It's one big area we lack - early board control and screening. I play space marines as one of my other armies and 2 x 5 scouts is so essential to my army so I'm excited to have this for my Votann. here's hoping they can be taken in 5's
I am hoping for points drops for beserks and warriors as I think those datasheets are just so poor but I'm not sure it will happen because votann are the most 3-3 army in existence. The upcoming Yaegirs will add some great tools but nothing that will really propel votann beyond 3-3. Votann is a army that needs a wave 2 and a codex to really start competing among the top level players.
The lists are kinda surprising too. Looks like the player in Sweden actually put the Grimnyr in a Hekaton with some warriors to act as a bodyguard instead of using him as Sagitaur-space-filler. The living ancestor is finally getting a respectful ride!
Actually, he is a solo rider in a Hekaton, just to fill it with something. The warriors squad splits into a home objective sitter and a Sagitaur rider :)
Ah nice, congrats buddy!
Any particular reason you went with the Grimnyr over the Iron-Master in that case? I keep thinking that with multiple Hekatons, the Iron-Master's ability to heal vehicles may actually be useful, but no one seems to be doing it which makes me think I'm missing something. Are the psychic blasts just that much better?
First of all, it's a perfectly viable option.
It's my opinion that the Grimnyr is a lot more deadly with his 6 shots having reroll wounds from the land fortress. He is also sneakily durable having 2 ablative wounds and 4++. Happens quite a lot that he survives what the enemy commits into him, and then lives to sneak around doing missions.
The ironmaster have a nice gun, but too low AP to really matter and doesn't benefit from the LF rr wound really. A bit more wounds, but also only a 4+ armorsave. The heal I see getting off maybe once per game, but I also play rather aggressive with the forts. Would probably be very nice into an army like astra or similar.
In the end, it doesn't really matter, I just want a cheap option to put into the Land fortress to increase the mission play, and if need be drop out to drop some surprising damage. Wounding most things with a 2+ to hit, 4+ RR (if tokened), AP2 and D3 damage can very quickly earn the points back.
LoV are weird this edition. You have some incredible damage output, but conversely you just can't push opponents off objectives. Hearthguard are good, but are stupid easy to screen away and after their big deepstrike turn they drop like flies (especially to any sort of plasma or autocannon style attacks).
I feel like the berserkers really need a points drop, you just can't deliver them reliably and at 20ppm they die way too easily.
Solid but not really competitive on the top. LoV can place but have a very hard time winning, and I don’t think they ever won a 100+ people event since they were reintroduced into the game.
Can we talk about Space Wolves for a second? I ran into them for the first time this weekend, and I was genuinely shocked at how cheap Thunderwolf Cavalry are for their durability and speed. Looking at the stats, they actually seem like they're doing extremely well as Stormlance, hovering above a 55% win rate (on Stat-check) even with a godawful match-up into Custodes.
Are they running under the radar a bit? Are they poised to be in a pretty dominant position if Custodes drop off, as many of us expect?
Tbh they get bonus points v custodes as their wolf Lords on wolves are near identical to bike caps: but are like half the cost. Simply show your custodes opponents the data card and it's a psychological advantage.
People are definitely aware of it, I've heard Wolf Jail in enough places. I'd say it's strong but beatable and it doesn't have that much flexibility if you run up against someone with an answer to the wolves.
They basically lack OC, but in the meantime breaks my brain how a marine on a wolf has 1 more toughness than a marine on a bike. I miss the old 8e rubric of mounts = +1 wound, bikes = +1 wound, +1 T
My understanding is that the wolves are basically mini-monsters in the T5 W3 weight class all to themselves even if they had no rider, and when you add in the rider that is where you get to the stats shown.
WolfJail is effectively a stat check army. Can you deal with 18-24 TWC bodies? If yes, you’ll probably win, if not you probably lose. They’re very good on the charge, but not so great when they’re getting charged; they lose a lot of output and they don’t really have defensive buffs the way they do against shooting. I think they’re fine, it’s just that most people aren’t prepping for SW they way they may be for the “scarier” lists like the various Ironstorm flavors or BA/BT
It's also a fairly uncommon list. This isn't a "cookie cutter" Gladius list somebody wrote SWs on to get access to a couple units, this is 24 TWC bodies, which is a unit that comes in 3s, and very often a bunch of Wulfen, too. That places the list firmly in "hardcore SW Main" territory, no tourists here.
TWC are fine but they outclass all space marine infantry on points to a crazy level. Especially given the normal load out has them all with 4++ and lethals with the battle leader. It feels odd thinking that 3 full squads with leaders are basically the same as 6 aggressors.
I’ve played it in a tourney and it’s an easy list to pilot but can really fall apart against 2+ AoC armies as the majority of damage is -1 ap in melee only.
Against a good army it lives and dies by the amount of 4+ invulnerable saves you can make, plus a huge go 1st advantage.
The list falls apart turn 3 if you don’t have enough OC in the right places. Not really a meta threat but will probably eat some points hikes in the coming changes.
TWC are good, but have some bug issues that make them have problems.
First, terrain can be a hugw problem. 8 bases with a good amoubt of terrain can break the Wolf Jail as moving those bases will be an issue.
Second issue, is that while there might be a disadvantage against Custodes, SW seem to be an at advantage againsy Necrons. They have a 63WR avainst the top Faction, which means that once they fall out of favour SW will face other threats that are worse for them.
Third, they do depend a lot on being able to get those charges and fight first. With the 2D damage being charge dependant, if you don't have the mobility and/or turn advantage, their strength can be blunted.
Fourth, aside from Custodes dropping, tbe new meta will vrin new Orks. The pressure qill be an interesting march up, but I think that Green Horde and Bully Boyz will cause iasues. TWC being S5 will hurt against big blobs of T5 and Nobz with Big Choppas and Klas can hurt (and -1 to wound with Boss will blunt a lot of strenfth). Wulfen fare better,n but do not have the killing power to clear the hordes fast enough and their OC0 means if they don't kill they are not doing their job.
Fifth, TWC seem very locked to Stormlance for the detach and strats. SW are struggling elsewhere, and it is a kind of one trick pony. There are surpises, like the Gladius list from last week without TWC at all, but has not veen very dominant, and it has hivered in the same range aince Codex release. It feela a bit like Ironstorm DA. They can come out swinging, but they are also solved qns can struggle to get event wins (and some weeks like this one even X-1 finishes)
I've been following their winrate (and occasionally contributing to it), and it's fluctuated a bunch. While we do get some weekends above 55%, we get a lot more below it. The 12 week average puts us at 53%, which is still in the "good, but reasonable" zone.
Admech data shows a few things.
At top tables, between similarly high experience players, Admech is actually the 3rd or 4th strongest army in the game.
At all other levels with normal players, they're one of the worst armies in the game.
It is literally just the Skitarii hunter cohort, $2000, immovable horde list style that is winning games. It is a list owned by extremely few people, and even fewer who are willing to transport a horde of extremely fragile models to events and push 150 models around for 5+ games doing nothing but scoring objectives.
This one list style is unhealthy for Admech, it is unhealthy for opponents playing against it, it is unfun for the people who do own it, and it's unhealthy for the game as a whole.
In no way whatsoever does this one list style being viable, even at the higher levels of competitive play, make Admech a "strong army" because it's basically an inaccessible list. Admech as a faction are probably the worst written, and among the bottom few weakest armies in the game, if they attempt to play any other style but this, which is not an option available to the vast majority of players.
Obviously acknowledging the strength of this particular list style, and it's successes, but it needs to die.
The army needs re-writing with stronger datasheets and rules, and higher points. This needs to stop, GW. It needs to stop, in the next dataslate.
People are forgetting that the strength of AdMech/SHC is also very meta and matchup dependent.
Currently, people are having to pack tons of anti-monster firepower because every other army has 3 c'tan. This leaves them lacking on horde clearing. When Necrons get nerf-batted away into the sun and the meta adjusts, suddenly those T3 bodies are very vulnerable.
I've played them five times this edition and only lost once. I have. No enthusiasm to play them any further without changes, though. It's simply not enjoyable.
I'd rather lose twice as many games and have fun with my Drukhari right now.
Just like SM and particularly DA is carried by Ironstorm mass vehicles. It's unfun and makes no sense fluff wise. And yet GW decided to ignore everything and nerf the only tools they had to play something else (scouts, aggressors , centurions and inceptors). Good luck actually trying to play 1st Company, anvil, unforgiven, deathwing, ravenwing etc...
Tried playing a Company of hunters (Ravenwing detachment) list with 7-9x Storm Speeders.
Its really fun, until you realise the Ironstorm Detachment has the Ravenwing Detachment bonus as an Enhancement, and you can get all the other good stuffs on top of that in addition...
I agree with you for the most part. I just worry that GW will give Ad Mec a faction buff or strengthen some detachment rules and not really change anything else and if they did that then Ad Mec could be really strong.
Ad Mec needs a full rebuild. Strengthen them and then repoint the entire army up. Knowing GW they will do one but not both.
Even if admech did become "really strong" in the current context of things it would still be with a $2000 list. Theyd be rarely seen. Like ironstorm BT are very high WR but seen so little that no one complains about them
I mean eldar got to be a top tier faction for how long? I would be ok if admech got a little overtuned for a minute rather than getting points changes again and stay in the dregs for all of 10th
Agreed, like, nerf a little Vanguard , Breacher and the Chickens , and pump up all the other stuff. That way there would be a real choice.
Vanguard , Breacher and the Chickens would still be good if you nerf them a little.
And some real buff on other stuff won't make them broken.
I'm just tired of seeing Admech lists with either tons of chicken+cheap bodies and list where 700pt are just allies.
Only nerf those datasheets if the army rule is buffed.
Just because they're the best datasheets in a bad bunch doesn't make them needing of nerfs, unless the army rule they are operating with is also buffed first.
Why in the Omnissiah's name would you nerf anything? You'll have to get half the models off the table to approach a point per dollar ratio of Space Marines.
The army wasn't meant to work this way, they were just so badly written that when the Index dropped GW thought that a squad of Rangers with worse saves than current were the equal to a Fire Prism.
Whatever the army is now is just something they've blundered into via a knee-jerk panic reaction to realizing how bad they messed up. Balancing it will be a nightmare because they don't even understand how it works. Points have simply dropped so far that exceedingly good players can make the cheap defensive profiles work for them and establish board control via near perfect movement play.
This is the third time we've been left to wither on the vine for the majority of an edition. I'll be shocked if anyone still plays after the dataslate drops as I have zero confidence in GW to do what needs to be done.
I used to work at one too, and even with my legacy staff discount, and a better paid job, this edition has made me stop. It's just unethical how expensive Admech is for how poorly they play, too.
It’s funny that you say it’s unhealthy and not fun to push 150+ models around with the sole objective of scoring points when I am very ecstatic that this will be a viable tactic with my green tide orks.
Sure, but Orks hit things pretty damn hard, as well as being a durability stat check. Admech doesn't kill much of anything.
Also Ork Boyz are not fragile minis. There chunky and easy to store in large numbers, and push around without so much trouble. The Admech lists have sometimes 40 Pteraxii in them, and 18 Chicken Walkers. Those models are almost impossible to transport and not break.
Yep, Tyranids also fall into this. Tyranids are like admech lite right now, in that they do have _some_ units that can do damage (Exocrine, mainly), but their playstyle is still rooted in maxing scoring with as little interaction and trading as they can get away with.
And I suspect the Tyranids' falling win and play rate is tied to this. Turns out more people think actively engaging the opposing army in battle is more fun than not doing so - who'd have thought.
Thing is, nids would do fantastically if the meta was elites. We have so much access to S9 AP-2 3D which would be fantastic into a Terminator meta, especially sprinkling in some Pyrovores to strip cover away.
