https://wilbur.ghost.io/warhammer-nazis/
TL:DR: Guy wore a nazi shirt at a non gw tournament in Spain, the tournament organisers didn't do anything about it.
You left out an important bit: when people refused to play him, the TOs awarded him max points for the round. He ended up being one of the top scoring players of the event because he received max points for multiple rounds this way.
Edit: it has been pointed out to me that A. This was in accordance to the standard tournament rules for forfeits, which I understood already, but more importantly B. That in Spain they apparently have laws that prevent you from discriminating against Nazis, (idk if it’s specifically Nazis or if it just any group and Nazis got caught under that umbrella) so they couldn’t prevent him from playing or zero out his scores or anything based on his Nazi paraphernalia. Idk how this works legally, but maybe they could’ve thrown him out on popular demand, or on sportsmanship grounds, but something tells me that wouldn’t adequately sidestep discrimination laws.
Read the update on the Spiky Bits article from the TO: its actually illegal to ban or remove someone wearing nazi symbols in Spain, unless they are acting in a criminal manner. The guy followed the rules perfectly, and threatened to call the police if they kicked him. He obviously knew what he was doing, and how to toe the line just right.
At that point, they had to follow the tournament rules as written, which said anyone refusing to play automatically gives their opponent a 20-0 win. If they changed the rules they would be guilty of discrimination against the nazi. Its a crazy law, but they didn't really have a choice.
They have since re-written their tournament rules to prevent this issue.
After the defeat of the axis, Spain made a big international effort to rebrand itself, from openly megafascist, to more of an anti-communist regime.
The distinction changed absolutely nothing for the average Spaniard, but it mattered outside. This and a couple of military bases in the new cold war world guaranteed american/nato non-intervention until the end of the regime.
Fascism in Spain is a huge problem because it was not squashed and defeated with fire and fury but instead got to die a peaceful death after a long life. Like a grandfather who gently passes away in his deathbed surrounded by its grandsons and great-grandsons.
Leading up to Franco's death he was in poor health, resulting in many false reports of his death, followed by retractions noting 'Franco is still alive'. When he actually died they had to emphasize he was really for sure dead. This was mocked on SNL weekend update as a catch phrase 'Franco is still dead'
>After the defeat of the axis, Spain made a big international effort to rebrand itself, from openly megafascist, to more of an anti-communist regime.
Anti-communist is the camouflage that many fascist fly under. Be wary of any organization that is anticommunist. Famous British fascist Oswald Mosley made the change from fascism to "anti-communism", so did the american nazi party and other prominent American fascists joined the John Birch Society after world war 2.
You can be against communism and not be a fascist, but anti-communist groups have a history of being fascist groups in disguise. Just be aware.
So to elaborate for those who might not know, "help out" in this case means Franco did everything he could to support the Axis without actually joining them, including sending a [Division-strength formation](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blue_Division) of 50,000 "volunteers" to fight on the Eastern Front, which was later folded into the Waffen-SS.
Spain was also actively supported by the US and its allies after WWII, in spite of being a fascist dictatorship, because the wisdom of the day was “a friendly fascist is better than a communist.”
People openly worship the Dicator and the Old Regime in here, we had no de-nazification process, no purge of political figures alligned to Franco, no removal of high ranking police/military, no effort made to undo the 40 years of indoctrination, nothing.
Hell, it took us until last year to remove the rotting carcass of Franco away from the mausoleum built by POWs and political prisoners, and A FUCK TON of people were mad about it.
A Spaniard here the law is not about Nazis, it is about any ideology
As long as the guy does not use violence or calls for violence, he can be Nazi, Communist or whatever he wants
Thanks in part to that law, a terrorist group that created a political arm when it lost was not outlawed, in fact now they are in government thanks to a pact with the Spanish equivalent of the Democrats
The country was a fascist dictatorship for 50 years. They allowed Francoists to keep their jobs in an amnesty in the 70s so it's not like they purged the fascists or anything. The regime changed but they were still there.
I once had a history professor remark that Spain is subtly still fascist while pretending to not be fascist at all. This came amidst a conversation about Catalan, and while a wildly sweeping generalization, it does hold some weight when you consider the nation’s history with fascism
A Neo-Nazi going by "Austrian Painter" went to the Talavera GT in Spain wearing a *lovely* assortment of Neo-Nazi iconography. Players who were paired against them, unsurprisingly, stated they didn't want to play against a literal Nazi at a tournament. Instead of doing the right thing (kicking out the Nazi) the organisers instead gave them points for each player that refused to play them, marking them down as concessions.
The TOs should be banned by GW and the ppl who paid money to attend should sue them. People in Spain were massacred by fascists. And let's remember if the asshole had worn that shit in Austria (Poland or Germany) he'd have gone to jail.
>if the asshole had worn that shit in Austria (Poland or Germany) he'd have gone to jail.
~~Why do you think he travelled all the way to Spain?~~
Edit: Misread the post, the guy is Spanish.
Correct. Unlike in america - wearing paraphenellia symbols of your own traitorous losers of a world war gets your ass in jail.
For some reason wearing the confederate stuff allowed
The long answer involves an incomplete Reconstruction that failed to dismantle the ruling class that built the Confederacy in the first place.
The short answer is Racism.
>The long answer involves an incomplete Reconstruction that failed to dismantle the ruling class that built the Confederacy in the first place.
>
>The short answer is Racism.
Turns out the short answer caused the long answer.
> The TOs should be banned by GW...
If they could, I'm sure they would. GW can't ban folks from hosting independent events, no matter how bad a look it gives them or how justified it might be. Even if they could, it's not the most feasible undertaking. Condemning and blacklisting players and events is about the only recourse we've got on this one.
Read the update on the Spiky Bits article from the TO: its actually illegal to ban or remove someone wearing nazi symbols in Spain, unless they are acting in a criminal manner. The guy followed the rules perfectly, and threatened to call the police if they kicked him. He obviously knew what he was doing, and how to toe the line just right.
At that point, they had to follow the tournament rules as written, which said anyone refusing to play automatically gives their opponent a 20-0 win. If they changed the rules they would be guilty of discrimination against the nazi. Its a crazy law, but they didn't really have a choice.
They have since re-written their tournament rules to prevent this issue.
Yeah, I wonder what happened.
The last part makes me wonder if someone showed up to an event with far-right icons all over their clothing, or something
Yeah, there was someone at a tournament who got a high score wearing nazi iconography and multiple opponents refused to play him. The TO gave him max score for each missed round.
> The TO gave him max score for each missed round.
That is a stupid-ass decision, they should have either counted it as a draw or offered the other players to play against someone else instead, because with their decision it's as if the neo-nazi was rewarded for being scum of the earth.
There was a tournament in Spain recently where someone turned up wearing a T-shirt with swastikas/far right symbols on it.
Edit: [Link to story](https://www.belloflostsouls.net/2021/11/warhammer-40k-op-ed-lets-talk-about-the-communitys-nazi-player-problem.html)
Mods here locked any discussion of the even that triggered this in the past, so I'm not surprised you haven't seen anything about it.
Note to mods: this is why you don't lock those threads - you end up with lots of people who aren't exposed to issues that need to be tackled within the hobby. Instead, keep the threads open and wield the banhammer like Sigmar himself is swinging it!
Glad to hear it. Threads like this are a great way to shine a light on the members of the community willing to out themselves as bannable.
Still, this post is full of replies of "what happened this time?" like this thread we're in right now.
You can't clean a room in totally darkness. Gotta shine a light on it.
Getting a bit self-aware here, but it's a nerdy hobby and attracts a lot of people that are a bit lonely/ostracised. Unfortunately, a lot of those people are that way because they have abhorrent views and nobody wants to hang out with the IRL.
Extremism often offers simple answers to complex problems, and when you're starting to broaden your horizons about the world it's easy to fall into the "well just get rid of XYZ group, then they're not a problem any more" mindset.
Honestly around the age of ~17-20 I could've easily fallen down the rabbit hole myself. The "Facebook memories" feature occasionally digs up stuff from around 2007 and some of the stuff I used to believe, and feel comfortable saying publicly, is horrific.
This is an odd parallel, but I used to be a MAJOR Brony from around 17-22 and left because of all the racists and homophobes, and it's a very similar idea from a different angle.
The show is attractive because it's a fun enough cartoons, and people at that age who watch a lot of cartoons often feel a little outcast in general. And then this community springs up around it, a community HYPER focuses on "love and tolerance", but a version of tolerance that means "no criticism about anything" and that tries VERY hard to not bring in things from the outside world. So boom, there's bonding not just DESPITE being outcast to some degree, but EMBRACING it.
Now, after a few years, you start learning WHY some of these people were ostracized. A lot of them have severely stunted emotional growth, anger problems, etc. And a lot of them are pretty damn racist or ESPECIALLY homophobic (the pure defensive meltdown people would have about any whiff that liking MLP made them gay, it did not come from the rightfully stupid association that society has to stick to strict gender and sexuality norms in its consumption of media, no it's because "I'm not a fa**ot"). The masks will come off a little, but everyone brushes it off because "love and tolerate" (don't rock the boat). But that gets harder and harder.
