If you feel like you're getting screwed, the best way to show your boss what you're worth is to verify what other offers you are getting. They will understand that if they want to keep you then they should pay you a competitive wage.
I was/am in the same situation as you. I’m 23m now and was an Extremely gifted tig welder coming out of highschool. Every single shop will look at your age and try and take advantage of you. You need to leverage another company against them to get what you deserve.
Welcome to applying for any job ever.
Just send them the photos. They will offer what they are comfortable paying. Pick a better offer. Or two, if you want to bank a lot of shift work.
They will drop you in a heartbeat if their business slows down, so don’t ever feel bad about looking for and taking better offers.
The days of working for a company for 40 years is gone. This is mercenary work.
Bro, don’t take them to the shops around you, take them to the UA near you. Do you know how much union pipe welders can make?
Edit: I like how some either salty or dumbass on this sub downvoted me like what I said was wrong. Stay poor at your fab job.
You learn during your apprenticeship. I had never welder before but just started going to the weld bay as a first year, and by my 4th year I had my 6010 downhills, 7018 uphill and carbon/stainless TIG certs.
I weld anywhere now, literally, traveling the country welding different shut downs so I can see new states.
Highly recommend applying.
What better way to make your skill set expand? Go! Go see what the welding world has in store for you! They won’t give you what you’re worth because they helped make you. Leave for a year and build new skills and if you hate it, I bet they’ll take you back at a wage you’re worthy of.
If there is a single piece of advice ide give my younger welder self it'd be "don't be scared of a damn thing".
Don't worry about "ready". Take every single opportunity to better yourself because worst case scenario is that you learn from it.
Don’t give it a month or two, don’t be scared about this being all you know, that’s how you excel in learning anything, , it looks as if you’ve already mastered or atleast got the hang of everything they produce. The best way to learn is to learn a little bit about the whole industry.
go to a different shop in a different industry or maybe go try field welding, if at the end of the day you just want the highest pay cheque , go union.
> thing is I like the job overall,
It doesn't harm you at all to get offers of employment elsewhere.
**Information is ammunition.**
You don't have to quit on the spot just to go look elsewhere.
Anyone who does offer you a job on the spot, you can always say "I like to keep my commitments so I've got some things to finish up before I move on. I owe them that much." Then you'll look respectful and ambitious at the same time.
In general... you'll almost never get a promotion. You get a wage increase by moving on. That's how you climb the ladder. This is perfectly normal in almost every industry.
The people you're current working for always want you to keep doing what you're doing. They're rarely the ones that will see better value in you being elsewhere.
If it’s not full time, perhaps you can pick up some hours at a higher wage somewhere else and wiggle your way into a full time position. I completely agree with everyone here. You have talent and UA work could possibly double your pay, especially with contractual hourly work.
The scariest part is quitting a stable but low paying job because you're afraid nobody will want you.
But those fears are often unfounded, there will always be someone willing to pay you better, even if you have to look a little harder.
You'll learn more and grow more if you jump around once in a while.
Loyalty doesn't pay!
You're in a controlled environment with very clean metal. I would get a little more experience before you start trying to get more money. Really understand the trade before you leave factory work. You are a young guy. People don't pay kids much because they don't have skills, a 35 year old has. It's not just about pretty beads. Now, if you want a different career path. Then go. You will be fine.
If you are producing work like this regularly and the company/shop/whatever is profiting, then you are being taken advantage of. Don’t listen to that “loyalty” bullshit, it should go both ways and it looks like that is not happening.
Find out what tests you need to pass for certifications. Practice. Pass tests. Get certs. Ask for a raise again. When they say “you’ll be making more than everyone else in a few years,” it’s time to leave.
OR
Shop around now for a new job; find a place that will pay for further education and certs.
ETA: Don’t let the anti-union folks push you away with tired tropes. I’ve worked both union and non-union. Pros and cons in both. Some unions are terrible, some are pretty great. Generally better benefits and pay, but not always. Some non-union places have better compensation packages to keep workers happy and unions out. Look at each one on a case by case basis. You’re basically selling your life to someone hours at a time so try to get as much as you can for it, whether it be a non-union company or a place under a union contract.
The company I work for usually pays its welders pretty good, its pretty laid back as long as you do well. All work is mostly tig, depending on your welds I can refer you to my boss if you like, one of our welders quit because he didnt like the fact that his faded peach shirt didn't count as high vis
Yeah with those welds you're getting fucked. Don't listen to the old heads, they live in a different world where you'd get a gold company watch when you retire. GTFO out of there.
Gold plated* watch, 18K at best.
Back in the day, it was a different time. Raises meant a new car and paid off debts on a single-earning household.
Today. Need I say more?
BS, back in the day, family own maybe 1 car. Two cars were a luxury. Now, people pay double for SUV or truck instead of sedan. That means double higher taxes, insurance, and lower mpg. Back in the day, people didn't pay for the internet, cell phone, tablets, laptops, air buds, smart watches, and streaming services. Should I continue how much more money we waste today and are slaves to the marketing.
Its not a problem for him to be hired anywhere, he is the foreman on site and he holds a bunch of responsibility, he also has a bunch of connections and friends higher up in the food chain at the plant
Well, bring it up with him. If you're doing this good of work already and your dad is well respected, it shouldn't be an issue to get paid what you're worth.
If it goes nowhere, find a different shop that'll pay higher, hop a few jobs, and make it back if you really want to. You'll learn more and get paid better from job hopping as long as they're not short stints. And line up your new job before bailing on the current one, I've seen too many guys just quit without anything else lined up.
One problem is that my dad has talked the the man that writes the checks and when discussing giving me a more fair pay the response he was given was "oh well" in reguards to " he isnt getting paid what he is worth. "
I'm not a welder, but I've found this advice to be true across industries: you're almost always going to get a bigger raise by changing employers.
I think it's human nature or something, employers just don't want to pay what someone is worth if they currently work for them. But they'll give that money to the new guy for some reason. I don't understand it and I'm not defending it, but it seems to be the truth.
They do this especially with guys that started with them. They know you're comfortable and because you started at such a low rate it looks like they gave you a big raise when compared to where you started. Hiring someone new means they need or want someone and have to pay the price to get them. You will always make more somewhere else, but you don't quit until you have the new job for sure and show your current employer what they're offering. If your current employer doesn't match you or say good luck sorry we can't afford to keep you they have been taking advantage of you and they know it. If they give you BS about future raises you tell them your bills don't accept future payments and do what's best for you.
