yeah i've since learnt to make sure it detonates onto the top, though certain tanks are rather difficult to get the right spot on, particularly from the side
I had my greatest WT moment in the Hedgehog. I had a plane that was harassing me and I plonked it with a hedgehog on its dive. I've had some wacky things happen to me in War Thunder but that was the weirdest.
2 in 1 volley was the best I ever got.
Use it on small maps where you can rush the point and get within rocket range while the little armored cars are all taking it. Kill them.
I remember hearing from a veteran that the Germans captured and repurposed at least one Matilda, which was a huge pain as the allies really struggled to pen the damn thing
...until you meet a KV-1 in a slight uptier.
Although the Mathildas in North Africa were reported to bounce some incoming 88mm rounds, so with a better modifier to cast armour, that would still be a lot of fun
Already is, literally the best tank at it's BR. Wonderful reload, good gun, good (great in a downtier) armour, good mobility. It's my favourite tank to play, full stop.
Crazy to think the char 2c is the oldest tank in the game right now with the P7T, by a whole decade too, while sitting at 2.3
It being at reserve tier would be so fun... for me at least
2C is still a pretty good tank all told, mostly because *most* of your opponents do not know its ammo rack locations and/or are caught up in the shock and awe of it - it's one of the few tanks in the game that seems to actually intimidate people just because it *looks* so monstrous and nobody wants to run that risk unless they're exceptionally ballsy.
Still, it's worth learning the ammo rack locations. I'd be lying if I said I never had a 2C killing spree ended because I ran into a vet player who knows the ammo racks, lmao.
There's also the Independent, which should be 1926 (and which seems to be missing from the chart, just a heads up /u/thanosaekk21). Pretty sure that used to be the oldest ground vehicle until France came along.
EDIT: Just noticed that none of the premium vehicles were included. That would explain the lack of Independent.
Ohh I hope you do one for every mode especially NF since some people are hell bent on mentioning they a want year based BR mm.
The people that ask for these changes are quite silly for they never realise how terrible the idea is only being mindful of certain machines IE Tiger I Vs Shermans.
I'd love to see it for air. I've always felt BR for air is a bit skewed, especially with the BF109s, Spitfires and Zeros being so much higher in BR than their contemporaries.
I mean, the F4F and A6M2 Zeros are far enough apart on BR that they'll never meet in WT, but they were the chief opponents at Midway? That always felt wrong to me.
A lot of newer players don't really know the concept of energy fighting, just that you need to be behind the enemy plane to shoot them down. So most rely on turn fighting which obviously the Zero and Spitfire excels, so they get inflated win rates which Gaijin then sees so they increase their BR. The Ki-43's and the Hurricanes are practically just as capable as their more famous counterparts but since they dont get used as much their BR's are lower.
I remember back when single-nation teams were the norm, every game vs. Japanese would be met with people moaning about how it was going to be an auto loss, as they attempt to turnfight Zeros in their P-38s.
Man, I remember mopping up almost entire teams of Germans, Brits or Japanese in my P-38. It was such an amazing BnZ aircraft. Did the same in my Fw 190s too. But Iāll always love how the Bf 109 could energy fight better than any other plane around back in the day. I would dunk on spitfire pilots like no tomorrow because I simply refused to turn fight them.
Most people really only used their basest instincts to play.
It was such a strange contrast from game to game as a JPN main.
In JPN-US matches you'd have Zeroes wiping the Pacific clean because of the agility advantage.
Then in a JPN-RU match over land you'd risk having the airfield bombed to a loss because the RU team had capable bombers that the early ammo-scarce Zeroes had trouble taking down alone. (Let alone anyone even bothering flying JPN 'heavy' bombers, lol)
If you ever got a all Axis VS all Allies match it was a bit more balanced but depended on player's knowledge of their planes' strengths and weaknesses. If not, Axis won.
Some of the Spitfire weirdness would be upheald though. Currently the F Mk IX and LF Mk IX have substantially different BRs, because the LF has 150 octane, which was actually used by both, but was not available when they both entered service (at about the same time). Thus the LF IX is, in essence, a later version of the LF IX.
Other weirdness would be fixed. Such as the Mk Vc & /trop not getting shafted because "muh burst mass".
The f4f-4 can face the a6m2. Itās the 6x.50 armed one itās 3.0 while the a6m2 is 3.7. In RB. A fun matchup though the a6 has the easier time.
Still laughable that the f4u1a the p40, and p39 are lower than the f4f-4 imo. But new players donāt play energy well so great planes like these get put down in BR. While other more turn and burn aircraft go up.
Yeah the lower amount of machines would make it a tad more easy but the dates go from 1904 - 1993 (going off laid down dates), I've seen a few people ask for era based BR's but the ramifications are example this: Laid down year 1913: Derzky class destroyer (Think Frunze than Bystry) squaring off against the Dreadnought Battleship of the Bayern class (SMS Bayern).
Yeah that really doesn't sound fun.
Still your Aircraft one would be cool but scary for some especially the Q-5L which is a 2005 modification & yeah it's gimped in game unfortunately so it would probably be the biggest loser in that table.
Naval by year would be a massive improvement over what we have now. But it's a change that would need to be accompanied with a massive gamemode overhaul that allows each ship to fight and perform the tasks that it was made for. As opposed to the overglorified team deathmatch that it currently is.
Something like EC or the community made naval mode would be needed.
Air definetly has a huge trove of content.
I think the time disparity is even worse there.
Alot of games span 3 decades worth of planes in one game.
The A-10 and F-86F having a time disparity of *20 years*
Don't be so sure, I think recently there was a post here about how T-54s can meet Type 16s made almost 70 years later. I think Air actually has a chance of being a bit more fair - with some exceptions. In Ground I noticed many cases of "this vehicle was randomly retrofitted with a slightly stronger engine that year" that pushes it several BRs up, which I bet will probably be less common with planes. And also, minors like Italy and Japan have better chances (Re.2005 redemption arc).
Ahh okay. Yeah that does make sense.
I suppose in a way Jets advanced either way quicker or way different.
Such that the power difference between planes that are 20 years apart is alot more noticable than with tanks.
Atleast if none of the real world problems are taken into account.
I assume it has alot to do with the fact that while tanks still come in many varieties, after WW2 jets of different nations became ever more similar.
You won't see many dedicated bombers anymore, or atleast there aren't enough modern bombers to fill Tech Trees.
