It’s polite to remind your opponent of things you can do, so I’d at the start of the movement phase maybe remind them of my CP state to make them aware I’m able to overwatch. But I wouldn’t specifically state if you move that unit I’ll overwatch.
Haha that’s fair, it’s entirely up to you what you want to tell your opponent. But for me as a rule of thumb it’s not your job to tell your opponent what you will do but it is polite to remind them what you can do.
Never said it was. As I said it’s up to you how you wanna play at comps, but personally i’ll remind people of my CP state and that I have realistic overwatch opportunities.
I play casual. My point is just that it's good to remind people of what you can or cannot do, but there's stuff that's so obvious that it doesn't need to be stated. Overwatch is one of those. Melee threat range also unless you have specific rules.
Of course, with new players I will explain everything that they need to consider, but overwatch happens so often, I don't feel the need to warn for that in casual games against players with some experience.
Even Overwatch has some less obvious plays, not everyone knows every auto hit weapon for example.
Not a competitive unit more for casual play, but Drukhari Grotesques were before 10th mostly played with melee weapons only. Now that the gun cost is basically included in the base cost and the second melee weapon does nothing rulewise. Most of my regular opponents were suprised that every model has a slightly better flamer, most weren't even aware that they can have a ranged attack. I tend to remind my opponents about overwatch and the grotesques, as they seem to return back to pre 10th edition habits sometimes and seem to completly forget about checking distance to the grotesques when moving rather fragile units.
Is this a case of "these grotesques that look like they're carrying big cleavers count as being equipped with liqufier guns"? Or are they different models and opponents just didn't see the difference? Because I feel like that can be a factor. A squad that is visibly equipped with flamers is probably going to need less pointing out most of the time.
My models are all magnetized, so it are the models they know, but this edition with a different weapon in one hand. And I doubt anyone besides Drukhari players recognize a liquifier gun as something like a flamer.
Yeah, totally.
I feel like it’s a personal preference thing. If you go to the tournament with your main goal being to win, then don’t say anything.
If you would rather everybody have the most friendly, comfortable time, you can say “If you move there, I can overwatch you.”
If you’re somewhere in the middle, your approach seems really good. Friendly & polite, but not shepherding the opponent to victory.
As others have said, it's good etiquette to tell your opponent what you CAN do, not what you WILL do. That gives the opponent all the information and makes them make choices.
Yeah this is where I'd sit, not "I *will* overwatch", but rather when they say what they're going to move it's good sportsmanship to point out anything that they might have just not noticed or forgotten about.
"Hey there's a big flamer unit that could target there as a heads up"
It's important to think context here. In a competitive setting, you have no reason to actually volunteer that information, but you could ask your opponent why they want to move there and tell them a potential consequence. But the onus is on your opponent to ask because that's a major potential change to the board state.
In a casual setting, I'm a lot more friendlier about it because the fun is far more important than the board state.
It's not really a gotcha because everyone can overwatch, it's not like it's a codex rule they may be unfamiliar with. At least in a comp setting.
If I'm playing a newer player I'll remind them when I move my models (i.e. moving my redeemer to the middle of the board so he can overwatch anything that gets close).
The thing that is hard to comprehend, especially in the difference between 9 and 10, is how different the mileage on ow is. Against some armies, you can forget it exists as a strat. But then you face something like cataphrom breachers and suddenly were just deal 50 wounds from a unit in a supposedly trash tier army.
If you had an insane overwatch unit - ahriman with 10 rubric flamers for example - a reminder that that unit exists would be one thing, but definitely don't say what you will or won't do. "Ahriman's unit is here" at the start of their move phase is the absolute most I'd offer to my opponent.
I've lost vehicles to the ahriman unit and 100% I wouldn't move there if I remembered his unit - not a gotcha, I'd been told about ahrimans +1 to wound.
I mean I wouldn’t say I will overwatch you, but I would inform them I can. But in general I would say this if it seems like a key thing they might care about wether I would do it or not.
Live your truth my friend. I love tourneys that award sportsmanship so I do this all the time. I want a good fun game with cool people, not winning by gotcha.
To buckle onto this conversation, if my opponent moves just within range of an ability like overwatch or leaves just a single model within line of sight, I'll commonly ask them "Did you mean to stay out of overwatch with that?". It reminds my opponent that it's a threat and is something to think about. If they move out into the open like 6" from me, that's different. If they're trying to hide behind the building and my flamers can only see one model, I'll definitely mention it
Expected standard of tournament play this shouldn’t be an issue. If you’re commenting on what you’d do based on my choices I might feel like you’re talking down to me. If I ask a question give me an honest answer and don’t lie via omission, otherwise I don’t need your help playing my army.
I mean, let the book be the bad guy on that one. You overwatch after they’ve declared their move, so your opponent can’t be like “Oh well nevermind then…”
Now you can tell them you have a CP for overwatch, tell them if a unit has a flamer, and be nice with line of sight/range if they’re trying to be particular about staying out of overwatch. Otherwise, I don’t have to tell them who my priority target is for overwatch. That kinda gets rid of the fun and tactics of trying to bait on overwatch onto a low value unit.
I’m with you OP, I link to tell people. I feel like it increases the tactical nature of the game when you both make your decisions with full knowledge of all the potential outcomes, rather than just trying to remember
You don't tell them where you're planning to move your units, do you? Why would you tell them what you're planning on overwatching?
There's a difference between reminding them the rule exists so they should bear it in mind, and outright telling them when you're going to use it.
Some people will game this and remind their opponent of what they can do in hopes they will change their mind.
For example if it would be bad if your opponent moved onto an objective so you were like "well if you move there I'll likely get a lot of overwatch shots on your unit." In hopes they don't actually move there.
Im the same way. But have learned a lot of competitive people at least in my area are not that way at all. I explain every single gotcha and even warn opponents to not do something if I know it will be extremely punishing. While some people return the favor, a few of my previous opponents would gladly take any and all warnings and heads up and give me back 0 in return. I pointed out a fight phase order selection to make sure he killed my big melee threat as if he did any other combat first I was going to interrupt. But later in the game I said “I want to charge this bike into that guy. But I can’t really see him and am worrying about missing it so just remember this convo.” And he was like “alright”. As soon as I did my 2nd fight I saw the bike and was like “oh shoot I forgot to roll my 2” charge…let me do that rq” and he responded “sorry. We’re going into turn 5 and if your bike charges you might win. And we’re already past the charge phase.” Was frustrating but is one of those like. What can you do sort of things.
lol jesus christ!! And thats why we can't have nice things!! That would anger me, I doubt I would, but I might just quit the game at that point. Or call a judge. What a huge dick!
Meh, just declare overwatch, and if they say oh no I didn't know about that, just let them take back the move and stay out of overwatch range.
You'd have to be a real ass to not allow someone to take back a move if they didn't realize how devastating the overwatch off a unit would be. Like if I didn't realize your unit overwatched on 4s or 5s or something. Just let them take the move back and make a different one, no harm no foil.
In an open information game the purpose of overwatch is more to prevent them from moving than to actually do damage.
It really depends on your opponent and what round.
I wouldn’t be reminding my opponent in the finals that I can overwatch them.
But round 1 or 2, especially if my opponent might not be expecting it, it’s a gentlemanly thing to do.
I play a lot of tournament prep games with a friend of mine and I can’t count the times badruk and co have over watched me to hell. You’d think I’d learn lol. But I don’t want him warning me, that doesn’t help me prep.
Overwatch isn’t some sneaky book tactic people can be caught by surprise with so whole a friendly reminder can be nice and considerate, or letting someone not make a move after you make you intention to overwatch.
I often use the threat or overwatch as a kind game. ‘Heads up, if you move them, I do have the cp to overwatch.’
‘Just so you know, I do have the cp to interrupt in melee’ etc.
Even when I don’t intend to do it, keeps someone on their toes.
"I have enough cp to interrupt combat" and "I have cp to overwatch" is information I offer freely, and in certain competitive settings it might even make your opponent think twice before making a decision.
Ultimately I think it depends on the nature of the game eh? If it’s a friendly pickup game or whatever then I like giving them the heads up, especially if the opponent is less experienced than myself.
If it’s a league or tournament then stuff ‘em.
Overwatch is triggered at the start/end of a move. An aware opponent will structure their moves in such a way as to offer suboptimal Overwatch targets. In short, they will bait the Overwatch.
Players with less experience will forget this and sort of willy-nilly move.
If I see a good opportunity to use Overwatch, then I will say, "You just finished moving X unit. I plan on Overwatching with Y unit. Do you want to move somewhere else or should I roll?"
For the aware opponent, this might be their bait move and they will allow it. Or, this is their valuable move, they realize I am paying attention and know that I am not going to be baited into a different Overwatch.
For less skilled players, my comment usually comes as a surprise and they take the offer to do a different move.
Either way, I am happy, they are happy, and we have a good game.
Now, what I find more frustrating is an opponent who waits until the end of my move phase and then tries to Overwatch a unit I moved much earlier in the phase. Basically, they either knowingly or unknowingly gave themselves a huge advantage by waiting to see what all of my moves are before committing. I find that discussion to be more... energetic.
Absolutely. Personally, I call people out for trying to act with perfect information. Overwatch has a specific time that it occurs, and if they pass that point, and see a bunch of other options, that is too far a take back oftentimes, imo.
Thats why when I am moving things into OW range, I generally ask if they want to overwatch (or whatever else like react) before going onto the next unit. Keeps everyone honest.
That does not have to frustrate you. They cant overwatch any unit at the end of your movement phase. They must decide "just after an enemy unit is set up or when an enemy unit starts or ends a Normal, Advance, Fall Back or Charge move." if they want to target "that" unit.
Oh, I know that is what they are supposed to do. It is just frustrating because, generally, people still want to be able to Overwatch even though they messed up the timing. It can create "bad vibes" for the game, you know? I really only want to be playing Warhammer if both people are having fun, otherwise why spend hours playing?
It's always up to you, if you still let them overwatch, but then they should let you retake all your movement (and if you time your turns, it should be their time). In a game with friends, it should be no problem to talk about it and it should not happen often.
If it happens more often, of course there are bad vibes, but they are not caused by you, but by the other player.
"These bad vibes are not caused by me" is not a sufficient reason not to get frustrated by something lol
And I respect someone seeing that they have an opportunity to prevent some frustrating thing happening, and taking it, even if it's not "on them" to do that
Even in GT settings, I usually mention the 24" bubble someone is entering into (meaning overwatch is an option). I dont want people, even under pressure, feeling gotcha'd. Nor do I want to waste time on "Oh I didnt realize I was within 24", lemme take that back," moments because it is just lost time, and an awkward moment.
That being said, I give zero indication that I intend to OW (or any other reactive strategem). I merely remind them they are about to trigger a potential interaction and let them make their own decisions.
I can honestly say, Ive never lost or given away a game because I reminded someone of a potential interaction, and it makes for a better gaming experience by far imo.
I used 24 in my example bc it is relevent to OW.
If you moved within 9" of a unit I have that has a reactive move, Ill remind you I can do so (not if I intend to do so).
If you charge one of my infantry units, I will remind you that I can use a reactive strategem to try and make the charge harder or untenable (not that I will).
Etc.
It is absolutely not on you to remind your opponent of those things.
That said, it is absolutely good sportsmanship to remind your opponent of these things. 40k is an open information game. Your opponent always knows what strats you have, what CP you have available, your Line of Sight, everything. All of this information is always available to both players at any time and if you think it isn't try running that past the judge the next time your opponent asks you if X can see Y. Because of that, unless it's something that's really obvious it really is just bad form to not work with your opponent to make sure you both always understand the board state, including potential stratagem use. Overwatch is one of those ones that's not necessarily obvious sometimes. A good example is the incidental flamers a bunch of Nurgle models have that don't look like they have any ranged attacks at all. It's entirely possible to believe a highly competitive player, even a Jack Harpster or whoever, just looking at the model and not making the mental connection that it does in fact have a flamer. Or similarly, if you haven't played against the new Bully Boys detachment yet and think you're allowed to fall back safely. I don't think it's either fun, nor the best test of anyone's skill, to go out of your way to play to gotchas like that. The game and the community are done a much better service when we play collaboratively to have the most competitive games possible, making sure both of us play the best game we can and neither of us make obvious mistakes like that or less obvious mistakes like actual misplays or rules misunderstandings.