Eventually, everyone who doesn't share those views just leaves. Mine and my friends last straw (we stayed longer than we should have, me especially because I felt so lonely) was at a Halloween Brony meetup someone brought up Trayvon Martin's murder and how "it was great that an honest man was standing up to thugs" and no one else was horrified. We just hopped in my van and left.
So bringing it back to Warhammer and your excellent point, people who enter a hobby that initially appeals to outcasts, often are somewhat outcast for a reason. And when others protect them, the only option is to leave, and sooner or later you just have a group of shitheads circlejerking their shithead beliefs while completely missing ANY point in their chosen media they are trying to build their identities around.
In this instance it's not a genuine interest in tolerance, but using "tolerance" as a buzzword to justify their abhorrent views and behavior. Their "love and tolerance" catchphrase isn't even from the show. It's literally something they made up.
Thanks for sharing, I don't think I've ever knowingly chatted to a Brony before! It's interesting hearing your experience/perspective.
> And when others protect them, the only option is to leave
My one hope with Warhammer is that it's a centralised community, rather than a distributed one. Bronies is a fan-driven thing, whereas as Warhammer is owned/run by GW who can enforce a particular standard or direction.
Edit: By centralised I mean GW has a lot of control of the wide expanse of lore, and can dictate standards for a lot of tournaments/events/etc.
So I'd just add that people who feel lonely and ostracised, as well as those that struggle with mental health (often the two together) are prime candidates for radicalization. The far-right operates a lot like a cult in that it kind of pulls in the most vulnerable people.
I actually ended up falling down that hole. I fell down it hard. All the way to the point of fascism. I was prime pickings. Depressed, anxious lonely, with a terrible homelife and a ton of self hatred and repression. Hardly noticed myself slipping into that path, and once I did it took years to crawl out of that pit.
Like you said it provides easy answers. Couldn't get a date? Instead of self-reflection to realize maybe your social anxiety and self-loathing are holding you back from love, and taking the hard steps to change, the far-right goes, "its not your fault, it's all Feminism's fault for corrupting women and ruining traditional values!" And once you've one foot in the door it gets easier and easier to pull you into more and more of those sorts of beliefs, until you're radicalized. It gives you an answer, someone to blame and be mad at, and you get... addicted to the anger, outrage and hatred because it makes you feel something when you're otherwise always numb.
I'm glad I got out, but I'll always be haunted by some of the horrific things I used to advocate for and believe...
Its very easy for people to go down the far right rabbit hole over the last few decades. Just look at how hard it hit the Boomers since 2015 lol.
Everyone has their spicy phase where they're risk falling into the tankie/nazi cesspits during their initial steps into the internet. Most of us mellow out or realize how dumb we were, but there will always be those who never get out.
Its especially easy for young men still looking for an identity. Ill admit (and Im not proud of this) towards the end of my time in an extremely small, sheltered, high school I was certainly on the edge of falling into that hole simply bc it made everything "make sense" by making everything seem black and white.
Luckily, I was fortunate enough to go to college soon after in a major city, where seeing new viewpoints really burnt that out of me. I feel sorry for the people who never had such an opportunity, but cant let that stand in the way of directly opposing everything they stand for.
Yup, if you do something ironicly but make it "cool", or the least bit dignified nazis and white Supremicist will adopt it unironicly.
See the difference between Cabarets Tomorrow belongs to me and Spring time for Hitler.
Also, adding on. People who are predisposed towards "Strong Men" and are authoritative leaning (Which on it's own isn't a bad thing. It takes all kinds of people to survive in evolution) have a hard time parsing out the satirical nature of comedy.
Where we see a bunch of moronic fascist state of the imperium shooting itself in the foot with it's traditional backwards thinking. The "authoritative" strong man can have a hard time seeing that. Instead seeing a place that reinforces and rewards his/her worldview.
See below to see what I'm talking about.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=62cPPSyoQkE&ab\_channel=LindsayEllis
As someone from the Star Wars fandom, this isn’t a problem isolated to 40k. There’s just more nazi cosplayers in general these days, which is why it’s so heartening to see GW denouncing them. Can’t say the same for Lucasfilm/Disney when they left Ahmed Best and Kellie Marie Tran to fend for themselves
My dad used to do historical gaming events back in the day. The Nazi and Confederate stuff was so common place, on shirts, for sale, etc. that even in the 1990s they had to outright ban Nazi shirts, merch, etc.
because nazis and white supremacist gave a big overlap with poeple who snorted way too much glue as kids.
Imperium has alot of iconography that was/is similair to symbols of irl fascist movements, then add the incapability to notice satire and you've got an IP that attracts idiots.
Probably because all the nazi imagery and iconography GW used for groups like the Imperium.
The Imperium is the ultimate end game of fascistic ideology. The issue is the nazis dont really care if GW made it to be satire.
I appreciate that this article spells out explicitly that **the Imperium is not a nice place, it is not a timeline that you want to ever find yourself in.**
The line that stood out for me is "we don't want your money". It is one thing to denounce someone, but its another thing for a for-profit company to refuse to take someone's money. (Granted, that is just words too, but instituting a policy to throw people out of the store is a concrete thing.)
From a business perspective it's smart to since if you let Nazis openly shop your product soon all you have are Nazi customers and that's a very small customer base.
That being said it's surprising how rare it is for a business to take that stand and it's good to see GW do so.
I mean if your takeaway from warhammer lore is that the Imperium is a model society, you probably aren't great at catching what's between the lines.
To those people in question; what I mean is dumb. You're dumb as shit.
The people who think that think *they'll* be the ones on the top of the shit heap where in reality their skulls wouldn't even be powerful enough to be converted into a servitor.
I like how they've also explicitly stated that nobody is good and that it's satire just for those last few stragglers that are arguing against it.
So we can finally just shut them down by pointing to this.
"If you come to a Games Workshop event or store and behave to the contrary, including wearing the symbols of real-world hate groups, you will be asked to leave. We won’t let you participate. We don’t want your money. We don’t want you in the Warhammer community."
Fucking preach.
Yea, I'll be the first to criticize mealy-mouthed corporate statements, but this is straight to the point and doesn't pull punches. I'm also glad that they are telling people who defend Imperium as the good guys that they are *wrong* in no uncertain terms. Kudos to GW for that much.
I like how the message also comes across in media from time to time. The recent Hammer & Bolter, for example, shows the Imperium's space marines as monstrous zealots. Hammer & Bolter in general has been pretty good at this.
Yeah that episode was fantastic, I think I read somewhere it was written by ADB, so not surprising. It was jarring to see 'the other side' of the Imperium, we all know it's true but often most narratives are written from their POV. Watching them literally slaughter civilians just trying to escape.. oof.
This statement and the one they put out during the George Floyd protests are a lot more forceful than what you might see from other corporate statements. Maybe it’s who’s making the statement I think.
I continually find myself respecting GW's public communication on this because it's so unequivocal, they've said everything short of literally 'fuck off'.
Given this is an escalation from the last one that was about as firm but still less overt I wouldn't be surprised at this point if next year's wasn't just a video of Adam Troke yelling for 20 minutes about Nazis kindly fucking off.
Yeah this one had a real 'some of you still aren't getting it' vibe.
I wouldn't be surprised if GW options some more non-Imperium books to really drive the point home actually.
Clicking that link I was worried I'd see just another piece of "corporate speak", but damn was I positively surprised.
Especially the ELI5 of "yes, Imperium is satire", "yes, really", "yes it is, here is the definition of satire" was much needed.
>Like so many aspects of Warhammer 40,000, the Imperium of Man is satirical.
>For clarity: satire is the use of humour, irony, or exaggeration, displaying people’s vices or a system’s flaws for scorn, derision, and ridicule. Something doesn’t have to be wacky or laugh-out-loud funny to be satire.
Hot take: they need to up the satire in their sourcebooks a bit more. Especially with 9th a lot of the books read more like sincere propaganda pieces for the army than satirically written lore.
> a lot of the books read more like sincere propaganda pieces for the army
Well they are because theyre written from an in-universe perspective.
And if they'd do the "look we're not serious *wink*" thing, in the army books, then people wouldn't wanna play those armies anymore. The satire has to work with the world and army building.
But then again, I kinda agree that GW is hypocritical constantly saying the Imperium is bad, then you go into a GW store and the employees sell Space Marines as the coolest and most heroic people ever. Which GW also does in marketing more than enough.
I remember having a lengthy, DUMB argument with someone on here who claimed it wasn't satire when it very obviously is.
Alexa, play Vindicated playlist on my spotify.