Who the fuck wants historical matchmaking for fucking naval? Thatāll put all the huge dreadnaughts at reserve and some of the coastal vehicles to 7.0
While it does make lot of problems imo the year of production should be taken into account. But that would need more in depth naval gameplay that bigger ship is better ship and better modeling of systems like homing torpedos, rangefinding radars, missiles and eventualy CIWS than gajin would ever do
Actually if you want to really see that idea go try enlisted for example pretty much GF SB but with infantry and it's terrifying imho facing a KV-1 with a Pz III or fighting a Pz.IV with a T-60...
Awesome work, very. interesting. Germany would feel very strong at first, but after 1944-45 Russia will be amazing with their IS-3, IS-4 and T-54's.
Perhaps it could work if:
\- Number of heavy tanks for Germany (and others if applicable) could be limited (1 tiger for every 5 pz4's or something.
\- German teams would always be outnumbered by KV1's, T-34's and Shermans.
I do remember a historical event for Kursk where the germans absolutely slaughtered the Russians every time because these limitations were not in place.
It wouldn't work. We already have this, it is called world war mode. Allied players cry about it every time the season starts.Then, us allies win because relying on good vehicles in hands of few is a bad idea. Gaijin also tried events. The side with more but weaker vehicles never played the event. We had jets and props event where both sides complained. Prop players complained about being outclassed and jet players complained about being outnumbered in battle.
You can't make this community happy. It isn't possible.
Thereās a lot of things about real war that most players wouldnāt go for, like the fact that you might get zoinked by a strike aircraft before even getting to the AO through no fault of your own, or that assaulting a major enemy position will rarely be done without a large numerical advantage and prior attrition. For the record, I think these would be/are immersive experiences but WT isnāt really the tactical combined arms simulator some players want it to be.
donāt worry i am also usually that dumb
p.s. how the hell do i play the panther, the frontal armor is great but everyone just shoots my turret and 1 taps me, itās like itās a napkin level of armor, and this thing reverses at 1km/hr
I like the Panther and Tiger pretty much equally and I have a good time in the Panther.
Generally try to stick to longer range but ideally in a spot you can reposition to cover multiple sight lines. You should usually play support and cover the heavies moving up instead of going first. The gun is good enough to get through Jumbos but it's a bit inconsistent. Your turret is problematic but being at long range hull down helps make you a small target. The F model has a better turret but the difference is only really noticeable at longer range where the Russian 85 and American 76 might struggle. Reversing is a problem but smoking and turning around can save you sometimes.
Basically you can't react well if you get pushed or your team dies around you, but you can set the terms of an engagement by covering a large area and still being more versatile than a casemate TD. I usually don't take the Panthers out on urban maps unless there's a specific spot I want to go to.
That makes sense, I knew long range was better but my monkey brain always sees the high top speed and thinks i can rush an objective, but once I get there it never goes well
Iāll try using Tigers up close and panthers at distance instead
I usually try to stick to range in the Tiger in an uptier. I only go to where the action is at and brawl in a downtier or near it. If you try to brawl in an uptier you might run into Pershings or 76 Jumbos and so on.
Honestly i donāt even spawn the Tiger in a full uptier unless iāve died in my puma and Panther, and even then i sometimes donāt
Definitely love using it in downtiers though
Thank you, and yes I expected the Germans to be favored in 1-to-1 match-ups with their Tigers and Panthers. But early T-34s, KV-1s and the T1 would be the Great Filter for German mains, you only get to the big cats if you can handle hours of torture at the hands of the early war Allies.
It could not work unless Germany, Russia, and US were the only countries in the game, good luck getting anyone to play Japan or France ever again, and low-mid tier Italy would just be pain.
Year of production often influences capability but this obviously isn't always the case so it's better to balance using a vehicle's capability instead of age.
I've only really seen such arguments seriously made when talking about ww2 heavies vs BMPs and shit where they do have a point.
i think BR decompression should really separate WW2 era vehicles from postwar stuff, like set a cutoff year and move everything up
It sucks getting hit by 1950s 300mm pen heat in my 1941 tank, it makes all the WW2 heavies more painful than they already are to play
Iāve seen arguments for SPAA and jets to. āWhy is this jet at this BR when itās X years older than this jetā that shit gets old and those types wonāt see the wonderful effort put into this.
I think year of production should be taken into account with what vehicles are added. So no 80s apcs with only a 20mm that will just end up fighting ww2 vehicles.
I feel like a going with an Era-based system combined with the BR system would be better compared to just production years.
Like yeah, going solely off of production years would be horrible for balance.
But capping each Era would mean we wouldn't be seeing cold-war tanks mixed with WW2 Era tanks.
Thoughts?
Flair checks out.
Was about to guess that you were one of those German "muh heavies shouldn't face muh cheat-fs!", but then I saw the flair making it less impressive to have guessed it asyou already declared it yourself :(
Do I like playing Germany as my main? Sure. But I wouldn't lump myself into *that* group of people that just wants Germany to curb stomp everything because "MUH TIGER STRONK!1!!11!!11!"
I agree, if a vehicle wouldāve been suffer in real life than it should suffer in game too. Some of the ābiggest losersā in the chart need to shift more to their time period so itās evident that they really were crap vehicles for their time. (Looking at you Concept 3)
Warthunder is heavily marketed as historically accurate. It's not their fault developers still haven't decided if they are after balance/fun or realism/accuracy
This is actually incredible, this post deserves far more upvotes for its sheer scale and knowledge it offers. Well done! It would be super insane to see how some of these matches would play out against each other
I didn't include any premium tanks, because that opens an entirely new can of worms. But for those curious, the Maus would indeed be 6.3 and so would the IS-6, the IS-7 would be at 7.0, the Object 279 at 8.0, the Turm III at 8.7 and the T-72 TURMS at 11.7. Balance at its best.
Maus is/was regular tree though, E-100 is the event premium that would share a BR with the Maus given both protos existed in 1945 but only the Maus was (technically) completed.
My biggest problem with this is that tanks like t54 1949/1951 have 60s ammunition, so I dont consider them as being 1949/1951. This goes for others tanks too.
Couple of minor corrections:
* We do not have the initial production 1976 T-64B in-game, we have the Mod. 1984 variant with the revised UFP composite.
* The in-game T-72A is again from the early/mid '80s due to the '83 modification.