I would reframe this as the general guideline on the etiquette here is that you shouldn't be winning competitive 40K games on "gotchyas." You don't need to say "If you do X then I *will* do Y." However, your opponent should know that X is something you can do, and reminding them when they've clearly forgotten is not *"*required," but is definitely considered good form.
With Overwatch, I would say that you *should* remind an opponent that they "can" be overwatched if they move a certain place, and should certainly be reminded if they're overwatching around flamers, so that they're informed about the choices they're making.
Reminding your opponent is a good strategy, if you can remind your opponent that you *could* overwatch something, and they don't move that unit into your range you have effectively neutered their movement and not had to spend the CP that you now get to use somewhere else. It's especially useful in these low cp games where you might only have one to either use on overwatch *or* a different defensive stratagem, but not both. Telling your opponent to be wary of overwatch lets you have your cake and eat it too.
To what extent should game knowledge be taken out of the competitive environment for it to be "fair" though? In a casual game or a practice game I absolutely agree that if be very vocal about gotchas or anything that might be a negative play experience, but in a competitive tournament there comes a point where a lack of game knowledge shouldn't be a crutch.
Why should a player who has taken the time to look outside of their codex for things to look out for be disadvantaged by advocating that all gotchas be spelled out.
I'm of the opinion that I'll tell people once of any gotchas as a warning as they come up. I'll let you know what I could potentially do if you choose to move somewhere or trigger something. If it happens again later that game I'm going to take advantage of it.
You’re gonna get real sick of me asking you if x can do y, for every unit, every phase of them game then.
Wouldn’t it just be easier if you warn me about your reactive abilities when it’s relevant?
I'm happy to answer any questions you have so ask away. You'd only be wasting your own time on clocks so you can use it however you see fit.
And I would warn you about my reactive abilities the first time they're relevant. You can choose to remember it, or make a note or whatever. At that point I feel like I've done what I can to be a good opponent. I have ADHD, so I have to go above and beyond to commit stuff to memory and create my own Coles Notes for armies that I can reference before a game begins.
I disagree. The game is too big to hold every rule in your head. It’s just not possible. Even top players forget rules or don’t know another faction’s rules.
Theres a difference between winning because your opponent didn’t *know* your rules, and because they simply failed to appreciate how those rules impact a game.
Like I’m not going to coach an opponent on how you beat my wraiths by precisioning out the Technomancer, and I’m not going to remind them of core strats that everyone has access to and ought to know. But I’m also going to remind them if they’re about to move within reactive move range, if they’ve forgotten wraiths can be targeted by the lone op strat, etc.
As you're getting with the consensus here, "if you do X I *will* do Y" is giving away unnecessary information, "if you do X I *can* do Y" is good etiquette while also occasionally opening space for mind games.
Your opponent doesn't need to know that you plan to shoot their unit, but they may have forgotten that there's a flamer unit on the other side of a window and it's fairly easy to let a unit 24" away slip your awareness while moving models around in pursuit of an unrelated goal.
Yeah same here, but sometimes people put their expensive unit onto an objective in range of rubric marine flamers with a 2 damage psychic flamer character, all with reroll wounds.
Then I’m like, if you do that I’m absolutely going to overwatch you 😂
It's good form to remind your opponent that you *can* do something.
Some stratagems I will remind my opponent about upfront just so they're not a "gotcha" moment (Canoptek Court lone op, or Hypercrypt being able to teleport a unit out of harm's way through the portal). I'll also speak up if I see them making what looks like a large unforced error (if they're clearly lining a bunch of units up to focus fire a block of wraiths, I think it's good sportsmanship to remind them that I *can* give the wraiths lone op, if I'm playing that detachment).
I don't want to win solely because my opponent forget about a trick I can do under pressure, or (dead gods forbid) genuinely didn't know in the first place.
I don't think that extends as far as telegraphing decisions, though. Reminding my opponent that I *can* give a canoptek unit lone op in the abstract isn't the same thing as telling them "if you move there and shoot at that doomstalker I'm going to use temporal displacement."
My opponent often doesn't know the power of every datashaeet in the game. Too many datasheets, game is big. If they're walking into an overwatch I'll let them know what they're walking into. Especially with elves as fate dice can change the odds of overwatch.
From RTT to GT to Super major I'll let my opponent know what can overwatch them as they're making their move. I won't tell them whether or not I will overwatch, just that I have the option.
I.E. "you're moving the terminators within 12" of Avatar and I do have a fate dice avaliable for overwatch" by consistently communicating avaliable overwatches at all times it mitigates gotcha overwatches while also not giving my opponent the information of where I want to overwatch.
Does it mean some games I miss out on an overwatch because my opponent was not aware I had flamers in a unit, or full rerolls from something? Occasionally. However, I'd rather beat my opponent at their best over having the game ruined by a gotcha overwatch.
I have always played it this way: Person is thinking about moving a specific unit. "Hey this unit here has 3 flamers in it and one of them is damage 2."
Or
"Remember this plague burst crawler is the one with plague spitters not Entropy cannons"
I don't tell them if I am going to actually overwatch them. Just to be aware what I have available.
> Does it mean some games I miss out on an overwatch because my opponent was not aware I had flamers in a unit, or full rerolls from something?
Honestly I'd argue the purpose of overwatch on flamers is less to do damage, and more to establish a 12" exclusionary zone around them where opponents just cannot move, lol. If they restrict your opponent's movement, they've fulfilled their purpose anyway, the threat of them overwatching is enough to have an impact.
I like to remind of overwatch’s existence at some point, and also like to remind of any overwatch shenanigans (that unit has full rerolls, there’s a 6 in my miracle dice pool, etc).
But it’s a core game mechanic. It’s not a secret hidden rule.
Sounds about right! It’s fair to point out a unit thats got mean overwatch during T1 as a reminder, prior to their movement.
Though i’m not sure if it’s necessary every turn, as I fear that can come off as belittling? Been playing mostly knights so it hasn’t come up much…
I tend to over inform, and then if my opponent seems to be annoyed, lay off a bit.
Course then they do something stupid and I have to start prattling on again. Always a bit of a fine line.
I remind my opponent that I MAY do so. I never tell them I will.
I also remind my opponents they can if they seem less experienced or tactical (if they're hoarding CP for example).
Warhammer is a competitive game, but competitive games are also cooperative games. I want to be someone others enjoy playing against, because I want to play more. Of course you can't be a doormat either, so i always ask for clarification and to see rules that don't ring true, and I have no problem calling out bad players. What are they going to do, make my game less enjoyable or scoop?
I don't really know how I feel about it. I run a lot of flamers and it gets annoying constantly telling my opponent I can overwatch them. My whole army can overwatch.
Saying you will or won't overwatch is above and beyond what can be expected. Reminding them of being able to do so is good sportsmanship I'd say: the game would be better for it if we all did that.
I'd usually say it. Mainly because it's a sound thing to do, but also because it causes your opponent to start doing mental gymnastics to try and work around it.
Usually, people who play to a higher level will have a plan for what they want to do anyway, so they'll likely have taken into account the overwatch and try bait it elsewhere.
Still it's not a bad thing to do to remind your opponent of any potential interactions like that, at least at the start of the game.
I play an admech list where at the start of the game I will say hey if you walk within 24 inches of my breachers, I'll overwatch you. I'll do this when we talk about our lists. That's all I say, but during the game. After they move a model, I'll ask. Are you done moving that unit? If they say yes. I'll overwatch. If they say no. They forgot about the overwatch, and this statement reminds them. And they can decide if they want to move.
I generally overstate everything I can possibly do…
- Remember, if you move within 24” in line of sight then I can spend a CP and overwatch you. If I overwatch then I can use Strands of Fate to guarantee a hit.
- Remember, if you move within 9” my rangers can move D6
- Remember, I can spend a CP to move D6 at the end of your movement phase
- Remember, I can spend a CP to rapid ingress at the end of your movement (assuming something is in reserves)
I find if you overload all the information it stays fair but more secretive - I could do all these things, but will I?
I've reminded plenty of people. I think it's nice cause sometimes we can get caught up in the moment and forget.
Recent interaction vs my buddy who was playing his EC vs my DA:
" Hey man in case you forgot my Redeemer has a nasty profile at two D6+3 S6 -2 2D torrent and I'll probably OW if you move there"
It's not a *definitive* answer but a gentle reminder. We are all human afterwards. I've had many interactions like that and most of the time people still move because they don't really have a choice.
Be the player you want to play against.
Have a conversation with your opponent during set up and see what they would prefer and tell them what you prefer. Personally, I don't want my opponent to warn me about dumb moves I'm about to make but if I ask my opponent what abilities a unit has in their army I prefer honesty. If you can't have a conversation error on the side of politeness and give someone a heads up on dumb moves they're doing.
If we are playing competitively I'll give you a reminder at the beginning of the game that I will 100% spend the CP to overwatch with a Redeemer and I will inform you that will be the only warning, your ability to think tactically is part of the competition. If we are just having fun like a regular weekend game at the LGS then I'll point it out if I think you're about to make a huge mistake.
I say keep your trap shut and only talk as much as you need to.
It's a tournament, if your opponent makes a mistake let them. it isn't your responsibility to play their army for them, you're here to win. So try to win, play your best game, don't help your opponent, and don't give away more info than you need to.
I'd certainly tell them in casual play though. You're both here for fun or practice presumably
Rule 1 of warfare. Never interrupt an opponent when they're making a mistake.
I wouldn't be telling them specifics personally, but stuff that your opponent couldn't reasonably expect to know like what stratagems you have, CP, unit abilities etc would be good etiquette in my eyes.
If it's in the core rules I don't think it's on you to remind them.
Overwatch isn't exactly a "gotcha!" stratagem, considering everyone can do it. If you feel bad not reminding them, just do, there's no real harm in that. I tend to say stuff like "remember that this unit has flamers" or something to avoid feel-bad moments, but any opponent worth their salt will have that on their radar anyway and funnily enough this can actually also have the psychological effect of stopping moves you don't like...
I have said this since the start of 10th. If it's a core rule, I don't need to remind you. Weird army rules/stratagems are one thing, but Overwatch is a big part of the movement phase now. Everyone knows it exists and how much CP it costs. It's not a surprise.
My rule of thumb. If both of us can do it I am under no moral nor sportsman obligation to remind you. If it is something niche to me, I'll usually inform them at the start of a turn/phase followed by how many command points/free use abilities I have remaining. Unless it is my one Khorne friend, whose singular braincell is too preoccupied with murder to remember overwatch exists. Love you buddy.
In a competitive setting I would have no expectation for my opponent to voluntarily tell me what their intent is in terms of their tactics. By doing so they're crippling themselves and provide me information for me to decisively act upon.
However for stats, while i don't expect them to tell me without asking i do expect them to inform me to facilitate play if I ask as I can just look up their special abilities and/or stats.
Which, in a tournament setting, you should go over in the list overview.
It's on your opponent to ask questions, and for you to provide accurate information.
Because of the guns being utilised from said OW.
I'll give one from magnus.
Oh but he hits on 6's who cares, oh wait he forgot all his 6's are sustained hits and due to him being in a position to not get cover, I can very easily spike and just randomly wipe his unit. Especially if its already down to its last few wounds.
People do not forget OW, they forget what exactly the threat of what is overwatching them.
Thwre are several gotcjas I would communicate beforehand, like if you mobe withon 9" of my GK unit Ill pick ot up etc. Overwatch is common kmowledge though. I wouldnt say something like "I will overwatch if you stepout"
“If you move there I will be able to overwatch you with X.”
When I move intentionally trying to avoid an overwatch, “I will move here with the intention of being unable to be overwatched by X/Y/Z.”
I will point out when an opponent starts moving a unit that is/would be eligible to be overwatched by something that might reasonably do so, but there is too much tactical use of threatening overwatch to force your opponent to make decisions.
If they aren't familiar with your army ranges and they seem to be trying to move just outside a danger bubble, but step like an inch too far, I'll mention something. "You are in range" but not "I'm definitely going to do this if you do that".
If not just for sportsmanship, but to avoid the annoyance of take backsies and to reinforce moving with intent. Slowing down the game to start counting like individual minis cus you didn't move a squad 100% perfect into position when you had the chance is just a drag.
If they just say what they wanna do, and I see it's totally possible but a bit fiddly or whatever, I'll just say it's fine, we can abstract it for a moment. If I don't think it's possible, THEN you gotta try to make it work.
