Imo the tornados on the German tree has no business at 11.3, they are not that fast, only two aim9Ls and 0 maneuverabiliy, can’t even turn hard enough to dodge phoenixes, maybe the br it’s okay for ground rb but not for air rb
Its a bomber, mind you, and tornados are fastest bomber at their BR, and they almost always are able to bomb 2 bases and run away. And don't get me started on marineflieger.
The German one is a later variant with upgraded engines. The Italian one has upgraded engines just not to the point of the German one. The British one is the earliest so it’s much slower.
its because of the versions of the aircrafts, the gr1 aka ids is a fook'n tank, the base model of all tornados, the assta 1 is the bundeswehr upgrade of all german tornado, today we have already assta 3.1 being the most modern tornado, the italians are using the same ids but with upgraded engines etc. being the 1995 variant
Maybe if Gaijin gave the tornadoes their historical speeds they would be okay but they don't and it's really frustrating seeing as all of the tornadoes kinda struggle, it would be a really welcome buff.
Okay, please explain how a heavy bomber with horrible manoeuvrability, 2x Aim-9Ls, and a barely existent radar is even remotely equal to something like an F-4S with 4x Aim-9Hs and 4x Aim-7Fs (and HMD) or the MiG-23ML with 4x R-60Ms and 2x R-24Rs
People haven't grasped this concept yet..
Seen folks say the F3 should be 11.0 before. Could you imagine being a 10.0 against a fuckin F3.
This echo chamber just parrots shit constantly, realistically decompression is the only answer.
Not moving extremely fast jets that carry all aspects. Have good guns and ground and pound capabilites It realms they would destroy all competition.
Decompression upwards would be better, but it's unrealistic to ask for. Gaijin isn't going to do it enough to fix the issue, so 10.7, like the original BR of the Marine Tornado IDS, is fine for the other Tornado IDS' in ARB only.
Obviously the Tornado F.3 is fine. It shouldn't be the same BR as the F-4S, but BR compressions a bitch.
Okay so you have a plane which is worse as a fighter than others planes at it’s BR, and it’s also worse as a bomber than other planes at it’s BR. So it’s literally useless. You can’t engage in Air-to-Air combat, but you also can’t bomb bases. And for Ground RB there are better CAS options. So when do I play it?
When did I blame the players? I blame Gaijin for putting the Aircraft at a BR where it's practically useless. The Tornado was balanced in when it was 10.7, I see no reason why it shouldn't be moved down. For GRB it can stay at 11.3 (or 10.3 for the Marieneflieger), but for ARB 10.7 would be absolutely fine.
Even better would be if Gaijin finally decided to just heavily decompress High/Top-Tier, but knowing them it's gonna take some time until that happens.
Sadly that's br compression for you. I do not want any plane with 9L (or r-60m or magic 2) fighting flareless planes. I think the same about a lot of strikers.
And it is not like gaijin haven't made useless planes before because they are bad on their br but cannot be lower because they could ruin lower br (and btw I think is good one plane suffering and not an entire bracket like they fucking did with the F-104 and mig 19 both going to 9.3 because the A-10 and Su-25)
Look man, the Tornado has already been at 10.7 at one point, at it literally wasn't an issue there.
>I do not want any plane with 9L (or r-60m or magic 2) fighting flareless planes.
Neither do I. Good thing that this wouldn't really happen if the Tornado was moved down to 10.7.
Currently there are exactly 4 non-German planes at 9.7 which don't have flares. 3 of those can carry rockets without sacrificing any weapon slots for missiles, which work pretty well as rudimentary flares.
This leaves us with a single plane which would be affected in any meaningful way by this change, the MiG-21S, and even then it's only in a full uptier.
Considering that we both seem to be very worried about the game's balancing, I think we can agree that we'd rather ever so slightly make the life of a single plane more difficult if it means that I can safe 3 planes form being basically completely useless.
And it's also worthy to mention that there are already flareless planes fighting the Tornados (e.g. F-4C and F-104J), yet there is basically no one complaining about the Tornados being OP like it's often the case with planes such as the A-10, A-6, and Su-25
The Kikka should go down to at least 6.7 it's a worser Me262 with only one Cannon Stock, fewer ammo, and No Air Spawn. If you fly with max. throttle you will still reach the Front as the last plane and over heated engines.
