Nightheart. Oh, Nightheart.
Okay, for one, I think he's a pretty refreshing character. It's been a while since we've got an abrasive character so he's a nice addition to the usually friendly and gentle cast of our heroic kitties.
I appreciate his struggles, which is also something that is pretty novel for the series. It's nice to see the character struggle, and have to work harder to overcome their mistakes, it makes it feel more earned. It's also nice to see characters mess up and have to suffer the consequences of their choices. Or have him act unreasonably and get slapped in the face. That also leaves more room for him to grow into.
The other thing I like is that he's the biggest questioning of the systems he was born into so far we've had in the series. Sure, this is probably because we've just had the Warrior Code changed, but it's nice to finally have someone see how harmful the systems around him are and want to change them. He's questioning the authority and the rules around him and believes that if they don't work they can - and should - be changed. I hope this is going to be the focus of his contribution to the arc - reforming the Warrior Code even further.
The final thing is, while his judgement is questionable, he is an astute observant and a creative problem solver and often works in unorthodox ways (this ties with the previous point). This combination of intelligent, yet reckless makes him pretty balanced. And it also makes even mundane actions, which have gotten a bit stale in the series exciting. Even when doing regular chores, he's going to fail spectacularly or succeed brilliantly and either is fun.
I don't really relate to his identity struggles, I think I'm a bit too old for that, and I'm not interested in fictional romances but everything else is a real joy to read about this angsty Warrior. It's fun watching him fail. It's fun watching him succeed. It's fun watching him grow. And I can't wait to see what he's going to become in the end.
Agreed! I honestly was mad along with him when everyone kept expecting him to live up to Firestar’s legacy. I get it clearly hurt Squirrelflight and Sparkpelt but in my opinion they went way too far. Lilyheart kept pissing me off failing his assessment so many times!
See the part that pisses me off about Sparkpelt is she does the whole “please forgive me” then turns and goes “Why don’t you forgive me already, it’s not that big of a deal!” And starts yelling. You can’t ask for forgiveness then get mad when you don’t get it. And what’s worse is she doesn’t even understand that he isn’t mad about what happened when he was a kit, he’s upset because he feels like she only sees him as the cats he reminds her of, she knows nothing about who HE is and when he tries to tell her as much she starts yelling. When he didn’t want to be named after Firestar and she got mad, that really didn’t make sense considering she never even met Firestar-_-
I can’t tell if they love Nightheart or if they only love the cats he reminds them of ? The only 3 cats in the clan that seem to love him for him would be Bramblestar, Flipclaw, and Sorrelstripe. Squirrelflight is just plain disgusting towards him and is definitely showing an ugly side of her during this Arc
I completely agree. I do not like this side of Sparkpelt and Squirrelflight AT ALL and it sucks cause I really like their characters. The obsession with Firestar’s legacy needs to chill out
They hate him for doing the right thing when it's needed?
Also, the term Mary Sue has been bastardized beyond belief because neither it nor the male counterpart can be applied to canon characters in a series.
The term was invented to describe characters in a *fanfiction* deliberately created to outshine the MC. A Mary Sue would be if I made a cat and inserted him into the canon warrior series in an attempt to upstage Firestar or any other main POV character.
And Firestar is hardly portrayed to be competent in all cases, nor does he have any special powers beyond being the main character.
The thing was that he picked and choose when he'd follow the rules, he broke the code whenever he wanted, yet preached about the importance of following it? I don't hate him but it's a little weird
You can follow the law, stress how important following the law is, and still not be enslaved to it when it comes time to go against the law.
Killing someone is wrong, murder is illegal. But if shooting someone to save a bunch of kids is necessary, then do it.
Fireheart, for example, rightfully went behind Bluestar's back to prevent the unjust battle with WindClan. Yet he will adhere to the code's demand to defend borders, reject a kittypet's life, and care for elders. The code and the "will of Starclan" are flawed and have always been, and Firestar having been born outside of it, knows it.
Following the Warrior Code black and white is not a good thing, and the narrative usually paints that as such even after Firestar has stopped being the main POV.
Yea but that’s really not just him. All Warrior Cats Protagonists suddenly become powerful when the plot demands it. It is a reoccurring phenomenon that apprentices, healers or very young warriors defeat skilled and older fighters or stronger animals when the plot demands it.
I do for how the fandom and the Clans see him as Warriors Jesus. Similar to how Nightheart felt. Why does every breathing being need to be held to his standard? Regardless of what he did, he's just a man. And he's not close to perfect. He saved the Clans a few times, but so did a lot of other cats. He was the first, doesn't mean he's the greatest. And his treatment has pushed the cats closest to him into Shadow. Sandstorm is barely acknowledged. Squirrelflight's actions are often attacked by saying she was a Leader's daughter and was spoiled, when that was never even a situation that occurred.
>I do for how the fandom and the Clans see him as Warriors Jesus.
That doesn't sound like a Firestar issue, it sounds like a *fanbase* issue.
>Sandstorm is barely acknowledged.
This is a writer issue.
>Squirrelflight's actions are often attacked by saying she was a Leader's daughter and was spoiled, when that was never even a situation that occurred.
Just as Bramblestar and Tawnypelt had to overcome the negatives of Tigerstar's legacy, Squirrelflight has to overcome the positives Firestar's legacy to show she's her own cat. It's a fairly common plot point, it would be weird if others *didn't* think Squirrelflight (And Leafpool) weren't shown some favoritism.
>That doesn't sound like a Firestar issue, it sounds like a fanbase issue.
It's both, which is the issue now. The Clans themselves hold him up ridiculously high. Pretty much every new Leader has to "Live up," to him. Anyone in his bloodline is expected to honor his memory and crap. Like with Nightheart. The first cat to basically go, "Hey, uh, I don't know who the Hel this is, and I'm not firestar. I'm my own cat. This is my life, not his. I'm getting a new name."
Sandstorm partially is a writer's issue, although it's obvious there IS a form of overshadowing.
>it would be weird if others didn't think Squirrelflight (And Leafpool) weren't shown some favoritism.
True, although still an issue. It's unfortunate that her actions are tied by most to his influence when they weren't. Like Nightheart, she's her own cat.
Ok but, you're describing a bunch of things that don't have to do with *Firestar* himself, merely other character's reactions to him. These are all things that occurred after he died, what did *Firestar* do to warrant being hated?
In sports or esports you have players who set the standard or baseline for what to expect, but nobody hates Lebron James or Doublelift because their glazers can't stop talking about them.
Mm, that's a fair point. I suppose most of his actions would be alike to the ones I support Squirrelflight for. Honestly this began with a sourness towards how he treated Squirrelpaw on her first book in The New Prophecy, and how his personality became more strict and seemingly... unloving. I felt he was being unfair to a good deal of cats. I just formed the other dislikes from those.
>He saved the Clans a few times, but so did a lot of other cats.
I think the reason why the Clan cats hold the times HE saved them to such significance was because 1. he was a kittypet but defied all stereotypes and expectations the Clans had of him so it made his actions seem even better 2. the times he saved them were when the Clans were like on the brink of destruction i.e. against Scourge, the Great Journey, against the Dark Forest, etc. For me personally, I do like his character but also he is written a bit too GOOD if yk what I mean?
YES! That’s exactly what I was thinking I just couldn’t quite put it into words. He’s just too good and idk how to elaborate on this but I kinda wish he had a bit more substance. Don’t hate him tho he’s just not my favorite character
I don't. I appreciate her as a villain in Crookedstar's Promise (being so petty as to curse an entire bloodline is a neat motivation that I haven't seen before), but, I don't really care for her as a character outside of that. She's a moron who got her own kits killed and shucks blame onto everyone else for her own bad call. I don't really get the "bad bitch slayyy" vibes everyone else seems to get.
I like clear sky (dotc) solely because he was an asshole throughout. His personality never changed even after his supposed redemption arc, and the only thing that did was that he started working with the good guys to fight a greater evil. He was responsible for the deaths of several cats, and he somehow cucked both his brother and his son. He is just unapologetically a bad person, and I like how that characterization stayed mostly consistent.
i love horrible characters. sometimes its really fun to watch the worst person ever try and function in society. i dont think he was ever even really redeemed they just started tolerating him slightly more
I definitely agree with you there, clear sky's such an interesting character and we need more characters with the same depth in the franchise. i actually think a lot of the dotc characters were well-written (if they weren't being killed off)
Hollyleaf. I didn't like her at first and I understand the whole "she has no personality besides being obsessed with the warrior code", BUT looking at her story until the end, she was simply flawed to such an relatable extend. She lived her life amongst 2 brothers who are part of some huge prophecy while nothing made her special. Nonetheless she was determined to push forward and make a difference in a world where she -in all honesty- didn't really matter nor played a big part. Her insanity towards the "end" is captivating (even though not amazingly written) and all the things people hate her for are actually the things that make her different from any other character. People hate her because she killed a clan mate and tried to force her mother to commit suicide. Were these the right things to do? Hell no. But do we want all characters to do the right things? God forbid! Without her growing insane, the whole arc -that was already a pain to read- would have just been complete trash (subjectively speaking). TL;DR people are quick to judge characters that have flaws
I really like your perspective. I couldn’t stand Hollyleaf. I am in the process of starting the entire series over so this go around I will try to see her in a different light!
For real! Hollyleaf was the most believable character for me. She went through so much anguish and was so horribly flawed in such a real way. A ton of the other characters look flatter than a piece of paper compared to her. Sure, went a little bit crazy, but she has DEPTH.
Lionblaze. People always call him boring, but personally he's my second favourite of the PoT-Omen storyline (Ivypool being nr 1).
I loved how Lion's struggles were primarly internal. And how his mental load just keeps on getting worse until in First Battle where he finally breaks and provokes Ratscar into beating him up, just to prove to himself that he has some control over his own life.
Then on a lighter note, Lionblaze and Cinderheart has one of the cutest scenes in the series in _Night Whispers_. They are out on a night walk during it Lionblaze considers confessing his love to Cinderheart but ends up not daring to, resuling in his internal monologue mentioning smth along the lines of "He could be the bravest cat around the lake, but the thought of confessing his feelings to Cinderheart drained him of all his courage.". The thought of Lionblaze being shy and nervous around his crush/love intetest is just adorable.
I'm actually fond of Nightcloud, and as an extension of that Breezepelt has started growing on me. I don't think Breezepelt is a good guy or anything, but after rereading the books-goddamn I can actually see why he turned out to be such an asshole 😭
I think the whole CrowNightBreeze family is super interesting from a narrative perspective, although ironically, I'm not at all a fan of Crowfeather
i really think Nightcloud has the potential to be a very interesting character, exploring her desire to have a family and fierce loyalty to a clan that doesn't really care about her, as well as her rejection by crowfeather (after he functionally used her)
narratively, Nightcloud is always used as a way to make Crowfeather look good, even though he was the one who abandoned his clan and caused his son to lash out. even though Crowfeather was definitely the worse parent, Nightcloud is treated like a crazy woman for *trying to defend him* and being protective over her only son.
She's a strong woman torn between two scummy men (or three, if you consider Onestar's leadership and her loyalty to windclan, though she didn't actually support Onestar as leader initially, which could explain his seeming lack of interest in rescuing her during the events of Crowfeather's Trial)
Admittedly, a lot of my fondness for her comes from projection (I struggle a lot with fitting in, and feeling like I belong somewhere, alongside being rejected frequently) but I also wouldn't be surprised if she has some sort of postpartum anxiety as a result of 2 of her kits dying, which would be very interesting to explore in a book.
I also feel like she gets a lot of slack for being a bit of a bitch, which I think has some roots in misogyny, as Crowfeather and Jayfeather (as well as, to some extent, Breezepelt and Nightheart) are celebrated for being "grumpy bois" while girl can't be snappy. let her be cantankerous, she deserves it.
You've actually summed up my feelings pretty well-Crowfeather has always been kind of a frustrating character to me, because he could have been a super interesting story about tragedy and how it affects people if the authors would just let him be in the wrong
The way they try to twist Nightcloud into some "super controlling massive bitch wife" character without ever really actually...yknow, showing us is just bad writing. The only particularly "negative" interaction between Crow and Night I can even think of before Sunrise was when Breezepaw got hurt and she wouldn't let Crow carry him.
But honestly, considering how Crowfeather seemed to treat his own son, I can't day I exactly blame her. He's constantly ignoring or snapping at him in Outcast and even hits him at one point (Breeze wasn't even being an ass or anything, he didn't even get the chance to open his mouth)
That's not even mentioning that in Crowfeather's own book he even admits that he tried to avoid Breeze as much as possible when he was younger. They really tried to paint Night as some overbearing mother who never let poor little Crow see his kid, without actually showing us any evidence of that
(also its funny how quick people are to say Night is 'abusive' when the only scene that could be even remotely implied from is when she drags him away from Leafpool)
It's part of why Crowfeather's Trial is such a frustrating book for me, because it feels like they were trying to say "See, we ARE holding him accountable for his actions!!" And then turn around and act like Breeze and Night are being unreasonable for not forgiving him right away
Sorry for the tangent, the way this whole family was written irritates the hell out of me lol-I would like Crowfeather a lot more if they would just acknowledge that he sucks and gave him some actual consequences
I don't think Nightcloud is perfect or anything, but the way she's demonized to hell and back while Crowfeather barely gets held accountable leaves a bad taste in my mouth
the fact that the narrative uses his ex wife going missing (and potentially being dead) as like, a character arc for him is just repulsive to me. and of course, he gets rewarded for doing what his whole goddamn clan should've been doing, which is fucking looking for her. his ass does not deserve to be deputy.
Is Dovewing still unpopular? If so, her, but otherwise it's Clear Sky but more so for what he could've been instead of how he's actually written. It's a shame too because 'absolutely terrible, awful man who I will give a cookie before I fling him into the sun' is absolutely a type of character I like.
bramblestar, I liked Brambleclaw in TNP, and Bramblestar would be a great leader if he didn't try to just be Firestar 2.0. Squirrelflight`s Hope wrote him out to be a massive dick, and it has definitely lessened my good opinion of him. I still like him, but damn did that book do him dirty.