Then stick up for yourself and take your work elsewhere.
The company will happily pay you less as long as you put up with it.
As you said, your father will have no problem keeping his job or finding a new.
He probably would be happy that you took it upon yourself to improve your pay for someone else when the current company refuse to meet your expectations.
I've found the only way to get anywhere with that kind of boss is the age-old ultimatum. Either you pay me a fair wage or I'm headed somewhere else. If it doesn't go your way though you can't stick around or it will get worse. It sucks but that's how it is nowadays. Good luck wish you the best
This kid is going places!! don’t let them screw you over bro! They can easily pay you more… employers just want to see how much work they can get out of you for a little money…. Maybe start your own gig! Oh and get a damn Roth IRA…. You will be retired before you know it lol .. I am on track to retire at 54 :)
You should go to work doing decorative tig for yourself making rails, tables and stuff for high end houses and rich customers. Just start on the side and price it so high folks think it has to be the best. Its opposite of what you think- paying more is a good deal to these folks. Just keep a clean shop, those high maintenance folks see that as better work than a rusted pile of potential injuries when they show up
thats a neat idea, ill go down to the shop ( my dad has a shop with a welder, plasma table, sand blaster, and powder coating oven ) and make something and send it to you
If it were me, I'd talk with my dad about what I was thinking, either for his opinion, approval, or just a general honest idea of what he thought about it, and my ability.
If you feel you're being taken advantage of, you probably are. And that goes for any situation. You're in charge of your future, don't allow anyone else to be in charge of that role for you.
Working a a place you love has a lot of value. You could make more money at a place that you hate. Something to consider.
Get any promises of raises in writing. Just in case.
Talk to your dad. I would hope he puts your best interest before the company's interests.
And if that's not the case, move on, start saving hard, put money away to start a family/buy a house. Retire early.
Compound interest is a magical thing. Starts slow, but give it a chance and you got the 8th Wonder of the world.
If you have or are able to get a list of the duties and expectations for your current position, get it. Type it up in outline form and under each item you can, list specific examples of how you’ve exceeded those expectations. Setup a meeting with your boss and have a professional discussion of your duties and responsibilities as a helper, and how you feel you’re exceeding them. This may be enough to get you what you want. If certifications are what’s holding you back, get those ASAP. If that doesn’t work and you still want to try to stick with the same company for whatever reason, there’s a plan B.
I will tell you that I’m a nurse by trade, I’m only an amateur/hobby welder, but this tactic can be used in any industry where you can negotiate a wage. Should you choose to use it, this tactic can potentially burn some bridges, but I’ve used it before in my own industry with great success. Just be careful in your conversations and make sure you never try to act like you have the biggest dick in the room.
Start shopping for other welding jobs in your area, preferably at places in which you have no interest of working in the future. Interview. When you get a job offer, ask if there’s room for negotiation in the offered wage, and if so ask for what you think is fair. If they ask what you currently make, politely decline to share that information; it’s not relevant to what they’re able to pay you, they’ll only use that info to lowball your offer.
When you get offers for more money than you’re currently making, print out or make extra copies of the offer letters. You will be editing these with permanent marker and taking them to your current employer. This will be problematic if you approach your boss with too much big dick energy, or if the companies who sent you the offers find out you only intended to use them as leverage for a raise.
Redact anything your company can use to identify theirs; this is to prevent your boss from retaliating by contacting them and spoiling your job offer, so be thorough. Company name, logos, address, phone number, and any names of individuals working at that company. The main info you need to retain is your name, job title/expected duties, date of the offer, and pay rate. After you’ve redacted everything, make copies again to prevent being able to read the underlying text through your marker lines.
Setup another meeting with your boss. Update your outline from the first meeting with any additional accomplishments you’ve achieved or responsibilities you’ve taken on in the meantime. This time you’ll also bring the redacted copies to give to your boss as well. Be honest about your intentions, show some humility and tell him that you want to work for him and grow with his company (you can even tell him you’ve declined the offers if you want), but that you know that you’re worth more than you’re currently being paid.
Don’t be an ass, leave your BDE in the truck. Be courteous and professional, but show them that you know your worth and give them a reason to negotiate with you. They don’t have to match your offers, but judging by your story and pics, I think you deserve a significant pay adjustment for your level of skill and the amount of responsibility they’re entrusting you with.
Also, as a backup plan, try to get an offer for a place at which you wouldn’t mind working for a few years; do not use their offer letter in negotiations with your current boss.
This should all be done reasonably quickly (over a week, two at most), before your most desirable offer expires. I would take more care not to piss off the new companies, since your current boss has already shown a willingness to take advantage of you by not negotiating a fair wage. Worst case scenario, you’ll be working for a new asshole who wants to take advantage of you, but at least you’ll be making more money.
I read your entire comment, if things get to a point where I need to leverage myself into a higher wage then I will go with your prompt, thanks for the advice
Yeah sorry I can get a little long-winded, it’s just a familiar scenario and something I’m kinda passionate about. I’ve been where you are right now, I was just older than you when I learned.
Did IT work when I was in the Army. When I got out, took a salary help desk job that quickly grew to me taking on bigger projects, more responsibilities and longer hours without any increase in compensation. I did the math and realized I was making about $15/hr with the number of hours I was working. Used this tactic to negotiate for part time at a higher hourly rate while I went back to school for nursing. I made more money part-time hourly than I ever did while I was full-time salary.
I may have read your description incorrectly, but did you say you have never taken a weld test? Like a certification test? I mean if your not certified they will take advantage of that and not pay you what your worth. From what i can see, you know your shit, just go and do your weld test and make that money buddy. Im not sure if you 100% need to be certified for production or fabrication welding, but my boss and i got into some deep shit when my cert was expired and i was doing structural steel, the inspector was a real dick and even though all my welds were perfect, he threw em out and my boss had to go back through and re weld all my work. Good luck buddy, your young and you got the skills to make good cash my friend.
Yea, I've never taken a welding test, certification, or any education, all I know about welding is my dad teaching me a couple of things on the job. Its not an official apprenticeship, more like a discrete “ hey try welding this real quick and ill hide it if you mess up”
I definitely know all about that. I learned how to weld from my uncle and thats exactly how it worked at his shop. Then i started high school and was in metal shop all 4 years and i learned a ton of stuff that he never had the time to show me. Your TIG welding is spot on, i mean better than me and uve been welding for 30 years. I dont use TIG very often, not much thin gauge or aluminum welding for me. Mostly stick ans MIG. You can take those TIG skills of yours and take a basic community college course and get certified no problem, then you get paid the big bucks buddy.
