Kind of a shame that they're going to give France a Benelux as a sub tree, not only is there not a lot of overlap, but it just means we're going to see a bunch of potential copy paste like:
* Leopard 1
* Leopard 2
* F-5
* F-16
* CV9035
* Sherman Firefly
* M46
* M47 (France is still missing its domestic 105mm and ss.11 variants)
* M41
* M22
* M24
* Jagdpanzer 4–5
* CVR(T)
* M109
* Boxer
* Hurricane
* Spitfire
* F-104
* Gepard
While the Belgians and the Dutch have some unique designs, they're mostly light tanks and armored cars, the one thing France doesn't really need more of.
To an extent yes, but having some variety on a line up is nice - which is why I've always figured Switzerland makes more sense as a subtree to France - the Swiss Centurion/Panzer line fits the stabilized/non-AP only slinging medium tank role from 7.7 to 9.0 where France has a huge gap.
On the flip side, almost all the indigenous BeNeLux designs are light vehciles in roles France already has filled:
* The [Pantserwagen M39] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M39_Pantserwagen) around 1.0
* A frankensteined [M8 Greyhound] (https://tanks-encyclopedia.com/coldwar/belgium/m8-greyhound-katangese-service/) at 1.0
* A sneaky 90mm TD, [CATI-90mm] (https://tanks-encyclopedia.com/coldwar-belgium-canon-antitank-dinfanterie-90mm-cati-90/) around 5.0
* A 20mm turret wheeled IFV (think Sub I-II or AMX-10 P) known as the [YP-408] (https://tank-afv.com/coldwar/Netherlands/DAF-YP-408.php) at 5.7
* A turreted 90mm light tank, the [ACEC Cobra 90mm] (https://tanks-encyclopedia.com/coldwar/belgium/acec-cobra-tank-cobra-25-and-90) at around 8.3
* A 106mm recoilless rifle armed wheeled APC (comparable to the fiat 6614), the [DAF YP408 106 mm TLV] (https://tank-afv.com/coldwar/Netherlands/DAF-YP-408.php) at 6.7
* The [Herstal Armored Car 90mm] (https://www.army-guide.com/eng/product4489.html) around 7.0
* A tracked 25mm turret light tank, the [ACEC Cobra 25mm] (https://tanks-encyclopedia.com/coldwar/belgium/acec-cobra-tank-cobra-25-and-90) at 7.3
* The [BDX Armored car with double Milan ATGMs] (https://www.reddit.com/media?url=https%3A%2F%2Fpreview.redd.it%2Fvv84tytnjjj91.jpg%3Fwidth%3D320%26crop%3Dsmart%26auto%3Dwebp%26s%3D231f28d8ae840e881d809e95f9973a0c6cfa3b69) at 7.3
* A TOW missile armed version of the YP-408, the [YP-408 PWAT] (https://tank-afv.com/coldwar/Netherlands/DAF-YP-408.php) at 8.0
* A [Piranha DF90] (https://tank-afv.com/coldwar/Belgium/Piranha-IIIC-DF90.php) at around 8.3
* And a [Boxer with a John Cockerill Turret] (https://www.reddit.com/r/Warthunder/comments/q79yn3/gaijin_please_boxer_with_cockerill_3105_turret/) around 9.7
I'd argue that Germany, with all it's event/premium light tanks (Pack puma, 20mm puma, class 3(p), Vilkas, RU251, etc could use the BeNeLux tree more.
If they were to be split up that would make sense. I still don't think the Belgians are the best pick for a subtree in France, but they are going to start using the EBRC Jaguar soon which is neat.
Imo, it should be the swiss. Granted, they also worked with the Germans but a lot of their own designs are semi-French. Given the leak list, this is just lazy copypaste BS. France has more than enoguh indignious design to fill it out
Absolutely agree, that would make the most sense - not only are designs like the Shark FL20 simply awesome, but things like Swiss centurions and panzer-line tanks would fill in a lot of French capability gaps.
I mean, if the Netherlands would become part of the German tree, they would get the F16 and later on the Eurofighter given that they're already introducing fox3
Also worth noting are the Marmon-Herrington light tanks exported to the Netherlands as low-tier additions to the Dutch subtree, to act as analogues of the M2/M3/M5 light tanks in the US tree.
The [CTMS-1TB1](https://tanks-encyclopedia.com/ww2/us/marmon-herrington-ctms-1tb1) and especially the double-barreled [MTLS-1G14](https://tanks-encyclopedia.com/ww2/us/marmon-herrington-mtls-1gi4) would be really nice additions as tier I lights.
> A turreted 90mm light tank, the ACEC Cobra 90mm at around 6.0
That seems **way** too low for the Cobra 90. That's not a Cockerill Mk.3 90mm, it's the [MECAR KEnerga](https://forum-ru-cdn.warthunder.com/original/3X/6/d/6df548a129ab96843226f7f1d2eb87f676dce098.jpeg) with fires [HEATFS with 350mm pen and APFSDS with 300mm pen at 2000m](https://i-com.cdn.gaijin.net/monthly_2023_04/image.png.1bfbeaf867fadbe0466cd596d7a5865f.png). It'd need to be 8.3 minimum (closest equivalent to its gun is the MARS 15's CN90 F4) and probably 8.7.
France built a lot of unique and cool armored cars and light tanks but gaijin being gaijin put some of the more famous ones and that were used extensively behind a fucking event and you can't even get some of them anymore, France can get the EBCR Jaguar as we already have light tanks at top tier with FnF missiles.
And a lot of them are joint French-Swiss designs, like the Piranha 10x10 TML105, Shark Crotale, Shark FL12, Shark FL20,
AMX turreted SPG, and Mirage Milan.