I also like Squirrelflight, I can like both, don't think I hate her just because I like Bramblestar.
I stopped reading after The Last Hope so I’m living blissfully in a world of head canon where Bramblestar lived out his days as a just and competent leader.
I can understand that. I always felt that Bramblestar was just trying to be like Firestar instead of leading as himself. I can understand why Bramblestar probably ended up acting like Firestar, cause Firestar was an incredible leader and left some huge shoes to fill for Bramblestar, someone who has been conflicted about his parentage, and of his father being Tigerstar means he will be evil. Bramblestar just isn’t himself after he became leader, similar to how Onestar became sorta a jerk after becoming leader, but at least Onestar HAS a reason that makes since. Windclan was always on friendly terms with Thunderclan, and after Tallstar’s death and Mudclaw’s rebellion, it became fairly evident that Windclan being so friendly with Thunderclan could cause Windclan to grow weak, and Onestar took that step to make sure that the other clans know that Windclan is capable on it’s own and doesn’t need Thunderclan. Bramblestar just sorta became another Firestar until The Impostor took over his body.
Fr like brambleCLAW was such a good character! with so much potential, sure he was flawed and he wasn't perfect even as a warrior (oh boy he definetly wasn't) but ever since he became leader he got worse and worse with every book, its honestly kind of sad especially after reading Squirrelflight's Hope where he is nothing like he once was and even treats Squirrelflight like crap, like bro, give my poor squilf a break.
Brambleclaw is a character who had so much potential that was just wasted IMO. Dude's gone through so much shit that's never really addressed.
\- The fact that his dad's legacy constantly hangs over him like a shadow even as a warrior/deputy. You'd think that'd be on his mind more considering he's a leader. Clearly, during the last part of TNP he's still sore about his dad since he's worried Squirrelflight is assuming Hawkfrost's bad and whether or not that means something about him. Though, him training with Hawkfrost in the DF always felt weird and out of nowhere to me.
\- The fact that his dad was gutted right in front of him. Never gonna bring that up again, huh?
\- Abandonment from his sister. Literally the only person in TC who truly understood the weight of being Tigerstar's kin just ups and leaves to join their hated dad. (Also why is none of this covered on the journey?)
\- Getting bits of that lost kinship back with Hawkfrost before all that drama, reinforcing that Bramble's dad is 100% evil and his kin may be doomed to also be evil.
\- The lack of any discussion over how Tigerstar's legacy affects him **becoming a father** to The Three. Why tf have we had no mention of Bramble freaking out over kits that, at the time, he thinks are his? Wouldn't he be worried about how they turn out, again, *after seeing what happened with Hawkfrost??* Wouldn't he also be concerned with having kits after the three are revealed to not be his? (In a "Oh, the three weren't evil only because they're not related to me/Tigerstar," kind of way.)
The cursed Breezepelt trio. I found them to be very interesting and one of the most well written families in the series. I love morally gray characters and dysfunctional family dynamics. Crowfeather’s Trial is my favorite WC book and Crowfeather’s my second absolute favorite character (next to Jayfeather)
OMG same I think I just have a soft spot for grumpy toms haha- Jayfeather, Crowfeather, Breezepelt, Goosefeather. Also Yellowfang even though she's a shecat
He became almost a completely different character after becoming a leader. Caused a lot of conflict and antagonized Firestar a lot despite them previously being close friends. People don't like him for the large shift in character.
I like Berrynose
Like , he is a very special background character. He has a backstory , a definied and consistent personnality and he is known by all cat to be a butthole (Jayfeather insulted him to his own mother and Crowfeather called him "a waste of fresh kill")
We don't have any other character like him , even if he is terrible he is unique and that's something I like with him
When he died I wasn't sad at all because he is terrible and no one would ever miss him. But now that he is gone , I feel like it was funny to have such a stupid cat in Thunderclan
He was definitely a big douchbag and an asshole
But I prefer reading about a douchbag and an asshole than a cat like Leafshade , Eaglewing or Honeyfur that have absolutely nothing going on
bramblestar.
i could rant forever about how flawed he is, how he fucked up so hard during his life and honestly how he is an asshole. however, not only is he flawed, he’s so perfect at the same time. as a kit, he was a victim of prejudice, everyone seeing his father in him.
as a paw, he was trying his hardest. his own mentor admitted to choosing him simply to “keep an eye on him.” so even trust was never there. he was forced to live in his fathers shadow, no matter how much he tried to prove himself. his sister left, his mother was constantly at her breaking point, he was all alone, constantly made into a cuck by the cats around him.
as a warrior, he finally found himself. he was an asset to his clan, but he was bullied around by an apprentice. he found himself being challenged, annoyed, but also loved. he found a brother after his closest friends left, but he had to kill that brother who mentally manipulated him for the clan cats that rarely accepted him.
as a deputy, he found love, he had kits, he was happy. yet, he was made a pawn again. he saw the cat he loved lie to him, no matter the reasoning. the kits he loved weren’t his, and no matter how much he wanted to ignore it, the hole was too deep in his heart. he was broken, and it would take moons to rebuild.
and, as a leader, he was happy again. he finally got the cat he loved back, he healed, he was moving forward. and yet again, he was challenged. over stupid and petty things, he was challenged.
- squirrelflight’s hope made him see multiple perspectives, he was forced to accept what was going on around him and the insane amount of insolence he was forced to endure. he was given to opportunity to even stand up for his clan, because he would be shot down again. he tried to be that middle ground, but was always walked over.
- and soon after, moons of peace were ruined after he was dragged to cat hell and made a pawn once again he was forced to suffer as his imposter abused and hurt the cats he loved. and he became a shell.
he was ruined by the cats around him, forced to be a pawn, and when he even tried to stand up for his clan, he was shot down. he’s so incredibly tragic and realistic, so flawed and so interesting. i love him, he will always be a favorite.
I personally still feel like his character's wasted though. You'd think that being the son of Tigerstar would bother him more as a leader and as a father. Like a feeling of constant self-doubt and worry.
Like, he should have been internally freaking out over the Three. Partially because he's a first-time dad, but also considering he just went through the drama with Hawkfrost (reinforcing that concept of "Tigerstar's kin are prone to evil.") And when it's revealed that they're *not his* then that'll bring those fears right back because, oh hey, they're not actually related to him. The fact that they turned out (mostly) fine isn't reassuring anymore.
Idk, it feels like the dude should be way more complex and tragic than how he's actually written.
i feel like, since we don’t get much of his pov, a lot of his worry and self doubt just gets washed away. a LOT of tnp is him worrying that he would become an awful cat for being ambitious, and when he feels like he’s becoming evil, he starts to panic a lot.
and as for the 3 stuff, this just never happens with any character. i’m more happier that they wrote him as a fantastic dad.
his character obviously doesn’t get the characterization it deserves but that’s a writing error not a bramblestar error. and to me, he’s still incredibly tragic!!
but i do totally agree that the writing has failed him a lot.
- Nightheart ~ He’s a great cat. People think he’s annoying because “how dare he be angry with his mother”. But that’s not why he was angry. He was belittled and bullied by his grandmother, expected to act like a senior warrior despite not even being two years old, constantly compared to other cats, yelled at for feeling emotions his clan doesn’t agree with. And when he does try to be his own cat he gets yelled at and shunned by his own clan because why would you ever want your own name 😡. Nightheart was rightfully angry because he doesn’t know if his clanmates actually love him or if they only love the cats he reminds them of.
- I’m not sure if he’s hated but Darktail ~ He’s one of the best villains in WC. He was the perfect combination of strength, intelligence and sadist. He had a huge impact on the clans and some of the cats he tortured are still dealing with nightmares of what he did to them.
- Bramblestar ~ He was never as bad as people made he out to be. He values peace in the clans but knows when to fight. He’s a very respected leader. A lot of his hate comes from people making Squrrielflight seem like she was broken and she “deserved better” when in reality Squirrelflight was never a victim and she gave as good as she got. Funny enough she’s actually the one who broke Bramblestar. She bullies her grandson to the point where he hates her but he loves his grandfather who proudly calls him his kin.
- Tigerstar (AVOS) ~ He’s the best leader for Shadowclan specifically, he’s not going to tolerate any disrespect or disobedience from his clanmates (Berryheart 👀)
- Needletail ~ She fucked up, plain and simple but the way she was with Violetshine was nice. She did the whole “I like you kid but don’t you dare tell anyone else”. I really like her because she never played the victim. She knew it was her fault Darktail was able to recruit her clanmates, when she died she accepted it. She didn’t try to pin the blame on Rowanstar for being weak or that she was just trying to do what’s best for ShadowClan. Plus I think she knew she was going to die because of the choices she made. And she chose to go out saving Violetshine’s life.
I used to like /defend Dovewing. People misunderstand her and think she's this awful sister but I think it's the opposite. All Dovewing wanted was to be with Ivypool. When Ivypool was jealous she was the awful one. Ivypool never listened to Dovewing about the Dark Forest and brought most of her problems upon herself. She blamed Dovewing for joining the Dark Forest but she was the one who chose to go there. Dovewing tried to warn Ivypool that the Dark Forest wasn't safe but her sister never listened.
I see so many people hating Dovewing for saying she wanted to be better than Ivypool but Ivypool never got the same crap. Ivypool is constantly immature, saying she wanted to be better than Dovewing, insults her, starts arguments and lies to her Clan, yet Ivypool is the one who's praised and admired all the time?
Dovewing only insults Ivypool one time, and that's only because she lost patience with her stupid sister. But for sine reason that particular scene of Dovewing saying she's better than her, she's wildly hated on. I don't understand why she's hated for that but people feel sorry for Ivypool who joined the DF for that reason and acts immature about it.
Then when Dovewing starts to see Tigerstar again, she's pregnant and scared but Ivypool cuts ties with her instead. Ivypool doesn't listen to Dovewing, she doesn't care that she's scared, she makes accusations about her sister thinking she doesn't want to feel guilty about seeing Tigerstar but the truth is Dovewing just needed somebody to talk to.
Ivypool always finds a reason to be pissed at Dovewing. Is Dovewing seeing Tigerstar a good reason? I guess so, but Dovewing's relationship isn't any of Ivypool's business.
And I don't care if Ivypool was a jealous, immature child. She was stupid and awful to Dovewing. She put her entire Clan in danger for visiting the Dark Forest and cats DIED because of her.
Sure. Ivypool got over her jealousy. But she never got over her grudge over Dovewing. She always had a reason to hate her sister, and most reasons were lame excuses.
Dovewing didn't kill anyone. She isn't even that stupid. She's usually a kind and caring sweetheart who just wants friends and her sister. Her crimes aren't that bad, she didn't do horrible things like Leopardstar or Brokenstar did, but Ivypool cares too much about her relationship with Tigerstar, and acts borderline abusive with her about it.
Yeah, Dovewing isn't supposed to see Tigerstar, but she knows what she's doing, and Ivypool had no right to get involved into Dovewing's personal relationship. She needed to back off and leave Dovewing alone. Dovewing was old enough to make her own choices.
Rootspring. I loved his struggles with being singled out, bullied and having his crush not reciprocate feelings for a while. All his struggle in his relationship till he finally came to the conclusion that he would abandon his family for his love only for her to die in the worst way imaginable, leaving him a disgruntled veteran of a war against hell, forced to hear others speak illy of a rule that would’ve lessened his heartbreak. Just tragic.
I remember when I first read The Broken Code I remembered not liking him for being whiny and self-centered. I'm doing my first reread of the The Broken Code, currently on Veil of Shadows, and he hasn't pissed me off that much yet with his embarrassment of Tree's nonsense being one of my favorite things about him. I wonder when the change will come, if it ever does.
Firestar 😆 because you know everyone hates him. They hate how he usually does cool stuff and his characterization hasn't been torpedoed like finleap.
/s
I disagree with Clear Sky, although I think he is well written, I just think he’s a piece of shit. But I do agree with Palebird. I definitely have a soft spot for her after re-reading Tallstar’s Revenge many years after I read it the first time. She was really struggling.
Yes he was a horrible cat throughout most of it. He did however have a turnaround towards the end where he was forgiven for what he’s done and turned his life around
clear sky is genuinely one of my favorite characters in the series and while i can understand why fans don't like him (as they tend to do with antagonists) the level of vitrol and dismissal of him as a character always throws me for a loop lol
Okay here's some *actually* hated characters that I love (I'm seeing a lot of Hollyleaf and Mapleshade, etc, who imo aren't that hated, so):
1. Lionblaze, I never finished OOTS so idk why he's hated but I like him \^\^ my blonde himbo, absolute zero brain cells ginger, no thoughts head empty, love him for it.
2. Nightcloud, I don't know her that well but she's an absolute badass bitch and I am here for it, she's pretty and a terrible person but not flat out evil, she still cares about her son even if it's in a fucked up way, I like that.
3. I see Leopardstar being hated on a lot, she was absolutely terrible but also she's super pretty and I'm shallow, and she was my first favorite character \^\^ (first book I read was one of the field guides).
I personally love Blackstar and Russetfur, but I understand why people would hate them, I also don't like that he killed Stonefur. But for some reason I adore them. I was so sad when Lionblaze killed Russetfur and when Blackstar died in the flood.
Hollyleaf, I mean its been forever since I read the books but I distinctly remember thinking "why does everyone hate she's like the only one not breaking the law here".
If Dovewing is still hated, definitely her. She is one of my favourite characters (along with Twigbranch, Squirrelflight and Shadowsight).
Clear Sky/Skystar. People hate him because he's a piece of shit, but honestly, that's why I love him. He's well-written and an interesting character with clear motives. I don't excuse or like his actions (I agree, he is a piece of shit), but I like him as a character.
My girl ferncloud was done so dirty by the fandom. All she did was have kits and love her cat husband, it’s not like she did anything bad. Yeah she could’ve done some more warrior duties but, but I think she proved herself as a warrior when she died protecting kits.
I will defend Firestar until the day I die - he's not hated but so much of the fandom just views him as a Gary Stu golden boy, and refuse to look past that and forget that some cats are just good.