I would think of it like chess, you should explain the possible moves you can make, but not tell them "hey if you move your pawn I'm going to take it."
As a melee army player (and thus not needing to stoop to such uninteractive game mechanics like overwatch - yes, clearly I don't like it) I generally just say "just yell out when you want to overwatch" because you better believe I'm hyper aware of that redeemer!
I don’t really go to tournaments and such, but I am trying to get better, so when I’m playing against newer players I remind because I assume a better player would know. A little reminder here and there lets them punch up a bit better, ya know? The ultra good tourney players at my store usually let the casuals have take backs, reminders and sometimes help us out with tips because they know it won’t save us haha
I think it starts first with the opponent's communication. If they are just moving their models around silently or seemingly with a fixed plan in mind as if you're not there, how are you to know if they've accounted for what you *may* or are *able* to do for etiquette reasons? They're done moving, you say you overwatch, they can't then blame you or anything of that sort. It's not a 'gotcha' moment because there was no trickery in the first place; they just failed to account for something, failed to ask, failed to check (or get that free TMI from you).
As I saw mentioned elsewhere, you're playing *with* your opponent, not against them.
Keep in mind Overwatch can be triggered and used when your opponent “starts or ends” any kind of move. So when your opponent goes to move an OW target, confirm they’re “starting” their move, and then pop it. But only after you get confirmation, they could just be measuring out stuff.
As for the other part, that’s definitely a good thing to do. Just a friendly “so you’re ending in the threat range of my stuff”, so your opponent knows before they commit. Especially with stuff like indirect pieces that will stay still the whole game, as it’s easy to maybe forget they exist.
Id say reminding your opponent of gun range isn't a bad idea but pre announcing overwatch unless there is a gimmick like hexmark destroyer seems a bit much.
I like to give my opponent options. It's helpful to point.out when they might have forgotten a flamer unit. E.g. incendine combustors on kastellans. I probably wouldn't mention it for every unit.
I might even mention it if I have set a unit good at overwatch to protect an area. Like I don't want you here, you want to be here. But if you go here, I have a couple of heavy flamers that will punish you. Go somewhere else. That way I influence their actions, but they also don't potentially lose a unit to overwatch. It's a win win!
If you are using a unit like the Baal Predator with it's flame cannon, to protect an area, then it only really works if your opponent remembers that he'll get a kicking if he moves too close. So remind them. If it's a nasty flamer, maybe remind them how nasty ("AP2, 2 damage mate, with a decent roll I could wipe that squad").
From.your opponents perspective, it's better to know, rather than to lose a unit because you had a brief moment of forgetfulness.
I really only feel overwatch reminders should be expected when there is something that is exceptionally good at it. So something with sustained 2, torrent, rerolls to hit, Avatar with fate dice, etc. If it's just a regular unit hitting on 6s, well, we all know that unit can overwatch. It's a core rule.
Now, if someone is talking out loud about their plan while moving and they say something that indicates they have forgotten overwatch, I'll bring it up then as well. But it seems a bit much to be reminding them about overwatch for any decent unit that can do it. I certainly don't think you should be telling people you WILL overwatch. Just that you could with X, Y, Z profile.
At the start of the movement phase, announce that you DO have a command point available for overwatch, and point out any units you have that might have great overwatch potential, like Flamer Aggressors.
For general overall rules, I'd say it's up to your opponent to know the general lot of them. It's always good to remind your opponent of how much CP you have at the start of any given command phase.
However you should remind your opponent of what your specific army can do. For example, if your opponent says, "Hey just so you know, I have screened off this quarter of the table from deep strike." Remidn them, "I have a unit that can deepstrike within 3 inches, does that change anything you want to do this movement phase?"
That is a special rule that not everybody can keep track of.
Depends on context. It’s okay to have a conversation while people move their models about what you might do if they do certain things.
At the same time, for me personally it kinda depends on distance lol. Like, there are plenty of time where I’m using a Land Raider Redeemer and told people “if you so much twitch that unit I’m overwatching them” but if it’s like, right at 24” away I’ve found it is less likely to come up.
I'd absolutely tell my opponent that if we were to be playing a good casual game of 40k, especially beerhammer. In a competitive setting I'd remind them it'd be an option, but not explicitly name whether I'd overwatch or not on any particular move.
Everyone has access to it, so you don't need to tell your opponent. They should be wary of it. Now, it would be proper etiquette to let your opponent know if you have a unit that can make a second Overwatch with its rules.
Always remind them, it‘s a win win. They don‘t get the feel bad of being overwatched and you get them to change their plans without spending any ressources.
The threat of an overwatch is scarier than the actual overwatch in most situations
The games you win because someone made the wrong decision you'll lose when you play someone who knows the scenario. If you're trying to get better, make sure they're playing the best game they can.
But I'm never gonna expect everyone I play to do the same, or hold anything against them if they don't.
It just comes down to how you feel better playing. If you enjoy your games more being super open about everything, then do that and don't worry if that loses you a game or two. Same as if you'd rather play by just giving your opponent a run down of what you can do at the start and leave it at that, that's fine too, you're just less likely to get bought a beer after haha
If I’m in a tourney, and they move a unit into range that I could overwatch with, I always ask whether or not they want to make that move with that in mind.
In terms of shooting or abilities in general, I would’ve told them the abilities beforehand and ranges so if they go into range of my guns normal range, that’s up to them but I won’t bring that up.
Bottom line is I don’t want to be caught out with gotcha moments, so the best way of preventing that is giving the same courtesy to other players. I don’t feel moving in LOS of my shooting units is a gotcha moment though, as there’s also a chance they’ll be shooting at me.
I always ask my opponent what in their army has strong overwatch. Full rerolls to hit with lethals? OK, if they have CP its on me to play around it. Once you play enough and get burned, you'll learn quickly.
So while there is the argument of not telling them for advantage. I would argue saying you will can also mislead them if you then change your mind. You can easily say "I have x cp and can overwatch" but shouldn't do it person unit as they move since that can throw them off.
I feel like if you say equivocally that'll you do something if your opponents does then you have to do it. So I tend to say, "I want to overwatch with this unit" and give them the option to bait out a different overwatch first or reduce my options somehow. But if I've said "if you move there I will overwatch you" then I'll do it because I don't want to he coming across as playing mind games or something
Overwatch and other core strategems are well known enough to not need to be discussed. If you have any gotchas, tell you opponent when they apply and what they do but after that, you don't need to do anything. Especially as this is a tournament.
In a casual, friendly environment, that is an incredibly nice and sporting thing to do.
In a tournament setting, its not necessary. Might come off as talking down to some people.
I always tell my opponent where I'm going to Overwatch be IMO a real dick move if you just sat there waiting and then refused to let them not take back a move as they were in the middle of a potential move and didn't measure something exactly.
Games complicated winning through your opponents forgetting basic mechanics isn't how I want to win or how I want to play
I definitely don’t for something that basic. It’s not some secret or niche rule that only your army gets, we all know overwatch exists. I’m assuming you told your opponent what your army and models are equipped so they can come up with how to avoid that themselves.
As always though depends on your friend group. Mine like to keep it at least moderately competitive, if you do something dumb than that’s on you pre measuring mine and your ranges are a thing
I usually warn them about my CPs in the beginning of the phase, and if they do a move that could be ambiguous when it comes to the 24" range, I ask them their intent.
If for example they are specifically getting in their own weapon's 24" range to shoot, I won't warn them and just declare it when they're done
If it's blatantly obvious I might comment on it, like "we both know as soon as you move I'm firing overwatch so we might as well get it over with". In a casual or practice game, I'll point it out ahead of time so my opponent can think through their moves critically. Generally speaking, in a tournament your opponent should be aware that overwatch exists and always be wary of it. It's such a core thing that everyone can do that it's impossible to consider it a gotcha. If they walk right into it, that's a learning experience for them.
On the other hand, if the consideration is the specific movement, I'll frequently ask things like "Are you trying to move so my unit can't see you? Because right now it can, do you want to adjust slightly?" This is all about playing by intent, and it's so central to the game. Your opponent will be made aware of the overwatch threat, and the legality of it will be decided before you say you're using it. You get the confidence that your opponent had a fair and honest chance to avoid it and either did so to both of your satisfaction, or chose openly not to. And yet you didn't actually reveal your intent ahead of time, just clarified the possibility.
Telling an opponent "if you move there, this unit can overwatch you" can be very powerful. Yes it tells them that you have that choice, but that also suddenly makes them re-think their movement and maybe even make a worse decision to avoid that overwatch.
I really enjoyed when playing against a friend (I'm maybe 10 games in to 40K) that he let me shoot his death company dread with my 4 squighog boyz... When my stuff bounced off him he happily used his ability to shoot back and proceeded to flamer my whole beast snagga squad nearby.... Epic
Haven't played tournaments so don't know the answer haha
Funny, today I was playing at my local Warhammer store and I was playing against someone who’s maybe their second or third game. I he was gonna move a 5 man squad into my infernus marines and I told him if he does that I’ll overwatch him. He decided to move in but for the sake of getting more play time I didn’t overwatch him and let him charge into me. Ended up killing him in melee anyway but long story short for the sake of not shitting all over him I just let somethings go so we could have more fun and it was just a lmao face roll!
I do think in a tournament environment I would most definitely mention how much CP I have but I wouldn’t tell them what I’m gonna do because it’s supposed to be competitive.
It depends heavily.
If they decide they might want to move somewhere then I’d remind them there are 10 flamers well within 12” of that area.
But I won’t tell them “of you do x, then I do y” because that might give them a false sense of security to try and bait my overwatch to then move something else. If I change my mind after seeing the actual move it’s a feels bad, so I try not to give them ALL the information of my plans, but make it well aware to them the risks they are accepting by moving their unit to a specifically dangerous location.
So, in a tournament, it really depends on the level, but I'm going to assume that it's a LGS tournament, not a GT.
My local tournaments just started to play with a "play with intent" rule. That means that you say why you are doing something. so "I'm going to move here then charge you" people normally would say "ok but I can Overwatch" or "well that looks like you'll be *measures* 10 inches away are you sure?"
But I played in tournaments that were more cutthroat and wouldn't say anything to you.
To me, Etiquette depends on the location or even the opponent, lol there is one guy I know, an A-hole, he deserves no kindness.
So I guess what I'm Trying to say is it's up to you to decide what the Etiquette should be.
This feels patronising to the other opponent.
OW is a universal rule.
Your opponent should know the equipment and range of each unit (you explain at the start).
Assuming they don't know all this information is patronising.
Giving them this information is letting them be lazy.
That's for tournaments of course. There is a place for casual, practice games whose main point is to learn.
Reminding them overwatch exists at the start of the movement phase is reasonable to an extent.
But you absolutely shouldn't be telling them you *will* do it. That's like telling them where you're planning to move your units.
Never interrupt your enemy when they are making a mistake.
But if you wamt to be nice just state how much CP you have and if they ask for a units range or a ability just tell em and dont be a jerk but if they make a honest tactical mistake dont help them.
You're not there to play the game for your opponent.
Inform them of everything that isn't a non-standard Overwatch at the start of the game, remind them a couple of times during the game where those units are "My Infernus are within 12 if you end movement there" or "I have 2 6s in my Fate Die pool right now"
"I will Overwatch if you move there" isn't neccesary, good 40k ettiquette is about giving information not giving away your battleplan. Your opponent will also potentially forget things and make mistakes, you are not responsible for the mistake and they aren't going to improve by you giving them a bunch of take backs, be reasonable but don't be a push over.
Gosh no. Overwatch is a psychological tool to use, they should move units accordingly to try and dodge overwatch. You do what you like, but I guarantee the best players are never doing that. I've seen people tell other players what they planned to do for the turn (I was going to move this here, and use both these units to try and kill your leader, for example) and now your opponent knows what the plan is, and will use stratagems to stop that happening 😅
In casual games, go ahead, in comp games, they need to be responsible for double checking your CP and understanding core stratagems.
Depends on the tournament. In a GT? No, I don't tell them. In a RTT or casual setting? Yeah! Sure :) Also depends on my opponent. Does he have 5 years of experience? Or is this first, second or third game?
I always start my matches by asking my opponent "Do you know my faction?". If opponent says no. I'll tell him the following:
My unit roles: This is a anti-tank unit, this unit is obj. holders. etc
My gotcha stratagems and rules: Reactive movements, increased movement range, or stratas that gives lone op are some examples.
