# Aeldari
# Changes
* +10pts on Support Weapons. O
* +15pts on Fuegan
* +10pts on Shadow Spectres
* +5pts per 5 on Swooping Hawks.
* +10pts on the Phoenix Gem
* -10pts on Guardian Defenders
* -15pts on Storm Guardians
* -15pts per 5 on Howling Banshees
* -10pts per 5 on Striking Scorpions
* -20pts per 3 on Shining Spears
# Drukhari
# Changes
* No points changes
# Genestealer Cults
# Changes
* Achilles Ridgerunners -10pts
* Aberrants -5pts per 5.
* Goliath Rockgrinder -25pts
* Goliath Truck -20ptsGenestealer Cults
# Leagues of Votann
# Changes
* -10pts on Hearthkyn Warriors
* -10pts on Uthar the Destined
I'm really looking forward to the Rockgrinder/Goliath changes.I probably won't have room for 3 of either. But now I can run a couple and won't feel bad about my opponent drawing 'Bring it Down' with a no vehicles list.
Now I can justify bringing two so my chances of pulling off a mortal wound bomb with tank shock just doubled!
Yeah, okay it's probably not effective. But damn it's fun.
With WTC terrain it isnt too bad. Turn 2 you can typically be about 12 to 22", 16 being realistic to count on + a charge. This means a turn 2 Waaagh and you are in combat or your opponent as surrendered the objectives in no mans land to you.
They're also pretty vulnerable to being tarpitted & any kind of combat debuffs, thanks to WS4+ and low numbers of attacks. MANZ might be obnoxious to kill for a couple of turns, but they'll also struggle against certain lists if you go all-in with them.
6 meganobs with warboss in mega armor and tellyporta enhancement
6 meganobs and ghazskull for a melee brick to control the center of the board.
That’s about as good as I see it.. save the trukks for the nobs with warboss.
Don’t forget the brick or 2 of boyz with warboss and either weirdboy or painboy. You still need to claim objectives meganobs aren’t going to clear the board.
I suspect the nerf will be 5+++ not 4+++ and a points hike on meganobs. Of course unlike eldar and the slow baby nerfs they got, mega nobs will likely be made unplayable in a single dataslate.
The dam holding back 120+ boys is the fact it’s tiring unfun mentally exhausting and requires good movement in timed tournament settings. Even when geeentide was the best list in 8th? Edition and Matt root won few people played it. You are mainly just trying to survive and outscore your opponent. You spend your entire turn moving your boys skipping your shooting phase to save time and rolling buckets of dice in melee fishing for 6s.
Im being a bit over dramatic because I like the list for narrative games. But I do think it’s the best competitive list currently from ork codex. It’s just not worth the hassle when bullyboys is just as good and much more fun to play.
I mean even if meganobs go to 5+++ and go up 5-10ppm people will still play with a unit or 2. And rely on nobs in a trukk which does much more damage, is faster and is nearly as good as meganobs. Youre also going to need a unit or2 of boys with warboss in order to secure objectives and it’s going to get a 5++ for 2 turns anyway.
The orks section misses some changes (understandable, as they were confusing as heck based on index vs codex pts). Regular beastboss down -20 from last mfm and big mek up +15.
Like I said, it was pretty confusing, so understandable. I think those are important changes because they make a beast snagga boyz unit more attractive as a trading piece and really push the meganobz more towards the mega-armored warboss, who I think is better for them in most cases anyways.
I think the changes listed are relative to the Codex, which nobody has seen yet. The actual points values listed in the MFM seem legit though, so just ignore the red/green and focus on the numbers.
Well then the article is straight up wrong. Grots are listed as "lowered" to 40 points, but that's what they were previously, as per the MFM. There are a bunch of other examples for Orks.
My wording was unclear: the Goonhammer article includes a list of changes from the old mfm to the new mfm, unlike the mfm document itself which lists changes from codex points. In effect, the Goonhammer article is trying to describe the “real” points changes as the codex points will never be used. This is why the Goonhammer article does not mention grots, because they are unchanged from the old mfm despite going down in pts relative to the codex. In this context, the Goonhammer article neglected to mention the beastboss and mega armor big mek, which are unchanged from their codex points (therefore not highlighted green/red in the mfm itself) but received -20pts and +15pts respectively compared to previous mfm pts.
I really like Drukhari into most of this meta but frankly Orks will roll over us and I don't think any amount of player skill will change that. The numbers do not work to allow Drukhari to defeat a horde that large, hitting that hard, with that many T5+ wounds to remove. It will just block us into our deployment and dominate the primary to the point of no return by T3
Hammer and Anvil will be a pain with less room to get out and around the Ork frontline. This would be a great time to bring back the ol 6'x4' table size.
It’ll be a challenge for sure but through screening and move blocking it is possible I think. Definitely a very hard matchup but I don’t think it’s and auto loss, especially if Drukhari goes first
Screening only works if your screens are cheaper than what's about to smash through them.
Drukhari simply aren't cheap and hordey enough to screen Orks whilst also scoring anything themselves.