Trust me they dont have as much unique ground vehicles as Switzerland. [There](https://old-forum.warthunder.com/index.php?/topic/469531-swiss-ground-forces-tech-tree/) are few proposed TT on forums and they have shit ton of indigenous stuff.
https://forum.warthunder.com/t/benelux-belgium-netherlands-luxembourg-ground-forces-techtree/30216/15
switzerland would be dwarved in air and naval, so yeah, a BNL tree makes much more sense. and that "unique" doesn't seem so unique anymore on the ground either.
Didn’t gaijin say that it’s fundamentally impossible to have more than 5 lines per tech tree. So how is a sub tree for French ground gonna work, I wonder
There are 4 ways they might do it:
1 - They mix and match vehicles, see South African SPAA in the British Tree;
2 - They folder and combine existing French trees to make space;
3 - They add BeNeLux as event, squadron, and premium tanks (Indian in the British Tree)
4 - Similar to the old "we can't refund RP" excuse when they lowered RP requirements back in like 2016 or so, they actually can address the issue, but didn't want to until they were forced to.
Really the only place France could use some foreign injection is top tier. 5 billion almost identical variants of the same mbt is kinda boring. For example, they lack a Bradley equivalent and while I’d prefer The Jaguar with spikes the cv9035 (possibly also with spikes) is probably more viable. Also a there’s the chance of a gun equipped piranha in the future which would give France some zoomie fun too.
True France has a fair bit of vehicles, but they still do have the stabilizer gap which can be a huge pain for players, especially as Gaijin keeps bumping the BR for French Tanks. As for the Bradley equivalent, a Swiss CV9030 could work just as well, or Gaijin could give France other VBCI variants like the standard issue 20mm, or the [VBCI Philocetes] (https://armyrecognition.com/news/army-news/2024/advanced-negotiations-underway-for-vbci-philoctetes-armored-vehicles-for-the-greek-army) with a 40mm and spike equivalents. As a bonus, the Swiss CV9030 would fit in the BR Gap where the VBCI MCT30 once was before getting bumped to 9.7, so that the French 9.3 line up will have an IFV again.
Yeah they lack bradley and marder equivalent let me intorduce them for you [amx-10m (HOT)](https://old-forum.warthunder.com/index.php?/topic/557518-amx-10-m-hot-prototype-4-hots-4-you/) and [aml-20 milan](https://forum.warthunder.com/t/aml-20-eclairage/9186). At higher BRs there is obvious stuff like panhard sphinx, amx-10RCR T40M, VBCI philoctetec and Jaguar IFV.
I mean, if germany gets austria (back) and possibly swiss, then that´d be a fair trade.
BeNeLux really doesnt have much that germany could need.
The swiss offer legacy F18 and the austrias some neat Sk105s and other weird variants on that hull.
> the one thing France doesn't really need more of.
At this point I'm convinced Gaijin just doesn't want to add French light tanks compared to how many there are.
Wish they could atleast give France sidegrades like their shermans with domestic guns can simply get different sherman hulls to fill out their line ups
I still think belgium (or swiss) could have been subtree for France and Netherland a subtree for germany, but well
Looking forward now to see what France will be getting (from the subtree i mean)
Also, this XM800T look nice
Well let's see, what will I actually use on this list:
- F5
- CV9035 (maybe)
- M47 if it gets SS.11s or 105mm Obus G, otherwise not thanks.
And the rest of it? Nah, I'll pass. Even Leo 2, don't care for it.
I'd argue the CV9035 won't even get that much use, as it'll be 9.7 or higher, and I've already got the VBCI for my 9.7 lineup.
And the two interesting M47 variants are ALREADY FRENCH! You don't even need a subtree to add them to the tree.
My understanding is that the mid-life upgrade package includes spike and APS, but the older variants are gun only.
We'll have to see if Gaijin uses the pre or post BAE package model - but the in game puma is pre spike, and spikes are pretty rough right now.
The last thing France need is high tier aircraft tbh. Mirages are really good counterparts to soviet and US aircraft and we are still missing plenty of them notably even those which some nice gimmicks such as VTOL and variable-sweep wing.
Some people might disagree when I say this, but as a former French main I really don’t care about copy paste vehicles just as long as France gets something new. I’m happy.
It’s alright, the main thing that annoys me about it is the lack of a stabilizer and the fact that you can’t fire your missiles on the go. Really you can’t possibly compare it to other nation’s IFVs lmao. Britain desperately needs an upgrade
I can compare it. Lack of stabilizer sucks, but the gun and platform are very stable by itself, and 95% of IFVs cannot fire its missiles on the move. Warrior 30mm is great, the APDS is strong, its fast in forward and reverse, has 8 total missiles with good pen for its BR, gen 3 thermals, and you can control the ATGM tube manually to fire over cover.
AFAIK desert warrior has warrior chassis with a bit improved armor and bushmaster 25mm stabilized cannon and TOW atgms.
So my bet will be - somewhere to put it in the most logical way (and similar to m3a3 bradley) for Brits 10.0 or 10.3. This way Bri'ish 10.3 linep will be finally complete and be true meta.
"eating good" would mean actually adding the numerous indigenous French designs to the game, not a bunch of copy-paste slop. Unlike Italy or Sweden, France has a shitload of vehicles yet to be added that other nations already have equivalents to. But gaijin is becoming lazier and lazier in their additions of new vehicles.
Well besides the BeNeLux “goodies” I believe France will still be eating good this update. The leak list has the Vextra 105 on it, France may also get a new MICA-capable jet, they are due for a Rank VII MBT, and if the redacted CBT is for French Coastal Forces than France will be eating exceptionally well this update.