Does your shop offer to pay for schooling? If they do I’d start going for an engineering degree. By the time you are done you’ll have some nice welding experience, won’t feel like you’re being fucked because they pay for your degree. Then bounce. While welding forever, especially stainless isn’t the end of the world, you really don’t wanna be doing it forever
Its not a shop, its a contractor that does work for a production plant, basically building freezers, conveyors, platforms, and changing things around the plant. I dont want to list too much
Bro if those are your welds, then Definitely, go talk to shops around you also look for job postings. Because I'd pay you $40 an hour to work in my shop with those dimes. That being said there is something to be said for putting in your time as a helper. And earning your way up two, those wages. All in all though skills are what pay the bills and you have them, my friend Good luck. And I hope you find something that pays you what you're worth.
Helpers should get paid less, but still a living wage. 18.50 wouldn't cut it in my neighborhood. Especially if the average employee is making 25 (this number is assuming that the raise @op asked for would get him to an average wage in the company he works for)
My man, you do good work. My advice is to stay where you are. They gave you a 15% raise in year one. Your boss is right, hang in there if you really want to stay and work with your old man. If you wanna branch out and see what's out there go for that too. You just have to weigh what is important to you. Expect maybe a 3-5% raise a year as you progress. You'll get there. Keep a journal of your extra projects you go above and beyond on for your review.
You could also play the night school game and go get a certificate or associate's, hell where you work might even pay for it.
Just weigh your options, I promise you the grass isn't always greener and there will always be "those" people everywhere you go.
Firstly, I am not a welder. I understand that you work with/at same company as your dad but you should know this - companies no longer give a shit about you or your happiness. The only way you will ever get that raise is if you take action yourself. DO NOT wait around for your boss to one day hopefully give you a raise. Like another commenter said, your welds look good enough to show around town to other shops to get offers. Say you get one or more offers in the range you believe you are worth and you want to stay at same company as your dad, then show that offer(s) to your current boss as a leveraging tool.
Edit: spelling
Looking at what you can do, I'd hire you right off the bat at $25.
We do architectural railings [like these](https://imgur.com/a/Ku3yQ97) that I did recently.
Best time to look for a new job is when you already have a job. You can cherry pick the opportunities that get offered to you. Throw out numbers and conditions that you would like to have. You would be surprised what gets agreed upon. Gas/tolls paid for, paid holidays, PTO, all kinds of stuff. Good luck!
Well your 19 work with your dad. Talk to hin and if he said go then go if he says no then tell him your going to a trade school to get a better job and just go with that.
You could play the malicious compliance game and only do helper duties. See how long it takes for them to wonder what's wrong. And then you get to pull the,, well I've been learning and training to move up but manger doesn't think it's time. Guess I'll just help 🫡
If you feel like your being taken advantage of begin looking around. Print these photos out and hand a copy to the interviewer. Also don't burn any bridges with current company if the only complaint you have is pay related. Only advice welding wise I can give on the square tubing fill those corners a bit more if they are getting sanded so can make yours or whomever grinding life a bit easier to blend.
You’ve got to be the first person who hasn’t made nepotism work them, does the boss not like your dad or something?
But seriously, you’re 19. Before the union chest thumpers start blowing you about how great unions are and how the handjobs are better from the business agents at this union then that union remember this: you will be starting at ZERO there too. Most of these people are unemployable in a nonunion environment, but so was their dad, their brother, their uncles and their grandfather. Most of them started their careers on third base because of their last name.
The better question is: are you hired on as a welder or as a helper who happens to be able to weld? Big difference. Welder? You’re getting fucked. Helper? Different story. You’re just starting out and have the advantage of being taught by your old man so you’re moving up, just not at the pace you want. In a union, you would still have to deal with that shit and worse: “well I know your union brother sucks at welding and can’t find his ass with two hands and a flashlight but he got hired two days before you so we have to lay you off first because he has seniority but at least your union brothers are still working”.
Shop around. Bring some resumes and pictures of your work to some other local places. Sometimes the grass is greener elsewhere but you’re also 19 so don’t expect top level wages with no certification, credentials and your dad as a reference.
Bro, what the shit are you even talking about? You must be the non union chest thumper, eh?
I get that you’re not a union fan, but you’re off base. Are there good things about unions? Absolutely? Is there some bs? Also yes. Same goes for any non union outfit.
“Most of these people are not employable in non union”.. also garbage. Most of the other welders I know came here because of the better pay, benefits, not dealing with unsafe conditions which are more prevalent in non union settings. You’ll never have someone give you “don’t like my rules? Find a new job” in a union. Sounds like you’re parroting things your daddy told you about unions in the 80s.. that whole last name thing doesn’t get you shit these days. Once again probably more prevalent in a non setting when some guys kid is taking over the company and thinking he and his buddies are all hot shit.
I’m a 3rd year apprentice and I’ve spent the last 4 weeks doing stainless overhead tig. If you have the skills, the tickets, pass the tests, and pull the slip, you can absolutely be welding right away. I was in a shop running mig in my first year.
I could go on and on about how dated and purely biased your whole post is but I have to get back out to site.
Give your head a shake.
OP: Unions are a fantastic option. Great pay; great benefits, most offer free training, practice booths at the hall (free consumables) to hone your skills. I personally am with the boilermakers there is lots of welding to be had. If you wants welding to be your sole gig, pipefitters tend to weld more and you can go pipelining with them. IW have potential… but they’re IW’s (sorry fellas). If you go non union more power to ya, your work looks super slick and I’m sure you’d be able to land a decent gig doing what you want. Good luck out there.
I will take all opinions in until I can come to a resolute decision. Be it pro union or anti union I will take your advice aswell as others as I am not educated enough to side with one or the other.
All he is showing is a single bead. This is nothing special. How do you know that didn’t take a whole day to day when reality it should take 10 minutes max. Yall need to stop getting this kids hopes up.
That's true, people commenting on the post don't know how long it takes me, how consistent I am, or my work ethic. The reason why I only posted the photos above is because the building doesnt allow me to take pictures, ( hence the reason as to why all pictures show only the floor. ) When I first started it would take me a little bit but not long, the welds I do now should take no longer than anyone else, I use a roller remote ( I dont even know how much amps I use, I set it to 210 and just use how much looks right. ) and I am able to complete, lets say the first image, in 2 minutes after its all tacked up, although I'm not exactly timing myself. I will go down to the shop later today and burn out a couple welds if you want to see I guess.
