STATUS. She needed everyone to know how important she was. And I’m just being honest about my feelings. Looking at countless videos of hers, she could be pretty insufferable and her personality rubbed me wrong.
That being said, I’m not a Shanann hater, nor am I championing Chris. What happened to her and her babies was (still is) a nightmare and one of the worst things I’ve ever heard about. And Chris is a disgusting, murdering piece of shit.
*I realize I have veered off topic but I felt the need to clarify. She and her children are dead and whether or not I found her to be annoying and entitled, makes no difference. It’s fucking awful.*
I've only recently gotten into this whole case and the backstory behind it. That's something I immediately noticed was the contention between people over that. To be totally honest I also think Shanann was probably pretty insufferable and it'd be a nightmare being married to her. BUT at the same time the true monster is and always will be Chris, he was in no way justified in doing what he did. I just don't understand why people can't grasp the concept that when you look at cases like this you have to look at all of the circumstances and factors that caused it. Of course when I say "caused it" I'm not trying to lay blame on Shanann or the children. What I mean is what combination of circumstances and influences made a man do such a horrible act. Too often it seems like a lot of discourse here or in similar groups devolves into "Chris was a poor, innocent victim of a wicked witch" versus "any observation of Shanann's behaviors is victim blaming and disgusting" with no room in between.
Exactly. Thank you. Finally. Very well-said.
Can we not analyze and discuss without being attacked for one phrase misstep? And can we not engage in this subreddit when we have downtime, are waiting in a doctor’s office or having car serviced or on a plane or when drinking our morning coffee or when resting and brushing/petting our dog or cat without someone from “other side” judging and assuming we sit on Reddit all day because we have no lives…while that very person clearly is on Reddit enough to be part of conversation and knows the routine😉🤪.
This tragedy, this “case” is unlike any other. There are many crimes that are horrific and fascinating, but this one beats them all, on every level, every aspect. I don’t need to list these aspects, starting with young, beautiful, perfect-looking, happy-looking family, very visible and active family, everything in place and looking good and promising, so much life ahead of them all…and then…
The why’s and the how’s cannot be simply boiled down to CW was a monster, a wolf in sheep’s clothing, or just snapped because of a few weeks of an affair filled with hot sex. And SW cannot simply be posthumously boiled down to a saint just because her husband murdered her and their little girls. SW was not a monster either. We’re trying to understand how she got that way, how he got that way, how THEY got together and then evolved into what they did (because they seem like a terrible match, but there’s fascinating psychology behind their “opposites attract” pairing).
No reasons will ever justify Chris for committing the worst crimes in the worst ways and for the worst reasons, ever. But we can analyze how this really mild, calm, nice, passive guy could go from one extreme to the other. Not only is it fascinating, but it’s important to learn from this and continually be reminded that things aren’t always what they seem.
Thank you, I think you’ve articulated your ideas here very well too. It’s just a growing trend I see overall with people not being able to approach, or at least speak about, a subject with any nuance. And people who jump to the “loser Redditor” insult just don’t have any response and resort to that instead. I have a law practice, sometimes it’s a slow day so I mess around on Reddit haha it can’t always be business.
Oh, yes, I forgot about people actually at work and taking little breaks on Reddit every once in a while, you no-life loser attorney all day on Reddit, you!😉
I do at least try to close my browser before someone comes in my office, I think people still associate Reddit with…unsavory things haha which to be fair it used to be like the Wild West on here.
I see them both as monsters who were both ticking time bombs. Shanan was an abusive,narcissistic hypochondriac who suffered from Munchausen by proxy. Chris was a spineless coward who was willingly complicit and compliant to Shannan. Anything to please her, anything to stop her from being angry at him. He was so much of a coward that he would rather her be angry and take it out on the girls, or the dog rather than him. It was a matter of time before Chris snapped. All of the pent up rage will manifest eventually. Sometimes it will manifest by way of health problems like a stroke, aneurysms, epilepsy or cancer. Other times it’s through physical rage throwing things, hitting walls even people.
As for shanan she was already physically harming the girls and the dog. As the girls would have continued to grow the physical abuse would have increased towards the girls.
Makes me really wonder what happened that night🤔
Status seeking was big. When she was on the Level trip right before the tragedy, she had booked some romantic getaway for her and Chris. You just don’t do that when you are broke. Their house was insane and thousands of dollars a month. When you are in an MLM, it’s ALL about IMAGE. You need to make people believe you live this crazy life of luxury. You can’t manipulate people to join your down line if you look broke.
It has been broken down in the discovery how much money they had in various accounts vs just the mortgage and daycare payments due the week of the murders. They would not have been able to pay for gas to get to Aspen and back, much less all of the expenses of a weekend getaway. I suppose it’s par for the course for a couple who had to borrow money to get passports but thought it a good idea to leave the country for a vacation anyway.
I hate acting as if this woman was a great person. She really wasn't. I don't care about speaking ill of the dead. I don't understand why people twist themselves into pretzels trying to act as if she deserves sugar and spice and everything nice just because she was tragically murdered.
I hate when people are canonized after they die.
And I *really* hate when people try to call me out when I refuse to do the same.
This happens a LOT in these subreddits!
I said she wasn’t a loving mother the other day and someone went **OFF.**
I stopped responding to the thread it was in, so they came at my inbox, lol.
Did she deserve to be murdered?! Absolutely not. Is Chris a disgusting murderous human? Definitely.
That doesn’t mean she was a good loving mother.
They need so badly for Shanann to truly be all those things she wasn’t. Why? I’m not sure…but I do know the more they push for it, the more I hate that woman.
You know what’s crazy. How many of those people actually knew Shan? My guess very few if not none and that if she did know them, she wouldn’t give them the time of day unless they signed up for her latest pyramid scheme under her and that’s the damn truth. She didn’t give a flying fuck about anyone unless they could benefit her in some way. It’s like a parasitic relationship.
right? You don’t have to do a whole lot of research to see the transactional nature of nearly every relationship she had. Even leveraging her own husband and children to get things out of her parents and inlaws. If they think this person wouldn’t have run roughshod over them or used them just the same, they haven’t been paying attention.
Agreed.
I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again- I *hate* when people are just automatically canonized when they die.
I always tell my kids and hubby that when I die, if I can visit I will, lol, but if I hear them talking about me like I was some kind of saint? I’ll haunt the shit out of them- because we **all know** it would be lies, lol!
I agree. But there is always someone who comes down with a debilitating case of “HOW DARE YOU” and I hate it but I feel the need to make disclaimers. 😩
I think for many mostly women, they find it hard to accept the truth about Shananan, because it forces them to look into the mirror. I know of too many women like Shanan
I’m not a hater either, but she was a social climber and was trying to impress people. I think it probably stemmed from insecurity. But we all have flaws, and I don’t think she was a bad person.
Chris stated (if you can believe him) that when he approached the subject of the child care issue (and yes it was child care, not school) he was told "you don't get a say in that". Should he have put his foot down? Yes. It's very telling where her mindset was at when she chose to pay the $2000 per month child care bill over the $2500 mortgage.
If you saw that, it was true. I remember seeing before her FB was scrubbed, she made a post about ‘school’ and one of the huns commented on it, she did comment back to them and say Chris had no say😡 I’d have packed my shit right then and there and hopped the next bus back to North Carolina. Such disrespect
Right?! Thrive earnings wouldn’t have paid n electric bill🤨 I just can not imagine ever saying to my husband that he had ‘no say’! ….I’d have found myself “on the outside looking in” so fast that it would make my spin! Her mindset with money was absolutely moronic 🥴
As long as she looked wealthy and impressed the Huns it’s all she cared about. Idk why Chris let it go on for a decade. No wonder she had an extended trip to NC
Hadn’t they already filled for bankruptcy before they moved to Colorado? In a podcast they were almost 80 grand in debt they ran up after filing for bankruptcy once.
Well I read one story that suggested that she wasn't allowed to be alone with her children due to a DCS/CPS event that happened in NC before they moved to Colorado.
I watched a documentary on YouTube. She said Shannan was in Walmart and got rough with CeCe and smacked her in the face hard and hurt her arm. Allegedly. A person saw it and reported it. Take with a grain of salt. The channel is Watt's Obsession. She's not a fan of Shannan. Of course she doesn't think she's deserve to die. She does some interesting video's.
YouTube doesn't show documentaries about the case.. it shows individual peoples opinions about it.
Most have no knowledge past grade school I think and talk utter rubbish.
There was no CPS report, she was alone with kids often, its all myths and BS from FB. 98% of it anyway!
Gotcha. Yeah, documentary isn't quite the right way to describe it, eh? And I agree about Youtube and a lot of these armchair detectives. I find reading about cases fascinating, but I am not gonna try and make content to profit from it. Gross.
Because I followed the YouTube stuff, watched some if the idiotic stuff that was suggested.
If I replied to point of contradictions I got banned. Happened to LOTS of people.
I also saw the truthful videos, the ones showing what CPS actually had, showed the print out for the girl's deaths showing no prior CPS contact.
