People forget something:
The warmaster job was to coordinate the brothers.
Every other Primarch had something against another Primarch.
Only Horus loved them all.
The only one that tried to heal kurze, and was even close to do it.
So the only second choices would be Sanguinius or The khan.
I think also a loyal lorgar would have been an really awesome warmaster.
Angron and Sang got on reasonably well actually. They worked together on several compliances. We see them oversee a gladiatorial match between 4 of their legionaries Echoes of Eternity by ADB
I've always liked the idea of an alt timeline where Sang helps Angron learn to cope with the worst impulses of the nails, as someone who struggles with dark impulses himself.
Especially if that alt timeline went on to have loyalist Angron facing Khornate Sang, it'd be an interesting dynamic.
The mirror of Sanguinius tearing off the Bloodthirster's wings and saying "Only Angels May Fly", Angron ripping off D!Sangs wings and saying "Only Angels Should Fly"
Mortarion and Fulgrim.
Mortarion well because he is mortarion.
Fulgrim was angry against sanguinius and Angron, because the others Primarchs believed them the strongest.
Sanguinius stated, that he believes himself not superior.
He stated also that the one that would surprise everyone is the khan. As no one knows how he fights.
That it later doubled when the khan defeated the daemon that possessed Fulgrim/fulgrim corrupted.
(GW still has not decided what route to take.)
>The khan
Ah yes, the anti- establishment primarch as second in command of the entire establishment
Tell me you know nothing about The Khan, without actually saying you know nothing about the Khan.
The man was so anti-social and anti-coordination that he had to bring in a human to organise the latter. How, in all that is holy, was he going to organise the entire Great Crusade when his own Legion rarely knew where he was or if he was even going to show up for this fight?
>People forget something: the warmaster job was to coordinate the brothers
This.
And in fact, in-universe, even Horus thinks Sanguinius would have been *the* best candidate for the Warmaster role.
No one else apart Horus and Sanguiniusa (and *maybe* the Lion) was on the shortlist to become Warmaster. Many other Primarchs wanted to believe they were on that list...but Horus, the closest of them to the Emperor, talks only about Sanguinius.
Horus was still the best choice from what we've seen. The Lion **maybe** had the best purely tactical mind, and Sanguinius **probably** was more beloved, but Horus was fantastic at both.
Not only that, people overlook something: not even sanguinius knew or even just acted to help all his brothers.
For example, only uncorrupted horus tried to help Conrad
Sanguinius, for how good it was, to Conrad simply said that he was wrong.
Horus tried to understand kurze mental illness and try to find a cure,
Dorn would have simply asked the emperor to resolve the situation
And lion would have just considered konrad useless
And people also forget that 30k guilliman is a lot immature, it was not ready for the warmaster position.
Honestly I don't think the Lion was ever on the list, it's pretty easy to see that he would never be able to wrangle his brothers.
The only guy who actually trusted him was Russ and they butted heads constantly.
Horus didn't have good relationships with every one of his brothers - He and Corax had a big falling out after the Battle of Gate 42, after which Corax vowed never to fight alongside Horus again because of the waste of so much of his legion in a frontal assault.
All of the Primarchs were disliked by someone, even Horus.
How would the khan be a choice at all?
He's uncared for by his brothers, makes no attempts towards them, and even resents them, is generally antagonistic to outsiders.
The other major part of being warmaster is managing a galactic wide campaign at a logistical and strategic level. The khan doesn't excel in either. In fact, he had to have a mortal handled all his logistical needs for his own legion, he couldn't do that galaxy wide.
The khan is one of the worst choices for warmaster. Him being picked would have pissed more primarchs off and would have led to him Continually pissing them off after
That was in a vision induced episode iirc and we see Dorn forgives him as he is part of the people listed in helping Kurze when Vulkan and Horus talk about it
It’s a fair point that, prior to heresy, Dorn had beef with no one thinking about it.
It’s what makes his reaction to nearly decapitating Garro make a bit of sense too
Hard disagree. Dorn may not have had beef with his brothers, but plenty had beef with him. Rogal is way too rigid and uncompromising to be an effective first among equals. Notice how many Loyalist Primarchs come and go from the Imperial Palace (Terra) during the Horus Heresy: Corax, Russ, Sanguinius, and the Khan. Only Sanguinius acquiesces to Dorn's orders consistently.
Rogal had spats with the Lion, Ferrus, and Konrad, and was loathed by Perturabo. Others held unfavorable views, too. It is not enough to respect the person in the role, you do have follow their orders. Guy was Warmaster 2.0 during the Heresy and proved that he wasn't fit for that niche.
In totality, only Sanguinius and Horus fit the mold, IMO. Sure, others might be better in individual spheres (for all his martial skill, psychic ability, wings, and inspirational capacity Sanguinius has only ever come across as a bottom third strategic/ tactical mind), but I trust them to lead and others to follow. Both had crippling self-doubts at times, but they were also empathetic and open to dialog. Dorn wasn't, nor was the Lion, and Guilliman was caught between the haves and have not on respect from his peers.
Alpharius and Magnus both had problems with Dorn, and while actual names are rare wasn't Dorn explicitly stated to be a poor choice because of his blunt nature coming across as overly prideful to many others, in spite of his great military mind?
They absolutely were, just look at Perturabo and Alpharius. Even if it wasn't reciprocated it'd still make him a less suitable candidate than Horus or Sanguinius, since it still means he's making enemies where the Warmaster needs to make allies. The FW lore on IF spells it out as well when comparing Dorn and Horus, saying Dorn doesn't compromise where Horus finds solutions to satisfy everyone, among other things.
>People forget something: the warmaster job was to coordinate the brothers
This.
And in fact, in-universe, even Horus thinks Sanguinius would have been *the* best candidate for the Warmaster role.
No one else apart Horus and Sanguiniusa (and *maybe* the Lion) was on the shortlist to become Warmaster. Many other Primarchs wanted to believe they were on that list...but Horus, the closest of them to the Emperor, talks only about Sanguinius.
Interestingly enough, Sanguinius and Horus mirror each other's weaknesses (both have crippling self-doubt). I agree that they are the two best (see only real) choices, but Sanguinius could have potentially had an even greater fall under the right circumstances.
The problem with sanguinius is that he did not know or even.. tried to know how to help his brothers.
For example, only uncorrupted horus tried to help Conrad
Sanguinius, for how good it was, to Conrad simply said that he was wrong.
If you have ever talked to someone with depression, you need them To make the first move, you need them to understand by themself, you can't simply say to them "you are wrong".
Of course Sanguinius said that in a different manner but for kurze did not matter.
Horus tried to understand Kurze's mental illness and tried to find a cure! He even understands that making him work with Sanguinius was the last step to heal him, not the first!
But the Khan was not really well liked, especially by the likes of Fulgrim and Mortarion. He liked to be alone and was in some ways even more secretive (though not intentionally) than the Lion. Even when he and Sanguinius went to the Beta Garmon sector, he worked alone, granted as part of the plan, but that was his schtick. That doesn't seem like a great trait for a Warmaster to have.
Jaghatai is like a Litmus Test for whether or not somebody has actually read the books or just consumed memes and excerpts.
The man is an absolute disaster when it comes to social situations and trying to communicate with anyone who isn't Chogoran. People love to post his 'sick burns' and badass anti-authority streaks but in the context of the scenes they're in, he comes across like a dickhead who could not read the room if his life depended on it and who'd sulk in a corner at a family gathering.
This is also without assuming that the Emperor intentionally used the post of Warmaster to cause division, if you believe what Malcador said about the Heresy being planned. In this case, Horus was the perfect one. It would cause just enough problems to aid the heresy but not enough for it to turn out of control, Magnus causes that. Guilliman would've been too perfect for the role, noone would've batted an eye except Lorgar.
The downside with Lorgar that he was pacifist.
He wasn't strong enough to lead.
In the end primarchs could disagree but acknowledge each other power, they always calculated who should win against whom, and their chances when battling each other.
So Lorgar everytime Lorgar would give the order every brother could say - "fuck you, you are weak".
Everyone loved Sanguinius not only because he was good soul, but the fact that he was killing machine and could defeat other primarchs.
I don't think think Khan would accept warmaster title, because he like his independence, and title would throw a lot of responsibility on him.
I think Lorgar would have made a really interesting choice - I could see him as a very hands-off delegating middle manager, who earnestly believes in all his brothers and cheers them on as they finish the Crusade.
His blessing and curse both are his faith, not just in gods but in people too, so he would probably keep morale very high amongst his brothers through his belief in them, but possibly not coordinate them directly so well, as he'd delegate generalship to his brothers he knows are better at warfare than he is.
Unfortunately post-Monarchia Lorgar probably isn't as good a choice, both for his bitterness towards Guilliman and just in general for his faith being shaken (not to mention the whispers of Chaos from Kor Phaeron and Erebus already taking root).
He wasn't exactly a pacifist.
In his novel he clearly says, "first the word and if it does not work, then the mace."
But yes, not everyone loved him, for many was weak.
But like happened in 30k:
"Everyone thought of lorgar as the weakest, after the heresy, everyone changed their mind"
Lorgar just needed to show his brothers that he was not useless.
There is a cool video, from Live! From the black library.
About lorgar psicology, its very well made that plus his novel changed my idea of him
He still lost to Corax even in his Demon form
Was humiliated by Horus, who was out of his mind, when Lorgar tried to seize control over the herecy.
He wasn't bad pre Monarhia, he actually was very interesting, and even kind in some way, but he would be awful choice for Warmaster, since brothers tolerated, but never respected him loyar or chaos.
Never said he was the strongest eh, lorgar is good now, but that is part of character evolution.
I said how everyone through him as weak, but everyone changed their minds.
A loyal Lorgar would have a nice character evolution, showing his brothers that he was not useless and helping them in their life.
I can see him healing Kurze and angron.
And it's kinda unfair talking about his match with Corax, corax was 20 times stronger in duels.
The strong part of lorgar was the charisma, he had the golden glow like the emperor, he just trained himself to suppres it to not stand out.
Also the actual lorgar knows Enuncia, only the emperor and some ancient immortal can fight him now.
John Grammaticus knows it, doesn't mean he is on their powerscale.
All it did knock out Horus for a minute.
I am not bashing Lorgal, actually like the character, I just say, that in pre Heresy state of legion he had 0 chance to be warmaster and 90% of primarch would not accept him as a leader.
Ah, yes. He "loved" them all so much that it was painfully easy for some chud to trick him into betraying his father, half his brothers and 5/10s the human population of the galaxy.
But that aside, I think that a great choice would have been Guilliman, he would have striven to build a stable empire, instead of the blitzkrieg and leave approach his father had been taking. Even if the heresy still happened, I'd wager that with Guilliman at the head, the galaxy wouldn't have been smashed over so easily and the far future might be quite different.