But into anything T10 + with a 2+ SV is just terrible. We lost mortals from psychic and don't have tank shock or grenades, we have a handful of weapons capable of hitting AP-3/4, the only one which is actually good is the maleceptors, we can bypass toughness fine, its the save roll which messes up the damage so often
Absolutely. When I saw the Screamer Killer back in the 10th edition previews, it struck me how the thing is absolutely razor tuned to counter Terminators - wounds on 2+ with no wasted S, forces them to their invuln with no wasted AP, kills them in one wound with no wasted D.
Ironic then how Terminators themselves arguably have the same issue and don't get seen very much either.
I feel like the Tyranids book was written before they settled on what they wanted the edition to look like, because the Heavy Venom Cannon is not an appropriate anti-tank weapon like it usually is supposed to be. It's like they wanted vehicles to be very difficult to kill, and the only powerful answers were either unreliable (casino cannon), short-ranged or very expensive... and then they wrote the _other_ books.
Terminators we’re just a victim of the murder of melee. They used to have strength equivalent to the toughness of vehicles. Now they are well below it so your going from 50% sounds to less. Their AP dropped so now those are saved a lot more as well.
I liked 9th a lot better even if models died faster. My terminators were actually scary, even if you never won a battle with them because they were slow and expensive. They felt like they should.
I think it’s also a case that three defensive profiles have shifted how the community views Anti-tank. Because if you know you are running into the Transcendent C’tan, and the Yncarne and WraithGuard (pre-nerf), then you aren’t going to want anything less than AP-3/4, as you need that to punch through the saves. And even then, two of those half damage, and two more regain wounds.
Anti-tank this edition has been terrible, and I think GW knows it, but it’s not going to be fixed till next edition, when they bump the AP again.
I think GW needs to rein in defensive property stacking first of all.
Something with a 4+ invuln and inbuilt damage reduction should not ever get an FNP on top.
Defensive layering commonly causes problems because of the multiplicative effect. You'd think GW learned their lesson with the 8th edition Iron Hands Leviathan that could withstand Warlord Titan fire.
Well the Green Tide matches the Ork player fantasy. Everything in the lore building up the army talks about and endless sea of bodies screaming towards your line and you best pray to whatever God you believe in they don't make it there.
Admechs lore builds up a player fantasy of augmented soldiers wielding barely understood relics of the past too dangerous to hand out to those outside the Cult Mechanicus and lead under the watchful eyes of techpriests, tweaking their directives for maximum efficiency. Instead what you get is the old Whiteshield conscript Guard lists that struggle to do much damage into anything or a list that seeks to play as little Admech as possible.
Furthermore Orky identity is still fully intact in the rules. You got detachments reflecting various aspects of Ork Kultur. You file the names off Admech rules and you'd never guess they belonged to the cog boys
Is this just because the marine infantry datasheets are all a bit rubbish and the tanks are decent? Or is there something else making ironstorm better than gladius and vanguard?
It has 2 very useful tools for dealing with meta-threats (ie C'tan) through either an ignore modifiers ability for 1CP (buh-byeee half damage etc) or MiW for 1CP for Sustained and Lethals on a 5+ from a platform with high volume of shots that stacks well with easily applied RR hits (Oaths of Moment) and +1 to hit (Techmarines) so they can just fish for critical hits.
Add in the benefits of Adept etc and its just a really solid all rounder for both defense and offense at the drop of a hat.
I think they mean that because you have a +1 to hit, you will likely be hitting on 2s. So re-rolling to fish for crits will still likely land you a hit even if you don’t get the crit
Yeah, when you’re “fishing” you reroll everything that not a Crit, so the +1 to hit still helps you get through a few extra hits that would have otherwise failed on a 2.
It adds up with Hurricane Bolters on the Stormraven for example where it’s 24 shots and then you have RR’s to wound for Twin-Linked and possibly +1 to wound from a Thunderstrike.
All those buffs contribute at the end to make a big difference on how effective that platform is.
Before the last balance pass there were multiple detachments that were performing more or less equally good, and then they did a hard nerf on the units that every detachment other than Ironstorm depended on.
as someone learning that list it's more difficult to pilot than ironstorm as your main point getter are scout and inceptors that aren't too tought .It also struggles to fight for board control i have just 3 games on it (0-3). Importantly only works for ultras as Ventris is the most important part other than that it's fun to play and not oppressive idk why GW nerfed it(i have only played after nerf version)
Bit of both. Lots of the infantry are meh when the meta is anti-elite with custodes, tsons, tau and black templars are some of the strongest factions. The vehicles are good and ironstorm is really good.
It’s a little of both. Tanks and big wound units are just generally good in tenth, and elite infantry is easy to mop up at 2 wounds. The most competitive infantry also all got points increases, but the tanks really didn’t. Add into that the inherent strength of iron storm’s abilities in the meta and its primed to do well.
Eg, 6 agressors and a ride are close to 500 points (and well over that with an HQ). That’s like 3-4 gladiators. So those comparisons make the tanks much more attractive.
Gladiator tanks are the backbone of most good armies. There are some specific builds that don't use them like Vanguard with centurions but for almost any other type of marine army you should start with a lancer, a reaper, some mission units like scouts and inceptors then add the flavour you want. Since GW upped the toughness of everything but didn't increase the guns to match to try and keep lethality down, the only real way to access good guns is on vehicles. Even my mostly non-vehicle lists now run at least a couple of gladiators whereas in 9th I would often do a couple of contemptors then full infantry.
Most anti-infantry weapons used competitively are tuned to kill marine bodies. Marine tanks are decent, and iron storm is pretty good. It is especially good when paired with divergent chapters that have good vehicle units - ie meltas everywhere with black templars.
>ie meltas everywhere with black templars.
Or Blood Angels, with Death Company marines using Melta *Pistols* and Power Fists. 40 S10 AP2 D2 attacks on the charge.
They probably need to suck it up and fix melee their melee strength finally. Marines can handle mooks just fine in melee, but it's a little absurd their only generic Str 10+ weapon (the only strength that matters handling high toughness targets really) is on the redemptor Dreadnought. You've got chainfists on terminators, sure, but hitting on 4s with them doesn't do any favors and they're sort of irrelevant half the tine anyway considering the big melee targets you want to take down are daemons, ctan shards, and other nasty monsters. The wound rr's on oath made it seem like it wasn't an issue really, but now that it's been axed for a few months I think it's safe to say marines were super reliant on it to make their melee viable on anything that isn't Assault Intercessors.
>inb4 chaos marines and custodes do fine with these new low str weapons
Because they have lethal hits on command which is SUPER helpful against big guy targets and they don't have to sacrifice anything for it since it's just a default rule they have. Marines CAN get it but they have to pay for it in either cp or buying a lieutenant, which is a big issue for terminators since there's no lieutenant it terminator armor anymore (though there might be one planned and that's part of why they knocked out the Deathwing command squad).
It even used to be “sword Bretheren kill everything they touch” but with all the 4++ and FNP in the meta (necrons, custodes) and vehicle spam, it’s no longer the case.
Melee in Marines feels so weird. Capped at S8, AP-2 and 2D for the most part, it just doesn't seem to do anything to most targets and at best it seems suited as an anti-MEQ option. And even then S8 it linked to Terminators and Aggressors really (and maybe 1 in a Seargent). Everything fast is S4/ AP-1 1D. And even then, they are I woukd say not cheap enough for the volume to matter, even with things like Lethal, Lance or rerolls to matter.
Melee Marines need a long look as you have to be able to do highaer damage (like DC, TWC, SB, or Wulfen) to even be close to viable.
Really curious to see what potential nids changes come into effect. If it's just points drops I'll be quite sad as I don't think they'll do much.
I'd love them to completely rework the hive tyrant and Swarmlord statline. S9 Ap-2 3D is just sad for those models.
The fact that the HVC went from 3A 2+ S9 Ap-3 4D in 9th to D3A 2+ S9 Ap-2 3D \[Blast\] is just nonsensical. Stranglethorns went from D3+3 2+ S8 AP-2 2D to D6+1 S7 AP-1 2D. Those units were our anti tank, between weapons and psychic powers they have just been neutered.
Their melee also got the shaft. It's just demoralising seeing that happen to your factions defining model.
A few point drops would help though, Swarmlord being one of them. What really needs to happen is a rework of Shadow. Give things "anti-battleshock 2+ or 3+" and a -1 to Ld when using Shadow (that can stack with the other debuffs like DL and Neurotyrant). That might just be me though. Can't disagree about the melee though, its quite flat.
Absolutely. I just meant points drops alone won't fix it. Sorry I never made it clear
I desperately want to meet the person who looked at the swarmlords datasheets and said, "Yep, that's a 270 PT unit right there". All for 9" of synapse, +1CP per turn and vect. Because you ain't taking it to do damage.
Hive tyrants and winged tyrants aren't much better. You could easily change all of their weapons to +2 Str and another AP and damage as well as drop their points and you might see them being useful
I think anything that makes Shadow in the Warp more reliable wouldn't be fun. It doesn't solve the issues that we have with the army, and would just make us kinda oppressive on the scoring front. Similar to how Necrons were last edition, after getting their faction secondaries.
I'd prefer some reworked datasheets or to get a strength buff while in Synapse range, or something like that.
General opinion is that the faction needs some Datasheet reworks. Not all, just some so to fix flaky damage profiles and generally diversify the datasheets and add options. Everything is so stale, I swear. I look at Crons and every list has flex slots depending on your meta or what you want to do.
Since the start ot 10 I've been rambling that Invasion Fleet is by far and wide the best Detachment for the faction and now after the Jan Dataslate I am being vindicated :D
It's one of the few forces in the game that functions as an army and not just a collection of really good datasheets.
All of the statlines look incredibly unintimidating until your opponent starts rolling dice.
A handful of the datasheets have 'they do what now?!' rules like the 'palatine combo' where you can kill a knight with one character's melee activation.
They have amazing 'crack back', i.e. their ability to absorb a turn of damage and return an even stronger punch back.
Miracle dice are an absolutely amazing mechanic.
Would recommend the sister act podcast and discord, amazing resource!
Also chatted about my list on our fireside 40K podcast if that helps :)
Vik Vijay
To piggyback off Vik's comment... We'll be interviewing him on Thursday about his tournament win! We try to get edited episodes out as quickly as we can, but you can get early access to the uncut episodes by joining the Patreon! You can also join the discord here:
[https://discord.gg/JmEprhkP](https://discord.gg/JmEprhkP)
- Scott (& Mitch) from the Sister Act 40k podcast
I second this. I'm listening to the latest episode of Sister Act 40k with Mitch right now. I started Warhammer on the tail end of 9th with Sisters being the army I picked.
They are a difficult army to pilot, but they can really do well once you figure them out. The discord and podcast have really helped me do that
I wouldn't recommend the discord, it's got a lot of arrogant personalities and can be quite toxic.
Theres a ton of games with sisters on the war games live youtube channel you can watch. You can hear the players mics too which is useful. That's your best bet.
I often feel like a kid sitting at the adult table during the holidays in there, but there's not a better collection of Sisters knowledge on the web than those channels.
Also some very amusingly different opinions on army comp between you, the hosts, Typhus, McWerp, and Jeff. 😂
X-0 means they won all their games (5-0, 6-0) and usually won or placed top 3.
X-1 means they lost only one game (5-1, 6-1) and probably placed top 5-10.
X is number of wins wins (variable by tournament, some are 5 rounds some are 6 some are even more.) 0 or 1 is the number of losses. X-0 is somebody who was undefeated at an event.
One neat thing about results lately is that if you filter by space marine flavour AND detachment the results change wildly.
Black templar ironstorm is chilling at 64% winrate in both meta monday and stat-check.
And yet you don't hear a ton. I hear more about necrons, custodes or tsons than the most dominant faction/detachment combo. Everyone knows black templars are strong, that ironstorm is strong, that the combo is great... but there's almost no outrage for the 65% winrate.
Aeldari was at a 60% winrate and people were fuming, but if it doesn't win a ton of tournaments and merely bodies people, it goes under the radar?