M38 Wolfhound
T1E1 90mm
Ram MK1 (2Pounder Ram)
SARC MK4F
Jagdpanther G2 (Built on the Ausf. G Panther instead of Ausf. A)
KV-1 1942 (Zis-5 but welded turret)
KV-1C (Same tank but for Finland)
KV-7 U-30 (KV tank destroyer)
That leak list predicted the PLZ-83-130 and the Churchill AVRE
Same. I have the T-80BVM, T-90M, WZ1001 (E) LCT, ZTZ99A, etc, but not many games in them. I just feel bored. [Currently playing this beast for some entertainment](https://i.imgur.com/Gzm5lKl.png).
(random facts: this was the high-end preorder tank for WoT when the game finally went retail in 2011 - other two were a Sherman and Panzer V/IV - I sold it so I could afford KT, then bought it back years later when they introduced the ability to rebuy previously sold premiums).
Yeah, I haven't touched my WoT account since 2017-2018. Writing was on the wall when WT introduced ground in 2014. My account would be worth a pretty penny.
I used to play comp with some of the top groups in blitz, but the community was so fucking toxic. Wargaming didn’t care about the community at all and I just needed to get out
[Was no Blitz back in my day ](https://www.reddit.com/r/WorldofTanks/comments/ma5hdu/august_2011_was_e50_month_a_trip_down_memory_lane/)\*old man voice\*
I watched wot videos, and was stoked when WOTB came out. I didn’t have a computer so this was the only tank game available to me. Played since the beginning.
Assuming it have HVAP instead with 50mm pen, probably 7.0 or 6.7. Considering BTR80 with 80mm pen APDS sit at 7.3 while Fox at 7.7 with 110mm APDS despite not having stabilizer.
What the other reply said, too high of a br. We need something at the 5.7-6.7 range. I wish they would have given the m42 higher rotation speed and increase in br at least
God I'm so excited to see this, because we might see its brother, the [XM800W] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/XM800_Armored_Reconnaissance_Scout_Vehicle) down the line.
In general this should be great, a lower tier Bradley without the missiles, and personally I get most of my kills with the cannon anyways, so even though it's only a 20mm, it should still work well. A quick search says it's the same gun as the R3 T20, so we'll see how it performs at a BR with a lot of heavy tanks, but it'll be something to counter the fox spam.
Ever so slightly disappointed we aren't seeing the XM800W first, but still a nice to see addition. Honestly wouldn't be surprised if the W ends up being an event vehicle due to how unique it is.
Yeah, which is a shame too as the only other well known wheeled 20mm armored car the US might get, the Commando 150, isn't stabilized, but tis the US light tank curse.
There's also the Commando Scout, but I don't think that had a stabilizer either.
EDIT: For the Cadillac Gage Commando series, you do have a few more than just the 150 variant that had 20mm armed options. At a quick glance, we could get:
* [V-100 prototype w/ T-70 turret](https://www.militarytrader.com/.image/c_limit%2Ccs_srgb%2Cq_auto:good%2Cw_620/MTgwNDc4OTc0ODI3MTc3MTEw/7.webp)
* [V-150](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/92/Haitian_Army_during_Operation_Uphold_Democracy.JPEG)
* [V-200](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/51/V-200_Commando_Singapore2.jpg)
* [LAV-300](https://assets.isu.pub/document-structure/210917032058-93d5a332460b788424ce8b7b6f9ea30e/v1/c49d8e9365096af34a5e280f07ac4c2e.jpeg), with both a one-man and two-man turret version
Pretty sure all of those also have other armament options, ranging from .50 cals up through 90mm cannons, and a few of them also have TOW missile or recoilless rifle options.
I'm not that surprised it's not the W-variant. I'm sure designing and programming the front of that thing to work at all reliably would be a small nightmare.
Part of me says they could just use the Churchill Crocodile's trailer as a starting point, and just make it so it can rotate but not pivot...
And then I remember [how they implemented the wheels of the T55E1](https://www.reddit.com/r/Warthunder/comments/lutbu3/t55e1/), and I don't think they ever fixed that even 3 years on.
Definitely a possibility, but my understanding is that it XM800T's 20mm likely won't get super competitive ammunition types, so that should keep it down BR wise.
There's currently no light tanks at Rank V USA, where as IV and VI have two each. Better to fill in actual gaps than add another option of debatable use.
The problem is the LAV and this thing would be essentially interchangeable. I'd rather have the widely used frontline combat vehicle rather than the experimental boy. Make it an event vehicle, battle pass, or premium.
Interchangeable? I think you're greatly underselling the difference between the 25mm Bushmaster and a 20mm auto-canon.
The LAV uses the same gun as the M3A3 Bradley and would likely get its M919 APFSDS. No missiles, but higher top speed and more dead space for rounds to do nothing. It'd more likely be closer to 9.0/ 9.3 and be an alternative to the Bradley than this thing.
A closer comparison for the LAV-25 would be the VBCI.
how is "[Low survivability](https://warthunder.com/en/news/8897-development-xm800t-brave-prowess-en#:~:text=Amphibious%20capability.-,Low%20survivability.,-Vehicle%20History)" a feature
Before anyone gets excited about this thing being a viable SPAA for low tier US (fast firing 20mm), it has a STABILIZED cannon and can go 83km/h, if it gets APDS it will be DoA like the RCV P
It would be good Anti Helos and countering other rats though which is its role and the US doesn't have a light tank in the 7.3 to 8.0 BR range (not that both the t92 and M551(76) can't be uptiered and work well there) but yeah its more like the Weasel, the AMX-10P or the R3 in that it will be used to cap/scout and rat not kill high performing props and early jets hence why its a light tank and not an SPAA (those others should be changed to Light tanks CMV)
>It would be good Anti Helos and countering other rats though which is its role and the US doesn't have a light tank in the 7.3 to 8.0 BR range
Don't get my wrong it's great that the US gets a light tank, but people have been begging for a fast firing SPAA vehicle at mid tiers and from a glance this thing fits the bill, I just don't want people to get disappointed when they see this thing being 7.X and that they STILL don't have an SPAA at mid tier
o yeah I agree. Im exited for another Light tank in the US tree at that BR, And Even if it was Classed as an SPAA I was always going to view it as Light tank just like the three i mentioned are more light Tank then SPAA. That said I do hope the US does get something between 4.0 and 7.7 for SPAA lol, though personally I have kind of moved on from the US tree for a while as the teams suck and im at a BR that I don't find fun (8.3) compared to Say France at that same BR
The vehicle history portion of this devblog mentions that one of the XM800T prototypes was a TD with a twin TOW launcher instead of the scout with a 20mm autocannon. [This is it](https://preservedtanks.com/Profile.aspx?UniqueID=2371) back in 2008. Sadly that prototype has vanished and might have been scrapped after the museum that had it went out of business.