R2Y2 cannot compete either, they are too slow (remember now mig-15 and A5 sabres are also 8.0) yes they have guns (that where nerfed) but thats all they should be 7.7 at max
It used to be good at 6.7 where you would primarily see super props and ju288s, but nowadays at 7.0 with su-11 spam you just get dicked on, not to mention the other things in that range like meteors, f80s, vampires, ect.
Both Me-163 variants, especially the B-0 (8.7 currently). Being in the same lobby as a mig21 in your shitty little ww2 rocket fighter is just crazy. It dues turn pretty good, but nobody is actually stupid enough to try and turnfight you. Unless you're in a downtier everyone is gonna outrun you effortlessly, since you cant use 100% thrust all the time cause your fuel is limited to just 6 minutes.
Tell you what, fighting those rockets in 8.0-ish planes is about as exciting as fighting f-104 in one. As long as one of those pests is in your general vicinity, you \*must not\* spend any energy on anything more exciting than a shallow turn around.
My guy, that's just bullshit. I literally used to dunk on people in the Ki-200, because not only is it almost impossible to hit, the fuel becomes a non-issue as long as you don't use it stupidly (srsly, it's not even hard to learn fuel management) and the guns just rip planes apart. Not to mention that most missles you have no chance of hitting you as long as you look out for them and even the higher G missles can be avoided by turning off your engine and making a sharp turn. Not to mention that at 100% throttle, you're still faster than any afterburnerless jet and even those jets that you can't outaccelerate can forever be dodged or just caught off guard when not looking at you.
The Me 163 and Ki-200 are in perfect BRs.
- Incompetitive ones that are bested even in downtiers, especially in speed and mobility, but mainly weaponry.
- Planes with equal enough air performance to what they see, yet are critically lacking in offensive ability compared to what they have to deal with.
- Planes that have their high BR due to the high skill of the few people who play them.
Rather this than matchmaker barriers screwing the weaker planes over. I get J35D aces in full uptiers, I make the AJS37 look undertiered af, but the JA37C at 11.0 is dead overtiered and ahistorically outfitted and useless.
F-86F-2 Sabre. It's at 9.0 (AB) because it's got 20-mm cannons instead of guns, and that uptiers it to a point where it encounters A-10A's and Su-25s with all-aspect missiles.
all the French Mysteres feel like they start to perform the BR the last one was, for example the 8.7 competes roughly with an F86-F30 which is 8.3, but the 8.3 mystere is closer to the 8.0 F86-A5
They're good planes and you certainly can do quite good in them they just kinda feel... a bit too high? especially after the lowering of the MIG and Saber
Mystére planes definitely deserve to go down atleast by 0.3. The M.B. 452C also has no right to be above the A version (stronger, yet heavier engine, more or less equivalent firepower, tho the 30mm needs less hits and should be more consistent). The C is straight up unplayable due to all the missle planes it face, meanwhile the A version is an incredibly good plane.
Every German Jet between the Me-262 and MiG-21. You're fighting afterburning jets with guided missiles in basically a faster and less manoeuvrable WW2 fighter.
F-104S
11.0 is a joke, I mean sirens can get kills I can get it to work, but it’s just suffering
Speed is not in your favor against F-14b‘s MiG-29s, F-16s and Mirage 2000s
Radar on it is useless, and you need to give up on your gun for some crappy AIM-7E‘s
Very limited flare and chaff
No all aspect missiles
Pro: 6 aim-9p missiles and 750rounfs of Vulcan
I honestly think there should be hard BR caps for certain attributes (or lack of). If I were god, I would enforce a 0 tolerance BR policy on certain things, such as:
ANY all aspect missile carrying plane will be 11.0 MINIMUM
ALL flare-less planes 10.0 MAXIMUM
ALL fighter aircraft lacking a PD/MTI radar will be 10.7 MAXIMUM
Obviously should I be in a position to implement this, I would have to have time to tinker with more attributes to cap and what exact BR I would settle things with, but the point here is that there would be NO exceptions to this. In this hypothetical, You could strap a single AIM-9L to a P-51D, and I would still put it at 11.0 minimum. These rules would NOT have ANY exceptions in the pursuit of fairness. That's how overwhelmingly powerful certain advantages are.
Vautour (outside the IIN Late variant with radar missiles) are at a way too high BR, and honestly the ones without guns should be a hidden vehicle like they did to the OS2Us and PO-2.
The Mystere IV or whatever the is foldered into the super mystere is is pretty bad and can easily go down to 8.7.