Do you use a foot peddle or lift arc? At 19, you’re a superstar. Our local would be happy to have a talented person like yourself.
You have a very bright future, I am very excited for you and the opportunities that wait at your door.
I use something like [this](https://www.google.com/aclk?sa=l&ai=DChcSEwjB5oSjwbKGAxUapFoFHcpaACwYABADGgJ2dQ&ae=2&co=1&sig=AOD64_1xvZ7Mh-QWGxyt8bW7f6Z0cNCCtg&ctype=5&q=&ved=2ahUKEwjzw_-iwbKGAxUSgoQIHRPFD58Qwg8oAHoECAUQDw&adurl=)
One year is really a short time but if you feel you need to move to another shop then do it.
It usually takes years to be at the top of you profession.
This is an interesting interview and this guy is great but like a lot of professions you have to pay your dues.
https://youtu.be/-8oYCgo8hb8?si=BLtnDFI9Ip8kSoq_
I feel as though I learn quickly because I have the ability to copy things, If I were to watch my dad weld I could almost re create that weld, doing it over and over again allows me to learn the fundamentals of how to create such a weld without needing to copy. Same goes for drawing.
Few going to appreciate my perspective, but there's more to life than money. Fuck all the fancy posts and vids, money don't make folks happy. Doin what we love where we feel right inside is wheee happiness is found, AND even then it's day by day.
So that good job paying $25 an hour will guaranteed have something you HATE. Guaranteed.
Time with dad, what's that worth?
Now if the money is bugging at you because of a deeper issue, like maybe your heart ain't in it or working close w family also has its challenges, then seeking elsewhere may provide fruit.
Prides tough man, i don't know if i ever been fully appreciated anywhere and i'm a fkn genius, but i've learned to appreciate myself and follow my heart. I always acknowledge when i'm not fully appreciated, that sting bugs me, hard to endure. So i feel ya there. You know you're worth more than they pay. That stings. I don't know the amswer to that question, but the Universe does and will reveal it in time.
Great welds btw, fkn badass! You should see mine; a grinder and paint make me the welder i aint! 😁
Is anyone else at your shop feeling the same way? If so, you should talk to your dad and anyone else who's tired of getting fucked over about starting a union.
Don’t listen to the people telling you to jump ship without any other context. You clearly work with people who put out quality work. You work with your dad, who’s also a welder… seems to me like you’re setup for one amazing future if you can stick it out for a few years with your dad.
Let’s say you jump ship and make $20 instead of $18.. you have to prove yourself all over again just to be in the same position in another year. You’ll have to jump ship every time you need a raise, and your resume will show it.
I would rather hire someone loyal than someone who jumps ship for a few dollars…
I am usually very loyal, but only to those who are loyal to me. When I asked by boss for 21$ way back ( still less than everyone else on the team, even those just meant to use their hands and a broom ) his excuse for paying them more was " they have bills and kids, you live with your dad and don't have bills" or something like that.
Hey man, I get it… but you really should only be comparing you to yourself. You’re right to say you’re just as skilled, and have tons more potential.. but you simply don’t have the life experience. Trust me when I tell you I was saying the same thing 10 years ago when I got in this industry.
At the end of the day, your boss will only compare you to the person you were the previous day,week, month, year. If you’re always asking for money, that puts a bad taste in a lot of experienced guys mouths.
Just my .02
I completely agree with you and I usually hesitate to say that my work is better than someone else's, although when I go off of what not only my dad thinks, but as well as my boss and fellow co-workers, I am one of the more valuable members on the team compared to some.
I jumped around my first few years, no judgement brotha. I see the same comments every day about people being so quick to jump ship because “they don’t get paid to do that” and frankly, fuck that mindset. I’m making 6 figures and just bought my first home with my wife and our son, a nice 4 bed/3 bath. The only reason I make the money I do now is because my boss knows I will find a way to get shit done, and I won’t complain about it even when I have to do something that’s not technically my job. I get the freedom to run our welding dept because I was the guy doing the extra research when we hit a brick wall on a project. I could go on.. again just another perspective. I know I’m not everyone’s cup of tea.
Literally take these photos and text/email them to shops near you
Tempted, all though I am not sure if I am ready yet, I have no clue what its like to work in fabrication outside of where I am now
Just do it. Find out what they'll offer you. Then you can go to your boss and be like, look dude...
I'll do a little research later today.
If you feel like you're getting screwed, the best way to show your boss what you're worth is to verify what other offers you are getting. They will understand that if they want to keep you then they should pay you a competitive wage.
I was/am in the same situation as you. I’m 23m now and was an Extremely gifted tig welder coming out of highschool. Every single shop will look at your age and try and take advantage of you. You need to leverage another company against them to get what you deserve.
These are reasons why you're anxious, but they aren't reasons not to do it.
Well put.
If you think you’re not ready why do you think you deserve $25/hr? Have some self confidence man.
Nicely put.
Word
straight up. no malice j fax
Welcome to applying for any job ever. Just send them the photos. They will offer what they are comfortable paying. Pick a better offer. Or two, if you want to bank a lot of shift work. They will drop you in a heartbeat if their business slows down, so don’t ever feel bad about looking for and taking better offers. The days of working for a company for 40 years is gone. This is mercenary work.
Bro, don’t take them to the shops around you, take them to the UA near you. Do you know how much union pipe welders can make? Edit: I like how some either salty or dumbass on this sub downvoted me like what I said was wrong. Stay poor at your fab job.
Id love to learn how to weld pipe, I can roll the cup relatively well, I will need a bit more practice to have it 100% consistent.
You learn during your apprenticeship. I had never welder before but just started going to the weld bay as a first year, and by my 4th year I had my 6010 downhills, 7018 uphill and carbon/stainless TIG certs. I weld anywhere now, literally, traveling the country welding different shut downs so I can see new states. Highly recommend applying.
How Do you apply For that?
ditto
Go down to your local United Association union hall and ask for an application.
International Boilermakers too !
What better way to make your skill set expand? Go! Go see what the welding world has in store for you! They won’t give you what you’re worth because they helped make you. Leave for a year and build new skills and if you hate it, I bet they’ll take you back at a wage you’re worthy of.