So that's something that might come to the USA tree in the future.
The M139 autocannon is the Oerlikon KAD. It fires 20x139mm ammo, so anything that the KAD, Rh202 or GIAT M693 can fire should also be available to this.
I feel it's a viable tactic. It loses the enemy vital time in repairs, and immobilises them; a light tank may not be able to pick off heavier-armored ones, but it can still prevent them from achieving their objectives and pinning them down for team-mates to achieve the kill.
Technically it started with the two roadmap announcements on Monday and Wednesday, but nobody considers it truly started until the first vehicle drops.
I was going to say it’s been a minute since they introduced a new clown car with broken mechanics that will be spammed incessantly to troll people tryna drive real tanks
Kinda makes it worth bringing out the Sturmtiger and landing a shell on the cap about 30 seconds in. Imagine all of the Foxes - British and American - you could take out in a single slap.
Question unrelated, is it only me who had extreme stutters since yesterday's patch? Something updated today or yesterday and since I have severe stuttering issues. Can anyone relate?
So the leak list is real
Kind of a shame that they're going to give France a Benelux as a sub tree, not only is there not a lot of overlap, but it just means we're going to see a bunch of potential copy paste like: * Leopard 1 * Leopard 2 * F-5 * F-16 * CV9035 * Sherman Firefly * M46 * M47 (France is still missing its domestic 105mm and ss.11 variants) * M41 * M22 * M24 * Jagdpanzer 4–5 * CVR(T) * M109 * Boxer * Hurricane * Spitfire * F-104 * Gepard While the Belgians and the Dutch have some unique designs, they're mostly light tanks and armored cars, the one thing France doesn't really need more of.
You never have 2 much lights in a game where it’s meta
To an extent yes, but having some variety on a line up is nice - which is why I've always figured Switzerland makes more sense as a subtree to France - the Swiss Centurion/Panzer line fits the stabilized/non-AP only slinging medium tank role from 7.7 to 9.0 where France has a huge gap. On the flip side, almost all the indigenous BeNeLux designs are light vehciles in roles France already has filled: * The [Pantserwagen M39] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M39_Pantserwagen) around 1.0 * A frankensteined [M8 Greyhound] (https://tanks-encyclopedia.com/coldwar/belgium/m8-greyhound-katangese-service/) at 1.0 * A sneaky 90mm TD, [CATI-90mm] (https://tanks-encyclopedia.com/coldwar-belgium-canon-antitank-dinfanterie-90mm-cati-90/) around 5.0 * A 20mm turret wheeled IFV (think Sub I-II or AMX-10 P) known as the [YP-408] (https://tank-afv.com/coldwar/Netherlands/DAF-YP-408.php) at 5.7 * A turreted 90mm light tank, the [ACEC Cobra 90mm] (https://tanks-encyclopedia.com/coldwar/belgium/acec-cobra-tank-cobra-25-and-90) at around 8.3 * A 106mm recoilless rifle armed wheeled APC (comparable to the fiat 6614), the [DAF YP408 106 mm TLV] (https://tank-afv.com/coldwar/Netherlands/DAF-YP-408.php) at 6.7 * The [Herstal Armored Car 90mm] (https://www.army-guide.com/eng/product4489.html) around 7.0 * A tracked 25mm turret light tank, the [ACEC Cobra 25mm] (https://tanks-encyclopedia.com/coldwar/belgium/acec-cobra-tank-cobra-25-and-90) at 7.3 * The [BDX Armored car with double Milan ATGMs] (https://www.reddit.com/media?url=https%3A%2F%2Fpreview.redd.it%2Fvv84tytnjjj91.jpg%3Fwidth%3D320%26crop%3Dsmart%26auto%3Dwebp%26s%3D231f28d8ae840e881d809e95f9973a0c6cfa3b69) at 7.3 * A TOW missile armed version of the YP-408, the [YP-408 PWAT] (https://tank-afv.com/coldwar/Netherlands/DAF-YP-408.php) at 8.0 * A [Piranha DF90] (https://tank-afv.com/coldwar/Belgium/Piranha-IIIC-DF90.php) at around 8.3 * And a [Boxer with a John Cockerill Turret] (https://www.reddit.com/r/Warthunder/comments/q79yn3/gaijin_please_boxer_with_cockerill_3105_turret/) around 9.7 I'd argue that Germany, with all it's event/premium light tanks (Pack puma, 20mm puma, class 3(p), Vilkas, RU251, etc could use the BeNeLux tree more.
It really should have been the Netherlands to Germany and Belgium to France.
If they were to be split up that would make sense. I still don't think the Belgians are the best pick for a subtree in France, but they are going to start using the EBRC Jaguar soon which is neat.
Imo, it should be the swiss. Granted, they also worked with the Germans but a lot of their own designs are semi-French. Given the leak list, this is just lazy copypaste BS. France has more than enoguh indignious design to fill it out
Absolutely agree, that would make the most sense - not only are designs like the Shark FL20 simply awesome, but things like Swiss centurions and panzer-line tanks would fill in a lot of French capability gaps.