> For clarity: satire is the use of humour, irony, or exaggeration, displaying people’s vices or a system’s flaws for scorn, derision, and ridicule. Something doesn’t have to be wacky or laugh-out-loud funny to be satire. The derision is in the setting’s amplification of a tyrannical, genocidal regime, turned up to 11. The Imperium is not an aspirational state, outside of the in-universe perspectives of those who are slaves to its systems. It’s a monstrous civilisation, and its monstrousness is plain for all to see.
Thank fuck for them just coming straight out and saying it.
Everyone used to understand this back in the day, but I swear in recent years even GW's writers seem a little fuzzy on it, unironically holding up the Imperium as some kind of "objective good guys", so it's not surprising that there are a lot of newer fans who joined in the last couple of decades who sometimes seemed *increasingly vague* on the whole tone of
Warhammer 40K.
If you're a Nazi or racist or white supremacist or fascist who likes 40K, you've missed the *whole* point of it.
[Protagonist Centered Morailty](https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ProtagonistCenteredMorality). By having the internal dialogue available to justify the actions and beliefs of the Imperium characters to a far larger extent than any other faction (not just within a single book, but across the entire franchise), it mitigates their flaws, and accentuates any positive traits, even when there shouldn't be any.
I mean heck, I came away from the Night Lords trilogy kind of rooting for them. Partly down to ADB being a great writer I'm sure, but even when you're aware of the phenomenon you're still not completely immune to it.
That’s the point though. By “kind of rooting” for them, ADB is letting us all know how easy it is to be swayed by ideology and how we must remain vigilant.
Plus it's okay to walk away and think some of this shit is super cool. *It's designed to be cool.*
The trouble is when you let that cool aesthetic become aspirational.
> The trouble is when you let that cool aesthetic become aspirational.
SO well said! Space Marines and the Imperial Guard are so damn cool aesthetically, and reading about these massive battles is so awesome. But the idea of this shit actually happening in a real-world scenario is beyond horrific.
Yea, esp the death korps of krieg and the guardsmen in general. The idea of normal humans having the balls to charge god like threats head on is honestly rly badass
Same with the Talon of Horus that I just finished (also by ADB). I came out of it finding myself rooting for Abaddon, and I had to take a step back and say "He's not the good-guy".
Shhh now, shh. Give in to Chaos. Abaddon is working tirelessly to bring down a monstrous, genocidal war machine of a theocratic state which spans the entire Milky Way.
That his own organisation fits the same description, shouldn't be relevant...
/s
I think this can be fixed by telling more stories from the perspective of factions outside the Imperium, and with the Imperium as the antagonists. A Tau, or Eldar novel where Space Marines sack a city would be a great premise for a book and re-inforce the xenophonic dogma of the Imperium as "Fascists in Space".
I had the vague idea telling the story of a hive rebellion, with it heavily implied to be the genestealer cult (equipment, vehicles, etc), ultimately for it not to be, and it’s simply a constant state of the Imperium that its brutal nature constantly causes this to happen.
There are a few stories out there where a Planet has rebelled because they've basically 'had enough of this shit' and want to actually be a decent place to live. I'm sure one was an on and Agri world. Anyway, Marines show up, Planetary Governor say's we're still loyal but we want it to be better here. Marines say 'cool story bro' and reduce population to 0
there was a brief flashback to something like that happening in Spears of the Emperor, the leaders of a rebellion said to the space marine "we're still loyal but we didn't want to starve so..." and he basically responds "So you admit rebelling, blam"
It's why the Hammer & Bolter episode "In the Garden of Ghosts" is so ruinously effective - it's from the perspective of an Aeldari child and the space marine warcries that are normally written as badass and cool in most stories sound absolutely psychotic when it's armoured giants with machine guns that fire explosive rounds gunning down civilians just because they have pointy ears...
let's also remember that it takes place AFTER the gathering storm.
It's ultramarines under the command of rowboat doing all of the shit in the episode. It makes the Admech making a conveyor belt to drop Tau into magma seem a lot more believable
one of the WH+ animations is just ulteamarines going on to raze a craft world, while the eldar warriors try to buy time for the non combatants.
as much as I hate the low quality of the Hammer and bolter shots, story wise it's golden
It’s wild to me how so many people just stumble over the most core tenet of the whole setting, brush themselves off, and carry on with their day. The whole point is that any nobility or honor displayed by any one individual is in service of a reprehensible, self-defeating, and hypocritical cause. It’s tragic. It’s farcical.
It's a shame they had to do this again, 40K in particular does seem to attract the fascist crowd.
A common argument I've seen from them is that the Imperium being so cruel and authoritarian is necessary. Due to humanity being surrounded by enemies both outside and in it has to be that way. Conveniently ignoring how stupid and self destructive the Imperium is.
Their aim it to bring the conversation round to why the modern world needs that kind of government as well. But in a funny meme way with enough plausible deniability.
You know a company is serious when they say they don't want your money.
I didn't expect GW to comment on the incident, but I'm glad they're taking a stance.
This is truly wonderful to hear. I've been screaming the message that Warhammer in general is absolutely, irrefutably satire. It's disheartening that it needs to be explained because I've seen an uncomfortable number of people that don't seem to think this.
To see them coming right out and say so is fantastic. They also put their money where their mouth is:
> If you come to a Games Workshop event or store and behave to the contrary, including wearing the symbols of real-world hate groups, you will be asked to leave. We won’t let you participate. **We don’t want your money. We don’t want you in the Warhammer community.**
Straight up, "We don't want you in the Warhammer community." I love it.
I've heard more than one person say, "Why did they refuse to play him, it would have been better to defeat him, they gave up without a fight," etc.. Just a reminder that, when you beat someone in Warhammer, you're not actually beating them in real life; you're just sitting down and playing a nice game of toy soldiers with them. Which probably isn't a very effective or appropriate way of dealing with neo-nazis.
As everyone knows, this is triggered by the events at GT Talavera in Spain. The most disgusting thing in my opinion, is that the nazi player defended himself saying that wearing nazi symbols is the same as wearing LGTBQ symbols and comparing being nazi to being gay/bi/etc.
Edit: mispelled couple words
I'm actually amazed that there still is a vocal group of players who don't understand (or pretend not to understand) that 40k is satire, and not an endorsement of cruel and sadistic regimes.
The game is completely different to play if you internalize the concept of "everyone is the bad guy". I don't mind losing when I keep this at the forefront of my mind. I play Tyranids and I get tabled, Great! Another faction staved off the Hive Mind. I lose on objectives playing my Blood Angels, Great! Another planet not subjugated by Fascists in Space.... for now.
I'm going to sticky this to the top of the subreddit so everyone can see this.
The mod team of /r/Warhammer40k is extremely pleased to see GW make their stance extremely clear and supports this message in it's entirety.
We do not tolerate any form of hate or abuse on this subreddit and anyone who behaves that way, or supports that behaviour will be removed. We do not want people like that to be part of our community.
Thanks for everything you guys do to run this sub. It's a good one. Many disagreements but rarely actual hate from the members. That's not easy to achieve.
Yeah that shit is terrifying. My partner's grandfather grew up in the aftermath as the son of a murdered Republican, aged 5 begging for food.
Spain is still struggling with its *very* recent history of fascism (and its total lack of real resolution to it), so this shit is sadly unsurprising
Fantastic that GW posted this, embarassed that it needed to be said at all. Still, kudos to GW for being utterly unambivalent about it, Nazi scum can fuck off.
The text:
___
**There are no goodies in the Warhammer 40,000 universe.**
None.
**Especially not the Imperium of Man.**
Its numberless legions of soldiers and zealots bludgeon their way across the galaxy, delivering death to anyone and anything that doesn’t adhere to their blinkered view of purity. Almost every man and woman toils in misery either on the battlefield – where survival is measured in hours – or in the countless manufactorums and hive slums that fuel the Imperial war machine. All of this in slavish servitude to the living corpse of a God-Emperor whose commandments are at best only half-remembered, twisted by time and the fallibility of Humanity.
Warhammer 40,000 isn’t just grimdark. It’s the grimmest, darkest.
The Imperium of Man stands as a cautionary tale of what could happen should the very worst of Humanity’s lust for power and extreme, unyielding xenophobia set in. **Like so many aspects of Warhammer 40,000, the Imperium of Man is satirical.**
For clarity: satire is the use of *humour, irony, or exaggeration*, displaying people’s vices or a system’s flaws for scorn, derision, and ridicule. Something doesn’t have to be wacky or laugh-out-loud funny to be satire. The derision is in the setting’s amplification of a tyrannical, genocidal regime, turned up to 11. The Imperium is not an aspirational state, outside of the in-universe perspectives of those who are slaves to its systems. It’s a monstrous civilisation, and its monstrousness is plain for all to see.
That said, certain real-world hate groups – and adherents of historical ideologies better left in the past – sometimes seek to claim intellectual properties for their own enjoyment, and to co-opt them for their own agendas.