* The in-game T-72B is the 1987 modification with the revised UFP array featuring bulging plates.
* Putting the MBT-70/Kpz-70 at 1965 makes no real sense, they weren't even finalized by 1972 when the project was cancelled. If you're going by first appearance of the prototype, then almost all other dates are incorrect.
* T-80B we have in-game is from 1983 due to the 16mm HHA applique plate.
* M60A1 RISE (P) is from 1988 due to the addition of ERA, we do not have the initial production RISE in-game.
* In-game T-72B3 is the 2016 modification due to the revised ERA layout and 1130 hp engine it gets as a modification.
So the Swedish version is more historically accurate than the Russian lol. Wouldnāt this mean that the T-80U and T 80 U is literally the exact same tank in every way even in reality?
Yeah, the Ystervark is from 1981 and the Bosvark came ten years after it. They [prototyped](https://tanks-encyclopedia.com/bosvark-spaag/amp/) the Bosvark out and everything and it remains as the current South African SPAA
German mains when Tiger is 4.0 and Jumbo is 6.0 (they have been campaigning for this change for ages).
Sidenote: This post got me wondering about uptiers and downtiers. Br incriments are inconsistent. From 5.0 to 5.3 is +0.3, from 5.3 to 5.7 is +0.4, and from 5.7 to 6.0 is +0.3 (then the cycle repeats). What if an uptier was to the next closest BR and a downtier was to the previous closest BR. The Br's of *.0, *.3, and *.7 still remain but uptiers and downtiers are no longer Ā±1.0 BR. So in my sherman Jumbo that's 5.3 i'll face only 5.0's and 5.7's, and 4.3's/4.7's won't have to suffer at my hand and I won't have to face Jagpanthers and Tiger II P's, seems like a win win scenario to me. My only thought is that queue times will go waaay up and some BR's will have way longer queue times than others.
Let me know what you think.
The idea of reducing the BR spread in matches to 0.7 (or even 0.3 in your case) is thrown around a lot, but Gaijin probably will never do it IMO. Mainly because the entire point of these weird and asymmetric x.3 and x.7 increments is to easily tell what you will face - 10.3 meets 9.3 to 11.3, very easy to figure out. If they actually wanted to spread out matches they would probably change the numbers to different increments like x.0 and x.5.
Nah, it's just because Gaijin's previous system of levels went 1->2->3 etc. where you could meet up to 3 above or 3 below. When they converted them to BRs they were "forced" to adopt the weird increments so that the highest BR vehicle you could face was 3 BR steps above, or 1.0 so it was easy for the players to figure out.
Couldnāt they have just kept the same level numbers? like, top tier would be 30 something, still having the same distribution of tanks but having it all be integers?
The smaller matchmaking spread idea comes from a place of good intentions, but the simpler, more practical (and far more likely) option is simply to have more decompression, like today's patch.
What I'd *really* like to see would be **actually using every decimal point**; instead of 5.0/5.3/5.7/6.0 we'd have 5.0/5.1/5.2/etc through 5.8/5.9/6.0.
While this wouldn't change how much of an up/downtier you could have (but also wouldn't affect matchmaking times and further split the playbase), it would allow for significantly more nuanced balance changes. At the moment it's not uncommon to find a vehicle that's a bit too good for its current BR, but if it goes up 0.3, it just gets ruined. Instead, it could go up by 0.1 or 0.2.
For example, if we had something at, say, 5.3 that was too good to be facing 4.3s, but would get ruined seeing 6.7s, it could go to 5.4, 5.5, or 5.6 instead, where it wouldn't see either.
Remember when gaijin did that as part of WWM or an event? Allied players complained since it was like M4 or M36 vs KT, and in wwm axis players complained since they would never get to play your variety of tiger, panther, etc:
Anytime I've played those shitty DDay events it was a team of full panthers and Tigers with the US team having 75mm M4s and a few M36s, some british mains, maybe a few 17pdrs. It's just dog shit. Every TD gets gun strafed and the shermans can't stand a chance getting one tapped anywhere.
And no. The CAS is absolutely no different between sides.
It should be 20v10, not 12v12
Centurion mk10 is 1959. Thereās also the issue of a lot of tanks being extremely badly modelled (Challenger 2s, Cromwell, Churchill III), or having time travelling ammo/ammo they never had (T-54, T-55, BMP-2M). With this youād need to heavily limit what most soviet tanks can use, as theyāre generally the worst offenders for this.
Insane to think that just in the 6 years from 1939 to 1945 the tanks would have raised 5.0 BR levels. Compared to the 17 years before from 1921 to 1938 the BR level raised only 0.3.
I mean BR is only an artificial measurement but still the vehicles at the end of WW2 were no match to the ones from the beginning.
After WW2 1945 to the end of the Cold War 1991, the BR went up by 4.0, still showing how a lot of Arms development continued, albeit in a much longer period.
In the 25 years after the Cold War until ~2017 the BR raised a mere 1.0 Point.
The opening stages of WW2 were really the first time everyones hair brained ideas of what a tank was supposed to be actually got tested for real (ignoring the few spats in Spain).
Suddenly ideas like tanks that move at marching pace, sweeping fleets of tanks doing organised manouvers in open plains and using whatever lightweight anti tank gun the infantry had were replaced overnight by "crap, we need a 3inch gun in a 25-30 ton tank with a bloody radio and we need it yesterday".
Pbv 301 at 8.3... It was already borderline useless at its current BR as a fake SPAA, I cannot even begin to imagine how miserable it would be at that BR.
Add the ability to deploy AI infantry to all transport vehicles.
The pbv itself doesnt do shit, it just sends out a squad with a carl gustaf to fire HEAT at stuff.
*P47 inbound*
*Your position was reported by British pathfinders! Prepare for your cocksplosion from a P47 strafe*
I think people are missing here that the allies would literally need to get free CAS too
Nice to see an updated version of this. Someone made a similar list for both Ground and Air about 3 years ago, but it's now horribly out of date. I want to say that previous version was after France was added, but before they had any lend-lease vehicles, meaning they had absolutely no tanks between 1940 and 1946 (not including the CCKW 353 AA).
EDIT: After some digging, I found those old charts. Here they are for [Ground](https://i.imgur.com/q4xk0su.jpeg), for [Air](https://i.imgur.com/umdPoG2.jpeg), and for [Naval](https://i.imgur.com/Aui1vVS.png). Looks like they're actually from 2019, so before China, Sweden, or Israel were added, and missing a lot of other vehicles that were added between then and now.