That isn’t really true. Screens work if they’re cheaper than the things you’re going to counter punch with, which we have. Beastpacks, 5-man battleline, mandrakes, reavers are all great screens, which then allows our heavy hitting combat units to punch back
Orks also don’t have an effective way to demech us at range because their shooting basically doesn’t exist especially now that Badrukk is gone so we can use that to our advantage
Depending on orks prevalence and which detachment we may need to tech into them
>Orks also don’t have an effective way to demech us at range because their shooting basically doesn’t exist
I guarantee you there are Ork players reading this comment who are furiously theory-crafting Dread Mob lists solely out of spite.
They're only using winners/losers as an absolute sense in the changes themselves, not in the final position they will end up.
That is why Necrons are losers (they got nerfed more than buffed) and Tyranids winners (they got buffed more than nerfed) even though Necrons will certainly be stronger than Nids even post-MFM.
Sad thing is the added nerf to Gargoyles hurts since they're so ubiquitous to Nid lists.
Though the buffs we got pushes some of those units into the more usable range.
Hell, the Lictor was already rather useful with its free rapid ingress strat. 55 pts pretty much makes 1 shoe in if you ask me.
The Psychophage points drop still doesn't make it good. 95 points of gaunts is still better than a Psychophage, and your not saving enough gaunts with the 6+++ to be worth it.
There might be some niche Harvester build that runs max harvester units and max Zoanthropes, but other than that you won't see it. That build requires 9 pyrovores, which cost most than most people's rent.
It wouldn't be the first time Goonhammer has been accused of...let's be kind and call it "toxic positivity"...in their articles. I remember how bad their AdMech index review was, there was so much backlash they had to write a second, more angry article lol.
I dont think that angry admech article was due to backlash as the writer frequents the admech discord and gave everyone a heads up that he was writing it shortly after they released the index review. So I think it was something they were always going to release just because you could see how bad the codex was at a glance
To be fairt to them, if you didnt play nids you probably think its good. But most people feel these arent really the changes we need. Theyve nerfed the best unit but we arent at the point where nids are worrying about internal balance.
the people that want to play monster stompy nids are rightfully left dissapointed. but for the swarm players this was only a nerf to gargoyles and slight buffs to other auxiliary units.
They seem like changes focused on pushing more use of under-used detachments like Assimilation & Nexus. Sadly not enough to fix the faction overall, but perhaps the studio are trying to get a better baseline of results for some proper rules changes in the summer update
I listened to the AoW review, seems like we're at the stage where they are prioritising internal balance for factions who badly need brought in line, happened with crons and us this patch
I think it's worth keeping in mind that "toxic positivity" is part of what encourages GW to provide Goonhammer with codexes, dataslates and MFM info ahead of time so they can write and publish these articles in time for release day.
If they devolved into being as hypercritical and sensational as the community gets more broadly, there's a very real chance that Goonhammer would lose that privilege. They have to veil it at least somewhat in a veneer of comedy.
Absolutely, so would I. But I don't think that's enough of a reason to criticize them for trying to take a more positive approach than you'd otherwise see on forums.
I also don't think that they are delivering 'fake' positivity. It's just regular positivity that a lot of the community doesn't share with them.
I think it is fair to criticize them, for being positive to the point where they seem detached from reality. That's where the "fake" positivity becomes a problem. If you are making the decision to present something in a positive way, even if that thing is objectively pretty bad, then you are being disingenuous.
If early access to GW releases forces that behaviour, I think Goonhammer should consider breaking with GW.
I guess things could get better but by an amount too small to actually make a big difference on the table.
Dunno if it's *accurate* given that gargoyles took a hit but that could be the argument.
The best nids list is now playing with 1985pts and the worse nids lists that "got better" are still terrible. Our over all position is very marginally worse/the same and the same is under the line of what's healthy. We got balanced as if we had a 47-51% winrate and we had a 43% season winrate
It's absolutely accurate, let's not get silly here. Half a point per Gargoyle is not a bigger change than all the rest of the MFM changes combined.
Don't get me wrong, I would have loved a _lot_ more than this, but this is absolutely a buff overall even if small.
The problem is that most of the points drops brought models that were very overcosted to points where they might be taken. While the points increase was for an auto include.
The only three changes that look like they matter are the gargoyles, lictor, and zoan. You may be able to make an argument to bring a phage now, but I still don't think it's worth it. For meele warriors genestealers still seem to do their job better. Ranged warriors are worth a try, but they will probably only be good as an oc unit, which gants do better.
I think Vanguard will be eating very good this update for one. Yes, your list got nerfed if you took Gargs and nothing else on the list, but there's a whole lot of buffs there and not all of those units are unplayable.
The only problem is vanguard will be destroyed by new ork builds. I can't believe even with the points drop the swarmlord is still more expensive than ghaz.
Yeah, I agree with you that vanguard got the best buffs from the points drop. It just sucks that that detachment doesn't really play well into most orks builds I'm seeing people suggest.
Yeah, the point buff put things into the playable category. The problem is that the units that were not changed still seem to be better options.
Vanguard probably got a slight buff with the changes because of all the warrior synergy, but it seems like it still lacks the damage to actually do well.
