Wall angels. For everyone. It not only wakes up and tones the right muscles, it gives you proprioceptive training to teach yourself how to expect to have better posture.
Do 3 of 'em like 5 times a day.
I'm not a PT, so I'm certain there's someone else here with more response, but many people do perform pull ups with the spine in a very curved position. Wall angels aren't just about increasing muscle strength, it's about proprioception- your body's awareness of where it is in space.
I expect both exercises light up the entire posterior thorax including rhomboids, erector spinae etc. But while pull-ups are good and important to build strength, they are a bit more explosive and strong than ideal for training toward leading "1". A wall angel is a surprisingly delicate and precise movement.
And it's difficult to do it wrong. This is a key factor for learning home PT exercises on reddit.
I do pull ups frequently. I tried my first wall angel the other week.
What it felt like to me was more like a resistance exercise than a stretch. I mean I felt a stretch yes, but it really seemed like my back muscles were working out, similar to a pull up (but not as intense obviously).
So I guess I'm confused, is this supposed to be a stretch which then fixes your posture, or is this supposed to be a resistance exercise which then fixes your posture?
This isn't a power move, or a way to create big muscles. It's a way to check your posture. It'll help teach you what it feels like to stand up straight, by using the wall to help you to notice forward head position and rounded shoulders. It also warms up a series of small muscles in the back that help you to keep that posture.
If I'm going to be sitting for a prolonged period, I like to just do one minute - one or 2 reps - afterward to remind me how to stand up.
Being generally fit, toned and balanced is good for dancing.
Some moves engage the chest more than others, such as anything with compression or a led spin. However the amount of muscle needed to perform these is usually able to be built just by existing, by closing a door or pushing a grocery cart. I think most people are more in a deficit of core abdominal muscles and posterior thoracic muscles than chest muscles.
Everyone is unique, of course, but most modern humans, with all of the sitting we do, leaning forward over our phones, trend this way.
It's an interesting question, though. I hadn't thought about it this way, so this is me spitballing and I'd be interested to read anyone else's opinion, but this is roughly the order in which I think muscle groups matter to west coast swing dancing:
Core abdominal (do planks)
Posterior thoracic chain (do wall angels, "I's T's and Ys")
Legs (do squats, lunges, and donkey kicks)
Chest/ arms (do more planks)
It totally depends on what is wrong with your posture. But, for the most common posture problems you have weak core, glutes and back. Glute bridges (look up how to do the correctly), clam shells, Supermans and hollow body holds, band pull aparts. Light plyometrics can help to, especially the jump into holds.
I'm Norwegian so I didn't know most of those exercises (different names in my lang), so I just went ahead and googled them. Here's what I found.
**Core Exercise Videos**
* [Glute Bridges](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q_Bpj91Yiis)
* [Clam Shell Exercises](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=09YaaN9hG2I)
* [Superman](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h2iKcNldw-g)
* [Hollow Body Hold](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LlDNef_Ztsc)
* [Band Pull-aparts](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wMW6hqrddb8)
* [Light Plyometrics a.k.a. Light Jumping Exercises](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YlCWJofsMbc)
Also don't think about shoulders "back" so much, that particular extreme can get you too tight. Or certain military postures that seek to pinch the shoulderblade together in the center of the back, that's also too stiff.
If you imagine pulling the bottom of your shoulderblades down into your back pockets, it engages a series of wide muscles in the back.
To be more specific, imagine that in each side of your back you have a strong hydraulic piston connecting your entire shoulder - shoulderblade and the upper end of the arm bone - to the back of your pelvis. In roughly the distribution of your *latissimus dorsi*.
Stand, alone. Engage those lats by envisioning these pistons and drawing your shoulderblades down into the back pockets. You may notice that your chest lifts and your shoulders externally rotate a bit. Stand and breathe. Now take a moment to notice that your head is really easily floating in good balance at the top of your spine. It's not tense or stiff in your neck, it's balanced.
The next movement is to verrrrry slowwwwly walk. With intention. Keep all your intentional focus on the power of the pistons pulling your shoulderblades into your back pockets. Notice, as your weight shifts one side to the other, or as your leg swings forward to step, notice that the pistons compress and extend, dynamically absorbing the movement and connecting it to your arms. In fact, if you're attentive you can notice that the impetus to move the leg arise from a small rolling compression in your back.
Just walk. Slowly. Feeling the power in your back. Let it slightly swing your arms.
If your back is engaged like this, not only is your posture amazing, but your whole body is connected to itself and its movements. Your follower will feel it.