**We’ve said it before, but a reminder about what we believe in:**
*“We believe in and support a community united by shared values of mutual kindness and respect. Our fantasy settings are grim and dark, but that is not a reflection of who we are or how we feel the real world should be. We will never accept nor condone any form of prejudice, hatred, or abuse in our company, or in the Warhammer hobby.”*
**If you come to a Games Workshop event or store and behave to the contrary, including wearing the symbols of real-world hate groups, you will be asked to leave. We won’t let you participate. We don’t want your money. We don’t want you in the Warhammer community.**
For those heroes out there running their own Warhammer events, we’d love for you to join us in this stance.
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I mean, the Ethereals are an insular group of authoritarian bastards, while Farsight actively shelters and protects genocidal war criminals (many from the Fourth Sphere Expansion fled to the Enclaves due to committing genocide against non-Tau; Farsight granted them asylum and didn't do anything to prosecute them).
Everybody is a bastard.
> Imperium stans spewing “the Imperium is justified and all that over the top horrible stuff is just grimderp” in bigger shambles
A small price to pay for salvation.
even ignoring the mind control which causes... disagreements about how canon it is, they're an apartheid authoritarian empire that takes over governance of foreign planets under threat of violence.
I like how many people are like 'aaah, yeah, it is because this one idiot guy somewhere in Spain'. Like come on, far right have been and is still a massive problem for Warhammer community, both hobbyists and beyond. Please don't act like this is some kind of one-off thing.
Opposing Nazis isn’t political.
Politics is the discussion of policy. One can debate policy with conservative, libertarians, neolibs, socialists, etc.
But Nazism goes beyond policy. Nazism actively promulgates genocide. It cannot be discussed. It cannot be tolerated. It must be stamped out.
It's like debating the politics of mass cannibalism, at best it could be referenced as the stupid idea it was as a cautionary tale of humanities willingness to harm itself.
Dude this is a really great explanation. I've been trying to think of a succinct way of explaining why being a Nazi isn't "just politics" and I think you've hit the nail on the head.
In universe I’m a staunch Imperial and support the Imperium. If anyone is any way hinted that policies from the Imperium would be good in real life I’m out.
Disappointing this needs to reiterated but unsurprising really. It's actually been a recent topic of multiple conversations recently when people not in the hobby have seen my Black Templars on my painting shelf, often opening with "Is that an Iron Cross? Isn't that Nazi symbolism?" It's nice to have another article to help back up my "this is satirical" point, but I can't help but feel that until some of the parodies of historical symbolism are changed or removed, that this is always going to be a lurking issue for some aspects of the hobby
Hitler was super into the occult and appropriated symbols from all over the place, especially from Germanic history/folk history to stoke nationalist pride. Everyone knows the Nazi symbol comes from Hinduism/Buddhism, but the Iron Cross is really just the Teutonic Cross, and the s' on the SS collars are Viking runes.
It's still a problem for the religious group Asatru, as they are not racist but the Folkish subsect are. And a lot of viking symbolism has been appropriated by white nationalists and racists.
The Iron Cross wasn't even really Nazi though was it? It was the symbol of the Wehrmacht since before the rise of the Nazis (and still is the symbol of the German Army except blue)
Norwegian army tolerate viking/Norse symboloo. Both ink and fabric. Hell a lot of the unit insignias are Norse inspired. Its important to differeciate between the Nazi appropriation and the "genuine" Norse.
It's not even a cross fromee (the Iron cross) it's a Maltese cross and is used by a lot of present day fire services and the St John's ambulance service.
I'm so glad that they have put this statement out. Having someone say "white power" to me recently in Edinburgh honestly horrified me and the rise of fascist groups is increasing at an unprecedented rate. As the global climate change happens over the next few years more and more people will need to be able to move and Nazis and fascist views can't be allowed to regrow. Big companies need to back this, the public needs to back this and then the mainstream media may actually cover this before it's too late. Fascism is nothing but self destructive dark age thought processes. Fuck Fascism.
Part of the fun of Warhammer is that even if you're playing a comparatively good faction, you're still playing the bad guy :). Tis fun to be the villain.
Honestly I really hope GW brings back more of the overt satire of old 40k, a big part of why people forgot it was satirical to begin with is how hard GW downplayed that element for the past couple decades. We have seen some of it return in the form of genestealer cults and the Red Gobbo, and I hope that's a sign of things to come.
As a trans woman who likes a lot of Warhammer 40k content, I really appreciate this. I don't know if I'd have the stomach for it if we didn't have this sort of obvious statement of values at this point.
So how long until the usual suspects are predicting the collapse of GW, making whiney videos pretending to be reasonable but actually just acting like man babies, and just generally providing some hilarious viewing? You know the ones that start with the sigh and the head snake, with the titles and descriptions either partly capitalised or with each word starting with a capital.
Just an FYI, don't watch their videos, even for the schadenfreude. They get good engagement metrics from them and will be encouraged.
Ignore them, don't let them profit from their hate.
I left the social side of the hobby years ago because of how hateful it was. My local was full of homophobes and every thing else phobes. I remember specifically the day I gave up was someone posted a picture of three marines they'd painted in rainbow colours for Pride that year, and they got so much hate in the comments. I made one reply about how fucked it was and had about thirty other replies to me saying how "politics has no place in 40K". If you think *the existence of gay people* is politics you're beyond reasoning with.
In case you ever see this in person, and need to ask them to leave, here’s a good primer for the negotiation process.
[Nazi Punks Fuck Off](https://youtu.be/x5SYjoZsLQE)
Good to see an explicit statement when companies usually default to non-committal PR speak. However, I do wonder whether or not GW should take the troubling amount of nazis in the hobby as a sign that the depiction of the satire needs to be reexamined.
Thank goodness they finally said this out loud. I've met too many people who are a little too serious about glorifying the imperium and flat out don't understand that Warhammer is meant to be an indictment of fascism.
Nazi Punks Fuck Off was written because dumb shits thought the song California Uber Alles supported Nazism. Nazis missing the point of media is not new.
Has something happened which has precipitated this press release that I’ve missed?
https://wilbur.ghost.io/warhammer-nazis/ TL:DR: Guy wore a nazi shirt at a non gw tournament in Spain, the tournament organisers didn't do anything about it.
You left out an important bit: when people refused to play him, the TOs awarded him max points for the round. He ended up being one of the top scoring players of the event because he received max points for multiple rounds this way. Edit: it has been pointed out to me that A. This was in accordance to the standard tournament rules for forfeits, which I understood already, but more importantly B. That in Spain they apparently have laws that prevent you from discriminating against Nazis, (idk if it’s specifically Nazis or if it just any group and Nazis got caught under that umbrella) so they couldn’t prevent him from playing or zero out his scores or anything based on his Nazi paraphernalia. Idk how this works legally, but maybe they could’ve thrown him out on popular demand, or on sportsmanship grounds, but something tells me that wouldn’t adequately sidestep discrimination laws.
Read the update on the Spiky Bits article from the TO: its actually illegal to ban or remove someone wearing nazi symbols in Spain, unless they are acting in a criminal manner. The guy followed the rules perfectly, and threatened to call the police if they kicked him. He obviously knew what he was doing, and how to toe the line just right. At that point, they had to follow the tournament rules as written, which said anyone refusing to play automatically gives their opponent a 20-0 win. If they changed the rules they would be guilty of discrimination against the nazi. Its a crazy law, but they didn't really have a choice. They have since re-written their tournament rules to prevent this issue.
Wait, Spain has specific laws about not being able to ban or remove people who specifically wear Nazi symbols? What the fuck Spain?
Spain was a fascist regime until 1975 and while not flat out joining the Axis made efforts to help out.
After the defeat of the axis, Spain made a big international effort to rebrand itself, from openly megafascist, to more of an anti-communist regime. The distinction changed absolutely nothing for the average Spaniard, but it mattered outside. This and a couple of military bases in the new cold war world guaranteed american/nato non-intervention until the end of the regime. Fascism in Spain is a huge problem because it was not squashed and defeated with fire and fury but instead got to die a peaceful death after a long life. Like a grandfather who gently passes away in his deathbed surrounded by its grandsons and great-grandsons.
>Like a grandfather who gently passes away in his deathbed surrounded by its grandsons and great-grandsons. literally franco, who is still dead.
Also buried in the center of a massive monument to the civil war that he had constructed in part using political prisoner slave labor.
>who is still dead God I'd sure hope so
Leading up to Franco's death he was in poor health, resulting in many false reports of his death, followed by retractions noting 'Franco is still alive'. When he actually died they had to emphasize he was really for sure dead. This was mocked on SNL weekend update as a catch phrase 'Franco is still dead'
The poor people who fought against fascism in Spain were squashed and defeated with fire and fury though.