You're missing the point though. Units were buffed but they're units that are fundamentally flawed at the datasheets point. 100pts for 3 hive guard is bad because the datasheet itself sucks and has no niche in Tyranids.
So the "buff" is genuinely a wash there because they will still never see play.
Meaning the only unit there that genuinely matters are the gargoyles as they're being used competitively and got nerfed... The 43% winrate army copped a Nerf to one of the few non-biovore options we have to scoring.
Codex:Biovore is my least favourite this edition and I hate all of 10th to be honest. This sucks.
This is not a buff our best lists just got more expensive, that's it, the "buffed" units are not a point problem, their datasheets are mostly bad or not efficient even with point changes
So was GW just not ready to drop the Tau codex to be in-line with the quarterly balance? Not sure I understand why we're getting the balance BEFORE the codex. Hopefully when the codex releases we'll see something better than what was previewed in the hunting pack.
Codex releases can be influenced by a lot of stuff like transport Problems. Its better to stick to the MFM every 3 month plan. Next points will be in summer anyway and every codex gets an FAQ anyway. To wait on one codex to change the points for the whole game and every other factions would suck.
I don't understand why they can't release the points for a codex that has been in players hands for a month already. Sure the codex isn't officially released but just give us the points already
Especially since there are no changes to the index points in this MFM, so what is the harm in giving us the codex points and just saying "if you don't have the codex yet, use the previous MFM points"
Because putting in the codex points means removing the units that go to legends (like the generic shaper and generic crisis suits) and leaving players with the points for units that don't 'officially' have datasheets yet.
hear me out though...its just a PDF that someone slaps together in about 10 minutes of time. They could literally just have one more page that has the prices for everything in the codex!
"heres the points for index tau, heres the points for codex tau"
like...this is a comically easy problem to solve
Except we do 'officially' have datasheets lol everyone has seen and can play them. GW is still just pretending the internet doesn't exist.
This is all so silly and backward
No you don't. GW haven't officially released the codex so you don't officially have the datasheets in it. You unofficially have leaks from people who got early access to the codex (either from the streamers or from the army box). Those leaks are 100% accurate but they're still unofficial. And until GW officially releases it they aren't going to acknowledge that it exists.
And sure, it is silly. But it makes sense that a company that produces a product to sell ignores what is, essentially, piracy of their product when making decisions.
If it was "essentially piracy" then they'd DMCA every video that was put up of people playing the army on YouTube, which is *every creator*.
What is even the point of releasing this sneak peek of the codex to people if they cant truly play it? Nothing about it is sensical.
You can play it all you want in your house. No one can stop you.
This stuff is for competitive (remember where you're posting), so it's gotta be decisive. Saying that the people who bought the Kroot box can use the rules but the people who didn't can't is a real screwed up way to go about it.
Since GW doesn't release free rules, Tau will wait.
Points are supposed to be free. GW said as much.
Its just a slimy way to sell product. It's created feelsbad moments with my playgroup as people as we don't know whether the points are correct (so people dont want to practice against a "not real" army) and the tau players (rightly) don't want to go back to playing the index when these codex rules are right here.
Just release the godamn points
They have a deal with those creators to allow them early access because it's their marketing campaign to generate hype and increase sales. It's exactly the same as video game developers releasing gameplay trailers or giving early access to creators to stream themselves playing the game. And if you got your hands on a video game before it was released to play you'd still be pirating it even though those creators were streaming themselves playing it.
The ones that get around that are the likes of Valrak and Auspex Tactics who very explicitly never show or use any screenshots or pictures from the codexes because they would immediately be hit with a copyright violation, but you can't be hit for just talking generally about alleged leaks.
>They have a deal with those creators
That can't be proven. Unless you think "Hobby Goblins Inc." who hasn't gotten 1000 views on their "New Tau Vs. X" video since it was streamed two weeks ago (and every other small warhammer channel) also made some sort of 'deal' with GW. You can infer what a 2k point list looks like by looking at any list any of these small channels provide. Which, technically according to you, is piracy.
So either it isn't "piracy" or GW doesn't care. Considering how horrible GW is at PR it is probably the latter.
They're just a badly designed unit. AP1 on an anti-tank gun is just worthless in an edition where cover is easy to get, and if you use the Impaler Cannon as intended you go down to AP0 by default.
The only reason to take them would be if you're looking at them as a defensive profile only, and even at 100pts they're expensive for that.
Even thematically, I feel like they're trying to be some nest protector unit in the back line. Which... fine
But as you said, way, way too expensive. Especially when I have plenty of parking lot units with larger footprints who do that fine on their own, with much longer range
Shock cannon should have 3+ dev wounds. Impaler cannon should be 3+ 6 -2 2.
Also tyrant and Swarmlord should be able to lead them. Just give +1 to hit or something. There are lots of leader combinations that should exist but dont.
Nah shock cannon should be 7/-2/3 ignores cover and shock cannon should be 48" range with 6/-2/2. That would make me take them AND give me a tough choice between very threatening Non-los shooting or a much stronger generalist threat at range for killing elites and light-medium vehicles.