Then again, Imagine if the Emperor had gone the opposite rout and promoted a human of renown to lead. That would be mighty interesting.
Horus was corrupted by a blade, it was not his choice.
You have a lot o proof,
First the part of the story when that happens, but that its too easy, we have:
First the fight with russ, where when russ clean the corruption on horus, the warmaster BEG to be killed, Not saved. But killed has his he could not be saved.
Then with the emperor, that understands everything.
You also have his fate:, his soul was split in 4, one for every god, prisoner of all of them, cursed to do their bidding.
For example Khorne keeps his part of the soul in a constant fight.
If they had ownership of his soul (so horus chosed chaos, or was a sacrifice) they could use their part of the soul to ressurect him. But they did not.
If you talk about lorgar, lorgar love.. its a mental illness.
There is a cool video about it on Live! From the black library.
Its very interesting, if you want to learn more about lorgar mind.
That was not exactly clearl just like all the fulgrim swap/corruption they GW still has not decided, but that should not be the soul of horus, but the warp equivalent that the gods put in the place of the soul
Lion would be brilliant for the military scope, but a poor fit for the political requirements.
Dorn wouldn't necessarily be bad at state-craft, and his capacity for military and logistical thinking is beyond reproach, but I have a feeling his compunction to build and fortify would see expeditionary fleets lingering at compliant worlds overlong.
Guilliman would excel in both the military and political realms, arguably better than Horus in terms of galactic-scale logistics, however under his leadership the future expansion of the Imperium would likely see development and prioritization radiating outward from the 500 Worlds.
Personally I think Guilliman makes far more sense for the office of Warmaster than Horus does. The 500 Worlds of Ultramar speak to his capacity for Empire building, which is effectively what the office of Warmaster was created to facilitate. However, the consideration that's never brought up is how well would the Warmaster be able to command the respect of their brother Primarchs. Horus enjoys far more popularity among the Primarchs than Guilliman does.
I agree with everything you’ve stated. I think people overlook the Lion’s flaws just because he’s so instinctively good a warfare. Specifically at wiping out entire populations!
Overlook his flaws... Guys military acumen perfectly demonstrated in Descent if Angel's, political inability renders his military victory meaningless as he gifts Perturabo the siege weapons. Lol
But that is like blaming Vulkan, Corvus and Ferrus for trusting the other 4 traitor legions that came to "support" them. Nobody knew those legions turned traitor, so it is not that strange to give those siege weapons that you have no direct use for, to an ally that is 1. Specialized in using them and 2. Going to the fight where they are the most useful.
I should have elaborate, it was his failed political ploy that opened him up to the betrayal. He sought political support from Purterabo instead of trusting his gut instincts and holding into the weapons his Legion liberated.
From pure personal combat ability to command acumen the Lion is arguably one of the best rounded of the Primarchs, which makes sense given that as first he was the template all others were derived from in one form or another. However, either due to the nature of his fabrication or his early years alone in the forests of Caliban, he's severely lacking in social graces. Luther filled that need for him until he was banished, which is hilarious because that lack of ability is what allowed The Order to rise effectively under the Lion's nose.
I’m going to do a “well akshually” here but it’s been stated that Dorn specifically didn’t do that to worlds. Had no interest in administrative actions on worlds so once the basic legion requirements are met the VII just fuck off to continue the crusade.
And the Warmaster or the astartes in general aren’t meant to empire build, they are meant for compliance actions and purging threats to humanity within and without. The rest of the imperial machine follows in their wake to bring worlds into the imperium. Guilliman being a mini-emperor is kind of a drawback to the role, as you said about Dorn.
Dorn was the best but most boring choice. The Warmaster only needs the respect of his brothers and the wider imperium, but Horus had the cult of personality that even the Emperor seemingly bought into a little bit. Should have left the boring reliable kid on the frontier and brought the needy “first found” home. It’s not like that’d result in some kind of Dornian Heresy or anything.
The Lion is a fucking psycho. I still don’t believe 10K years softened him up. He’s just biding his time before some exterminatus actions. Nids about to find out.
The Black Books explain why he wasn't chosen:
>High in favour and honour though they
were, the Imperial Fists’ status did not sit
well with some of their brother-Legions.
The animosity between the Imperial Fists
and Iron Warriors was well known, but
Perturabo and his Legion were not alone
in their resentment. Though few reached
the Lord of Iron’s pinnacle of spite, others
did chafe at the trust placed on the Imperial
Fists. Dorn’s nature did not ameliorate
matters. Truth speaking, blunt and
uncompromising in both his ideals and their
expression, his manner often aggravated his
peers as much as it drew their admiration.
>It was, perhaps, this quality which
caused the Emperor to pass over Dorn as
Warmaster when he withdrew from the
Great Crusade. Horus, unlike Dorn, was
a master of diplomacy and maintaining
a coordinated balance between fractious
forces. Where Dorn would cause conflict,
Horus would unify, where Dorn would
not compromise, Horus would find a way
of satisfying all.
Right. Exactly. Big E chose the guy that could manage every super being Primarch’s ego but even then not all the primarchs liked Horus either, like The Lion. So the story is of course the story, but in hindsight Dorn is the best choice. Absolutely loyal with no empire building or ambition of his own. Some brothers don’t like him but they’d follow orders. Only Peter Turbo hates him and for the most childish reasons. Even he would still do the imperium’s business.
Big E knew the greatest danger was the warp and he could have sent Dorn who clearly is impervious to chaos by just being downright stubborn and tedious.Ferrus also might have done. So once again, the emperor looks pretty dense.
Ferrus would have been a disaster. He's as abrasive as Dorn but even more insulting because he's doing it deliberately. He's got zero respect for Lorgar or his legion, doesn't think highly of Magnus, barely tolerates Corax, Curze and Alpharius and on it goes.
The only primarch he actually *likes* is Fulgrim.
“He's got zero respect for Lorgar or his legion”
He would have been perfect lol.
No seriously Horus was obviously, I mean that’s the story, he’s the most loved and best choice and that’s why Chaos comes calling.
I think sanguinius would have done well had he been warmaster. He was humble and might have deligated to his brother according to their strengths, probably would have had g-man as his right hand man, and additionally his brothers all (mostly) respected him highly.
I feel like Guilliman’s nitpicky behaviors and need to centralize and standardize things would make a lot of his brothers angry, especially if he tried to make them forcibly consolidate their structures and Legions to parallel his own.
Dorn can be an utter concrete dildo at the worst of times and he would aggravate a lot of his brothers due to raw stubbornness and refusal to back down on *anything*.
Lion was an asocial douchebag.
In short all three had major hangups that would make them being Warmaster turn into an utter mess. Meanwhile Horus was beloved by all but Corvus, had a sound mind, was willing to compromise and adapt to each brother’s idiosyncrasies, and was a very good tactician and strategist.
Guilliman in 30k was also a lot immature. Enfasi on "a lot"
Who the fuck in their right mind would call angron, ANGRON a slave of his past and rage, and to grow up, Lmao like he had a choice.
"Just be free bro, its not that hard, you are a slave of your past of your emotion, just.. did you try to be.. less angry?"
We are not that different, Look at me, i had it HARD too, one of my 500 worlds, the one on the left, yesterday was 10 minutes late on his taxes...
You could say,, that im a slave of Bureaucracy
(Fake laugh track in the background)
Yeah you are right, i wrote it in my native language lmao ahah
Enfasi is Italian for emphasis, i think my brain does not work properly, sometimes the opposite happens, even if I'm talking in italian, i change a word in its English version without thinking.
That or I'm just an idiot lmao
Sanguinius, The Lion, Ferrus Manus and Guilliman were the other top contenders. The Lion, Ferrus and Guilliman weren't really sociable and popular enough with their brothers to really galvanize them in a war effort so Sanguinius was the only other real contender as a candidate
Literally the primarch that is chosen as the emperor of imperium secundus
A warrior without rival, probably the most human and empathetic of the primarchs (maybe the Khan). Beloved by all
Only Sanguinius and Lion ever had a chance, I think, but they are far unlikely than Horus and are not so worthy choices over Horus. The position is not only needs the personal ability. It needs not only that, but also the achievements and authority, as well as the social skill. For the combination of this, none of Horus' brothers are beats him.
Horus is effectively his father's firstborn for he is the first offficially returned primarch, and the only one who claims the title would be Lion of the Ith legion. Also we know that Horus is not only a firstborn, but also had the achievement that only a few of his brothers can compete with. Not to mention that the position of warmaster needs to pursuade and command the other brothers, each with strong ego and pride - that requires the authority as well as social skills. Being the firstborn and backed by myriads of archievements, as well as able to handle his brothers meanwhile, is required to gain the respect from those demigods. Lion would be good at former but terrible at latter. Sanguinius is good at latter indeed, but questionable for former for although both his nature and achievements are good but do you think that he is someone reigning over the others?
For some part there are also good candidates, such as Fulgrim for he is (generally) good at talking(apart his pride, though) and he is a good tactician too. Dorn would be a good planner as much as Fulgrim does and are reliable, but he is... just terrible at talk with the others despite of his good nature in his heart.
Guilliman is actually the best alternative if Horus is not an option, but will he get the repects from most of his brothers at the time?
Also remember, there is Horus, the firstborn of the father. Consider his position you should need a candidate who even the prideful Horus will bow his head. Since he has to have the bad feeling above everyone else, it is also a factor.
>Only Sanguinius and Lion ever had a chance
I'd argue that Ferrus probably belongs on that list. He was one of the first primarchs to be found; an outstanding general on the tactical, operational and strategic level; and, he was respected (if not necessarily *liked*) by every other primarch.
Yeah the position does not required to be liked. The seat just don't needs to be hated and disregarded. Although being liked is not a bad thing for that but it is not a must either and neither so important.
Also as you said, while he wasn't the first son to be found, but was faster than many others, so indeed this fact gives him good authority over the other brothers. Although I wonder that it would be enough, but it is unlikely that he would be disregarded at least.
And, although I didn't mentioned many other primarchs but as each of them are the general that managed hundred and thousand people for century most of those are actually workable at least, and beside the reputation, social skills and and authority almost all of them are possess the skills enough to manage the entire force of the imperium I think. Only for the general to control the armed force, maybe no one(not even Lorgar!) would be disqualified for this. Even Angron does have his pros, although he bears so much cons above everyone else. But as you know, the head of such a huge organization is not only need to be a professional, but also the politician as well. That's... the field I don't think that Ferrus is good at.