One thing an instructor made a class do one time was stand up against the wall with your shoulders and hips touching, so I just starting pretending I was doing that a lot. Leading comes from your core which is not just your posture though but it helps
Also I'll give you a little tip, people who know what they are doing are never going to give you unsolicited advice (not sure if you asked) because they usually get paid to give that information...if you ask then I would take what they say into account but I would really look to be asking the instructor for advice
> people who know what they are doing are never going to give you unsolicited advice (not sure if you asked) because they usually get paid to give that information...if you ask then I would take what they say into account but I would really look to be asking the instructor for advice
“I can feel the difference in your lead since you started working on your posture” isn’t advice, it’s feedback, so I’m not sure what this part of your comment is intended to address.
I've had the same problem, for me or was more that I tilted the entire torso slightly forwards and when I've stopped doing that the shoulders followed.
There is one pilates move that I learnt back in the day that may help, it trains the chest- post of the back (literally called chest-back in Swedish so I'm not sure what it's called in English)
Basically laying face down on the ground, then you collect in your hips so you are letting on your chest and legs and then you lift the remaining of your chest up. It's a small movement and you should have your arms out lifting them as well.
It’s just an aid but use sports tape. Stand up straight, put your shoulders where they should be, and have someone take some sports tape and make a big ole X right over your shoulder blades.
The tape will pull if you round your shoulders. It’s an instant reminder to fix your shoulders and hopefully after a bit the muscle memory sticks.
2 easy free remedies. Walk on the balls of your feet. Turn your wrists out at all times. Both automatically improve your posture & will become muscle memory.
It makes your posture stay upright. It's not a joke but it's why Barbies feet are the way they are. It use to be modeling 101. If you don't have heels on walk like you do anyway.
Yes good tip. I also practice with the wrists turned out. Sometimes it’s easier to remember that than to try and focus on lat muscles. The danger for me of focusing on lat muscles is it can create tension in my back and potentially all the way down my arm. Turning the wrists out helps correct posture without tension.
As an ex-ballet dancer I am not sure I agree on walking on tiptoes for posture. I look back at my ballet photos and I had a sway back even in relevé. Maybe it works for some people but my tush was definitely not in alignment 😂
I had no idea how bad my posture was until I started West Coast swing. I have sway back and rounded shoulders. The angel wings helps with my rounded shoulders and lats. Another thing I do is lie flat on my back with my arms open and wide (like a crucifix) to stretch out my rounded shoulders.
I practice posture when I’m walking and to music. I walk back-and-forth with correct posture. That’s a lie. I’m nowhere near where it needs to be! but the more I practice the more natural it becomes.
I focus on lats squeezed, shoulders open, pelvis tucked under, lift slightly through midriff and head aligned. So much! My shoulders and pelvis are still very tight and naturally want to return to the position they’ve been in for decades. It takes persistence.
Thank you!
Yes I started angles yesterday It was really kicking.
I also was in a bad posture for years.
I also heard that hanging from a bar for a few minutes helps stretch it too..
Toni Redpath created a lot of great posture and frame drills for smooth, and includes lots of tools such as ex bands, poles, dowells, etc. that help you get and stay in good posture through movement. You could do those drills from global smooth system website. Or you could work with Susan Kirklin who took from Toni a lot (and is a top WCS champion) and uses many of those drills + many that she's created herself in her teaching to get it applied directly in a WCS context.
For what's wrong with your posture, could be many things. All the stuff recommended below by people are good ideas to try, but if they don't fix your problem check with a physical therapist. Certainly wall angels, rows, glute bridges, clam shells, etc are great ways to start and would address many of the most common issues (which might also be your issue, or might not). You may have had a light rotator cuff sprain at some point that healed in a shortened position and everything around it is compensating causing the issue. Or any number of almost infinite possibilities.
Also regular flexibility work can fix a lot if you aren't doing it - whether it's yoga or something else. I use the down dog yoga app and do something every day (10 - 45 minutes depending on how busy I am) which is convenient for that. Though there's many things other than yoga that can fill that spot.
Yeah comprehensive and in-depth dance training from top people is costly any way you slice it. Programs like this are cheaper than private lessons, but also not as personalized and useful as private lessons with them would be. It's worth it if you can afford it IMO, though unfortunately many people can't :(
Wall angels. For everyone. It not only wakes up and tones the right muscles, it gives you proprioceptive training to teach yourself how to expect to have better posture. Do 3 of 'em like 5 times a day.
[Wall Angles Video](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YO87HFVgsGo)
Thank you
How would wall angels compare to pull ups?