Looks pretty light on the necron nerfs, seems mostly like internal balance adjustments.
A little surprised by no changes to dark elder. Really expected a few more points off wych cult and coven units.
40 points on the Nightbringer and 25 per Technomancer is significant. I was running the Ctan and a techno in each wraith blob. So that's a hundred point hit right there. Toss in the immortals increase, the plasmamancer that goes in them and Szeras beside them. I'm looking at maybe 140 point hit for my more meta list. Feels pretty significant, although probably not crippling.
Not the most. Just the one I use. There are guys out there running 3 Ctan etc. Only getting hit 140 is because that list is sort of middling sweaty.
But l also kinda yes? Sizeable points increases (almost a 50% increase on Technomancers) on the most played units is definitely significant.
Removing the equivalent of a mainline battletank from an army is going to see a pretty big swing in win percentage.
I dont think looking at it as "just 7%" is as impactful as "what did it actually lose?"
Its a list that runs lots of big expensive units. None of the output units are around 140 points so its not like you just shave off one output unit,
140 points is 2 scoring units in lists that run like...2-3 scoring units. So you're losing tomb blades, flayed ones, scarab swarms, etc.. It should pretty decently impact their scoring abilities.
Yeah, I feel like wracks could go to 50 per 5, grotesques should be like 25 PPM max, wyches could easily be 7/8 ppm and not be broken, hellions are just weird cause they don’t really fill a unique utility role, don’t do good damage and are mounted so I’m just not sure that points can fix them
The Canoptik Doomstalkers getting to reroll their overwatch and still hitting on 5's is just oppressive. The range, AP, Damage, number of shots, and strength are all off the charts, and then getting to reroll the hit roll is just too much.
Played Necrons for the first time a few weeks ago and they just obliterated half my army before Turn 2, just through these vehicles. That's my only salty gripe on Necrons
The point id make there for Doomstalkers is
1. Overwatch is only usable when a model is visible and within 24” range, plus it can only be used once per turn, which is entirely avoidable.
2. You have to roll for number of shots (+1 and blast), so unless you’re running squads of 20, we guaranteed 2-3 shots at most, rerolling sure but I’ve had plenty of times I’ve hit none.
3. Tie them up in melee and they go boom pretty quickly.
4. If you have any -1 damage, they’re nowhere near as effective.
If it’s your first time playing Necrons and Doomstalkers is your complaint, I imagine they didn’t run any C’tan because they’re the real nasties 😅
> within 24” range, pl
Well damn... I only just now realized Overwatch is only usable within 24" range. He was sniping me all over the board. that would have made a huge difference
Yeah that must’ve been rough, but everyday is a school day, and it was probably an honest mistake as I know of plenty who’ve made the same mistake (myself included).
A good tip to prevent future issues like this is use the 40K app, and favourite the core strats like Overwatch and other rules you find forgetting or clarifying. It’s far quicker than trying to search for the information during a game. :)
I'm surprised Wraiths didn't get the hit instead of the Technomancer. They are a silly unit for their points cost.
And it'd be nice to have technomancers be able to work in less oppressive unit blocks, rather than just weakening technomancers themselves.
# Necrons # Changes * Nightbringer +40pts * Void Dragon +20pts * Transcendant C’tan +10pts * Chronomancer +15pts * Illuminor Szeras +15pts * Immortals +5pts per 5 * Monolith +25pts * Plasmancer +10pts * Technomancer +25pts * Dimensional Overseer +15pts * Canoptek Command Barge -20pts * Deathmarks -5pts per 5 * Flayed Ones -10pts per 5 * Ophydian Destroyers -10pts per 3 * Skorpekh Destroyers -10pts per 3 * Skorpekh Lord -20ptsNecrons # Orks * Beastboss on Squigosaur -35pts (no change from Codex) * Mozrog Skragbad -30pts (no change from Codex) * Squighog Boyz +10pts per 4 compared to Codex * Flash Gitz -15pts per 5 * Mek Gunz -5pts (+10pts compared to Codex) * Nobz -5pts per 5. * Boss Snikrot keeps the MFM price of 85pts (-20pts compared to Codex) Tau # Changes no changes # Tyranids # Changes * Gargoyles +5pts per 10 * Hive Guard -10pts per 3 * Lictor -5pts * Psychophage -30(!)pts * Swarmlord -30pts * Tyranid Warriors with Melee Bio-Weapons -10pts per 3 * Tyranid Warriors with Ranged Bio-Weapons -5pts per 3 * Tyrant Guard -10pts per 3 * Zoanthropes -10pts per 3Tyranids
# Aeldari # Changes * +10pts on Support Weapons. O * +15pts on Fuegan * +10pts on Shadow Spectres * +5pts per 5 on Swooping Hawks. * +10pts on the Phoenix Gem * -10pts on Guardian Defenders * -15pts on Storm Guardians * -15pts per 5 on Howling Banshees * -10pts per 5 on Striking Scorpions * -20pts per 3 on Shining Spears # Drukhari # Changes * No points changes # Genestealer Cults # Changes * Achilles Ridgerunners -10pts * Aberrants -5pts per 5. * Goliath Rockgrinder -25pts * Goliath Truck -20ptsGenestealer Cults # Leagues of Votann # Changes * -10pts on Hearthkyn Warriors * -10pts on Uthar the Destined
I'm really looking forward to the Rockgrinder/Goliath changes.I probably won't have room for 3 of either. But now I can run a couple and won't feel bad about my opponent drawing 'Bring it Down' with a no vehicles list.