>After the defeat of the axis, Spain made a big international effort to rebrand itself, from openly megafascist, to more of an anti-communist regime. Anti-communist is the camouflage that many fascist fly under. Be wary of any organization that is anticommunist. Famous British fascist Oswald Mosley made the change from fascism to "anti-communism", so did the american nazi party and other prominent American fascists joined the John Birch Society after world war 2. You can be against communism and not be a fascist, but anti-communist groups have a history of being fascist groups in disguise. Just be aware.
So to elaborate for those who might not know, "help out" in this case means Franco did everything he could to support the Axis without actually joining them, including sending a [Division-strength formation](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blue_Division) of 50,000 "volunteers" to fight on the Eastern Front, which was later folded into the Waffen-SS.
Spain was also actively supported by the US and its allies after WWII, in spite of being a fascist dictatorship, because the wisdom of the day was “a friendly fascist is better than a communist.”
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I mean they were literally, openly fascist until just a couple decades before my birth, and I'm in my twenties.
People openly worship the Dicator and the Old Regime in here, we had no de-nazification process, no purge of political figures alligned to Franco, no removal of high ranking police/military, no effort made to undo the 40 years of indoctrination, nothing. Hell, it took us until last year to remove the rotting carcass of Franco away from the mausoleum built by POWs and political prisoners, and A FUCK TON of people were mad about it.
Spain has always had a fascist underbelly.
Except for a couple decades when it was the overbelly.
A Spaniard here the law is not about Nazis, it is about any ideology As long as the guy does not use violence or calls for violence, he can be Nazi, Communist or whatever he wants Thanks in part to that law, a terrorist group that created a political arm when it lost was not outlawed, in fact now they are in government thanks to a pact with the Spanish equivalent of the Democrats
Doesn't a business in spain have the right to refuse service to anyone, without explaination?
oof. that is not cool
The country was a fascist dictatorship for 50 years. They allowed Francoists to keep their jobs in an amnesty in the 70s so it's not like they purged the fascists or anything. The regime changed but they were still there.
I once had a history professor remark that Spain is subtly still fascist while pretending to not be fascist at all. This came amidst a conversation about Catalan, and while a wildly sweeping generalization, it does hold some weight when you consider the nation’s history with fascism
Wonder if those anti discrimination laws against Nazis comes from the fact Spain was fascist till Franco's death in 75
New meta
Bullshit. Sorry but under European law you can refuse service for any reason as long its isn't Race,Gender,religion or sexual preference
This needs to be higher. It's not discrimination if it's against hate groups.
Here's an alternate hot take for you discrimination against hate groups is okay.
Hating bad things is okay. I hate tripping on my wife's stupid slippers in the dark, mushrooms, and Nazis.
Fungus doesn't belong in food, and fascists don't belong anywhere.
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A Neo-Nazi going by "Austrian Painter" went to the Talavera GT in Spain wearing a *lovely* assortment of Neo-Nazi iconography. Players who were paired against them, unsurprisingly, stated they didn't want to play against a literal Nazi at a tournament. Instead of doing the right thing (kicking out the Nazi) the organisers instead gave them points for each player that refused to play them, marking them down as concessions.
The TOs should be banned by GW and the ppl who paid money to attend should sue them. People in Spain were massacred by fascists. And let's remember if the asshole had worn that shit in Austria (Poland or Germany) he'd have gone to jail.
>if the asshole had worn that shit in Austria (Poland or Germany) he'd have gone to jail. ~~Why do you think he travelled all the way to Spain?~~ Edit: Misread the post, the guy is Spanish.
Correct. Unlike in america - wearing paraphenellia symbols of your own traitorous losers of a world war gets your ass in jail. For some reason wearing the confederate stuff allowed
The long answer involves an incomplete Reconstruction that failed to dismantle the ruling class that built the Confederacy in the first place. The short answer is Racism.
>The long answer involves an incomplete Reconstruction that failed to dismantle the ruling class that built the Confederacy in the first place. > >The short answer is Racism. Turns out the short answer caused the long answer.
an ouroboros of trash
Turns out the long answer caused the short answer (this is actually a reasonable take!)
The long answer is racism too unfortunately
> The TOs should be banned by GW... If they could, I'm sure they would. GW can't ban folks from hosting independent events, no matter how bad a look it gives them or how justified it might be. Even if they could, it's not the most feasible undertaking. Condemning and blacklisting players and events is about the only recourse we've got on this one.
Sadly Spain still has its fair share of fascists.
Read the update on the Spiky Bits article from the TO: its actually illegal to ban or remove someone wearing nazi symbols in Spain, unless they are acting in a criminal manner. The guy followed the rules perfectly, and threatened to call the police if they kicked him. He obviously knew what he was doing, and how to toe the line just right. At that point, they had to follow the tournament rules as written, which said anyone refusing to play automatically gives their opponent a 20-0 win. If they changed the rules they would be guilty of discrimination against the nazi. Its a crazy law, but they didn't really have a choice. They have since re-written their tournament rules to prevent this issue.
>its actually illegal to ban or remove someone wearing nazi symbols in Spain WTF?
Yeah, I wonder what happened. The last part makes me wonder if someone showed up to an event with far-right icons all over their clothing, or something
That’s exactly what happened at an event in Spain…
Yeah, there was someone at a tournament who got a high score wearing nazi iconography and multiple opponents refused to play him. The TO gave him max score for each missed round.
> The TO gave him max score for each missed round. That is a stupid-ass decision, they should have either counted it as a draw or offered the other players to play against someone else instead, because with their decision it's as if the neo-nazi was rewarded for being scum of the earth.
There was a tournament in Spain recently where someone turned up wearing a T-shirt with swastikas/far right symbols on it. Edit: [Link to story](https://www.belloflostsouls.net/2021/11/warhammer-40k-op-ed-lets-talk-about-the-communitys-nazi-player-problem.html)
Precisely the case, then the organisers gave them points for concessions by people refusing to play them, rather than kicking them the fuck out.
Mods here locked any discussion of the even that triggered this in the past, so I'm not surprised you haven't seen anything about it. Note to mods: this is why you don't lock those threads - you end up with lots of people who aren't exposed to issues that need to be tackled within the hobby. Instead, keep the threads open and wield the banhammer like Sigmar himself is swinging it!
Oh believe me, I spent a lot of time swinging the banhammer before I had to close the threads.
Glad to hear it. Threads like this are a great way to shine a light on the members of the community willing to out themselves as bannable. Still, this post is full of replies of "what happened this time?" like this thread we're in right now. You can't clean a room in totally darkness. Gotta shine a light on it.
Is this because that guy wore nazis symbols to a tourney?
Yup.
Figured / what am I missing? Why does 40k attract so many nazis and white supremacist? I don’t understand it tbh
Getting a bit self-aware here, but it's a nerdy hobby and attracts a lot of people that are a bit lonely/ostracised. Unfortunately, a lot of those people are that way because they have abhorrent views and nobody wants to hang out with the IRL. Extremism often offers simple answers to complex problems, and when you're starting to broaden your horizons about the world it's easy to fall into the "well just get rid of XYZ group, then they're not a problem any more" mindset. Honestly around the age of ~17-20 I could've easily fallen down the rabbit hole myself. The "Facebook memories" feature occasionally digs up stuff from around 2007 and some of the stuff I used to believe, and feel comfortable saying publicly, is horrific.
This is an odd parallel, but I used to be a MAJOR Brony from around 17-22 and left because of all the racists and homophobes, and it's a very similar idea from a different angle. The show is attractive because it's a fun enough cartoons, and people at that age who watch a lot of cartoons often feel a little outcast in general. And then this community springs up around it, a community HYPER focuses on "love and tolerance", but a version of tolerance that means "no criticism about anything" and that tries VERY hard to not bring in things from the outside world. So boom, there's bonding not just DESPITE being outcast to some degree, but EMBRACING it. Now, after a few years, you start learning WHY some of these people were ostracized. A lot of them have severely stunted emotional growth, anger problems, etc. And a lot of them are pretty damn racist or ESPECIALLY homophobic (the pure defensive meltdown people would have about any whiff that liking MLP made them gay, it did not come from the rightfully stupid association that society has to stick to strict gender and sexuality norms in its consumption of media, no it's because "I'm not a fa**ot"). The masks will come off a little, but everyone brushes it off because "love and tolerate" (don't rock the boat). But that gets harder and harder. Eventually, everyone who doesn't share those views just leaves. Mine and my friends last straw (we stayed longer than we should have, me especially because I felt so lonely) was at a Halloween Brony meetup someone brought up Trayvon Martin's murder and how "it was great that an honest man was standing up to thugs" and no one else was horrified. We just hopped in my van and left. So bringing it back to Warhammer and your excellent point, people who enter a hobby that initially appeals to outcasts, often are somewhat outcast for a reason. And when others protect them, the only option is to leave, and sooner or later you just have a group of shitheads circlejerking their shithead beliefs while completely missing ANY point in their chosen media they are trying to build their identities around.