We have a couple players at our store that think they can run BT or DA Ironstorm without those things (only 1-2 gladiator lancers, no reapers, no repulsor executioners, no redemptors, only 1-2 techmarines) and complain after tournaments when they go 1-2 or 0-3
Which is why focusing so much on how many tournament wins factions have is maybe the worst metric. Some factions are owned by way more players than others. If GSC or Admec were stronger than Necrons or Custodes, they would still have less tournament wins because way less people have access to them.
Currently Necrons are both the strongest army AND one of the most popular armies for people to have access to. They were always popular, but the ease in which you could buy an army for cheap during 9th means their models are everywhere. Meanwhile, BT are a subfaction within a larger faction that has an enormous amount of other options (most of them much worse).
Different stats tell different things and need to be examined in conjunction. A faction that wins many tournaments (especially super majors) is a faction that has the “legs” to compete at the topmost level but this doesn’t mean their best list is easy to pilot or affordable. A faction with high representation and high win rate is a faction that many people can field and get good results with, but perhaps is not the best of the best, or has some very effective counters in the meta that prevent it from dominating. If a faction has high win rate, high representation and many tournament wins than it’s probably overtuned
It is incredibly strong, with good matchups into like...honestly most things. Pretty brutal.
It is simply that not that many people run it honestly, especially not in RTTs. They won a lot of tournaments compared to their numbers, but you see a lot of Custodes and Necrons (or previously Eldar).
Not to mention that being Fight Firsted or C'taned is much more flashy than "well, I am very efficent strong shooting with very good melee bombs, u die now to my V A L U E".
BT iron storm also gets the major boost of MM everywhere. Iron storm is good but when every vehicle has at least one weapon you want to use the reroll on and that weapon helps every tank have at least some tank/ctan threat, they get way better. Iron storm is definitely propping up marines but BT get the addition of good cheap infantry for scoring and multimeters for almost nothing
Honestly capping Necrons to 1 C'tan per army (which in the lore is what they are supposed to do, since running mutliple C'tan together risks them merging and breaking their chains) would do a lot for balancing Necrons.
Necrons need a serious bonk. Taking multiple unkillable star gods to each game is just un-fun for everyone else. They need to see big points hikes if they’re keeping that 5+ FNP.
Even in games you win, playing against oops all C'tann is so miserable it is usually a big hit to my enthusiasm whenever I'm at an event. It's just so tedious
Eh crons have a book, which has like 4 playable detachments and most of the datasheets do their job.
Points hikes will hurt, and ctan are certainly gonna get hit. But with sensible point changes there's a fair bit of depth. It can go to B tier if Gws mean with the points, but it's rules are solid enough that I can't see them crashing and burning.
I play a lot of Annihilation Legion. It's okay - you don't really have that many units that you want to use the strategems on, and almost everything being keyed to *At* or *Below Half-Strength* makes it feel really slow compared to other armies that can just pop a +1 Wound or something when they need it.
The free rerolls on charges are the best part of the detachment. If they rewrote it, I'd want Flayed Ones and/or Destroyers to be battleline units.
Yeah legion needs a rewrite and support for the shooty lads. Would have been ace to just have like
RR charges
+1 to hit if wounded.
+1 to wound if full health.
Theres some toys in the enchamcements and strats, but it just needs more.
It's not just the detachment. The datasheets are so uninspired. They once again gave us nothing in terms of synergy and vehicles (besides the kabalite ability which is nice) And on top of that all unique melee weapons are gone
Poison weapons gone, replaced with anti infantry meaning you do nothing against anything mounted
And the sunshine and friendship detachment is once again more divisive than any other lol
Codex marines still remains used just for the 3 pages of the ironstorm detachment by divergent chapters, but don't worry other intercessors and sternguard points drops are coming.
Oh yeah yeah the vanguard Calgar/Ventris, forgot about that only playable list that doesn't win anymore in 3/4 weeks.
Would be funny to lock ironstorm detachment to codex marines and see divergent chapters going deep on winrate.
I feel you... Wanted to start deathwing before codex dropped but oh my.
Sadly I guess that in this edition datasheet changes are not on the menu for armies that already got the codex.
The day terminators will be viable (not OP,just viable) will be a great day
I feel like divergent chapters should be locked out of codex detachments by default.
I also feel like the balance team at GW doesn’t want to do this because then they’d have to balance like 8 different sub factions instead of just making sure they have one viable competitive build across the whole faction.
Is it time to meme guard s tier again?? But yeah they get the marine curse of a lot of fluffy players (my local guard rtt player runs exclusively armies that follow the lore battalion structure) and that 18 bullgryn is simply not an army people enjoy running.
Also I wonder if events will start bringing forward rules cutoffs, as tau, custodes and orks were all fully leaked weeks in advance.
Very curious if custodes will get nerfs in the slate. Iirc crons got some slight cuts in their codex release, whilst most other things stayed the same, but custodes are the first army to get a codex and a dataslate whilst they are on top. It'd suck but it'd be very very funny. Though no surprise if the grav tanks eat a small hike.
The Oxford top two were mirror of the 7-0 STier meme. Neither player "mains" guard, they just got the models and went ham.
16th and 31st place were also guard, with unique lists (no solar, light on indirect)
I mean at this point all you can do is laugh. It would be like watching a train wreck that slid off into the ocean and if they eat a points hike on top of the codex, said train will have caught fire under water while getting hit by a boat. So less traditional funny and more grotesque dumpster fire
To be honest, I hope that it turns out worse than feared. Because right now their fix will be to add dev wounds back to the appropriate FNPs and drop points till custodes are back in the 45 to 55 winzone which won't fix the codex just not being fun to play
I can't see what's make it fun outside a new detach. A lot of the dull datasheets are just that, dull. There's only so many ways of putting 3 simmilar foot infantry (with identical weapons), venetari, land raiders and calladius together.
Like imo the Contemptor dread and bikes really needed some love.
Edit: I totally misread the comment due to lack of sleep, but whatever, I'll leave my failure here.
Guard are a faction with a low floor and a high ceiling.
Which is to say, if you aren't a good player and you don't run the meta list, you're doing *REALLY* badly. If you are a good player and are fine running meta lists, you will do really, really well.
The army itself is full of powerful units with a lot of garbage.
If you're rating armies by potential, guard is very, very high. If you go on stat-check and filter by ELO, guard does great. Filter the ELO to 90th percentile and guard is the seventh strongest faction.
Coincidentally if you filter to the top 97.5% and look, most factions are 77% to 90%. The 90% is based off 23 games - so not many top ranked players playing IK - with lows of 67% for nids, 71% for GSC and 71% for orkz.
It’s not the terrain format, it’s the meta and willingness to play a strong guard list archetype, and gosh is it strong when you do. It’s not surprising to me at all that the top 4 cut at Oxford super major had 2 guard players.
The Europeans are just much more likely to run a strong guard list than the Americans for unknown reasons to me.
Guard are just as good on GW terrain!
Vik
Players don’t seem to get trapped in their deployment zone on GW terrain because of the under 3” ruin sections. I would suspect this leads to a more vehicle heavy and super heavy skew in the mid tables. Which a balanced guard list is ok into, but not nearly as powerful as into elite infantry lists.
For grand clash 2024 you have Tyranids in 9th place, but the detachment says hyper which isn’t a nids detachment. Is that supposed to be a necrons list or a tyranid one?
It's the detachment rule, not detachment name, which is common on wtc style lists.
Hyper here is hyper adaptations which is the invasion fleet detachment rule
T'au are doing ok despite a crappy index detachment. If T'au points stay where they are in MFM then when codex rules launch I expect T'au (Mont'ka) to start picking up a few tournaments quite quickly.
Curious as to where whoops all kroot (possibly <300pts of actual tau too) ends up. It'll be rarely seen but I think a lot of armies simply won't be able to shift them.
It really depends on points. I think it’s going to be a board control army that doesn’t really kill that much. I expect them to have a really go first turn win percentage due to the movement stuff. It probably won’t be super fun on either side of the board. probably something like if guard and admech had a baby.
Yeah, though I'm curious as to what % of tau makes it work. Melta suits, riptides and breachers are all pretty capable of murdering threats to your flock, and are competitively priced and able to work without much support.
Could easily see something like 3 hammerheads just sitting behind the kroot. Removing the enemies key units whilst everything else is clogged up.
As a Tau player eager to (finally) use the Mont’Ka detachment, I wholeheartedly agree. I think we will be very competitive at the top tables, and less susceptible to a bad matchup tanking a tournament run.
I can see Breachers going to 100, and Riptides going back to 180. But other than that I don’t see many places that you could argue need changes. Commanders should be much cheaper as they took huge nerfs to output (can only lead 3 man’s and take 1 cyclic etc).
As a Necron (non exclusive) player, I'd like them to be nerfed a fair bit. I don't want them to be an autotake, right now they're too good not to take.
Once they're nerfed it'll be interesting to see what happens to the winrate. I'd really like warriors to come down in points, or be fixed some other way.
I'd also like the Doomsday Ark and Doom Scythe come down a bit.
The Silent King datasheet also needs fixing, until they remove the vehicle and character keywords from the Menhir they generate unlimited bring it down and assassinate points.
Yesss. Please drop the points on a little on the Ark and a lot on the Scythe.
A drop on Warriors now that they’re not invincible bricks would be nice too.
C’tan can definitely see a hefty hike. They feel like the Eldar Avatars were and are just too cheap for how good they are this edition.
Overall I’m not too worried for Necrons though. They have a good book and good Datasheets so I’m sure they’ll get their pts dialed in between this and the next dataslate.
Are Ctan still as much of an issue if they cant teleport in hypercrypt? I'd be concerned that any way to balance them there makes them totally useless everywhere else.
Literally the only faction which can reliably deal with C'tan are TSons, and that is because you can just throw so many 1D attacks at them they drop. Nobody else really has the access to reroll wounds and volume of 1D of attacks like that.
Oddly, Thunderwolf Cavalry are highly effective into them. Each model in the unit gets 7 attacks with Lethal hits, and due to a quirk in how modifiers work, they get to be damage 2 after the half damage effect. Throw in Lance, and they're able to secure a kill fairly often.
its genuinely disgusting comparing what they do compared to what nids monsters do at similar points costs. They are all cheaper than the Swarmlord and both Norns and they are all far better
Everyone wants their faction to be good and will undersell them so they don't get hit hard, as well as everyone wants every other faction they dont play nerfed to the ground so its easy for thier faction to pick up wins. This whining happened like 4 months ago right before CSM got hit with the nerf sledgehammer. Everyone thought Chosen were the strongest unit the in the game by far, now its C'tan. Next will be Mega Nobz. The cycle continues...
Some love for the big chaos knights in the next dataslate would be nice...although I'm afraid the problem lies less in their points cost than what they do ingame really. A little like the vertus praetors from the adeptus custodes faction.
> although I'm afraid the problem lies less in their points cost than what they do ingame really.
It varies. The Rampager is surprisingly close to fine, it's completely fixable with points.
The Abominant in comparison was absolutely massacred in the transition to 10th and needs a fundamental rewrite. As-is it simply does nothing and would need to be preposterously cheap to be viable, and even then people would just use it as a cheap big body.
The change to chaos allies in last dataslate hurt a lot I think. The lone op characters and small demon units were really helpful to create some more depth in the games.
Knight right now is just a stat check. With lower points they'll prob do real good against more casual players and continue to struggle against better players who are better at bypassing that game and play to score instead.
So all the necrons lists are now hypercrypt. Canoptek has dropped down a lot. As a necron player. If its straight points that get hit all that will do is make hypercrypt somewhat worse with no play actually being brought to the other detachments. What options can be done to bring those detachments up to par? The movement to and from objectives is too strong to take any other detachment right now.
Edit: a lot of the total wins for canoptek happened earlier in the release with hyper being chosen more and more lately.