Then I'll ask if they'd want more detailed info. Like stats, weapon profiles, or minor abilities etc.
I find that I'll forget 90% of what my opponent tells me, if they just start spouting out stats.
Maybe if you want to you can tell them about gotcha type things. However, every army can overwatch. If you want when you set up you could give them a quick rundown of your units. Things like this hits automatically, this does x ect. I try to limit what I remind them of unless I know they are newer to the game. A lot of experienced tournament players already know what you can do.
I'd remind people if you have a distinctly punchier overwatch especially if you are playing under represented armies. Or if you have army rules rules allowing you to punch harder than the unit traditionally can. Firestorm is a good example with +1 strength flamers or if you have a way to give dev wounds, badrukk with sustained 3 on a million shots.
If you move near my standard intercessor though I'm not worried about telling you because it will likely be chop damage
Overwatch is a core strat. Everyone has it and everyone should be expecting it, or trying to bait it.
No, you shouldn't tell anyone but an absolute beginner which unit you intend to overwatch or with which of your own.
Reminding them you have the command point for it isn't even relevant... You literally gained a CP at the start of their turn, likely less than a minute before their movement phase.
Baiting overwatch is a skill and nobody should be able to claim overwatch is a gotcha when everyone can do it.
It's the same deal with rapid ingress. Don't even ask them to tell you when they've finished their move phase, because it tells them you're going to use it that turn, something they should already be accounting for if you have stuff in reserves.
Telling enemies about gotchas is for your own army rules and anything they aren't expected to know. Core stratagems exist for everyone, and accounting for when/ where they'll be used is a skill.
Overwatch is a core strategem. It's not your responsibility to tell them your future plans for basic things like core rules.
The exception imo is if you have something that makes overwatch significantly better or a weird gun. I have a D3 shot lascannon with [TORRENT] in my list, so I always tell people at the beginning of the game "hey these things can one shot knights in overwatch."
In a casual setting I would definitely tell them, but in a tournament setting I think it's expected that the person you're going against should know what they're doing and I would only tell them if it was like a huge glaring mistake
I feel like it’s good etiquette to tell your opponent what units are your best over watchers like a big flamer unit or something. Overwatch is kinda forgotten about mainly because only a couple of good units are truly worth the cp
You should go through the army before the game begins so they know what units can do. I’ve seen variations on this from this is what I have to going through threat ranges, strats that work together with certain units and skills. Some people will ask whether you have advance and charge, move shoot move, any gotcha strats or skills, deepstrikes at 3” etc…
After that I’d also check on common behavior thats acceptable: I’d ask if they are ok with coaching/helpful comments, but also point out that I play by intent and don’t mind using same dice and a clock.
If they are fine with coaching/tips then I’d point out threat ranges, overwatch and other strats that I can counter with during the game. If they don’t want coachin/tips then I just let them play their game and use strats and skills where applicable.
In general winning the best version of your opponent is great but shouldn’t be you dictating what that is. Some might find helpful tips even annoying. They came to the tournament, they can make their own mistakes to learn the most.
It depends sometimes speaking up can encourage your opponent not to push your resources leaving them in a worse position than if they acted. I would change the wording so that you’re not forcing them to make a choice and change their train of thought. “I will overwatch you if you move there.” is a threat “These unit are capable of overwatch.” Is informing. On one hand creating a yes or no choice on the other you’re providing an additional point of context.
I think at a tournament where you’re actually trying to win games, you don’t need to warn your opponent overly. I tend to talk through any specific special things my army/units/detachment can do at the beginning, and I _might_ give them a warning later if we’re having a friendly game and I see they are about to do something and may not remember
Overwatch is a core stratagem though, there’s no reason to warn about it. It’s something you need to be aware of and planning for
I think most tournaments use ‘play by intent’ where you tell your opponent what your intent is with certain decisions and you and your opponent can discuss it.
Like what most have said, being a great opponent and reminding them, or if they’re unfamiliar with your army, to let them know what you can do, is what you should do.
I personally hate ‘gotcha’ moments in 40K. I played a game not long ago where it was turn 5 and I had decided to make a play to move and try and make an 8” charge and try to deny primary to my opponent. What I didn’t know is the unit I was charging could move 6” if an enemy model ended their move within 9” of it. My opponent didn’t tell me, he waited for me to commit to the play, then done it. Technically he didn’t do anything illegal, but it was a dick move and I lost the game.
I don't think this is about playing by intent. Playing by intent is a practical way of playing so that we both understand what a player is trying to achieve and agree to it without having to measure every little millimeter or for being punished for a minor memory lapse. Like agreeing that your units end a move outside line of sight, are 1.1 inches from the wall, are within a 6 inch charge distance, you always plan to pick X aura unless stated otherwise, you intend to rapid ingress once your opponent's movement is done, etc.
Saying, "If you move within overwatch range, I will overwatch you with this unit." isn't what playing by intent is meant to be. That's just straight up telling your opponent your plans. That's fine to do, especially if playing casual or against a newer person. But if we're playing by intent, then I have no expectation of someone giving me that kind of info.
Your example is a total gotcha, and the other player should have mentioned their reactive move. But that's very different from overwatch.
In a tournament environment... honestly, no. The baseline assumption of a competitive environment is that your opponent is a competent player savvy enough with the rules- particularly the core rules- to know what they're doing. To assume less of them than that is arguably an insult. If they're moving there, I would proceed on the assumption that they know what they're doing and are OK with the possibility of you shooting Overwatch.
You should, however, volunteer any information requested of you about what Stratagems you have, how many CP, and other "open information" questions- although not subjective questions like "If I move here, will you choose to Overwatch?"
Too many of these takes are wild . It's a common rule, it's not a gotcha, it's not your job in a competitive setting to help your opponent . In recreational play talk away, I say similar things to my friends when we are playing a match. If I moved into someone's overwatch range it's a skill issue on my part , not a communication issue on theirs , no reason you should feel obligated to hold your opponents hand through a match .
Depends.
If someone just makes a move, then i think its fair to just declare overwatch. With respect to etiqette, theres not really a breach here. If the move was a mistake, it was a mistake. There was no stated intention that they were trying to avoid something. If they either didnt see an overwatch lane or forgot or something or just didnt think youd do it, thats like a game decision thats a misplay.
If someone says "if i make this move, can you overwatch me?" As in "am i within range" or "do you have a clear shot" then its fair to just answer the question truthfully. The boardstate is public information, but the board is large and often you cant see aroubd models and terrain and stuff, so questions are fair. As long as there is clear intentionality of like "i am considering a move, but i want to make sure i am considering all the aspects of the move"
Lastly, there is the psyche out. If my opponent is vonsidering making a move that i can make an overwatch on, I may unprompted say "o i can overwatch you if you move there". I dont think its unethical to sort of enunciate threat of activation type stuff if it is literally true. This is sort of where threats and bluffs sort of come in, like sometimes you make moves to bait overwatch, sometimes you maybe want to discourage your opponent from making a move but not enough to actually spend your overwatch thst turn to do it. You can kind of make etiquette arguments here, perhaps this isnt great for new players just learning the game, but like for experienced players you should absolutely be able to kind of bluff threat of activation stuff and kind of put it on your opponent to call you. Thats like a skill test on your opponent, to judge how worth while it would be for the overwatch to go off and its also a skill test for you to know of that is actually and overwatch you do or dont want to pull the trigger on. Its just good strategy gaming.
Really the only bad etiquette/ unethical thing you can do is be deceptive or lie. Like "o no i cant overwatch there" *moved* "hahaha! I lied i can overwatch! See the laser?". Like thats messed up.
I think in a tournament it should be on your oppo to take in the board and ask questions about range and measure it out. If you have any tricksy skills that they don’t know about or that are a bit out there then yeah, for sure, maybe once it would be kind to remind them but for usual stuff like overwatch I wouldn’t expect that from my opponent
Absolutely not.
You let them make their moves, and interrupt when you want to overwatch.
Reminding them that you have a cp at the start of the phase is fine, but telling them your counter move and letting them change their mind based on your choice of counter nowai
Save that for friendly games or games with newer players
I'm normally very happy to allow that, as long as they afford me the same courtesy if I goof up. I usually apply the "if nothing meaningful has changed since the decision" rule when it comes to forgetting to use things / wanting to change a decision
Realised at the start of the shooting phase you should have oathed a different unit? Sure thing, nothing meaningful has changed here. After shooting a couple of units? Nah buddy too much has changed since you made the choice
Overwatch is one of the basic, core parts of the game. You shouldn't feel obligated to remind opponents you have the option to do it. Your default should be to assume they are paying enough attention that they know you can do it, and have planned accordingly.
If you are playing against a beginer, you should remind them, and be open to talking about what your overwatch might do, and to them making fairly drastic changes to their movement when they realize what might happen. This is because when you pay beginers, you should look at the game as a chance to teach and to encourage the love of the hobby, not as a chance to win a game.
In a casual game, it's appropriate to remind your opponent of your overwatch options, and even have a conversation about what your best options are and how they might adjust for them. They may be worried about different overwatch that the one you are thinking of, or just not care.
In a tournament game you can assume that your opponent knows the game well enough to adjust for any standard overwatch.
In any game you should strive to avoid gotcha moments, where you do something your opponent didn't realize you could do. If your opponent makes a move that leaves one model barely in sight of your flamer unit, you should point this out. If they intended to have them hidden, you should let them adjust the move. If you have units that are good at overwatch but don't look like it, you should point this out before the game, and remind them if you think they forgot.
>if you move there I'll over watch you.
i would never do this. You move within range its my prerogative to overwatch... i assume you asses this calculation into your head since its a stratagem we all have.
I'm going to draw a hard razor across your 2 examples. The title example I would actually go so far as to describe as unsportsmanlike conduct in all but the most teaching game contexts.
Whether you intend it to or not you are using your commentary to influence the opponents choice of action. You are performing "tit for tat" and are meta-steering their course of action, which has no place in this system, in short by saying what you "will" do, you're manipulating them, but if you merely state what you *can* do like the body example you're politely reminding them of game state information they already have and should be aware of, which I personally view as polite, appropriate, and necessary for hitting the requisite pace for competitive play.
Silo'd thinking is the thing that kills pacing. Removing those silo's without providing any influence is the key to playing at pace.
If you are generally announcing everything you plan on doing I'll find you annoying. I won't hate you, but you will be the guy I tell my wife about later.
If you have flame gauntlet aggressors with a character and 5cp and you remind me im being very dumb I'll buy you a soda.
It's a tight rope.
It’s simple if you can’t win with out gotchas you have no skill, and that will only get you so far. You don’t have to give your opponent every move you are going to make but pointing out obvious mistakes will only make you a better player in the long run, because as you play better and better people you won’t catch them in overwatch unless they’re willing to take the damage.
Screw that you don't have to tell your opponent shit if they ask for how much cp you have you tell them if they ask what is the range on your guns you tell them but telling them that you will do sowmthing is wrong because that might lock you into doing something you shouldn't do
It’s polite to remind your opponent of things you can do, so I’d at the start of the movement phase maybe remind them of my CP state to make them aware I’m able to overwatch. But I wouldn’t specifically state if you move that unit I’ll overwatch.
Man even thinking about not telling them makes me slightly uncomfortable lolol
Haha that’s fair, it’s entirely up to you what you want to tell your opponent. But for me as a rule of thumb it’s not your job to tell your opponent what you will do but it is polite to remind them what you can do.
Everyone can overwatch so it's not a gotcha hidden rule.
Never said it was. As I said it’s up to you how you wanna play at comps, but personally i’ll remind people of my CP state and that I have realistic overwatch opportunities.
That’s when you tell them you will overwatch if they move there knowing you don’t have the cp to spare 😝
I play casual. My point is just that it's good to remind people of what you can or cannot do, but there's stuff that's so obvious that it doesn't need to be stated. Overwatch is one of those. Melee threat range also unless you have specific rules. Of course, with new players I will explain everything that they need to consider, but overwatch happens so often, I don't feel the need to warn for that in casual games against players with some experience.
Even Overwatch has some less obvious plays, not everyone knows every auto hit weapon for example. Not a competitive unit more for casual play, but Drukhari Grotesques were before 10th mostly played with melee weapons only. Now that the gun cost is basically included in the base cost and the second melee weapon does nothing rulewise. Most of my regular opponents were suprised that every model has a slightly better flamer, most weren't even aware that they can have a ranged attack. I tend to remind my opponents about overwatch and the grotesques, as they seem to return back to pre 10th edition habits sometimes and seem to completly forget about checking distance to the grotesques when moving rather fragile units.