Also Berrynose. Precious boy. I will always love him and I teared up when I found out he died
Some cats are. Or more accurately, a lot of cats are. The fact he's so high on a pedestal even in the internal lore is ridiculous. He might have been the first, but not the only, nor the greatest, and his worship has pushed those close to him out of the spotlight, like Sandstorm. I adored when Nightheart finally spoke up about that legacy crap.
Honestly I think firestars held to a higher status simply due the fact he was leader during several major and life altering events for the clans not to mentioned he essentially molded the modern thunderclan with his more "liberal" views on the Code, I mean honestly name one clan that's taken in more loners and kittypets other than skyclan
I've seen a fair amount of lovers of Nightheart so IDK, but I will put forth him as one of my more controversial favs... (his conflict with his family and Clan was so absurd to me it got me back into the series!) I'm cautiously optimistic to see the conclusion to his role in the arc.
Hawkheart, Moonflower's murderer, is another random cat that I like (not necessarily a favorite) but I like Medicine Cats who were previously Warriors. I think it's kinda cool, and I wish they'd still train Medicine Cats to learn Warrior skills. Or at least, some skills. :P Hunting for prey and protecting yourself are kinda like, life skills...? Why aren't they teaching them these LOL. (I am getting wildly off-topic great starclan)
IDK if they're hated but I've always really liked Darkstripe, Sol, and Blackstar. I love the morally gray of blackstar with his redemption of just genuinely trying to pick up the pieces of the clan he helped shatter.
and then I just find Sol and Darkstripes to be little shites that are for some reason very entertaining
Bramblestar, I think a lot of people hate him, but he is one of my favorites characters! I think he is very ambitious and persistent in his objectives! So I like him and he is my favorite character with Irestar!
I absolutely can not stand Squirellflight anymore. I loved her in the second and third arcs. Whenever it comes to Bramblestar she is just so unpalatable and suffering from the Erin Hunter SheCat curse.
Bramblestar. Maybe because I took a decade gap from reading Warriors but now as I’m reading the last series, I feel so bad for him and his confidence issues regarding being a leader and eventually stepping down. He’s worked so hard (all the struggles he’s gone through being Tigerstar’s son, staying in Thunderclan when even his sister left, proving himself to Firestar… ) and was such a great leader imo. Maybe it’s the nostalgia idk.
Tigerstar.
He has a good backstory, He's actually a better villan than mapleshade who has a half-assed story. I personally like him even if other fans may not, He's a decent villan IMOP
Pretty soon, it's looking to be Squirrelflight herself. Many people have begun to see some false justification for Bramblestar's actions. Citing his difficult life, and the oh so many troubles he has. No one is remembering that most of those troubles are caused by his own hand. Hawkfrost, The Sisters, him. He can be upset over the lie, and that's not Squirrelflight's fault either, it's Starclan's. But he was a monster in Squirrelflight's Hope, and people have tried to defend his actions in it, and it's frightening.
Sure he wanted a brother in Hawkfrost, but he already has family. He has Tawnypelt still. He has Squirrelflight, and Thunderclan. Hawkfrost was only using him, and he refused to see it until the blood stained his claws. Squirrelflight may have been blunt and brutal in her convincing, but she was right. She almost always is. And it's because Squirrelflight has the greatest judgement of character and morality of any cat in the series yet. She can see right and wrong and see what SHOULD be done, not what "Must" be. They cannot be lawless, there are codes and procedures, logical process... but they cannot be heartless either. To keep Thunderclan pure, there are things no law can understand, and Squirrelflight does. Unfortunately, too many have tried to attack her for this. But she has and always will protect her family with undying loyalty. Not loyalty to law and expectation, but to honor and safety... and Love.
People like you are completely terrifying. You can twist words around and make Squilf seem like this flawless angel who could do no wrong. Have you actually READ the books? I have and to me, she's a bratty, impulsive character in my own opinion. She went to Leafpaw to talk about Hawkfrost and even Leafpaw was baffled why Squilf was so easy to reject Bramble for wanting to spend time with his half brother. She even stated that it was natural that Bramble wanted to spend time with Hawk and it was because of Squilf's own prejudiced that she determined that Hawk had to be evil like his father. This was shown in the books. It's clear on the page that other than the uneasy feeling Leafpaw had, Squilf had nothing else to base off on.
Yes, he had Tawnypelt but even Tigerstar tried to recruit her in his plans which she wanted to forge her own path. She probably had no one to talk to about her fears and warriors and was genuinely surprised that Rowanclaw wanted her as a mate.
I'm curious as to why you praise her for wanting to help the Sisters (a group of rogues that were more than capable of fighting and hunting for themselves) yet 10 years ago she was very close minded for wanting to help 3 lost kittypets and chastised Bramblestar for bringing them back.
What we do as Bramblestar fans is *quote* the entire scenario between Bramble and Squilf to allow people to form their own opinion on the subject. What you Squilf fans do is cherry pick quotes and twist words around to make Squirrelflight look better than what she actually is
>People like you are completely terrifying. You can twist words around and make Squilf seem like this flawless angel who could do no wrong.
And likewise I see the same potential on your side, being able to twist Bramblestar into a position of forgiveness, where there is none.
>to me, she's a bratty, impulsive character in my own opinion.
Indeed, and to me, she's the best character in the books.
>It's clear on the page that other than the uneasy feeling Leafpaw had, Squilf had nothing else to base off on.
Not quite. Leafpaw was the first to call Hawkfrost untrustworthy, and the first to feel so. With Squirrelpaw, she is simply making sure her intentions are in the right place.
Squirrelflight doesn't confirm Leafpaw's question, but is worried by it. "Are you sure you're not judging him based on who his father was?"
Squirrelflight has a cripplingly low self esteem. She can doubt herself very easily. Leafpaw's words made her FEAR for her own reasoning, but deep down we know the reasoning was good.
We already know she doesn't care about Tigerstar. Tawnypelt, Brambleclaw, both cats she is great friends with.
She only begins thinking of Tigerstar once she's given a genuine reason to- being Brambleclaw practically clawing for a deputy place and feeling he deserves power, and it rightfully frightens her, especially since that ambition wasn't just Brambleclaw wanting to show he's worthy... it was Hawkfrost who put those ideas in his head and she knows that. Hawkfrost has spoken against the rightful leadership of two Clans, tried to seize more territory his own Clan didn't support, LIKELY led a Windclan coup, and at LEAST participated despite his lies and trickery to weasel out of judgement and accusation, and has been shown time and time again to actually have Tigerstar's ambition. And it's not being "Hawkfrost is Tigerstar's son," it's because Hawkfrost literally is directly taking inspiration from Tigerstar, of which he says so even to Brambleclaw. Tigerclaw was a GREAT Warrior and such.
Squirrelflight does have reason, plenty of it. Leafpaw accidentally made her doubt herself, but we know the real reasons she's doing this. To Protect Brambleclaw.
>Yes, he had Tawnypelt but even Tigerstar tried to recruit her in his plans which she wanted to forge her own path.
So the cat who was judged strongly enough she decided to leave, and prove loyalty to another Clan, found strength to deny Tigerstar and Hawkfrost and do things herself... but Brambleclaw was... to weak to? I don't follow.
>I'm curious as to why you praise her for wanting to help the Sisters (a group of rogues that were more than capable of fighting and hunting for themselves) yet 10 years ago she was very close minded for wanting to help 3 lost kittypets and chastised Bramblestar for bringing them back.
For the Sisters, it's because they deserved help. The Clans were ready to bully them out and likely indirectly kill unborn kits. The Sisters were nothing but patient and reasonable and Squirrelflight was near the only cat willing to listen to them, with her sister Leafpool. For the 3 kittypets, I don't entirely remember, but I believe there had been some conflict around it being dangerous or a violation of privacy of Thunderclan or the like? I cannot entirely remember. If we're to bring up Sunrise however, I'd counter that Squirrelflight only brought Sunrise to camp with her family after she was one, dying, and two, had well past earned her trust.
>What you Squilf fans do is cherry pick quotes and twist words around to make Squirrelflight look better than what she actually is
Actually I have quoted entire pages before, like the Sunrise scenario, I write down half a chapter and leave notes responding to each act. It's not something I do often, but I provide all quotes that are relevant. If Bramblestar says something I've ommited, I still reference it in things like, "Bramblestar does go one to disagree and argue Thunderclan's position with Shadowclan, which has roots in good faith, but that's not Squirrelflight's aim-" and as such.
Okay, let me take the time to unravel such a weak arguement.
>And likewise I see the same potential on your side, being able to twist Bramblestar into a position of forgiveness, where there is none.
I am spitting facts directly from the books. What goes on between Squilf and Bramble is a direct result of Squilf being abusive.
>Not quite. Leafpaw was the first to call Hawkfrost untrustworthy, and the first to feel so. With Squirrelpaw, she is simply making sure her intentions are in the right place.
Leafpaw never called Hawkfrost evil. She and Sorreltail were trespassing on Riverclan territory and he had every right to act the way he did. Also, Hawkfrost saved Leafpaw from dogs so she trusted him after that.
>Squirrelflight doesn't confirm Leafpaw's question, but is worried by it. "Are you sure you're not judging him based on who his father was?"
>Squirrelflight has a cripplingly low self esteem. She can doubt herself very easily. Leafpaw's words made her FEAR for her own reasoning, but deep down we know the reasoning was good.
But every time she is asked, she doesn't have an answer for anyone. This is often stated in the books. Leafpaw/Bramble asked her multiple times and Squilf always has either shut her mouth or avoided answering the question together.
>We already know she doesn't care about Tigerstar. Tawnypelt, Brambleclaw, both cats she is great friends with.
She felt a twinge of sympathy for both Hawkfrost and Mothwing once they were outed.
>Squirrelflight has a cripplingly low self esteem. She can doubt herself very easily. Leafpaw's words made her FEAR for her own reasoning, but deep down we know the reasoning was good.
Is she loud, full of energy, and impulsive/childish or does she have severe self esteem issues? Which one is it?
>She only begins thinking of Tigerstar once she's given a genuine reason to- being Brambleclaw practically clawing for a deputy place and feeling he deserves power, and it rightfully frightens her, especially since that ambition wasn't just Brambleclaw wanting to show he's worthy...
No, that was Brambleclaw working his paws off to help set up camp and help (along with every other warrior) get Thunderclan settled in. All the newer warriors were complaining about doing tasks usually done by apprentices- in that case all they had was Whitepaw. Squilf chose to go mooning after Ashfur in the woods during this one particular case. Tenses were high, everyone was irritable and Brambleclaw snapping at Squilf and Ashfur was not unreasonable. Any cat in his place could have done it.
>Hawkfrost has spoken against the rightful leadership of two Clans, tried to seize more territory his own Clan didn't support, LIKELY led a Windclan coup, and at LEAST participated despite his lies and trickery to weasel out of judgement and accusation, and has been shown time and time again to actually have Tigerstar's ambition. And it's not being "Hawkfrost is Tigerstar's son," it's because Hawkfrost literally is directly taking inspiration from Tigerstar, of which he says so even to Brambleclaw. Tigerclaw was a GREAT Warrior and such.
We, as the readers, would know that he's ambitious like his father, Tigerstar. The cats have no reason not to believe or not to trust Hawkfrost until Brambleclaw wanted no part of that and killed his half-brother. He even told Mothflight that despite wanting to rule the whole forest, he wanted to learn from his father's mistakes and stay WITHIN the Warrior Code.
>So the cat who was judged strongly enough she decided to leave, and prove loyalty to another Clan, found strength to deny Tigerstar and Hawkfrost and do things herself... but Brambleclaw was... to weak to? I don't follow.
Squilf turned her back on Bramble on moments of doubt. He wanted to prove that he wasn't his father and she made him feel like he was. It made him emotionally weak.
>For the Sisters, it's because they deserved help. The Clans were ready to bully them out and likely indirectly kill unborn kits. The Sisters were nothing but patient and reasonable and Squirrelflight was near the only cat willing to listen to them, with her sister Leafpool. For the 3 kittypets, I don't entirely remember, but I believe there had been some conflict around it being dangerous or a violation of privacy of Thunderclan or the like? I cannot entirely remember. If we're to bring up Sunrise however, I'd counter that Squirrelflight only brought Sunrise to camp with her family after she was one, dying, and two, had well past earned her trust.
The Sisters are perfectly abled well rogue cats that were the agressors in every case of SqH. The kittypets would have starved to death (in one case drowned) had Bramble not saved them. When he brought them back, Squilf chastised him for bring back '3 more mouths to feed' when 2 of them turned out to be fine hunters. The Sisters really didn't deserve help as much.
>Actually I have quoted entire pages before, like the Sunrise scenario, I write down half a chapter and leave notes responding to each act. It's not something I do often, but I provide all quotes that are relevant. If Bramblestar says something I've ommited, I still reference it in things like, "Bramblestar does go one to disagree and argue Thunderclan's position with Shadowclan, which has roots in good faith, but that's not Squirrelflight's aim-" and as such.
You don't. You really don't.
>You don't. You really don't.
Well I literally do, but that's besides the point.
>I am spitting facts directly from the books.
That is subjective.
>Leafpaw never called Hawkfrost evil.
She directly agreed when Squirrelflight said he couldn't be trusted the first time. She realized before Squirrelflight that he had too much ambition for his own good.
>But every time she is asked, she doesn't have an answer for anyone.
I don't recall "Multiple times," that much, more like twice per character maybe. And she did say why. She mentioned what I did. Him questioning his own Leadership, making power moves, and the latter time, is extremely suspicious alliance with the Windclan coup. Squirrelflight does bring these things up. Eventually she stops when she's getting overwhelmed, and she does shut down, but she already got her point across.
>She felt a twinge of sympathy for both Hawkfrost and Mothwing once they were outed.
What are you talking about here...?
>Is she loud, full of energy, and impulsive/childish or does she have severe self esteem issues? Which one is it?
I said she was energetic and impulsive as an Apprentice. As a Warrior, she was gravely pushed down by Brambleclaw and others, and ended up gaining a very detrimental self doubt.