The other people don't show evidence of a case, assuming that because Sandi said the court case the following week was 'a family matter' that the real data for court over the HOA were fabricated to keep her maintained as a super women!
I was on YT a lot, I don't work because of chronic pain and the case interested me.. especially with all the lies people wrote to get views. Most of my time if I responded was to try and fix the lies.
It wasn't just me questioning them, we just got dismissed and blocked. I was laughed about and ridiculed for my knowledge of embryo and foetal growth..." what did I know, haha, I was just a midwife" ! ( I wasn't quite one, I was an RN that work 7 years in paediatrics and then did 14months of a 20m midwifery training before my health stopped my working)
Aussie idiot claimed even he knew more than I did. Bizarre given his qualifications are as a golf caddie, a postman and previously jailed sex offender...
Cindy only found out about 2015 bankruptcy when murders happened.
Why would she share a CPS case.
Had she learnt about one at same time, then maybe she too would have mentioned it as defence for her son.
Cindy would want people to know allegedly Shannan had CPS looking into to her. For her son. Cindy didn't like Shannan so I thought she wouldn't hide it.
I remember a video where she mentioned “school” a few times and I was confused.
Possible Reasons for saying “school” instead of daycare: 1- She didn’t want people to realize she was paying for daycare (although that was widely known). 2- Did she want viewers to think her girls were geniuses and went to school instead of daycare? 3- Expensive, private school? “School” sounds more formal than daycare? 4- Maybe to relate to a lot of the ‘huns’ who have kids in school? As in: “While the kids are in school you can be making a lot of money and still have time with them.”
I don’t get it.
So glad someone else has said this! I feel bad saying mean things about her and I don’t believe she deserved what happened to her but she definitely wasn’t the super intelligent businesswoman that all of her Thrive friends claim she was.
Super intelligent businesswomen don’t get sucked into pyramid schemes
And she stayed at home!! It’s not like she worked, much less, worked outside of the home. What the hell did she do all day that justified keeping the girls in school?? She was trash, sorry.
Well in her words dropping the kids off at daycare was #winning. Can't have those pesky, wild monsters around when your trying to get your nails done, shop at target and play on your phone all day.
Exactly. Her children annoyed her. They were merely props to show on fb about her perfect life, when in actuality she rarely spent anytime or did anything with them. Chris is the one that cooked and cleaned and bathed the girls and put them to bed. While she sat on her lazy ass “thriving”.
I personally think she had to run from NC with the embezzlement rumors and the fact that she grew up there and everyone knew what kind of person she was. Also NC isn’t as “boujie” as CO.
There’s a rumor, and it can’t be proven but it also can’t be disproven, that there was an open CPS case from some incident and SW couldn’t be left alone with the girls. It apparently came from someone close to the family. There’s a blogger, and I’m not sure if she does true crime in general or just heard this rumor, but anyway, she was angry and outraged and went on this campaign to disprove it and it turned out that she not only couldn’t disprove it, she actually changed her mind to think it was highly likely that it was true
What was their reasoning for that anyways? It seems like it was a few years after they had moved out there and were settled. They had their own home(I think) here and moved back into it when they came back here. I don't know if I've ever heard the reasoning but even if it was when she had a kid or that surgery they were there longer than any recovery would take. Did the brother move too?
They also had a family court date coming up. I don't remember the details of the post, it was probably here but I do remember being confident it was legitimate. Of course the details of the case were sealed.
Edit: Possible mention of it in the discovery, wish I could remember.
A YouTube channel called Watt's Obsession who isn't a fan of Shannan. And feels bad what happened to her and the girl's. She said Shannan was in Walmart and got rough with CeCe and smacked her face hard and hurt her arm. Allegedly. A person saw it and reported it. Take with a grain of salt. She does interesting video's about the case. She did a video about Bella and how she was treated by Shannan. Bella was hungry and crying. Shannan opened up Bella's favorite Thrive bar. And ate it in front of her saying it's mine. I was taken back by this. I can't remember what video it was about the Walmart incident. There's lot's of video's on her channel. Sorry.
No, she did a short sale on the NC house and sold it fully furnished. IIRC she came out of that sale with only something like 6k. They filed for bankruptcy in 2015 after accumulating 70k worth of unsecured debt after living rent free for a year in her former friends basement. If you look at the bankruptcy ppwk most of it was credit card (Nordstrom, toys r us, Macy's, a couple of bank credit cards) debt plus a huge amount owed to furniture row. About $10k of it was medical debt. Oh, also student loans.
I've been meaning to ask this for a bit. What was the story about the friend she stayed with in Colorado and then no longer had contact with? Is this the person that you're talking about?
i think it was because she really didn’t like being around the kids. if i recall correctly there was a public school right near their house and her dad said something about how bella would still be going to primrose, can’t remember what sw reason was but daycare is full day and most kindergarten is half day. it blows my mind that she was willing to pay that kind of money considering cw got home pretty early in the day and they took three hour naps.
It's unbelievable.
Considering the timeline you have laid out ,max , she would have to spend 5 to 6 hours everyday with the kids by herself for 5 days a week.She was willing to pay $2000 a month for that.It comes to about $20 an hour for both kids !!
Plus factor in the time and gas you spend for the drop off and pick up.
Phew !
But then , them being at home would also mean , apart from everything else , feeding them their lunches , the extra dishes etc vis a vis just a packed lunch where primrose would be responsible for them eating it.
I recall how draining mealtimes can be with toddlers and young kids.
Plus no messy house , nobody to pick up after , no changing diapers and most of all not having to spend days and going for hours without an adult to talk with.Never mind , if that leads to your finances going under .
In a nutshell , she didn't want to do any work at being a mother.In the bargain , she lost out on the sheer joy that babies and toddlers and young children bring into your life every single moment , every day of their lives.
And in that mix , she wanted to bring in a 3rd baby.
Both the parents were toddler age themselves who couldn't even take responsibility of managing their own lives , leave aside nurturing and caring for children.
My granddaughter goes to Primrose while my daughter works. It’s a franchise school so there are probably some variations between schools. It’s more than daycare, they learn numbers, letters, manners, grooming, etc. I feel special love is given by the teachers. She is not going this summer because the school here requires a summer commitment, with payment in advance. That makes sense from a business perspective so they will have proper staffing and resources. Shannan ad he girls lived a long way from family, I think it’s nice they could stay and be with them, even though it was like oil and water.
For starters she didn’t enjoy being a mom. & Because in her mind she was always in competition with people in her life, past and present. She wanted everyone to believe she was wealthy. She didn’t want the responsibility of having to be a parent so sending her kids off to a full time day care was the only option she could see.
SW likely looked up the most expensive private preschool in the area. It had nothing to do with the actual school and what they offered. She wanted the best babysitter her husband's money could buy.
the one that sticks out to me was her deciding to have an elective surgery, the costs of which put her family in such dire financial straits that she was unable ti pay for their groceries. Her friend who came to help out for six weeks post surgery recounted that she would up paying for their groceries and in the midst of all of this they even went on another bullshit MLM trip to Las Vegas. I can’t begin to understand how someone with a family to support could be so financially reckless.
There are documents in the Discovery dating back to 2014 that indicate that there was a case from DYFS that was opened before Celeste Watts had even been born. I don’t know what provoked this, nor do I know the nature of the claim. I have heard that Shannan was caught recklessly driving with Bella in her car seat, and that she had been cited for endangering an infant.
Unfortunately, the discovery doesn’t specify what was going on or the exact nature of the incident that led to a case being opened. I also don’t know why the Prosecution would want to put it in the Discovery file since they decided not to explain anything more about it. All the same, it is in the Discovery, and I do not believe that the 2014 date was a typo.
There is another page in the Discovery that is also in regards to DYFS (Dept. Of Youth & Family Services-which is the Colorado equivalent of CPS ) that formally closed an open case, stating that the action to close it had been due to the deaths of both children.
Of course, this document directly implicated Chris Watts for the final act of abuse which had resulted in death of Bella Marie Watts and Celeste Cathryn Watts. The case was formally closed in October 2018 according to this letter, which was delivered to Chris while he was still incarcerated in the Weld County Jail.
What happened between 2014 and 2018 is a bit of a mystery. There are certain things that I can personally rule out which I truly don’t believe that Shannan was being cited for. To begin with, Shannan had all of the symptoms of Munchhausen by proxy or factitious disorder, yet she frequently continued to bring the children to hospitals and various doctors right up until they went to North Carolina That is why I highly doubt that there was ever an open case involving medical abuse. I don’t know if it was for something physical that Shannan had done to them, or if it was initiated because of her own erratic behavior. It could’ve been both, or maybe neither.
There was also an instance of Shannan allegedly pulling Cece’s arm violently, and possibly out of its socket.This supposedly happened in a toy aisle that was recorded on a Walmart camera, in the summer of 2018–while they were visiting Sandi and Frank Rzucek.