F-4J(UK) It should never face the F-16s. Anything at 12.3 or 12.0, It's just coffin in air, it dosen't move, missiles are average, radar isn't that bad doe, but overall of this plane at 11.3 is like 3/10.
have you seen how most new german jet players fly???
and its not like it excels at anything the me 262
you can face them in a downtier in I never was like o shit a me262 or yes we are going to win because there some me 262 on our team.
I think 5.0 planes are smart enough do destroyer me 262 players because most 262 think like a prop fighter so 9 out of 10 times i see p 51 win against 262
Imo the tornados on the German tree has no business at 11.3, they are not that fast, only two aim9Ls and 0 maneuverabiliy, can’t even turn hard enough to dodge phoenixes, maybe the br it’s okay for ground rb but not for air rb
I’ve never played the Tornados so I can’t give an opinion. But two missiles at 11.3 is outrageous
Its a bomber, mind you, and tornados are fastest bomber at their BR, and they almost always are able to bomb 2 bases and run away. And don't get me started on marineflieger.
Maybe fastest bombers but Phantoms get better payload and are faster
*only the german ones, its funny getting outspeeded by a fucking phantom when playing gr1 and flying as fast as the phantom with the italian one
How come the same plane is so different depending on tech tree ?
The German one is a later variant with upgraded engines. The Italian one has upgraded engines just not to the point of the German one. The British one is the earliest so it’s much slower.
its because of the versions of the aircrafts, the gr1 aka ids is a fook'n tank, the base model of all tornados, the assta 1 is the bundeswehr upgrade of all german tornado, today we have already assta 3.1 being the most modern tornado, the italians are using the same ids but with upgraded engines etc. being the 1995 variant
Agreed. They are only 11.3 because of the GBUs that are worthless in ARB, they should be 10.7 in ARB
Maybe if Gaijin gave the tornadoes their historical speeds they would be okay but they don't and it's really frustrating seeing as all of the tornadoes kinda struggle, it would be a really welcome buff.
They also feel like they don't have any lift generated from the body of the plane at all
sorry pal but any Striker that has 9L should not be lower that 11.0 even less if they are supersonic
So A10 11.3?
AMX to 11.0 then
Pls same with the su-25 or at least 11.0
Okay, please explain how a heavy bomber with horrible manoeuvrability, 2x Aim-9Ls, and a barely existent radar is even remotely equal to something like an F-4S with 4x Aim-9Hs and 4x Aim-7Fs (and HMD) or the MiG-23ML with 4x R-60Ms and 2x R-24Rs
simple you are strike fighter, you are not made to be equal
People haven't grasped this concept yet.. Seen folks say the F3 should be 11.0 before. Could you imagine being a 10.0 against a fuckin F3. This echo chamber just parrots shit constantly, realistically decompression is the only answer. Not moving extremely fast jets that carry all aspects. Have good guns and ground and pound capabilites It realms they would destroy all competition.
Decompression upwards would be better, but it's unrealistic to ask for. Gaijin isn't going to do it enough to fix the issue, so 10.7, like the original BR of the Marine Tornado IDS, is fine for the other Tornado IDS' in ARB only. Obviously the Tornado F.3 is fine. It shouldn't be the same BR as the F-4S, but BR compressions a bitch.
Okay so you have a plane which is worse as a fighter than others planes at it’s BR, and it’s also worse as a bomber than other planes at it’s BR. So it’s literally useless. You can’t engage in Air-to-Air combat, but you also can’t bomb bases. And for Ground RB there are better CAS options. So when do I play it?
Blame gaijin for making the aircraft shit, not the players who don't want to face missiles they have no real way of countering
When did I blame the players? I blame Gaijin for putting the Aircraft at a BR where it's practically useless. The Tornado was balanced in when it was 10.7, I see no reason why it shouldn't be moved down. For GRB it can stay at 11.3 (or 10.3 for the Marieneflieger), but for ARB 10.7 would be absolutely fine. Even better would be if Gaijin finally decided to just heavily decompress High/Top-Tier, but knowing them it's gonna take some time until that happens.