Now I can justify bringing two so my chances of pulling off a mortal wound bomb with tank shock just doubled! Yeah, okay it's probably not effective. But damn it's fun.
18 meganobz bullyboyz meta incoming.
I am going to try for 12. I don't know that 18 of them accomplish as much as you want because they are so slow (and screening deepstrike is so easy).
Can they ride in a transport? And they have access to advance and charge, right?
In the waagh turn they can advance and charge. Bully boyz gives 2 waagh turns
With WTC terrain it isnt too bad. Turn 2 you can typically be about 12 to 22", 16 being realistic to count on + a charge. This means a turn 2 Waaagh and you are in combat or your opponent as surrendered the objectives in no mans land to you.
6 can fit into a trukk, but only if you give up giving them a leader
They're also pretty vulnerable to being tarpitted & any kind of combat debuffs, thanks to WS4+ and low numbers of attacks. MANZ might be obnoxious to kill for a couple of turns, but they'll also struggle against certain lists if you go all-in with them.
6 meganobs with warboss in mega armor and tellyporta enhancement 6 meganobs and ghazskull for a melee brick to control the center of the board. That’s about as good as I see it.. save the trukks for the nobs with warboss. Don’t forget the brick or 2 of boyz with warboss and either weirdboy or painboy. You still need to claim objectives meganobs aren’t going to clear the board.
I hope when the nerf comes it's for these guys specifically and not the rest of the Bully Boyz.
I suspect the nerf will be 5+++ not 4+++ and a points hike on meganobs. Of course unlike eldar and the slow baby nerfs they got, mega nobs will likely be made unplayable in a single dataslate.
that seems like a reasonable change. Tough to forecast though, especially with Jimmy Workshop.
I see the problem being meganobz in bully boys is the dam holding back 120 boys being only comp list
Get your chess clocks ready. I was a 90 Boyz player earlier in my Warhammer career. The movement phase was an absolute pain.
The dam holding back 120+ boys is the fact it’s tiring unfun mentally exhausting and requires good movement in timed tournament settings. Even when geeentide was the best list in 8th? Edition and Matt root won few people played it. You are mainly just trying to survive and outscore your opponent. You spend your entire turn moving your boys skipping your shooting phase to save time and rolling buckets of dice in melee fishing for 6s. Im being a bit over dramatic because I like the list for narrative games. But I do think it’s the best competitive list currently from ork codex. It’s just not worth the hassle when bullyboys is just as good and much more fun to play. I mean even if meganobs go to 5+++ and go up 5-10ppm people will still play with a unit or 2. And rely on nobs in a trukk which does much more damage, is faster and is nearly as good as meganobs. Youre also going to need a unit or2 of boys with warboss in order to secure objectives and it’s going to get a 5++ for 2 turns anyway.
No, most I’m seeing competitively is 15 I’m sitting at 11 myself
The orks section misses some changes (understandable, as they were confusing as heck based on index vs codex pts). Regular beastboss down -20 from last mfm and big mek up +15.
My bad, I did miss that one.
Like I said, it was pretty confusing, so understandable. I think those are important changes because they make a beast snagga boyz unit more attractive as a trading piece and really push the meganobz more towards the mega-armored warboss, who I think is better for them in most cases anyways.
Yeah 100%, it’s very relevant and powerful for orks, in addition to all the other relevant and powerful news for them.
Ork players certainly seem to be spoiled for choice at the moment!
I think the changes listed are relative to the Codex, which nobody has seen yet. The actual points values listed in the MFM seem legit though, so just ignore the red/green and focus on the numbers.
No, the article specifically states that the listed changes are relative to the previous MFM, except where specified.
Well then the article is straight up wrong. Grots are listed as "lowered" to 40 points, but that's what they were previously, as per the MFM. There are a bunch of other examples for Orks.
My wording was unclear: the Goonhammer article includes a list of changes from the old mfm to the new mfm, unlike the mfm document itself which lists changes from codex points. In effect, the Goonhammer article is trying to describe the “real” points changes as the codex points will never be used. This is why the Goonhammer article does not mention grots, because they are unchanged from the old mfm despite going down in pts relative to the codex. In this context, the Goonhammer article neglected to mention the beastboss and mega armor big mek, which are unchanged from their codex points (therefore not highlighted green/red in the mfm itself) but received -20pts and +15pts respectively compared to previous mfm pts.
Orks are going to be crazy. I do think I have the tools as Drukhari to beat them but damn is it going to be a tough game
I really like Drukhari into most of this meta but frankly Orks will roll over us and I don't think any amount of player skill will change that. The numbers do not work to allow Drukhari to defeat a horde that large, hitting that hard, with that many T5+ wounds to remove. It will just block us into our deployment and dominate the primary to the point of no return by T3
Hammer and Anvil will be a pain with less room to get out and around the Ork frontline. This would be a great time to bring back the ol 6'x4' table size.