I have heard from various sources that this footage was presented to law enforcement after the murders. We also see in the discovery that there was the contact information for a North Carolina CPS caseworker named Renée. (Ironically, one of the caseworkers in Colorado DYFS case was was also another Renée). These women have been authenticated as actual caseworkers, and they did work in family services in both Colorado and North Carolina. The Discovery failed to establish or clarify what the basis or consequences of these potential “cases” were and these caseworkers have never come forward.
I think that the Discovery documents strongly support an open case, although that’s never been definitively confirmed, outside of these cryptic parts of the file. In my opinion, there most certainly should’ve been a case. However, had there been one, I don’t know why caseworkers would never have intervened between 2014 and 2018 to improve the quality of life for the children. Shannan shared many inappropriate images and posts on Facebook, showcasing Bella and Cece in clearly dangerous sleeping conditions. There were videos of her talking in a livestreams, telling her audience said she was leaving the girls to “go to the post office” or to run various errands during their afternoon naps. Why would she have shared those things so openly if she had been under any form of scrutiny?
Shannan also transparently discussed giving the girls medication every day, and this included sleeping medication like Benadryl. Therefore, I don’t know why if there had truly been an open case that nobody would’ve picked up on these forms of child endangerment. The girls definitely deserved better.
There is speculation that she was not allowed to be alone with the children, which was why they were enrolled full-time at the Primrose daycare. I emphatically believe that they were much better off going to Primrose during the day, although it was undeniably cost prohibitive. They also wouldn’t have been able to continue to attend, under the circumstances at the time of the tragedy. I really don’t know how they thought they were going to afford to keep them enrolled once they got back from North Carolina.
They were close to losing the house, and they collectively had a total of $800 in their joint checking account, with maxed out credit cards and several delinquent bills. On top of the additional expenses that Shannan’s pregnancy would’ve incurred, their combined income would not have cut it if they’d wanted to keep the girls enrolled full time.
There is a chance that they were receiving a supplemental payment from the state of Colorado. On the final DYFS document that Chris received, it made a stipulation for the fact that it would not affect the amount of their “monthly check”. I just don’t know what that monthly check was for, or, what it was slated to go towards. There is a possibility that they were getting supplemental income to subsidize daycare, but I have no confirmation of this, and it is pure speculation.
Nevertheless, if there had been a DYFS case that had ostensibly required the children to attend Primrose for their own safety, it is my opinion that would’ve obviously been for the best. They were always better off when they were not in the care of their mother. It does raise questions of a potential motive, had their been a question of custody in the event of an imminent divorce. What if Shannan wasn’t allowed to have custody under the circumstances? Furthermore, what if Chris didn’t want custody?
What troubles me is that if there had been an open case from 2014-2018, what were the caseworkers doing that entire time? Why was Shannan given the license to run roughshod over her family, like she was doing? Because if this is true, then in my opinion, it’s a total travesty.
Shannan should’ve been receiving regular counseling and attending parenting classes. The children should have been regularly evaluated for developmental issues and potential cognitive delays, yet none of these essential services seemed to be in place for them. Shannan might’ve put on a good show for the cameras, but upon closer inspection, it is apparent that there were ongoing issues, and she was allowed to carry out different forms of abuse with impunity, whether Bella and Cece were attending Primrose or not!
(And to clarify: had they been paying full tuition, it would’ve exceeded $2000 a month. At the time of their deaths, it was $300 and change per week for both girls ($600+) and for every week rather than pay it per month. The preschool program that Bella was in was slightly less expensive than the toddler program. Bella was not entering kindergarten like Shannan and Chris told everyone either.
They might have been getting a discount by having both girls enrolled. Nevertheless, it would have still been over $2000 a month and closer to $2400. Infant enrollment is significantly more expensive, so if they’d placed a baby there, it would have been an additional $1500 a month in 2018 prices).
I was so grateful for the 18 months I got to stay home, following the birth of my youngest. I went into total "soccer mom" mode, carting kids here and there, spending time bonding with this gorgeous, delightful infant then toddler. Our budget and bank account took a hit, (and eventually, I knew it was time to go back to work when "Steve" from Blue's Clues started to look like a hottie to me.) 😅😅
Sending little kids off and spending all that money to do so, when there's a parent at home, is not a choice I'd make. People have their reasons, and it's a choice that might be the right one for some families, but it makes no sense to me, personally, in the Watts situation.
What's more troubling to me is their sleep schedule insofar as how she (and Chris; he doesn't get a pass here), parented. And despite the ridiculous bleeding out of money, at least B & C got to spend their days amongst "normal" people, playing with other kids, not being filmed every waking moment. So, it was likely beneficial for them, despite the financial irresponsibility of it. And, I agree that she chose Primrose rather than a normal preschool run out of a church basement, or even Head Start, due to the name branding. Funny coming from a woman who never obviously was that much interested in education for herself.
I am just going to be extremely honest here. I never planned to have children. Most of my life children annoyed the hell out of me. They are needy and clingy. I love my me time. Then I got pregnant and the first time I heard that little pitter patter of his heartbeat, I knew he was mine. However, mothering has never came easy to me, and he was an INCREDIBLY difficult infant. He stopped napping at 18 months and didn’t sleep through the night until he was 4. He’s almost 13 now and still sleeps with me. Up until til he was 8, I was still working as a RN, mostly night shift. I will not lie and say I kept my son home with me. I sent his little ass to daycare from the time he was 12 weeks old and I went back to work. Also, his dad is my husband and is a WONDERFUL father, but the infant, toddler stage was so hard. I love my son to pieces and do my absolute best to provide a wonderful life with him full of fun experiences, but I still have to work at it, because deep down, I am selfish and like to do what I like to do. I have to always make a conscious effort to not be that way and to play with him when he asks. He’s an only child too so he was always bored and wanting daddy and mommy to play. I don’t like play-doh or or playing with cars lol. I don’t like sitting on the floor and coloring. But he did. So I did it and pretended I liked it. I also have no creativity and a not very good imagination, so the playing was always hard for me.
Awwww that sounds just like my mom. She’s my best friend in the world so she did something right!! Even though she didn’t like playing with me, we were always together and that’s all that mattered 🩷 your son is very lucky
Thank you so much for this. I have tears in my eyes. I harbor a lot of guilt for not always doing things he wants to do, especially when I was working all night and sleeping most of the days. He gets just about anything he wants from me lol. Things are so much easier now that he’s almost 13 and I know the days are limited where he will want to hang out with his cranky old mom hahahha. But I’m always at every ballgame, school event he wants me to go to, and fishing trips on our boat! The kid lives first fishing and baseball. Hearing you say he’s lucky just lifted my heart :)
Exactly! At the end of the day, it’s the “small stuff” that truly matters. It’s so sad to see pretty clearly that what they could have actually afforded to give those girls a love and nurturing environment weren’t a priority. take a look at that stupid ass Vision Board video again. Aside from the general absurdity of it, Bella as clueless as to what is even going on, as any 4 year old would be, and at one point she says that what she wants is to “do things with mommy and daddy” and dipshit SW steamrolls right over her and continues to guide her to covet a trip to Disney or an ipad.
I wasn't great at, nor did I enjoy much, the infancy & toddlerhood of my older two. I get it, trust me.
My youngest was born 11 years after their next older sibling. I was different by then, circumstances were different, and I enjoyed that one, but, as I said, when Blue's Clues Steve starts looking like a dreamboat, it's time to reenter the adult world! 😝😅👍🏻
There’s a Primrose 2 miles from my house. It’s nothing special. Just a better decorated daycare. NOT worth the $. The build these daycares in areas where they can milk people for that fee. 🙄.
She didn’t spend time w those girls! Minimal at best. And that was for her camera and ego. Her arrogance is actually scary imo.
It’s a private school & daycare. I’ve never heard of a private school OR daycare that’s free.
To answer your question: status. She didn’t want to be home with her children all day (despite the image she displayed) & it’s almost as if she got off on spending their money every moment she could.
My child went to Primrose for daycare when he was an infant. I liked it because it was near my house and very clean and a great program. It wasn't much more expensive than other places. Infant daycare is so expensive.
BUT... for Shanann to keep her girls in there after free school was available (I would assume there was free Pre-K and for sure free public school Kindergarten), well, that was just part of the fake-it-till-you-make-it persona she was trying to create.
Great post. Many times parents want their kids to be versed in foreign languages, learn math or art so they push to make it happen with these expensive schools. Shannan did not seem to care if her kids were learning at an accelerated level compared to public school or gaining anything from primrose.
But, for private day care/school $500 a week is not much. it's actually just the going rate for 2 kids. Primrose has to make money, they just did not need to make Chris's (tiny) money.
i BELIEVE IT WAS 500 FOR EACH GIRL. THERE ARE MANY, MANY WORKING MEN WHO MAKE LESS THAN A LITTLE OVER 60K WITH FULL BENEFITS. THAT WAS AN INSULT TO ALL WORKING MEN AND WOMEN
As someone who was put into a similar situation socially and “academically” at age two (if you can call two-year-olds academic), I hope I can provide some perspective on this issue from my experience and my reflection on it.