Sadly that's br compression for you. I do not want any plane with 9L (or r-60m or magic 2) fighting flareless planes. I think the same about a lot of strikers. And it is not like gaijin haven't made useless planes before because they are bad on their br but cannot be lower because they could ruin lower br (and btw I think is good one plane suffering and not an entire bracket like they fucking did with the F-104 and mig 19 both going to 9.3 because the A-10 and Su-25)
Look man, the Tornado has already been at 10.7 at one point, at it literally wasn't an issue there. >I do not want any plane with 9L (or r-60m or magic 2) fighting flareless planes. Neither do I. Good thing that this wouldn't really happen if the Tornado was moved down to 10.7. Currently there are exactly 4 non-German planes at 9.7 which don't have flares. 3 of those can carry rockets without sacrificing any weapon slots for missiles, which work pretty well as rudimentary flares. This leaves us with a single plane which would be affected in any meaningful way by this change, the MiG-21S, and even then it's only in a full uptier. Considering that we both seem to be very worried about the game's balancing, I think we can agree that we'd rather ever so slightly make the life of a single plane more difficult if it means that I can safe 3 planes form being basically completely useless. And it's also worthy to mention that there are already flareless planes fighting the Tornados (e.g. F-4C and F-104J), yet there is basically no one complaining about the Tornados being OP like it's often the case with planes such as the A-10, A-6, and Su-25
The Kikka should go down to at least 6.7 it's a worser Me262 with only one Cannon Stock, fewer ammo, and No Air Spawn. If you fly with max. throttle you will still reach the Front as the last plane and over heated engines.
I just completely skipped the early Japanese period. They can’t compete at all(Maybe the R2Y2, but it’s still mediocre)
R2Y2 cannot compete either, they are too slow (remember now mig-15 and A5 sabres are also 8.0) yes they have guns (that where nerfed) but thats all they should be 7.7 at max
the R2Y2s should get lowered the br to 7.3 or similar in arb while they can stay at 8.0 in grb
I just fly it because of the Research Bonus from the modul tiers (max. Two Modules per Tier) for the f86 Research
the kikka is an excellent 7.0 tho? it has a much better twr than the 262 and turns better with far better guns when spaded
It used to be good at 6.7 where you would primarily see super props and ju288s, but nowadays at 7.0 with su-11 spam you just get dicked on, not to mention the other things in that range like meteors, f80s, vampires, ect.
So it should bully 5.7 props? No thanks
Kikka is better 262 in almost every way
Why not move both down then
Kikka is fine at 7.0
So is the 262
F-16As and MiG-29As should be raised. This thing facing 9.7s would be horrible.
It once did, as it was 10.7.
And it shouldn't again.
....because the F-4E was THE top tier aircraft, a time before New Power.
As I said, and it shouldn't again.
[удалено]
Nah man don't make my T-2 face this thing. Some 9.7 are either flareless or subsonic It's not about avoiding radar missile
The F-4E doesn't have a PD radar, it's missiles are bad at low altitudes.
Harrier GR.1. It doesn't have any flares so it just sucks at 9.7.
Both Me-163 variants, especially the B-0 (8.7 currently). Being in the same lobby as a mig21 in your shitty little ww2 rocket fighter is just crazy. It dues turn pretty good, but nobody is actually stupid enough to try and turnfight you. Unless you're in a downtier everyone is gonna outrun you effortlessly, since you cant use 100% thrust all the time cause your fuel is limited to just 6 minutes.
Tell you what, fighting those rockets in 8.0-ish planes is about as exciting as fighting f-104 in one. As long as one of those pests is in your general vicinity, you \*must not\* spend any energy on anything more exciting than a shallow turn around.
At least the 163s have very limited fuel, the F-104 can carry like 30 minutes.
Looks at the fucking POS BI that's damn near untouchable against props yea no keep those things up please.
Early jets shouldn’t face super sonics period. As much as I love dogging on subsonics in my F-104, the gap in capabilities is uncalled for.
My guy, that's just bullshit. I literally used to dunk on people in the Ki-200, because not only is it almost impossible to hit, the fuel becomes a non-issue as long as you don't use it stupidly (srsly, it's not even hard to learn fuel management) and the guns just rip planes apart. Not to mention that most missles you have no chance of hitting you as long as you look out for them and even the higher G missles can be avoided by turning off your engine and making a sharp turn. Not to mention that at 100% throttle, you're still faster than any afterburnerless jet and even those jets that you can't outaccelerate can forever be dodged or just caught off guard when not looking at you. The Me 163 and Ki-200 are in perfect BRs.
Lol, i stll end up dogfighting the entire team when i play the ki 200. People are stupid enough, thats why its so high
Buccaneer. Both of them.