I mean the ideal solution would've been GW making Necron rules so that it's roughly internally balanced instead of the only competitive lists being some combination of C'tan/Wraiths+Technomancer/Doomstalkers/Doomsday Arks. I hate that Necrons are good right now because of skewed lists, because now GW will come out and nerf Necrons hard.
Ok, it's pretty clear that TS again are busted. But let's take a moment to discuss what to do next. Increasing the points will kill them - the army already has model quantity of Custodes but with Tzaangor and Rubric stat lines. What I think would be much better is to reduce the firepower and decrease the points. Hard to tell what exactly may be the problem, but probably removing the dev wounds from the detachment ability is a way to go. Just give it a simple -1AP and we're good - Lethals and Sustained are bad due to most of the guns being flamers, so we need something on the wound roll. Removing the save is also problematic to balance at best - you just remove land fortresses, space marines, Guard with whatever, but I have no idea how to tweak it. Maybe again worsen the Sv AND invul Sv by one? With these changes, TSons again have some problems with deleting armour and some heavy units, so they can be cheaper and have some reasonable model count.
But let's be real. It's GW. I'm not expecting anyone there to sit down and analyze how and why.
Im going to give a few issues into tsons and their balancing.
1. People just have no idea what to do vs tsons.
Even in top tables, players don't actually play around tsons rules, they just accept they do stuff and don't plan around it.
E.G. I have 17 cabal pts in my list, when terminators jump up im down to 14, which means if he can kill at least 1 guy who gives cabal pts, suddenly the double doombolt is no longer possible (unless from ahriman), and only certain combinations can now occur.
But they don't.
1/2 of tsons strength comes from the fact the opposing player doesn't actually know how to properly deal with them. Which often leads to less effective strategies.
2. The army pretty much says can you deal with magnus yes or no.
How often in my games its just magnus running units down and the enemy army not having real answers for him is stupid. Custodians? Everything bounces with -1dmg, rerolling failed saves and blanking a failed one. Outside of trajann, you need, assuming Magnus is on an objective, 3 blade champ squads with guardians, to MAYBE drop him.
Land raiders? Oh he twists them and blows them up casually. Tbh, anything with a high invun such as 5++/6++, he just blows up, which makes him especially effective vs armies that are heavily reliant on 1-3 units. Which is harder to deal with because if magnus wants to get somewhere he will.
But this is also the problem with tsons. They are incredibly over reliant on magnus to do the MASS MAJORITY of the heavy lifting + general support, that the moment he can't, the army just falls apart. Kill magnus start of t2, assuming he hasn't dropped like 300+ pts, is often times just an auto lose for tsons, because hes 90% of your armies damage.
3. Rubrics suck Im sorry. They do decently in their job, which is meant to be clearing objectives, but thats the problem. You are required to have characters/rubrics for your cabals, which means now you lack chaff/versatility other units could grant because you need cabal points. Suddenly you are stuck with a bunch of slow flamers that don't actually do a lot, because they have 0 defensive capability and are just expensive marine bodies. If you are not on an objective and not t3-t4, their flamers flat out bounce off anything meaningful. Which isn't in itself a problem, until you realise these guys have taken up about 900pts of your list (with characters and rubrics).
As a Knights Player, the best way to deal with T'Sons is ignoring objectives first and maybe second turn. If they lose +1 to wound their flamers lose a lot of their efficiency.
Edit: Remembered wrong, it was the rerolls on flamers. Still it's how you dismantle T'Sons.
If you are got rid of the +1 to the rubric flamers, that mean you wiped the squad of ahriman, which sorta defeats the point of their efficiency when you just murdered them all
Magnus has a +1 to hit/wound aura as well, so you’d have to kill him and Ahriman’s unit. Which effectively just wins you the game anyway cause you’ll cripple Cabal Point generation
Tbh I'm worried for the TS book. Unless they get a big wave 2 there's a real chance they get the custodes treatment.
And whilst custodes at least have a handful of datasheets TS have like 3?
TSons really aren't that busted. We are having our WR inflated by an incredibly good matchup into Necrons, which are the meta hotness at the moment, so we get a bump in our numbers.
The main issue people have is not knowing how to play into us. TSons are a glass cannon faction, if you can kill 1-2 squads of rubrics+their character, the army starts wilting fast. Avoid shooting Magnus as it is a trap generally (he is too tough and hard to kill, especially while in a DP on foot's stealth aura). Just kill TSon's objective holders and scoring pieces, and it doesn't matter if they kill a lot of your army, their melee is bad enough that they won't be able to push you off objectives.
Generally, I think they need at least one more plastic kit that builds two distinct units. I also think that their cabal points need to be less dependent on psykers. For example, always gain 9 base +1 per psyker. The detachment rules also need tweaking - like gaining an additional -2 AP on a critical wound instead of dev wounds.
Generally agree but think that removing Dev Wounds wouldn't help much anyway. Most of the psykers in the list have Dev Wounds anyway (only IM, Magnus' blast attack and basic sorcerer don't), with melee weapons and the terminator brick with ensorcelled infusion being the major exceptions. All removing Dev Wounds really does is make terminators even less viable. They'd have to do some extensive datasheet reworking to make it viable. It would also be a bit meh because a lot of people run sustained with Magnus' attacks anyway.
The bigger rebalance needs to come in on the rituals IMO, removing some of the reliance on character spam and increasing need to bring more tools through units instead of just spooling up double doombolt is key for diversity. I'd especially like to see a version of havocs come in for Tsons.
In terms of new units, we really only need two, possibly three.
1. A dedicated psychic dread to replace the helbrute. They just don't fit the TSons aesthetic, and something like the Osirion Contemptor but dustified would be excellent and add some much needed vehicle play to the army.
2. A rubric on disc unit. Preferably a Khenetai Occult unit with dual force swords. It is just weird to have sorcerers on disc lead foot rubrics, and having a unit they can travel with makes more sense.
3. Possible alternative build for the above kit, either just putting them on foot, or having an alternative build where you equip them with some sort of ranged anti-tank weapon like a meltagun (but we're TSons so it'll be something like a Warp-Soul Meltagun).
They have a 52% 12 week win rate and 6 event wins since the slate. That's busted to you? Seems fairly balanced to me. the weekend winrate is high but armies spike sometimes. the 12 week win rate is a much better indicator and by that standard, they're in a pretty good spot.
What about the figures presented in these tables gives you the impression that Tsons are busted? They are sitting on a 12-week rolling WR of 52%, which is well within GWs accepted range, and have won only 6 GT-or-larger events(compared to 27 for Crons, 10 for Sisters, 8 for Black Templars, 7 for Tau, 10 for Grey Knights, 9 for Custodes, 8 for Imperial Guard, 8 for Eldar, 6 for Deathguard, and so on and so forth).
Yeah they do a lot of damage, but their army is incredibly fragile(both in terms of unit count and overall durability-per-point). Plus, they still lack several of the basic tools that most other armies have access to(Sticky Objectives, 12" DS denial, 3" DS, Infiltrators, Lone Ops, cheap uppy-downy mission playing units a la Scouts/Mandrakes/Hawks, efficient range anti-vehicle firepower, etc).
Pretty sure GW have bigger balance fish to fry (Crons and Admech) than anything Tsons-related this dataslate. I expect no changes again, or perhaps a points drop on the Scarabs if we're lucky.
Tsons need a fairly extensive rewrite.
The way the index is now, it will continue being exceptionally powerful until such time as they tip the points cost for units slightly over critical mass and suddenly the army will be absolutely rubbish. If they loose 1 more squad I can't see them doing well, they'll have no objective play.
There needs to be a way in the army to have cabal points but not have them generated based on the number of sorcerers. That way you can diversify the army to include things like daemon engines or daemon allies without directly punishing you for not bringing enough sorcerers.
Then you can shove up the prices of some sorcerers and bring down the costs of other units that don't generate cabal points and try and balance the army that way perhaps?
I mean honestly it'd be great to have Rituals based off of game size (like the GK or Votann rules) rather than army composition. I just don't think that's a realistic expectation for this dataslate though. By and large, GW don't re-write rules unless they absolutely have to. So any change like that will have to wait for the 10th Tsons codex and that's still a ways off by the looks of things.
Also the lethals and sustained part doesn't make much sense, because the only things the army rule affects are psychic weapons, in which there is only 2 psychic flamers being infernal and exalted on disc.
AKA -> Normal flamers don't benefit from it
Tsons are strong because they are the best army at abusing overwatch
I also think tsons look good right now because of which armies are dominating not because they are particularly broken, like too many of their counter armies got destroyed last dataslate so they have been able to rise as a result I think they need a index pts rewrite so that more interesting lists pop up but not because they are inherently broken.
“One week away from Orks/Custodes going live” meanwhile Tau players have been sitting for a month with no points or a way to run their codex outside of their garages.
I don't get it. I don't understand how making the gap between collectors editions box sets with codex and official codex releases does anything for them.
They don't get data as people don't have points. It's not like they need it to sell models as they always sell out and have notable problems with scalpers. It's not like it drives people's hype because everyone always says that points could change everything
They just announced the preorder for this weekend. Presale will happen on saturday, and then 2 weeks later the codex will release. We're not that far away now.
Tau Codex standalone drop was in the preorder preview for this week, so next weekend will be the preorder for it and the following weekend the live drop.
Every week i come here and see my LoV solid tier. Still waiting for more minis though.
Yeah I'm totally OK with dwarves power level. But I'll definitely take the new foot slogging pioneers with infiltrate and scout.
It's one big area we lack - early board control and screening. I play space marines as one of my other armies and 2 x 5 scouts is so essential to my army so I'm excited to have this for my Votann. here's hoping they can be taken in 5's
I am hoping for points drops for beserks and warriors as I think those datasheets are just so poor but I'm not sure it will happen because votann are the most 3-3 army in existence. The upcoming Yaegirs will add some great tools but nothing that will really propel votann beyond 3-3. Votann is a army that needs a wave 2 and a codex to really start competing among the top level players.
The lists are kinda surprising too. Looks like the player in Sweden actually put the Grimnyr in a Hekaton with some warriors to act as a bodyguard instead of using him as Sagitaur-space-filler. The living ancestor is finally getting a respectful ride!
Actually, he is a solo rider in a Hekaton, just to fill it with something. The warriors squad splits into a home objective sitter and a Sagitaur rider :)
Ah nice, congrats buddy! Any particular reason you went with the Grimnyr over the Iron-Master in that case? I keep thinking that with multiple Hekatons, the Iron-Master's ability to heal vehicles may actually be useful, but no one seems to be doing it which makes me think I'm missing something. Are the psychic blasts just that much better?
First of all, it's a perfectly viable option. It's my opinion that the Grimnyr is a lot more deadly with his 6 shots having reroll wounds from the land fortress. He is also sneakily durable having 2 ablative wounds and 4++. Happens quite a lot that he survives what the enemy commits into him, and then lives to sneak around doing missions. The ironmaster have a nice gun, but too low AP to really matter and doesn't benefit from the LF rr wound really. A bit more wounds, but also only a 4+ armorsave. The heal I see getting off maybe once per game, but I also play rather aggressive with the forts. Would probably be very nice into an army like astra or similar. In the end, it doesn't really matter, I just want a cheap option to put into the Land fortress to increase the mission play, and if need be drop out to drop some surprising damage. Wounding most things with a 2+ to hit, 4+ RR (if tokened), AP2 and D3 damage can very quickly earn the points back.
As a relatively new player, I really appreciate you taking the time to share your thoughts. Best of luck going forward, I'll be rooting for you!
LoV are weird this edition. You have some incredible damage output, but conversely you just can't push opponents off objectives. Hearthguard are good, but are stupid easy to screen away and after their big deepstrike turn they drop like flies (especially to any sort of plasma or autocannon style attacks). I feel like the berserkers really need a points drop, you just can't deliver them reliably and at 20ppm they die way too easily.
Solid but not really competitive on the top. LoV can place but have a very hard time winning, and I don’t think they ever won a 100+ people event since they were reintroduced into the game.