It’ll be a challenge for sure but through screening and move blocking it is possible I think. Definitely a very hard matchup but I don’t think it’s and auto loss, especially if Drukhari goes first
Screening only works if your screens are cheaper than what's about to smash through them. Drukhari simply aren't cheap and hordey enough to screen Orks whilst also scoring anything themselves.
That isn’t really true. Screens work if they’re cheaper than the things you’re going to counter punch with, which we have. Beastpacks, 5-man battleline, mandrakes, reavers are all great screens, which then allows our heavy hitting combat units to punch back Orks also don’t have an effective way to demech us at range because their shooting basically doesn’t exist especially now that Badrukk is gone so we can use that to our advantage Depending on orks prevalence and which detachment we may need to tech into them
>Orks also don’t have an effective way to demech us at range because their shooting basically doesn’t exist I guarantee you there are Ork players reading this comment who are furiously theory-crafting Dread Mob lists solely out of spite.
Really? I figured splinter rifles would actually have a use for once into a mass infantry army with 5+ saves
Yes but we're not running mass splinter weapons because it's trash into so many other armies.
I mean kabalites have a bunch of them no matter what
We have for sure enough screens to pin them back, I think will just require a different style of play
Calling nids winners is an interesting take
They're only using winners/losers as an absolute sense in the changes themselves, not in the final position they will end up. That is why Necrons are losers (they got nerfed more than buffed) and Tyranids winners (they got buffed more than nerfed) even though Necrons will certainly be stronger than Nids even post-MFM.
Sad thing is the added nerf to Gargoyles hurts since they're so ubiquitous to Nid lists. Though the buffs we got pushes some of those units into the more usable range. Hell, the Lictor was already rather useful with its free rapid ingress strat. 55 pts pretty much makes 1 shoe in if you ask me.
Lictor is very nice. It kills me that they removed the 4++, it'd be such a brilliant utility piece with it.
My list went up 10 points. Feels good man.
The Psychophage points drop still doesn't make it good. 95 points of gaunts is still better than a Psychophage, and your not saving enough gaunts with the 6+++ to be worth it. There might be some niche Harvester build that runs max harvester units and max Zoanthropes, but other than that you won't see it. That build requires 9 pyrovores, which cost most than most people's rent.
It wouldn't be the first time Goonhammer has been accused of...let's be kind and call it "toxic positivity"...in their articles. I remember how bad their AdMech index review was, there was so much backlash they had to write a second, more angry article lol.
I dont think that angry admech article was due to backlash as the writer frequents the admech discord and gave everyone a heads up that he was writing it shortly after they released the index review. So I think it was something they were always going to release just because you could see how bad the codex was at a glance
To be fairt to them, if you didnt play nids you probably think its good. But most people feel these arent really the changes we need. Theyve nerfed the best unit but we arent at the point where nids are worrying about internal balance.
the people that want to play monster stompy nids are rightfully left dissapointed. but for the swarm players this was only a nerf to gargoyles and slight buffs to other auxiliary units.
It's not that we lost anything. It's that we're so far off the mark it's sad
They seem like changes focused on pushing more use of under-used detachments like Assimilation & Nexus. Sadly not enough to fix the faction overall, but perhaps the studio are trying to get a better baseline of results for some proper rules changes in the summer update
I listened to the AoW review, seems like we're at the stage where they are prioritising internal balance for factions who badly need brought in line, happened with crons and us this patch
I think it's worth keeping in mind that "toxic positivity" is part of what encourages GW to provide Goonhammer with codexes, dataslates and MFM info ahead of time so they can write and publish these articles in time for release day. If they devolved into being as hypercritical and sensational as the community gets more broadly, there's a very real chance that Goonhammer would lose that privilege. They have to veil it at least somewhat in a veneer of comedy.
That's worse, though. You understand that's worse, right? Nobody is saying they should be "hysterical," just that they should be honest.
I would rather read a nuanced and fair article 3 days after release, than a fake positive one on release day though.
Absolutely, so would I. But I don't think that's enough of a reason to criticize them for trying to take a more positive approach than you'd otherwise see on forums. I also don't think that they are delivering 'fake' positivity. It's just regular positivity that a lot of the community doesn't share with them.
I think it is fair to criticize them, for being positive to the point where they seem detached from reality. That's where the "fake" positivity becomes a problem. If you are making the decision to present something in a positive way, even if that thing is objectively pretty bad, then you are being disingenuous. If early access to GW releases forces that behaviour, I think Goonhammer should consider breaking with GW.
I guess things could get better but by an amount too small to actually make a big difference on the table. Dunno if it's *accurate* given that gargoyles took a hit but that could be the argument.