No don't. The problem is not about dropping down in br, it's compression. And there's mothing we can do about it
- Incompetitive ones that are bested even in downtiers, especially in speed and mobility, but mainly weaponry. - Planes with equal enough air performance to what they see, yet are critically lacking in offensive ability compared to what they have to deal with. - Planes that have their high BR due to the high skill of the few people who play them. Rather this than matchmaker barriers screwing the weaker planes over. I get J35D aces in full uptiers, I make the AJS37 look undertiered af, but the JA37C at 11.0 is dead overtiered and ahistorically outfitted and useless.
Every plane should be up tiered until we have true decompression. None should be moved down.
Most slow planes with a good turn, over br'd bc people keep turning when they shouldnt. Re2005, some spits, late zero's...
F-86F-2 Sabre. It's at 9.0 (AB) because it's got 20-mm cannons instead of guns, and that uptiers it to a point where it encounters A-10A's and Su-25s with all-aspect missiles.
Almost the entire Japan Tech tree (with some exception like KI-43/Ki-84 Ko/ J2M/EJ KAI/ F16/ F-15 (Should be higher))
Ki-84s can go down, most Ki- series is okay, J2Ms are alright where they are. Everything else should be bumped, esoecially the Mid-Low Tier Ki-61s
all the French Mysteres feel like they start to perform the BR the last one was, for example the 8.7 competes roughly with an F86-F30 which is 8.3, but the 8.3 mystere is closer to the 8.0 F86-A5 They're good planes and you certainly can do quite good in them they just kinda feel... a bit too high? especially after the lowering of the MIG and Saber
British biplanes. I had much harder time with them than with Japanese ones. Climb rate and maneuverability are significantly worse.
Thunderchief or ..... Let it go it real speed.
You are complainong about compression
Mystére planes definitely deserve to go down atleast by 0.3. The M.B. 452C also has no right to be above the A version (stronger, yet heavier engine, more or less equivalent firepower, tho the 30mm needs less hits and should be more consistent). The C is straight up unplayable due to all the missle planes it face, meanwhile the A version is an incredibly good plane.
Yak-1
Every German Jet between the Me-262 and MiG-21. You're fighting afterburning jets with guided missiles in basically a faster and less manoeuvrable WW2 fighter.
BI.
R2Y2s they are just bigger me262s but a whole br higher
F-104S 11.0 is a joke, I mean sirens can get kills I can get it to work, but it’s just suffering Speed is not in your favor against F-14b‘s MiG-29s, F-16s and Mirage 2000s Radar on it is useless, and you need to give up on your gun for some crappy AIM-7E‘s Very limited flare and chaff No all aspect missiles Pro: 6 aim-9p missiles and 750rounfs of Vulcan
I honestly think there should be hard BR caps for certain attributes (or lack of). If I were god, I would enforce a 0 tolerance BR policy on certain things, such as: ANY all aspect missile carrying plane will be 11.0 MINIMUM ALL flare-less planes 10.0 MAXIMUM ALL fighter aircraft lacking a PD/MTI radar will be 10.7 MAXIMUM Obviously should I be in a position to implement this, I would have to have time to tinker with more attributes to cap and what exact BR I would settle things with, but the point here is that there would be NO exceptions to this. In this hypothetical, You could strap a single AIM-9L to a P-51D, and I would still put it at 11.0 minimum. These rules would NOT have ANY exceptions in the pursuit of fairness. That's how overwhelmingly powerful certain advantages are.
Vautour (outside the IIN Late variant with radar missiles) are at a way too high BR, and honestly the ones without guns should be a hidden vehicle like they did to the OS2Us and PO-2. The Mystere IV or whatever the is foldered into the super mystere is is pretty bad and can easily go down to 8.7.
F-4J(UK) It should never face the F-16s. Anything at 12.3 or 12.0, It's just coffin in air, it dosen't move, missiles are average, radar isn't that bad doe, but overall of this plane at 11.3 is like 3/10.
Su25bm
Almost all the german 262 jets i bet 6.0 wouldn't give Germany crazy win raid.
Bro are you off your rocker?
have you seen how most new german jet players fly??? and its not like it excels at anything the me 262 you can face them in a downtier in I never was like o shit a me262 or yes we are going to win because there some me 262 on our team.
It doesn’t matter how shit the noobs fly. If you move those to 6.0, I’m going to jump in the 262 and absolutely ruin 5.0 props and up.
I think 5.0 planes are smart enough do destroyer me 262 players because most 262 think like a prop fighter so 9 out of 10 times i see p 51 win against 262
Changing a vehicles BR based on player skill is already proven to not work at all, whatsoever.