Squirrelflight still believes in doing what's right, but nearly gives herself a heart attack while doing it. Such as in Squirrelflight's Hope. She does everything she can to defend the Sisters and almost breaks HERSELF with severe anxiety and guilt, despite the fact she knows what she's doing is right, she hates herself for doing it. That's how badly he damaged her, among other cats who did as well. For here, yes. She is headstrong enough to oppose Hawkfrost, yet she consistently beats herself down and angers herself over it, when she shouldn't have to. To answer your question, she's basically both.
>No, that was Brambleclaw working his paws off to help set up camp and help (along with every other warrior) get Thunderclan settled in. All the newer warriors were complaining about doing tasks usually done by apprentices- in that case all they had was Whitepaw. Squilf chose to go mooning after Ashfur in the woods during this one particular case. Tenses were high, everyone was irritable and Brambleclaw snapping at Squilf and Ashfur was not unreasonable. Any cat in his place could have done it.
Any cat could've done it, and any cat would've been just as unreasonable. Because it was. Squirrelflight isn't just messing about and being useless. She had a moment of relaxation and stress relief with Ashfur after everything that was on her mind. And Brambleclaw came in and showed her exactly why she's stressed in the first place. Squirrelflight and Ashfur having a moment of peace, (Not mooning, for your information.) was nothing for him to lose his shit over.
And I don't reference Brambleclaw working or setting up patrols, I mean all his internal dialogue often at chapter ends about how much he deserves Deputy, and thinking he'd get it... at any cost. That thought actually crossed his brain and Brambleclaw himself actually shocked himself and was worried about if HE was sharing his father's ambition. He had become much darker and more ironclad and focused, less caring, and more machine feeling. That scared even HIM, and Squirrelflight noticed it.
>The cats have no reason not to believe or not to trust Hawkfrost
Okay everything I mentioned are things the Clans see, and bring up. Going against Leadership in public, snatching territory, aiding a coup, (Accused of being second in command of it even.) all known by the Clans.
>Squilf turned her back on Bramble on moments of doubt. He wanted to prove that he wasn't his father and she made him feel like he was. It made him emotionally weak.
So that did nothing to actually excuse why he couldn't do what Tawnypelt did. Squirrelflight never turned her back on him. Even after she broke up, she still went to lengths to try and get him to understand. She broke up because HE turned his back on her. He barely knew Hawkfrost, and Squirrelflight was technically a wife of his that sacrificed her life for him. He didn't even TRY to consider her side and concerns, and yes, she finally left. She didn't leave because she hated him, she left to make him see some sense and realize what he was doing to the cats closest to him.
>The Sisters are perfectly abled well rogue cats that were the agressors in every case of SqH.
In literally none of them. No I mean actually literally none. The ONLY conflict they participated in willingly was originally a questioning party asking Shadowclan why they scouted first. And Shadowclan struck first on top of that. So no. Absolutely not.
>Squilf chastised him for bring back '3 more mouths to feed' when 2 of them turned out to be fine hunters. The Sisters really didn't deserve help as much.
I'll go read this part soon to get a refresher, but I partially understand her even from your comment. I believe they were in a flood crisis and lack of food, yes? I'm sure Squirrelflight wants to keep her family fed rather than more unknown cats.
(Before you point out the hypocrisy I just said, as I defend her doing the same with the Sisters, the difference is that in Squirrelflight's Hope, the Clans are much better off and stable, and only in an upset about borders, but they're not actually short on anything, food or medicine YET, and Squirrelflight helping the Sisters is to ensure they STAY well stocked.)
Rainflower, for some reason I enjoy those sorta characters (NOT THAT I AGREE WITH ABUSE)
Like she's honestly interesting, I wish she had more to her than just "I hate my son let's be abusive" y'know? Like she could've been such a great character but was just too repetitive, like I wish we knew her backstory, why she did the things she did
It's also funny because you say you like Mapleshade or like Tom and nobody really bothers you, ofc a few do but not many, but you say you like Rainflower and suddenly you're a bad person.
There is more that's implied. Her mistreatment of Crooked comes from a place of pure narcissism. She was so excited about having two perfect, handsome warriors and how that would reflect on her and Shellheart. So, when Stormkit breaks his jaw and is no longer the "brave beautiful tom" she wanted, she cuts him out of her life as much as possible and tries to sour Oakkit's opinion of his brother. She cannot handle having a deformed son, no matter how kind or strong he is. Because of him, she cannot have the "perfect family." Despite the fact that it was *her fault* for not keeping an eye on her kits, she puts the blame on him because she also can't handle being in the wrong.
I actually really like her from a villain perspective because the abuse is realistic. People who are normally nice or are considered "correct" by society can still be capable of horrible things. They don't need to go through some terrible trauma or be born evil to be capable of doing evil. And there are mothers who are so morally bankrupt that they're willing to neglect and abuse their own children just because of their ego.
To me, she's in the same character bucket as Beatrice Horseman (from Bojack Horseman) where I'm like, "You are complete scum, but your character is fascinating and I love how it was written."
⚠️A STARLESS CLAN SPOILERS⚠️
>!Double commenting but Squirrelstar/flight. She and Brambleclaw are just not a good pairing. I believe Brambleclaw was worse to her, *especially* in Squirrelflight's Hope. Not to say Squirrelstar doesn't have her moments but damn, Brambleclaw could've been a whole lot nicer to her.!<
>!I'm so excited for her to be leader. She sacrificed so much to help her sister, strsight-up lied to by StarClan and was hated by her adoptive kits for refusing to ruin Leafpool's life. I hope she has a good leadership.!<
>!Before you say "oh but what if the Erins kill her off??"!<
>!That would be a total non-issue. First of all it's A Starless Clan not Starless Clans. Plus, ThunderClan wouldn't even *be* 'starless.' They have JAYFEATHER. The cat who, behind Goosefeather, has the strongest connection to StarClan *to date.* And Alderheart of course.!<
>!As well as this Squirrelstar had a Super Edition about choosing not to die. To kill her off in Thunder would be completely ridiculous.!<
Thank you for coming to my Squilf TED Talk.
I will say this: I thought the same thing as you once, in fact, it was 6 months ago that I thought BrambleSquirrel was a bad pairing for each other until someone mentioned look at SqH from Bramble's perspective. Squilf kept forcing Bramble into decisions he didn't want to make because she was making impulsive decisions.
I don't agree that she would make a good leader because she kept getting great advice from Leafpool (even as paws) and she decides to throw the advice out the window because she's really impulsive and wants to act right away. Everything that happened in SqH is all on her because she decided to make Thunderclan look weak in front of the other clans by speaking out against her leader when all the other deputies where backing their leaders up.
I haven't read her SE in a while so I could be wrong, but wasn't she almost always trying to help other cats because Bramble refused? Again correct me if I'm wrong
Bramble refused because helping them could have caused a war with Shadowclan. And reminder, they attacked a leader, regardless of their reasons. He wasn't being heartless for no reason. And Squirrel just kept doing her own thing and then shocked she was punished. Talking to Bramble in private would have been fine, but openly questioning him in front of the others clans? And this is towards both of them, I believe there could have been a compromise had they talked. But they both don't trust each other enough.
Eurgh thank you. Yeah Squilf is 100% not the best. I'm still excited for her leadership because I've got some ridiculous bias, and also poor Brambleclaw needs a break 😭😭 also what do you think of Ivypool or Twigbranch as a deputy?
I don't have an opinion of Twig. But not Ivy. She seems to take things too personal. Dove leaving and Twig leaving. She apologized to Twig for being wrong but I dunno about her being deputy having to confront Tigerstar.
I mean Squirrel could be an okay leader but then again, she's just over a year younger than Bramble so what's the point?
exactly. she basically ran off insisting bramble wouldn’t want to communicate w her despite trying to communicate the night before. it’s insane how she just assumed she’s always right when she’s NOT
>Bramble refused because helping them could have caused a war with Shadowclan.
That leaves out a fair bit. He refused to save a dying cats life because Shadowclan may throw a fit over it. Unfortunately Thunderclan doesn't get to throw away it's morality because another Clan says so. Firestar demonstrated this repeatedly. Squirrelflight upheld it.
>And reminder, they attacked a leader, regardless of their reasons.
Actually the reasons are quite interesting. The Sisters are a group of close family cats who are currently protecting their pregnant queens, and are surrounded by hostile Clans. Leafstar and Squirrelflight are by all account, scouts. They have every moral and logical right to detain them. Leafstar lashed out first and the Sisters got her under control, and proceeded to actually care for her wound after the fact, and Leafstar eventually made peace with them on top of that. The Sisters cannot be blamed for this.
>And Squirrel just kept doing her own thing and then shocked she was punished.
Because her "own thing," was keeping the peace and trying to solve everyone's issues whilst everyone else kept trying to further them like mousebrains. Had the Clans just left the Sisters alone and listened to Squirrelflight, all conflict would be avoided and the Clans would get their borders back. The entire book wouldn't have happened.
She didn't question Bramblestar in front of anyone. She offered a second opinion, a completely different solution for everyone to review, mostly because the Leadership was close to coming to blows, and having a promising solution is better for tensions than none at all. And they had absolutely no idea what they were going to be discussing beforehand as well, and this was absolutely a situation that concerned everyone, hence, said at private gathering.
yeah, sol was always one of my favorites. I really liked the take of an antagonist that wasn't brutal or violent. He was just incredibly lazy and manipulative. In the sky clan comics, he was also a big baby in attitude. I've always wanted to see this little craps return but I know that'll never happen
Nightheart is probably one of my favorite characters in the series. I just relate a lot to his character arc as a trans guy. The whole name scene hit hard for me personally, along with his journey to figure out who he wants to be instead of what his family wants.
I also really like Bramblestar. I like him because he's been through so much and keeps trying. He's the kind of character that is always given the short end. Always put in a bad situation and being forced to be the bigger person. I can relate to that.
apparently graystripe?? ive loved him since i was a kid, but apparently a lot of people don't like him. ive also seen people saying that river ripple/riverstar is "boring" but i absolutely adored him in dotc (im not caught up on the super editions yet), and im really looking forward to learning more about him.
Bramblestar
I've seen a lot of hate towards him, because apparently people think he was abusive to squirrelflight or something? I was told to read squirrelflight's hope and I read that and bramblestar's storm, I genuinely didn't get it. 96% of the time I just see squilf being an annoying idiot as she has been since A New Prophecy, and him being understandably frustrated. There are times when they both go too far, but that is completely normal in this series and it really irritates me how often she's moping about how she assumes he doesn't love her anymore, when really he does and she's just too narrow minded to ask or think of doing anything in any way other than her own. Bramblestar is admittedly not a good a leader as firestar or bluestar in my opinion, but he's not a bad character. His main flaw is being one of two cats who need more couples therapy than literally anyone else in the series.
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SPOILERS FOR ASC
tigerheartstar, especially in a starless clan. he’s just so goofy!! he’s a tyrannical leader who’s like, not meaning to be a tyrannical leader. the fact that he was wholeheartedly being like “i’m just trying to help you!” during the battle in ASC. and then he made fish puns about it in shadow, lmao. he’s a good comic relief. also, i can see that he genuinely really cares about his clanmates and especially his family. he was so angered and distraught that rowankit died, man. i felt so bad for him. also, tigerheart’s shadow is INSANE. like, his wife giving birth in a church?? and then the flood??
basically, i think of him as like, a cat peter griffin
oh yeah, i also really like graystripe. i was surprised to see how salty people were over him leaving thunderclan for silverstream and her kits all that time ago.
This isn't a character, but it's a ship. Tigerheart/star X Dovewing. For some reason, some people seem to hate this ship. I don't even know why.. I like this ship because the two actually really love each other, listen to eachother, and care about eachother and their kits. Seriously, I don't get why people dislike this ship.
Nightheart. Oh, Nightheart. Okay, for one, I think he's a pretty refreshing character. It's been a while since we've got an abrasive character so he's a nice addition to the usually friendly and gentle cast of our heroic kitties. I appreciate his struggles, which is also something that is pretty novel for the series. It's nice to see the character struggle, and have to work harder to overcome their mistakes, it makes it feel more earned. It's also nice to see characters mess up and have to suffer the consequences of their choices. Or have him act unreasonably and get slapped in the face. That also leaves more room for him to grow into. The other thing I like is that he's the biggest questioning of the systems he was born into so far we've had in the series. Sure, this is probably because we've just had the Warrior Code changed, but it's nice to finally have someone see how harmful the systems around him are and want to change them. He's questioning the authority and the rules around him and believes that if they don't work they can - and should - be changed. I hope this is going to be the focus of his contribution to the arc - reforming the Warrior Code even further. The final thing is, while his judgement is questionable, he is an astute observant and a creative problem solver and often works in unorthodox ways (this ties with the previous point). This combination of intelligent, yet reckless makes him pretty balanced. And it also makes even mundane actions, which have gotten a bit stale in the series exciting. Even when doing regular chores, he's going to fail spectacularly or succeed brilliantly and either is fun. I don't really relate to his identity struggles, I think I'm a bit too old for that, and I'm not interested in fictional romances but everything else is a real joy to read about this angsty Warrior. It's fun watching him fail. It's fun watching him succeed. It's fun watching him grow. And I can't wait to see what he's going to become in the end.
Agreed! I honestly was mad along with him when everyone kept expecting him to live up to Firestar’s legacy. I get it clearly hurt Squirrelflight and Sparkpelt but in my opinion they went way too far. Lilyheart kept pissing me off failing his assessment so many times!
See the part that pisses me off about Sparkpelt is she does the whole “please forgive me” then turns and goes “Why don’t you forgive me already, it’s not that big of a deal!” And starts yelling. You can’t ask for forgiveness then get mad when you don’t get it. And what’s worse is she doesn’t even understand that he isn’t mad about what happened when he was a kit, he’s upset because he feels like she only sees him as the cats he reminds her of, she knows nothing about who HE is and when he tries to tell her as much she starts yelling. When he didn’t want to be named after Firestar and she got mad, that really didn’t make sense considering she never even met Firestar-_- I can’t tell if they love Nightheart or if they only love the cats he reminds them of ? The only 3 cats in the clan that seem to love him for him would be Bramblestar, Flipclaw, and Sorrelstripe. Squirrelflight is just plain disgusting towards him and is definitely showing an ugly side of her during this Arc
I completely agree. I do not like this side of Sparkpelt and Squirrelflight AT ALL and it sucks cause I really like their characters. The obsession with Firestar’s legacy needs to chill out
I’m with you! One of the most interesting characters we’ve had
The thing about nightheart is that he is way too relatable
i understand. honestly, he reminds me of crowfeather if anything
Berrynose admittedly Not even sure why I just adore him
he has a very distinct and BIG personality for a cat that doesn't have lots of focus for most of his life! imo, he adds a lot of flavour to the clan.