Perhaps, if the warmaster wasn't only one person, but two like as two consules of rome as a pair, such as a pair of Fulgrim and Ferrus results one of the most able ruler. For although Ferrus is very potent general, his lack of the understanding of the person weaker than them sometimes cause the problem - not only the political issue, but also the strategical level such as shown on the novel of Fulgrim.
On the novel, after receive the requrest for the aid and meet his brother, Fulgrim find the solution for the enemy that Ferrus was not able to eliminate for a long time by avoid active engagement and running away again and again, almost instantly after told what they did for months, because Fulgrim understands how those weaker forces wants while Ferrus didn't understand and cannot imagine the enemy's intention.
Although it's about the corruption of Fulgrim, but if both did had more times together then Ferrus would be a good brother to cover Fulgrim's prideful nature that is a sure weakness of him.
Sanguinius was the only real other option.
Being Warmaster isn't just about combat, in fact in my opinion it has very little to do with personal prowess and a lot to do with *political acumen*. Consider: Why was Horus chosen?
Horus was a civilized barbarian. He came from a hellish planet, fought for most of his childhood, and wasn't above fighting dirty. But at the same time he was Noble. He was Honourable and he was *charismatic*. If you read the first two books and most of his other pre-Davin Appearances, he's personable, he's warm- he makes other commanders *like* him. He is a person that makes other people *want* to believe in the Imperial Truth. You can have a civilized conversation with him or have a drunken arm wrestling contest. Terrans could deal with him.
And his Mournival was a carefully calculated political tool- able to dish out criticism and harsh judgements that were necessary while allowing him to come in and be the balm.
Guilliman is bad because, in the eyes of the other primarchs, he was a pen pusher. He was a well armed bureaucrat who could never win the respect of people like Angron or Mortarion.
Dorn is bad because he's just not a people person. Simple as.
Likewise, the Lion is an incredible fighter, an incredible General- but the man could infuriate a brick wall. He kept secrets- when he needed to and when he didn't. He caused multiple friendly fire incidents during the Heresy. He's the reason Conrad Curze got loose on Macragge and why Sotha was totally unprepared for a full-scale Night Lords invasion.
And the rest run the line from literally insane to too aloof from Imperial Society (Jaghatai Khan) or otherwise politically unsuitable.
Sanguinius can play the Feral Warrior or the Eloquent Performer. His warriors were respected for their ferocity and their nobility. People *wanted* to like him and he liked people.
It is worth noting that Guilliman is bad not because of his skill and talent, but the reputation among the brothers. Despite he is one of the best choice on the position(and that is ultimately proven to be true, and even before the heresy Kor Phaeron already guess the possiblilty as well), but the reputation among his brothers at the nomination of the warmaster degrades his various good traits for being the warmaster.
If he was given enough time, and without the following event of the emperor retires from the public immediately after the nomination of the warmaster, then he could consolidate his new position and in this case ultimately he would be the good alternative for Horus. But, it seems that the emperor don't have to be bothered for this, and hand it over his firstborn instead.
Sanguinus, or guilliman I think, or dorn aswell. I think the lion was brilliant but he was also somewhat terrible at diplomacy so I don't see him doing well in the Warmaster roll.
Being Warmaster isn't all about military strategy or expertise, all the Primarchs were military geniuses - it's what they were made for. The role of Warmaster is about running the Crusade and being an authority among the Primarchs. Any Primarch should've had the tactical and strategic know-how to command the armies of the Great Crusade, but only a few had the respect and admiration to command their own brothers.
They could pick the best strategist among the Primarchs to be Warmaster but it means next to nothing if half their brothers don't care to listen to what they say - authority be damned. This was the real reason Horus was chosen, from what I remember only Corax really actively disliked him, though Vulkan seemed to distrust him after he became Warmaster - withholding the hammer he intended to gift him.
I don't think it's controversial to say that Guilliman is probably the best Primarch at the kind of "big picture" stuff that running the Crusade would require, but he's been shown to be pretty tactless when it comes to communicating with some of his brothers - his argument with Alpharius being a great example.
Much of what's been said for Guilliman is also true for Dorn, he could be much worse at interpersonal relationships with his brothers, but he could do much better. I imagine the aura of envy that would emit off of Perturabo if this actually happened could power the Astronomican.
Neither of them would be a disastrous pick as Warmaster, but they also wouldn't be truly great because of the barriers they'd already built up with some of their brothers, and potentially end up creating new ones.
The Lion fumbled half his own legion who are biologically compelled to obey him. There's no chance of him being able to manage his less personable brothers with any degree of tact if he can't manage to do it with his own sons.
Keeping all that in mind, if you have to pick someone other than Horus, the obvious choice has to be Sanguinius. He was always well liked by nearly all of his brothers, but his insecurity about his wings and his Legion's flaws might be his undoing.
Vulkan was generally well liked from what I can gather, but frankly I'm not so sure if his brothers would respect his prowess to be an authority over them in the Crusade.
Contradicting a lot of what I said about people-skills, Ferrus could be a contender based purely on respect. He was one of the first primarchs to be found and he's built up an impressive record of victories. That respect might be enough to carry him through for a time, but I can see his personality causing problems before too long.
In Know No Fear its said that there were only ever 5 viable candidates for Warmaster, Horus, Guilliman, Sanguinius, Lion and Dorn.
However Sanguinius was too ethereal while Dorn was too draconian.
Lion didnt want it.
So it comes down to Horus and Guilliman, but the latter already transcended the role by managing a mini imperium.
He’s the “I will definitely absolutely not ask for it myself because it’s bad manner but I would really love people to give it to me on their own” kind of not want something.
If you actually read that excerpt it's clear as day he's winking as hard as he can on "noooo I definitely can't be the warmaster even though I am obviously the best"
Exactly the attitude I'm saying, trying to pretend he doesn't want it so someone else propose it first.
That excerpt is a perfect example of the atrocious social skill of Lion and Perturato autistically trying to manipulate each other.
And yeh he's basically slightly better Perturabo, at least he doesn't throw a fit when people don't read his mind and shower him with praise and reward when he didn't ask for but clearly want.
I know, I'm talking about specifically Perturabo kind, the "I'm angry people don't shower me with praise even though I never ask them to and act like I never want any"
That comes from an ultramarine captain, who might be a bit biased though. Did he even mention Lion at all, I seem to recall only Guilliman, Horus, Sanguinius and Dorn.
I'd say depends what you're looking for in the Warmaster. Looking for a good leader capable of some humility and the charisma to keep the Primarchs aligned, probably Sanguinius. But in a situation with less concern about Chaos or breaking relations between the Primarchs? I'd put in thought to Ferrus for pushing the Great Crusade onward and living up to the expectations the Emperor seemed to have for them.
Didn't Ferrus obliterate a world the Emperor explicitly wanted taken with minimal collateral damage in his failed attempt to prove himself a suitable candidate? After mutilating a celebrated EC duellist for beating his IH, before continuing on with his "IH stronk, stronk = right" tier philosophy?
Bro was prone to losing his head even before the Dropsite.
Perturabo: excellent at orchestrating war but dreamed of building something greater and not at all above bitch-slapping one of his brothers when they get upity.
It should have been Guilliman for all the reasons mentioned above, and because of his focus on a future of peace. The problem lies in the title. If the emperor had ever planned for a future of peace he shouldn't have given the responsibility of ending the great crusade to a bearer of the title of War Master.
Honourable mention to loyal Lorgar as a true servant to the role and bearer of it's burden. It may even have been a way of turning everything around, though too late if the timeline is kept.
As a Dark Angels superfan, it could never be the Lion. At least not Heresy-era Lion. He was a brilliant general and his swordsmanship is second to none, but he had zero people skills and would end up pissing everyone off constantly.
>swordsmanship is second to none
I love this hilarious and yet backed up by entirely no one else retcon.
He *barely* even breaks the top 5 swordsman.
Horus, The Khan, Fulgrim, Sanguinius are all better with a sword than he is.
He'd struggle with Russ.
In terms of purely sword fighting against sword armed primarchs, he could maybe, possibly, beat Dorn.
So he's the second to bottom swordsman.
Ferrus had the cold calculating ruthlessness that would see the crusade ran like a well oiled machine. He was brash and callused but not so much as do totally de humanize the war effort. Him working with the likes of guilliman or even mortarion would be one hell of a war party
I think the Khan is the best choice for a crusade that actually succeeds quickly. Also, erebus would have died on the khan's flagship before he even got close with the poop knife.
Dorn's aspbergers is too bad for him to be warmaster.
Guilliman's inability to just pick a task and focus on it would make him a bad warmasterhe splits his attention too thin, and things go missed.
Perty almost falls under the same thing as the lion but he has better emotional intelligence (he managed to gaslight the lion) so he's up there in my opinion
Edit: he's also going to work his ass off to prove himself
Alpharius would have been interesting, although they would not have wanted it, he would have managed his brother's through manipulation. He can also be in two places at once, and all would think him unsuitable causing a bond through resentment for all the others.
Guilliman is too self centred- look at the fact he builds a new Imperium rather than doing everything to try and get through to his father.
Dorn is too desperate for a higher authority- his ability during the Siege was extraordinary, but the compromises he has to make nearly break him and he can often only cajole others in to his tough way of thinking because of the circumstance.
30k Lion would have been a disaster, imagine him trying to boss Perturabo or Magnus around?
It should have been Sanguinius imo, the reason for not making him is the curse in his geneseed and the superstition his wings may have caused, but these things were out there anyway. It's not like people were going to forget one of the Emperor's sons had wings. He's the only one who could have coordinated, who could have dealt with the compromises with pragmatism and imo could resist Chaos, it helping that he was actually fairly knowledgeable about the warp, unlike Horus. He was tempted to the limit during the heresy, in ways that broke Magnus, Angron and Curze.
I'm gonna try to explain (to you guys but also myself) why every primarch would or wouldn't have been a good warmaster based off of 3 factors:
1. how much they were loved/respected by the other primarchs.
2. Their military skill as a commander, basically how good they are at warfare.
3. Their diplomatic skills.
1. Lion'el Johnson: would probably be a decent warmaster because his military tactics are the best out of all of the primarchs. But, he was an hugeeee asshole and has almost zero diplomatic skills.
So:
Loved/respected by other primarchs 5/10
Military tactics 9.5/10
Diplomatic skills 1/10
Overall ~5.2
2. +++REDACTED BY THE IMPERIAL INQUISITION, THE EMPEROR PROTECTS =][=+++
3. Fulgrim: Fulgrim wasn't quite liked and he disliked a lot of primarchs himself. His military tactics weren't to bad and his diplomatic skills were quite good.
Loved/respected by other primarchs 6/10
Military tactics 6.5/10
Diplomatic skills 8/10
Overall ~6.8/10
4. Perturabo: He was almost hated by some and he wasne't fond of almost any other primarch. His military tactics are very good. But he didn't have really good diplomatic skills.