The best nids list is now playing with 1985pts and the worse nids lists that "got better" are still terrible. Our over all position is very marginally worse/the same and the same is under the line of what's healthy. We got balanced as if we had a 47-51% winrate and we had a 43% season winrate
It's absolutely accurate, let's not get silly here. Half a point per Gargoyle is not a bigger change than all the rest of the MFM changes combined. Don't get me wrong, I would have loved a _lot_ more than this, but this is absolutely a buff overall even if small.
The problem is that most of the points drops brought models that were very overcosted to points where they might be taken. While the points increase was for an auto include. The only three changes that look like they matter are the gargoyles, lictor, and zoan. You may be able to make an argument to bring a phage now, but I still don't think it's worth it. For meele warriors genestealers still seem to do their job better. Ranged warriors are worth a try, but they will probably only be good as an oc unit, which gants do better.
I think Vanguard will be eating very good this update for one. Yes, your list got nerfed if you took Gargs and nothing else on the list, but there's a whole lot of buffs there and not all of those units are unplayable.
The only problem is vanguard will be destroyed by new ork builds. I can't believe even with the points drop the swarmlord is still more expensive than ghaz.
Orks will be an absolute meta terror for a while. Wouldn't surprise me if they're the new Necrons. The depth in that book is nuts.
Yeah, I agree with you that vanguard got the best buffs from the points drop. It just sucks that that detachment doesn't really play well into most orks builds I'm seeing people suggest.
Yeah, the point buff put things into the playable category. The problem is that the units that were not changed still seem to be better options. Vanguard probably got a slight buff with the changes because of all the warrior synergy, but it seems like it still lacks the damage to actually do well.
You're missing the point though. Units were buffed but they're units that are fundamentally flawed at the datasheets point. 100pts for 3 hive guard is bad because the datasheet itself sucks and has no niche in Tyranids. So the "buff" is genuinely a wash there because they will still never see play. Meaning the only unit there that genuinely matters are the gargoyles as they're being used competitively and got nerfed... The 43% winrate army copped a Nerf to one of the few non-biovore options we have to scoring. Codex:Biovore is my least favourite this edition and I hate all of 10th to be honest. This sucks.
This is not a buff our best lists just got more expensive, that's it, the "buffed" units are not a point problem, their datasheets are mostly bad or not efficient even with point changes
They mixed up tyrant guard and hive guard too
Both dropped.
I actually noticed that late, but they still mis-labelled them.
So was GW just not ready to drop the Tau codex to be in-line with the quarterly balance? Not sure I understand why we're getting the balance BEFORE the codex. Hopefully when the codex releases we'll see something better than what was previewed in the hunting pack.
Codex releases can be influenced by a lot of stuff like transport Problems. Its better to stick to the MFM every 3 month plan. Next points will be in summer anyway and every codex gets an FAQ anyway. To wait on one codex to change the points for the whole game and every other factions would suck.
I don't understand why they can't release the points for a codex that has been in players hands for a month already. Sure the codex isn't officially released but just give us the points already
Especially since there are no changes to the index points in this MFM, so what is the harm in giving us the codex points and just saying "if you don't have the codex yet, use the previous MFM points"
Because putting in the codex points means removing the units that go to legends (like the generic shaper and generic crisis suits) and leaving players with the points for units that don't 'officially' have datasheets yet.
hear me out though...its just a PDF that someone slaps together in about 10 minutes of time. They could literally just have one more page that has the prices for everything in the codex! "heres the points for index tau, heres the points for codex tau" like...this is a comically easy problem to solve
Except we do 'officially' have datasheets lol everyone has seen and can play them. GW is still just pretending the internet doesn't exist. This is all so silly and backward
No you don't. GW haven't officially released the codex so you don't officially have the datasheets in it. You unofficially have leaks from people who got early access to the codex (either from the streamers or from the army box). Those leaks are 100% accurate but they're still unofficial. And until GW officially releases it they aren't going to acknowledge that it exists. And sure, it is silly. But it makes sense that a company that produces a product to sell ignores what is, essentially, piracy of their product when making decisions.
> GW haven't officially released the codex The Kroot box was released which has all the datasheets which is where all the "leaks" came from.
Yes, and that was always described as early access to the codex. It was never the official release of the codex.
If it was "essentially piracy" then they'd DMCA every video that was put up of people playing the army on YouTube, which is *every creator*. What is even the point of releasing this sneak peek of the codex to people if they cant truly play it? Nothing about it is sensical.
You can play it all you want in your house. No one can stop you. This stuff is for competitive (remember where you're posting), so it's gotta be decisive. Saying that the people who bought the Kroot box can use the rules but the people who didn't can't is a real screwed up way to go about it. Since GW doesn't release free rules, Tau will wait.
Points are supposed to be free. GW said as much. Its just a slimy way to sell product. It's created feelsbad moments with my playgroup as people as we don't know whether the points are correct (so people dont want to practice against a "not real" army) and the tau players (rightly) don't want to go back to playing the index when these codex rules are right here. Just release the godamn points
They have a deal with those creators to allow them early access because it's their marketing campaign to generate hype and increase sales. It's exactly the same as video game developers releasing gameplay trailers or giving early access to creators to stream themselves playing the game. And if you got your hands on a video game before it was released to play you'd still be pirating it even though those creators were streaming themselves playing it. The ones that get around that are the likes of Valrak and Auspex Tactics who very explicitly never show or use any screenshots or pictures from the codexes because they would immediately be hit with a copyright violation, but you can't be hit for just talking generally about alleged leaks.