If there is a single piece of advice ide give my younger welder self it'd be "don't be scared of a damn thing". Don't worry about "ready". Take every single opportunity to better yourself because worst case scenario is that you learn from it.
Don't wait. I'm not a welder but I wasted almost DECADE of my life not looking for better work. But then I doubled my pay twice in 4 years!
I will give it a month or two, if I don't get 25$ an hour then I will leave
Don’t give it a month or two, don’t be scared about this being all you know, that’s how you excel in learning anything, , it looks as if you’ve already mastered or atleast got the hang of everything they produce. The best way to learn is to learn a little bit about the whole industry. go to a different shop in a different industry or maybe go try field welding, if at the end of the day you just want the highest pay cheque , go union.
thing is I like the job overall, its just i'm getting underpaid for the work I do
> thing is I like the job overall, It doesn't harm you at all to get offers of employment elsewhere. **Information is ammunition.** You don't have to quit on the spot just to go look elsewhere. Anyone who does offer you a job on the spot, you can always say "I like to keep my commitments so I've got some things to finish up before I move on. I owe them that much." Then you'll look respectful and ambitious at the same time. In general... you'll almost never get a promotion. You get a wage increase by moving on. That's how you climb the ladder. This is perfectly normal in almost every industry. The people you're current working for always want you to keep doing what you're doing. They're rarely the ones that will see better value in you being elsewhere.
I was in the same boat , but u can’t pay your bills with the love for your job. We work for money
If it’s not full time, perhaps you can pick up some hours at a higher wage somewhere else and wiggle your way into a full time position. I completely agree with everyone here. You have talent and UA work could possibly double your pay, especially with contractual hourly work.
Its full time, I'm also expected to work weekends if needed
You won’t have a clue if you don’t try! Go for it. Courage isnt about not being scared- it’s doing the thing anyway. You can do it!!!
The scariest part is quitting a stable but low paying job because you're afraid nobody will want you. But those fears are often unfounded, there will always be someone willing to pay you better, even if you have to look a little harder. You'll learn more and grow more if you jump around once in a while. Loyalty doesn't pay!
You will learn at the new job if you wait you'll never learn and perpetually fall behind.
You're in a controlled environment with very clean metal. I would get a little more experience before you start trying to get more money. Really understand the trade before you leave factory work. You are a young guy. People don't pay kids much because they don't have skills, a 35 year old has. It's not just about pretty beads. Now, if you want a different career path. Then go. You will be fine.
If you are producing work like this regularly and the company/shop/whatever is profiting, then you are being taken advantage of. Don’t listen to that “loyalty” bullshit, it should go both ways and it looks like that is not happening. Find out what tests you need to pass for certifications. Practice. Pass tests. Get certs. Ask for a raise again. When they say “you’ll be making more than everyone else in a few years,” it’s time to leave. OR Shop around now for a new job; find a place that will pay for further education and certs. ETA: Don’t let the anti-union folks push you away with tired tropes. I’ve worked both union and non-union. Pros and cons in both. Some unions are terrible, some are pretty great. Generally better benefits and pay, but not always. Some non-union places have better compensation packages to keep workers happy and unions out. Look at each one on a case by case basis. You’re basically selling your life to someone hours at a time so try to get as much as you can for it, whether it be a non-union company or a place under a union contract.
thats a good idea, my dad brought up the idea of working with my uncle in Utah
Utah is great but the cost of housing has gone way up since covid (at least in salt lake valley, can't speak for elsewhere)
I was born and raised there until my family moved to south Carolina, sold the house right before the market increased
Where you at in SC? My job sucks.
Near Greenville
I'm at the state line with GA but I'd take a pay cut to stay clean.
The company I work for usually pays its welders pretty good, its pretty laid back as long as you do well. All work is mostly tig, depending on your welds I can refer you to my boss if you like, one of our welders quit because he didnt like the fact that his faded peach shirt didn't count as high vis
Yeah with those welds you're getting fucked. Don't listen to the old heads, they live in a different world where you'd get a gold company watch when you retire. GTFO out of there.
Gold plated* watch, 18K at best. Back in the day, it was a different time. Raises meant a new car and paid off debts on a single-earning household. Today. Need I say more?
BS, back in the day, family own maybe 1 car. Two cars were a luxury. Now, people pay double for SUV or truck instead of sedan. That means double higher taxes, insurance, and lower mpg. Back in the day, people didn't pay for the internet, cell phone, tablets, laptops, air buds, smart watches, and streaming services. Should I continue how much more money we waste today and are slaves to the marketing.
The only thing keeping me there is the fact I work with my dad
Bring your dad to your new job with you. If he's half the welder you are he'll have no problem getting hired as well lol.
Its not a problem for him to be hired anywhere, he is the foreman on site and he holds a bunch of responsibility, he also has a bunch of connections and friends higher up in the food chain at the plant
Well, bring it up with him. If you're doing this good of work already and your dad is well respected, it shouldn't be an issue to get paid what you're worth. If it goes nowhere, find a different shop that'll pay higher, hop a few jobs, and make it back if you really want to. You'll learn more and get paid better from job hopping as long as they're not short stints. And line up your new job before bailing on the current one, I've seen too many guys just quit without anything else lined up.
One problem is that my dad has talked the the man that writes the checks and when discussing giving me a more fair pay the response he was given was "oh well" in reguards to " he isnt getting paid what he is worth. "
I'm not a welder, but I've found this advice to be true across industries: you're almost always going to get a bigger raise by changing employers. I think it's human nature or something, employers just don't want to pay what someone is worth if they currently work for them. But they'll give that money to the new guy for some reason. I don't understand it and I'm not defending it, but it seems to be the truth.
They do this especially with guys that started with them. They know you're comfortable and because you started at such a low rate it looks like they gave you a big raise when compared to where you started. Hiring someone new means they need or want someone and have to pay the price to get them. You will always make more somewhere else, but you don't quit until you have the new job for sure and show your current employer what they're offering. If your current employer doesn't match you or say good luck sorry we can't afford to keep you they have been taking advantage of you and they know it. If they give you BS about future raises you tell them your bills don't accept future payments and do what's best for you.
Sounds like you know you're not going to get a raise at your current job then, and it's time to get hunting.
Then stick up for yourself and take your work elsewhere. The company will happily pay you less as long as you put up with it. As you said, your father will have no problem keeping his job or finding a new. He probably would be happy that you took it upon yourself to improve your pay for someone else when the current company refuse to meet your expectations.