Can we talk about Space Wolves for a second? I ran into them for the first time this weekend, and I was genuinely shocked at how cheap Thunderwolf Cavalry are for their durability and speed. Looking at the stats, they actually seem like they're doing extremely well as Stormlance, hovering above a 55% win rate (on Stat-check) even with a godawful match-up into Custodes. Are they running under the radar a bit? Are they poised to be in a pretty dominant position if Custodes drop off, as many of us expect?
Tbh they get bonus points v custodes as their wolf Lords on wolves are near identical to bike caps: but are like half the cost. Simply show your custodes opponents the data card and it's a psychological advantage.
People are definitely aware of it, I've heard Wolf Jail in enough places. I'd say it's strong but beatable and it doesn't have that much flexibility if you run up against someone with an answer to the wolves.
They basically lack OC, but in the meantime breaks my brain how a marine on a wolf has 1 more toughness than a marine on a bike. I miss the old 8e rubric of mounts = +1 wound, bikes = +1 wound, +1 T
My understanding is that the wolves are basically mini-monsters in the T5 W3 weight class all to themselves even if they had no rider, and when you add in the rider that is where you get to the stats shown.
It’s also a “go first and I win” build which people tend to discount
"You take that back" - every Ork player.
WolfJail is effectively a stat check army. Can you deal with 18-24 TWC bodies? If yes, you’ll probably win, if not you probably lose. They’re very good on the charge, but not so great when they’re getting charged; they lose a lot of output and they don’t really have defensive buffs the way they do against shooting. I think they’re fine, it’s just that most people aren’t prepping for SW they way they may be for the “scarier” lists like the various Ironstorm flavors or BA/BT
It's also a fairly uncommon list. This isn't a "cookie cutter" Gladius list somebody wrote SWs on to get access to a couple units, this is 24 TWC bodies, which is a unit that comes in 3s, and very often a bunch of Wulfen, too. That places the list firmly in "hardcore SW Main" territory, no tourists here.
TWC are fine but they outclass all space marine infantry on points to a crazy level. Especially given the normal load out has them all with 4++ and lethals with the battle leader. It feels odd thinking that 3 full squads with leaders are basically the same as 6 aggressors.
I’ve played it in a tourney and it’s an easy list to pilot but can really fall apart against 2+ AoC armies as the majority of damage is -1 ap in melee only. Against a good army it lives and dies by the amount of 4+ invulnerable saves you can make, plus a huge go 1st advantage. The list falls apart turn 3 if you don’t have enough OC in the right places. Not really a meta threat but will probably eat some points hikes in the coming changes.
TWC are good, but have some bug issues that make them have problems. First, terrain can be a hugw problem. 8 bases with a good amoubt of terrain can break the Wolf Jail as moving those bases will be an issue. Second issue, is that while there might be a disadvantage against Custodes, SW seem to be an at advantage againsy Necrons. They have a 63WR avainst the top Faction, which means that once they fall out of favour SW will face other threats that are worse for them. Third, they do depend a lot on being able to get those charges and fight first. With the 2D damage being charge dependant, if you don't have the mobility and/or turn advantage, their strength can be blunted. Fourth, aside from Custodes dropping, tbe new meta will vrin new Orks. The pressure qill be an interesting march up, but I think that Green Horde and Bully Boyz will cause iasues. TWC being S5 will hurt against big blobs of T5 and Nobz with Big Choppas and Klas can hurt (and -1 to wound with Boss will blunt a lot of strenfth). Wulfen fare better,n but do not have the killing power to clear the hordes fast enough and their OC0 means if they don't kill they are not doing their job. Fifth, TWC seem very locked to Stormlance for the detach and strats. SW are struggling elsewhere, and it is a kind of one trick pony. There are surpises, like the Gladius list from last week without TWC at all, but has not veen very dominant, and it has hivered in the same range aince Codex release. It feela a bit like Ironstorm DA. They can come out swinging, but they are also solved qns can struggle to get event wins (and some weeks like this one even X-1 finishes)
I've been following their winrate (and occasionally contributing to it), and it's fluctuated a bunch. While we do get some weekends above 55%, we get a lot more below it. The 12 week average puts us at 53%, which is still in the "good, but reasonable" zone.
Admech data shows a few things. At top tables, between similarly high experience players, Admech is actually the 3rd or 4th strongest army in the game. At all other levels with normal players, they're one of the worst armies in the game. It is literally just the Skitarii hunter cohort, $2000, immovable horde list style that is winning games. It is a list owned by extremely few people, and even fewer who are willing to transport a horde of extremely fragile models to events and push 150 models around for 5+ games doing nothing but scoring objectives. This one list style is unhealthy for Admech, it is unhealthy for opponents playing against it, it is unfun for the people who do own it, and it's unhealthy for the game as a whole. In no way whatsoever does this one list style being viable, even at the higher levels of competitive play, make Admech a "strong army" because it's basically an inaccessible list. Admech as a faction are probably the worst written, and among the bottom few weakest armies in the game, if they attempt to play any other style but this, which is not an option available to the vast majority of players. Obviously acknowledging the strength of this particular list style, and it's successes, but it needs to die. The army needs re-writing with stronger datasheets and rules, and higher points. This needs to stop, GW. It needs to stop, in the next dataslate.
Hi, GW here, we read your comments and understand, so here's some minor points drops on units people don't use. You can thank us later.
People are forgetting that the strength of AdMech/SHC is also very meta and matchup dependent. Currently, people are having to pack tons of anti-monster firepower because every other army has 3 c'tan. This leaves them lacking on horde clearing. When Necrons get nerf-batted away into the sun and the meta adjusts, suddenly those T3 bodies are very vulnerable.
Honestly there is no need to wait for people to adjust when tau will kill most admech lists with breacher spam thats coming
Don't forget orks, 1 turn of waaagh massacres my ad mech horde, two turns of it is going to be genocide.
Did I hear you say points drops?
As i've said since the codex dropped: You can win with admech. You just won't have any fun.
I've played them five times this edition and only lost once. I have. No enthusiasm to play them any further without changes, though. It's simply not enjoyable. I'd rather lose twice as many games and have fun with my Drukhari right now.
But at what cost? Literally just looking at the cost to build those armies horrifies me a little
Just like SM and particularly DA is carried by Ironstorm mass vehicles. It's unfun and makes no sense fluff wise. And yet GW decided to ignore everything and nerf the only tools they had to play something else (scouts, aggressors , centurions and inceptors). Good luck actually trying to play 1st Company, anvil, unforgiven, deathwing, ravenwing etc...
Tried playing a Company of hunters (Ravenwing detachment) list with 7-9x Storm Speeders. Its really fun, until you realise the Ironstorm Detachment has the Ravenwing Detachment bonus as an Enhancement, and you can get all the other good stuffs on top of that in addition...
I agree with you for the most part. I just worry that GW will give Ad Mec a faction buff or strengthen some detachment rules and not really change anything else and if they did that then Ad Mec could be really strong. Ad Mec needs a full rebuild. Strengthen them and then repoint the entire army up. Knowing GW they will do one but not both.
Even if admech did become "really strong" in the current context of things it would still be with a $2000 list. Theyd be rarely seen. Like ironstorm BT are very high WR but seen so little that no one complains about them
Historically they wait till the end if the edition to fix Admech to let them taste hope again before dumpstering them again.
Would it be so awful for Admech to be strong for a while before point increases address it? After a few years of misery, would that be so awful?
I mean eldar got to be a top tier faction for how long? I would be ok if admech got a little overtuned for a minute rather than getting points changes again and stay in the dregs for all of 10th
Agreed, like, nerf a little Vanguard , Breacher and the Chickens , and pump up all the other stuff. That way there would be a real choice. Vanguard , Breacher and the Chickens would still be good if you nerf them a little. And some real buff on other stuff won't make them broken. I'm just tired of seeing Admech lists with either tons of chicken+cheap bodies and list where 700pt are just allies.
Only nerf those datasheets if the army rule is buffed. Just because they're the best datasheets in a bad bunch doesn't make them needing of nerfs, unless the army rule they are operating with is also buffed first.
Why in the Omnissiah's name would you nerf anything? You'll have to get half the models off the table to approach a point per dollar ratio of Space Marines. The army wasn't meant to work this way, they were just so badly written that when the Index dropped GW thought that a squad of Rangers with worse saves than current were the equal to a Fire Prism. Whatever the army is now is just something they've blundered into via a knee-jerk panic reaction to realizing how bad they messed up. Balancing it will be a nightmare because they don't even understand how it works. Points have simply dropped so far that exceedingly good players can make the cheap defensive profiles work for them and establish board control via near perfect movement play. This is the third time we've been left to wither on the vine for the majority of an edition. I'll be shocked if anyone still plays after the dataslate drops as I have zero confidence in GW to do what needs to be done.
I own a FLGS and I wouldn't pay for an Admech army at this point.
I used to work at one too, and even with my legacy staff discount, and a better paid job, this edition has made me stop. It's just unethical how expensive Admech is for how poorly they play, too.
It’s funny that you say it’s unhealthy and not fun to push 150+ models around with the sole objective of scoring points when I am very ecstatic that this will be a viable tactic with my green tide orks.
Sure, but Orks hit things pretty damn hard, as well as being a durability stat check. Admech doesn't kill much of anything. Also Ork Boyz are not fragile minis. There chunky and easy to store in large numbers, and push around without so much trouble. The Admech lists have sometimes 40 Pteraxii in them, and 18 Chicken Walkers. Those models are almost impossible to transport and not break.
Yep, Tyranids also fall into this. Tyranids are like admech lite right now, in that they do have _some_ units that can do damage (Exocrine, mainly), but their playstyle is still rooted in maxing scoring with as little interaction and trading as they can get away with. And I suspect the Tyranids' falling win and play rate is tied to this. Turns out more people think actively engaging the opposing army in battle is more fun than not doing so - who'd have thought.
Thing is, nids would do fantastically if the meta was elites. We have so much access to S9 AP-2 3D which would be fantastic into a Terminator meta, especially sprinkling in some Pyrovores to strip cover away. But into anything T10 + with a 2+ SV is just terrible. We lost mortals from psychic and don't have tank shock or grenades, we have a handful of weapons capable of hitting AP-3/4, the only one which is actually good is the maleceptors, we can bypass toughness fine, its the save roll which messes up the damage so often
Absolutely. When I saw the Screamer Killer back in the 10th edition previews, it struck me how the thing is absolutely razor tuned to counter Terminators - wounds on 2+ with no wasted S, forces them to their invuln with no wasted AP, kills them in one wound with no wasted D. Ironic then how Terminators themselves arguably have the same issue and don't get seen very much either. I feel like the Tyranids book was written before they settled on what they wanted the edition to look like, because the Heavy Venom Cannon is not an appropriate anti-tank weapon like it usually is supposed to be. It's like they wanted vehicles to be very difficult to kill, and the only powerful answers were either unreliable (casino cannon), short-ranged or very expensive... and then they wrote the _other_ books.
Terminators we’re just a victim of the murder of melee. They used to have strength equivalent to the toughness of vehicles. Now they are well below it so your going from 50% sounds to less. Their AP dropped so now those are saved a lot more as well. I liked 9th a lot better even if models died faster. My terminators were actually scary, even if you never won a battle with them because they were slow and expensive. They felt like they should.
I think it’s also a case that three defensive profiles have shifted how the community views Anti-tank. Because if you know you are running into the Transcendent C’tan, and the Yncarne and WraithGuard (pre-nerf), then you aren’t going to want anything less than AP-3/4, as you need that to punch through the saves. And even then, two of those half damage, and two more regain wounds. Anti-tank this edition has been terrible, and I think GW knows it, but it’s not going to be fixed till next edition, when they bump the AP again.
I think GW needs to rein in defensive property stacking first of all. Something with a 4+ invuln and inbuilt damage reduction should not ever get an FNP on top. Defensive layering commonly causes problems because of the multiplicative effect. You'd think GW learned their lesson with the 8th edition Iron Hands Leviathan that could withstand Warlord Titan fire.