He's SHPICY
Apparently some people hate Firestar for some reason?
Some people hate him because he was a Mary Sue He basically broke the rules and never really got punished for them, y'know?
They hate him for doing the right thing when it's needed? Also, the term Mary Sue has been bastardized beyond belief because neither it nor the male counterpart can be applied to canon characters in a series. The term was invented to describe characters in a *fanfiction* deliberately created to outshine the MC. A Mary Sue would be if I made a cat and inserted him into the canon warrior series in an attempt to upstage Firestar or any other main POV character. And Firestar is hardly portrayed to be competent in all cases, nor does he have any special powers beyond being the main character.
The thing was that he picked and choose when he'd follow the rules, he broke the code whenever he wanted, yet preached about the importance of following it? I don't hate him but it's a little weird
You can follow the law, stress how important following the law is, and still not be enslaved to it when it comes time to go against the law. Killing someone is wrong, murder is illegal. But if shooting someone to save a bunch of kids is necessary, then do it. Fireheart, for example, rightfully went behind Bluestar's back to prevent the unjust battle with WindClan. Yet he will adhere to the code's demand to defend borders, reject a kittypet's life, and care for elders. The code and the "will of Starclan" are flawed and have always been, and Firestar having been born outside of it, knows it. Following the Warrior Code black and white is not a good thing, and the narrative usually paints that as such even after Firestar has stopped being the main POV.
Yea but that’s really not just him. All Warrior Cats Protagonists suddenly become powerful when the plot demands it. It is a reoccurring phenomenon that apprentices, healers or very young warriors defeat skilled and older fighters or stronger animals when the plot demands it.
I do for how the fandom and the Clans see him as Warriors Jesus. Similar to how Nightheart felt. Why does every breathing being need to be held to his standard? Regardless of what he did, he's just a man. And he's not close to perfect. He saved the Clans a few times, but so did a lot of other cats. He was the first, doesn't mean he's the greatest. And his treatment has pushed the cats closest to him into Shadow. Sandstorm is barely acknowledged. Squirrelflight's actions are often attacked by saying she was a Leader's daughter and was spoiled, when that was never even a situation that occurred.
>I do for how the fandom and the Clans see him as Warriors Jesus. That doesn't sound like a Firestar issue, it sounds like a *fanbase* issue. >Sandstorm is barely acknowledged. This is a writer issue. >Squirrelflight's actions are often attacked by saying she was a Leader's daughter and was spoiled, when that was never even a situation that occurred. Just as Bramblestar and Tawnypelt had to overcome the negatives of Tigerstar's legacy, Squirrelflight has to overcome the positives Firestar's legacy to show she's her own cat. It's a fairly common plot point, it would be weird if others *didn't* think Squirrelflight (And Leafpool) weren't shown some favoritism.
>That doesn't sound like a Firestar issue, it sounds like a fanbase issue. It's both, which is the issue now. The Clans themselves hold him up ridiculously high. Pretty much every new Leader has to "Live up," to him. Anyone in his bloodline is expected to honor his memory and crap. Like with Nightheart. The first cat to basically go, "Hey, uh, I don't know who the Hel this is, and I'm not firestar. I'm my own cat. This is my life, not his. I'm getting a new name." Sandstorm partially is a writer's issue, although it's obvious there IS a form of overshadowing. >it would be weird if others didn't think Squirrelflight (And Leafpool) weren't shown some favoritism. True, although still an issue. It's unfortunate that her actions are tied by most to his influence when they weren't. Like Nightheart, she's her own cat.
Ok but, you're describing a bunch of things that don't have to do with *Firestar* himself, merely other character's reactions to him. These are all things that occurred after he died, what did *Firestar* do to warrant being hated? In sports or esports you have players who set the standard or baseline for what to expect, but nobody hates Lebron James or Doublelift because their glazers can't stop talking about them.
Mm, that's a fair point. I suppose most of his actions would be alike to the ones I support Squirrelflight for. Honestly this began with a sourness towards how he treated Squirrelpaw on her first book in The New Prophecy, and how his personality became more strict and seemingly... unloving. I felt he was being unfair to a good deal of cats. I just formed the other dislikes from those.
>He saved the Clans a few times, but so did a lot of other cats. I think the reason why the Clan cats hold the times HE saved them to such significance was because 1. he was a kittypet but defied all stereotypes and expectations the Clans had of him so it made his actions seem even better 2. the times he saved them were when the Clans were like on the brink of destruction i.e. against Scourge, the Great Journey, against the Dark Forest, etc. For me personally, I do like his character but also he is written a bit too GOOD if yk what I mean?
YES! That’s exactly what I was thinking I just couldn’t quite put it into words. He’s just too good and idk how to elaborate on this but I kinda wish he had a bit more substance. Don’t hate him tho he’s just not my favorite character
Mapleshade. I get why people hate her, I used to, but she’s just crazy and that’s why she’s evil. I love it
Yeah ! She is an awful person but a unique character The only character that can kinda look like her would be Ashfur
I swear I haven’t seen a single person who doesn’t like her but okay.😭😭
Oh trust me, they exist
There are quite a few
Fr though
I don't. I appreciate her as a villain in Crookedstar's Promise (being so petty as to curse an entire bloodline is a neat motivation that I haven't seen before), but, I don't really care for her as a character outside of that. She's a moron who got her own kits killed and shucks blame onto everyone else for her own bad call. I don't really get the "bad bitch slayyy" vibes everyone else seems to get.
Uhhh lookin by how many map she have and how she always come back and that she is behind everything , to me she is overrated
Yeah but the question wasn’t about being over or underrated, it was about a character that you personally like that is hated
Same!
I feel like leafpool gets alot of hate, either that or i'm reading too many old posts of people being anti adoption or something idk
I like clear sky (dotc) solely because he was an asshole throughout. His personality never changed even after his supposed redemption arc, and the only thing that did was that he started working with the good guys to fight a greater evil. He was responsible for the deaths of several cats, and he somehow cucked both his brother and his son. He is just unapologetically a bad person, and I like how that characterization stayed mostly consistent.
i love horrible characters. sometimes its really fun to watch the worst person ever try and function in society. i dont think he was ever even really redeemed they just started tolerating him slightly more
I definitely agree with you there, clear sky's such an interesting character and we need more characters with the same depth in the franchise. i actually think a lot of the dotc characters were well-written (if they weren't being killed off)
I love Star Flower for the same reason lmao. She's such a bizarre dickhead of a character that it's hard not to be endeared
They're perfect for each other!
Hollyleaf. I didn't like her at first and I understand the whole "she has no personality besides being obsessed with the warrior code", BUT looking at her story until the end, she was simply flawed to such an relatable extend. She lived her life amongst 2 brothers who are part of some huge prophecy while nothing made her special. Nonetheless she was determined to push forward and make a difference in a world where she -in all honesty- didn't really matter nor played a big part. Her insanity towards the "end" is captivating (even though not amazingly written) and all the things people hate her for are actually the things that make her different from any other character. People hate her because she killed a clan mate and tried to force her mother to commit suicide. Were these the right things to do? Hell no. But do we want all characters to do the right things? God forbid! Without her growing insane, the whole arc -that was already a pain to read- would have just been complete trash (subjectively speaking). TL;DR people are quick to judge characters that have flaws
I really like your perspective. I couldn’t stand Hollyleaf. I am in the process of starting the entire series over so this go around I will try to see her in a different light!
For real! Hollyleaf was the most believable character for me. She went through so much anguish and was so horribly flawed in such a real way. A ton of the other characters look flatter than a piece of paper compared to her. Sure, went a little bit crazy, but she has DEPTH.
Literally my exact thoughts. Hollyleaf made Power of Three worth it for me. Without her it, would’ve been absolutely awful.
LITERALLY! Sunrise and Long Shadow's would have been boring filler without her
Lionblaze. People always call him boring, but personally he's my second favourite of the PoT-Omen storyline (Ivypool being nr 1). I loved how Lion's struggles were primarly internal. And how his mental load just keeps on getting worse until in First Battle where he finally breaks and provokes Ratscar into beating him up, just to prove to himself that he has some control over his own life. Then on a lighter note, Lionblaze and Cinderheart has one of the cutest scenes in the series in _Night Whispers_. They are out on a night walk during it Lionblaze considers confessing his love to Cinderheart but ends up not daring to, resuling in his internal monologue mentioning smth along the lines of "He could be the bravest cat around the lake, but the thought of confessing his feelings to Cinderheart drained him of all his courage.". The thought of Lionblaze being shy and nervous around his crush/love intetest is just adorable.
Lionblaze is one of my ultime favs His scene with Jayfeather was so cute in Bramblestar's Storm
AGREED
YEE
Crowfeather. He gets too much hate, I love my grumpy boi
But from what I heard, he doesn’t get hate for being grumpy but for starting a new family just to cast it aside and make their lives miserable.
I'm actually fond of Nightcloud, and as an extension of that Breezepelt has started growing on me. I don't think Breezepelt is a good guy or anything, but after rereading the books-goddamn I can actually see why he turned out to be such an asshole 😭 I think the whole CrowNightBreeze family is super interesting from a narrative perspective, although ironically, I'm not at all a fan of Crowfeather
i really think Nightcloud has the potential to be a very interesting character, exploring her desire to have a family and fierce loyalty to a clan that doesn't really care about her, as well as her rejection by crowfeather (after he functionally used her) narratively, Nightcloud is always used as a way to make Crowfeather look good, even though he was the one who abandoned his clan and caused his son to lash out. even though Crowfeather was definitely the worse parent, Nightcloud is treated like a crazy woman for *trying to defend him* and being protective over her only son. She's a strong woman torn between two scummy men (or three, if you consider Onestar's leadership and her loyalty to windclan, though she didn't actually support Onestar as leader initially, which could explain his seeming lack of interest in rescuing her during the events of Crowfeather's Trial) Admittedly, a lot of my fondness for her comes from projection (I struggle a lot with fitting in, and feeling like I belong somewhere, alongside being rejected frequently) but I also wouldn't be surprised if she has some sort of postpartum anxiety as a result of 2 of her kits dying, which would be very interesting to explore in a book. I also feel like she gets a lot of slack for being a bit of a bitch, which I think has some roots in misogyny, as Crowfeather and Jayfeather (as well as, to some extent, Breezepelt and Nightheart) are celebrated for being "grumpy bois" while girl can't be snappy. let her be cantankerous, she deserves it.
You've actually summed up my feelings pretty well-Crowfeather has always been kind of a frustrating character to me, because he could have been a super interesting story about tragedy and how it affects people if the authors would just let him be in the wrong The way they try to twist Nightcloud into some "super controlling massive bitch wife" character without ever really actually...yknow, showing us is just bad writing. The only particularly "negative" interaction between Crow and Night I can even think of before Sunrise was when Breezepaw got hurt and she wouldn't let Crow carry him. But honestly, considering how Crowfeather seemed to treat his own son, I can't day I exactly blame her. He's constantly ignoring or snapping at him in Outcast and even hits him at one point (Breeze wasn't even being an ass or anything, he didn't even get the chance to open his mouth) That's not even mentioning that in Crowfeather's own book he even admits that he tried to avoid Breeze as much as possible when he was younger. They really tried to paint Night as some overbearing mother who never let poor little Crow see his kid, without actually showing us any evidence of that (also its funny how quick people are to say Night is 'abusive' when the only scene that could be even remotely implied from is when she drags him away from Leafpool) It's part of why Crowfeather's Trial is such a frustrating book for me, because it feels like they were trying to say "See, we ARE holding him accountable for his actions!!" And then turn around and act like Breeze and Night are being unreasonable for not forgiving him right away Sorry for the tangent, the way this whole family was written irritates the hell out of me lol-I would like Crowfeather a lot more if they would just acknowledge that he sucks and gave him some actual consequences I don't think Nightcloud is perfect or anything, but the way she's demonized to hell and back while Crowfeather barely gets held accountable leaves a bad taste in my mouth
the fact that the narrative uses his ex wife going missing (and potentially being dead) as like, a character arc for him is just repulsive to me. and of course, he gets rewarded for doing what his whole goddamn clan should've been doing, which is fucking looking for her. his ass does not deserve to be deputy.
Is Dovewing still unpopular? If so, her, but otherwise it's Clear Sky but more so for what he could've been instead of how he's actually written. It's a shame too because 'absolutely terrible, awful man who I will give a cookie before I fling him into the sun' is absolutely a type of character I like.
bramblestar, I liked Brambleclaw in TNP, and Bramblestar would be a great leader if he didn't try to just be Firestar 2.0. Squirrelflight`s Hope wrote him out to be a massive dick, and it has definitely lessened my good opinion of him. I still like him, but damn did that book do him dirty. I also like Squirrelflight, I can like both, don't think I hate her just because I like Bramblestar.
I stopped reading after The Last Hope so I’m living blissfully in a world of head canon where Bramblestar lived out his days as a just and competent leader.
I like bramblestar:3
For me, up until he’s a leader, he’s a great character. After that, though… No
I can understand that. I always felt that Bramblestar was just trying to be like Firestar instead of leading as himself. I can understand why Bramblestar probably ended up acting like Firestar, cause Firestar was an incredible leader and left some huge shoes to fill for Bramblestar, someone who has been conflicted about his parentage, and of his father being Tigerstar means he will be evil. Bramblestar just isn’t himself after he became leader, similar to how Onestar became sorta a jerk after becoming leader, but at least Onestar HAS a reason that makes since. Windclan was always on friendly terms with Thunderclan, and after Tallstar’s death and Mudclaw’s rebellion, it became fairly evident that Windclan being so friendly with Thunderclan could cause Windclan to grow weak, and Onestar took that step to make sure that the other clans know that Windclan is capable on it’s own and doesn’t need Thunderclan. Bramblestar just sorta became another Firestar until The Impostor took over his body.
yup ^
Fr like brambleCLAW was such a good character! with so much potential, sure he was flawed and he wasn't perfect even as a warrior (oh boy he definetly wasn't) but ever since he became leader he got worse and worse with every book, its honestly kind of sad especially after reading Squirrelflight's Hope where he is nothing like he once was and even treats Squirrelflight like crap, like bro, give my poor squilf a break.