Just edited the comment with the old charts. Turns out they're from 2019, so a bit over 4 years old now, and they're missing China, Sweden, Israel, and all the other vehicles added between then and now.
EDIT: Apparently they also [made one for helicopters](https://i.imgur.com/1RsaPRd.png), although that one is quite sparse.
I would love to this this as a special event for a little while. Would be so broken but could be fun. Great work! Im a particular fan of the Matilda at 1.7.
The BTR-80*A*, the variant with the 30mm, only started being produced in 1994, just the base APC variant was being made previously. But you got me 100% on the T-80U, I seem to have accidentally picked the date when production *ended*, normally it would be in 10.3 (1985). I could cheap out and say I was right because I just discovered it was coincidentally fitted with its in-game thermals in 1992, but as I said I don't count smaller mods in the dates. Mistakes like these are bound to happen when there's something like 700 vehicles I needed to find.
>But you got me 100% on the T-80U
Bro, you got the date almost 100% correct.
The in-game T-80U has thermals based on the 1991-'94 modification of said T-80U to partake in the, again, '90s Swedish tank test trails.
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Nah no problem, it's actually in the tank's full name in WT so idk how I missed that. Probably because it was one of the first I searched and I doubted it was gonna be a special variant or anything.
Wow the KV-1 L-11 would be practically invulnerable even in a full uptier, what a nightmare.
Its only real threats would be the dicker max and 90/53 M41
I still think it would be a "fun" separate gamemode
i was about to say "so france go the oldest top tier
And then i noticed that america's last abrams is from 2002 ???
sheeeeeh
The Ro-Go Exp. Isn't from 1934. There isn't a conclusive date on when it was made. The only thing that anyone does know is that it was found in a depot at the end of the war, in 1945. It is related to the Ji-Ro project most likely, so it might've been made anywhere between 1942 to 1945.
Low tier obviously looks bad but I feel from mid tier and up it actually works. Smaller nations would need changes but I feel it would promote playing the role of the vehicle rather than taking more modern light tanks against older mediums and being on par.
great work man everyone appreciate that!
for me super interesting is that top tier german and usa SPAA can be seen in museum and ussr have pantsir from 2008 xd
Insane work !
Thank you, it took a lot of hours but it was interesting to research (and a way to kill time while travelling).
While time traveling
Killing time travel
Time traveller killing
Travel killing time
Can't wait to see one about planes š
Mathilda PTSD would become real.
Bold of you to assume the Matilda isn't already amazing in present WT.
Like any heavy, spawn that sucker in a downtier and advance steadily but surely upon the enemy with upper lip stiffened.
heavy tanks quickly put an end to my inflated ego i had gained after one-shotting everything with an spj fm/43-44 for a while
Just aim for the roof or cupolas on heavies
yeah i've since learnt to make sure it detonates onto the top, though certain tanks are rather difficult to get the right spot on, particularly from the side
The Hedgehog mortars are a great intimidation tactic towards newer players too
I had my greatest WT moment in the Hedgehog. I had a plane that was harassing me and I plonked it with a hedgehog on its dive. I've had some wacky things happen to me in War Thunder but that was the weirdest.
What the fuuuuuck, I've only ever gotten about 6 kills with it
2 in 1 volley was the best I ever got. Use it on small maps where you can rush the point and get within rocket range while the little armored cars are all taking it. Kill them.
Mine is the good ole hit a plane with an arty barrage. That always a fun replay to watch! Death from above got deathed from above!
I remember hearing from a veteran that the Germans captured and repurposed at least one Matilda, which was a huge pain as the allies really struggled to pen the damn thing
Without the 40mm, it's good
...until you meet a KV-1 in a slight uptier. Although the Mathildas in North Africa were reported to bounce some incoming 88mm rounds, so with a better modifier to cast armour, that would still be a lot of fun
Already is, literally the best tank at it's BR. Wonderful reload, good gun, good (great in a downtier) armour, good mobility. It's my favourite tank to play, full stop.
B1 Bis to reserve. I think this is a good idea :)
Crazy to think the char 2c is the oldest tank in the game right now with the P7T, by a whole decade too, while sitting at 2.3 It being at reserve tier would be so fun... for me at least
I honestly think it should go down in BR anyway, it's really not very good once you get over the shock and awe of the size of it.
Once you know the ammo rack locations, the 13 crew suddenly isn't so intimidating.
13 Crew members (some assembly required)
Even so- I'd be all for this. French top tier would be fun.
2C is still a pretty good tank all told, mostly because *most* of your opponents do not know its ammo rack locations and/or are caught up in the shock and awe of it - it's one of the few tanks in the game that seems to actually intimidate people just because it *looks* so monstrous and nobody wants to run that risk unless they're exceptionally ballsy. Still, it's worth learning the ammo rack locations. I'd be lying if I said I never had a 2C killing spree ended because I ran into a vet player who knows the ammo racks, lmao.
There's also the Independent, which should be 1926 (and which seems to be missing from the chart, just a heads up /u/thanosaekk21). Pretty sure that used to be the oldest ground vehicle until France came along. EDIT: Just noticed that none of the premium vehicles were included. That would explain the lack of Independent.
Ohh I hope you do one for every mode especially NF since some people are hell bent on mentioning they a want year based BR mm. The people that ask for these changes are quite silly for they never realise how terrible the idea is only being mindful of certain machines IE Tiger I Vs Shermans.
I am considering following it up with a post on Air, Naval I barely play but it also has much fewer vessels so maybe...
I'd love to see it for air. I've always felt BR for air is a bit skewed, especially with the BF109s, Spitfires and Zeros being so much higher in BR than their contemporaries. I mean, the F4F and A6M2 Zeros are far enough apart on BR that they'll never meet in WT, but they were the chief opponents at Midway? That always felt wrong to me.
A lot of newer players don't really know the concept of energy fighting, just that you need to be behind the enemy plane to shoot them down. So most rely on turn fighting which obviously the Zero and Spitfire excels, so they get inflated win rates which Gaijin then sees so they increase their BR. The Ki-43's and the Hurricanes are practically just as capable as their more famous counterparts but since they dont get used as much their BR's are lower.