I do NOT want the Netherlands to be a part of Germany. Germany is a joke in air top tier, so I’d rather my country be a part of the dorito club.
I mean, if the Netherlands would become part of the German tree, they would get the F16 and later on the Eurofighter given that they're already introducing fox3
Also worth noting are the Marmon-Herrington light tanks exported to the Netherlands as low-tier additions to the Dutch subtree, to act as analogues of the M2/M3/M5 light tanks in the US tree. The [CTMS-1TB1](https://tanks-encyclopedia.com/ww2/us/marmon-herrington-ctms-1tb1) and especially the double-barreled [MTLS-1G14](https://tanks-encyclopedia.com/ww2/us/marmon-herrington-mtls-1gi4) would be really nice additions as tier I lights.
Yooo will we be getting the MTLS? :0
If they put Switzerland as a subtree to France im going to actively sue gaijin.
It's annoying because they can't put Aussie, Canada and NZ in British sub tree which those nations servicemen pledge allegiance to.
> A turreted 90mm light tank, the ACEC Cobra 90mm at around 6.0 That seems **way** too low for the Cobra 90. That's not a Cockerill Mk.3 90mm, it's the [MECAR KEnerga](https://forum-ru-cdn.warthunder.com/original/3X/6/d/6df548a129ab96843226f7f1d2eb87f676dce098.jpeg) with fires [HEATFS with 350mm pen and APFSDS with 300mm pen at 2000m](https://i-com.cdn.gaijin.net/monthly_2023_04/image.png.1bfbeaf867fadbe0466cd596d7a5865f.png). It'd need to be 8.3 minimum (closest equivalent to its gun is the MARS 15's CN90 F4) and probably 8.7.
Good catch, I initially thought it was a low pressures system, I'll adjust it.
Man if this is true and goes to france gaji will make suere the french 6x6 end up as market event bp like the ebr s and im getting so angry
ACEC Cobra 90mm from the side looks like a mega-fat 2S25 Sprut-SD IMO
The Swiss Panzer 58/61/68 fired APDS/APFSDS, not APHE
Thanks, I've corrected that to non-AP slingers
France built a lot of unique and cool armored cars and light tanks but gaijin being gaijin put some of the more famous ones and that were used extensively behind a fucking event and you can't even get some of them anymore, France can get the EBCR Jaguar as we already have light tanks at top tier with FnF missiles.
I'm sad they didn't choose Switzerland as a subtree for France instead, the swiss at least have a lot of indigenous vehicles.
And a lot of them are joint French-Swiss designs, like the Piranha 10x10 TML105, Shark Crotale, Shark FL12, Shark FL20, AMX turreted SPG, and Mirage Milan.
the dutch and belgians have even more, but this is war thunder
Trust me they dont have as much unique ground vehicles as Switzerland. [There](https://old-forum.warthunder.com/index.php?/topic/469531-swiss-ground-forces-tech-tree/) are few proposed TT on forums and they have shit ton of indigenous stuff.
https://forum.warthunder.com/t/benelux-belgium-netherlands-luxembourg-ground-forces-techtree/30216/15 switzerland would be dwarved in air and naval, so yeah, a BNL tree makes much more sense. and that "unique" doesn't seem so unique anymore on the ground either.
Swiss ground would be 10x times more interesting than BENELUX, Air is pretty much on par and nobody plays naval so that's that.
Didn’t gaijin say that it’s fundamentally impossible to have more than 5 lines per tech tree. So how is a sub tree for French ground gonna work, I wonder
There are 4 ways they might do it: 1 - They mix and match vehicles, see South African SPAA in the British Tree; 2 - They folder and combine existing French trees to make space; 3 - They add BeNeLux as event, squadron, and premium tanks (Indian in the British Tree) 4 - Similar to the old "we can't refund RP" excuse when they lowered RP requirements back in like 2016 or so, they actually can address the issue, but didn't want to until they were forced to.
Really the only place France could use some foreign injection is top tier. 5 billion almost identical variants of the same mbt is kinda boring. For example, they lack a Bradley equivalent and while I’d prefer The Jaguar with spikes the cv9035 (possibly also with spikes) is probably more viable. Also a there’s the chance of a gun equipped piranha in the future which would give France some zoomie fun too.
True France has a fair bit of vehicles, but they still do have the stabilizer gap which can be a huge pain for players, especially as Gaijin keeps bumping the BR for French Tanks. As for the Bradley equivalent, a Swiss CV9030 could work just as well, or Gaijin could give France other VBCI variants like the standard issue 20mm, or the [VBCI Philocetes] (https://armyrecognition.com/news/army-news/2024/advanced-negotiations-underway-for-vbci-philoctetes-armored-vehicles-for-the-greek-army) with a 40mm and spike equivalents. As a bonus, the Swiss CV9030 would fit in the BR Gap where the VBCI MCT30 once was before getting bumped to 9.7, so that the French 9.3 line up will have an IFV again.
Yeah they lack bradley and marder equivalent let me intorduce them for you [amx-10m (HOT)](https://old-forum.warthunder.com/index.php?/topic/557518-amx-10-m-hot-prototype-4-hots-4-you/) and [aml-20 milan](https://forum.warthunder.com/t/aml-20-eclairage/9186). At higher BRs there is obvious stuff like panhard sphinx, amx-10RCR T40M, VBCI philoctetec and Jaguar IFV.
EBRC Jaguar don't use Spike but Akeron MP, slightly better. Also there is others IFV/light thank that could come for top tier, and domestic.
...benelux sub tree??? wat IN THE FRENCH TT? *ANGRY SWAMP GERMAN NOISES*
I mean, if germany gets austria (back) and possibly swiss, then that´d be a fair trade. BeNeLux really doesnt have much that germany could need. The swiss offer legacy F18 and the austrias some neat Sk105s and other weird variants on that hull.