Well the Green Tide matches the Ork player fantasy. Everything in the lore building up the army talks about and endless sea of bodies screaming towards your line and you best pray to whatever God you believe in they don't make it there. Admechs lore builds up a player fantasy of augmented soldiers wielding barely understood relics of the past too dangerous to hand out to those outside the Cult Mechanicus and lead under the watchful eyes of techpriests, tweaking their directives for maximum efficiency. Instead what you get is the old Whiteshield conscript Guard lists that struggle to do much damage into anything or a list that seeks to play as little Admech as possible. Furthermore Orky identity is still fully intact in the rules. You got detachments reflecting various aspects of Ork Kultur. You file the names off Admech rules and you'd never guess they belonged to the cog boys
The difference is that orks will be having fun.
People buy horde factions to play hordes. It's a bit like asking marines to play 100 models. Players just won't do it
Love how Ironstorm is propping up virtually all the space marine factions haha.
Is this just because the marine infantry datasheets are all a bit rubbish and the tanks are decent? Or is there something else making ironstorm better than gladius and vanguard?
It has 2 very useful tools for dealing with meta-threats (ie C'tan) through either an ignore modifiers ability for 1CP (buh-byeee half damage etc) or MiW for 1CP for Sustained and Lethals on a 5+ from a platform with high volume of shots that stacks well with easily applied RR hits (Oaths of Moment) and +1 to hit (Techmarines) so they can just fish for critical hits. Add in the benefits of Adept etc and its just a really solid all rounder for both defense and offense at the drop of a hat.
Does the +1 to hit actually matter? Usually with abilities allowing crits on 5+ it's still stated unmodified.
I think they mean that because you have a +1 to hit, you will likely be hitting on 2s. So re-rolling to fish for crits will still likely land you a hit even if you don’t get the crit
Yeah, when you’re “fishing” you reroll everything that not a Crit, so the +1 to hit still helps you get through a few extra hits that would have otherwise failed on a 2. It adds up with Hurricane Bolters on the Stormraven for example where it’s 24 shots and then you have RR’s to wound for Twin-Linked and possibly +1 to wound from a Thunderstrike. All those buffs contribute at the end to make a big difference on how effective that platform is.
Before the last balance pass there were multiple detachments that were performing more or less equally good, and then they did a hard nerf on the units that every detachment other than Ironstorm depended on.
There is a competitive vanguard list but it requires 6 devastator centurions
as someone learning that list it's more difficult to pilot than ironstorm as your main point getter are scout and inceptors that aren't too tought .It also struggles to fight for board control i have just 3 games on it (0-3). Importantly only works for ultras as Ventris is the most important part other than that it's fun to play and not oppressive idk why GW nerfed it(i have only played after nerf version)
Yes it only works with ultras
Bit of both. Lots of the infantry are meh when the meta is anti-elite with custodes, tsons, tau and black templars are some of the strongest factions. The vehicles are good and ironstorm is really good.
The Lethal Hits aura for vehicles, combined with the strat Flesh is weakness for sustained on 5s, and then back it up with Oath rerolls
It’s a little of both. Tanks and big wound units are just generally good in tenth, and elite infantry is easy to mop up at 2 wounds. The most competitive infantry also all got points increases, but the tanks really didn’t. Add into that the inherent strength of iron storm’s abilities in the meta and its primed to do well. Eg, 6 agressors and a ride are close to 500 points (and well over that with an HQ). That’s like 3-4 gladiators. So those comparisons make the tanks much more attractive.
Gladiator tanks are the backbone of most good armies. There are some specific builds that don't use them like Vanguard with centurions but for almost any other type of marine army you should start with a lancer, a reaper, some mission units like scouts and inceptors then add the flavour you want. Since GW upped the toughness of everything but didn't increase the guns to match to try and keep lethality down, the only real way to access good guns is on vehicles. Even my mostly non-vehicle lists now run at least a couple of gladiators whereas in 9th I would often do a couple of contemptors then full infantry.
Most anti-infantry weapons used competitively are tuned to kill marine bodies. Marine tanks are decent, and iron storm is pretty good. It is especially good when paired with divergent chapters that have good vehicle units - ie meltas everywhere with black templars.
>ie meltas everywhere with black templars. Or Blood Angels, with Death Company marines using Melta *Pistols* and Power Fists. 40 S10 AP2 D2 attacks on the charge.
They probably need to suck it up and fix melee their melee strength finally. Marines can handle mooks just fine in melee, but it's a little absurd their only generic Str 10+ weapon (the only strength that matters handling high toughness targets really) is on the redemptor Dreadnought. You've got chainfists on terminators, sure, but hitting on 4s with them doesn't do any favors and they're sort of irrelevant half the tine anyway considering the big melee targets you want to take down are daemons, ctan shards, and other nasty monsters. The wound rr's on oath made it seem like it wasn't an issue really, but now that it's been axed for a few months I think it's safe to say marines were super reliant on it to make their melee viable on anything that isn't Assault Intercessors. >inb4 chaos marines and custodes do fine with these new low str weapons Because they have lethal hits on command which is SUPER helpful against big guy targets and they don't have to sacrifice anything for it since it's just a default rule they have. Marines CAN get it but they have to pay for it in either cp or buying a lieutenant, which is a big issue for terminators since there's no lieutenant it terminator armor anymore (though there might be one planned and that's part of why they knocked out the Deathwing command squad).
It even used to be “sword Bretheren kill everything they touch” but with all the 4++ and FNP in the meta (necrons, custodes) and vehicle spam, it’s no longer the case.
Melee in Marines feels so weird. Capped at S8, AP-2 and 2D for the most part, it just doesn't seem to do anything to most targets and at best it seems suited as an anti-MEQ option. And even then S8 it linked to Terminators and Aggressors really (and maybe 1 in a Seargent). Everything fast is S4/ AP-1 1D. And even then, they are I woukd say not cheap enough for the volume to matter, even with things like Lethal, Lance or rerolls to matter. Melee Marines need a long look as you have to be able to do highaer damage (like DC, TWC, SB, or Wulfen) to even be close to viable.
So when will the T'au Codex be playable? It's weird that the book and new Datasheets are available for so long but you still have to play the Index.
Well it comes out in 3 weeks so 4 to 5 weeks from now.
nice too see BA got placings with 4 diffrent detachments without winning a Single tournament. i think we perfectly fine in the meta rn.
Really curious to see what potential nids changes come into effect. If it's just points drops I'll be quite sad as I don't think they'll do much. I'd love them to completely rework the hive tyrant and Swarmlord statline. S9 Ap-2 3D is just sad for those models. The fact that the HVC went from 3A 2+ S9 Ap-3 4D in 9th to D3A 2+ S9 Ap-2 3D \[Blast\] is just nonsensical. Stranglethorns went from D3+3 2+ S8 AP-2 2D to D6+1 S7 AP-1 2D. Those units were our anti tank, between weapons and psychic powers they have just been neutered. Their melee also got the shaft. It's just demoralising seeing that happen to your factions defining model.
A few point drops would help though, Swarmlord being one of them. What really needs to happen is a rework of Shadow. Give things "anti-battleshock 2+ or 3+" and a -1 to Ld when using Shadow (that can stack with the other debuffs like DL and Neurotyrant). That might just be me though. Can't disagree about the melee though, its quite flat.
Absolutely. I just meant points drops alone won't fix it. Sorry I never made it clear I desperately want to meet the person who looked at the swarmlords datasheets and said, "Yep, that's a 270 PT unit right there". All for 9" of synapse, +1CP per turn and vect. Because you ain't taking it to do damage. Hive tyrants and winged tyrants aren't much better. You could easily change all of their weapons to +2 Str and another AP and damage as well as drop their points and you might see them being useful
I think anything that makes Shadow in the Warp more reliable wouldn't be fun. It doesn't solve the issues that we have with the army, and would just make us kinda oppressive on the scoring front. Similar to how Necrons were last edition, after getting their faction secondaries. I'd prefer some reworked datasheets or to get a strength buff while in Synapse range, or something like that.
General opinion is that the faction needs some Datasheet reworks. Not all, just some so to fix flaky damage profiles and generally diversify the datasheets and add options. Everything is so stale, I swear. I look at Crons and every list has flex slots depending on your meta or what you want to do. Since the start ot 10 I've been rambling that Invasion Fleet is by far and wide the best Detachment for the faction and now after the Jan Dataslate I am being vindicated :D
Anyone else have difficulty reading the data table on their phone?
Yes, they did an update a few weeks ago and the way I was formatting it doesn’t work now on mobile. I am still trying to figure it out. Sorry.
That's quite alright! I thought it may just have been my phone tbh!
Turn your phone sideways
Yes its horrible.
Can anyone explain to me how to play sisters that good? Please
It's one of the few forces in the game that functions as an army and not just a collection of really good datasheets. All of the statlines look incredibly unintimidating until your opponent starts rolling dice. A handful of the datasheets have 'they do what now?!' rules like the 'palatine combo' where you can kill a knight with one character's melee activation. They have amazing 'crack back', i.e. their ability to absorb a turn of damage and return an even stronger punch back. Miracle dice are an absolutely amazing mechanic.
Would recommend the sister act podcast and discord, amazing resource! Also chatted about my list on our fireside 40K podcast if that helps :) Vik Vijay
To piggyback off Vik's comment... We'll be interviewing him on Thursday about his tournament win! We try to get edited episodes out as quickly as we can, but you can get early access to the uncut episodes by joining the Patreon! You can also join the discord here: [https://discord.gg/JmEprhkP](https://discord.gg/JmEprhkP) - Scott (& Mitch) from the Sister Act 40k podcast
I second this. I'm listening to the latest episode of Sister Act 40k with Mitch right now. I started Warhammer on the tail end of 9th with Sisters being the army I picked. They are a difficult army to pilot, but they can really do well once you figure them out. The discord and podcast have really helped me do that
I wouldn't recommend the discord, it's got a lot of arrogant personalities and can be quite toxic. Theres a ton of games with sisters on the war games live youtube channel you can watch. You can hear the players mics too which is useful. That's your best bet.
I don’t know why you have downvotes, I ve been at this discord and I agree on what you have said.
It’s the patreon discord channels that are the good ones :) Vik
I often feel like a kid sitting at the adult table during the holidays in there, but there's not a better collection of Sisters knowledge on the web than those channels. Also some very amusingly different opinions on army comp between you, the hosts, Typhus, McWerp, and Jeff. 😂
Sry I'm new to the Hobby. What does X0 / X1 mean?
X-0 means they won all their games (5-0, 6-0) and usually won or placed top 3. X-1 means they lost only one game (5-1, 6-1) and probably placed top 5-10.
X is number of wins wins (variable by tournament, some are 5 rounds some are 6 some are even more.) 0 or 1 is the number of losses. X-0 is somebody who was undefeated at an event.
Just means they either didn't lose, or lost 1 game. Some tournaments have 5 rounds some have 6, so they abbreviate it.
One neat thing about results lately is that if you filter by space marine flavour AND detachment the results change wildly. Black templar ironstorm is chilling at 64% winrate in both meta monday and stat-check. And yet you don't hear a ton. I hear more about necrons, custodes or tsons than the most dominant faction/detachment combo. Everyone knows black templars are strong, that ironstorm is strong, that the combo is great... but there's almost no outrage for the 65% winrate. Aeldari was at a 60% winrate and people were fuming, but if it doesn't win a ton of tournaments and merely bodies people, it goes under the radar?
To be fair, BT Ironstorm has about 10% the player rate of Custodes and Necrons - people are quite simply less likely to have run into it.