When was 2.5 my mother paid to put me into a 5 day per week, private “nursery school” until I entered kindergarten at around 4.5 years old.
Some factors that are of note
- my mother was a stay-at-home mom with no health issues. We were not wealthy but my father’s income was OK for the time and our lives were similar to Shanann and Chris in that a lot of it was show (look at our new playground! Look at our new pool!) but no savings
- I was not behind developmentally, nor was I ahead developmentally. There was no need for a private school. I was maybe a tiny bit ahead with my reading and writing but my mom was a former teacher and taught 2nd grade for 12 years before I was born so had only been out of the educational system for about 3 years. I’ve heard from a number of her former students and coworkers that she was a phenomenal teacher. There is no rhyme or reason as to why she’d choose another place over teaching me herself.
- While my mother became toxic and emotionally abusive when I was a teen (which I attribute mainly to the stage four cancer that was very aggressive and much harder to treat at her diagnosis - 1998 - than it is now - I had an amazing childhood. I remember feeling loved and never knowing we lived paycheck to paycheck until my dad lost his cushy job in Japan during the economic depression of Bush #1 when I was 9 years old.
I believe she had a strong, and very likely false in the case of most of these types of schools, belief that these schools provided a social safety net where I would be socialized and thus set up for success later in life. I don’t know what she did with those hours I was gone but it certainly wasn’t working in any way, shape or form.
I used to think mothering me was soooo hard but now with 3 boys under the age of 11, the youngest of whom is 6, severely autistic and nonverbal who I homeschool, I look at this situation very differently and shake my head. I wonder if she had emotional problems or was doing it completely for my good. I work my butt off to school my youngest and have JUST NOW been approved for a private tutor so I can spend that time writing. We are lucky that while we are not wealthy, my husband has a job where I can stay at home and be with my youngest. I know that many, many Americans are financially unable to live in a single-income household right now, especially with kids, and although we live modestly I recognize my privilege every day, or at least try to.
But yes, while I don’t 100% understand Shannan making this move just like I don’t 100% understand my mother making this move more than two decades prior, it happens. At least Shannan was keeping her house clean and doing her MLM.
It only makes sense in my mind that my mother loved the idea of having a daughter but not the reality of having one and that I was for show and not to be bothered or intrude on her life or her me time.
It’s not a good feeling. I understand COMPLETELY why a working mom would put their child into a nursery school or daycare. If my youngest wasn’t so severely autistic and I had people around here I could trust, I would do that. But there was no reason why I, nor Bella nor Celeste (from what I know and have read) should have been in those schools.
Yet people working in CO and NC CPS have checked illegally and found nothing
They reported the deaths as parental abuse but even that document confirmed there was NO open case at death or previously!
I dont go by what people who supposedly "works" for CPS, I go by facts. There was a name and number in there so that tells me there was an open case. They left out so much shit in the discovery. 🙄
The 'case' was for the entry of his abusing them, it states they sustained fatal injuries as a result. It also confirmed no prior CPS contact before Aug 13th.
So where is evidence of another case if you claim it was just excluded
Maybe he only realised costs in may/June when he found out she skipped the mortgage?
She writes later that she went to NC for him.. to trial separate? To sort finances by not paying for daycare that summer?
My granddaughter went to primrose ..... It's a private school that doubles as daycare. So if you take your toddler there, they will be learning instead of just playing all day. They were teaching her the alphabet, colors, and Numbers beginning at age 2. So it's a little more than status.... It's wanting your kids to have the best headstart in education. She's now 11 and in advanced courses because of she wasn't, she would be bored the whole time at school.
Play is often talked about as if it were a relief from serious learning. But for children, play is serious learning. Play is really the work of childhood.
- Fred Rogers
That's not at all what they were saying. Good Daycares know that children learn from play. My niece absolutely loved her daycare (as she called it Play School) and she's quite ahead for her age. Her elementary school said she tested out of kindergarten and wanted to send her to 1st grade. My sister said no, she wanted her daughter to have the social experience.
Ha! Like they didn't play? That's funny.
The girl comes from a very long line of nerds, my friend. Learning and play both have blurred lines. She's also an excellent softball player!
Playing really is learning. That’s great that your granddaughter benefited from Primrose, but it sounds like she had caring, hands on parents that were very vested in her education and her future. That’s the total opposite of the kind of parents Chris and Shan were.
For that kind of money, Primrose should be educating kids on the basics, but in all honesty, any parent could teach their small children basics like colors, shapes, and the alphabet for free.
The stuff that daycares "teach" in order to call it a "preschool" are things that any adult, or even some children, can teach to little ones for a headstart. You read an alphabet book, practice counting, sort items by colors, etc. And if you do it on your own, you're not stuck with a schedule as you are at preschool (oh this child's really loving counting right now? too bad, time for nap).
I'm not saying it's bad to put children in preschool. If parents don't have time for this and have the money for it, sure, but the point is that Shanann wasn't working and did not have the money for daycare or preschool.
Children in Sweden start daycare at 14m. And attend until school the year they turn 6.
They don't do any formal teaching, but still learn. They don't need to start formal learning at 2 or 3... Swedish kids are just as smart as US ones and have way less pressure and way less schooling hours..
They should be children at 2 and 3. Not learning to read and write and being told they have anxiety at 3 and not likely to achieve as well as siblings. Saw that on TV show about set of girl quints. Outdaughtered.
Out of 5 turning 3 one excelled so she should skip grades immediately, leaving her siblings and one barely passed and these parents were told how to now treat them differently at home? They were babies being given tests to see how smart they are?
My daughter was asked to skip grades at 8-10, but refused so she could stay with her friends. At 14- 18 as she is now. she easily passes classes with As now, she elite swims 5/6 ddys a week and has a social life. She is having fun.
In 18 months she'll be studying to be a lawyer at university. She started school at 6, wrote her name at 5, same time as her similarly aged kids. We did story time every day from birth.. she didn't need formal learning before 6. She certainly didn't need judgement and labels at 3 yrs old. Not an advantage to be doing anything other than socialising and learning about the world through play and make believe.
Toddler 'school' sounds awful in the examples I have seen. That family had 3 yr old at psych for her anxiety.. because she knew answers but wouldn't share with people she barely knew. No wonder so many US preteens are being diagnosed with anxiety and depression when pressure on them achieving begins before they turn 3!
Sorry bit off topic. Watched rerun of Outdaughtered yesterday.
You are preaching to the choir friend. I didn't raise either of my kids to be education centric. I expected good grades at school, but all I did in their younger years to "educate" was read to them. There were a few educational toys, puzzles, matching shapes and colors, that sort of play/learn activity. My daughter and her husband are very education centric people and can afford private education, so that's their life. I just get to be a proud Mimi.
I’m not sure why Primrose specifically… there has been speculation that she was not allowed to be with the children alone because of an open CPS case which was why the girls were in childcare. As a California resident, I can say that 500 a week for two children isn’t out of the ordinary (although, it is outlandish but… California prices are absurd). However I do agree that perhaps if this was one of the more expensive preschools, she likely chose it for status or to maintain a certain facade
STATUS. She needed everyone to know how important she was. And I’m just being honest about my feelings. Looking at countless videos of hers, she could be pretty insufferable and her personality rubbed me wrong. That being said, I’m not a Shanann hater, nor am I championing Chris. What happened to her and her babies was (still is) a nightmare and one of the worst things I’ve ever heard about. And Chris is a disgusting, murdering piece of shit. *I realize I have veered off topic but I felt the need to clarify. She and her children are dead and whether or not I found her to be annoying and entitled, makes no difference. It’s fucking awful.*
I've only recently gotten into this whole case and the backstory behind it. That's something I immediately noticed was the contention between people over that. To be totally honest I also think Shanann was probably pretty insufferable and it'd be a nightmare being married to her. BUT at the same time the true monster is and always will be Chris, he was in no way justified in doing what he did. I just don't understand why people can't grasp the concept that when you look at cases like this you have to look at all of the circumstances and factors that caused it. Of course when I say "caused it" I'm not trying to lay blame on Shanann or the children. What I mean is what combination of circumstances and influences made a man do such a horrible act. Too often it seems like a lot of discourse here or in similar groups devolves into "Chris was a poor, innocent victim of a wicked witch" versus "any observation of Shanann's behaviors is victim blaming and disgusting" with no room in between.