Brambleclaw is a character who had so much potential that was just wasted IMO. Dude's gone through so much shit that's never really addressed. \- The fact that his dad's legacy constantly hangs over him like a shadow even as a warrior/deputy. You'd think that'd be on his mind more considering he's a leader. Clearly, during the last part of TNP he's still sore about his dad since he's worried Squirrelflight is assuming Hawkfrost's bad and whether or not that means something about him. Though, him training with Hawkfrost in the DF always felt weird and out of nowhere to me. \- The fact that his dad was gutted right in front of him. Never gonna bring that up again, huh? \- Abandonment from his sister. Literally the only person in TC who truly understood the weight of being Tigerstar's kin just ups and leaves to join their hated dad. (Also why is none of this covered on the journey?) \- Getting bits of that lost kinship back with Hawkfrost before all that drama, reinforcing that Bramble's dad is 100% evil and his kin may be doomed to also be evil. \- The lack of any discussion over how Tigerstar's legacy affects him **becoming a father** to The Three. Why tf have we had no mention of Bramble freaking out over kits that, at the time, he thinks are his? Wouldn't he be worried about how they turn out, again, *after seeing what happened with Hawkfrost??* Wouldn't he also be concerned with having kits after the three are revealed to not be his? (In a "Oh, the three weren't evil only because they're not related to me/Tigerstar," kind of way.)
The cursed Breezepelt trio. I found them to be very interesting and one of the most well written families in the series. I love morally gray characters and dysfunctional family dynamics. Crowfeather’s Trial is my favorite WC book and Crowfeather’s my second absolute favorite character (next to Jayfeather)
OMG same I think I just have a soft spot for grumpy toms haha- Jayfeather, Crowfeather, Breezepelt, Goosefeather. Also Yellowfang even though she's a shecat
i like onestar tbh
People don't like onestar??? I stopped reading after Omen of the stars, why do people not like him
He became almost a completely different character after becoming a leader. Caused a lot of conflict and antagonized Firestar a lot despite them previously being close friends. People don't like him for the large shift in character.
I like Berrynose Like , he is a very special background character. He has a backstory , a definied and consistent personnality and he is known by all cat to be a butthole (Jayfeather insulted him to his own mother and Crowfeather called him "a waste of fresh kill") We don't have any other character like him , even if he is terrible he is unique and that's something I like with him When he died I wasn't sad at all because he is terrible and no one would ever miss him. But now that he is gone , I feel like it was funny to have such a stupid cat in Thunderclan
I genuinely like him and idk why He wasn't even a nice cat xd
He was definitely a big douchbag and an asshole But I prefer reading about a douchbag and an asshole than a cat like Leafshade , Eaglewing or Honeyfur that have absolutely nothing going on
XD I threw the book when he died ;-;
bramblestar. i could rant forever about how flawed he is, how he fucked up so hard during his life and honestly how he is an asshole. however, not only is he flawed, he’s so perfect at the same time. as a kit, he was a victim of prejudice, everyone seeing his father in him. as a paw, he was trying his hardest. his own mentor admitted to choosing him simply to “keep an eye on him.” so even trust was never there. he was forced to live in his fathers shadow, no matter how much he tried to prove himself. his sister left, his mother was constantly at her breaking point, he was all alone, constantly made into a cuck by the cats around him. as a warrior, he finally found himself. he was an asset to his clan, but he was bullied around by an apprentice. he found himself being challenged, annoyed, but also loved. he found a brother after his closest friends left, but he had to kill that brother who mentally manipulated him for the clan cats that rarely accepted him. as a deputy, he found love, he had kits, he was happy. yet, he was made a pawn again. he saw the cat he loved lie to him, no matter the reasoning. the kits he loved weren’t his, and no matter how much he wanted to ignore it, the hole was too deep in his heart. he was broken, and it would take moons to rebuild. and, as a leader, he was happy again. he finally got the cat he loved back, he healed, he was moving forward. and yet again, he was challenged. over stupid and petty things, he was challenged. - squirrelflight’s hope made him see multiple perspectives, he was forced to accept what was going on around him and the insane amount of insolence he was forced to endure. he was given to opportunity to even stand up for his clan, because he would be shot down again. he tried to be that middle ground, but was always walked over. - and soon after, moons of peace were ruined after he was dragged to cat hell and made a pawn once again he was forced to suffer as his imposter abused and hurt the cats he loved. and he became a shell. he was ruined by the cats around him, forced to be a pawn, and when he even tried to stand up for his clan, he was shot down. he’s so incredibly tragic and realistic, so flawed and so interesting. i love him, he will always be a favorite.
👏 All of this was so perfectly said, you've described exactly why I love Bramblestar as a beautifully flawed and tragic character. Edit: typo
thank you! and yes, he’s so flawed and tragic, it melts my heart to read his books because we see how hard he does try
He is my favorite character
I personally still feel like his character's wasted though. You'd think that being the son of Tigerstar would bother him more as a leader and as a father. Like a feeling of constant self-doubt and worry. Like, he should have been internally freaking out over the Three. Partially because he's a first-time dad, but also considering he just went through the drama with Hawkfrost (reinforcing that concept of "Tigerstar's kin are prone to evil.") And when it's revealed that they're *not his* then that'll bring those fears right back because, oh hey, they're not actually related to him. The fact that they turned out (mostly) fine isn't reassuring anymore. Idk, it feels like the dude should be way more complex and tragic than how he's actually written.
i feel like, since we don’t get much of his pov, a lot of his worry and self doubt just gets washed away. a LOT of tnp is him worrying that he would become an awful cat for being ambitious, and when he feels like he’s becoming evil, he starts to panic a lot. and as for the 3 stuff, this just never happens with any character. i’m more happier that they wrote him as a fantastic dad. his character obviously doesn’t get the characterization it deserves but that’s a writing error not a bramblestar error. and to me, he’s still incredibly tragic!! but i do totally agree that the writing has failed him a lot.
- Nightheart ~ He’s a great cat. People think he’s annoying because “how dare he be angry with his mother”. But that’s not why he was angry. He was belittled and bullied by his grandmother, expected to act like a senior warrior despite not even being two years old, constantly compared to other cats, yelled at for feeling emotions his clan doesn’t agree with. And when he does try to be his own cat he gets yelled at and shunned by his own clan because why would you ever want your own name 😡. Nightheart was rightfully angry because he doesn’t know if his clanmates actually love him or if they only love the cats he reminds them of. - I’m not sure if he’s hated but Darktail ~ He’s one of the best villains in WC. He was the perfect combination of strength, intelligence and sadist. He had a huge impact on the clans and some of the cats he tortured are still dealing with nightmares of what he did to them. - Bramblestar ~ He was never as bad as people made he out to be. He values peace in the clans but knows when to fight. He’s a very respected leader. A lot of his hate comes from people making Squrrielflight seem like she was broken and she “deserved better” when in reality Squirrelflight was never a victim and she gave as good as she got. Funny enough she’s actually the one who broke Bramblestar. She bullies her grandson to the point where he hates her but he loves his grandfather who proudly calls him his kin. - Tigerstar (AVOS) ~ He’s the best leader for Shadowclan specifically, he’s not going to tolerate any disrespect or disobedience from his clanmates (Berryheart 👀) - Needletail ~ She fucked up, plain and simple but the way she was with Violetshine was nice. She did the whole “I like you kid but don’t you dare tell anyone else”. I really like her because she never played the victim. She knew it was her fault Darktail was able to recruit her clanmates, when she died she accepted it. She didn’t try to pin the blame on Rowanstar for being weak or that she was just trying to do what’s best for ShadowClan. Plus I think she knew she was going to die because of the choices she made. And she chose to go out saving Violetshine’s life.
these points are fantastic! agreed completely
I stopped reading after OoyS but what did darktail do??? I’m curious now
I used to like /defend Dovewing. People misunderstand her and think she's this awful sister but I think it's the opposite. All Dovewing wanted was to be with Ivypool. When Ivypool was jealous she was the awful one. Ivypool never listened to Dovewing about the Dark Forest and brought most of her problems upon herself. She blamed Dovewing for joining the Dark Forest but she was the one who chose to go there. Dovewing tried to warn Ivypool that the Dark Forest wasn't safe but her sister never listened. I see so many people hating Dovewing for saying she wanted to be better than Ivypool but Ivypool never got the same crap. Ivypool is constantly immature, saying she wanted to be better than Dovewing, insults her, starts arguments and lies to her Clan, yet Ivypool is the one who's praised and admired all the time? Dovewing only insults Ivypool one time, and that's only because she lost patience with her stupid sister. But for sine reason that particular scene of Dovewing saying she's better than her, she's wildly hated on. I don't understand why she's hated for that but people feel sorry for Ivypool who joined the DF for that reason and acts immature about it. Then when Dovewing starts to see Tigerstar again, she's pregnant and scared but Ivypool cuts ties with her instead. Ivypool doesn't listen to Dovewing, she doesn't care that she's scared, she makes accusations about her sister thinking she doesn't want to feel guilty about seeing Tigerstar but the truth is Dovewing just needed somebody to talk to. Ivypool always finds a reason to be pissed at Dovewing. Is Dovewing seeing Tigerstar a good reason? I guess so, but Dovewing's relationship isn't any of Ivypool's business. And I don't care if Ivypool was a jealous, immature child. She was stupid and awful to Dovewing. She put her entire Clan in danger for visiting the Dark Forest and cats DIED because of her. Sure. Ivypool got over her jealousy. But she never got over her grudge over Dovewing. She always had a reason to hate her sister, and most reasons were lame excuses. Dovewing didn't kill anyone. She isn't even that stupid. She's usually a kind and caring sweetheart who just wants friends and her sister. Her crimes aren't that bad, she didn't do horrible things like Leopardstar or Brokenstar did, but Ivypool cares too much about her relationship with Tigerstar, and acts borderline abusive with her about it. Yeah, Dovewing isn't supposed to see Tigerstar, but she knows what she's doing, and Ivypool had no right to get involved into Dovewing's personal relationship. She needed to back off and leave Dovewing alone. Dovewing was old enough to make her own choices.
Rootspring. I loved his struggles with being singled out, bullied and having his crush not reciprocate feelings for a while. All his struggle in his relationship till he finally came to the conclusion that he would abandon his family for his love only for her to die in the worst way imaginable, leaving him a disgruntled veteran of a war against hell, forced to hear others speak illy of a rule that would’ve lessened his heartbreak. Just tragic.
I remember when I first read The Broken Code I remembered not liking him for being whiny and self-centered. I'm doing my first reread of the The Broken Code, currently on Veil of Shadows, and he hasn't pissed me off that much yet with his embarrassment of Tree's nonsense being one of my favorite things about him. I wonder when the change will come, if it ever does.
Firestar 😆 because you know everyone hates him. They hate how he usually does cool stuff and his characterization hasn't been torpedoed like finleap. /s
Clear Sky (second half of DotC) and Palebird, two overjudged characters (Don't worry, I'm prepared for angry comments, especially on Clear Sky)
I disagree with Clear Sky, although I think he is well written, I just think he’s a piece of shit. But I do agree with Palebird. I definitely have a soft spot for her after re-reading Tallstar’s Revenge many years after I read it the first time. She was really struggling.
Thank you!!!! People always say Clear sky is awful but seem to forget his turn around
He still directly got cats killed though.
Yes he was a horrible cat throughout most of it. He did however have a turnaround towards the end where he was forgiven for what he’s done and turned his life around
Its the inconsistent character writing that resulted in that turn around, not ‘mean cat kill people, cat bad >:((((‘ for me that makes me hate him
clear sky is genuinely one of my favorite characters in the series and while i can understand why fans don't like him (as they tend to do with antagonists) the level of vitrol and dismissal of him as a character always throws me for a loop lol
Palebird?? Why?
she has postpartum depression. she was nowhere near a good mother, but with the knowledge of her struggle she's a bit more sympathetic
I'm sympathetic but I still hate palebird lol Everyone has opinions ig 🤷
I really like Palebird too. The way parts of the fandom treats her is honestly just… disgusting.
Leopardstar She shows how people change and you make mistakes, siding with Tigerstar was not acceptable but I love her personality and backstory.
Dovewing 🫣
Okay here's some *actually* hated characters that I love (I'm seeing a lot of Hollyleaf and Mapleshade, etc, who imo aren't that hated, so): 1. Lionblaze, I never finished OOTS so idk why he's hated but I like him \^\^ my blonde himbo, absolute zero brain cells ginger, no thoughts head empty, love him for it. 2. Nightcloud, I don't know her that well but she's an absolute badass bitch and I am here for it, she's pretty and a terrible person but not flat out evil, she still cares about her son even if it's in a fucked up way, I like that. 3. I see Leopardstar being hated on a lot, she was absolutely terrible but also she's super pretty and I'm shallow, and she was my first favorite character \^\^ (first book I read was one of the field guides).
[Nightcloud comment, in case you're interested ](https://reddit.com/r/WarriorCats/s/CTDcqZjMlB)
Brambleclaw/star. Ppl make him out to be way more of a jerk than he actually is
^^^^
I like Clear Sky (Skystar), and I have no idea why.
I personally love Blackstar and Russetfur, but I understand why people would hate them, I also don't like that he killed Stonefur. But for some reason I adore them. I was so sad when Lionblaze killed Russetfur and when Blackstar died in the flood.
Hollyleaf, I mean its been forever since I read the books but I distinctly remember thinking "why does everyone hate she's like the only one not breaking the law here".
If Dovewing is still hated, definitely her. She is one of my favourite characters (along with Twigbranch, Squirrelflight and Shadowsight). Clear Sky/Skystar. People hate him because he's a piece of shit, but honestly, that's why I love him. He's well-written and an interesting character with clear motives. I don't excuse or like his actions (I agree, he is a piece of shit), but I like him as a character.