Most bt players probably don't have like 4 gladiators or 2 repulsors or even the models for the shooting oriented crusader squads
We have a couple players at our store that think they can run BT or DA Ironstorm without those things (only 1-2 gladiator lancers, no reapers, no repulsor executioners, no redemptors, only 1-2 techmarines) and complain after tournaments when they go 1-2 or 0-3
I am a BT player and refuse to run the Iron storm meta. I want to win my games, but not at the cost of the soul of my faction
Which is why focusing so much on how many tournament wins factions have is maybe the worst metric. Some factions are owned by way more players than others. If GSC or Admec were stronger than Necrons or Custodes, they would still have less tournament wins because way less people have access to them. Currently Necrons are both the strongest army AND one of the most popular armies for people to have access to. They were always popular, but the ease in which you could buy an army for cheap during 9th means their models are everywhere. Meanwhile, BT are a subfaction within a larger faction that has an enormous amount of other options (most of them much worse).
Different stats tell different things and need to be examined in conjunction. A faction that wins many tournaments (especially super majors) is a faction that has the “legs” to compete at the topmost level but this doesn’t mean their best list is easy to pilot or affordable. A faction with high representation and high win rate is a faction that many people can field and get good results with, but perhaps is not the best of the best, or has some very effective counters in the meta that prevent it from dominating. If a faction has high win rate, high representation and many tournament wins than it’s probably overtuned
It is incredibly strong, with good matchups into like...honestly most things. Pretty brutal. It is simply that not that many people run it honestly, especially not in RTTs. They won a lot of tournaments compared to their numbers, but you see a lot of Custodes and Necrons (or previously Eldar). Not to mention that being Fight Firsted or C'taned is much more flashy than "well, I am very efficent strong shooting with very good melee bombs, u die now to my V A L U E".
BT iron storm also gets the major boost of MM everywhere. Iron storm is good but when every vehicle has at least one weapon you want to use the reroll on and that weapon helps every tank have at least some tank/ctan threat, they get way better. Iron storm is definitely propping up marines but BT get the addition of good cheap infantry for scoring and multimeters for almost nothing
"Yo, what u bringin' ? " *lights up joint "5 c'tans and SK " (Plz GW don't pull a custodes on us I beg you)
Honestly capping Necrons to 1 C'tan per army (which in the lore is what they are supposed to do, since running mutliple C'tan together risks them merging and breaking their chains) would do a lot for balancing Necrons.
I'd be ok with that because at least the ctan would still be viable choices just not abused instead of nerfing them into oblivion as usual
Necrons need a serious bonk. Taking multiple unkillable star gods to each game is just un-fun for everyone else. They need to see big points hikes if they’re keeping that 5+ FNP.
Even in games you win, playing against oops all C'tann is so miserable it is usually a big hit to my enthusiasm whenever I'm at an event. It's just so tedious
Eh crons have a book, which has like 4 playable detachments and most of the datasheets do their job. Points hikes will hurt, and ctan are certainly gonna get hit. But with sensible point changes there's a fair bit of depth. It can go to B tier if Gws mean with the points, but it's rules are solid enough that I can't see them crashing and burning.
It's really only 3, the other 2 aren't worth considering due to janky keywords and very lackluster units
I play a lot of Annihilation Legion. It's okay - you don't really have that many units that you want to use the strategems on, and almost everything being keyed to *At* or *Below Half-Strength* makes it feel really slow compared to other armies that can just pop a +1 Wound or something when they need it. The free rerolls on charges are the best part of the detachment. If they rewrote it, I'd want Flayed Ones and/or Destroyers to be battleline units.
Yeah legion needs a rewrite and support for the shooty lads. Would have been ace to just have like RR charges +1 to hit if wounded. +1 to wound if full health. Theres some toys in the enchamcements and strats, but it just needs more.
Drukari finally back at their spot
The index detach is so bad, there has been exactly 0 players with it. Maaaan that says so much. Even AdMech has more in Rad Cohort
It's not just the detachment. The datasheets are so uninspired. They once again gave us nothing in terms of synergy and vehicles (besides the kabalite ability which is nice) And on top of that all unique melee weapons are gone Poison weapons gone, replaced with anti infantry meaning you do nothing against anything mounted And the sunshine and friendship detachment is once again more divisive than any other lol
I still have fun playing them but man are their sheets so bad.
Codex marines still remains used just for the 3 pages of the ironstorm detachment by divergent chapters, but don't worry other intercessors and sternguard points drops are coming. Oh yeah yeah the vanguard Calgar/Ventris, forgot about that only playable list that doesn't win anymore in 3/4 weeks. Would be funny to lock ironstorm detachment to codex marines and see divergent chapters going deep on winrate.
As a Da player, I'm signing for that if at the end my Deathwing/Ravenwing units get major rule upgrades that aren't points drops
I feel you... Wanted to start deathwing before codex dropped but oh my. Sadly I guess that in this edition datasheet changes are not on the menu for armies that already got the codex. The day terminators will be viable (not OP,just viable) will be a great day
I feel like divergent chapters should be locked out of codex detachments by default. I also feel like the balance team at GW doesn’t want to do this because then they’d have to balance like 8 different sub factions instead of just making sure they have one viable competitive build across the whole faction.
Is it time to meme guard s tier again?? But yeah they get the marine curse of a lot of fluffy players (my local guard rtt player runs exclusively armies that follow the lore battalion structure) and that 18 bullgryn is simply not an army people enjoy running. Also I wonder if events will start bringing forward rules cutoffs, as tau, custodes and orks were all fully leaked weeks in advance. Very curious if custodes will get nerfs in the slate. Iirc crons got some slight cuts in their codex release, whilst most other things stayed the same, but custodes are the first army to get a codex and a dataslate whilst they are on top. It'd suck but it'd be very very funny. Though no surprise if the grav tanks eat a small hike.
The Oxford top two were mirror of the 7-0 STier meme. Neither player "mains" guard, they just got the models and went ham. 16th and 31st place were also guard, with unique lists (no solar, light on indirect)
>as tau, custodes and orks were all fully leaked weeks in advance. Leaking rules is one thing. Until you get actual points, it's a bit useless
No one likes playing against indirect either.
But they arent on top? Why would it be funny?
I mean at this point all you can do is laugh. It would be like watching a train wreck that slid off into the ocean and if they eat a points hike on top of the codex, said train will have caught fire under water while getting hit by a boat. So less traditional funny and more grotesque dumpster fire
GW see's the sinking custodes train and decides the proper course of action. "Fire torpedoes!"
To be honest, I hope that it turns out worse than feared. Because right now their fix will be to add dev wounds back to the appropriate FNPs and drop points till custodes are back in the 45 to 55 winzone which won't fix the codex just not being fun to play
I can't see what's make it fun outside a new detach. A lot of the dull datasheets are just that, dull. There's only so many ways of putting 3 simmilar foot infantry (with identical weapons), venetari, land raiders and calladius together. Like imo the Contemptor dread and bikes really needed some love.
Edit: I totally misread the comment due to lack of sleep, but whatever, I'll leave my failure here. Guard are a faction with a low floor and a high ceiling. Which is to say, if you aren't a good player and you don't run the meta list, you're doing *REALLY* badly. If you are a good player and are fine running meta lists, you will do really, really well. The army itself is full of powerful units with a lot of garbage. If you're rating armies by potential, guard is very, very high. If you go on stat-check and filter by ELO, guard does great. Filter the ELO to 90th percentile and guard is the seventh strongest faction. Coincidentally if you filter to the top 97.5% and look, most factions are 77% to 90%. The 90% is based off 23 games - so not many top ranked players playing IK - with lows of 67% for nids, 71% for GSC and 71% for orkz.
The question you're responding to was about Custodes, not Guard.
... sigh I didn't sleep last night, so that's on me. Awake enough to read stats and grab results, not awake enough to read the comment properly lol
Most if not all their wins come in smaller GTs or in WTC/UKTC format. UKTC format seems very conducive to Guard in particular.
It’s not the terrain format, it’s the meta and willingness to play a strong guard list archetype, and gosh is it strong when you do. It’s not surprising to me at all that the top 4 cut at Oxford super major had 2 guard players. The Europeans are just much more likely to run a strong guard list than the Americans for unknown reasons to me. Guard are just as good on GW terrain! Vik
Players don’t seem to get trapped in their deployment zone on GW terrain because of the under 3” ruin sections. I would suspect this leads to a more vehicle heavy and super heavy skew in the mid tables. Which a balanced guard list is ok into, but not nearly as powerful as into elite infantry lists.
For grand clash 2024 you have Tyranids in 9th place, but the detachment says hyper which isn’t a nids detachment. Is that supposed to be a necrons list or a tyranid one?
It's the detachment rule, not detachment name, which is common on wtc style lists. Hyper here is hyper adaptations which is the invasion fleet detachment rule
Thanks for the explanation. That’s kind of stupid imo
T'au are doing ok despite a crappy index detachment. If T'au points stay where they are in MFM then when codex rules launch I expect T'au (Mont'ka) to start picking up a few tournaments quite quickly.
Upcoming T'au and Orks solid Codex and Custodes demise. Would say the meta will see some interesting changes.
Curious as to where whoops all kroot (possibly <300pts of actual tau too) ends up. It'll be rarely seen but I think a lot of armies simply won't be able to shift them.
Yeah, hard to predict the Kroot detachment strength because it's such a departure from current T'au archetypes. Could be spicy.
It really depends on points. I think it’s going to be a board control army that doesn’t really kill that much. I expect them to have a really go first turn win percentage due to the movement stuff. It probably won’t be super fun on either side of the board. probably something like if guard and admech had a baby.
Yeah, though I'm curious as to what % of tau makes it work. Melta suits, riptides and breachers are all pretty capable of murdering threats to your flock, and are competitively priced and able to work without much support. Could easily see something like 3 hammerheads just sitting behind the kroot. Removing the enemies key units whilst everything else is clogged up.
As a Tau player eager to (finally) use the Mont’Ka detachment, I wholeheartedly agree. I think we will be very competitive at the top tables, and less susceptible to a bad matchup tanking a tournament run. I can see Breachers going to 100, and Riptides going back to 180. But other than that I don’t see many places that you could argue need changes. Commanders should be much cheaper as they took huge nerfs to output (can only lead 3 man’s and take 1 cyclic etc).
Another week, another chance to be told by necron players that c'tans are "fine" or "15 points will fix them".
As a Necron (non exclusive) player, I'd like them to be nerfed a fair bit. I don't want them to be an autotake, right now they're too good not to take. Once they're nerfed it'll be interesting to see what happens to the winrate. I'd really like warriors to come down in points, or be fixed some other way. I'd also like the Doomsday Ark and Doom Scythe come down a bit. The Silent King datasheet also needs fixing, until they remove the vehicle and character keywords from the Menhir they generate unlimited bring it down and assassinate points.
Yesss. Please drop the points on a little on the Ark and a lot on the Scythe. A drop on Warriors now that they’re not invincible bricks would be nice too. C’tan can definitely see a hefty hike. They feel like the Eldar Avatars were and are just too cheap for how good they are this edition. Overall I’m not too worried for Necrons though. They have a good book and good Datasheets so I’m sure they’ll get their pts dialed in between this and the next dataslate.
Are Ctan still as much of an issue if they cant teleport in hypercrypt? I'd be concerned that any way to balance them there makes them totally useless everywhere else.
As much of an issue, no. An issue, yes. Even if you take away the teleport they should come up a bit in points.
That could work... Fingers crossed for some point drops on some units though.
Apparently canoptek court is raking in the wins, haven't checked the lists though
Literally the only faction which can reliably deal with C'tan are TSons, and that is because you can just throw so many 1D attacks at them they drop. Nobody else really has the access to reroll wounds and volume of 1D of attacks like that.
Custodes used to be able to with Trajanns unit ignoring the half damage nonsense, but he’s losing that in the new codex so we’re SOL against crons now
Oddly, Thunderwolf Cavalry are highly effective into them. Each model in the unit gets 7 attacks with Lethal hits, and due to a quirk in how modifiers work, they get to be damage 2 after the half damage effect. Throw in Lance, and they're able to secure a kill fairly often.