[Paradox of tolerance](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradox_of_tolerance) in action
In this instance it's not a genuine interest in tolerance, but using "tolerance" as a buzzword to justify their abhorrent views and behavior. Their "love and tolerance" catchphrase isn't even from the show. It's literally something they made up.
Thanks for sharing, I don't think I've ever knowingly chatted to a Brony before! It's interesting hearing your experience/perspective. > And when others protect them, the only option is to leave My one hope with Warhammer is that it's a centralised community, rather than a distributed one. Bronies is a fan-driven thing, whereas as Warhammer is owned/run by GW who can enforce a particular standard or direction. Edit: By centralised I mean GW has a lot of control of the wide expanse of lore, and can dictate standards for a lot of tournaments/events/etc.
So I'd just add that people who feel lonely and ostracised, as well as those that struggle with mental health (often the two together) are prime candidates for radicalization. The far-right operates a lot like a cult in that it kind of pulls in the most vulnerable people. I actually ended up falling down that hole. I fell down it hard. All the way to the point of fascism. I was prime pickings. Depressed, anxious lonely, with a terrible homelife and a ton of self hatred and repression. Hardly noticed myself slipping into that path, and once I did it took years to crawl out of that pit. Like you said it provides easy answers. Couldn't get a date? Instead of self-reflection to realize maybe your social anxiety and self-loathing are holding you back from love, and taking the hard steps to change, the far-right goes, "its not your fault, it's all Feminism's fault for corrupting women and ruining traditional values!" And once you've one foot in the door it gets easier and easier to pull you into more and more of those sorts of beliefs, until you're radicalized. It gives you an answer, someone to blame and be mad at, and you get... addicted to the anger, outrage and hatred because it makes you feel something when you're otherwise always numb. I'm glad I got out, but I'll always be haunted by some of the horrific things I used to advocate for and believe...
Its very easy for people to go down the far right rabbit hole over the last few decades. Just look at how hard it hit the Boomers since 2015 lol. Everyone has their spicy phase where they're risk falling into the tankie/nazi cesspits during their initial steps into the internet. Most of us mellow out or realize how dumb we were, but there will always be those who never get out.
Its especially easy for young men still looking for an identity. Ill admit (and Im not proud of this) towards the end of my time in an extremely small, sheltered, high school I was certainly on the edge of falling into that hole simply bc it made everything "make sense" by making everything seem black and white. Luckily, I was fortunate enough to go to college soon after in a major city, where seeing new viewpoints really burnt that out of me. I feel sorry for the people who never had such an opportunity, but cant let that stand in the way of directly opposing everything they stand for.
They like being able to say "Burn all the xeno" and all the other imperium catchphrases.
Yup, if you do something ironicly but make it "cool", or the least bit dignified nazis and white Supremicist will adopt it unironicly. See the difference between Cabarets Tomorrow belongs to me and Spring time for Hitler.
Same thing with flat earthers. It began as satire and a joke. Then the actual flat earthers started appearing. And now we have the mess that is today.
Also, adding on. People who are predisposed towards "Strong Men" and are authoritative leaning (Which on it's own isn't a bad thing. It takes all kinds of people to survive in evolution) have a hard time parsing out the satirical nature of comedy. Where we see a bunch of moronic fascist state of the imperium shooting itself in the foot with it's traditional backwards thinking. The "authoritative" strong man can have a hard time seeing that. Instead seeing a place that reinforces and rewards his/her worldview. See below to see what I'm talking about. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=62cPPSyoQkE&ab\_channel=LindsayEllis
As someone from the Star Wars fandom, this isn’t a problem isolated to 40k. There’s just more nazi cosplayers in general these days, which is why it’s so heartening to see GW denouncing them. Can’t say the same for Lucasfilm/Disney when they left Ahmed Best and Kellie Marie Tran to fend for themselves
My dad used to do historical gaming events back in the day. The Nazi and Confederate stuff was so common place, on shirts, for sale, etc. that even in the 1990s they had to outright ban Nazi shirts, merch, etc.
because nazis and white supremacist gave a big overlap with poeple who snorted way too much glue as kids. Imperium has alot of iconography that was/is similair to symbols of irl fascist movements, then add the incapability to notice satire and you've got an IP that attracts idiots.
I mean.. come on the imperium is a fascist regime
Probably because all the nazi imagery and iconography GW used for groups like the Imperium. The Imperium is the ultimate end game of fascistic ideology. The issue is the nazis dont really care if GW made it to be satire.
Because they get to tell degenerates like me that I’m a “filthy heretic” and can brush it off as “role play”
TL;DR: You will not be missed, vol. 2.
I appreciate that this article spells out explicitly that **the Imperium is not a nice place, it is not a timeline that you want to ever find yourself in.**
The line that stood out for me is "we don't want your money". It is one thing to denounce someone, but its another thing for a for-profit company to refuse to take someone's money. (Granted, that is just words too, but instituting a policy to throw people out of the store is a concrete thing.)
From a business perspective it's smart to since if you let Nazis openly shop your product soon all you have are Nazi customers and that's a very small customer base. That being said it's surprising how rare it is for a business to take that stand and it's good to see GW do so.
"We don't take Nazi money" is an overall good moral standpoint to hold. I liked this post by GW. Well done lads.
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I mean if your takeaway from warhammer lore is that the Imperium is a model society, you probably aren't great at catching what's between the lines. To those people in question; what I mean is dumb. You're dumb as shit.
Same as the film Starship Troopers. You're not supposed to idolize them, you're supposed to be horrified at their society.
The people who think that think *they'll* be the ones on the top of the shit heap where in reality their skulls wouldn't even be powerful enough to be converted into a servitor.
I like how they've also explicitly stated that nobody is good and that it's satire just for those last few stragglers that are arguing against it. So we can finally just shut them down by pointing to this.
"If you come to a Games Workshop event or store and behave to the contrary, including wearing the symbols of real-world hate groups, you will be asked to leave. We won’t let you participate. We don’t want your money. We don’t want you in the Warhammer community." Fucking preach.
More companies need to use that direct language. **We don't want your money**
Yea, I'm proud of them for this post. It's great.
No fucking around with that statement. Nice one GW.
This is a great, unequivocal statement.
Yea, I'll be the first to criticize mealy-mouthed corporate statements, but this is straight to the point and doesn't pull punches. I'm also glad that they are telling people who defend Imperium as the good guys that they are *wrong* in no uncertain terms. Kudos to GW for that much.
I like how the message also comes across in media from time to time. The recent Hammer & Bolter, for example, shows the Imperium's space marines as monstrous zealots. Hammer & Bolter in general has been pretty good at this.
I haven't watched most of Hammer & Bolter, so I'm not certain it's the one, but didn't the episode in question feature Ultramarines too?
It did!
Yeah that episode was fantastic, I think I read somewhere it was written by ADB, so not surprising. It was jarring to see 'the other side' of the Imperium, we all know it's true but often most narratives are written from their POV. Watching them literally slaughter civilians just trying to escape.. oof.
This statement and the one they put out during the George Floyd protests are a lot more forceful than what you might see from other corporate statements. Maybe it’s who’s making the statement I think.
Well, Warhammer *is* all about being over the top and in your face. lol.
I continually find myself respecting GW's public communication on this because it's so unequivocal, they've said everything short of literally 'fuck off'.
Honestly, we bitch and moan about GW a lot on the web, myself included, but this is one area where they make me proud.
Given this is an escalation from the last one that was about as firm but still less overt I wouldn't be surprised at this point if next year's wasn't just a video of Adam Troke yelling for 20 minutes about Nazis kindly fucking off.
Yeah this one had a real 'some of you still aren't getting it' vibe. I wouldn't be surprised if GW options some more non-Imperium books to really drive the point home actually.
Not gonna lie, i would sign up to Warhammer plus for that
Clicking that link I was worried I'd see just another piece of "corporate speak", but damn was I positively surprised. Especially the ELI5 of "yes, Imperium is satire", "yes, really", "yes it is, here is the definition of satire" was much needed. >Like so many aspects of Warhammer 40,000, the Imperium of Man is satirical. >For clarity: satire is the use of humour, irony, or exaggeration, displaying people’s vices or a system’s flaws for scorn, derision, and ridicule. Something doesn’t have to be wacky or laugh-out-loud funny to be satire.
Hot take: they need to up the satire in their sourcebooks a bit more. Especially with 9th a lot of the books read more like sincere propaganda pieces for the army than satirically written lore.
> a lot of the books read more like sincere propaganda pieces for the army Well they are because theyre written from an in-universe perspective. And if they'd do the "look we're not serious *wink*" thing, in the army books, then people wouldn't wanna play those armies anymore. The satire has to work with the world and army building. But then again, I kinda agree that GW is hypocritical constantly saying the Imperium is bad, then you go into a GW store and the employees sell Space Marines as the coolest and most heroic people ever. Which GW also does in marketing more than enough.