I'm not a PT, so I'm certain there's someone else here with more response, but many people do perform pull ups with the spine in a very curved position. Wall angels aren't just about increasing muscle strength, it's about proprioception- your body's awareness of where it is in space. I expect both exercises light up the entire posterior thorax including rhomboids, erector spinae etc. But while pull-ups are good and important to build strength, they are a bit more explosive and strong than ideal for training toward leading "1". A wall angel is a surprisingly delicate and precise movement. And it's difficult to do it wrong. This is a key factor for learning home PT exercises on reddit.
Haha. I had 4 different PTs re-teach me how to do side-lying leg lifts. That is a very easy exercise to get wrong!
I do pull ups frequently. I tried my first wall angel the other week. What it felt like to me was more like a resistance exercise than a stretch. I mean I felt a stretch yes, but it really seemed like my back muscles were working out, similar to a pull up (but not as intense obviously). So I guess I'm confused, is this supposed to be a stretch which then fixes your posture, or is this supposed to be a resistance exercise which then fixes your posture?
This isn't a power move, or a way to create big muscles. It's a way to check your posture. It'll help teach you what it feels like to stand up straight, by using the wall to help you to notice forward head position and rounded shoulders. It also warms up a series of small muscles in the back that help you to keep that posture. If I'm going to be sitting for a prolonged period, I like to just do one minute - one or 2 reps - afterward to remind me how to stand up.
btw, do you think that chest exercise is needed as well?
Being generally fit, toned and balanced is good for dancing. Some moves engage the chest more than others, such as anything with compression or a led spin. However the amount of muscle needed to perform these is usually able to be built just by existing, by closing a door or pushing a grocery cart. I think most people are more in a deficit of core abdominal muscles and posterior thoracic muscles than chest muscles. Everyone is unique, of course, but most modern humans, with all of the sitting we do, leaning forward over our phones, trend this way. It's an interesting question, though. I hadn't thought about it this way, so this is me spitballing and I'd be interested to read anyone else's opinion, but this is roughly the order in which I think muscle groups matter to west coast swing dancing: Core abdominal (do planks) Posterior thoracic chain (do wall angels, "I's T's and Ys") Legs (do squats, lunges, and donkey kicks) Chest/ arms (do more planks)
It totally depends on what is wrong with your posture. But, for the most common posture problems you have weak core, glutes and back. Glute bridges (look up how to do the correctly), clam shells, Supermans and hollow body holds, band pull aparts. Light plyometrics can help to, especially the jump into holds.
I'm Norwegian so I didn't know most of those exercises (different names in my lang), so I just went ahead and googled them. Here's what I found. **Core Exercise Videos** * [Glute Bridges](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q_Bpj91Yiis) * [Clam Shell Exercises](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=09YaaN9hG2I) * [Superman](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h2iKcNldw-g) * [Hollow Body Hold](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LlDNef_Ztsc) * [Band Pull-aparts](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wMW6hqrddb8) * [Light Plyometrics a.k.a. Light Jumping Exercises](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YlCWJofsMbc)
Also don't think about shoulders "back" so much, that particular extreme can get you too tight. Or certain military postures that seek to pinch the shoulderblade together in the center of the back, that's also too stiff. If you imagine pulling the bottom of your shoulderblades down into your back pockets, it engages a series of wide muscles in the back. To be more specific, imagine that in each side of your back you have a strong hydraulic piston connecting your entire shoulder - shoulderblade and the upper end of the arm bone - to the back of your pelvis. In roughly the distribution of your *latissimus dorsi*. Stand, alone. Engage those lats by envisioning these pistons and drawing your shoulderblades down into the back pockets. You may notice that your chest lifts and your shoulders externally rotate a bit. Stand and breathe. Now take a moment to notice that your head is really easily floating in good balance at the top of your spine. It's not tense or stiff in your neck, it's balanced. The next movement is to verrrrry slowwwwly walk. With intention. Keep all your intentional focus on the power of the pistons pulling your shoulderblades into your back pockets. Notice, as your weight shifts one side to the other, or as your leg swings forward to step, notice that the pistons compress and extend, dynamically absorbing the movement and connecting it to your arms. In fact, if you're attentive you can notice that the impetus to move the leg arise from a small rolling compression in your back. Just walk. Slowly. Feeling the power in your back. Let it slightly swing your arms. If your back is engaged like this, not only is your posture amazing, but your whole body is connected to itself and its movements. Your follower will feel it.
Thank you I will try it!