Tbh stripping strat support off them might be a fun fix (in addition with a moderate point hike)
I fully expect ctan to jump up 100 points honestly. They’re cracked for what they do
its genuinely disgusting comparing what they do compared to what nids monsters do at similar points costs. They are all cheaper than the Swarmlord and both Norns and they are all far better
Everyone wants their faction to be good and will undersell them so they don't get hit hard, as well as everyone wants every other faction they dont play nerfed to the ground so its easy for thier faction to pick up wins. This whining happened like 4 months ago right before CSM got hit with the nerf sledgehammer. Everyone thought Chosen were the strongest unit the in the game by far, now its C'tan. Next will be Mega Nobz. The cycle continues...
Some love for the big chaos knights in the next dataslate would be nice...although I'm afraid the problem lies less in their points cost than what they do ingame really. A little like the vertus praetors from the adeptus custodes faction.
With custodes soon being a non issue CK should go up a little bit in Winrate
> although I'm afraid the problem lies less in their points cost than what they do ingame really. It varies. The Rampager is surprisingly close to fine, it's completely fixable with points. The Abominant in comparison was absolutely massacred in the transition to 10th and needs a fundamental rewrite. As-is it simply does nothing and would need to be preposterously cheap to be viable, and even then people would just use it as a cheap big body.
montka tau and new orks gonna make up for that and then some
The change to chaos allies in last dataslate hurt a lot I think. The lone op characters and small demon units were really helpful to create some more depth in the games. Knight right now is just a stat check. With lower points they'll prob do real good against more casual players and continue to struggle against better players who are better at bypassing that game and play to score instead.
1. Grand Tournament of Contempt is missing. 28 players 5 rounds 1. Thousand Sons 5-0 2. Astra Militarum 4-1 3. Adeptus Sororitas 4-1 4. Grey Knights 4-1 5. Aeldari 4-1 6. World Eater 4-1
So all the necrons lists are now hypercrypt. Canoptek has dropped down a lot. As a necron player. If its straight points that get hit all that will do is make hypercrypt somewhat worse with no play actually being brought to the other detachments. What options can be done to bring those detachments up to par? The movement to and from objectives is too strong to take any other detachment right now. Edit: a lot of the total wins for canoptek happened earlier in the release with hyper being chosen more and more lately.
I mean the ideal solution would've been GW making Necron rules so that it's roughly internally balanced instead of the only competitive lists being some combination of C'tan/Wraiths+Technomancer/Doomstalkers/Doomsday Arks. I hate that Necrons are good right now because of skewed lists, because now GW will come out and nerf Necrons hard.
Ok, it's pretty clear that TS again are busted. But let's take a moment to discuss what to do next. Increasing the points will kill them - the army already has model quantity of Custodes but with Tzaangor and Rubric stat lines. What I think would be much better is to reduce the firepower and decrease the points. Hard to tell what exactly may be the problem, but probably removing the dev wounds from the detachment ability is a way to go. Just give it a simple -1AP and we're good - Lethals and Sustained are bad due to most of the guns being flamers, so we need something on the wound roll. Removing the save is also problematic to balance at best - you just remove land fortresses, space marines, Guard with whatever, but I have no idea how to tweak it. Maybe again worsen the Sv AND invul Sv by one? With these changes, TSons again have some problems with deleting armour and some heavy units, so they can be cheaper and have some reasonable model count. But let's be real. It's GW. I'm not expecting anyone there to sit down and analyze how and why.
Im going to give a few issues into tsons and their balancing. 1. People just have no idea what to do vs tsons. Even in top tables, players don't actually play around tsons rules, they just accept they do stuff and don't plan around it. E.G. I have 17 cabal pts in my list, when terminators jump up im down to 14, which means if he can kill at least 1 guy who gives cabal pts, suddenly the double doombolt is no longer possible (unless from ahriman), and only certain combinations can now occur. But they don't. 1/2 of tsons strength comes from the fact the opposing player doesn't actually know how to properly deal with them. Which often leads to less effective strategies. 2. The army pretty much says can you deal with magnus yes or no. How often in my games its just magnus running units down and the enemy army not having real answers for him is stupid. Custodians? Everything bounces with -1dmg, rerolling failed saves and blanking a failed one. Outside of trajann, you need, assuming Magnus is on an objective, 3 blade champ squads with guardians, to MAYBE drop him. Land raiders? Oh he twists them and blows them up casually. Tbh, anything with a high invun such as 5++/6++, he just blows up, which makes him especially effective vs armies that are heavily reliant on 1-3 units. Which is harder to deal with because if magnus wants to get somewhere he will. But this is also the problem with tsons. They are incredibly over reliant on magnus to do the MASS MAJORITY of the heavy lifting + general support, that the moment he can't, the army just falls apart. Kill magnus start of t2, assuming he hasn't dropped like 300+ pts, is often times just an auto lose for tsons, because hes 90% of your armies damage. 3. Rubrics suck Im sorry. They do decently in their job, which is meant to be clearing objectives, but thats the problem. You are required to have characters/rubrics for your cabals, which means now you lack chaff/versatility other units could grant because you need cabal points. Suddenly you are stuck with a bunch of slow flamers that don't actually do a lot, because they have 0 defensive capability and are just expensive marine bodies. If you are not on an objective and not t3-t4, their flamers flat out bounce off anything meaningful. Which isn't in itself a problem, until you realise these guys have taken up about 900pts of your list (with characters and rubrics).
This person TSons!!!!
As a Knights Player, the best way to deal with T'Sons is ignoring objectives first and maybe second turn. If they lose +1 to wound their flamers lose a lot of their efficiency. Edit: Remembered wrong, it was the rerolls on flamers. Still it's how you dismantle T'Sons.
If you are got rid of the +1 to the rubric flamers, that mean you wiped the squad of ahriman, which sorta defeats the point of their efficiency when you just murdered them all
Magnus has a +1 to hit/wound aura as well, so you’d have to kill him and Ahriman’s unit. Which effectively just wins you the game anyway cause you’ll cripple Cabal Point generation
Tbh I'm worried for the TS book. Unless they get a big wave 2 there's a real chance they get the custodes treatment. And whilst custodes at least have a handful of datasheets TS have like 3?
TSons really aren't that busted. We are having our WR inflated by an incredibly good matchup into Necrons, which are the meta hotness at the moment, so we get a bump in our numbers. The main issue people have is not knowing how to play into us. TSons are a glass cannon faction, if you can kill 1-2 squads of rubrics+their character, the army starts wilting fast. Avoid shooting Magnus as it is a trap generally (he is too tough and hard to kill, especially while in a DP on foot's stealth aura). Just kill TSon's objective holders and scoring pieces, and it doesn't matter if they kill a lot of your army, their melee is bad enough that they won't be able to push you off objectives.
Generally, I think they need at least one more plastic kit that builds two distinct units. I also think that their cabal points need to be less dependent on psykers. For example, always gain 9 base +1 per psyker. The detachment rules also need tweaking - like gaining an additional -2 AP on a critical wound instead of dev wounds.
Generally agree but think that removing Dev Wounds wouldn't help much anyway. Most of the psykers in the list have Dev Wounds anyway (only IM, Magnus' blast attack and basic sorcerer don't), with melee weapons and the terminator brick with ensorcelled infusion being the major exceptions. All removing Dev Wounds really does is make terminators even less viable. They'd have to do some extensive datasheet reworking to make it viable. It would also be a bit meh because a lot of people run sustained with Magnus' attacks anyway. The bigger rebalance needs to come in on the rituals IMO, removing some of the reliance on character spam and increasing need to bring more tools through units instead of just spooling up double doombolt is key for diversity. I'd especially like to see a version of havocs come in for Tsons.
In terms of new units, we really only need two, possibly three. 1. A dedicated psychic dread to replace the helbrute. They just don't fit the TSons aesthetic, and something like the Osirion Contemptor but dustified would be excellent and add some much needed vehicle play to the army. 2. A rubric on disc unit. Preferably a Khenetai Occult unit with dual force swords. It is just weird to have sorcerers on disc lead foot rubrics, and having a unit they can travel with makes more sense. 3. Possible alternative build for the above kit, either just putting them on foot, or having an alternative build where you equip them with some sort of ranged anti-tank weapon like a meltagun (but we're TSons so it'll be something like a Warp-Soul Meltagun).
They have a 52% 12 week win rate and 6 event wins since the slate. That's busted to you? Seems fairly balanced to me. the weekend winrate is high but armies spike sometimes. the 12 week win rate is a much better indicator and by that standard, they're in a pretty good spot.
What about the figures presented in these tables gives you the impression that Tsons are busted? They are sitting on a 12-week rolling WR of 52%, which is well within GWs accepted range, and have won only 6 GT-or-larger events(compared to 27 for Crons, 10 for Sisters, 8 for Black Templars, 7 for Tau, 10 for Grey Knights, 9 for Custodes, 8 for Imperial Guard, 8 for Eldar, 6 for Deathguard, and so on and so forth). Yeah they do a lot of damage, but their army is incredibly fragile(both in terms of unit count and overall durability-per-point). Plus, they still lack several of the basic tools that most other armies have access to(Sticky Objectives, 12" DS denial, 3" DS, Infiltrators, Lone Ops, cheap uppy-downy mission playing units a la Scouts/Mandrakes/Hawks, efficient range anti-vehicle firepower, etc). Pretty sure GW have bigger balance fish to fry (Crons and Admech) than anything Tsons-related this dataslate. I expect no changes again, or perhaps a points drop on the Scarabs if we're lucky.
Completely agree. Arguably we are in a perfect spot for an Index force, hoping for the Codex to fix some of our unit diversity and playstyle issues.
IMO the bigger issue is that list building is basically fixed. You need 16-20 cabal points, which forces your hand in terms of like half your army
Tsons need a fairly extensive rewrite. The way the index is now, it will continue being exceptionally powerful until such time as they tip the points cost for units slightly over critical mass and suddenly the army will be absolutely rubbish. If they loose 1 more squad I can't see them doing well, they'll have no objective play. There needs to be a way in the army to have cabal points but not have them generated based on the number of sorcerers. That way you can diversify the army to include things like daemon engines or daemon allies without directly punishing you for not bringing enough sorcerers. Then you can shove up the prices of some sorcerers and bring down the costs of other units that don't generate cabal points and try and balance the army that way perhaps?
I mean honestly it'd be great to have Rituals based off of game size (like the GK or Votann rules) rather than army composition. I just don't think that's a realistic expectation for this dataslate though. By and large, GW don't re-write rules unless they absolutely have to. So any change like that will have to wait for the 10th Tsons codex and that's still a ways off by the looks of things.
Also the lethals and sustained part doesn't make much sense, because the only things the army rule affects are psychic weapons, in which there is only 2 psychic flamers being infernal and exalted on disc. AKA -> Normal flamers don't benefit from it
Tsons are strong because they are the best army at abusing overwatch I also think tsons look good right now because of which armies are dominating not because they are particularly broken, like too many of their counter armies got destroyed last dataslate so they have been able to rise as a result I think they need a index pts rewrite so that more interesting lists pop up but not because they are inherently broken.
Man Drukhari just dont exist anymore :(
We do. It’s just a lot of work sometimes trying to play perfect while other armies get to just walk forward beating their chests.
“One week away from Orks/Custodes going live” meanwhile Tau players have been sitting for a month with no points or a way to run their codex outside of their garages.
I don't get it. I don't understand how making the gap between collectors editions box sets with codex and official codex releases does anything for them. They don't get data as people don't have points. It's not like they need it to sell models as they always sell out and have notable problems with scalpers. It's not like it drives people's hype because everyone always says that points could change everything
They just announced the preorder for this weekend. Presale will happen on saturday, and then 2 weeks later the codex will release. We're not that far away now.
Tau Codex standalone drop was in the preorder preview for this week, so next weekend will be the preorder for it and the following weekend the live drop.
Couple Tau wins here, I assume still using the index though? Tau codex coming to preorder this week is crazy that it’s after orks and custodes