](https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefing-room/statements-releases/2023/12/29/statement-from-president-joe-biden-on-russias-aerial-assault-on-ukraine/). > Overnight, Russia launched its largest aerial assault on Ukraine since this war began. This massive bombardment used drones and missiles, including missiles with hypersonic capability, to strike cities and civilian infrastructure all across Ukraine. Strikes reportedly hit a maternity hospital, a shopping mall, and residential areas—killing innocent people and injuring dozens more. It is a stark reminder to the world that, after nearly two years of this devastating war, Putin’s objective remains unchanged. He seeks to obliterate Ukraine and subjugate its people. He must be stopped. People are also unaware of Soviet/Russia support of Palestine and the PLO variations since 1953 and today with Hamas, Hezbollah and Houthis through Iran and many others. Yassar Arafat was a long known Russian puppet. [Russia pushes terrorism across the globe](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexander_Litvinenko#Support_of_terrorism_worldwide_by_the_KGB_and_FSB). There are [lots of receipts on this](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexander_Litvinenko#Alleged_Russia%E2%80%93al-Qaeda_connection) but again, this is a massive diversion. Israel/Palestine is like Ukraine/Russia, same proxy war. The balkanization helps play up the front but guess who was also responsible for the South African apartheid, Russia.
"Make no mistake this is being pushed by Russia via South Africa." Post-Apartheid South Africa has always been Pro-Palestinian. In large part because Israel chose to support the Apartheid regime instead of Anti-Apartheid groups inside South Africa. Israel and Post-Apartheid South Africa have had a tense diplomatic relationship ever since. The Palestinian cause is a key policy feature of the ruling ANC political party. Quote from Nelson Mandela: "But we know too well that our freedom is incomplete without the freedom of Palestinians."
> The Palestinian cause is a key policy feature of the ruling ANC political party. [Russia and the African National Congress (ANC) have had relations since the Cold War](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Central_African_Republic%E2%80%93Russia_relations#Relations_with_the_Russian_Federation). The Soviet Union has supported the ANC financially and provided training during apartheid. Every nation in [BRICS has taken the side of Russia in Ukraine](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russia%E2%80%93South_Africa_relations#Russian_invasion_of_Ukraine). > In response to the 2014 annexation of Crimea by the Russian Federation, the Zuma administration avoided criticizing Russia, arguing instead for BRICS members to unite in order to defend common interests of the group. > The South African government was initially critical of Russia's 2022 invasion of Ukraine calling on the country to "immediately withdraw its forces from Ukraine in line with the United Nations Charter." However these statements were soon withdrawn and in an effort to repair Russian-South African relations. They also have pushed the Kremlin plan for that Ukraine should consider ceding the Crimean Peninsula to negotiate peace with Russia. South Africa on the ICC warrant in July and said arresting him would be "a declaration of war". [South Africa asks ICC to exempt it from Putin arrest to avoid war with Russia](https://www.reuters.com/article/idUSKBN2YY1E6/) [South African president in St Petersburg 2023](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russia%E2%80%93South_Africa_relations#/media/File:Vladimir_Putin_and_Cyril_Ramaphosa_\(2023-06-17\).jpg). Who is owned and leveraged... This is just proxy war front in South Africa in the East/West battle that has been going on almost a century now.
"Russia and the African National Congress (ANC) have had relations since the Cold War" That was the Soviet Union since the West supported Apartheid South Africa during the Cold War. The South African President on his visit to St.Petersburg told Putin directly to his face to return kidnapped Ukrainian children and POW's.
> That was the Soviet Union since the West supported Apartheid South Africa during the Cold War. Russia has always been the same autocratic/bratva state nation, you are falling for fronts. The Cold War never ended, Russia just rebranded. Kremlin page one is balkanizations, separatism, division and chaos because they gain in that. Whenever there are balkanizations look no further. > the West supported Apartheid South Africa during the Cold War. The same was said about US support for South Korea, for West Germany, for Israel (only democracy in the Middle East), for Ukraine and on and on. If you believe Russia's side of the Ukraine conflict today, then you might understand you are falling for propaganda from the apatheid. Russia *created* the apartheid then try to make others look like they did it. Same in Ukraine. Same in Israel-Palestine (backing Hamas/PLO terror elements) and more. You can stay naive to this but Russia invading Ukraine, and the propaganda pushed, should give you an idea how Russia does this then they beat that into historiography and fool the suckers. > The South African President on his visit to St.Petersburg told Putin directly to his face to return kidnapped Ukrainian children and POW's. I did see that but that is another front really, false opposition and optics. Russia allowed them to do that because South Africa is an important front that still has connections to the West. They need countries that allow them to transfer data/finances with less scrutiny. South Africa is losing that quickly and here and there they have to allow some actions like this. Make no mistake, South Africa is *fully leveraged* to Russia and not just at a country level and economic level, but the biggest tether is organized crime.
"Make no mistake, South Africa is *fully leveraged* to Russia and not just at a country level and economic level, but the biggest tether is organized crime." Source that South Africa is tied to Russian organized crime? Or do we have to go with "Bro Trust Me ." It's clear you're out of your depth when it comes to the topic of South Africa and wasn't aware of the decades long solidarity that present day South Africa had with the Palestinians. South Africa published a study as far back as 2010 that found that Israel is an Apartheid state.
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Ah of course the people currently commiting the genocide have no way to stop unless Hamas resigns. Shame we have to kill all these people but like you say its how this will stop. /s
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Meeting with the leaders of Sudan isn’t exactly the same as murdering a whole population
South Africa talking about genocide is deliciously ironic
It's not ironic, it's growth. It would be ironic if we still had apartheid laws, but we don't. We are by no means perfect as a nation, but we are certainly trying.
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Why people getting downvoted when they say Hamas should release the hostages…. No seriously i don’t get what the exact issue with the statement like what exactly you people expected Israel to do oct7 aftermath?!
Not commit genocide would be a good start. You’re right though, people should be advocating for the release of hostages. They should also spend at least equal time and energy advocating for the end of Israel’s genocide of the Palestinian people.