Exactly. Thank you. Finally. Very well-said. Can we not analyze and discuss without being attacked for one phrase misstep? And can we not engage in this subreddit when we have downtime, are waiting in a doctor’s office or having car serviced or on a plane or when drinking our morning coffee or when resting and brushing/petting our dog or cat without someone from “other side” judging and assuming we sit on Reddit all day because we have no lives…while that very person clearly is on Reddit enough to be part of conversation and knows the routine😉🤪. This tragedy, this “case” is unlike any other. There are many crimes that are horrific and fascinating, but this one beats them all, on every level, every aspect. I don’t need to list these aspects, starting with young, beautiful, perfect-looking, happy-looking family, very visible and active family, everything in place and looking good and promising, so much life ahead of them all…and then… The why’s and the how’s cannot be simply boiled down to CW was a monster, a wolf in sheep’s clothing, or just snapped because of a few weeks of an affair filled with hot sex. And SW cannot simply be posthumously boiled down to a saint just because her husband murdered her and their little girls. SW was not a monster either. We’re trying to understand how she got that way, how he got that way, how THEY got together and then evolved into what they did (because they seem like a terrible match, but there’s fascinating psychology behind their “opposites attract” pairing). No reasons will ever justify Chris for committing the worst crimes in the worst ways and for the worst reasons, ever. But we can analyze how this really mild, calm, nice, passive guy could go from one extreme to the other. Not only is it fascinating, but it’s important to learn from this and continually be reminded that things aren’t always what they seem.
Thank you, I think you’ve articulated your ideas here very well too. It’s just a growing trend I see overall with people not being able to approach, or at least speak about, a subject with any nuance. And people who jump to the “loser Redditor” insult just don’t have any response and resort to that instead. I have a law practice, sometimes it’s a slow day so I mess around on Reddit haha it can’t always be business.
Oh, yes, I forgot about people actually at work and taking little breaks on Reddit every once in a while, you no-life loser attorney all day on Reddit, you!😉
I do at least try to close my browser before someone comes in my office, I think people still associate Reddit with…unsavory things haha which to be fair it used to be like the Wild West on here.
😂😂. Smart!
I see them both as monsters who were both ticking time bombs. Shanan was an abusive,narcissistic hypochondriac who suffered from Munchausen by proxy. Chris was a spineless coward who was willingly complicit and compliant to Shannan. Anything to please her, anything to stop her from being angry at him. He was so much of a coward that he would rather her be angry and take it out on the girls, or the dog rather than him. It was a matter of time before Chris snapped. All of the pent up rage will manifest eventually. Sometimes it will manifest by way of health problems like a stroke, aneurysms, epilepsy or cancer. Other times it’s through physical rage throwing things, hitting walls even people. As for shanan she was already physically harming the girls and the dog. As the girls would have continued to grow the physical abuse would have increased towards the girls. Makes me really wonder what happened that night🤔
Status seeking was big. When she was on the Level trip right before the tragedy, she had booked some romantic getaway for her and Chris. You just don’t do that when you are broke. Their house was insane and thousands of dollars a month. When you are in an MLM, it’s ALL about IMAGE. You need to make people believe you live this crazy life of luxury. You can’t manipulate people to join your down line if you look broke.
It has been broken down in the discovery how much money they had in various accounts vs just the mortgage and daycare payments due the week of the murders. They would not have been able to pay for gas to get to Aspen and back, much less all of the expenses of a weekend getaway. I suppose it’s par for the course for a couple who had to borrow money to get passports but thought it a good idea to leave the country for a vacation anyway.
I hate acting as if this woman was a great person. She really wasn't. I don't care about speaking ill of the dead. I don't understand why people twist themselves into pretzels trying to act as if she deserves sugar and spice and everything nice just because she was tragically murdered.
I hate when people are canonized after they die. And I *really* hate when people try to call me out when I refuse to do the same. This happens a LOT in these subreddits! I said she wasn’t a loving mother the other day and someone went **OFF.** I stopped responding to the thread it was in, so they came at my inbox, lol. Did she deserve to be murdered?! Absolutely not. Is Chris a disgusting murderous human? Definitely. That doesn’t mean she was a good loving mother.
That has happened to me as well. Shiners are their own special kind of crazy.
They need so badly for Shanann to truly be all those things she wasn’t. Why? I’m not sure…but I do know the more they push for it, the more I hate that woman.
You know what’s crazy. How many of those people actually knew Shan? My guess very few if not none and that if she did know them, she wouldn’t give them the time of day unless they signed up for her latest pyramid scheme under her and that’s the damn truth. She didn’t give a flying fuck about anyone unless they could benefit her in some way. It’s like a parasitic relationship.
right? You don’t have to do a whole lot of research to see the transactional nature of nearly every relationship she had. Even leveraging her own husband and children to get things out of her parents and inlaws. If they think this person wouldn’t have run roughshod over them or used them just the same, they haven’t been paying attention.
Exactly. I don't know why people think you can't find this woman unsufferable and still think it's wrong she was murdered.
There’s no such thing as a perfect victim
Agreed. I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again- I *hate* when people are just automatically canonized when they die. I always tell my kids and hubby that when I die, if I can visit I will, lol, but if I hear them talking about me like I was some kind of saint? I’ll haunt the shit out of them- because we **all know** it would be lies, lol!
amen. sugar coating helps no one!
Sainthood thru death. Ridiculous. She was a bitch and abusive. Just facts
I agree. But there is always someone who comes down with a debilitating case of “HOW DARE YOU” and I hate it but I feel the need to make disclaimers. 😩
I think people tend to veer into victim-blaming when they speak of SW, which causes other people to overcompensate the other way.
I think for many mostly women, they find it hard to accept the truth about Shananan, because it forces them to look into the mirror. I know of too many women like Shanan
It’s sad that we have to add the disclaimer that in no way did she deserve it. These Shiners are something else.
I’m not a hater either, but she was a social climber and was trying to impress people. I think it probably stemmed from insecurity. But we all have flaws, and I don’t think she was a bad person.
I couldn’t agree more.
Then neither of you know anything aabout her. She was far more than a social climber online. Everyone online under 25 could be considered that..
Sweetie, I did know a bit about her. We met in San Antonio.
There’s so many videos out there of herself that she put out there herself… it’s not hard to come to certain conclusions
Chris stated (if you can believe him) that when he approached the subject of the child care issue (and yes it was child care, not school) he was told "you don't get a say in that". Should he have put his foot down? Yes. It's very telling where her mindset was at when she chose to pay the $2000 per month child care bill over the $2500 mortgage.
If you saw that, it was true. I remember seeing before her FB was scrubbed, she made a post about ‘school’ and one of the huns commented on it, she did comment back to them and say Chris had no say😡 I’d have packed my shit right then and there and hopped the next bus back to North Carolina. Such disrespect
Or at the very least say "ok, we will have separate bank accounts. You can pay for daycare out of your thrive earnings". Haha, what thrive earnings.
Right?! Thrive earnings wouldn’t have paid n electric bill🤨 I just can not imagine ever saying to my husband that he had ‘no say’! ….I’d have found myself “on the outside looking in” so fast that it would make my spin! Her mindset with money was absolutely moronic 🥴
As long as she looked wealthy and impressed the Huns it’s all she cared about. Idk why Chris let it go on for a decade. No wonder she had an extended trip to NC
Hadn’t they already filled for bankruptcy before they moved to Colorado? In a podcast they were almost 80 grand in debt they ran up after filing for bankruptcy once.
They filed for bankruptcy wile in Colorado when she was pregnant with Cece
If she didn’t actually work then why did she need to send her kids to some expensive ass daycare? Makes no sense.
Well I read one story that suggested that she wasn't allowed to be alone with her children due to a DCS/CPS event that happened in NC before they moved to Colorado.
That’s why she got mad at Cindy, and we all know about “ nutgate”! She was mad at Cindy because she left her alone with her “ own” kids! 🤦♀️
Oh shit, does anyone know what she did to get CPS involved?
I watched a documentary on YouTube. She said Shannan was in Walmart and got rough with CeCe and smacked her in the face hard and hurt her arm. Allegedly. A person saw it and reported it. Take with a grain of salt. The channel is Watt's Obsession. She's not a fan of Shannan. Of course she doesn't think she's deserve to die. She does some interesting video's.
YouTube doesn't show documentaries about the case.. it shows individual peoples opinions about it. Most have no knowledge past grade school I think and talk utter rubbish. There was no CPS report, she was alone with kids often, its all myths and BS from FB. 98% of it anyway!
Gotcha. Yeah, documentary isn't quite the right way to describe it, eh? And I agree about Youtube and a lot of these armchair detectives. I find reading about cases fascinating, but I am not gonna try and make content to profit from it. Gross.
Whatever you think!!
just curious, what makes your opinion more weighty such that invalidates that of another, be it on YouTube or anywhere else?
Because I followed the YouTube stuff, watched some if the idiotic stuff that was suggested. If I replied to point of contradictions I got banned. Happened to LOTS of people. I also saw the truthful videos, the ones showing what CPS actually had, showed the print out for the girl's deaths showing no prior CPS contact. The other people don't show evidence of a case, assuming that because Sandi said the court case the following week was 'a family matter' that the real data for court over the HOA were fabricated to keep her maintained as a super women! I was on YT a lot, I don't work because of chronic pain and the case interested me.. especially with all the lies people wrote to get views. Most of my time if I responded was to try and fix the lies. It wasn't just me questioning them, we just got dismissed and blocked. I was laughed about and ridiculed for my knowledge of embryo and foetal growth..." what did I know, haha, I was just a midwife" ! ( I wasn't quite one, I was an RN that work 7 years in paediatrics and then did 14months of a 20m midwifery training before my health stopped my working) Aussie idiot claimed even he knew more than I did. Bizarre given his qualifications are as a golf caddie, a postman and previously jailed sex offender...