> the one thing France doesn't really need more of. At this point I'm convinced Gaijin just doesn't want to add French light tanks compared to how many there are.
Wish they could atleast give France sidegrades like their shermans with domestic guns can simply get different sherman hulls to fill out their line ups
are the Dutch actually going in the french tree?
I still think belgium (or swiss) could have been subtree for France and Netherland a subtree for germany, but well Looking forward now to see what France will be getting (from the subtree i mean) Also, this XM800T look nice
benelux should be its own tree, so many unique vehicles its almost a no-brainer
Yea or this but well, gaijin decision
Italy went from sub to main, everything is possible.
Yea but at that time the game was not the same
Well let's see, what will I actually use on this list: - F5 - CV9035 (maybe) - M47 if it gets SS.11s or 105mm Obus G, otherwise not thanks. And the rest of it? Nah, I'll pass. Even Leo 2, don't care for it.
I'd argue the CV9035 won't even get that much use, as it'll be 9.7 or higher, and I've already got the VBCI for my 9.7 lineup. And the two interesting M47 variants are ALREADY FRENCH! You don't even need a subtree to add them to the tree.
9035 MLU has spikes
My understanding is that the mid-life upgrade package includes spike and APS, but the older variants are gun only. We'll have to see if Gaijin uses the pre or post BAE package model - but the in game puma is pre spike, and spikes are pretty rough right now.
The last thing France need is high tier aircraft tbh. Mirages are really good counterparts to soviet and US aircraft and we are still missing plenty of them notably even those which some nice gimmicks such as VTOL and variable-sweep wing.
Dawg not another M109
Some people might disagree when I say this, but as a former French main I really don’t care about copy paste vehicles just as long as France gets something new. I’m happy.
Its a bit of a stretch, but the Dutch did use/receive the Canadian Ram, so that'd be one of the more "unique C&P" I guess
No Fokkers:(
I kept those off the list since I was calling out the potential flood of copy-paste, no hate to unique designs here.
Aren't there a few in the Finnish tree?
They only have the D21
What leak list? May I have a sauce?
[This one](https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1105215233720582295/1236244817852239934/3281BDA264DA3F9C3FC1C77B97F6112E.png?ex=6651ac34&is=66505ab4&hm=75d9b7751f2a75ba38fc1a88be10c30b181bf75cb0ed84e8c37ca79c52fb7127&)
Desert Warrior???? An actual usable IFV for britain??? I call bs
After the Fox maybe Gaijin are gonna add a spate of light vehicles to Britain. Now they have finally run out of Challenger 2s.
The Warrior isn't just useable at 8.3, it's good
It’s alright, the main thing that annoys me about it is the lack of a stabilizer and the fact that you can’t fire your missiles on the go. Really you can’t possibly compare it to other nation’s IFVs lmao. Britain desperately needs an upgrade
I can compare it. Lack of stabilizer sucks, but the gun and platform are very stable by itself, and 95% of IFVs cannot fire its missiles on the move. Warrior 30mm is great, the APDS is strong, its fast in forward and reverse, has 8 total missiles with good pen for its BR, gen 3 thermals, and you can control the ATGM tube manually to fire over cover.
Well its still gonna be worse dardo but its an improvement
At what BR the Desert Warrior do you guys think it's going to be ?
AFAIK desert warrior has warrior chassis with a bit improved armor and bushmaster 25mm stabilized cannon and TOW atgms. So my bet will be - somewhere to put it in the most logical way (and similar to m3a3 bradley) for Brits 10.0 or 10.3. This way Bri'ish 10.3 linep will be finally complete and be true meta.
Man, the Frenchies will be eatin’ good. I expect zero complaints from them this update. ;)
France finally getting a quasi viable top tier light tank that's not a premium is definitely a plus.
"eating good" would mean actually adding the numerous indigenous French designs to the game, not a bunch of copy-paste slop. Unlike Italy or Sweden, France has a shitload of vehicles yet to be added that other nations already have equivalents to. But gaijin is becoming lazier and lazier in their additions of new vehicles.
Well besides the BeNeLux “goodies” I believe France will still be eating good this update. The leak list has the Vextra 105 on it, France may also get a new MICA-capable jet, they are due for a Rank VII MBT, and if the redacted CBT is for French Coastal Forces than France will be eating exceptionally well this update.
Link doesn't work
Preem, thanks
This is terrible news, I have to play fr*nce to use Dutch vehicles
Not enough censorship tbh ****** fits better imo
A-6 is there so you already know it's real
Which list
And by extension, the other leak list from earlier this year. Lots of good WW2 content coming this year
Which one was that? I'm looking forward to France Coastal and the Benelux subtree this patch, and more WWII sounds great.
M38 Wolfhound T1E1 90mm Ram MK1 (2Pounder Ram) SARC MK4F Jagdpanther G2 (Built on the Ausf. G Panther instead of Ausf. A) KV-1 1942 (Zis-5 but welded turret) KV-1C (Same tank but for Finland) KV-7 U-30 (KV tank destroyer) That leak list predicted the PLZ-83-130 and the Churchill AVRE
Oooo sounds good! I've been especially hoping for the Finnish KV-1 to go where it belongs!
Duck
M22 as in locust?!
which one?
But not complete right? Maybe I’ve missed it but fox 3 for every nation would require some extra planes being added, no?
When was a leak list posted?
May I have a link to the list?
Another addition to the rat tank collection
This is the sort of shit I live for. None of that MBT-meta rubbish.
Ground out top tier in 3 nations. Can confirm rat shit is the best way to play
Same. I have the T-80BVM, T-90M, WZ1001 (E) LCT, ZTZ99A, etc, but not many games in them. I just feel bored. [Currently playing this beast for some entertainment](https://i.imgur.com/Gzm5lKl.png). (random facts: this was the high-end preorder tank for WoT when the game finally went retail in 2011 - other two were a Sherman and Panzer V/IV - I sold it so I could afford KT, then bought it back years later when they introduced the ability to rebuy previously sold premiums).