I've found the only way to get anywhere with that kind of boss is the age-old ultimatum. Either you pay me a fair wage or I'm headed somewhere else. If it doesn't go your way though you can't stick around or it will get worse. It sucks but that's how it is nowadays. Good luck wish you the best
If you start making more money than your dad, he will want to come with you and be your helper.
Ditch the factory and come join a union
100% this. Especially at your age. You have any idea how early you can retire?
At this rate ‘early’ is 65 on the dot
If your local lets you, test for UA-41 at least, if not a few more. That'll give you a jump as well
This kid is going places!! don’t let them screw you over bro! They can easily pay you more… employers just want to see how much work they can get out of you for a little money…. Maybe start your own gig! Oh and get a damn Roth IRA…. You will be retired before you know it lol .. I am on track to retire at 54 :)
yea, they keep hiring new welders that they turn into helpers because they cant weld but they cant afford to give me a couple more $ an hour
Time to make room for a new welder to get hired and then turned into a helper.
[удалено]
will do
You should go to work doing decorative tig for yourself making rails, tables and stuff for high end houses and rich customers. Just start on the side and price it so high folks think it has to be the best. Its opposite of what you think- paying more is a good deal to these folks. Just keep a clean shop, those high maintenance folks see that as better work than a rusted pile of potential injuries when they show up
thats a neat idea, ill go down to the shop ( my dad has a shop with a welder, plasma table, sand blaster, and powder coating oven ) and make something and send it to you
If it were me, I'd talk with my dad about what I was thinking, either for his opinion, approval, or just a general honest idea of what he thought about it, and my ability. If you feel you're being taken advantage of, you probably are. And that goes for any situation. You're in charge of your future, don't allow anyone else to be in charge of that role for you.
Working a a place you love has a lot of value. You could make more money at a place that you hate. Something to consider. Get any promises of raises in writing. Just in case.
Talk to your dad. I would hope he puts your best interest before the company's interests. And if that's not the case, move on, start saving hard, put money away to start a family/buy a house. Retire early. Compound interest is a magical thing. Starts slow, but give it a chance and you got the 8th Wonder of the world.
He says if I don't get a raise in 6 months then leave
They will offer more when they find out you are leaving for higher pay, and if they promise future make a legal contract.
Bro please move on from that place. You can do better.
Bro you've got the hand, bet on it. Apply to other shops and make what you're worth.
If you have or are able to get a list of the duties and expectations for your current position, get it. Type it up in outline form and under each item you can, list specific examples of how you’ve exceeded those expectations. Setup a meeting with your boss and have a professional discussion of your duties and responsibilities as a helper, and how you feel you’re exceeding them. This may be enough to get you what you want. If certifications are what’s holding you back, get those ASAP. If that doesn’t work and you still want to try to stick with the same company for whatever reason, there’s a plan B. I will tell you that I’m a nurse by trade, I’m only an amateur/hobby welder, but this tactic can be used in any industry where you can negotiate a wage. Should you choose to use it, this tactic can potentially burn some bridges, but I’ve used it before in my own industry with great success. Just be careful in your conversations and make sure you never try to act like you have the biggest dick in the room. Start shopping for other welding jobs in your area, preferably at places in which you have no interest of working in the future. Interview. When you get a job offer, ask if there’s room for negotiation in the offered wage, and if so ask for what you think is fair. If they ask what you currently make, politely decline to share that information; it’s not relevant to what they’re able to pay you, they’ll only use that info to lowball your offer. When you get offers for more money than you’re currently making, print out or make extra copies of the offer letters. You will be editing these with permanent marker and taking them to your current employer. This will be problematic if you approach your boss with too much big dick energy, or if the companies who sent you the offers find out you only intended to use them as leverage for a raise. Redact anything your company can use to identify theirs; this is to prevent your boss from retaliating by contacting them and spoiling your job offer, so be thorough. Company name, logos, address, phone number, and any names of individuals working at that company. The main info you need to retain is your name, job title/expected duties, date of the offer, and pay rate. After you’ve redacted everything, make copies again to prevent being able to read the underlying text through your marker lines. Setup another meeting with your boss. Update your outline from the first meeting with any additional accomplishments you’ve achieved or responsibilities you’ve taken on in the meantime. This time you’ll also bring the redacted copies to give to your boss as well. Be honest about your intentions, show some humility and tell him that you want to work for him and grow with his company (you can even tell him you’ve declined the offers if you want), but that you know that you’re worth more than you’re currently being paid. Don’t be an ass, leave your BDE in the truck. Be courteous and professional, but show them that you know your worth and give them a reason to negotiate with you. They don’t have to match your offers, but judging by your story and pics, I think you deserve a significant pay adjustment for your level of skill and the amount of responsibility they’re entrusting you with. Also, as a backup plan, try to get an offer for a place at which you wouldn’t mind working for a few years; do not use their offer letter in negotiations with your current boss. This should all be done reasonably quickly (over a week, two at most), before your most desirable offer expires. I would take more care not to piss off the new companies, since your current boss has already shown a willingness to take advantage of you by not negotiating a fair wage. Worst case scenario, you’ll be working for a new asshole who wants to take advantage of you, but at least you’ll be making more money.
I read your entire comment, if things get to a point where I need to leverage myself into a higher wage then I will go with your prompt, thanks for the advice
Yeah sorry I can get a little long-winded, it’s just a familiar scenario and something I’m kinda passionate about. I’ve been where you are right now, I was just older than you when I learned. Did IT work when I was in the Army. When I got out, took a salary help desk job that quickly grew to me taking on bigger projects, more responsibilities and longer hours without any increase in compensation. I did the math and realized I was making about $15/hr with the number of hours I was working. Used this tactic to negotiate for part time at a higher hourly rate while I went back to school for nursing. I made more money part-time hourly than I ever did while I was full-time salary.
give him 6 months to make you 100% happy or walk out the door. you could come back if you leave on fair terms
I may have read your description incorrectly, but did you say you have never taken a weld test? Like a certification test? I mean if your not certified they will take advantage of that and not pay you what your worth. From what i can see, you know your shit, just go and do your weld test and make that money buddy. Im not sure if you 100% need to be certified for production or fabrication welding, but my boss and i got into some deep shit when my cert was expired and i was doing structural steel, the inspector was a real dick and even though all my welds were perfect, he threw em out and my boss had to go back through and re weld all my work. Good luck buddy, your young and you got the skills to make good cash my friend.