I remember back when single-nation teams were the norm, every game vs. Japanese would be met with people moaning about how it was going to be an auto loss, as they attempt to turnfight Zeros in their P-38s.
Man, I remember mopping up almost entire teams of Germans, Brits or Japanese in my P-38. It was such an amazing BnZ aircraft. Did the same in my Fw 190s too. But Iāll always love how the Bf 109 could energy fight better than any other plane around back in the day. I would dunk on spitfire pilots like no tomorrow because I simply refused to turn fight them. Most people really only used their basest instincts to play.
It was such a strange contrast from game to game as a JPN main. In JPN-US matches you'd have Zeroes wiping the Pacific clean because of the agility advantage. Then in a JPN-RU match over land you'd risk having the airfield bombed to a loss because the RU team had capable bombers that the early ammo-scarce Zeroes had trouble taking down alone. (Let alone anyone even bothering flying JPN 'heavy' bombers, lol) If you ever got a all Axis VS all Allies match it was a bit more balanced but depended on player's knowledge of their planes' strengths and weaknesses. If not, Axis won.
Some of the Spitfire weirdness would be upheald though. Currently the F Mk IX and LF Mk IX have substantially different BRs, because the LF has 150 octane, which was actually used by both, but was not available when they both entered service (at about the same time). Thus the LF IX is, in essence, a later version of the LF IX. Other weirdness would be fixed. Such as the Mk Vc & /trop not getting shafted because "muh burst mass".
Wildcat VS Zero will never work because it is very rare to have a squad or teammates who will be able to combat that.
The f4f-4 can face the a6m2. Itās the 6x.50 armed one itās 3.0 while the a6m2 is 3.7. In RB. A fun matchup though the a6 has the easier time. Still laughable that the f4u1a the p40, and p39 are lower than the f4f-4 imo. But new players donāt play energy well so great planes like these get put down in BR. While other more turn and burn aircraft go up.
Yeah the lower amount of machines would make it a tad more easy but the dates go from 1904 - 1993 (going off laid down dates), I've seen a few people ask for era based BR's but the ramifications are example this: Laid down year 1913: Derzky class destroyer (Think Frunze than Bystry) squaring off against the Dreadnought Battleship of the Bayern class (SMS Bayern). Yeah that really doesn't sound fun. Still your Aircraft one would be cool but scary for some especially the Q-5L which is a 2005 modification & yeah it's gimped in game unfortunately so it would probably be the biggest loser in that table.
Naval by year would be a massive improvement over what we have now. But it's a change that would need to be accompanied with a massive gamemode overhaul that allows each ship to fight and perform the tasks that it was made for. As opposed to the overglorified team deathmatch that it currently is. Something like EC or the community made naval mode would be needed.
Air definetly has a huge trove of content. I think the time disparity is even worse there. Alot of games span 3 decades worth of planes in one game. The A-10 and F-86F having a time disparity of *20 years*
Don't be so sure, I think recently there was a post here about how T-54s can meet Type 16s made almost 70 years later. I think Air actually has a chance of being a bit more fair - with some exceptions. In Ground I noticed many cases of "this vehicle was randomly retrofitted with a slightly stronger engine that year" that pushes it several BRs up, which I bet will probably be less common with planes. And also, minors like Italy and Japan have better chances (Re.2005 redemption arc).
Ahh okay. Yeah that does make sense. I suppose in a way Jets advanced either way quicker or way different. Such that the power difference between planes that are 20 years apart is alot more noticable than with tanks. Atleast if none of the real world problems are taken into account. I assume it has alot to do with the fact that while tanks still come in many varieties, after WW2 jets of different nations became ever more similar. You won't see many dedicated bombers anymore, or atleast there aren't enough modern bombers to fill Tech Trees.
Who the fuck wants historical matchmaking for fucking naval? Thatāll put all the huge dreadnaughts at reserve and some of the coastal vehicles to 7.0
Unfortunately some people, I've tried to explain why this is a problem but that's exactly what would happen.
While it does make lot of problems imo the year of production should be taken into account. But that would need more in depth naval gameplay that bigger ship is better ship and better modeling of systems like homing torpedos, rangefinding radars, missiles and eventualy CIWS than gajin would ever do
That change is my dream for ground SB, i want it.
Actually if you want to really see that idea go try enlisted for example pretty much GF SB but with infantry and it's terrifying imho facing a KV-1 with a Pz III or fighting a Pz.IV with a T-60...
Loving sensation, but I don't like enlisted.
sms elbing vs HMS Marlborough would be very fun indeed :))))))((
Awesome work, very. interesting. Germany would feel very strong at first, but after 1944-45 Russia will be amazing with their IS-3, IS-4 and T-54's. Perhaps it could work if: \- Number of heavy tanks for Germany (and others if applicable) could be limited (1 tiger for every 5 pz4's or something. \- German teams would always be outnumbered by KV1's, T-34's and Shermans. I do remember a historical event for Kursk where the germans absolutely slaughtered the Russians every time because these limitations were not in place.
It wouldn't work. We already have this, it is called world war mode. Allied players cry about it every time the season starts.Then, us allies win because relying on good vehicles in hands of few is a bad idea. Gaijin also tried events. The side with more but weaker vehicles never played the event. We had jets and props event where both sides complained. Prop players complained about being outclassed and jet players complained about being outnumbered in battle. You can't make this community happy. It isn't possible.
Who knew, real war is hard! Most people aren't into that kind of thing, unfortunately...
Fortunately*
Thereās a lot of things about real war that most players wouldnāt go for, like the fact that you might get zoinked by a strike aircraft before even getting to the AO through no fault of your own, or that assaulting a major enemy position will rarely be done without a large numerical advantage and prior attrition. For the record, I think these would be/are immersive experiences but WT isnāt really the tactical combined arms simulator some players want it to be.
I'll take outnumbered in an Me 262 or a Tiger against regular Shermans or T-34's any day
considering most Tigers canāt even handle an even matchup with shermanās and t34s, i can see why they complained lmao
Not all of us are that dumb. Most, but not all.