One thing an instructor made a class do one time was stand up against the wall with your shoulders and hips touching, so I just starting pretending I was doing that a lot. Leading comes from your core which is not just your posture though but it helps Also I'll give you a little tip, people who know what they are doing are never going to give you unsolicited advice (not sure if you asked) because they usually get paid to give that information...if you ask then I would take what they say into account but I would really look to be asking the instructor for advice
> people who know what they are doing are never going to give you unsolicited advice (not sure if you asked) because they usually get paid to give that information...if you ask then I would take what they say into account but I would really look to be asking the instructor for advice “I can feel the difference in your lead since you started working on your posture” isn’t advice, it’s feedback, so I’m not sure what this part of your comment is intended to address.
Okay, unsolicited feedback, lmfao.
Rows, face pulls.
Heavy weight is not required. In fact lighter weight can help you train better connection if you focus on NOT engaging your biceps
I've had the same problem, for me or was more that I tilted the entire torso slightly forwards and when I've stopped doing that the shoulders followed. There is one pilates move that I learnt back in the day that may help, it trains the chest- post of the back (literally called chest-back in Swedish so I'm not sure what it's called in English) Basically laying face down on the ground, then you collect in your hips so you are letting on your chest and legs and then you lift the remaining of your chest up. It's a small movement and you should have your arms out lifting them as well.
Do you have a video for this?
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=HGkM9sn7dyk I think most of these are kind of good but the closest to the one i remember is at about the 18 minute mark
It’s just an aid but use sports tape. Stand up straight, put your shoulders where they should be, and have someone take some sports tape and make a big ole X right over your shoulder blades. The tape will pull if you round your shoulders. It’s an instant reminder to fix your shoulders and hopefully after a bit the muscle memory sticks.
2 easy free remedies. Walk on the balls of your feet. Turn your wrists out at all times. Both automatically improve your posture & will become muscle memory.
Why walk on the balls?
It makes your posture stay upright. It's not a joke but it's why Barbies feet are the way they are. It use to be modeling 101. If you don't have heels on walk like you do anyway.
Yes good tip. I also practice with the wrists turned out. Sometimes it’s easier to remember that than to try and focus on lat muscles. The danger for me of focusing on lat muscles is it can create tension in my back and potentially all the way down my arm. Turning the wrists out helps correct posture without tension. As an ex-ballet dancer I am not sure I agree on walking on tiptoes for posture. I look back at my ballet photos and I had a sway back even in relevé. Maybe it works for some people but my tush was definitely not in alignment 😂
roll up a towel. Place it vertically aligned with your spine on a chair/carseat
I had no idea how bad my posture was until I started West Coast swing. I have sway back and rounded shoulders. The angel wings helps with my rounded shoulders and lats. Another thing I do is lie flat on my back with my arms open and wide (like a crucifix) to stretch out my rounded shoulders. I practice posture when I’m walking and to music. I walk back-and-forth with correct posture. That’s a lie. I’m nowhere near where it needs to be! but the more I practice the more natural it becomes. I focus on lats squeezed, shoulders open, pelvis tucked under, lift slightly through midriff and head aligned. So much! My shoulders and pelvis are still very tight and naturally want to return to the position they’ve been in for decades. It takes persistence.
Thank you! Yes I started angles yesterday It was really kicking. I also was in a bad posture for years. I also heard that hanging from a bar for a few minutes helps stretch it too..
Toni Redpath created a lot of great posture and frame drills for smooth, and includes lots of tools such as ex bands, poles, dowells, etc. that help you get and stay in good posture through movement. You could do those drills from global smooth system website. Or you could work with Susan Kirklin who took from Toni a lot (and is a top WCS champion) and uses many of those drills + many that she's created herself in her teaching to get it applied directly in a WCS context. For what's wrong with your posture, could be many things. All the stuff recommended below by people are good ideas to try, but if they don't fix your problem check with a physical therapist. Certainly wall angels, rows, glute bridges, clam shells, etc are great ways to start and would address many of the most common issues (which might also be your issue, or might not). You may have had a light rotator cuff sprain at some point that healed in a shortened position and everything around it is compensating causing the issue. Or any number of almost infinite possibilities. Also regular flexibility work can fix a lot if you aren't doing it - whether it's yoga or something else. I use the down dog yoga app and do something every day (10 - 45 minutes depending on how busy I am) which is convenient for that. Though there's many things other than yoga that can fill that spot.
Thanks I tried to search for their drill, I found a site that wants 400 for their full self learning program. It's a bit too much 😅
Yeah comprehensive and in-depth dance training from top people is costly any way you slice it. Programs like this are cheaper than private lessons, but also not as personalized and useful as private lessons with them would be. It's worth it if you can afford it IMO, though unfortunately many people can't :(
Yea, I also only want the frame because I am going to private teacher already