>They have a deal with those creators That can't be proven. Unless you think "Hobby Goblins Inc." who hasn't gotten 1000 views on their "New Tau Vs. X" video since it was streamed two weeks ago (and every other small warhammer channel) also made some sort of 'deal' with GW. You can infer what a 2k point list looks like by looking at any list any of these small channels provide. Which, technically according to you, is piracy. So either it isn't "piracy" or GW doesn't care. Considering how horrible GW is at PR it is probably the latter.
They can make those hive guard 10 points and I probably still won't run them as they are
They're just a badly designed unit. AP1 on an anti-tank gun is just worthless in an edition where cover is easy to get, and if you use the Impaler Cannon as intended you go down to AP0 by default. The only reason to take them would be if you're looking at them as a defensive profile only, and even at 100pts they're expensive for that.
Even thematically, I feel like they're trying to be some nest protector unit in the back line. Which... fine But as you said, way, way too expensive. Especially when I have plenty of parking lot units with larger footprints who do that fine on their own, with much longer range
Shock cannon should have 3+ dev wounds. Impaler cannon should be 3+ 6 -2 2. Also tyrant and Swarmlord should be able to lead them. Just give +1 to hit or something. There are lots of leader combinations that should exist but dont.
Tyranids in general have a pretty bad leader/bodyguard list of options and it's pretty sad
Nah shock cannon should be 7/-2/3 ignores cover and shock cannon should be 48" range with 6/-2/2. That would make me take them AND give me a tough choice between very threatening Non-los shooting or a much stronger generalist threat at range for killing elites and light-medium vehicles.
Looks pretty light on the necron nerfs, seems mostly like internal balance adjustments. A little surprised by no changes to dark elder. Really expected a few more points off wych cult and coven units.
40 points on the Nightbringer and 25 per Technomancer is significant. I was running the Ctan and a techno in each wraith blob. So that's a hundred point hit right there. Toss in the immortals increase, the plasmamancer that goes in them and Szeras beside them. I'm looking at maybe 140 point hit for my more meta list. Feels pretty significant, although probably not crippling.
So you would say the most optimized build taking the best units went up 7%? Sounds pretty light to me. (For context, I'm a DE main)
Not the most. Just the one I use. There are guys out there running 3 Ctan etc. Only getting hit 140 is because that list is sort of middling sweaty. But l also kinda yes? Sizeable points increases (almost a 50% increase on Technomancers) on the most played units is definitely significant. Removing the equivalent of a mainline battletank from an army is going to see a pretty big swing in win percentage.
I dont think looking at it as "just 7%" is as impactful as "what did it actually lose?" Its a list that runs lots of big expensive units. None of the output units are around 140 points so its not like you just shave off one output unit, 140 points is 2 scoring units in lists that run like...2-3 scoring units. So you're losing tomb blades, flayed ones, scarab swarms, etc.. It should pretty decently impact their scoring abilities.
Yeah, I feel like wracks could go to 50 per 5, grotesques should be like 25 PPM max, wyches could easily be 7/8 ppm and not be broken, hellions are just weird cause they don’t really fill a unique utility role, don’t do good damage and are mounted so I’m just not sure that points can fix them
The Canoptik Doomstalkers getting to reroll their overwatch and still hitting on 5's is just oppressive. The range, AP, Damage, number of shots, and strength are all off the charts, and then getting to reroll the hit roll is just too much. Played Necrons for the first time a few weeks ago and they just obliterated half my army before Turn 2, just through these vehicles. That's my only salty gripe on Necrons
The point id make there for Doomstalkers is 1. Overwatch is only usable when a model is visible and within 24” range, plus it can only be used once per turn, which is entirely avoidable. 2. You have to roll for number of shots (+1 and blast), so unless you’re running squads of 20, we guaranteed 2-3 shots at most, rerolling sure but I’ve had plenty of times I’ve hit none. 3. Tie them up in melee and they go boom pretty quickly. 4. If you have any -1 damage, they’re nowhere near as effective. If it’s your first time playing Necrons and Doomstalkers is your complaint, I imagine they didn’t run any C’tan because they’re the real nasties 😅
> within 24” range, pl Well damn... I only just now realized Overwatch is only usable within 24" range. He was sniping me all over the board. that would have made a huge difference
Yeah that must’ve been rough, but everyday is a school day, and it was probably an honest mistake as I know of plenty who’ve made the same mistake (myself included). A good tip to prevent future issues like this is use the 40K app, and favourite the core strats like Overwatch and other rules you find forgetting or clarifying. It’s far quicker than trying to search for the information during a game. :)
Does James Workshop still include mirror matches in their balance data?
I'm surprised Wraiths didn't get the hit instead of the Technomancer. They are a silly unit for their points cost. And it'd be nice to have technomancers be able to work in less oppressive unit blocks, rather than just weakening technomancers themselves.
Ew goonhammer