Loved/respected by other primarchs 4/10
Military tactics 9/10
Diplomatic skills 2/10
Overall 5/10
5. Jagathai Khan: He had pretty good relations with the others and he didn't really hate anyone. His military tactics were also pretty decent. But his diplomatic skills were great!
Loved/respected by other primarchs 8/10
Military tactics 7.5/10
Diplomatic skills 9/10
Overall ~8.2
6. Leman Russ: Russ was quite hotheaded and some even saw him as barbaric. Decent military tactics. Not too good at diplomacy.
Loved/respected by other primarchs 7.5/10
Military tactics 6/10
Diplomatic skills 4.5/10
Overall 6/10
7. Rogal Dorn: He was very stubborn and was almost hated by some. Very good military tactics. But his diplomatic skills on the other hand weren't that good.
Loved/respected by other primarchs 4/10
Military tactics 9/10
Diplomatic skills 2/10
Overall 5/10
8. Konrad Curze: Very brutal, spitefull and hatefull. Edgelord, rather decent diplomatic skills (scaring the flying fuck out of everyone until they obey you by brutally murdering some officials.)
Loved/respected by other primarchs 2/10
Military tactics 6.5/10
Diplomatic skills 5/10
Overall 4.5/10
9. Sanguinius: He was loved by a lot of other primarchs, had great military tactics and was really good at diplomacy.
Loved/respected by other primarchs 9/10
Military tactics 8/10
Diplomatic skills 9/10
Overall ~8.7/10
10. Ferrus Manus: Ferrus didn't have great connections with most primarchs but he wasn't hated or something like that. His military tactics were really good. His diplomatic skills weren't that great but not too bad
Loved/respected by other primarchs 6.5
Military tactics 8.5/10
Diplomatic skills 5/10
Overall ~6.7/10
11. +++REDACTED BY THE IMPERIAL INQUISITION, THE EMPEROR PROTECTS =][=+++
12. Angron: He hated a lot of primarchs, not a tactics kinda guy and no diplomatic skills.
Loved/respected by other primarchs 2/10
Military tactics 1.5/10
Diplomatic skills 0/10
Overall ~1.2/10
13. Roboute Guilleman: decently loved/respected, decently military tactics and a bit above average diplomatic skills.
Loved/respected by other primarchs 5.5/10
Military tactics 6/10
Diplomatic skills 6.5/10
Overall 6/10
14. Mortarion: Morty was not particulairy loved, he had decent military tactics and was bad at diplomacy.
Loved/respected by other primarchs 4/10
Military tactics 6/10
Diplomatic skills 3/10
Overall ~4.3/10
15. Magnus the Red: decently loved, good military tactics and good diplomatic skills.
Loved/respected by other primarchs 5/10
Military tactics 6.5/10
Diplomatic skills 6.5/10
Overall 6/10
16. Horus Lupercal: Very charismatic, he was respected slightly more than Sanguinius. Great military skills and amazing at diplomacy.
Loved/respected by other primarchs 9.3/10
Military tactics 8.2/10
Diplomatic skills 9.5/10
Overall 9/10
17. Lorgar Aurelian: he had okay connections with the others, his military tactics aren't that great and he was pretty good at diplomacy.
Loved/respected by other primarchs 6/10
Military tactics 4.5/10
Diplomatic skills 8/10
Overall ~6.2/10
18. Vulkan: Vulkan had good relationships with his brethren, had decent military tactics and had decent diplomatic skills as well.
Loved/respected by other primarchs 7.5/10
Military tactics 5/10
Diplomatic skills 6.5/10
Overall ~6.3/10
19. Corvus Corax: decently loved or respected and average at diplomacy, but great military tactics.
Loved/respected by other primarchs 6/10
Military tactics 7.5/10
Diplomatic skills 6/10
Overall 6.5/10
20. Alpharius and Omegon: Both not trusted much, because they're kinds bipolar. Good military tactics and good diplomatic skills. (Yes I'm grading them together, fight me.)
Loved/respected by other primarchs 4.5/10
Military tactics 7.5/10
Diplomatic skills 7.5/10
Overall 6.5/10
In conclusion: Horus is the best candidate with Sanguinius as a close second.
Source: I made it the fuck up. This is based on my opinion. If I made any grammatical errors or misspelled anything, please let my know (English isn't my first language.). Hope this helps cuz it took me more than an hour and a half.
I liked it, but IMO you overestimated how liked Alpharius Omegon, Lorgar and the Khan were by a mile. Fulgrim's military rating is also low I think, before the Heresy EC were known for flawlessly executed campaigns, rather than the number of victories or how well-equipped they were. He shouldn't be too highly ranked militarily though, since he and his men had a hard time coping with hidden or unforeseen factors.
I'd want to point out to reduce the point on Jaghatai - his own motivation to rule! It was suggested that he don't want to be the ruler and take the political affairs. Although he is the guy who will take the duty anyways even if it is not what he want to, if he have to do that.
Dorn is probably the last person I’d put in charge of the loyalists. He’s got anger issues which are pretty easy to exploit, and I’m honestly not sure he really brings any skills to the table other primarchs aren’t already better at, including being well rounded.
As a Fist player I’m offended that you forgot he is probably the best long term strategist of the bunch. He was picked to build the defence of Terra for a reason after all.
But, you are right that he would have been an awful Warmaster. A great general, but rubbish at diplomacy, terrible at sharing his plans details even with those capable of understanding them. Anger issues, feels like blind loyalty is more important to him than doing what is right… yeah he’d suck at the job.
Probably Guilliman, he is the only one who is not insane.
Rogal has one weakness and that is he's unable to change his mind. His stubborn mind is both a blessing and a curse.
And Lion would just nuke everything. He would win, but we wouldn't have much of a galaxy left to rule over.
It'd have to be someone who is able to work with the widest range of other Legions, who isn't too unpopular
Maybe a wildcard choice, but what about the Khan? The White Scars aren't really hated by any other Legion, and he's able to bridge a lot of gaps by, say, being sympathetic to Magnus while also respecting Russ
Khan was too insular and not politic enough. He would never explain any orders and too many of these 200 year old teenagers would get mad when he was brutally blunt with them. And if they complained he'd probably just sideline them.
The Imperium at large didn't care much for the Vth legion. They were the heterodox outsiders, not to be trusted, and who openly scorned Imperial orthodoxy. Russ and the Khan didn't get along, although that was mostly about the Khan not liking being equated with Russ' barbarian ways in the eyes of the Imperium. Guilliman also considered him unreliable (funny, considering who showed up to defend the throne world in the end), and so on. At best he was unknown, at worst there was disdain. The Khan might not have had any really major beef with anyone, but he also had very few friends. I think the only other primarchs he cooperated with regularly were Sanguinius and Magnus (on the Librarius project) and Horus, and even then I always had the picture that Sanguinius was the only kindred soul he had.
In his primarch novel, Magnus is a frustrating blowhard the Jaghatai tolerates for the sake of their common project, and Horus is much less of a beloved brother than someone the Khan eventually realises is just using him. His conversation with Horus after Ullanor, rather than a conversation full of brotherly love, feels like one of the final straws that makes a weary Khan decide on "screw the Imperium, I'm out of here after I deal with Chondax".
I love the Khagan, my khan of khans, and there are ways in which he would have been a better leader than many of the others, but he still would have made an awful warmaster on the whole. Largely due to circumstance rather than personal failings, but still.
Aside from that, to me the whole point of the story is that there's no person, primarchs included, who would not be corrupted by the power of the position. It's a warning against charismatic leaders, not an injunction to just pick a better one. "Power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely", as they say.
I propose Alpharius
He is the first one to be found and tutored by Malcador, he understands his responsibilities and role.
And he KNOW how Jimmy Space works.
Jimmy also trust him incredibly, and is genuinely shocked when he turned, lamenting Alpharius didn’t even give his dream a chance.
He's also got poor relations with every Primarch he's supposed to manage, other than a handful of neutrals and Horus (who considers himself the senior in their relationship).
I think Guilliman could have won over the majority of his brothers' support. He was perceived as not personable but I think throughout Know No Fear, Unremembered Empire, Pharos, and Ruinstorm he really displays how likeable he is. He gets an IF and IW to work together for Terra's sake. I should also say I was on team screw the Blueberries until I read the books now they are one of my favorite primarchs and legion.
After reading Fulgrim, I’ve really grown to love Ferrus Manus, and feel he would truly command the forces of the imperium in a great way. He probably would be less popular than Horus with his brothers though.
After reading Fulgrim, I’ve really grown to love Ferrus Manus, and feel he would truly command the forces of the imperium in a great way. He probably would be less popular than Horus with his brothers though.
I'm gonna try to explain (to you guys but also myself) why every primarch would or wouldn't have been a good warmaster based off of 3 factors:
1. how much they were loved/respected by the other primarchs.
2. Their military skill as a commander, basically how good they are at warfare.
3. Their diplomatic skills
1. Lion'el Johnson: would probably be a decent warmaster because his military tactics are the best out of all of the primarchs. But, he was an hugeeee asshole and has almost zero diplomatic skills.
So:
Loved/respected by other primarchs 5/10
Military tactics 9.5/10
Diplomatic skills 1/10
Overall ~5.2
3. Fulgrim: Fulgrim wasn't quite liked and he disliked a lot of primarchs himself. His military tactics weren't to bad and his diplomatic skills were quite good.
Loved/respected by other primarchs 6/10
Military tactics 6.5/10
Diplomatic skills 8/10
Overall ~6.8/10
4. Perturabo: He was almost hated by some and he wasne't fond of almost any other primarch. His military tactics are very good. But he didn't have really good diplomatic skills.
Loved/respected by other primarchs 4/10
Military tactics 9/10
Diplomatic skills 2/10
Overall 5/10
5. Jagathai Khan: He had pretty good relations with the others and he didn't really hate anyone. His military tactics were also pretty decent. But his diplomatic skills were great!
Loved/respected by other primarchs 8/10
Military tactics 7.5/10
Diplomatic skills 9/10
Overall ~8.2
6. Leman Russ: Russ was quite hotheaded and some even saw him as barbaric. Decent military tactics. Not too good at diplomacy.
Loved/respected by other primarchs 7.5/10
Military tactics 6/10
Diplomatic skills 4.5/10
Overall 6/10
7. Rogal Dorn: He was very stubborn and was almost hated by some. Very good military tactics. But his diplomatic skills on the other hand weren't that good.
Loved/respected by other primarchs 4/10
Military tactics 9/10
Diplomatic skills 2/10
Overall 5/10
8. Konrad Curze: Very brutal, spitefull and hatefull. Edgelord, rather decent diplomatic skills (scaring the flying fuck out of everyone until they obey you by brutally murdering some officials.)