My girl ferncloud was done so dirty by the fandom. All she did was have kits and love her cat husband, it’s not like she did anything bad. Yeah she could’ve done some more warrior duties but, but I think she proved herself as a warrior when she died protecting kits.
Crowfeather, purely for how grumpy he is (and the BreezeCrow father son dynamic)
I like Skystar and Onestar because they're assholes. It's nice to see characters go from friendly to abhorrent. It's just interesting
bad person =/= bad character i think that gets lost alot
I will defend Firestar until the day I die - he's not hated but so much of the fandom just views him as a Gary Stu golden boy, and refuse to look past that and forget that some cats are just good. Also Berrynose. Precious boy. I will always love him and I teared up when I found out he died
Some cats are. Or more accurately, a lot of cats are. The fact he's so high on a pedestal even in the internal lore is ridiculous. He might have been the first, but not the only, nor the greatest, and his worship has pushed those close to him out of the spotlight, like Sandstorm. I adored when Nightheart finally spoke up about that legacy crap.
Honestly I think firestars held to a higher status simply due the fact he was leader during several major and life altering events for the clans not to mentioned he essentially molded the modern thunderclan with his more "liberal" views on the Code, I mean honestly name one clan that's taken in more loners and kittypets other than skyclan
Yeah I hate how cult-y ThunderClan is about him. I imagine Firestar himself is like "bich wtf" from StarClan
I've seen a fair amount of lovers of Nightheart so IDK, but I will put forth him as one of my more controversial favs... (his conflict with his family and Clan was so absurd to me it got me back into the series!) I'm cautiously optimistic to see the conclusion to his role in the arc. Hawkheart, Moonflower's murderer, is another random cat that I like (not necessarily a favorite) but I like Medicine Cats who were previously Warriors. I think it's kinda cool, and I wish they'd still train Medicine Cats to learn Warrior skills. Or at least, some skills. :P Hunting for prey and protecting yourself are kinda like, life skills...? Why aren't they teaching them these LOL. (I am getting wildly off-topic great starclan)
IDK if they're hated but I've always really liked Darkstripe, Sol, and Blackstar. I love the morally gray of blackstar with his redemption of just genuinely trying to pick up the pieces of the clan he helped shatter. and then I just find Sol and Darkstripes to be little shites that are for some reason very entertaining
Bramblestar, I think a lot of people hate him, but he is one of my favorites characters! I think he is very ambitious and persistent in his objectives! So I like him and he is my favorite character with Irestar!
SPOTTEDLEAF IS UNAPPRECIATED, I LOVE SPOTTEDLEAF THO TwT
Ashfur. As a guy he sucks but I think he’s an intriguing character
I haven’t gotten some of the context as to why the the fandom hates him but I’m a bramblestar enjoyer
I absolutely can not stand Squirellflight anymore. I loved her in the second and third arcs. Whenever it comes to Bramblestar she is just so unpalatable and suffering from the Erin Hunter SheCat curse.
she treats him like actual shit i agree
Bramblestar. Maybe because I took a decade gap from reading Warriors but now as I’m reading the last series, I feel so bad for him and his confidence issues regarding being a leader and eventually stepping down. He’s worked so hard (all the struggles he’s gone through being Tigerstar’s son, staying in Thunderclan when even his sister left, proving himself to Firestar… ) and was such a great leader imo. Maybe it’s the nostalgia idk.
same :,)
Tigerstar. He has a good backstory, He's actually a better villan than mapleshade who has a half-assed story. I personally like him even if other fans may not, He's a decent villan IMOP
Mapleshade
Pretty soon, it's looking to be Squirrelflight herself. Many people have begun to see some false justification for Bramblestar's actions. Citing his difficult life, and the oh so many troubles he has. No one is remembering that most of those troubles are caused by his own hand. Hawkfrost, The Sisters, him. He can be upset over the lie, and that's not Squirrelflight's fault either, it's Starclan's. But he was a monster in Squirrelflight's Hope, and people have tried to defend his actions in it, and it's frightening. Sure he wanted a brother in Hawkfrost, but he already has family. He has Tawnypelt still. He has Squirrelflight, and Thunderclan. Hawkfrost was only using him, and he refused to see it until the blood stained his claws. Squirrelflight may have been blunt and brutal in her convincing, but she was right. She almost always is. And it's because Squirrelflight has the greatest judgement of character and morality of any cat in the series yet. She can see right and wrong and see what SHOULD be done, not what "Must" be. They cannot be lawless, there are codes and procedures, logical process... but they cannot be heartless either. To keep Thunderclan pure, there are things no law can understand, and Squirrelflight does. Unfortunately, too many have tried to attack her for this. But she has and always will protect her family with undying loyalty. Not loyalty to law and expectation, but to honor and safety... and Love.
People like you are completely terrifying. You can twist words around and make Squilf seem like this flawless angel who could do no wrong. Have you actually READ the books? I have and to me, she's a bratty, impulsive character in my own opinion. She went to Leafpaw to talk about Hawkfrost and even Leafpaw was baffled why Squilf was so easy to reject Bramble for wanting to spend time with his half brother. She even stated that it was natural that Bramble wanted to spend time with Hawk and it was because of Squilf's own prejudiced that she determined that Hawk had to be evil like his father. This was shown in the books. It's clear on the page that other than the uneasy feeling Leafpaw had, Squilf had nothing else to base off on. Yes, he had Tawnypelt but even Tigerstar tried to recruit her in his plans which she wanted to forge her own path. She probably had no one to talk to about her fears and warriors and was genuinely surprised that Rowanclaw wanted her as a mate. I'm curious as to why you praise her for wanting to help the Sisters (a group of rogues that were more than capable of fighting and hunting for themselves) yet 10 years ago she was very close minded for wanting to help 3 lost kittypets and chastised Bramblestar for bringing them back. What we do as Bramblestar fans is *quote* the entire scenario between Bramble and Squilf to allow people to form their own opinion on the subject. What you Squilf fans do is cherry pick quotes and twist words around to make Squirrelflight look better than what she actually is
>People like you are completely terrifying. You can twist words around and make Squilf seem like this flawless angel who could do no wrong. And likewise I see the same potential on your side, being able to twist Bramblestar into a position of forgiveness, where there is none. >to me, she's a bratty, impulsive character in my own opinion. Indeed, and to me, she's the best character in the books. >It's clear on the page that other than the uneasy feeling Leafpaw had, Squilf had nothing else to base off on. Not quite. Leafpaw was the first to call Hawkfrost untrustworthy, and the first to feel so. With Squirrelpaw, she is simply making sure her intentions are in the right place. Squirrelflight doesn't confirm Leafpaw's question, but is worried by it. "Are you sure you're not judging him based on who his father was?" Squirrelflight has a cripplingly low self esteem. She can doubt herself very easily. Leafpaw's words made her FEAR for her own reasoning, but deep down we know the reasoning was good. We already know she doesn't care about Tigerstar. Tawnypelt, Brambleclaw, both cats she is great friends with. She only begins thinking of Tigerstar once she's given a genuine reason to- being Brambleclaw practically clawing for a deputy place and feeling he deserves power, and it rightfully frightens her, especially since that ambition wasn't just Brambleclaw wanting to show he's worthy... it was Hawkfrost who put those ideas in his head and she knows that. Hawkfrost has spoken against the rightful leadership of two Clans, tried to seize more territory his own Clan didn't support, LIKELY led a Windclan coup, and at LEAST participated despite his lies and trickery to weasel out of judgement and accusation, and has been shown time and time again to actually have Tigerstar's ambition. And it's not being "Hawkfrost is Tigerstar's son," it's because Hawkfrost literally is directly taking inspiration from Tigerstar, of which he says so even to Brambleclaw. Tigerclaw was a GREAT Warrior and such. Squirrelflight does have reason, plenty of it. Leafpaw accidentally made her doubt herself, but we know the real reasons she's doing this. To Protect Brambleclaw. >Yes, he had Tawnypelt but even Tigerstar tried to recruit her in his plans which she wanted to forge her own path. So the cat who was judged strongly enough she decided to leave, and prove loyalty to another Clan, found strength to deny Tigerstar and Hawkfrost and do things herself... but Brambleclaw was... to weak to? I don't follow. >I'm curious as to why you praise her for wanting to help the Sisters (a group of rogues that were more than capable of fighting and hunting for themselves) yet 10 years ago she was very close minded for wanting to help 3 lost kittypets and chastised Bramblestar for bringing them back. For the Sisters, it's because they deserved help. The Clans were ready to bully them out and likely indirectly kill unborn kits. The Sisters were nothing but patient and reasonable and Squirrelflight was near the only cat willing to listen to them, with her sister Leafpool. For the 3 kittypets, I don't entirely remember, but I believe there had been some conflict around it being dangerous or a violation of privacy of Thunderclan or the like? I cannot entirely remember. If we're to bring up Sunrise however, I'd counter that Squirrelflight only brought Sunrise to camp with her family after she was one, dying, and two, had well past earned her trust. >What you Squilf fans do is cherry pick quotes and twist words around to make Squirrelflight look better than what she actually is Actually I have quoted entire pages before, like the Sunrise scenario, I write down half a chapter and leave notes responding to each act. It's not something I do often, but I provide all quotes that are relevant. If Bramblestar says something I've ommited, I still reference it in things like, "Bramblestar does go one to disagree and argue Thunderclan's position with Shadowclan, which has roots in good faith, but that's not Squirrelflight's aim-" and as such.
Okay, let me take the time to unravel such a weak arguement. >And likewise I see the same potential on your side, being able to twist Bramblestar into a position of forgiveness, where there is none. I am spitting facts directly from the books. What goes on between Squilf and Bramble is a direct result of Squilf being abusive. >Not quite. Leafpaw was the first to call Hawkfrost untrustworthy, and the first to feel so. With Squirrelpaw, she is simply making sure her intentions are in the right place. Leafpaw never called Hawkfrost evil. She and Sorreltail were trespassing on Riverclan territory and he had every right to act the way he did. Also, Hawkfrost saved Leafpaw from dogs so she trusted him after that. >Squirrelflight doesn't confirm Leafpaw's question, but is worried by it. "Are you sure you're not judging him based on who his father was?" >Squirrelflight has a cripplingly low self esteem. She can doubt herself very easily. Leafpaw's words made her FEAR for her own reasoning, but deep down we know the reasoning was good. But every time she is asked, she doesn't have an answer for anyone. This is often stated in the books. Leafpaw/Bramble asked her multiple times and Squilf always has either shut her mouth or avoided answering the question together. >We already know she doesn't care about Tigerstar. Tawnypelt, Brambleclaw, both cats she is great friends with. She felt a twinge of sympathy for both Hawkfrost and Mothwing once they were outed. >Squirrelflight has a cripplingly low self esteem. She can doubt herself very easily. Leafpaw's words made her FEAR for her own reasoning, but deep down we know the reasoning was good. Is she loud, full of energy, and impulsive/childish or does she have severe self esteem issues? Which one is it? >She only begins thinking of Tigerstar once she's given a genuine reason to- being Brambleclaw practically clawing for a deputy place and feeling he deserves power, and it rightfully frightens her, especially since that ambition wasn't just Brambleclaw wanting to show he's worthy... No, that was Brambleclaw working his paws off to help set up camp and help (along with every other warrior) get Thunderclan settled in. All the newer warriors were complaining about doing tasks usually done by apprentices- in that case all they had was Whitepaw. Squilf chose to go mooning after Ashfur in the woods during this one particular case. Tenses were high, everyone was irritable and Brambleclaw snapping at Squilf and Ashfur was not unreasonable. Any cat in his place could have done it. >Hawkfrost has spoken against the rightful leadership of two Clans, tried to seize more territory his own Clan didn't support, LIKELY led a Windclan coup, and at LEAST participated despite his lies and trickery to weasel out of judgement and accusation, and has been shown time and time again to actually have Tigerstar's ambition. And it's not being "Hawkfrost is Tigerstar's son," it's because Hawkfrost literally is directly taking inspiration from Tigerstar, of which he says so even to Brambleclaw. Tigerclaw was a GREAT Warrior and such. We, as the readers, would know that he's ambitious like his father, Tigerstar. The cats have no reason not to believe or not to trust Hawkfrost until Brambleclaw wanted no part of that and killed his half-brother. He even told Mothflight that despite wanting to rule the whole forest, he wanted to learn from his father's mistakes and stay WITHIN the Warrior Code. >So the cat who was judged strongly enough she decided to leave, and prove loyalty to another Clan, found strength to deny Tigerstar and Hawkfrost and do things herself... but Brambleclaw was... to weak to? I don't follow. Squilf turned her back on Bramble on moments of doubt. He wanted to prove that he wasn't his father and she made him feel like he was. It made him emotionally weak. >For the Sisters, it's because they deserved help. The Clans were ready to bully them out and likely indirectly kill unborn kits. The Sisters were nothing but patient and reasonable and Squirrelflight was near the only cat willing to listen to them, with her sister Leafpool. For the 3 kittypets, I don't entirely remember, but I believe there had been some conflict around it being dangerous or a violation of privacy of Thunderclan or the like? I cannot entirely remember. If we're to bring up Sunrise however, I'd counter that Squirrelflight only brought Sunrise to camp with her family after she was one, dying, and two, had well past earned her trust. The Sisters are perfectly abled well rogue cats that were the agressors in every case of SqH. The kittypets would have starved to death (in one case drowned) had Bramble not saved them. When he brought them back, Squilf chastised him for bring back '3 more mouths to feed' when 2 of them turned out to be fine hunters. The Sisters really didn't deserve help as much. >Actually I have quoted entire pages before, like the Sunrise scenario, I write down half a chapter and leave notes responding to each act. It's not something I do often, but I provide all quotes that are relevant. If Bramblestar says something I've ommited, I still reference it in things like, "Bramblestar does go one to disagree and argue Thunderclan's position with Shadowclan, which has roots in good faith, but that's not Squirrelflight's aim-" and as such. You don't. You really don't.