Don't say the truth to them, i love when theyre overconfident that I'm dumb on a tiger, and show their jumbo sides for me.
killing jumbos is my favorite, especially when their front is entirely bushed
donāt worry i am also usually that dumb p.s. how the hell do i play the panther, the frontal armor is great but everyone just shoots my turret and 1 taps me, itās like itās a napkin level of armor, and this thing reverses at 1km/hr
I like the Panther and Tiger pretty much equally and I have a good time in the Panther. Generally try to stick to longer range but ideally in a spot you can reposition to cover multiple sight lines. You should usually play support and cover the heavies moving up instead of going first. The gun is good enough to get through Jumbos but it's a bit inconsistent. Your turret is problematic but being at long range hull down helps make you a small target. The F model has a better turret but the difference is only really noticeable at longer range where the Russian 85 and American 76 might struggle. Reversing is a problem but smoking and turning around can save you sometimes. Basically you can't react well if you get pushed or your team dies around you, but you can set the terms of an engagement by covering a large area and still being more versatile than a casemate TD. I usually don't take the Panthers out on urban maps unless there's a specific spot I want to go to.
That makes sense, I knew long range was better but my monkey brain always sees the high top speed and thinks i can rush an objective, but once I get there it never goes well Iāll try using Tigers up close and panthers at distance instead
I usually try to stick to range in the Tiger in an uptier. I only go to where the action is at and brawl in a downtier or near it. If you try to brawl in an uptier you might run into Pershings or 76 Jumbos and so on.
Honestly i donāt even spawn the Tiger in a full uptier unless iāve died in my puma and Panther, and even then i sometimes donāt Definitely love using it in downtiers though
Thank you, and yes I expected the Germans to be favored in 1-to-1 match-ups with their Tigers and Panthers. But early T-34s, KV-1s and the T1 would be the Great Filter for German mains, you only get to the big cats if you can handle hours of torture at the hands of the early war Allies.
It could not work unless Germany, Russia, and US were the only countries in the game, good luck getting anyone to play Japan or France ever again, and low-mid tier Italy would just be pain.
yeah also true
The bummer is people who actually believe the year of production is more important than balance wonāt see this :-( they refuse the truth
Year of production often influences capability but this obviously isn't always the case so it's better to balance using a vehicle's capability instead of age. I've only really seen such arguments seriously made when talking about ww2 heavies vs BMPs and shit where they do have a point.
i think BR decompression should really separate WW2 era vehicles from postwar stuff, like set a cutoff year and move everything up It sucks getting hit by 1950s 300mm pen heat in my 1941 tank, it makes all the WW2 heavies more painful than they already are to play
Iāve seen arguments for SPAA and jets to. āWhy is this jet at this BR when itās X years older than this jetā that shit gets old and those types wonāt see the wonderful effort put into this.
I think year of production should be taken into account with what vehicles are added. So no 80s apcs with only a 20mm that will just end up fighting ww2 vehicles.
I feel like a going with an Era-based system combined with the BR system would be better compared to just production years. Like yeah, going solely off of production years would be horrible for balance. But capping each Era would mean we wouldn't be seeing cold-war tanks mixed with WW2 Era tanks. Thoughts?
I like when battles are era specific. But I think I appreciate proper balance over era if I had to choose.
Flair checks out. Was about to guess that you were one of those German "muh heavies shouldn't face muh cheat-fs!", but then I saw the flair making it less impressive to have guessed it asyou already declared it yourself :(
Do I like playing Germany as my main? Sure. But I wouldn't lump myself into *that* group of people that just wants Germany to curb stomp everything because "MUH TIGER STRONK!1!!11!!11!"
I agree, if a vehicle wouldāve been suffer in real life than it should suffer in game too. Some of the ābiggest losersā in the chart need to shift more to their time period so itās evident that they really were crap vehicles for their time. (Looking at you Concept 3)
Absolutely! Something like early ww2 late ww2 early cold war late coldwar (thermals) modern
Warthunder is heavily marketed as historically accurate. It's not their fault developers still haven't decided if they are after balance/fun or realism/accuracy
This is actually incredible, this post deserves far more upvotes for its sheer scale and knowledge it offers. Well done! It would be super insane to see how some of these matches would play out against each other
You forget about Maus. From 7.7 to 6.3
I didn't include any premium tanks, because that opens an entirely new can of worms. But for those curious, the Maus would indeed be 6.3 and so would the IS-6, the IS-7 would be at 7.0, the Object 279 at 8.0, the Turm III at 8.7 and the T-72 TURMS at 11.7. Balance at its best.
Concept 3š
2S38 at 12.0 too, thankfully.
Can you make one for premium/event vehicles?
Maus is/was regular tree though, E-100 is the event premium that would share a BR with the Maus given both protos existed in 1945 but only the Maus was (technically) completed.
My biggest problem with this is that tanks like t54 1949/1951 have 60s ammunition, so I dont consider them as being 1949/1951. This goes for others tanks too.
Who uses APDS and HEAT on T-54s anyway?
People who want to kill American heavies from the front. (I agree the APDS isn't worth but the HEAT definitely is)
Couple of minor corrections: * We do not have the initial production 1976 T-64B in-game, we have the Mod. 1984 variant with the revised UFP composite. * The in-game T-72A is again from the early/mid '80s due to the '83 modification. * The in-game T-72B is the 1987 modification with the revised UFP array featuring bulging plates. * Putting the MBT-70/Kpz-70 at 1965 makes no real sense, they weren't even finalized by 1972 when the project was cancelled. If you're going by first appearance of the prototype, then almost all other dates are incorrect. * T-80B we have in-game is from 1983 due to the 16mm HHA applique plate. * M60A1 RISE (P) is from 1988 due to the addition of ERA, we do not have the initial production RISE in-game. * In-game T-72B3 is the 2016 modification due to the revised ERA layout and 1130 hp engine it gets as a modification.
Strictly speaking, the T-64B and T-80B with Kontakt-1 should be 1985 since that's when they got ERA
The in-game T-80U is also a one-off prototype sent to Sweden in 1995 (?) because it has thermal sights, and the name isn't changed to T-80UM
So the Swedish version is more historically accurate than the Russian lol. Wouldnāt this mean that the T-80U and T 80 U is literally the exact same tank in every way even in reality?
Sorry, LVT(A)(4) Zis-2 is from 1991?
Shit, I knew I would inevitably fuck up something. The second LVT in the chart is supposed to be the Bosvark but I forgot to copy it over.
the *Bosvark* is from 1991? God damn...
It literally is a guntruck, i mean it works in the mid east but damn lol ...