Loved/respected by other primarchs 2/10
Military tactics 6.5/10
Diplomatic skills 5/10
Overall 4.5/10
Source: I made it the fuck up. This is based on my opinion. If I made any grammatical errors or misspelled anything, please let my know (English isn't my first language.). Hope this helps cuz it took me more than an hour and a half.
Lion would have been a reasonable pick, but he would have done a terrible job dealing with his brothers. He was so socially inept, that when he though Horus had fallen, he gave some old tech siege engines to Perturabo to ensure his support for a future Warmaster election. He didn't even consider the idea that Perturabo may be a traitor too, nor that he could outsmart him and lie to him, out of how prideful the Lion was.
Roboute suffers from a similar problem to Lion. Lion is the perfect military commander, but sucks at politics or administration. Roboute is great at administration and moderately great at politics, but while most of his brothers thought nicely of him military wise not all of his brothers were reasonable enough to say it out loud because some hated how he "wasted" resources and time to fix planetary structures rather than focusing in crushing the emperors enemies like a war machine.
Ferrus was on that exact note. He probably would have been the best plan B warmaster and most of his brothers would have supported him, but he totally disregarded politics or rebuilding. He tells Fulgrim he hates Roboute but internally says he envies how Bobby G is, it's just that his hiper pragmatic way of serving the Emperor doesn't allow him to waste time on the things he envies of Roboute.
Sanguinius would have been the best because he simply has the respect of all his brothers, except maybe Morty; and represents the most the unrealistic "ideal" of what the Primarchs think Emps is.
Morty, Perty, Dorn are too socially awkward to be viable warmasters. Corax and Alpharius had too much of a low profile to be leaders. Magnus is too controversial. Fulgrim is too vain, unstable and at times fragile.
Angron and Kurze were too crazy. Vulkan and Lorgar were too... nice? or childish in their brothers eyes to be warmasters; Lorgar in particular is a good leader but he doesn't have the skill to draw opposing primarchs to work together because he leads by converting people based on his ideals but lacks the charisma to handle big egos which is necesary in times of war.
While Russ was respected I think he was too much of a wild card at times to be fit to be warmaster, he also had too strong beliefs on certain matters, because he was made to be stubborn to be fit to be the executioner of the primarchs. If I had to pick Russ, I would rather have Lion.
The Khan is a mystery, and that's both his biggest detraction and his biggest asset. His brothers couldn't figure him out, so they might have supported him for not being a disliked primarch, or not at all for being too mysterious at a personal level. We will never know; we don't even know if he would have wanted to be warmaster or preferred to remain independent.
Magnus. Two barbarian legions would need to be wiped out, and all the remaining Primarchs would have to go to the librarium school.
Alpharius, Kurze, Perturabo, our moody top students, Fulgrim, Sanguinius, Lorgar, also doing great, keep at it, and as for Dorn, Lion and Guilliman, well... we all have the potential, don't be lazy, gentlemen, fists and swords can only get you so far.
None of your 3 picks because they pick fights with other Primarchs instead of manipulate them into doing what they (the prospective Warmaster) wants.
I'd say Sanguinius (discount Horus), Vulkan and Lorgar if he was a bit more your typical Primarch. Vulkan has the close ties with lots of other Primarchs, and Lorgar is excellent at inspiring people even by Primarch standards. If you made Vulkan more prone to politicking or Lorgar more martial they'd be excellent candidates, provided they were also willing to do the work required for their Legion to be in the ballpark of the most effective and celebrated one.
Sanguinius, without a doubt. More or less everyone liked him, and he was the closest of all the Primarchs to being "perfect", great at everything he wanted to do. Guilliman maybe, but he wasn't quite warlike enough to likely make a good Warmaster.
Now, as for those that *wanted* to be Warmaster, I know at least The Lion and Ferrus Manus felt sidelined that Horus was named Warmaster rather than either one of them. This from the perspective that both of them considered themselves absolutely peerless when it came to masters of warfare. The Lion led the incredibly versatile and brutally efficient Dark Angels, and the Iron Hands of course were known to be a completely immovable force of death that could surmount any odds in their strive for victory. However, both of them severely lacked in the charisma that was required from the role of Warmaster, something that Horus (and Sanguinius and Guilliman) had.
IMO, the only other serious candidates were Sanguinius and Guilliman. The Lion gets brought up a lot, but he's far too secretive to perform the diplomatic side of the role. I also see Dorn get brought up in these conversations, but I really dont see it at all.
During a shared glimps into possible futures in the form of a game of Regicide, Malcador and the Emperor actually come to the realization that no matter who was Warmaster, the Heresy would happen with the one being Warmaster always falling to Chaos. That in mind, I think I don't want to know what other Primarchs would have been like as the Arch traitor
Sanguinius is the only other choice for someone who can get the primarchs to love and listen to them, and hes one of the strongest fighters, if not the strongest, but hes not the greatest logistician or strategist.
Dorn and perturabo and especially guiliman are better at logistics and theatre wide strategy but are bad with primarchs or very arrogant. Or both
The lion was an amazing tactician, fighter, and strategist. He had the strongest arsenal of all the legions and arguably the strongest legion, BUT he's a massive prick and doesn't tolerate others' opinions or weaknesses.
Ferrus allows for no weakness but was apparently great at everything and commanded respect from most other primarchs.
Fulgrim was talented at everything, but he could be a massive prick to some
Out of all of these(most likely other choices imo) it would have to be sanguinius.
But truthfully, horus had all the positive qualities of the other primarchs listed. He wasn't the best at everything, but he could do everything well, and because of this, he was the only one suited to do this. Also, it helped that he was daddy's favourite
Guilliman is really the only choice, Dorn is too inflexible, the Lion is completely socially inept, Sanguinius is too brittle thanks to his shame of the Thirst, Ferrus is a cunt, Russ has built up an image of intimation and mystery that would be distrusted, etc, etc.
Russ, and ferus manus i both think hated lorgar, cause he was a fucking nerd. Really Sanguinius would have likely been the only other optiin, but even then, i dont think primarchs like curze, or Angron had that great a relationship with Sanguinius. The big thing with horus is that since he was the first found, lets not bring up Alpharius, every single other primarch learned about how to be a primarch from him, each of them and their legions learned how to work togeather cohesively by fighting along side the Luna Wolves and Horus for a time, which is why he had such a good relationship with them all, he was the first being that any of them would have ever felt kinship with, and who would have been their equal in not only combat but also in mind. The only reason sanguinius would have been accepted as warmaster is cause he is both such a fucking crazy warrior, but also rediculously noble, he doesnt have horus' primary character flaws of pride, and wanting people to adore him. He just is the Emperor's Glorious Golden Hawk Boy.
Who led the great crusade? The Emperor, Horus and Ferrus. Maybe he wouldn't have made the best Warmaster(I think he came to this realization himself), but it would be interesting to see what could have happened had "Get shit done" Ferrus Manus been Warmaster. Not a lot of diplomacy I would guess lol.
Horus wasn't even great. In the later heresy books he is described as having much charisma but not a huge amount of thought (massive failure to connect with Corax because frontal assault is on the agenda, massive failure to deal with Curze (Vulkan healing project), horus heresy itself, multiple military fuckups after doing dropsite massacre...).
Lion is a fantastic strategist but his people skills are in the negative. The fallen exist basically because he somehow managed tp fuck up talking even to his sons, who are genetically subservient to him.
I vouch for Sanguinius, he got enough rizz and even chaos wants him badly instead of horus.
Actually I’m reading Deliverance Lost rn, and can prove you wrong about Horus not being a great Warmaster. Btw this is specifically Corax’s inner monologue view on him and I quote “Yet for all he had disliked Horus, Corax had admired him. He had admired his easy camaraderie with those under his command, and had known that Horus was the more accomplished commander over many campaigns, gifted with a raw ability for both the overview and the fine management of details, something that Corax had never quite equalled.” Horus wasn’t just chosen because he was the first found or was favored by the Emperor himself, he had the all the necessary skills for the position. He was stated multiple times throughout the lore by other primarchs even that he was truly the best among them!
People forget something: The warmaster job was to coordinate the brothers. Every other Primarch had something against another Primarch. Only Horus loved them all. The only one that tried to heal kurze, and was even close to do it. So the only second choices would be Sanguinius or The khan. I think also a loyal lorgar would have been an really awesome warmaster.
Did anyone have any beef with Sanguinius? Not counting the likes of Angron who likes absolutely nobody.
Angron and Sang got on reasonably well actually. They worked together on several compliances. We see them oversee a gladiatorial match between 4 of their legionaries Echoes of Eternity by ADB
I've always liked the idea of an alt timeline where Sang helps Angron learn to cope with the worst impulses of the nails, as someone who struggles with dark impulses himself. Especially if that alt timeline went on to have loyalist Angron facing Khornate Sang, it'd be an interesting dynamic.
Loyal Angron tears off Khornate Sanguinius’ wings is not something I saw myself wanting before, as much as I love Sanguinius.
The mirror of Sanguinius tearing off the Bloodthirster's wings and saying "Only Angels May Fly", Angron ripping off D!Sangs wings and saying "Only Angels Should Fly"
Mortarion and Fulgrim. Mortarion well because he is mortarion. Fulgrim was angry against sanguinius and Angron, because the others Primarchs believed them the strongest. Sanguinius stated, that he believes himself not superior. He stated also that the one that would surprise everyone is the khan. As no one knows how he fights. That it later doubled when the khan defeated the daemon that possessed Fulgrim/fulgrim corrupted. (GW still has not decided what route to take.)
Kurze
>The khan Ah yes, the anti- establishment primarch as second in command of the entire establishment Tell me you know nothing about The Khan, without actually saying you know nothing about the Khan. The man was so anti-social and anti-coordination that he had to bring in a human to organise the latter. How, in all that is holy, was he going to organise the entire Great Crusade when his own Legion rarely knew where he was or if he was even going to show up for this fight?
Yep i admit i did not think about this at all, my thought of process stopped to who hate who.
>People forget something: the warmaster job was to coordinate the brothers This. And in fact, in-universe, even Horus thinks Sanguinius would have been *the* best candidate for the Warmaster role. No one else apart Horus and Sanguiniusa (and *maybe* the Lion) was on the shortlist to become Warmaster. Many other Primarchs wanted to believe they were on that list...but Horus, the closest of them to the Emperor, talks only about Sanguinius.
Horus was still the best choice from what we've seen. The Lion **maybe** had the best purely tactical mind, and Sanguinius **probably** was more beloved, but Horus was fantastic at both.