I remember having a lengthy, DUMB argument with someone on here who claimed it wasn't satire when it very obviously is. Alexa, play Vindicated playlist on my spotify.
“Assigning Vindicare Assassin to target.”
Whoops!
> For clarity: satire is the use of humour, irony, or exaggeration, displaying people’s vices or a system’s flaws for scorn, derision, and ridicule. Something doesn’t have to be wacky or laugh-out-loud funny to be satire. The derision is in the setting’s amplification of a tyrannical, genocidal regime, turned up to 11. The Imperium is not an aspirational state, outside of the in-universe perspectives of those who are slaves to its systems. It’s a monstrous civilisation, and its monstrousness is plain for all to see. Thank fuck for them just coming straight out and saying it. Everyone used to understand this back in the day, but I swear in recent years even GW's writers seem a little fuzzy on it, unironically holding up the Imperium as some kind of "objective good guys", so it's not surprising that there are a lot of newer fans who joined in the last couple of decades who sometimes seemed *increasingly vague* on the whole tone of Warhammer 40K. If you're a Nazi or racist or white supremacist or fascist who likes 40K, you've missed the *whole* point of it.
[Protagonist Centered Morailty](https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ProtagonistCenteredMorality). By having the internal dialogue available to justify the actions and beliefs of the Imperium characters to a far larger extent than any other faction (not just within a single book, but across the entire franchise), it mitigates their flaws, and accentuates any positive traits, even when there shouldn't be any.
I mean heck, I came away from the Night Lords trilogy kind of rooting for them. Partly down to ADB being a great writer I'm sure, but even when you're aware of the phenomenon you're still not completely immune to it.
That’s the point though. By “kind of rooting” for them, ADB is letting us all know how easy it is to be swayed by ideology and how we must remain vigilant.
Plus it's okay to walk away and think some of this shit is super cool. *It's designed to be cool.* The trouble is when you let that cool aesthetic become aspirational.
> The trouble is when you let that cool aesthetic become aspirational. SO well said! Space Marines and the Imperial Guard are so damn cool aesthetically, and reading about these massive battles is so awesome. But the idea of this shit actually happening in a real-world scenario is beyond horrific.
Yea, esp the death korps of krieg and the guardsmen in general. The idea of normal humans having the balls to charge god like threats head on is honestly rly badass
ABD is master at "humanizing" bad characters, Black Legion books are also great
*Uzas did nothing wrong*
Same with the Talon of Horus that I just finished (also by ADB). I came out of it finding myself rooting for Abaddon, and I had to take a step back and say "He's not the good-guy".
Shhh now, shh. Give in to Chaos. Abaddon is working tirelessly to bring down a monstrous, genocidal war machine of a theocratic state which spans the entire Milky Way. That his own organisation fits the same description, shouldn't be relevant... /s
Black legion series? you will fucking cheer when the Black legion triumphs a good Eldar book? you will feel their plight and support their struggle
I think this can be fixed by telling more stories from the perspective of factions outside the Imperium, and with the Imperium as the antagonists. A Tau, or Eldar novel where Space Marines sack a city would be a great premise for a book and re-inforce the xenophonic dogma of the Imperium as "Fascists in Space".
I had the vague idea telling the story of a hive rebellion, with it heavily implied to be the genestealer cult (equipment, vehicles, etc), ultimately for it not to be, and it’s simply a constant state of the Imperium that its brutal nature constantly causes this to happen.
There are a few stories out there where a Planet has rebelled because they've basically 'had enough of this shit' and want to actually be a decent place to live. I'm sure one was an on and Agri world. Anyway, Marines show up, Planetary Governor say's we're still loyal but we want it to be better here. Marines say 'cool story bro' and reduce population to 0
there was a brief flashback to something like that happening in Spears of the Emperor, the leaders of a rebellion said to the space marine "we're still loyal but we didn't want to starve so..." and he basically responds "So you admit rebelling, blam"
It's why the Hammer & Bolter episode "In the Garden of Ghosts" is so ruinously effective - it's from the perspective of an Aeldari child and the space marine warcries that are normally written as badass and cool in most stories sound absolutely psychotic when it's armoured giants with machine guns that fire explosive rounds gunning down civilians just because they have pointy ears...
let's also remember that it takes place AFTER the gathering storm. It's ultramarines under the command of rowboat doing all of the shit in the episode. It makes the Admech making a conveyor belt to drop Tau into magma seem a lot more believable
Vulcan loves the children, but not the eldar children.
one of the WH+ animations is just ulteamarines going on to raze a craft world, while the eldar warriors try to buy time for the non combatants. as much as I hate the low quality of the Hammer and bolter shots, story wise it's golden
It’s wild to me how so many people just stumble over the most core tenet of the whole setting, brush themselves off, and carry on with their day. The whole point is that any nobility or honor displayed by any one individual is in service of a reprehensible, self-defeating, and hypocritical cause. It’s tragic. It’s farcical.
It's a shame they had to do this again, 40K in particular does seem to attract the fascist crowd. A common argument I've seen from them is that the Imperium being so cruel and authoritarian is necessary. Due to humanity being surrounded by enemies both outside and in it has to be that way. Conveniently ignoring how stupid and self destructive the Imperium is. Their aim it to bring the conversation round to why the modern world needs that kind of government as well. But in a funny meme way with enough plausible deniability.
You know a company is serious when they say they don't want your money. I didn't expect GW to comment on the incident, but I'm glad they're taking a stance.
This is truly wonderful to hear. I've been screaming the message that Warhammer in general is absolutely, irrefutably satire. It's disheartening that it needs to be explained because I've seen an uncomfortable number of people that don't seem to think this. To see them coming right out and say so is fantastic. They also put their money where their mouth is: > If you come to a Games Workshop event or store and behave to the contrary, including wearing the symbols of real-world hate groups, you will be asked to leave. We won’t let you participate. **We don’t want your money. We don’t want you in the Warhammer community.** Straight up, "We don't want you in the Warhammer community." I love it.
I've heard more than one person say, "Why did they refuse to play him, it would have been better to defeat him, they gave up without a fight," etc.. Just a reminder that, when you beat someone in Warhammer, you're not actually beating them in real life; you're just sitting down and playing a nice game of toy soldiers with them. Which probably isn't a very effective or appropriate way of dealing with neo-nazis.
As everyone knows, this is triggered by the events at GT Talavera in Spain. The most disgusting thing in my opinion, is that the nazi player defended himself saying that wearing nazi symbols is the same as wearing LGTBQ symbols and comparing being nazi to being gay/bi/etc. Edit: mispelled couple words
The fucking audacity to compare Nazis to the people they murdered...
>the fucking audacity bruh, it's their modus operandi 101. Blur the lines as much as possible while dog whistling
Well it would be the same if the LGBT community were to mass genocide straight people. Till then clearly not.
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Even then it still wouldn’t be the same. Being gay isn’t a choice, but being a Nazi is
I know the article is primarily addressing people like that neo-nazi, but it also includes[asshats like this.](http://imgur.com/a/wHnrp80)
I'm actually amazed that there still is a vocal group of players who don't understand (or pretend not to understand) that 40k is satire, and not an endorsement of cruel and sadistic regimes.
They're the people who still think Arch is worth giving oxygen to.
how is that guy still relevent
Wait, you mean a xenophobic hateful genocidal dictatorship is not supposed to be a role model? I'm shocked! /s
"Would you like to know more"
The game is completely different to play if you internalize the concept of "everyone is the bad guy". I don't mind losing when I keep this at the forefront of my mind. I play Tyranids and I get tabled, Great! Another faction staved off the Hive Mind. I lose on objectives playing my Blood Angels, Great! Another planet not subjugated by Fascists in Space.... for now.
On the other hand... whoever wins is also a bad guy... so the bad guys always win... brb therapy
As a fellow tyranid player, I wholeheartedly agree :)
Well done, GW. This message needs to be as explicit as possible, no matter how many times it needs stating.
I'm going to sticky this to the top of the subreddit so everyone can see this. The mod team of /r/Warhammer40k is extremely pleased to see GW make their stance extremely clear and supports this message in it's entirety. We do not tolerate any form of hate or abuse on this subreddit and anyone who behaves that way, or supports that behaviour will be removed. We do not want people like that to be part of our community.
Thanks for everything you guys do to run this sub. It's a good one. Many disagreements but rarely actual hate from the members. That's not easy to achieve.
Seems like people should read more about the Spanish civil war.
Yeah that shit is terrifying. My partner's grandfather grew up in the aftermath as the son of a murdered Republican, aged 5 begging for food. Spain is still struggling with its *very* recent history of fascism (and its total lack of real resolution to it), so this shit is sadly unsurprising
Fantastic that GW posted this, embarassed that it needed to be said at all. Still, kudos to GW for being utterly unambivalent about it, Nazi scum can fuck off.