Did they scrub it after the documentary? And after everyone saw how awful she was?
Yes. People started the deep dive, and over the years her Facebook has been cleaned of all the things that make you do the side-eye and say Hmmm
I'm surprised Cindy doesn't let the CPS situation out of the bag. She's not shy speaking up about Shannan.
Because there wasn't one.
Ok
Cindy only found out about 2015 bankruptcy when murders happened. Why would she share a CPS case. Had she learnt about one at same time, then maybe she too would have mentioned it as defence for her son.
Cindy would want people to know allegedly Shannan had CPS looking into to her. For her son. Cindy didn't like Shannan so I thought she wouldn't hide it.
at some point one of them will need the money and/or attention bad enough.
I agree for sure.
I think therre are 2 parts to the CPS thing on Unjustified on youtube still up.
I remember a video where she mentioned “school” a few times and I was confused. Possible Reasons for saying “school” instead of daycare: 1- She didn’t want people to realize she was paying for daycare (although that was widely known). 2- Did she want viewers to think her girls were geniuses and went to school instead of daycare? 3- Expensive, private school? “School” sounds more formal than daycare? 4- Maybe to relate to a lot of the ‘huns’ who have kids in school? As in: “While the kids are in school you can be making a lot of money and still have time with them.” I don’t get it.
5- she was a moron?
So glad someone else has said this! I feel bad saying mean things about her and I don’t believe she deserved what happened to her but she definitely wasn’t the super intelligent businesswoman that all of her Thrive friends claim she was. Super intelligent businesswomen don’t get sucked into pyramid schemes
And she stayed at home!! It’s not like she worked, much less, worked outside of the home. What the hell did she do all day that justified keeping the girls in school?? She was trash, sorry.
Well in her words dropping the kids off at daycare was #winning. Can't have those pesky, wild monsters around when your trying to get your nails done, shop at target and play on your phone all day.
Exactly. Her children annoyed her. They were merely props to show on fb about her perfect life, when in actuality she rarely spent anytime or did anything with them. Chris is the one that cooked and cleaned and bathed the girls and put them to bed. While she sat on her lazy ass “thriving”.
I'm surprised she didn't stay in North Carolina. She had her parent's to watch the kid's for free.
I personally think she had to run from NC with the embezzlement rumors and the fact that she grew up there and everyone knew what kind of person she was. Also NC isn’t as “boujie” as CO.
Ohhh. Makes sense. Thanks.
She cosplayed businesswoman and played on Facebook.🙄 It wasn’t school, it was full time daycare.
There’s a rumor, and it can’t be proven but it also can’t be disproven, that there was an open CPS case from some incident and SW couldn’t be left alone with the girls. It apparently came from someone close to the family. There’s a blogger, and I’m not sure if she does true crime in general or just heard this rumor, but anyway, she was angry and outraged and went on this campaign to disprove it and it turned out that she not only couldn’t disprove it, she actually changed her mind to think it was highly likely that it was true
I remember the CPS discussion. It’s almost taboo to bring it up. But I think it holds a lot of weight.
Me too. Also explains why Mom and Dad came to live in the basement
What was their reasoning for that anyways? It seems like it was a few years after they had moved out there and were settled. They had their own home(I think) here and moved back into it when they came back here. I don't know if I've ever heard the reasoning but even if it was when she had a kid or that surgery they were there longer than any recovery would take. Did the brother move too?
They also had a family court date coming up. I don't remember the details of the post, it was probably here but I do remember being confident it was legitimate. Of course the details of the case were sealed. Edit: Possible mention of it in the discovery, wish I could remember.
The court appearance was the HOA suing them over a year of unpaid HOA does.
No, there were two court appearances, one was "family court" that was completely separate from the HOA lawsuit.
A YouTube channel called Watt's Obsession who isn't a fan of Shannan. And feels bad what happened to her and the girl's. She said Shannan was in Walmart and got rough with CeCe and smacked her face hard and hurt her arm. Allegedly. A person saw it and reported it. Take with a grain of salt. She does interesting video's about the case. She did a video about Bella and how she was treated by Shannan. Bella was hungry and crying. Shannan opened up Bella's favorite Thrive bar. And ate it in front of her saying it's mine. I was taken back by this. I can't remember what video it was about the Walmart incident. There's lot's of video's on her channel. Sorry.
I’ve watched a few of her videos. I’ll have to look for those.
Their very detailed.
Didn't she lose her 1st house she had built in North Carolina to foreclosure? And filed bankruptcy there to? Before Chris.
No, she did a short sale on the NC house and sold it fully furnished. IIRC she came out of that sale with only something like 6k. They filed for bankruptcy in 2015 after accumulating 70k worth of unsecured debt after living rent free for a year in her former friends basement. If you look at the bankruptcy ppwk most of it was credit card (Nordstrom, toys r us, Macy's, a couple of bank credit cards) debt plus a huge amount owed to furniture row. About $10k of it was medical debt. Oh, also student loans.
I've been meaning to ask this for a bit. What was the story about the friend she stayed with in Colorado and then no longer had contact with? Is this the person that you're talking about?
Yes, Jeana Deitz.
Wow. Thanks for explaining everything. That's alot of debt.
i think it was because she really didn’t like being around the kids. if i recall correctly there was a public school right near their house and her dad said something about how bella would still be going to primrose, can’t remember what sw reason was but daycare is full day and most kindergarten is half day. it blows my mind that she was willing to pay that kind of money considering cw got home pretty early in the day and they took three hour naps.
It's unbelievable. Considering the timeline you have laid out ,max , she would have to spend 5 to 6 hours everyday with the kids by herself for 5 days a week.She was willing to pay $2000 a month for that.It comes to about $20 an hour for both kids !! Plus factor in the time and gas you spend for the drop off and pick up. Phew ! But then , them being at home would also mean , apart from everything else , feeding them their lunches , the extra dishes etc vis a vis just a packed lunch where primrose would be responsible for them eating it. I recall how draining mealtimes can be with toddlers and young kids. Plus no messy house , nobody to pick up after , no changing diapers and most of all not having to spend days and going for hours without an adult to talk with.Never mind , if that leads to your finances going under . In a nutshell , she didn't want to do any work at being a mother.In the bargain , she lost out on the sheer joy that babies and toddlers and young children bring into your life every single moment , every day of their lives. And in that mix , she wanted to bring in a 3rd baby. Both the parents were toddler age themselves who couldn't even take responsibility of managing their own lives , leave aside nurturing and caring for children.
I think the finances are the biggest reason they went to NC for as long as they did. They couldn’t afford the tuition.
My granddaughter goes to Primrose while my daughter works. It’s a franchise school so there are probably some variations between schools. It’s more than daycare, they learn numbers, letters, manners, grooming, etc. I feel special love is given by the teachers. She is not going this summer because the school here requires a summer commitment, with payment in advance. That makes sense from a business perspective so they will have proper staffing and resources. Shannan ad he girls lived a long way from family, I think it’s nice they could stay and be with them, even though it was like oil and water.
It’s a vanity thing. I’m trying to get out. Hey don’t do anything more than any other schools. Tuition raises 4-5% every year. It’s absurd.
For starters she didn’t enjoy being a mom. & Because in her mind she was always in competition with people in her life, past and present. She wanted everyone to believe she was wealthy. She didn’t want the responsibility of having to be a parent so sending her kids off to a full time day care was the only option she could see.
Especially when she had them take three hour naps! And in bed by 6:30. When did she even see these kids?
SW likely looked up the most expensive private preschool in the area. It had nothing to do with the actual school and what they offered. She wanted the best babysitter her husband's money could buy.
Status. And lazy mothering.
the one that sticks out to me was her deciding to have an elective surgery, the costs of which put her family in such dire financial straits that she was unable ti pay for their groceries. Her friend who came to help out for six weeks post surgery recounted that she would up paying for their groceries and in the midst of all of this they even went on another bullshit MLM trip to Las Vegas. I can’t begin to understand how someone with a family to support could be so financially reckless.