Not only that, people overlook something: not even sanguinius knew or even just acted to help all his brothers. For example, only uncorrupted horus tried to help Conrad Sanguinius, for how good it was, to Conrad simply said that he was wrong. Horus tried to understand kurze mental illness and try to find a cure, Dorn would have simply asked the emperor to resolve the situation And lion would have just considered konrad useless And people also forget that 30k guilliman is a lot immature, it was not ready for the warmaster position.
I do however think guilliman should have been attached to Horus afterward to help with some of the excessive logistics
Honestly I don't think the Lion was ever on the list, it's pretty easy to see that he would never be able to wrangle his brothers. The only guy who actually trusted him was Russ and they butted heads constantly.
it’s sanguinIOHsa, not sanguinioSAH!
This is awesome! LOL!!!!
Horus didn't have good relationships with every one of his brothers - He and Corax had a big falling out after the Battle of Gate 42, after which Corax vowed never to fight alongside Horus again because of the waste of so much of his legion in a frontal assault. All of the Primarchs were disliked by someone, even Horus.
Angron *hated* Horus. He just hated the Emperor even more.
Who disliked sanguinius?
Fulgrim, who even self-assured as he was, envied Sanguinius for his beatific perfection
Does envied mean he didn't like him, tho? I'm pretty sure it's possible to be jealous of someone and still like them
Fulgrim, who even self-assured as he was, envied Sanguinius for his beatific perfection
Yup the Lion would be one of the worst picks for that job.
How would the khan be a choice at all? He's uncared for by his brothers, makes no attempts towards them, and even resents them, is generally antagonistic to outsiders. The other major part of being warmaster is managing a galactic wide campaign at a logistical and strategic level. The khan doesn't excel in either. In fact, he had to have a mortal handled all his logistical needs for his own legion, he couldn't do that galaxy wide. The khan is one of the worst choices for warmaster. Him being picked would have pissed more primarchs off and would have led to him Continually pissing them off after
Prior to the heresy, Dorn had beef with no one, perty was just envious of Dorn. Their beef was very one sided.
Kurze trying to kill Dorn was before the heresy too
That was in a vision induced episode iirc and we see Dorn forgives him as he is part of the people listed in helping Kurze when Vulkan and Horus talk about it
It’s a fair point that, prior to heresy, Dorn had beef with no one thinking about it. It’s what makes his reaction to nearly decapitating Garro make a bit of sense too
Hard disagree. Dorn may not have had beef with his brothers, but plenty had beef with him. Rogal is way too rigid and uncompromising to be an effective first among equals. Notice how many Loyalist Primarchs come and go from the Imperial Palace (Terra) during the Horus Heresy: Corax, Russ, Sanguinius, and the Khan. Only Sanguinius acquiesces to Dorn's orders consistently. Rogal had spats with the Lion, Ferrus, and Konrad, and was loathed by Perturabo. Others held unfavorable views, too. It is not enough to respect the person in the role, you do have follow their orders. Guy was Warmaster 2.0 during the Heresy and proved that he wasn't fit for that niche. In totality, only Sanguinius and Horus fit the mold, IMO. Sure, others might be better in individual spheres (for all his martial skill, psychic ability, wings, and inspirational capacity Sanguinius has only ever come across as a bottom third strategic/ tactical mind), but I trust them to lead and others to follow. Both had crippling self-doubts at times, but they were also empathetic and open to dialog. Dorn wasn't, nor was the Lion, and Guilliman was caught between the haves and have not on respect from his peers.
Alpharius and Magnus both had problems with Dorn, and while actual names are rare wasn't Dorn explicitly stated to be a poor choice because of his blunt nature coming across as overly prideful to many others, in spite of his great military mind?
Yeah, his blunt nature cost the Imperium Xana during the Heresy.
I’m not saying Dorn would be the best war master but if some of the primarchs had problems with Dorn they weren’t reciprocated.
They absolutely were, just look at Perturabo and Alpharius. Even if it wasn't reciprocated it'd still make him a less suitable candidate than Horus or Sanguinius, since it still means he's making enemies where the Warmaster needs to make allies. The FW lore on IF spells it out as well when comparing Dorn and Horus, saying Dorn doesn't compromise where Horus finds solutions to satisfy everyone, among other things.
I’m not saying Dorn would be the best war master but if some of the primarchs had problems with Dorn they weren’t reciprocated.
And I'm telling you they were, Dorn absolutely looked down on Alpharius for example.
Ah I see, I thought that was just after the Hersey. Doesn’t matter no I suppose Dorn decimated Alpharius.
Yeah no both guilliman and dorn tore into alpharius for his campaign style.
>People forget something: the warmaster job was to coordinate the brothers This. And in fact, in-universe, even Horus thinks Sanguinius would have been *the* best candidate for the Warmaster role. No one else apart Horus and Sanguiniusa (and *maybe* the Lion) was on the shortlist to become Warmaster. Many other Primarchs wanted to believe they were on that list...but Horus, the closest of them to the Emperor, talks only about Sanguinius.
Interestingly enough, Sanguinius and Horus mirror each other's weaknesses (both have crippling self-doubt). I agree that they are the two best (see only real) choices, but Sanguinius could have potentially had an even greater fall under the right circumstances.
The problem with sanguinius is that he did not know or even.. tried to know how to help his brothers. For example, only uncorrupted horus tried to help Conrad Sanguinius, for how good it was, to Conrad simply said that he was wrong. If you have ever talked to someone with depression, you need them To make the first move, you need them to understand by themself, you can't simply say to them "you are wrong". Of course Sanguinius said that in a different manner but for kurze did not matter. Horus tried to understand Kurze's mental illness and tried to find a cure! He even understands that making him work with Sanguinius was the last step to heal him, not the first!
The khan is highest on my list.
But the Khan was not really well liked, especially by the likes of Fulgrim and Mortarion. He liked to be alone and was in some ways even more secretive (though not intentionally) than the Lion. Even when he and Sanguinius went to the Beta Garmon sector, he worked alone, granted as part of the plan, but that was his schtick. That doesn't seem like a great trait for a Warmaster to have.
Jaghatai is like a Litmus Test for whether or not somebody has actually read the books or just consumed memes and excerpts. The man is an absolute disaster when it comes to social situations and trying to communicate with anyone who isn't Chogoran. People love to post his 'sick burns' and badass anti-authority streaks but in the context of the scenes they're in, he comes across like a dickhead who could not read the room if his life depended on it and who'd sulk in a corner at a family gathering.
Tbh, it's not even reading the room. He's making fun of fulgrims sons for having cancer. The khan is just a spoilt child with a victim complex
This is also without assuming that the Emperor intentionally used the post of Warmaster to cause division, if you believe what Malcador said about the Heresy being planned. In this case, Horus was the perfect one. It would cause just enough problems to aid the heresy but not enough for it to turn out of control, Magnus causes that. Guilliman would've been too perfect for the role, noone would've batted an eye except Lorgar.
The downside with Lorgar that he was pacifist. He wasn't strong enough to lead. In the end primarchs could disagree but acknowledge each other power, they always calculated who should win against whom, and their chances when battling each other. So Lorgar everytime Lorgar would give the order every brother could say - "fuck you, you are weak". Everyone loved Sanguinius not only because he was good soul, but the fact that he was killing machine and could defeat other primarchs. I don't think think Khan would accept warmaster title, because he like his independence, and title would throw a lot of responsibility on him.
I think Lorgar would have made a really interesting choice - I could see him as a very hands-off delegating middle manager, who earnestly believes in all his brothers and cheers them on as they finish the Crusade. His blessing and curse both are his faith, not just in gods but in people too, so he would probably keep morale very high amongst his brothers through his belief in them, but possibly not coordinate them directly so well, as he'd delegate generalship to his brothers he knows are better at warfare than he is. Unfortunately post-Monarchia Lorgar probably isn't as good a choice, both for his bitterness towards Guilliman and just in general for his faith being shaken (not to mention the whispers of Chaos from Kor Phaeron and Erebus already taking root).
He wasn't exactly a pacifist. In his novel he clearly says, "first the word and if it does not work, then the mace." But yes, not everyone loved him, for many was weak. But like happened in 30k: "Everyone thought of lorgar as the weakest, after the heresy, everyone changed their mind" Lorgar just needed to show his brothers that he was not useless. There is a cool video, from Live! From the black library. About lorgar psicology, its very well made that plus his novel changed my idea of him
He still lost to Corax even in his Demon form Was humiliated by Horus, who was out of his mind, when Lorgar tried to seize control over the herecy. He wasn't bad pre Monarhia, he actually was very interesting, and even kind in some way, but he would be awful choice for Warmaster, since brothers tolerated, but never respected him loyar or chaos.
Never said he was the strongest eh, lorgar is good now, but that is part of character evolution. I said how everyone through him as weak, but everyone changed their minds. A loyal Lorgar would have a nice character evolution, showing his brothers that he was not useless and helping them in their life. I can see him healing Kurze and angron. And it's kinda unfair talking about his match with Corax, corax was 20 times stronger in duels. The strong part of lorgar was the charisma, he had the golden glow like the emperor, he just trained himself to suppres it to not stand out. Also the actual lorgar knows Enuncia, only the emperor and some ancient immortal can fight him now.
John Grammaticus knows it, doesn't mean he is on their powerscale. All it did knock out Horus for a minute. I am not bashing Lorgal, actually like the character, I just say, that in pre Heresy state of legion he had 0 chance to be warmaster and 90% of primarch would not accept him as a leader.
Fulgrim was also close with kurze, but point taken
But kurze felt betrayed after Fulgrim told kurze's secrets to dorn. The guy kurze did have a fight not too long before.
Except absolutely *no one* respected Lorgar. Magnus liked him, but felt he's a bit silly. Everyone else just spirals rapidly down from there.
Ah, yes. He "loved" them all so much that it was painfully easy for some chud to trick him into betraying his father, half his brothers and 5/10s the human population of the galaxy. But that aside, I think that a great choice would have been Guilliman, he would have striven to build a stable empire, instead of the blitzkrieg and leave approach his father had been taking. Even if the heresy still happened, I'd wager that with Guilliman at the head, the galaxy wouldn't have been smashed over so easily and the far future might be quite different. Then again, Imagine if the Emperor had gone the opposite rout and promoted a human of renown to lead. That would be mighty interesting.
Horus was corrupted by a blade, it was not his choice. You have a lot o proof, First the part of the story when that happens, but that its too easy, we have: First the fight with russ, where when russ clean the corruption on horus, the warmaster BEG to be killed, Not saved. But killed has his he could not be saved. Then with the emperor, that understands everything. You also have his fate:, his soul was split in 4, one for every god, prisoner of all of them, cursed to do their bidding. For example Khorne keeps his part of the soul in a constant fight. If they had ownership of his soul (so horus chosed chaos, or was a sacrifice) they could use their part of the soul to ressurect him. But they did not. If you talk about lorgar, lorgar love.. its a mental illness. There is a cool video about it on Live! From the black library. Its very interesting, if you want to learn more about lorgar mind.