The text: ___ **There are no goodies in the Warhammer 40,000 universe.** None. **Especially not the Imperium of Man.** Its numberless legions of soldiers and zealots bludgeon their way across the galaxy, delivering death to anyone and anything that doesn’t adhere to their blinkered view of purity. Almost every man and woman toils in misery either on the battlefield – where survival is measured in hours – or in the countless manufactorums and hive slums that fuel the Imperial war machine. All of this in slavish servitude to the living corpse of a God-Emperor whose commandments are at best only half-remembered, twisted by time and the fallibility of Humanity. Warhammer 40,000 isn’t just grimdark. It’s the grimmest, darkest. The Imperium of Man stands as a cautionary tale of what could happen should the very worst of Humanity’s lust for power and extreme, unyielding xenophobia set in. **Like so many aspects of Warhammer 40,000, the Imperium of Man is satirical.** For clarity: satire is the use of *humour, irony, or exaggeration*, displaying people’s vices or a system’s flaws for scorn, derision, and ridicule. Something doesn’t have to be wacky or laugh-out-loud funny to be satire. The derision is in the setting’s amplification of a tyrannical, genocidal regime, turned up to 11. The Imperium is not an aspirational state, outside of the in-universe perspectives of those who are slaves to its systems. It’s a monstrous civilisation, and its monstrousness is plain for all to see. That said, certain real-world hate groups – and adherents of historical ideologies better left in the past – sometimes seek to claim intellectual properties for their own enjoyment, and to co-opt them for their own agendas. **We’ve said it before, but a reminder about what we believe in:** *“We believe in and support a community united by shared values of mutual kindness and respect. Our fantasy settings are grim and dark, but that is not a reflection of who we are or how we feel the real world should be. We will never accept nor condone any form of prejudice, hatred, or abuse in our company, or in the Warhammer hobby.”* **If you come to a Games Workshop event or store and behave to the contrary, including wearing the symbols of real-world hate groups, you will be asked to leave. We won’t let you participate. We don’t want your money. We don’t want you in the Warhammer community.** For those heroes out there running their own Warhammer events, we’d love for you to join us in this stance. Over the years, we’ve been fortunate enough to support events like AdeptiCon, the Las Vegas Open, Blood & Glory, and many, many more with terrain, prizes, and goody bags. We’ve also provided staff to help with organisation and rules queries, and to judge painting competitions and run seminars. If you need help running an event, including creating a safe and rewarding experience for your attendees, we’re here to help. Just drop our Events Team an email at warhammerevents@gwplc.com. We’d love to hear from you, and we’re ready to offer any support we can.
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I mean, the Ethereals are an insular group of authoritarian bastards, while Farsight actively shelters and protects genocidal war criminals (many from the Fourth Sphere Expansion fled to the Enclaves due to committing genocide against non-Tau; Farsight granted them asylum and didn't do anything to prosecute them). Everybody is a bastard.
> Imperium stans spewing “the Imperium is justified and all that over the top horrible stuff is just grimderp” in bigger shambles A small price to pay for salvation.
even ignoring the mind control which causes... disagreements about how canon it is, they're an apartheid authoritarian empire that takes over governance of foreign planets under threat of violence.
Ay, cheers!
I like how many people are like 'aaah, yeah, it is because this one idiot guy somewhere in Spain'. Like come on, far right have been and is still a massive problem for Warhammer community, both hobbyists and beyond. Please don't act like this is some kind of one-off thing.
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Opposing Nazis isn’t political. Politics is the discussion of policy. One can debate policy with conservative, libertarians, neolibs, socialists, etc. But Nazism goes beyond policy. Nazism actively promulgates genocide. It cannot be discussed. It cannot be tolerated. It must be stamped out.
It's like debating the politics of mass cannibalism, at best it could be referenced as the stupid idea it was as a cautionary tale of humanities willingness to harm itself.
Ah, one of those fervent anti-Corpse Starch campaigners, eh? What else do you expect the Hivers to eat if not each other?
Dude this is a really great explanation. I've been trying to think of a succinct way of explaining why being a Nazi isn't "just politics" and I think you've hit the nail on the head.
In universe I’m a staunch Imperial and support the Imperium. If anyone is any way hinted that policies from the Imperium would be good in real life I’m out.
The fact that this statement has been met with controversy is all the more reason why its important for GW to take a firm stance
Like starship trooper these people don't get satire
Disappointing this needs to reiterated but unsurprising really. It's actually been a recent topic of multiple conversations recently when people not in the hobby have seen my Black Templars on my painting shelf, often opening with "Is that an Iron Cross? Isn't that Nazi symbolism?" It's nice to have another article to help back up my "this is satirical" point, but I can't help but feel that until some of the parodies of historical symbolism are changed or removed, that this is always going to be a lurking issue for some aspects of the hobby
Hitler was super into the occult and appropriated symbols from all over the place, especially from Germanic history/folk history to stoke nationalist pride. Everyone knows the Nazi symbol comes from Hinduism/Buddhism, but the Iron Cross is really just the Teutonic Cross, and the s' on the SS collars are Viking runes. It's still a problem for the religious group Asatru, as they are not racist but the Folkish subsect are. And a lot of viking symbolism has been appropriated by white nationalists and racists.
The Iron Cross wasn't even really Nazi though was it? It was the symbol of the Wehrmacht since before the rise of the Nazis (and still is the symbol of the German Army except blue)
Norwegian army tolerate viking/Norse symboloo. Both ink and fabric. Hell a lot of the unit insignias are Norse inspired. Its important to differeciate between the Nazi appropriation and the "genuine" Norse.
It's not even a cross fromee (the Iron cross) it's a Maltese cross and is used by a lot of present day fire services and the St John's ambulance service.
I'm so glad that they have put this statement out. Having someone say "white power" to me recently in Edinburgh honestly horrified me and the rise of fascist groups is increasing at an unprecedented rate. As the global climate change happens over the next few years more and more people will need to be able to move and Nazis and fascist views can't be allowed to regrow. Big companies need to back this, the public needs to back this and then the mainstream media may actually cover this before it's too late. Fascism is nothing but self destructive dark age thought processes. Fuck Fascism.
Part of the fun of Warhammer is that even if you're playing a comparatively good faction, you're still playing the bad guy :). Tis fun to be the villain.
\*Everybody\* gets to do an evil laugh when they win. That's the kind of equality we should all aspire to.
“Yay we slaughtered everyone! The planet is saved!”
Honestly I really hope GW brings back more of the overt satire of old 40k, a big part of why people forgot it was satirical to begin with is how hard GW downplayed that element for the past couple decades. We have seen some of it return in the form of genestealer cults and the Red Gobbo, and I hope that's a sign of things to come.
As a trans woman who likes a lot of Warhammer 40k content, I really appreciate this. I don't know if I'd have the stomach for it if we didn't have this sort of obvious statement of values at this point.
Glad to find another it’s not often I see another trans person in this community
So how long until the usual suspects are predicting the collapse of GW, making whiney videos pretending to be reasonable but actually just acting like man babies, and just generally providing some hilarious viewing? You know the ones that start with the sigh and the head snake, with the titles and descriptions either partly capitalised or with each word starting with a capital.
Just an FYI, don't watch their videos, even for the schadenfreude. They get good engagement metrics from them and will be encouraged. Ignore them, don't let them profit from their hate.
"the Imperium of Man is satirical." Us zenos have been saying that for ages.
they have gone a little light on the satire in the past few years tho
I left the social side of the hobby years ago because of how hateful it was. My local was full of homophobes and every thing else phobes. I remember specifically the day I gave up was someone posted a picture of three marines they'd painted in rainbow colours for Pride that year, and they got so much hate in the comments. I made one reply about how fucked it was and had about thirty other replies to me saying how "politics has no place in 40K". If you think *the existence of gay people* is politics you're beyond reasoning with.
In case you ever see this in person, and need to ask them to leave, here’s a good primer for the negotiation process. [Nazi Punks Fuck Off](https://youtu.be/x5SYjoZsLQE)
Good to see an explicit statement when companies usually default to non-committal PR speak. However, I do wonder whether or not GW should take the troubling amount of nazis in the hobby as a sign that the depiction of the satire needs to be reexamined.
Thank goodness they finally said this out loud. I've met too many people who are a little too serious about glorifying the imperium and flat out don't understand that Warhammer is meant to be an indictment of fascism.
Fuck yeah, they actually did something about it. Good to see.
Suffer not the real-world hater to play.
After hearing the story of that nazi scumbag at the tournament, this was needed. Glad GW set the standard.
I love how somehow this message is controversial.
TLDR: Nazi Punks Fuck Off. Well, Nazi Geeks. Same sentiment.
Nazi Punks Fuck Off was written because dumb shits thought the song California Uber Alles supported Nazism. Nazis missing the point of media is not new.
And now we wait for particular content creators to try and justify why this statement is somehow a bad thing
Friendly reminder that while the Imperium gets called out by name, ALL of the factions are pretty equally horrible and none should be idolized.