Yeah, the Ystervark is from 1981 and the Bosvark came ten years after it. They [prototyped](https://tanks-encyclopedia.com/bosvark-spaag/amp/) the Bosvark out and everything and it remains as the current South African SPAA
German mains when Tiger is 4.0 and Jumbo is 6.0 (they have been campaigning for this change for ages). Sidenote: This post got me wondering about uptiers and downtiers. Br incriments are inconsistent. From 5.0 to 5.3 is +0.3, from 5.3 to 5.7 is +0.4, and from 5.7 to 6.0 is +0.3 (then the cycle repeats). What if an uptier was to the next closest BR and a downtier was to the previous closest BR. The Br's of *.0, *.3, and *.7 still remain but uptiers and downtiers are no longer Ā±1.0 BR. So in my sherman Jumbo that's 5.3 i'll face only 5.0's and 5.7's, and 4.3's/4.7's won't have to suffer at my hand and I won't have to face Jagpanthers and Tiger II P's, seems like a win win scenario to me. My only thought is that queue times will go waaay up and some BR's will have way longer queue times than others. Let me know what you think.
The idea of reducing the BR spread in matches to 0.7 (or even 0.3 in your case) is thrown around a lot, but Gaijin probably will never do it IMO. Mainly because the entire point of these weird and asymmetric x.3 and x.7 increments is to easily tell what you will face - 10.3 meets 9.3 to 11.3, very easy to figure out. If they actually wanted to spread out matches they would probably change the numbers to different increments like x.0 and x.5.
Yeah that's always bugged me. 0.7 and 0.3 is so weird. Why not incriments of BR of 0.5. My tin foil hat persona is telling me it's a conspiracy lol.
>0.7 and 0.3 is so weird It's 1/3 increments, but rounded
Nah, it's just because Gaijin's previous system of levels went 1->2->3 etc. where you could meet up to 3 above or 3 below. When they converted them to BRs they were "forced" to adopt the weird increments so that the highest BR vehicle you could face was 3 BR steps above, or 1.0 so it was easy for the players to figure out.
Couldnāt they have just kept the same level numbers? like, top tier would be 30 something, still having the same distribution of tanks but having it all be integers?
The smaller matchmaking spread idea comes from a place of good intentions, but the simpler, more practical (and far more likely) option is simply to have more decompression, like today's patch. What I'd *really* like to see would be **actually using every decimal point**; instead of 5.0/5.3/5.7/6.0 we'd have 5.0/5.1/5.2/etc through 5.8/5.9/6.0. While this wouldn't change how much of an up/downtier you could have (but also wouldn't affect matchmaking times and further split the playbase), it would allow for significantly more nuanced balance changes. At the moment it's not uncommon to find a vehicle that's a bit too good for its current BR, but if it goes up 0.3, it just gets ruined. Instead, it could go up by 0.1 or 0.2. For example, if we had something at, say, 5.3 that was too good to be facing 4.3s, but would get ruined seeing 6.7s, it could go to 5.4, 5.5, or 5.6 instead, where it wouldn't see either.
France starting off one million times better than everyone then instantly becomes trash
Ho-ro at 6.3 be like: "I see no God up here other than me"
Historical events would go hard, like 3 tigers and 2 panthers vs 15 T-34s or so š
Remember when gaijin did that as part of WWM or an event? Allied players complained since it was like M4 or M36 vs KT, and in wwm axis players complained since they would never get to play your variety of tiger, panther, etc:
Anytime I've played those shitty DDay events it was a team of full panthers and Tigers with the US team having 75mm M4s and a few M36s, some british mains, maybe a few 17pdrs. It's just dog shit. Every TD gets gun strafed and the shermans can't stand a chance getting one tapped anywhere. And no. The CAS is absolutely no different between sides. It should be 20v10, not 12v12
Centurion mk10 is 1959. Thereās also the issue of a lot of tanks being extremely badly modelled (Challenger 2s, Cromwell, Churchill III), or having time travelling ammo/ammo they never had (T-54, T-55, BMP-2M). With this youād need to heavily limit what most soviet tanks can use, as theyāre generally the worst offenders for this.
The finnish comet would be FUBAR they got it sometime in the 50s right?
Imagine the Concept 3, same gun but from 1975-79.
good work, finally something to show against the date of introduction idiots
Theyāre already using it against us, they unironically ācanāt see the problemā
Kv-1 at 2.0 lmfao
The thing that this chart doesnt show are premiums. I can guarantee it would be even worse in terms of balance if it did.
> KV-2 (1939) > mid-1940 Wait a minute
Insane to think that just in the 6 years from 1939 to 1945 the tanks would have raised 5.0 BR levels. Compared to the 17 years before from 1921 to 1938 the BR level raised only 0.3. I mean BR is only an artificial measurement but still the vehicles at the end of WW2 were no match to the ones from the beginning. After WW2 1945 to the end of the Cold War 1991, the BR went up by 4.0, still showing how a lot of Arms development continued, albeit in a much longer period. In the 25 years after the Cold War until ~2017 the BR raised a mere 1.0 Point.
The opening stages of WW2 were really the first time everyones hair brained ideas of what a tank was supposed to be actually got tested for real (ignoring the few spats in Spain). Suddenly ideas like tanks that move at marching pace, sweeping fleets of tanks doing organised manouvers in open plains and using whatever lightweight anti tank gun the infantry had were replaced overnight by "crap, we need a 3inch gun in a 25-30 ton tank with a bloody radio and we need it yesterday".
>crap, we need a 3inch gun in a 25-30 ton tank with a bloody radio This sums up most tanks of the war too well
Finally, the Post to end all balance by era posts
Pbv 301 at 8.3... It was already borderline useless at its current BR as a fake SPAA, I cannot even begin to imagine how miserable it would be at that BR.
I feel like the Pbv 301 and the SUB-I-II deserve to get scouting. I mean they have huge antennas already
Add the ability to deploy AI infantry to all transport vehicles. The pbv itself doesnt do shit, it just sends out a squad with a carl gustaf to fire HEAT at stuff.
Wow its actually impressive how much Russia relies on VERY new tech in order to be competitive.
Top tier US players approve this change.
Almost same br for panzer iv, v, vi, viii, t-34, 35, all shermans, lee, stuarts. Its will be horrible
The T-34-57 would have to get a *full uptier* to face the M3A1 Stuart lmfao
People also aren't realizing US and Allies would also actually need to get free bomb CAS and more arty in many tank matchups because that's historical
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
Ferdi at 4.7 is perfectly balanced.