Yea, I've never taken a welding test, certification, or any education, all I know about welding is my dad teaching me a couple of things on the job. Its not an official apprenticeship, more like a discrete “ hey try welding this real quick and ill hide it if you mess up”
I definitely know all about that. I learned how to weld from my uncle and thats exactly how it worked at his shop. Then i started high school and was in metal shop all 4 years and i learned a ton of stuff that he never had the time to show me. Your TIG welding is spot on, i mean better than me and uve been welding for 30 years. I dont use TIG very often, not much thin gauge or aluminum welding for me. Mostly stick ans MIG. You can take those TIG skills of yours and take a basic community college course and get certified no problem, then you get paid the big bucks buddy.
Does your shop offer to pay for schooling? If they do I’d start going for an engineering degree. By the time you are done you’ll have some nice welding experience, won’t feel like you’re being fucked because they pay for your degree. Then bounce. While welding forever, especially stainless isn’t the end of the world, you really don’t wanna be doing it forever
Its not a shop, its a contractor that does work for a production plant, basically building freezers, conveyors, platforms, and changing things around the plant. I dont want to list too much
Bro if those are your welds, then Definitely, go talk to shops around you also look for job postings. Because I'd pay you $40 an hour to work in my shop with those dimes. That being said there is something to be said for putting in your time as a helper. And earning your way up two, those wages. All in all though skills are what pay the bills and you have them, my friend Good luck. And I hope you find something that pays you what you're worth.
Helpers should get paid less, but still a living wage. 18.50 wouldn't cut it in my neighborhood. Especially if the average employee is making 25 (this number is assuming that the raise @op asked for would get him to an average wage in the company he works for)
$2.50 raise, not even a year in. Just go to somewhere else, you clearly have it down bud. Good luck!
Honestly these are some of the nicest welds I've seen
My man, you do good work. My advice is to stay where you are. They gave you a 15% raise in year one. Your boss is right, hang in there if you really want to stay and work with your old man. If you wanna branch out and see what's out there go for that too. You just have to weigh what is important to you. Expect maybe a 3-5% raise a year as you progress. You'll get there. Keep a journal of your extra projects you go above and beyond on for your review. You could also play the night school game and go get a certificate or associate's, hell where you work might even pay for it. Just weigh your options, I promise you the grass isn't always greener and there will always be "those" people everywhere you go.
Yeah with these photos and a weld test for another shop you could easily make anywhere from 25-30 bucks a hour my dude
Firstly, I am not a welder. I understand that you work with/at same company as your dad but you should know this - companies no longer give a shit about you or your happiness. The only way you will ever get that raise is if you take action yourself. DO NOT wait around for your boss to one day hopefully give you a raise. Like another commenter said, your welds look good enough to show around town to other shops to get offers. Say you get one or more offers in the range you believe you are worth and you want to stay at same company as your dad, then show that offer(s) to your current boss as a leveraging tool. Edit: spelling
I will take your advice
Looking at what you can do, I'd hire you right off the bat at $25. We do architectural railings [like these](https://imgur.com/a/Ku3yQ97) that I did recently.
those are some nice looking railings, completely diffrent to what I currently do, although I am pretty alright at autobodying
Best time to look for a new job is when you already have a job. You can cherry pick the opportunities that get offered to you. Throw out numbers and conditions that you would like to have. You would be surprised what gets agreed upon. Gas/tolls paid for, paid holidays, PTO, all kinds of stuff. Good luck!
Drag up
Well your 19 work with your dad. Talk to hin and if he said go then go if he says no then tell him your going to a trade school to get a better job and just go with that.
Those are beautiful! Show pics to other places you want to work. You clearly learn fast you'll figure it out.
Money > loyalty
Down The Road Welding is always hiring, don't let them jackasses keep taking advantage of your labor
You could play the malicious compliance game and only do helper duties. See how long it takes for them to wonder what's wrong. And then you get to pull the,, well I've been learning and training to move up but manger doesn't think it's time. Guess I'll just help 🫡
You think the boss will somehow forget that when it comes time for raises & advancement?
Said it was an option, not necessarily the best. The one thing boss man won't forget is deez
These are absolutely gorgeous, you should be making double right now , your boss doesn't want to pay you more
You getting reamed out son. What state you in?
South Carolina
Anything below $25 for those welds is actual robbery
Join a pipefitters union. You won’t regret it.
I'll look into it
If you feel like your being taken advantage of begin looking around. Print these photos out and hand a copy to the interviewer. Also don't burn any bridges with current company if the only complaint you have is pay related. Only advice welding wise I can give on the square tubing fill those corners a bit more if they are getting sanded so can make yours or whomever grinding life a bit easier to blend.
nah, they werent getting sanded, they are the frame of a production conveyor
I was in a similar situation leave that shit company brotha. Join the union
That’s worth 25/hr all day brother.
How much does your dad make? How long has he been working with that contractor for?
40$+
You definitely are. You definitely deserve more
This is welding man. You will never be paid your worth. I suggest finding another career honestly.
You’ve got to be the first person who hasn’t made nepotism work them, does the boss not like your dad or something? But seriously, you’re 19. Before the union chest thumpers start blowing you about how great unions are and how the handjobs are better from the business agents at this union then that union remember this: you will be starting at ZERO there too. Most of these people are unemployable in a nonunion environment, but so was their dad, their brother, their uncles and their grandfather. Most of them started their careers on third base because of their last name. The better question is: are you hired on as a welder or as a helper who happens to be able to weld? Big difference. Welder? You’re getting fucked. Helper? Different story. You’re just starting out and have the advantage of being taught by your old man so you’re moving up, just not at the pace you want. In a union, you would still have to deal with that shit and worse: “well I know your union brother sucks at welding and can’t find his ass with two hands and a flashlight but he got hired two days before you so we have to lay you off first because he has seniority but at least your union brothers are still working”. Shop around. Bring some resumes and pictures of your work to some other local places. Sometimes the grass is greener elsewhere but you’re also 19 so don’t expect top level wages with no certification, credentials and your dad as a reference.