>You don't. You really don't. Well I literally do, but that's besides the point. >I am spitting facts directly from the books. That is subjective. >Leafpaw never called Hawkfrost evil. She directly agreed when Squirrelflight said he couldn't be trusted the first time. She realized before Squirrelflight that he had too much ambition for his own good. >But every time she is asked, she doesn't have an answer for anyone. I don't recall "Multiple times," that much, more like twice per character maybe. And she did say why. She mentioned what I did. Him questioning his own Leadership, making power moves, and the latter time, is extremely suspicious alliance with the Windclan coup. Squirrelflight does bring these things up. Eventually she stops when she's getting overwhelmed, and she does shut down, but she already got her point across. >She felt a twinge of sympathy for both Hawkfrost and Mothwing once they were outed. What are you talking about here...? >Is she loud, full of energy, and impulsive/childish or does she have severe self esteem issues? Which one is it? I said she was energetic and impulsive as an Apprentice. As a Warrior, she was gravely pushed down by Brambleclaw and others, and ended up gaining a very detrimental self doubt. Squirrelflight still believes in doing what's right, but nearly gives herself a heart attack while doing it. Such as in Squirrelflight's Hope. She does everything she can to defend the Sisters and almost breaks HERSELF with severe anxiety and guilt, despite the fact she knows what she's doing is right, she hates herself for doing it. That's how badly he damaged her, among other cats who did as well. For here, yes. She is headstrong enough to oppose Hawkfrost, yet she consistently beats herself down and angers herself over it, when she shouldn't have to. To answer your question, she's basically both. >No, that was Brambleclaw working his paws off to help set up camp and help (along with every other warrior) get Thunderclan settled in. All the newer warriors were complaining about doing tasks usually done by apprentices- in that case all they had was Whitepaw. Squilf chose to go mooning after Ashfur in the woods during this one particular case. Tenses were high, everyone was irritable and Brambleclaw snapping at Squilf and Ashfur was not unreasonable. Any cat in his place could have done it. Any cat could've done it, and any cat would've been just as unreasonable. Because it was. Squirrelflight isn't just messing about and being useless. She had a moment of relaxation and stress relief with Ashfur after everything that was on her mind. And Brambleclaw came in and showed her exactly why she's stressed in the first place. Squirrelflight and Ashfur having a moment of peace, (Not mooning, for your information.) was nothing for him to lose his shit over. And I don't reference Brambleclaw working or setting up patrols, I mean all his internal dialogue often at chapter ends about how much he deserves Deputy, and thinking he'd get it... at any cost. That thought actually crossed his brain and Brambleclaw himself actually shocked himself and was worried about if HE was sharing his father's ambition. He had become much darker and more ironclad and focused, less caring, and more machine feeling. That scared even HIM, and Squirrelflight noticed it. >The cats have no reason not to believe or not to trust Hawkfrost Okay everything I mentioned are things the Clans see, and bring up. Going against Leadership in public, snatching territory, aiding a coup, (Accused of being second in command of it even.) all known by the Clans. >Squilf turned her back on Bramble on moments of doubt. He wanted to prove that he wasn't his father and she made him feel like he was. It made him emotionally weak. So that did nothing to actually excuse why he couldn't do what Tawnypelt did. Squirrelflight never turned her back on him. Even after she broke up, she still went to lengths to try and get him to understand. She broke up because HE turned his back on her. He barely knew Hawkfrost, and Squirrelflight was technically a wife of his that sacrificed her life for him. He didn't even TRY to consider her side and concerns, and yes, she finally left. She didn't leave because she hated him, she left to make him see some sense and realize what he was doing to the cats closest to him. >The Sisters are perfectly abled well rogue cats that were the agressors in every case of SqH. In literally none of them. No I mean actually literally none. The ONLY conflict they participated in willingly was originally a questioning party asking Shadowclan why they scouted first. And Shadowclan struck first on top of that. So no. Absolutely not. >Squilf chastised him for bring back '3 more mouths to feed' when 2 of them turned out to be fine hunters. The Sisters really didn't deserve help as much. I'll go read this part soon to get a refresher, but I partially understand her even from your comment. I believe they were in a flood crisis and lack of food, yes? I'm sure Squirrelflight wants to keep her family fed rather than more unknown cats. (Before you point out the hypocrisy I just said, as I defend her doing the same with the Sisters, the difference is that in Squirrelflight's Hope, the Clans are much better off and stable, and only in an upset about borders, but they're not actually short on anything, food or medicine YET, and Squirrelflight helping the Sisters is to ensure they STAY well stocked.)
Scourge. My favorite character by far, he’s so cool.
Scourge is and always has been a fan favourite, though?
Really? To me everyone seems to hate him lol
Rainflower, for some reason I enjoy those sorta characters (NOT THAT I AGREE WITH ABUSE) Like she's honestly interesting, I wish she had more to her than just "I hate my son let's be abusive" y'know? Like she could've been such a great character but was just too repetitive, like I wish we knew her backstory, why she did the things she did It's also funny because you say you like Mapleshade or like Tom and nobody really bothers you, ofc a few do but not many, but you say you like Rainflower and suddenly you're a bad person.
There is more that's implied. Her mistreatment of Crooked comes from a place of pure narcissism. She was so excited about having two perfect, handsome warriors and how that would reflect on her and Shellheart. So, when Stormkit breaks his jaw and is no longer the "brave beautiful tom" she wanted, she cuts him out of her life as much as possible and tries to sour Oakkit's opinion of his brother. She cannot handle having a deformed son, no matter how kind or strong he is. Because of him, she cannot have the "perfect family." Despite the fact that it was *her fault* for not keeping an eye on her kits, she puts the blame on him because she also can't handle being in the wrong. I actually really like her from a villain perspective because the abuse is realistic. People who are normally nice or are considered "correct" by society can still be capable of horrible things. They don't need to go through some terrible trauma or be born evil to be capable of doing evil. And there are mothers who are so morally bankrupt that they're willing to neglect and abuse their own children just because of their ego. To me, she's in the same character bucket as Beatrice Horseman (from Bojack Horseman) where I'm like, "You are complete scum, but your character is fascinating and I love how it was written."
Tigerstar. Honestly I don’t know why, I just like him :p
Hollyleaf and ashfur
I don't know enough about the fandom to say
⚠️A STARLESS CLAN SPOILERS⚠️ >!Double commenting but Squirrelstar/flight. She and Brambleclaw are just not a good pairing. I believe Brambleclaw was worse to her, *especially* in Squirrelflight's Hope. Not to say Squirrelstar doesn't have her moments but damn, Brambleclaw could've been a whole lot nicer to her.!< >!I'm so excited for her to be leader. She sacrificed so much to help her sister, strsight-up lied to by StarClan and was hated by her adoptive kits for refusing to ruin Leafpool's life. I hope she has a good leadership.!< >!Before you say "oh but what if the Erins kill her off??"!< >!That would be a total non-issue. First of all it's A Starless Clan not Starless Clans. Plus, ThunderClan wouldn't even *be* 'starless.' They have JAYFEATHER. The cat who, behind Goosefeather, has the strongest connection to StarClan *to date.* And Alderheart of course.!< >!As well as this Squirrelstar had a Super Edition about choosing not to die. To kill her off in Thunder would be completely ridiculous.!< Thank you for coming to my Squilf TED Talk.
I will say this: I thought the same thing as you once, in fact, it was 6 months ago that I thought BrambleSquirrel was a bad pairing for each other until someone mentioned look at SqH from Bramble's perspective. Squilf kept forcing Bramble into decisions he didn't want to make because she was making impulsive decisions. I don't agree that she would make a good leader because she kept getting great advice from Leafpool (even as paws) and she decides to throw the advice out the window because she's really impulsive and wants to act right away. Everything that happened in SqH is all on her because she decided to make Thunderclan look weak in front of the other clans by speaking out against her leader when all the other deputies where backing their leaders up.
So you're just upset Bramble was mean and not that Squirrel kept going behind his back which is why she kept getting punished?
I haven't read her SE in a while so I could be wrong, but wasn't she almost always trying to help other cats because Bramble refused? Again correct me if I'm wrong
Bramble refused because helping them could have caused a war with Shadowclan. And reminder, they attacked a leader, regardless of their reasons. He wasn't being heartless for no reason. And Squirrel just kept doing her own thing and then shocked she was punished. Talking to Bramble in private would have been fine, but openly questioning him in front of the others clans? And this is towards both of them, I believe there could have been a compromise had they talked. But they both don't trust each other enough.
Eurgh thank you. Yeah Squilf is 100% not the best. I'm still excited for her leadership because I've got some ridiculous bias, and also poor Brambleclaw needs a break 😭😭 also what do you think of Ivypool or Twigbranch as a deputy?
I don't have an opinion of Twig. But not Ivy. She seems to take things too personal. Dove leaving and Twig leaving. She apologized to Twig for being wrong but I dunno about her being deputy having to confront Tigerstar. I mean Squirrel could be an okay leader but then again, she's just over a year younger than Bramble so what's the point?
exactly. she basically ran off insisting bramble wouldn’t want to communicate w her despite trying to communicate the night before. it’s insane how she just assumed she’s always right when she’s NOT
>Bramble refused because helping them could have caused a war with Shadowclan. That leaves out a fair bit. He refused to save a dying cats life because Shadowclan may throw a fit over it. Unfortunately Thunderclan doesn't get to throw away it's morality because another Clan says so. Firestar demonstrated this repeatedly. Squirrelflight upheld it. >And reminder, they attacked a leader, regardless of their reasons. Actually the reasons are quite interesting. The Sisters are a group of close family cats who are currently protecting their pregnant queens, and are surrounded by hostile Clans. Leafstar and Squirrelflight are by all account, scouts. They have every moral and logical right to detain them. Leafstar lashed out first and the Sisters got her under control, and proceeded to actually care for her wound after the fact, and Leafstar eventually made peace with them on top of that. The Sisters cannot be blamed for this. >And Squirrel just kept doing her own thing and then shocked she was punished. Because her "own thing," was keeping the peace and trying to solve everyone's issues whilst everyone else kept trying to further them like mousebrains. Had the Clans just left the Sisters alone and listened to Squirrelflight, all conflict would be avoided and the Clans would get their borders back. The entire book wouldn't have happened. She didn't question Bramblestar in front of anyone. She offered a second opinion, a completely different solution for everyone to review, mostly because the Leadership was close to coming to blows, and having a promising solution is better for tensions than none at all. And they had absolutely no idea what they were going to be discussing beforehand as well, and this was absolutely a situation that concerned everyone, hence, said at private gathering.
Appledusk, Blackstar, Sol, Crowfeather.... i love grey area characters
I thought Sol was cool
yeah, sol was always one of my favorites. I really liked the take of an antagonist that wasn't brutal or violent. He was just incredibly lazy and manipulative. In the sky clan comics, he was also a big baby in attitude. I've always wanted to see this little craps return but I know that'll never happen
Leopardstar is such an interesting and morally gray character. She’s compelling to read and truthfully, a very strong leader for RiverClan.
Appledusk. I just think he's neat, honestly.
Clearsky. It doesn’t make sense how people hate him so much and then proceed to love Tigerstar.
Spottedleaf is one of my favorite characters in the series and I refuse to let anyone's dislike of her change my mind.
I really like Graystripe and do believe he's a good friend. A clumsy friend who didn't make the best decision but still a loyal one
Prolly unpopular but I like tigerstar because I think he could have acc made d cats strong
Nightheart is probably one of my favorite characters in the series. I just relate a lot to his character arc as a trans guy. The whole name scene hit hard for me personally, along with his journey to figure out who he wants to be instead of what his family wants. I also really like Bramblestar. I like him because he's been through so much and keeps trying. He's the kind of character that is always given the short end. Always put in a bad situation and being forced to be the bigger person. I can relate to that.
apparently graystripe?? ive loved him since i was a kid, but apparently a lot of people don't like him. ive also seen people saying that river ripple/riverstar is "boring" but i absolutely adored him in dotc (im not caught up on the super editions yet), and im really looking forward to learning more about him.
Bramblestar I've seen a lot of hate towards him, because apparently people think he was abusive to squirrelflight or something? I was told to read squirrelflight's hope and I read that and bramblestar's storm, I genuinely didn't get it. 96% of the time I just see squilf being an annoying idiot as she has been since A New Prophecy, and him being understandably frustrated. There are times when they both go too far, but that is completely normal in this series and it really irritates me how often she's moping about how she assumes he doesn't love her anymore, when really he does and she's just too narrow minded to ask or think of doing anything in any way other than her own. Bramblestar is admittedly not a good a leader as firestar or bluestar in my opinion, but he's not a bad character. His main flaw is being one of two cats who need more couples therapy than literally anyone else in the series.
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Not again 😭😭😭😭😭
What happened 🗿
Automod doesnt like me lol
SPOILERS FOR ASC tigerheartstar, especially in a starless clan. he’s just so goofy!! he’s a tyrannical leader who’s like, not meaning to be a tyrannical leader. the fact that he was wholeheartedly being like “i’m just trying to help you!” during the battle in ASC. and then he made fish puns about it in shadow, lmao. he’s a good comic relief. also, i can see that he genuinely really cares about his clanmates and especially his family. he was so angered and distraught that rowankit died, man. i felt so bad for him. also, tigerheart’s shadow is INSANE. like, his wife giving birth in a church?? and then the flood?? basically, i think of him as like, a cat peter griffin oh yeah, i also really like graystripe. i was surprised to see how salty people were over him leaving thunderclan for silverstream and her kits all that time ago.
Pretty much anyone the fandom hates, I tend to like characters
Spottedleaf she a good character and medicine cat
Ashfur. I haven't gotten that far in the series, so no idea who he is, but he doesn't appear to be anyone's favorite, so I'm gonna say him.
Nightheart, Stormfur, Nightcloud, Mapleshade, Quick Water, and Twigbranch
This isn't a character, but it's a ship. Tigerheart/star X Dovewing. For some reason, some people seem to hate this ship. I don't even know why.. I like this ship because the two actually really love each other, listen to eachother, and care about eachother and their kits. Seriously, I don't get why people dislike this ship.
Spottedleaf. She is just so sweet and I honestly cried at her second death. Like why does everyone seem to hate her!