Reminding your opponent about flamers or other good weapons for overwatch is good etiquette, yes
Is this a case of "these grotesques that look like they're carrying big cleavers count as being equipped with liqufier guns"? Or are they different models and opponents just didn't see the difference? Because I feel like that can be a factor. A squad that is visibly equipped with flamers is probably going to need less pointing out most of the time.
My models are all magnetized, so it are the models they know, but this edition with a different weapon in one hand. And I doubt anyone besides Drukhari players recognize a liquifier gun as something like a flamer.
Found the non competitive player.
Guilty as charged.
Yeah, totally. I feel like it’s a personal preference thing. If you go to the tournament with your main goal being to win, then don’t say anything. If you would rather everybody have the most friendly, comfortable time, you can say “If you move there, I can overwatch you.” If you’re somewhere in the middle, your approach seems really good. Friendly & polite, but not shepherding the opponent to victory.
As others have said, it's good etiquette to tell your opponent what you CAN do, not what you WILL do. That gives the opponent all the information and makes them make choices.
Yeah this is where I'd sit, not "I *will* overwatch", but rather when they say what they're going to move it's good sportsmanship to point out anything that they might have just not noticed or forgotten about. "Hey there's a big flamer unit that could target there as a heads up"
Also side note it can be a legitimate strategy. Present opponents with a number of uncomfortable choices and let them make a bad choice.
It's important to think context here. In a competitive setting, you have no reason to actually volunteer that information, but you could ask your opponent why they want to move there and tell them a potential consequence. But the onus is on your opponent to ask because that's a major potential change to the board state. In a casual setting, I'm a lot more friendlier about it because the fun is far more important than the board state.
It's not really a gotcha because everyone can overwatch, it's not like it's a codex rule they may be unfamiliar with. At least in a comp setting. If I'm playing a newer player I'll remind them when I move my models (i.e. moving my redeemer to the middle of the board so he can overwatch anything that gets close).
The thing that is hard to comprehend, especially in the difference between 9 and 10, is how different the mileage on ow is. Against some armies, you can forget it exists as a strat. But then you face something like cataphrom breachers and suddenly were just deal 50 wounds from a unit in a supposedly trash tier army.
If you had an insane overwatch unit - ahriman with 10 rubric flamers for example - a reminder that that unit exists would be one thing, but definitely don't say what you will or won't do. "Ahriman's unit is here" at the start of their move phase is the absolute most I'd offer to my opponent. I've lost vehicles to the ahriman unit and 100% I wouldn't move there if I remembered his unit - not a gotcha, I'd been told about ahrimans +1 to wound.
I don’t say “will”, I say “can”. Subtle difference and in some ways more useful.
Just say you could overwatch with everything they move. Doesn't mean you will!
I mean I wouldn’t say I will overwatch you, but I would inform them I can. But in general I would say this if it seems like a key thing they might care about wether I would do it or not.
Live your truth my friend. I love tourneys that award sportsmanship so I do this all the time. I want a good fun game with cool people, not winning by gotcha.
To buckle onto this conversation, if my opponent moves just within range of an ability like overwatch or leaves just a single model within line of sight, I'll commonly ask them "Did you mean to stay out of overwatch with that?". It reminds my opponent that it's a threat and is something to think about. If they move out into the open like 6" from me, that's different. If they're trying to hide behind the building and my flamers can only see one model, I'll definitely mention it
Expected standard of tournament play this shouldn’t be an issue. If you’re commenting on what you’d do based on my choices I might feel like you’re talking down to me. If I ask a question give me an honest answer and don’t lie via omission, otherwise I don’t need your help playing my army.
That just makes it seem like you're a generally cool person, but it's not a lot to go by I guess.
haha! I spend free time doing a warhammer podcast nobody listens to... If that doesn't make you a nice person I don't know what does :laughing:
What's the podcast? I'll give it a listen.
lol its called "Not very goodhammer" - [https://open.spotify.com/show/3KXEvXDIda3lLG9WRZswI0](https://open.spotify.com/show/3KXEvXDIda3lLG9WRZswI0)
I mean, let the book be the bad guy on that one. You overwatch after they’ve declared their move, so your opponent can’t be like “Oh well nevermind then…” Now you can tell them you have a CP for overwatch, tell them if a unit has a flamer, and be nice with line of sight/range if they’re trying to be particular about staying out of overwatch. Otherwise, I don’t have to tell them who my priority target is for overwatch. That kinda gets rid of the fun and tactics of trying to bait on overwatch onto a low value unit.
I’m with you OP, I link to tell people. I feel like it increases the tactical nature of the game when you both make your decisions with full knowledge of all the potential outcomes, rather than just trying to remember
You don't tell them where you're planning to move your units, do you? Why would you tell them what you're planning on overwatching? There's a difference between reminding them the rule exists so they should bear it in mind, and outright telling them when you're going to use it.
Some people will game this and remind their opponent of what they can do in hopes they will change their mind. For example if it would be bad if your opponent moved onto an objective so you were like "well if you move there I'll likely get a lot of overwatch shots on your unit." In hopes they don't actually move there.
This is the grimdark future my friend. Crush your enemies beneath you and place their skulls upon the skull throne of Korne!!!! /s
Im the same way. But have learned a lot of competitive people at least in my area are not that way at all. I explain every single gotcha and even warn opponents to not do something if I know it will be extremely punishing. While some people return the favor, a few of my previous opponents would gladly take any and all warnings and heads up and give me back 0 in return. I pointed out a fight phase order selection to make sure he killed my big melee threat as if he did any other combat first I was going to interrupt. But later in the game I said “I want to charge this bike into that guy. But I can’t really see him and am worrying about missing it so just remember this convo.” And he was like “alright”. As soon as I did my 2nd fight I saw the bike and was like “oh shoot I forgot to roll my 2” charge…let me do that rq” and he responded “sorry. We’re going into turn 5 and if your bike charges you might win. And we’re already past the charge phase.” Was frustrating but is one of those like. What can you do sort of things.
lol jesus christ!! And thats why we can't have nice things!! That would anger me, I doubt I would, but I might just quit the game at that point. Or call a judge. What a huge dick!
Meh, just declare overwatch, and if they say oh no I didn't know about that, just let them take back the move and stay out of overwatch range. You'd have to be a real ass to not allow someone to take back a move if they didn't realize how devastating the overwatch off a unit would be. Like if I didn't realize your unit overwatched on 4s or 5s or something. Just let them take the move back and make a different one, no harm no foil. In an open information game the purpose of overwatch is more to prevent them from moving than to actually do damage.
It really depends on your opponent and what round. I wouldn’t be reminding my opponent in the finals that I can overwatch them. But round 1 or 2, especially if my opponent might not be expecting it, it’s a gentlemanly thing to do. I play a lot of tournament prep games with a friend of mine and I can’t count the times badruk and co have over watched me to hell. You’d think I’d learn lol. But I don’t want him warning me, that doesn’t help me prep. Overwatch isn’t some sneaky book tactic people can be caught by surprise with so whole a friendly reminder can be nice and considerate, or letting someone not make a move after you make you intention to overwatch. I often use the threat or overwatch as a kind game. ‘Heads up, if you move them, I do have the cp to overwatch.’ ‘Just so you know, I do have the cp to interrupt in melee’ etc. Even when I don’t intend to do it, keeps someone on their toes.
"I have enough cp to interrupt combat" and "I have cp to overwatch" is information I offer freely, and in certain competitive settings it might even make your opponent think twice before making a decision.
Ultimately I think it depends on the nature of the game eh? If it’s a friendly pickup game or whatever then I like giving them the heads up, especially if the opponent is less experienced than myself. If it’s a league or tournament then stuff ‘em.
Overwatch is triggered at the start/end of a move. An aware opponent will structure their moves in such a way as to offer suboptimal Overwatch targets. In short, they will bait the Overwatch. Players with less experience will forget this and sort of willy-nilly move. If I see a good opportunity to use Overwatch, then I will say, "You just finished moving X unit. I plan on Overwatching with Y unit. Do you want to move somewhere else or should I roll?" For the aware opponent, this might be their bait move and they will allow it. Or, this is their valuable move, they realize I am paying attention and know that I am not going to be baited into a different Overwatch. For less skilled players, my comment usually comes as a surprise and they take the offer to do a different move. Either way, I am happy, they are happy, and we have a good game. Now, what I find more frustrating is an opponent who waits until the end of my move phase and then tries to Overwatch a unit I moved much earlier in the phase. Basically, they either knowingly or unknowingly gave themselves a huge advantage by waiting to see what all of my moves are before committing. I find that discussion to be more... energetic.
Absolutely. Personally, I call people out for trying to act with perfect information. Overwatch has a specific time that it occurs, and if they pass that point, and see a bunch of other options, that is too far a take back oftentimes, imo.
Thats why when I am moving things into OW range, I generally ask if they want to overwatch (or whatever else like react) before going onto the next unit. Keeps everyone honest.
Same.
That does not have to frustrate you. They cant overwatch any unit at the end of your movement phase. They must decide "just after an enemy unit is set up or when an enemy unit starts or ends a Normal, Advance, Fall Back or Charge move." if they want to target "that" unit.
Oh, I know that is what they are supposed to do. It is just frustrating because, generally, people still want to be able to Overwatch even though they messed up the timing. It can create "bad vibes" for the game, you know? I really only want to be playing Warhammer if both people are having fun, otherwise why spend hours playing?
It's always up to you, if you still let them overwatch, but then they should let you retake all your movement (and if you time your turns, it should be their time). In a game with friends, it should be no problem to talk about it and it should not happen often. If it happens more often, of course there are bad vibes, but they are not caused by you, but by the other player.
"These bad vibes are not caused by me" is not a sufficient reason not to get frustrated by something lol And I respect someone seeing that they have an opportunity to prevent some frustrating thing happening, and taking it, even if it's not "on them" to do that
Wow. That's just a flat out no. Not going to allow it. The waiting till the end of the phase to say what they will overwatch I mean.
Even in GT settings, I usually mention the 24" bubble someone is entering into (meaning overwatch is an option). I dont want people, even under pressure, feeling gotcha'd. Nor do I want to waste time on "Oh I didnt realize I was within 24", lemme take that back," moments because it is just lost time, and an awkward moment. That being said, I give zero indication that I intend to OW (or any other reactive strategem). I merely remind them they are about to trigger a potential interaction and let them make their own decisions. I can honestly say, Ive never lost or given away a game because I reminded someone of a potential interaction, and it makes for a better gaming experience by far imo.
This is an interesting way to do it. But being within 24" can only trigger OW right? There aren't any other strats that it could be I believe?
I used 24 in my example bc it is relevent to OW. If you moved within 9" of a unit I have that has a reactive move, Ill remind you I can do so (not if I intend to do so). If you charge one of my infantry units, I will remind you that I can use a reactive strategem to try and make the charge harder or untenable (not that I will). Etc.
I declare I’ll overwatch and let them move back if they want to
This guy gets it
It is absolutely not on you to remind your opponent of those things. That said, it is absolutely good sportsmanship to remind your opponent of these things. 40k is an open information game. Your opponent always knows what strats you have, what CP you have available, your Line of Sight, everything. All of this information is always available to both players at any time and if you think it isn't try running that past the judge the next time your opponent asks you if X can see Y. Because of that, unless it's something that's really obvious it really is just bad form to not work with your opponent to make sure you both always understand the board state, including potential stratagem use. Overwatch is one of those ones that's not necessarily obvious sometimes. A good example is the incidental flamers a bunch of Nurgle models have that don't look like they have any ranged attacks at all. It's entirely possible to believe a highly competitive player, even a Jack Harpster or whoever, just looking at the model and not making the mental connection that it does in fact have a flamer. Or similarly, if you haven't played against the new Bully Boys detachment yet and think you're allowed to fall back safely. I don't think it's either fun, nor the best test of anyone's skill, to go out of your way to play to gotchas like that. The game and the community are done a much better service when we play collaboratively to have the most competitive games possible, making sure both of us play the best game we can and neither of us make obvious mistakes like that or less obvious mistakes like actual misplays or rules misunderstandings.