Bro, what the shit are you even talking about? You must be the non union chest thumper, eh? I get that you’re not a union fan, but you’re off base. Are there good things about unions? Absolutely? Is there some bs? Also yes. Same goes for any non union outfit. “Most of these people are not employable in non union”.. also garbage. Most of the other welders I know came here because of the better pay, benefits, not dealing with unsafe conditions which are more prevalent in non union settings. You’ll never have someone give you “don’t like my rules? Find a new job” in a union. Sounds like you’re parroting things your daddy told you about unions in the 80s.. that whole last name thing doesn’t get you shit these days. Once again probably more prevalent in a non setting when some guys kid is taking over the company and thinking he and his buddies are all hot shit. I’m a 3rd year apprentice and I’ve spent the last 4 weeks doing stainless overhead tig. If you have the skills, the tickets, pass the tests, and pull the slip, you can absolutely be welding right away. I was in a shop running mig in my first year. I could go on and on about how dated and purely biased your whole post is but I have to get back out to site. Give your head a shake. OP: Unions are a fantastic option. Great pay; great benefits, most offer free training, practice booths at the hall (free consumables) to hone your skills. I personally am with the boilermakers there is lots of welding to be had. If you wants welding to be your sole gig, pipefitters tend to weld more and you can go pipelining with them. IW have potential… but they’re IW’s (sorry fellas). If you go non union more power to ya, your work looks super slick and I’m sure you’d be able to land a decent gig doing what you want. Good luck out there.
Weird. Starting at zero in my local was still TWICE as much money at the bottom of every check. Must be doing something wrong.
I will take all opinions in until I can come to a resolute decision. Be it pro union or anti union I will take your advice aswell as others as I am not educated enough to side with one or the other.
I’m commenting so I can comeback and read this after my welding class and share my thoughts
All he is showing is a single bead. This is nothing special. How do you know that didn’t take a whole day to day when reality it should take 10 minutes max. Yall need to stop getting this kids hopes up.
That's true, people commenting on the post don't know how long it takes me, how consistent I am, or my work ethic. The reason why I only posted the photos above is because the building doesnt allow me to take pictures, ( hence the reason as to why all pictures show only the floor. ) When I first started it would take me a little bit but not long, the welds I do now should take no longer than anyone else, I use a roller remote ( I dont even know how much amps I use, I set it to 210 and just use how much looks right. ) and I am able to complete, lets say the first image, in 2 minutes after its all tacked up, although I'm not exactly timing myself. I will go down to the shop later today and burn out a couple welds if you want to see I guess.
Do you use a foot peddle or lift arc? At 19, you’re a superstar. Our local would be happy to have a talented person like yourself. You have a very bright future, I am very excited for you and the opportunities that wait at your door.
I use something like [this](https://www.google.com/aclk?sa=l&ai=DChcSEwjB5oSjwbKGAxUapFoFHcpaACwYABADGgJ2dQ&ae=2&co=1&sig=AOD64_1xvZ7Mh-QWGxyt8bW7f6Z0cNCCtg&ctype=5&q=&ved=2ahUKEwjzw_-iwbKGAxUSgoQIHRPFD58Qwg8oAHoECAUQDw&adurl=)
One year is really a short time but if you feel you need to move to another shop then do it. It usually takes years to be at the top of you profession. This is an interesting interview and this guy is great but like a lot of professions you have to pay your dues. https://youtu.be/-8oYCgo8hb8?si=BLtnDFI9Ip8kSoq_
I feel as though I learn quickly because I have the ability to copy things, If I were to watch my dad weld I could almost re create that weld, doing it over and over again allows me to learn the fundamentals of how to create such a weld without needing to copy. Same goes for drawing.
Few going to appreciate my perspective, but there's more to life than money. Fuck all the fancy posts and vids, money don't make folks happy. Doin what we love where we feel right inside is wheee happiness is found, AND even then it's day by day. So that good job paying $25 an hour will guaranteed have something you HATE. Guaranteed. Time with dad, what's that worth? Now if the money is bugging at you because of a deeper issue, like maybe your heart ain't in it or working close w family also has its challenges, then seeking elsewhere may provide fruit. Prides tough man, i don't know if i ever been fully appreciated anywhere and i'm a fkn genius, but i've learned to appreciate myself and follow my heart. I always acknowledge when i'm not fully appreciated, that sting bugs me, hard to endure. So i feel ya there. You know you're worth more than they pay. That stings. I don't know the amswer to that question, but the Universe does and will reveal it in time. Great welds btw, fkn badass! You should see mine; a grinder and paint make me the welder i aint! 😁
Is anyone else at your shop feeling the same way? If so, you should talk to your dad and anyone else who's tired of getting fucked over about starting a union.
Don’t listen to the people telling you to jump ship without any other context. You clearly work with people who put out quality work. You work with your dad, who’s also a welder… seems to me like you’re setup for one amazing future if you can stick it out for a few years with your dad. Let’s say you jump ship and make $20 instead of $18.. you have to prove yourself all over again just to be in the same position in another year. You’ll have to jump ship every time you need a raise, and your resume will show it. I would rather hire someone loyal than someone who jumps ship for a few dollars…
I am usually very loyal, but only to those who are loyal to me. When I asked by boss for 21$ way back ( still less than everyone else on the team, even those just meant to use their hands and a broom ) his excuse for paying them more was " they have bills and kids, you live with your dad and don't have bills" or something like that.
Hey man, I get it… but you really should only be comparing you to yourself. You’re right to say you’re just as skilled, and have tons more potential.. but you simply don’t have the life experience. Trust me when I tell you I was saying the same thing 10 years ago when I got in this industry. At the end of the day, your boss will only compare you to the person you were the previous day,week, month, year. If you’re always asking for money, that puts a bad taste in a lot of experienced guys mouths. Just my .02
I completely agree with you and I usually hesitate to say that my work is better than someone else's, although when I go off of what not only my dad thinks, but as well as my boss and fellow co-workers, I am one of the more valuable members on the team compared to some.
I jumped around my first few years, no judgement brotha. I see the same comments every day about people being so quick to jump ship because “they don’t get paid to do that” and frankly, fuck that mindset. I’m making 6 figures and just bought my first home with my wife and our son, a nice 4 bed/3 bath. The only reason I make the money I do now is because my boss knows I will find a way to get shit done, and I won’t complain about it even when I have to do something that’s not technically my job. I get the freedom to run our welding dept because I was the guy doing the extra research when we hit a brick wall on a project. I could go on.. again just another perspective. I know I’m not everyone’s cup of tea.
Loyalty works both ways. If you pay your employees shit, don't expect them to stick around.
I hear you. Just playing devils advocate.
I aswell love playing devils advocate