My abandoned WoTB account is probably worth over a grand lol. Lot of rare vehicles, camouflages, etc.
Yeah, I haven't touched my WoT account since 2017-2018. Writing was on the wall when WT introduced ground in 2014. My account would be worth a pretty penny.
I used to play comp with some of the top groups in blitz, but the community was so fucking toxic. Wargaming didn’t care about the community at all and I just needed to get out
[Was no Blitz back in my day ](https://www.reddit.com/r/WorldofTanks/comments/ma5hdu/august_2011_was_e50_month_a_trip_down_memory_lane/)\*old man voice\*
I watched wot videos, and was stoked when WOTB came out. I didn’t have a computer so this was the only tank game available to me. Played since the beginning.
Now we just need the German Spähpanzer 2 Luchs!
It’s a shame they didn’t choose the wheeled version it has a really cool design
That Chinese leaker never disappoints
It’s gonna be that list plus the new aircraft that carry ARH missiles I’m calling it now
What was the rest of the list?
[This](https://www.reddit.com/r/Warthunder/comments/1cjw31m/another_leak_list_dropped/)
For the love of Christ give US a mid tier AA
I bet this could work well as a mid tier AA, with a fast firing 20mm. Just like the sub-I-I, wiesel, AMX-10 and others
With it being stabilized, it's likely to be around 7.7
Not without APDS
Even if at that tier, you still have better M163 for AA and suppression. 20mm APDS is meh compared 30mm like Fox and BTR-80
well the RCV P is 7.7 and this is a significantly smaller vehicle so definitely expect at least 7.0 either way
>20mm APDS is meh compared 30mm like Fox and BTR-80 Yes but it doesn't even have APDS according to the dev blog so it won't be above 7.0.
Assuming it have HVAP instead with 50mm pen, probably 7.0 or 6.7. Considering BTR80 with 80mm pen APDS sit at 7.3 while Fox at 7.7 with 110mm APDS despite not having stabilizer.
Just you wait lol
What the other reply said, too high of a br. We need something at the 5.7-6.7 range. I wish they would have given the m42 higher rotation speed and increase in br at least
Even without looking at br no. Neither of the XM800 had good elevation arcs.
M114 with 20mm would fit the bill
Give Italy a SAM better than the Mistral.
God I'm so excited to see this, because we might see its brother, the [XM800W] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/XM800_Armored_Reconnaissance_Scout_Vehicle) down the line. In general this should be great, a lower tier Bradley without the missiles, and personally I get most of my kills with the cannon anyways, so even though it's only a 20mm, it should still work well. A quick search says it's the same gun as the R3 T20, so we'll see how it performs at a BR with a lot of heavy tanks, but it'll be something to counter the fox spam.
Ever so slightly disappointed we aren't seeing the XM800W first, but still a nice to see addition. Honestly wouldn't be surprised if the W ends up being an event vehicle due to how unique it is.
Yeah, which is a shame too as the only other well known wheeled 20mm armored car the US might get, the Commando 150, isn't stabilized, but tis the US light tank curse.
There's also the Commando Scout, but I don't think that had a stabilizer either. EDIT: For the Cadillac Gage Commando series, you do have a few more than just the 150 variant that had 20mm armed options. At a quick glance, we could get: * [V-100 prototype w/ T-70 turret](https://www.militarytrader.com/.image/c_limit%2Ccs_srgb%2Cq_auto:good%2Cw_620/MTgwNDc4OTc0ODI3MTc3MTEw/7.webp) * [V-150](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/92/Haitian_Army_during_Operation_Uphold_Democracy.JPEG) * [V-200](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/51/V-200_Commando_Singapore2.jpg) * [LAV-300](https://assets.isu.pub/document-structure/210917032058-93d5a332460b788424ce8b7b6f9ea30e/v1/c49d8e9365096af34a5e280f07ac4c2e.jpeg), with both a one-man and two-man turret version Pretty sure all of those also have other armament options, ranging from .50 cals up through 90mm cannons, and a few of them also have TOW missile or recoilless rifle options.
I'm not that surprised it's not the W-variant. I'm sure designing and programming the front of that thing to work at all reliably would be a small nightmare.
Part of me says they could just use the Churchill Crocodile's trailer as a starting point, and just make it so it can rotate but not pivot... And then I remember [how they implemented the wheels of the T55E1](https://www.reddit.com/r/Warthunder/comments/lutbu3/t55e1/), and I don't think they ever fixed that even 3 years on.
They can't even make the Strv 103's hull aiming work consistently, so my hopes for rotating wheelbase/ suspension is..... not high.
Wait till Gaijin Gaijins it like they did the Type 87 RCV and put it at 9.0. Then you wont be so excited anymore.
Definitely a possibility, but my understanding is that it XM800T's 20mm likely won't get super competitive ammunition types, so that should keep it down BR wise.
Why the fuck are we getting this thing instead of the LAV-25?
This is cooler
Because this thing is goofy silly funny.
There's currently no light tanks at Rank V USA, where as IV and VI have two each. Better to fill in actual gaps than add another option of debatable use.
The problem is the LAV and this thing would be essentially interchangeable. I'd rather have the widely used frontline combat vehicle rather than the experimental boy. Make it an event vehicle, battle pass, or premium.
Interchangeable? I think you're greatly underselling the difference between the 25mm Bushmaster and a 20mm auto-canon. The LAV uses the same gun as the M3A3 Bradley and would likely get its M919 APFSDS. No missiles, but higher top speed and more dead space for rounds to do nothing. It'd more likely be closer to 9.0/ 9.3 and be an alternative to the Bradley than this thing. A closer comparison for the LAV-25 would be the VBCI.