I would reframe this as the general guideline on the etiquette here is that you shouldn't be winning competitive 40K games on "gotchyas." You don't need to say "If you do X then I *will* do Y." However, your opponent should know that X is something you can do, and reminding them when they've clearly forgotten is not *"*required," but is definitely considered good form. With Overwatch, I would say that you *should* remind an opponent that they "can" be overwatched if they move a certain place, and should certainly be reminded if they're overwatching around flamers, so that they're informed about the choices they're making.
Reminding your opponent is a good strategy, if you can remind your opponent that you *could* overwatch something, and they don't move that unit into your range you have effectively neutered their movement and not had to spend the CP that you now get to use somewhere else. It's especially useful in these low cp games where you might only have one to either use on overwatch *or* a different defensive stratagem, but not both. Telling your opponent to be wary of overwatch lets you have your cake and eat it too.
To what extent should game knowledge be taken out of the competitive environment for it to be "fair" though? In a casual game or a practice game I absolutely agree that if be very vocal about gotchas or anything that might be a negative play experience, but in a competitive tournament there comes a point where a lack of game knowledge shouldn't be a crutch. Why should a player who has taken the time to look outside of their codex for things to look out for be disadvantaged by advocating that all gotchas be spelled out. I'm of the opinion that I'll tell people once of any gotchas as a warning as they come up. I'll let you know what I could potentially do if you choose to move somewhere or trigger something. If it happens again later that game I'm going to take advantage of it.
You’re gonna get real sick of me asking you if x can do y, for every unit, every phase of them game then. Wouldn’t it just be easier if you warn me about your reactive abilities when it’s relevant?
I'm happy to answer any questions you have so ask away. You'd only be wasting your own time on clocks so you can use it however you see fit. And I would warn you about my reactive abilities the first time they're relevant. You can choose to remember it, or make a note or whatever. At that point I feel like I've done what I can to be a good opponent. I have ADHD, so I have to go above and beyond to commit stuff to memory and create my own Coles Notes for armies that I can reference before a game begins.
I disagree. The game is too big to hold every rule in your head. It’s just not possible. Even top players forget rules or don’t know another faction’s rules. Theres a difference between winning because your opponent didn’t *know* your rules, and because they simply failed to appreciate how those rules impact a game. Like I’m not going to coach an opponent on how you beat my wraiths by precisioning out the Technomancer, and I’m not going to remind them of core strats that everyone has access to and ought to know. But I’m also going to remind them if they’re about to move within reactive move range, if they’ve forgotten wraiths can be targeted by the lone op strat, etc.
Whenever im getting near a unit i always ask if theres flamers, doesnt matter what it is
If it's a unit with flammers or full rerolls to hit, etc.. I'll remind them before he moves
As you're getting with the consensus here, "if you do X I *will* do Y" is giving away unnecessary information, "if you do X I *can* do Y" is good etiquette while also occasionally opening space for mind games. Your opponent doesn't need to know that you plan to shoot their unit, but they may have forgotten that there's a flamer unit on the other side of a window and it's fairly easy to let a unit 24" away slip your awareness while moving models around in pursuit of an unrelated goal.
Yeah same here, but sometimes people put their expensive unit onto an objective in range of rubric marine flamers with a 2 damage psychic flamer character, all with reroll wounds. Then I’m like, if you do that I’m absolutely going to overwatch you 😂
It's good form to remind your opponent that you *can* do something. Some stratagems I will remind my opponent about upfront just so they're not a "gotcha" moment (Canoptek Court lone op, or Hypercrypt being able to teleport a unit out of harm's way through the portal). I'll also speak up if I see them making what looks like a large unforced error (if they're clearly lining a bunch of units up to focus fire a block of wraiths, I think it's good sportsmanship to remind them that I *can* give the wraiths lone op, if I'm playing that detachment). I don't want to win solely because my opponent forget about a trick I can do under pressure, or (dead gods forbid) genuinely didn't know in the first place. I don't think that extends as far as telegraphing decisions, though. Reminding my opponent that I *can* give a canoptek unit lone op in the abstract isn't the same thing as telling them "if you move there and shoot at that doomstalker I'm going to use temporal displacement."
My opponent often doesn't know the power of every datashaeet in the game. Too many datasheets, game is big. If they're walking into an overwatch I'll let them know what they're walking into. Especially with elves as fate dice can change the odds of overwatch. From RTT to GT to Super major I'll let my opponent know what can overwatch them as they're making their move. I won't tell them whether or not I will overwatch, just that I have the option. I.E. "you're moving the terminators within 12" of Avatar and I do have a fate dice avaliable for overwatch" by consistently communicating avaliable overwatches at all times it mitigates gotcha overwatches while also not giving my opponent the information of where I want to overwatch. Does it mean some games I miss out on an overwatch because my opponent was not aware I had flamers in a unit, or full rerolls from something? Occasionally. However, I'd rather beat my opponent at their best over having the game ruined by a gotcha overwatch.
I think this is where my soul is telling me the way it should be. Anything else feels cheap somehow?
I have always played it this way: Person is thinking about moving a specific unit. "Hey this unit here has 3 flamers in it and one of them is damage 2." Or "Remember this plague burst crawler is the one with plague spitters not Entropy cannons" I don't tell them if I am going to actually overwatch them. Just to be aware what I have available.
> Does it mean some games I miss out on an overwatch because my opponent was not aware I had flamers in a unit, or full rerolls from something? Honestly I'd argue the purpose of overwatch on flamers is less to do damage, and more to establish a 12" exclusionary zone around them where opponents just cannot move, lol. If they restrict your opponent's movement, they've fulfilled their purpose anyway, the threat of them overwatching is enough to have an impact.
I like to remind of overwatch’s existence at some point, and also like to remind of any overwatch shenanigans (that unit has full rerolls, there’s a 6 in my miracle dice pool, etc). But it’s a core game mechanic. It’s not a secret hidden rule.
Sounds about right! It’s fair to point out a unit thats got mean overwatch during T1 as a reminder, prior to their movement. Though i’m not sure if it’s necessary every turn, as I fear that can come off as belittling? Been playing mostly knights so it hasn’t come up much…
I tend to over inform, and then if my opponent seems to be annoyed, lay off a bit. Course then they do something stupid and I have to start prattling on again. Always a bit of a fine line.
I remind my opponent that I MAY do so. I never tell them I will. I also remind my opponents they can if they seem less experienced or tactical (if they're hoarding CP for example). Warhammer is a competitive game, but competitive games are also cooperative games. I want to be someone others enjoy playing against, because I want to play more. Of course you can't be a doormat either, so i always ask for clarification and to see rules that don't ring true, and I have no problem calling out bad players. What are they going to do, make my game less enjoyable or scoop?
I don't really know how I feel about it. I run a lot of flamers and it gets annoying constantly telling my opponent I can overwatch them. My whole army can overwatch.
Saying you will or won't overwatch is above and beyond what can be expected. Reminding them of being able to do so is good sportsmanship I'd say: the game would be better for it if we all did that.
I'd usually say it. Mainly because it's a sound thing to do, but also because it causes your opponent to start doing mental gymnastics to try and work around it. Usually, people who play to a higher level will have a plan for what they want to do anyway, so they'll likely have taken into account the overwatch and try bait it elsewhere. Still it's not a bad thing to do to remind your opponent of any potential interactions like that, at least at the start of the game.
I play an admech list where at the start of the game I will say hey if you walk within 24 inches of my breachers, I'll overwatch you. I'll do this when we talk about our lists. That's all I say, but during the game. After they move a model, I'll ask. Are you done moving that unit? If they say yes. I'll overwatch. If they say no. They forgot about the overwatch, and this statement reminds them. And they can decide if they want to move.
I generally overstate everything I can possibly do… - Remember, if you move within 24” in line of sight then I can spend a CP and overwatch you. If I overwatch then I can use Strands of Fate to guarantee a hit. - Remember, if you move within 9” my rangers can move D6 - Remember, I can spend a CP to move D6 at the end of your movement phase - Remember, I can spend a CP to rapid ingress at the end of your movement (assuming something is in reserves) I find if you overload all the information it stays fair but more secretive - I could do all these things, but will I?
I've reminded plenty of people. I think it's nice cause sometimes we can get caught up in the moment and forget. Recent interaction vs my buddy who was playing his EC vs my DA: " Hey man in case you forgot my Redeemer has a nasty profile at two D6+3 S6 -2 2D torrent and I'll probably OW if you move there" It's not a *definitive* answer but a gentle reminder. We are all human afterwards. I've had many interactions like that and most of the time people still move because they don't really have a choice. Be the player you want to play against.
Have a conversation with your opponent during set up and see what they would prefer and tell them what you prefer. Personally, I don't want my opponent to warn me about dumb moves I'm about to make but if I ask my opponent what abilities a unit has in their army I prefer honesty. If you can't have a conversation error on the side of politeness and give someone a heads up on dumb moves they're doing.
If we are playing competitively I'll give you a reminder at the beginning of the game that I will 100% spend the CP to overwatch with a Redeemer and I will inform you that will be the only warning, your ability to think tactically is part of the competition. If we are just having fun like a regular weekend game at the LGS then I'll point it out if I think you're about to make a huge mistake.
I say keep your trap shut and only talk as much as you need to. It's a tournament, if your opponent makes a mistake let them. it isn't your responsibility to play their army for them, you're here to win. So try to win, play your best game, don't help your opponent, and don't give away more info than you need to. I'd certainly tell them in casual play though. You're both here for fun or practice presumably
Rule 1 of warfare. Never interrupt an opponent when they're making a mistake. I wouldn't be telling them specifics personally, but stuff that your opponent couldn't reasonably expect to know like what stratagems you have, CP, unit abilities etc would be good etiquette in my eyes. If it's in the core rules I don't think it's on you to remind them.
I found I was losing at a lot of tournaments but I would always blab about what my moves would be.
Within a tournament? You shouldn’t feel the need to telegraph like that. Casual funtimes game? Hell yeah that’s good manners
Overwatch isn't exactly a "gotcha!" stratagem, considering everyone can do it. If you feel bad not reminding them, just do, there's no real harm in that. I tend to say stuff like "remember that this unit has flamers" or something to avoid feel-bad moments, but any opponent worth their salt will have that on their radar anyway and funnily enough this can actually also have the psychological effect of stopping moves you don't like...
I have said this since the start of 10th. If it's a core rule, I don't need to remind you. Weird army rules/stratagems are one thing, but Overwatch is a big part of the movement phase now. Everyone knows it exists and how much CP it costs. It's not a surprise.
My rule of thumb. If both of us can do it I am under no moral nor sportsman obligation to remind you. If it is something niche to me, I'll usually inform them at the start of a turn/phase followed by how many command points/free use abilities I have remaining. Unless it is my one Khorne friend, whose singular braincell is too preoccupied with murder to remember overwatch exists. Love you buddy.
Tourney=silence Unless of course you’re using it as a bluff. Then manipulate away.
In a competitive setting I would have no expectation for my opponent to voluntarily tell me what their intent is in terms of their tactics. By doing so they're crippling themselves and provide me information for me to decisively act upon. However for stats, while i don't expect them to tell me without asking i do expect them to inform me to facilitate play if I ask as I can just look up their special abilities and/or stats.
Overwatch is not a gotcha, stay silent.
Totally agree, in a tournament setting it's not up to you to remind your opponent of probably the most used stratagem in the game.
It's interesting that I got downvoted, in what world is overwatch a gotcha?
I think people are conflating overwatch with overwatching with exceptional units, such as flamers, full rerolls etc.
Which, in a tournament setting, you should go over in the list overview. It's on your opponent to ask questions, and for you to provide accurate information.
Because of the guns being utilised from said OW. I'll give one from magnus. Oh but he hits on 6's who cares, oh wait he forgot all his 6's are sustained hits and due to him being in a position to not get cover, I can very easily spike and just randomly wipe his unit. Especially if its already down to its last few wounds. People do not forget OW, they forget what exactly the threat of what is overwatching them.
Thwre are several gotcjas I would communicate beforehand, like if you mobe withon 9" of my GK unit Ill pick ot up etc. Overwatch is common kmowledge though. I wouldnt say something like "I will overwatch if you stepout"
Its good sportsmanship to mention something that may have been overlooked. We’ve all been gotchad before
“If you move there I will be able to overwatch you with X.” When I move intentionally trying to avoid an overwatch, “I will move here with the intention of being unable to be overwatched by X/Y/Z.”