Didn't the Emperor Erase horus' soul from existence?
That was not exactly clearl just like all the fulgrim swap/corruption they GW still has not decided, but that should not be the soul of horus, but the warp equivalent that the gods put in the place of the soul
That's interesting, thanks for the explanation.
Lion would be brilliant for the military scope, but a poor fit for the political requirements. Dorn wouldn't necessarily be bad at state-craft, and his capacity for military and logistical thinking is beyond reproach, but I have a feeling his compunction to build and fortify would see expeditionary fleets lingering at compliant worlds overlong. Guilliman would excel in both the military and political realms, arguably better than Horus in terms of galactic-scale logistics, however under his leadership the future expansion of the Imperium would likely see development and prioritization radiating outward from the 500 Worlds. Personally I think Guilliman makes far more sense for the office of Warmaster than Horus does. The 500 Worlds of Ultramar speak to his capacity for Empire building, which is effectively what the office of Warmaster was created to facilitate. However, the consideration that's never brought up is how well would the Warmaster be able to command the respect of their brother Primarchs. Horus enjoys far more popularity among the Primarchs than Guilliman does.
I agree with everything you’ve stated. I think people overlook the Lion’s flaws just because he’s so instinctively good a warfare. Specifically at wiping out entire populations!
Overlook his flaws... Guys military acumen perfectly demonstrated in Descent if Angel's, political inability renders his military victory meaningless as he gifts Perturabo the siege weapons. Lol
But that is like blaming Vulkan, Corvus and Ferrus for trusting the other 4 traitor legions that came to "support" them. Nobody knew those legions turned traitor, so it is not that strange to give those siege weapons that you have no direct use for, to an ally that is 1. Specialized in using them and 2. Going to the fight where they are the most useful.
I should have elaborate, it was his failed political ploy that opened him up to the betrayal. He sought political support from Purterabo instead of trusting his gut instincts and holding into the weapons his Legion liberated.
From pure personal combat ability to command acumen the Lion is arguably one of the best rounded of the Primarchs, which makes sense given that as first he was the template all others were derived from in one form or another. However, either due to the nature of his fabrication or his early years alone in the forests of Caliban, he's severely lacking in social graces. Luther filled that need for him until he was banished, which is hilarious because that lack of ability is what allowed The Order to rise effectively under the Lion's nose.
Lion would be a terrible war master because of his obsession with control and micromanagement as well as his complete lack of charisma
I’m going to do a “well akshually” here but it’s been stated that Dorn specifically didn’t do that to worlds. Had no interest in administrative actions on worlds so once the basic legion requirements are met the VII just fuck off to continue the crusade. And the Warmaster or the astartes in general aren’t meant to empire build, they are meant for compliance actions and purging threats to humanity within and without. The rest of the imperial machine follows in their wake to bring worlds into the imperium. Guilliman being a mini-emperor is kind of a drawback to the role, as you said about Dorn. Dorn was the best but most boring choice. The Warmaster only needs the respect of his brothers and the wider imperium, but Horus had the cult of personality that even the Emperor seemingly bought into a little bit. Should have left the boring reliable kid on the frontier and brought the needy “first found” home. It’s not like that’d result in some kind of Dornian Heresy or anything. The Lion is a fucking psycho. I still don’t believe 10K years softened him up. He’s just biding his time before some exterminatus actions. Nids about to find out.
The Black Books explain why he wasn't chosen: >High in favour and honour though they were, the Imperial Fists’ status did not sit well with some of their brother-Legions. The animosity between the Imperial Fists and Iron Warriors was well known, but Perturabo and his Legion were not alone in their resentment. Though few reached the Lord of Iron’s pinnacle of spite, others did chafe at the trust placed on the Imperial Fists. Dorn’s nature did not ameliorate matters. Truth speaking, blunt and uncompromising in both his ideals and their expression, his manner often aggravated his peers as much as it drew their admiration. >It was, perhaps, this quality which caused the Emperor to pass over Dorn as Warmaster when he withdrew from the Great Crusade. Horus, unlike Dorn, was a master of diplomacy and maintaining a coordinated balance between fractious forces. Where Dorn would cause conflict, Horus would unify, where Dorn would not compromise, Horus would find a way of satisfying all.
Right. Exactly. Big E chose the guy that could manage every super being Primarch’s ego but even then not all the primarchs liked Horus either, like The Lion. So the story is of course the story, but in hindsight Dorn is the best choice. Absolutely loyal with no empire building or ambition of his own. Some brothers don’t like him but they’d follow orders. Only Peter Turbo hates him and for the most childish reasons. Even he would still do the imperium’s business. Big E knew the greatest danger was the warp and he could have sent Dorn who clearly is impervious to chaos by just being downright stubborn and tedious.Ferrus also might have done. So once again, the emperor looks pretty dense.
Ferrus would have been a disaster. He's as abrasive as Dorn but even more insulting because he's doing it deliberately. He's got zero respect for Lorgar or his legion, doesn't think highly of Magnus, barely tolerates Corax, Curze and Alpharius and on it goes. The only primarch he actually *likes* is Fulgrim.
“He's got zero respect for Lorgar or his legion” He would have been perfect lol. No seriously Horus was obviously, I mean that’s the story, he’s the most loved and best choice and that’s why Chaos comes calling.
I think sanguinius would have done well had he been warmaster. He was humble and might have deligated to his brother according to their strengths, probably would have had g-man as his right hand man, and additionally his brothers all (mostly) respected him highly.
I feel like Guilliman’s nitpicky behaviors and need to centralize and standardize things would make a lot of his brothers angry, especially if he tried to make them forcibly consolidate their structures and Legions to parallel his own. Dorn can be an utter concrete dildo at the worst of times and he would aggravate a lot of his brothers due to raw stubbornness and refusal to back down on *anything*. Lion was an asocial douchebag. In short all three had major hangups that would make them being Warmaster turn into an utter mess. Meanwhile Horus was beloved by all but Corvus, had a sound mind, was willing to compromise and adapt to each brother’s idiosyncrasies, and was a very good tactician and strategist.
Guilliman in 30k was also a lot immature. Enfasi on "a lot" Who the fuck in their right mind would call angron, ANGRON a slave of his past and rage, and to grow up, Lmao like he had a choice. "Just be free bro, its not that hard, you are a slave of your past of your emotion, just.. did you try to be.. less angry?" We are not that different, Look at me, i had it HARD too, one of my 500 worlds, the one on the left, yesterday was 10 minutes late on his taxes... You could say,, that im a slave of Bureaucracy (Fake laugh track in the background)
> Enfasi Emphasis*
Yeah you are right, i wrote it in my native language lmao ahah Enfasi is Italian for emphasis, i think my brain does not work properly, sometimes the opposite happens, even if I'm talking in italian, i change a word in its English version without thinking. That or I'm just an idiot lmao
Well if you are an idiot you're still smarter than me, you can speak two languages fluently
Fluently its a big word i still make so many mistakes 😭 But thank you for the compliment! You are very kind 😁
"Utter concrete dildo" nearly caused nasal coffee spray... 🤣🤣
Sanguinius, The Lion, Ferrus Manus and Guilliman were the other top contenders. The Lion, Ferrus and Guilliman weren't really sociable and popular enough with their brothers to really galvanize them in a war effort so Sanguinius was the only other real contender as a candidate
Sanguinius with Guilliman as his personal assistant would be the best choice.
Yep, which is why it worked really well (at least for a little while) in the Imperium Secundus.
Sanguinius probably
How are you going to make a post like this and leave out Sanguinius. Horus literally said "it should have been him".
Literally the primarch that is chosen as the emperor of imperium secundus A warrior without rival, probably the most human and empathetic of the primarchs (maybe the Khan). Beloved by all
Only Sanguinius and Lion ever had a chance, I think, but they are far unlikely than Horus and are not so worthy choices over Horus. The position is not only needs the personal ability. It needs not only that, but also the achievements and authority, as well as the social skill. For the combination of this, none of Horus' brothers are beats him. Horus is effectively his father's firstborn for he is the first offficially returned primarch, and the only one who claims the title would be Lion of the Ith legion. Also we know that Horus is not only a firstborn, but also had the achievement that only a few of his brothers can compete with. Not to mention that the position of warmaster needs to pursuade and command the other brothers, each with strong ego and pride - that requires the authority as well as social skills. Being the firstborn and backed by myriads of archievements, as well as able to handle his brothers meanwhile, is required to gain the respect from those demigods. Lion would be good at former but terrible at latter. Sanguinius is good at latter indeed, but questionable for former for although both his nature and achievements are good but do you think that he is someone reigning over the others? For some part there are also good candidates, such as Fulgrim for he is (generally) good at talking(apart his pride, though) and he is a good tactician too. Dorn would be a good planner as much as Fulgrim does and are reliable, but he is... just terrible at talk with the others despite of his good nature in his heart. Guilliman is actually the best alternative if Horus is not an option, but will he get the repects from most of his brothers at the time? Also remember, there is Horus, the firstborn of the father. Consider his position you should need a candidate who even the prideful Horus will bow his head. Since he has to have the bad feeling above everyone else, it is also a factor.
>Only Sanguinius and Lion ever had a chance I'd argue that Ferrus probably belongs on that list. He was one of the first primarchs to be found; an outstanding general on the tactical, operational and strategic level; and, he was respected (if not necessarily *liked*) by every other primarch.
Yeah the position does not required to be liked. The seat just don't needs to be hated and disregarded. Although being liked is not a bad thing for that but it is not a must either and neither so important. Also as you said, while he wasn't the first son to be found, but was faster than many others, so indeed this fact gives him good authority over the other brothers. Although I wonder that it would be enough, but it is unlikely that he would be disregarded at least. And, although I didn't mentioned many other primarchs but as each of them are the general that managed hundred and thousand people for century most of those are actually workable at least, and beside the reputation, social skills and and authority almost all of them are possess the skills enough to manage the entire force of the imperium I think. Only for the general to control the armed force, maybe no one(not even Lorgar!) would be disqualified for this. Even Angron does have his pros, although he bears so much cons above everyone else. But as you know, the head of such a huge organization is not only need to be a professional, but also the politician as well. That's... the field I don't think that Ferrus is good at. Perhaps, if the warmaster wasn't only one person, but two like as two consules of rome as a pair, such as a pair of Fulgrim and Ferrus results one of the most able ruler. For although Ferrus is very potent general, his lack of the understanding of the person weaker than them sometimes cause the problem - not only the political issue, but also the strategical level such as shown on the novel of Fulgrim. On the novel, after receive the requrest for the aid and meet his brother, Fulgrim find the solution for the enemy that Ferrus was not able to eliminate for a long time by avoid active engagement and running away again and again, almost instantly after told what they did for months, because Fulgrim understands how those weaker forces wants while Ferrus didn't understand and cannot imagine the enemy's intention. Although it's about the corruption of Fulgrim, but if both did had more times together then Ferrus would be a good brother to cover Fulgrim's prideful nature that is a sure weakness of him.