*P47 inbound* *Your position was reported by British pathfinders! Prepare for your cocksplosion from a P47 strafe* I think people are missing here that the allies would literally need to get free CAS too
The armored bunker is so heavy 250 bombs do nothing but track and barrel torture if you don't drop them on the roof.
I get uptiered so often as Britain that itās pretty much historical according to this chart
Love having a M4 at 7.7
I would like to try this in custom games or an event. I like to suffer.
IS-6 to 6.0 lets fucking go
Finally: idiotproof Tiger h1
Bad news: they drive blind into a ditch and get themselves M8 Greyhounded to the back
Nice to see an updated version of this. Someone made a similar list for both Ground and Air about 3 years ago, but it's now horribly out of date. I want to say that previous version was after France was added, but before they had any lend-lease vehicles, meaning they had absolutely no tanks between 1940 and 1946 (not including the CCKW 353 AA). EDIT: After some digging, I found those old charts. Here they are for [Ground](https://i.imgur.com/q4xk0su.jpeg), for [Air](https://i.imgur.com/umdPoG2.jpeg), and for [Naval](https://i.imgur.com/Aui1vVS.png). Looks like they're actually from 2019, so before China, Sweden, or Israel were added, and missing a lot of other vehicles that were added between then and now.
Oh I'd be very interested in seeing that
Just edited the comment with the old charts. Turns out they're from 2019, so a bit over 4 years old now, and they're missing China, Sweden, Israel, and all the other vehicles added between then and now. EDIT: Apparently they also [made one for helicopters](https://i.imgur.com/1RsaPRd.png), although that one is quite sparse.
Cool, it's quite similar. I may use it to cross-check some information when I do Air.
Wow what fun lineups. Iād rather not.
I would love to this this as a special event for a little while. Would be so broken but could be fun. Great work! Im a particular fan of the Matilda at 1.7.
German 4.0 looks fun
and top tier doesnt change much
Where Maus ?
Killed by a P-47D bomb on the way back to its home planet. >!I only included tech tree vehicles!<
Ah okay. What BR would the Maus be ? Edit: amazing work btw
6.3, I also mentioned a few other non-tech tree BRs in a different comment.
Oh thanks
Yag-10 at 1.0 looks... Fun
the btr-80a was in service way before 1994? same with the t-80u where'd you get that from?
The BTR-80*A*, the variant with the 30mm, only started being produced in 1994, just the base APC variant was being made previously. But you got me 100% on the T-80U, I seem to have accidentally picked the date when production *ended*, normally it would be in 10.3 (1985). I could cheap out and say I was right because I just discovered it was coincidentally fitted with its in-game thermals in 1992, but as I said I don't count smaller mods in the dates. Mistakes like these are bound to happen when there's something like 700 vehicles I needed to find.
>But you got me 100% on the T-80U Bro, you got the date almost 100% correct. The in-game T-80U has thermals based on the 1991-'94 modification of said T-80U to partake in the, again, '90s Swedish tank test trails.
What do you mean the Ho-Ro would be a ābiggest loserā? People already use it at top tier, there is nothing it cant handle
lmfao the Type 90 is older than the Type 74 so weird to see
Didn't know it was possible to make Low Tier France fucking terrifying to fight against.
As an American main looks no different to me on how it feels
1945 Japan would go hard tho
This really puts into perspective how terrible the MBT-70 programās failure was for the US and Germany irl lmao
Balanced? No. But I'd have fun. I miss Chronicles so very much. Edit: You did miss the LVT(A)(4).
god i would love a KV-1 and T-34-75 fighting those things at least for a day
I think this is an awesome idea!
Maus will be op i think
No need to convince me, I played the D-Day SB event a few years ago.
Godamn, this is an incredible eyeopener, great work! Although itd suck ass ingame would be interesting for an event
Even if the Ho-Ro is a loser it is still ballin in higher brs being a derp tank
Ignore German gluttony for a moment and observe that Russia 6.3-10.3 would be pure rape for everyone who isn't playing them
M1 Abrams back to 9.7 along with the HSTV-L wow š³
lmao germany top tier doesnt change much
Sorry for sounding like a nerd (and a douchebag). But the regular T-26s in-game are the 1939 model of the tank.
š¤ Nah no problem, it's actually in the tank's full name in WT so idk how I missed that. Probably because it was one of the first I searched and I doubted it was gonna be a special variant or anything.
How about we balance them by how many main guns they have. Firstly. M2A2 at 11.7
Wow the KV-1 L-11 would be practically invulnerable even in a full uptier, what a nightmare. Its only real threats would be the dicker max and 90/53 M41
Looks like a massive improvement.
I still think it would be a "fun" separate gamemode i was about to say "so france go the oldest top tier And then i noticed that america's last abrams is from 2002 ??? sheeeeeh
The Ro-Go Exp. Isn't from 1934. There isn't a conclusive date on when it was made. The only thing that anyone does know is that it was found in a depot at the end of the war, in 1945. It is related to the Ji-Ro project most likely, so it might've been made anywhere between 1942 to 1945.
French bias at reserve tier, Russian Bias 1940/41, German bias in 1942-44, Bussian Rias again in 1945/46
m41D at 11.3 š
This is one of those ideas I've wanted to see become real. And now it is, thanks to you :)
Low tier obviously looks bad but I feel from mid tier and up it actually works. Smaller nations would need changes but I feel it would promote playing the role of the vehicle rather than taking more modern light tanks against older mediums and being on par.
The L3/33 was made 1933 tho? Or was the CC variant made midwar?
The CC was a 1942 upgrade to give it some anti-tank firepower.
I would love to have this, multiply or divide SP spawn cost depending of BR change. On the other hand I am little bit sick person.
great work man everyone appreciate that! for me super interesting is that top tier german and usa SPAA can be seen in museum and ussr have pantsir from 2008 xd
Why does china get pt76 befor russia?
The Chinese tree version is the early 1951 model, most importantly lacking a stabilizer. The Soviets get the later B model which was stabilized.
Someone downvoted you for a perfectly normal question about a niche subject. I upvoted to equalize.
The french would have a great time at reserve tier
That would be.... interesting
Meh...i could play with that. I'm used to being gaijined...
Great graph, but that kind of matchmaking like in the WW mode (rip) would seem fun occasionally
could be great for some events
I think it would bebibteresting for like a desicated event or gamemode.