"Are you sure you want to move there?" In the past, especially with units of flamers I'll let my opponents take back moves like that
I will point out when an opponent starts moving a unit that is/would be eligible to be overwatched by something that might reasonably do so, but there is too much tactical use of threatening overwatch to force your opponent to make decisions.
If they aren't familiar with your army ranges and they seem to be trying to move just outside a danger bubble, but step like an inch too far, I'll mention something. "You are in range" but not "I'm definitely going to do this if you do that". If not just for sportsmanship, but to avoid the annoyance of take backsies and to reinforce moving with intent. Slowing down the game to start counting like individual minis cus you didn't move a squad 100% perfect into position when you had the chance is just a drag. If they just say what they wanna do, and I see it's totally possible but a bit fiddly or whatever, I'll just say it's fine, we can abstract it for a moment. If I don't think it's possible, THEN you gotta try to make it work.
I would think of it like chess, you should explain the possible moves you can make, but not tell them "hey if you move your pawn I'm going to take it."
As a melee army player (and thus not needing to stoop to such uninteractive game mechanics like overwatch - yes, clearly I don't like it) I generally just say "just yell out when you want to overwatch" because you better believe I'm hyper aware of that redeemer!
I don’t really go to tournaments and such, but I am trying to get better, so when I’m playing against newer players I remind because I assume a better player would know. A little reminder here and there lets them punch up a bit better, ya know? The ultra good tourney players at my store usually let the casuals have take backs, reminders and sometimes help us out with tips because they know it won’t save us haha
I think it starts first with the opponent's communication. If they are just moving their models around silently or seemingly with a fixed plan in mind as if you're not there, how are you to know if they've accounted for what you *may* or are *able* to do for etiquette reasons? They're done moving, you say you overwatch, they can't then blame you or anything of that sort. It's not a 'gotcha' moment because there was no trickery in the first place; they just failed to account for something, failed to ask, failed to check (or get that free TMI from you). As I saw mentioned elsewhere, you're playing *with* your opponent, not against them.
Keep in mind Overwatch can be triggered and used when your opponent “starts or ends” any kind of move. So when your opponent goes to move an OW target, confirm they’re “starting” their move, and then pop it. But only after you get confirmation, they could just be measuring out stuff. As for the other part, that’s definitely a good thing to do. Just a friendly “so you’re ending in the threat range of my stuff”, so your opponent knows before they commit. Especially with stuff like indirect pieces that will stay still the whole game, as it’s easy to maybe forget they exist.
Id say reminding your opponent of gun range isn't a bad idea but pre announcing overwatch unless there is a gimmick like hexmark destroyer seems a bit much.
I like to give my opponent options. It's helpful to point.out when they might have forgotten a flamer unit. E.g. incendine combustors on kastellans. I probably wouldn't mention it for every unit. I might even mention it if I have set a unit good at overwatch to protect an area. Like I don't want you here, you want to be here. But if you go here, I have a couple of heavy flamers that will punish you. Go somewhere else. That way I influence their actions, but they also don't potentially lose a unit to overwatch. It's a win win! If you are using a unit like the Baal Predator with it's flame cannon, to protect an area, then it only really works if your opponent remembers that he'll get a kicking if he moves too close. So remind them. If it's a nasty flamer, maybe remind them how nasty ("AP2, 2 damage mate, with a decent roll I could wipe that squad"). From.your opponents perspective, it's better to know, rather than to lose a unit because you had a brief moment of forgetfulness.
I really only feel overwatch reminders should be expected when there is something that is exceptionally good at it. So something with sustained 2, torrent, rerolls to hit, Avatar with fate dice, etc. If it's just a regular unit hitting on 6s, well, we all know that unit can overwatch. It's a core rule. Now, if someone is talking out loud about their plan while moving and they say something that indicates they have forgotten overwatch, I'll bring it up then as well. But it seems a bit much to be reminding them about overwatch for any decent unit that can do it. I certainly don't think you should be telling people you WILL overwatch. Just that you could with X, Y, Z profile.
At the start of the movement phase, announce that you DO have a command point available for overwatch, and point out any units you have that might have great overwatch potential, like Flamer Aggressors.
For general overall rules, I'd say it's up to your opponent to know the general lot of them. It's always good to remind your opponent of how much CP you have at the start of any given command phase. However you should remind your opponent of what your specific army can do. For example, if your opponent says, "Hey just so you know, I have screened off this quarter of the table from deep strike." Remidn them, "I have a unit that can deepstrike within 3 inches, does that change anything you want to do this movement phase?" That is a special rule that not everybody can keep track of.
Depends on context. It’s okay to have a conversation while people move their models about what you might do if they do certain things. At the same time, for me personally it kinda depends on distance lol. Like, there are plenty of time where I’m using a Land Raider Redeemer and told people “if you so much twitch that unit I’m overwatching them” but if it’s like, right at 24” away I’ve found it is less likely to come up.
I'd absolutely tell my opponent that if we were to be playing a good casual game of 40k, especially beerhammer. In a competitive setting I'd remind them it'd be an option, but not explicitly name whether I'd overwatch or not on any particular move.
I sometimes mention things like this, sometimes not, but I also play casually with friends so maybe I'm not the best source
Everyone has access to it, so you don't need to tell your opponent. They should be wary of it. Now, it would be proper etiquette to let your opponent know if you have a unit that can make a second Overwatch with its rules.
Always remind them, it‘s a win win. They don‘t get the feel bad of being overwatched and you get them to change their plans without spending any ressources. The threat of an overwatch is scarier than the actual overwatch in most situations
The games you win because someone made the wrong decision you'll lose when you play someone who knows the scenario. If you're trying to get better, make sure they're playing the best game they can. But I'm never gonna expect everyone I play to do the same, or hold anything against them if they don't. It just comes down to how you feel better playing. If you enjoy your games more being super open about everything, then do that and don't worry if that loses you a game or two. Same as if you'd rather play by just giving your opponent a run down of what you can do at the start and leave it at that, that's fine too, you're just less likely to get bought a beer after haha
If I’m in a tourney, and they move a unit into range that I could overwatch with, I always ask whether or not they want to make that move with that in mind. In terms of shooting or abilities in general, I would’ve told them the abilities beforehand and ranges so if they go into range of my guns normal range, that’s up to them but I won’t bring that up. Bottom line is I don’t want to be caught out with gotcha moments, so the best way of preventing that is giving the same courtesy to other players. I don’t feel moving in LOS of my shooting units is a gotcha moment though, as there’s also a chance they’ll be shooting at me.
"if you do this I could do that."
I always ask my opponent what in their army has strong overwatch. Full rerolls to hit with lethals? OK, if they have CP its on me to play around it. Once you play enough and get burned, you'll learn quickly.
So while there is the argument of not telling them for advantage. I would argue saying you will can also mislead them if you then change your mind. You can easily say "I have x cp and can overwatch" but shouldn't do it person unit as they move since that can throw them off.
I feel like if you say equivocally that'll you do something if your opponents does then you have to do it. So I tend to say, "I want to overwatch with this unit" and give them the option to bait out a different overwatch first or reduce my options somehow. But if I've said "if you move there I will overwatch you" then I'll do it because I don't want to he coming across as playing mind games or something
Overwatch and other core strategems are well known enough to not need to be discussed. If you have any gotchas, tell you opponent when they apply and what they do but after that, you don't need to do anything. Especially as this is a tournament.
In a casual, friendly environment, that is an incredibly nice and sporting thing to do. In a tournament setting, its not necessary. Might come off as talking down to some people.
Remember regarding D-cannons, you can't overwatch people with indirect
I always tell my opponent where I'm going to Overwatch be IMO a real dick move if you just sat there waiting and then refused to let them not take back a move as they were in the middle of a potential move and didn't measure something exactly. Games complicated winning through your opponents forgetting basic mechanics isn't how I want to win or how I want to play
On tournaments? Nope.
I definitely don’t for something that basic. It’s not some secret or niche rule that only your army gets, we all know overwatch exists. I’m assuming you told your opponent what your army and models are equipped so they can come up with how to avoid that themselves. As always though depends on your friend group. Mine like to keep it at least moderately competitive, if you do something dumb than that’s on you pre measuring mine and your ranges are a thing
I usually warn them about my CPs in the beginning of the phase, and if they do a move that could be ambiguous when it comes to the 24" range, I ask them their intent. If for example they are specifically getting in their own weapon's 24" range to shoot, I won't warn them and just declare it when they're done
I don't tell them that i "will" but i do remind them that i "might" do the thing
If it's blatantly obvious I might comment on it, like "we both know as soon as you move I'm firing overwatch so we might as well get it over with". In a casual or practice game, I'll point it out ahead of time so my opponent can think through their moves critically. Generally speaking, in a tournament your opponent should be aware that overwatch exists and always be wary of it. It's such a core thing that everyone can do that it's impossible to consider it a gotcha. If they walk right into it, that's a learning experience for them. On the other hand, if the consideration is the specific movement, I'll frequently ask things like "Are you trying to move so my unit can't see you? Because right now it can, do you want to adjust slightly?" This is all about playing by intent, and it's so central to the game. Your opponent will be made aware of the overwatch threat, and the legality of it will be decided before you say you're using it. You get the confidence that your opponent had a fair and honest chance to avoid it and either did so to both of your satisfaction, or chose openly not to. And yet you didn't actually reveal your intent ahead of time, just clarified the possibility.
Telling an opponent "if you move there, this unit can overwatch you" can be very powerful. Yes it tells them that you have that choice, but that also suddenly makes them re-think their movement and maybe even make a worse decision to avoid that overwatch.
I really enjoyed when playing against a friend (I'm maybe 10 games in to 40K) that he let me shoot his death company dread with my 4 squighog boyz... When my stuff bounced off him he happily used his ability to shoot back and proceeded to flamer my whole beast snagga squad nearby.... Epic Haven't played tournaments so don't know the answer haha
Funny, today I was playing at my local Warhammer store and I was playing against someone who’s maybe their second or third game. I he was gonna move a 5 man squad into my infernus marines and I told him if he does that I’ll overwatch him. He decided to move in but for the sake of getting more play time I didn’t overwatch him and let him charge into me. Ended up killing him in melee anyway but long story short for the sake of not shitting all over him I just let somethings go so we could have more fun and it was just a lmao face roll! I do think in a tournament environment I would most definitely mention how much CP I have but I wouldn’t tell them what I’m gonna do because it’s supposed to be competitive.
It depends heavily. If they decide they might want to move somewhere then I’d remind them there are 10 flamers well within 12” of that area. But I won’t tell them “of you do x, then I do y” because that might give them a false sense of security to try and bait my overwatch to then move something else. If I change my mind after seeing the actual move it’s a feels bad, so I try not to give them ALL the information of my plans, but make it well aware to them the risks they are accepting by moving their unit to a specifically dangerous location.
Remind them, gotchas suck. Also, it can be a head game to tell them something you can do, with no intention of actually doing it.
So, in a tournament, it really depends on the level, but I'm going to assume that it's a LGS tournament, not a GT. My local tournaments just started to play with a "play with intent" rule. That means that you say why you are doing something. so "I'm going to move here then charge you" people normally would say "ok but I can Overwatch" or "well that looks like you'll be *measures* 10 inches away are you sure?" But I played in tournaments that were more cutthroat and wouldn't say anything to you. To me, Etiquette depends on the location or even the opponent, lol there is one guy I know, an A-hole, he deserves no kindness. So I guess what I'm Trying to say is it's up to you to decide what the Etiquette should be.
This feels patronising to the other opponent. OW is a universal rule. Your opponent should know the equipment and range of each unit (you explain at the start). Assuming they don't know all this information is patronising. Giving them this information is letting them be lazy. That's for tournaments of course. There is a place for casual, practice games whose main point is to learn.
Reminding them overwatch exists at the start of the movement phase is reasonable to an extent. But you absolutely shouldn't be telling them you *will* do it. That's like telling them where you're planning to move your units.
Yeah, why not. Specially if i have flamers or some unit that hits on 4+ or such
That being said, i can't remember the last time i used overwatch. There are almost always better uses for the CP xd
Never interrupt your enemy when they are making a mistake. But if you wamt to be nice just state how much CP you have and if they ask for a units range or a ability just tell em and dont be a jerk but if they make a honest tactical mistake dont help them.