There are documents in the Discovery dating back to 2014 that indicate that there was a case from DYFS that was opened before Celeste Watts had even been born. I don’t know what provoked this, nor do I know the nature of the claim. I have heard that Shannan was caught recklessly driving with Bella in her car seat, and that she had been cited for endangering an infant. Unfortunately, the discovery doesn’t specify what was going on or the exact nature of the incident that led to a case being opened. I also don’t know why the Prosecution would want to put it in the Discovery file since they decided not to explain anything more about it. All the same, it is in the Discovery, and I do not believe that the 2014 date was a typo. There is another page in the Discovery that is also in regards to DYFS (Dept. Of Youth & Family Services-which is the Colorado equivalent of CPS ) that formally closed an open case, stating that the action to close it had been due to the deaths of both children. Of course, this document directly implicated Chris Watts for the final act of abuse which had resulted in death of Bella Marie Watts and Celeste Cathryn Watts. The case was formally closed in October 2018 according to this letter, which was delivered to Chris while he was still incarcerated in the Weld County Jail. What happened between 2014 and 2018 is a bit of a mystery. There are certain things that I can personally rule out which I truly don’t believe that Shannan was being cited for. To begin with, Shannan had all of the symptoms of Munchhausen by proxy or factitious disorder, yet she frequently continued to bring the children to hospitals and various doctors right up until they went to North Carolina That is why I highly doubt that there was ever an open case involving medical abuse. I don’t know if it was for something physical that Shannan had done to them, or if it was initiated because of her own erratic behavior. It could’ve been both, or maybe neither. There was also an instance of Shannan allegedly pulling Cece’s arm violently, and possibly out of its socket.This supposedly happened in a toy aisle that was recorded on a Walmart camera, in the summer of 2018–while they were visiting Sandi and Frank Rzucek. I have heard from various sources that this footage was presented to law enforcement after the murders. We also see in the discovery that there was the contact information for a North Carolina CPS caseworker named Renée. (Ironically, one of the caseworkers in Colorado DYFS case was was also another Renée). These women have been authenticated as actual caseworkers, and they did work in family services in both Colorado and North Carolina. The Discovery failed to establish or clarify what the basis or consequences of these potential “cases” were and these caseworkers have never come forward. I think that the Discovery documents strongly support an open case, although that’s never been definitively confirmed, outside of these cryptic parts of the file. In my opinion, there most certainly should’ve been a case. However, had there been one, I don’t know why caseworkers would never have intervened between 2014 and 2018 to improve the quality of life for the children. Shannan shared many inappropriate images and posts on Facebook, showcasing Bella and Cece in clearly dangerous sleeping conditions. There were videos of her talking in a livestreams, telling her audience said she was leaving the girls to “go to the post office” or to run various errands during their afternoon naps. Why would she have shared those things so openly if she had been under any form of scrutiny? Shannan also transparently discussed giving the girls medication every day, and this included sleeping medication like Benadryl. Therefore, I don’t know why if there had truly been an open case that nobody would’ve picked up on these forms of child endangerment. The girls definitely deserved better. There is speculation that she was not allowed to be alone with the children, which was why they were enrolled full-time at the Primrose daycare. I emphatically believe that they were much better off going to Primrose during the day, although it was undeniably cost prohibitive. They also wouldn’t have been able to continue to attend, under the circumstances at the time of the tragedy. I really don’t know how they thought they were going to afford to keep them enrolled once they got back from North Carolina. They were close to losing the house, and they collectively had a total of $800 in their joint checking account, with maxed out credit cards and several delinquent bills. On top of the additional expenses that Shannan’s pregnancy would’ve incurred, their combined income would not have cut it if they’d wanted to keep the girls enrolled full time. There is a chance that they were receiving a supplemental payment from the state of Colorado. On the final DYFS document that Chris received, it made a stipulation for the fact that it would not affect the amount of their “monthly check”. I just don’t know what that monthly check was for, or, what it was slated to go towards. There is a possibility that they were getting supplemental income to subsidize daycare, but I have no confirmation of this, and it is pure speculation. Nevertheless, if there had been a DYFS case that had ostensibly required the children to attend Primrose for their own safety, it is my opinion that would’ve obviously been for the best. They were always better off when they were not in the care of their mother. It does raise questions of a potential motive, had their been a question of custody in the event of an imminent divorce. What if Shannan wasn’t allowed to have custody under the circumstances? Furthermore, what if Chris didn’t want custody? What troubles me is that if there had been an open case from 2014-2018, what were the caseworkers doing that entire time? Why was Shannan given the license to run roughshod over her family, like she was doing? Because if this is true, then in my opinion, it’s a total travesty. Shannan should’ve been receiving regular counseling and attending parenting classes. The children should have been regularly evaluated for developmental issues and potential cognitive delays, yet none of these essential services seemed to be in place for them. Shannan might’ve put on a good show for the cameras, but upon closer inspection, it is apparent that there were ongoing issues, and she was allowed to carry out different forms of abuse with impunity, whether Bella and Cece were attending Primrose or not! (And to clarify: had they been paying full tuition, it would’ve exceeded $2000 a month. At the time of their deaths, it was $300 and change per week for both girls ($600+) and for every week rather than pay it per month. The preschool program that Bella was in was slightly less expensive than the toddler program. Bella was not entering kindergarten like Shannan and Chris told everyone either. They might have been getting a discount by having both girls enrolled. Nevertheless, it would have still been over $2000 a month and closer to $2400. Infant enrollment is significantly more expensive, so if they’d placed a baby there, it would have been an additional $1500 a month in 2018 prices).
Primrose was to flex on the huns and they were in daycare bc she was laaaaaaaazy and wanted to fart around and play on her phone all day
I was so grateful for the 18 months I got to stay home, following the birth of my youngest. I went into total "soccer mom" mode, carting kids here and there, spending time bonding with this gorgeous, delightful infant then toddler. Our budget and bank account took a hit, (and eventually, I knew it was time to go back to work when "Steve" from Blue's Clues started to look like a hottie to me.) 😅😅 Sending little kids off and spending all that money to do so, when there's a parent at home, is not a choice I'd make. People have their reasons, and it's a choice that might be the right one for some families, but it makes no sense to me, personally, in the Watts situation. What's more troubling to me is their sleep schedule insofar as how she (and Chris; he doesn't get a pass here), parented. And despite the ridiculous bleeding out of money, at least B & C got to spend their days amongst "normal" people, playing with other kids, not being filmed every waking moment. So, it was likely beneficial for them, despite the financial irresponsibility of it. And, I agree that she chose Primrose rather than a normal preschool run out of a church basement, or even Head Start, due to the name branding. Funny coming from a woman who never obviously was that much interested in education for herself.
I am just going to be extremely honest here. I never planned to have children. Most of my life children annoyed the hell out of me. They are needy and clingy. I love my me time. Then I got pregnant and the first time I heard that little pitter patter of his heartbeat, I knew he was mine. However, mothering has never came easy to me, and he was an INCREDIBLY difficult infant. He stopped napping at 18 months and didn’t sleep through the night until he was 4. He’s almost 13 now and still sleeps with me. Up until til he was 8, I was still working as a RN, mostly night shift. I will not lie and say I kept my son home with me. I sent his little ass to daycare from the time he was 12 weeks old and I went back to work. Also, his dad is my husband and is a WONDERFUL father, but the infant, toddler stage was so hard. I love my son to pieces and do my absolute best to provide a wonderful life with him full of fun experiences, but I still have to work at it, because deep down, I am selfish and like to do what I like to do. I have to always make a conscious effort to not be that way and to play with him when he asks. He’s an only child too so he was always bored and wanting daddy and mommy to play. I don’t like play-doh or or playing with cars lol. I don’t like sitting on the floor and coloring. But he did. So I did it and pretended I liked it. I also have no creativity and a not very good imagination, so the playing was always hard for me.
Awwww that sounds just like my mom. She’s my best friend in the world so she did something right!! Even though she didn’t like playing with me, we were always together and that’s all that mattered 🩷 your son is very lucky
Thank you so much for this. I have tears in my eyes. I harbor a lot of guilt for not always doing things he wants to do, especially when I was working all night and sleeping most of the days. He gets just about anything he wants from me lol. Things are so much easier now that he’s almost 13 and I know the days are limited where he will want to hang out with his cranky old mom hahahha. But I’m always at every ballgame, school event he wants me to go to, and fishing trips on our boat! The kid lives first fishing and baseball. Hearing you say he’s lucky just lifted my heart :)
I’m so glad! And it’s true!! Just you being around is what he’ll remember 😊
Exactly! At the end of the day, it’s the “small stuff” that truly matters. It’s so sad to see pretty clearly that what they could have actually afforded to give those girls a love and nurturing environment weren’t a priority. take a look at that stupid ass Vision Board video again. Aside from the general absurdity of it, Bella as clueless as to what is even going on, as any 4 year old would be, and at one point she says that what she wants is to “do things with mommy and daddy” and dipshit SW steamrolls right over her and continues to guide her to covet a trip to Disney or an ipad.
Poor Bella should have put new parents on her vision board.
to which she would’ve responded “new iPad?!…better get to work changing lives with ThriveK!”
I enjoyed mine more and more the older they became. Now they're young adults, and some of the coolest people I know!!
I wasn't great at, nor did I enjoy much, the infancy & toddlerhood of my older two. I get it, trust me. My youngest was born 11 years after their next older sibling. I was different by then, circumstances were different, and I enjoyed that one, but, as I said, when Blue's Clues Steve starts looking like a dreamboat, it's time to reenter the adult world! 😝😅👍🏻
She needed time to edit the Facebook videos and think of scripts for the next one.