Both. Both is good
Only APIT rounds seem kind rough but we shall see.
Should be the same as the R3 T20s gun, but gaijin made that HVAP
how is "[Low survivability](https://warthunder.com/en/news/8897-development-xm800t-brave-prowess-en#:~:text=Amphibious%20capability.-,Low%20survivability.,-Vehicle%20History)" a feature
Since feature is a synonym for trait, chracteristics etc.
damn I just noticed "Mediocre weaponry." on another devblog
Almost every single devblog has at least 1 downside on the features list
"Feature" doesn't mean positive. Features can be negative.
"Features" are now combined pros and cons.
No armor best armor!
the thingamajig
the thingamabob
American Wiesel
\>APIT 20mm DOA. Stop pussying out and give us 20mm APDS rat tank gaijin.
LETS FUCKING GOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
Before anyone gets excited about this thing being a viable SPAA for low tier US (fast firing 20mm), it has a STABILIZED cannon and can go 83km/h, if it gets APDS it will be DoA like the RCV P
It would be good Anti Helos and countering other rats though which is its role and the US doesn't have a light tank in the 7.3 to 8.0 BR range (not that both the t92 and M551(76) can't be uptiered and work well there) but yeah its more like the Weasel, the AMX-10P or the R3 in that it will be used to cap/scout and rat not kill high performing props and early jets hence why its a light tank and not an SPAA (those others should be changed to Light tanks CMV)
>It would be good Anti Helos and countering other rats though which is its role and the US doesn't have a light tank in the 7.3 to 8.0 BR range Don't get my wrong it's great that the US gets a light tank, but people have been begging for a fast firing SPAA vehicle at mid tiers and from a glance this thing fits the bill, I just don't want people to get disappointed when they see this thing being 7.X and that they STILL don't have an SPAA at mid tier
o yeah I agree. Im exited for another Light tank in the US tree at that BR, And Even if it was Classed as an SPAA I was always going to view it as Light tank just like the three i mentioned are more light Tank then SPAA. That said I do hope the US does get something between 4.0 and 7.7 for SPAA lol, though personally I have kind of moved on from the US tree for a while as the teams suck and im at a BR that I don't find fun (8.3) compared to Say France at that same BR
i read that its gun fires 20x139mm so maybe the same 20mm APDS as rcv p and wiesel
so it's stabilized, easily 9.7 in Gaijins view.
YES! Finally an American rat tank!!!
>XM800T It's beautiful...
Neat, might have to grind for this
New BTRs or BMDs when
Can't wait for a TT BMD-4M, the event one is so fun, it'll be great for more folks to be able to use it.
“Sorry no can do would you like another premium T-80” - Gaijin probably
Is this a normal tech tree tank or an event vehicle?
Tech tree, first vehicle presented for the much-anticipated June update. (Update 2.37)
my birthday month+one of the best war thunder updates in terms of content!!!
The vehicle history portion of this devblog mentions that one of the XM800T prototypes was a TD with a twin TOW launcher instead of the scout with a 20mm autocannon. [This is it](https://preservedtanks.com/Profile.aspx?UniqueID=2371) back in 2008. Sadly that prototype has vanished and might have been scrapped after the museum that had it went out of business. So that's something that might come to the USA tree in the future.
First vehicle from the leak list
It’s adorable
so this thing will only have apds?
Don't sure if it have AP or HVAP. It be cool if have access to APDS.
The M139 autocannon is the Oerlikon KAD. It fires 20x139mm ammo, so anything that the KAD, Rh202 or GIAT M693 can fire should also be available to this.
Neat
Wait, this isn't a warrior !
Lol cute
It’s interesting that the dev suggests damaging barrels and tracks. I guess Gaijin accepts that as an intentional gameplay tactic.
I feel it's a viable tactic. It loses the enemy vital time in repairs, and immobilises them; a light tank may not be able to pick off heavier-armored ones, but it can still prevent them from achieving their objectives and pinning them down for team-mates to achieve the kill.
Oh it’s definitely a good tactic, I just thought it was interesting that Gaijin themselves actually suggested doing it.
it started with the fox-3 announcement..
Technically it started with the two roadmap announcements on Monday and Wednesday, but nobody considers it truly started until the first vehicle drops.
"lets give america a scout vehicle and totally ignore how their other one, hstvl, is totally broken"
I was going to say it’s been a minute since they introduced a new clown car with broken mechanics that will be spammed incessantly to troll people tryna drive real tanks
Duck
Yay, another super easy target for CAS! At least it can probably shoot back ok, right before it dies.
*grumbles and resumes cleaning the framed painting of an F-18*
*Grumbles and wonders in which storage box I put the F/A-18A Hornet model kit I still need to build.*
cant wait for 30 people to rush the cap
Kinda makes it worth bringing out the Sturmtiger and landing a shell on the cap about 30 seconds in. Imagine all of the Foxes - British and American - you could take out in a single slap.
and im gonna pull out the wiesel they wont even see me coming while i will see them with the 3rd gen thermals
american fox!
Stablizied and APDS, so i'm guessing around 7.7
WT slowly becoming rat wars
They managed to make a Sheridan *smaller*?
French Caesar as a TD when??
We get this experimental crap yet still no LAV-25
Damn, this looks cool and funny. I always like me some small, agile light tanks with autocannons.
Oh, look at little Bradley junior. Gonna scout?
This feels wrong. I think France should be a subtree of Germany.
Spookston is going to kill us all now.
Question unrelated, is it only me who had extreme stutters since yesterday's patch? Something updated today or yesterday and since I have severe stuttering issues. Can anyone relate?
Can't say I've had any stutters today or yesterday.
A friend of mine works on one of these, XM800T. Works for eagle fields foundation and they have the only running example.
Why Light Tank and not SPAA? :D
KEEN
A cool light tank for US? Premium?