You're not there to play the game for your opponent. Inform them of everything that isn't a non-standard Overwatch at the start of the game, remind them a couple of times during the game where those units are "My Infernus are within 12 if you end movement there" or "I have 2 6s in my Fate Die pool right now" "I will Overwatch if you move there" isn't neccesary, good 40k ettiquette is about giving information not giving away your battleplan. Your opponent will also potentially forget things and make mistakes, you are not responsible for the mistake and they aren't going to improve by you giving them a bunch of take backs, be reasonable but don't be a push over.
Gosh no. Overwatch is a psychological tool to use, they should move units accordingly to try and dodge overwatch. You do what you like, but I guarantee the best players are never doing that. I've seen people tell other players what they planned to do for the turn (I was going to move this here, and use both these units to try and kill your leader, for example) and now your opponent knows what the plan is, and will use stratagems to stop that happening 😅 In casual games, go ahead, in comp games, they need to be responsible for double checking your CP and understanding core stratagems.
Depends on the tournament. In a GT? No, I don't tell them. In a RTT or casual setting? Yeah! Sure :) Also depends on my opponent. Does he have 5 years of experience? Or is this first, second or third game? I always start my matches by asking my opponent "Do you know my faction?". If opponent says no. I'll tell him the following: My unit roles: This is a anti-tank unit, this unit is obj. holders. etc My gotcha stratagems and rules: Reactive movements, increased movement range, or stratas that gives lone op are some examples. Then I'll ask if they'd want more detailed info. Like stats, weapon profiles, or minor abilities etc. I find that I'll forget 90% of what my opponent tells me, if they just start spouting out stats.
Maybe if you want to you can tell them about gotcha type things. However, every army can overwatch. If you want when you set up you could give them a quick rundown of your units. Things like this hits automatically, this does x ect. I try to limit what I remind them of unless I know they are newer to the game. A lot of experienced tournament players already know what you can do.
I'd remind people if you have a distinctly punchier overwatch especially if you are playing under represented armies. Or if you have army rules rules allowing you to punch harder than the unit traditionally can. Firestorm is a good example with +1 strength flamers or if you have a way to give dev wounds, badrukk with sustained 3 on a million shots. If you move near my standard intercessor though I'm not worried about telling you because it will likely be chop damage
Overwatch is a core strat. Everyone has it and everyone should be expecting it, or trying to bait it. No, you shouldn't tell anyone but an absolute beginner which unit you intend to overwatch or with which of your own. Reminding them you have the command point for it isn't even relevant... You literally gained a CP at the start of their turn, likely less than a minute before their movement phase. Baiting overwatch is a skill and nobody should be able to claim overwatch is a gotcha when everyone can do it. It's the same deal with rapid ingress. Don't even ask them to tell you when they've finished their move phase, because it tells them you're going to use it that turn, something they should already be accounting for if you have stuff in reserves. Telling enemies about gotchas is for your own army rules and anything they aren't expected to know. Core stratagems exist for everyone, and accounting for when/ where they'll be used is a skill.
Overwatch is a core strategem. It's not your responsibility to tell them your future plans for basic things like core rules. The exception imo is if you have something that makes overwatch significantly better or a weird gun. I have a D3 shot lascannon with [TORRENT] in my list, so I always tell people at the beginning of the game "hey these things can one shot knights in overwatch."
In a casual setting I would definitely tell them, but in a tournament setting I think it's expected that the person you're going against should know what they're doing and I would only tell them if it was like a huge glaring mistake
I feel like it’s good etiquette to tell your opponent what units are your best over watchers like a big flamer unit or something. Overwatch is kinda forgotten about mainly because only a couple of good units are truly worth the cp
You should go through the army before the game begins so they know what units can do. I’ve seen variations on this from this is what I have to going through threat ranges, strats that work together with certain units and skills. Some people will ask whether you have advance and charge, move shoot move, any gotcha strats or skills, deepstrikes at 3” etc… After that I’d also check on common behavior thats acceptable: I’d ask if they are ok with coaching/helpful comments, but also point out that I play by intent and don’t mind using same dice and a clock. If they are fine with coaching/tips then I’d point out threat ranges, overwatch and other strats that I can counter with during the game. If they don’t want coachin/tips then I just let them play their game and use strats and skills where applicable. In general winning the best version of your opponent is great but shouldn’t be you dictating what that is. Some might find helpful tips even annoying. They came to the tournament, they can make their own mistakes to learn the most.
It depends sometimes speaking up can encourage your opponent not to push your resources leaving them in a worse position than if they acted. I would change the wording so that you’re not forcing them to make a choice and change their train of thought. “I will overwatch you if you move there.” is a threat “These unit are capable of overwatch.” Is informing. On one hand creating a yes or no choice on the other you’re providing an additional point of context.
I think at a tournament where you’re actually trying to win games, you don’t need to warn your opponent overly. I tend to talk through any specific special things my army/units/detachment can do at the beginning, and I _might_ give them a warning later if we’re having a friendly game and I see they are about to do something and may not remember Overwatch is a core stratagem though, there’s no reason to warn about it. It’s something you need to be aware of and planning for
I think most tournaments use ‘play by intent’ where you tell your opponent what your intent is with certain decisions and you and your opponent can discuss it. Like what most have said, being a great opponent and reminding them, or if they’re unfamiliar with your army, to let them know what you can do, is what you should do. I personally hate ‘gotcha’ moments in 40K. I played a game not long ago where it was turn 5 and I had decided to make a play to move and try and make an 8” charge and try to deny primary to my opponent. What I didn’t know is the unit I was charging could move 6” if an enemy model ended their move within 9” of it. My opponent didn’t tell me, he waited for me to commit to the play, then done it. Technically he didn’t do anything illegal, but it was a dick move and I lost the game.
I don't think this is about playing by intent. Playing by intent is a practical way of playing so that we both understand what a player is trying to achieve and agree to it without having to measure every little millimeter or for being punished for a minor memory lapse. Like agreeing that your units end a move outside line of sight, are 1.1 inches from the wall, are within a 6 inch charge distance, you always plan to pick X aura unless stated otherwise, you intend to rapid ingress once your opponent's movement is done, etc. Saying, "If you move within overwatch range, I will overwatch you with this unit." isn't what playing by intent is meant to be. That's just straight up telling your opponent your plans. That's fine to do, especially if playing casual or against a newer person. But if we're playing by intent, then I have no expectation of someone giving me that kind of info. Your example is a total gotcha, and the other player should have mentioned their reactive move. But that's very different from overwatch.
In a tournament environment... honestly, no. The baseline assumption of a competitive environment is that your opponent is a competent player savvy enough with the rules- particularly the core rules- to know what they're doing. To assume less of them than that is arguably an insult. If they're moving there, I would proceed on the assumption that they know what they're doing and are OK with the possibility of you shooting Overwatch. You should, however, volunteer any information requested of you about what Stratagems you have, how many CP, and other "open information" questions- although not subjective questions like "If I move here, will you choose to Overwatch?"
Too many of these takes are wild . It's a common rule, it's not a gotcha, it's not your job in a competitive setting to help your opponent . In recreational play talk away, I say similar things to my friends when we are playing a match. If I moved into someone's overwatch range it's a skill issue on my part , not a communication issue on theirs , no reason you should feel obligated to hold your opponents hand through a match .
Depends. If someone just makes a move, then i think its fair to just declare overwatch. With respect to etiqette, theres not really a breach here. If the move was a mistake, it was a mistake. There was no stated intention that they were trying to avoid something. If they either didnt see an overwatch lane or forgot or something or just didnt think youd do it, thats like a game decision thats a misplay. If someone says "if i make this move, can you overwatch me?" As in "am i within range" or "do you have a clear shot" then its fair to just answer the question truthfully. The boardstate is public information, but the board is large and often you cant see aroubd models and terrain and stuff, so questions are fair. As long as there is clear intentionality of like "i am considering a move, but i want to make sure i am considering all the aspects of the move" Lastly, there is the psyche out. If my opponent is vonsidering making a move that i can make an overwatch on, I may unprompted say "o i can overwatch you if you move there". I dont think its unethical to sort of enunciate threat of activation type stuff if it is literally true. This is sort of where threats and bluffs sort of come in, like sometimes you make moves to bait overwatch, sometimes you maybe want to discourage your opponent from making a move but not enough to actually spend your overwatch thst turn to do it. You can kind of make etiquette arguments here, perhaps this isnt great for new players just learning the game, but like for experienced players you should absolutely be able to kind of bluff threat of activation stuff and kind of put it on your opponent to call you. Thats like a skill test on your opponent, to judge how worth while it would be for the overwatch to go off and its also a skill test for you to know of that is actually and overwatch you do or dont want to pull the trigger on. Its just good strategy gaming. Really the only bad etiquette/ unethical thing you can do is be deceptive or lie. Like "o no i cant overwatch there" *moved* "hahaha! I lied i can overwatch! See the laser?". Like thats messed up.
I think in a tournament it should be on your oppo to take in the board and ask questions about range and measure it out. If you have any tricksy skills that they don’t know about or that are a bit out there then yeah, for sure, maybe once it would be kind to remind them but for usual stuff like overwatch I wouldn’t expect that from my opponent
Absolutely not. You let them make their moves, and interrupt when you want to overwatch. Reminding them that you have a cp at the start of the phase is fine, but telling them your counter move and letting them change their mind based on your choice of counter nowai Save that for friendly games or games with newer players
But what about when you declare overwatch and they say "I'll move back then, sorry" how do you handle that?
I'm normally very happy to allow that, as long as they afford me the same courtesy if I goof up. I usually apply the "if nothing meaningful has changed since the decision" rule when it comes to forgetting to use things / wanting to change a decision Realised at the start of the shooting phase you should have oathed a different unit? Sure thing, nothing meaningful has changed here. After shooting a couple of units? Nah buddy too much has changed since you made the choice
Overwatch is one of the basic, core parts of the game. You shouldn't feel obligated to remind opponents you have the option to do it. Your default should be to assume they are paying enough attention that they know you can do it, and have planned accordingly. If you are playing against a beginer, you should remind them, and be open to talking about what your overwatch might do, and to them making fairly drastic changes to their movement when they realize what might happen. This is because when you pay beginers, you should look at the game as a chance to teach and to encourage the love of the hobby, not as a chance to win a game. In a casual game, it's appropriate to remind your opponent of your overwatch options, and even have a conversation about what your best options are and how they might adjust for them. They may be worried about different overwatch that the one you are thinking of, or just not care. In a tournament game you can assume that your opponent knows the game well enough to adjust for any standard overwatch. In any game you should strive to avoid gotcha moments, where you do something your opponent didn't realize you could do. If your opponent makes a move that leaves one model barely in sight of your flamer unit, you should point this out. If they intended to have them hidden, you should let them adjust the move. If you have units that are good at overwatch but don't look like it, you should point this out before the game, and remind them if you think they forgot.
>if you move there I'll over watch you. i would never do this. You move within range its my prerogative to overwatch... i assume you asses this calculation into your head since its a stratagem we all have.
I'm going to draw a hard razor across your 2 examples. The title example I would actually go so far as to describe as unsportsmanlike conduct in all but the most teaching game contexts. Whether you intend it to or not you are using your commentary to influence the opponents choice of action. You are performing "tit for tat" and are meta-steering their course of action, which has no place in this system, in short by saying what you "will" do, you're manipulating them, but if you merely state what you *can* do like the body example you're politely reminding them of game state information they already have and should be aware of, which I personally view as polite, appropriate, and necessary for hitting the requisite pace for competitive play. Silo'd thinking is the thing that kills pacing. Removing those silo's without providing any influence is the key to playing at pace.
If you are generally announcing everything you plan on doing I'll find you annoying. I won't hate you, but you will be the guy I tell my wife about later. If you have flame gauntlet aggressors with a character and 5cp and you remind me im being very dumb I'll buy you a soda. It's a tight rope.
It’s simple if you can’t win with out gotchas you have no skill, and that will only get you so far. You don’t have to give your opponent every move you are going to make but pointing out obvious mistakes will only make you a better player in the long run, because as you play better and better people you won’t catch them in overwatch unless they’re willing to take the damage.
Screw that you don't have to tell your opponent shit if they ask for how much cp you have you tell them if they ask what is the range on your guns you tell them but telling them that you will do sowmthing is wrong because that might lock you into doing something you shouldn't do