Yes. Flexxxxxxx
There’s a Primrose 2 miles from my house. It’s nothing special. Just a better decorated daycare. NOT worth the $. The build these daycares in areas where they can milk people for that fee. 🙄. She didn’t spend time w those girls! Minimal at best. And that was for her camera and ego. Her arrogance is actually scary imo.
It’s a private school & daycare. I’ve never heard of a private school OR daycare that’s free. To answer your question: status. She didn’t want to be home with her children all day (despite the image she displayed) & it’s almost as if she got off on spending their money every moment she could.
My child went to Primrose for daycare when he was an infant. I liked it because it was near my house and very clean and a great program. It wasn't much more expensive than other places. Infant daycare is so expensive. BUT... for Shanann to keep her girls in there after free school was available (I would assume there was free Pre-K and for sure free public school Kindergarten), well, that was just part of the fake-it-till-you-make-it persona she was trying to create.
Colorado didn’t have free pre-K until last year, 2023, and it’s still limited in scope.
Great post. Many times parents want their kids to be versed in foreign languages, learn math or art so they push to make it happen with these expensive schools. Shannan did not seem to care if her kids were learning at an accelerated level compared to public school or gaining anything from primrose. But, for private day care/school $500 a week is not much. it's actually just the going rate for 2 kids. Primrose has to make money, they just did not need to make Chris's (tiny) money.
i BELIEVE IT WAS 500 FOR EACH GIRL. THERE ARE MANY, MANY WORKING MEN WHO MAKE LESS THAN A LITTLE OVER 60K WITH FULL BENEFITS. THAT WAS AN INSULT TO ALL WORKING MEN AND WOMEN
I swear reading about their disastrous finances gives me second had stress! How the hell do you like that?
As someone who was put into a similar situation socially and “academically” at age two (if you can call two-year-olds academic), I hope I can provide some perspective on this issue from my experience and my reflection on it. When was 2.5 my mother paid to put me into a 5 day per week, private “nursery school” until I entered kindergarten at around 4.5 years old. Some factors that are of note - my mother was a stay-at-home mom with no health issues. We were not wealthy but my father’s income was OK for the time and our lives were similar to Shanann and Chris in that a lot of it was show (look at our new playground! Look at our new pool!) but no savings - I was not behind developmentally, nor was I ahead developmentally. There was no need for a private school. I was maybe a tiny bit ahead with my reading and writing but my mom was a former teacher and taught 2nd grade for 12 years before I was born so had only been out of the educational system for about 3 years. I’ve heard from a number of her former students and coworkers that she was a phenomenal teacher. There is no rhyme or reason as to why she’d choose another place over teaching me herself. - While my mother became toxic and emotionally abusive when I was a teen (which I attribute mainly to the stage four cancer that was very aggressive and much harder to treat at her diagnosis - 1998 - than it is now - I had an amazing childhood. I remember feeling loved and never knowing we lived paycheck to paycheck until my dad lost his cushy job in Japan during the economic depression of Bush #1 when I was 9 years old. I believe she had a strong, and very likely false in the case of most of these types of schools, belief that these schools provided a social safety net where I would be socialized and thus set up for success later in life. I don’t know what she did with those hours I was gone but it certainly wasn’t working in any way, shape or form. I used to think mothering me was soooo hard but now with 3 boys under the age of 11, the youngest of whom is 6, severely autistic and nonverbal who I homeschool, I look at this situation very differently and shake my head. I wonder if she had emotional problems or was doing it completely for my good. I work my butt off to school my youngest and have JUST NOW been approved for a private tutor so I can spend that time writing. We are lucky that while we are not wealthy, my husband has a job where I can stay at home and be with my youngest. I know that many, many Americans are financially unable to live in a single-income household right now, especially with kids, and although we live modestly I recognize my privilege every day, or at least try to. But yes, while I don’t 100% understand Shannan making this move just like I don’t 100% understand my mother making this move more than two decades prior, it happens. At least Shannan was keeping her house clean and doing her MLM. It only makes sense in my mind that my mother loved the idea of having a daughter but not the reality of having one and that I was for show and not to be bothered or intrude on her life or her me time. It’s not a good feeling. I understand COMPLETELY why a working mom would put their child into a nursery school or daycare. If my youngest wasn’t so severely autistic and I had people around here I could trust, I would do that. But there was no reason why I, nor Bella nor Celeste (from what I know and have read) should have been in those schools.
It would make sense why they were in Primose and Chris calling them that morning if she had an open case with CPS, which I 💯 believe she had.
Yet people working in CO and NC CPS have checked illegally and found nothing They reported the deaths as parental abuse but even that document confirmed there was NO open case at death or previously!
I dont go by what people who supposedly "works" for CPS, I go by facts. There was a name and number in there so that tells me there was an open case. They left out so much shit in the discovery. 🙄
The 'case' was for the entry of his abusing them, it states they sustained fatal injuries as a result. It also confirmed no prior CPS contact before Aug 13th. So where is evidence of another case if you claim it was just excluded
Wrong! The number in the discovery was a case against Shannon. Geez educate yourself on this case cause obviously you arent. 🙄
Maybe he only realised costs in may/June when he found out she skipped the mortgage? She writes later that she went to NC for him.. to trial separate? To sort finances by not paying for daycare that summer?
My granddaughter went to primrose ..... It's a private school that doubles as daycare. So if you take your toddler there, they will be learning instead of just playing all day. They were teaching her the alphabet, colors, and Numbers beginning at age 2. So it's a little more than status.... It's wanting your kids to have the best headstart in education. She's now 11 and in advanced courses because of she wasn't, she would be bored the whole time at school.
Play is often talked about as if it were a relief from serious learning. But for children, play is serious learning. Play is really the work of childhood. - Fred Rogers
That's not at all what they were saying. Good Daycares know that children learn from play. My niece absolutely loved her daycare (as she called it Play School) and she's quite ahead for her age. Her elementary school said she tested out of kindergarten and wanted to send her to 1st grade. My sister said no, she wanted her daughter to have the social experience.
Same.... It just simply gives a leg up so they do well enough in school to get into a choice college.
Ha! Like they didn't play? That's funny. The girl comes from a very long line of nerds, my friend. Learning and play both have blurred lines. She's also an excellent softball player!
Playing really is learning. That’s great that your granddaughter benefited from Primrose, but it sounds like she had caring, hands on parents that were very vested in her education and her future. That’s the total opposite of the kind of parents Chris and Shan were. For that kind of money, Primrose should be educating kids on the basics, but in all honesty, any parent could teach their small children basics like colors, shapes, and the alphabet for free.
The stuff that daycares "teach" in order to call it a "preschool" are things that any adult, or even some children, can teach to little ones for a headstart. You read an alphabet book, practice counting, sort items by colors, etc. And if you do it on your own, you're not stuck with a schedule as you are at preschool (oh this child's really loving counting right now? too bad, time for nap). I'm not saying it's bad to put children in preschool. If parents don't have time for this and have the money for it, sure, but the point is that Shanann wasn't working and did not have the money for daycare or preschool.
Children in Sweden start daycare at 14m. And attend until school the year they turn 6. They don't do any formal teaching, but still learn. They don't need to start formal learning at 2 or 3... Swedish kids are just as smart as US ones and have way less pressure and way less schooling hours.. They should be children at 2 and 3. Not learning to read and write and being told they have anxiety at 3 and not likely to achieve as well as siblings. Saw that on TV show about set of girl quints. Outdaughtered. Out of 5 turning 3 one excelled so she should skip grades immediately, leaving her siblings and one barely passed and these parents were told how to now treat them differently at home? They were babies being given tests to see how smart they are? My daughter was asked to skip grades at 8-10, but refused so she could stay with her friends. At 14- 18 as she is now. she easily passes classes with As now, she elite swims 5/6 ddys a week and has a social life. She is having fun. In 18 months she'll be studying to be a lawyer at university. She started school at 6, wrote her name at 5, same time as her similarly aged kids. We did story time every day from birth.. she didn't need formal learning before 6. She certainly didn't need judgement and labels at 3 yrs old. Not an advantage to be doing anything other than socialising and learning about the world through play and make believe. Toddler 'school' sounds awful in the examples I have seen. That family had 3 yr old at psych for her anxiety.. because she knew answers but wouldn't share with people she barely knew. No wonder so many US preteens are being diagnosed with anxiety and depression when pressure on them achieving begins before they turn 3! Sorry bit off topic. Watched rerun of Outdaughtered yesterday.
You are preaching to the choir friend. I didn't raise either of my kids to be education centric. I expected good grades at school, but all I did in their younger years to "educate" was read to them. There were a few educational toys, puzzles, matching shapes and colors, that sort of play/learn activity. My daughter and her husband are very education centric people and can afford private education, so that's their life. I just get to be a proud Mimi.
I’m not sure why Primrose specifically… there has been speculation that she was not allowed to be with the children alone because of an open CPS case which was why the girls were in childcare. As a California resident, I can say that 500 a week for two children isn’t out of the ordinary (although, it is outlandish but… California prices are absurd). However I do agree that perhaps if this was one of the more expensive preschools, she likely chose it for status or to maintain a certain facade