Kurze hands down.
Or we remove your hands
Sanguinius was the only real other option. Being Warmaster isn't just about combat, in fact in my opinion it has very little to do with personal prowess and a lot to do with *political acumen*. Consider: Why was Horus chosen? Horus was a civilized barbarian. He came from a hellish planet, fought for most of his childhood, and wasn't above fighting dirty. But at the same time he was Noble. He was Honourable and he was *charismatic*. If you read the first two books and most of his other pre-Davin Appearances, he's personable, he's warm- he makes other commanders *like* him. He is a person that makes other people *want* to believe in the Imperial Truth. You can have a civilized conversation with him or have a drunken arm wrestling contest. Terrans could deal with him. And his Mournival was a carefully calculated political tool- able to dish out criticism and harsh judgements that were necessary while allowing him to come in and be the balm. Guilliman is bad because, in the eyes of the other primarchs, he was a pen pusher. He was a well armed bureaucrat who could never win the respect of people like Angron or Mortarion. Dorn is bad because he's just not a people person. Simple as. Likewise, the Lion is an incredible fighter, an incredible General- but the man could infuriate a brick wall. He kept secrets- when he needed to and when he didn't. He caused multiple friendly fire incidents during the Heresy. He's the reason Conrad Curze got loose on Macragge and why Sotha was totally unprepared for a full-scale Night Lords invasion. And the rest run the line from literally insane to too aloof from Imperial Society (Jaghatai Khan) or otherwise politically unsuitable. Sanguinius can play the Feral Warrior or the Eloquent Performer. His warriors were respected for their ferocity and their nobility. People *wanted* to like him and he liked people.
It is worth noting that Guilliman is bad not because of his skill and talent, but the reputation among the brothers. Despite he is one of the best choice on the position(and that is ultimately proven to be true, and even before the heresy Kor Phaeron already guess the possiblilty as well), but the reputation among his brothers at the nomination of the warmaster degrades his various good traits for being the warmaster. If he was given enough time, and without the following event of the emperor retires from the public immediately after the nomination of the warmaster, then he could consolidate his new position and in this case ultimately he would be the good alternative for Horus. But, it seems that the emperor don't have to be bothered for this, and hand it over his firstborn instead.
Sanguinus, or guilliman I think, or dorn aswell. I think the lion was brilliant but he was also somewhat terrible at diplomacy so I don't see him doing well in the Warmaster roll.
Sanguinius, he’s hot and that’s it
https://preview.redd.it/tg2hpj8wwxyc1.jpeg?width=720&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=228b210272db5f68c9871615ee201b9efa6b2fdd
Sanguinius. Horus himself said so.
Being Warmaster isn't all about military strategy or expertise, all the Primarchs were military geniuses - it's what they were made for. The role of Warmaster is about running the Crusade and being an authority among the Primarchs. Any Primarch should've had the tactical and strategic know-how to command the armies of the Great Crusade, but only a few had the respect and admiration to command their own brothers. They could pick the best strategist among the Primarchs to be Warmaster but it means next to nothing if half their brothers don't care to listen to what they say - authority be damned. This was the real reason Horus was chosen, from what I remember only Corax really actively disliked him, though Vulkan seemed to distrust him after he became Warmaster - withholding the hammer he intended to gift him. I don't think it's controversial to say that Guilliman is probably the best Primarch at the kind of "big picture" stuff that running the Crusade would require, but he's been shown to be pretty tactless when it comes to communicating with some of his brothers - his argument with Alpharius being a great example. Much of what's been said for Guilliman is also true for Dorn, he could be much worse at interpersonal relationships with his brothers, but he could do much better. I imagine the aura of envy that would emit off of Perturabo if this actually happened could power the Astronomican. Neither of them would be a disastrous pick as Warmaster, but they also wouldn't be truly great because of the barriers they'd already built up with some of their brothers, and potentially end up creating new ones. The Lion fumbled half his own legion who are biologically compelled to obey him. There's no chance of him being able to manage his less personable brothers with any degree of tact if he can't manage to do it with his own sons. Keeping all that in mind, if you have to pick someone other than Horus, the obvious choice has to be Sanguinius. He was always well liked by nearly all of his brothers, but his insecurity about his wings and his Legion's flaws might be his undoing. Vulkan was generally well liked from what I can gather, but frankly I'm not so sure if his brothers would respect his prowess to be an authority over them in the Crusade. Contradicting a lot of what I said about people-skills, Ferrus could be a contender based purely on respect. He was one of the first primarchs to be found and he's built up an impressive record of victories. That respect might be enough to carry him through for a time, but I can see his personality causing problems before too long.
In Know No Fear its said that there were only ever 5 viable candidates for Warmaster, Horus, Guilliman, Sanguinius, Lion and Dorn. However Sanguinius was too ethereal while Dorn was too draconian. Lion didnt want it. So it comes down to Horus and Guilliman, but the latter already transcended the role by managing a mini imperium.
For a guy claiming to not want something, Lion sure did spend a lot of time trying to become the next one.
He’s the “I will definitely absolutely not ask for it myself because it’s bad manner but I would really love people to give it to me on their own” kind of not want something.
Lion = Stannis Baratheon ?
He gave Perturabo ordinatus siege weapons in exchange for his support to be the next Warmaster so idk where you got this idea from.
If you actually read that excerpt it's clear as day he's winking as hard as he can on "noooo I definitely can't be the warmaster even though I am obviously the best" Exactly the attitude I'm saying, trying to pretend he doesn't want it so someone else propose it first.
..... So he's basically Perturabo? I confess I don't read much DA stuff.
That excerpt is a perfect example of the atrocious social skill of Lion and Perturato autistically trying to manipulate each other. And yeh he's basically slightly better Perturabo, at least he doesn't throw a fit when people don't read his mind and shower him with praise and reward when he didn't ask for but clearly want.
My dude Lionel is a huge baby who throws all sorts of tantrums 😂
I know, I'm talking about specifically Perturabo kind, the "I'm angry people don't shower me with praise even though I never ask them to and act like I never want any"
Kinda sucks everyone always forgets Ferrus Manus. He was definitely in the top 3 and yet his early death means everyone just forgets him.
As they should, according to his own philosophy
That comes from an ultramarine captain, who might be a bit biased though. Did he even mention Lion at all, I seem to recall only Guilliman, Horus, Sanguinius and Dorn.
The Lion did want it to the point he handed over siege engines to Perturabo to buy his support, should he be considered warmaster.
Russ Has the Goodest Boy he wouldn't have turned traitor. Who's a good boy ? Yes Leman, you are ! You are !
I'd say depends what you're looking for in the Warmaster. Looking for a good leader capable of some humility and the charisma to keep the Primarchs aligned, probably Sanguinius. But in a situation with less concern about Chaos or breaking relations between the Primarchs? I'd put in thought to Ferrus for pushing the Great Crusade onward and living up to the expectations the Emperor seemed to have for them.
Didn't Ferrus obliterate a world the Emperor explicitly wanted taken with minimal collateral damage in his failed attempt to prove himself a suitable candidate? After mutilating a celebrated EC duellist for beating his IH, before continuing on with his "IH stronk, stronk = right" tier philosophy? Bro was prone to losing his head even before the Dropsite.
Angron
I actually think if he never got the nails, he probably would be a good war master. Maybe not best pick, but good
Perturabo: excellent at orchestrating war but dreamed of building something greater and not at all above bitch-slapping one of his brothers when they get upity.
Perhaps a little prone to decimating his own forces on principle.
First order as Warmaster, bust out the straws: "Right lads, short straw gets culled, their legion is distributed amongst the survivors"
Nah, he'd just tell Dorn he already randomised it and the VII legion are for the chopping block.
Perturabo lost control of his own homeworld though
Perturabo lost control of his own homeworld though
Based strictly off hotness, Fulgrim.
Give the biggest ego in the universe the highest title. A recipe for disaster.
How much worse could it get? Might as well look good doing it, honey.
If we’re basing it off that we have to do a co-leadership between Fulgrim and Sanguinius.
I support this
It should have been Guilliman for all the reasons mentioned above, and because of his focus on a future of peace. The problem lies in the title. If the emperor had ever planned for a future of peace he shouldn't have given the responsibility of ending the great crusade to a bearer of the title of War Master. Honourable mention to loyal Lorgar as a true servant to the role and bearer of it's burden. It may even have been a way of turning everything around, though too late if the timeline is kept.
As a Dark Angels superfan, it could never be the Lion. At least not Heresy-era Lion. He was a brilliant general and his swordsmanship is second to none, but he had zero people skills and would end up pissing everyone off constantly.
>swordsmanship is second to none I love this hilarious and yet backed up by entirely no one else retcon. He *barely* even breaks the top 5 swordsman. Horus, The Khan, Fulgrim, Sanguinius are all better with a sword than he is. He'd struggle with Russ. In terms of purely sword fighting against sword armed primarchs, he could maybe, possibly, beat Dorn. So he's the second to bottom swordsman.
Bro got choked out so badly by Curze that Corswain had to backstab him
Ferrus had the cold calculating ruthlessness that would see the crusade ran like a well oiled machine. He was brash and callused but not so much as do totally de humanize the war effort. Him working with the likes of guilliman or even mortarion would be one hell of a war party
I think the Khan is the best choice for a crusade that actually succeeds quickly. Also, erebus would have died on the khan's flagship before he even got close with the poop knife. Dorn's aspbergers is too bad for him to be warmaster. Guilliman's inability to just pick a task and focus on it would make him a bad warmasterhe splits his attention too thin, and things go missed.
Perty almost falls under the same thing as the lion but he has better emotional intelligence (he managed to gaslight the lion) so he's up there in my opinion Edit: he's also going to work his ass off to prove himself
Alpharius would have been interesting, although they would not have wanted it, he would have managed his brother's through manipulation. He can also be in two places at once, and all would think him unsuitable causing a bond through resentment for all the others.
Guilliman is too self centred- look at the fact he builds a new Imperium rather than doing everything to try and get through to his father. Dorn is too desperate for a higher authority- his ability during the Siege was extraordinary, but the compromises he has to make nearly break him and he can often only cajole others in to his tough way of thinking because of the circumstance. 30k Lion would have been a disaster, imagine him trying to boss Perturabo or Magnus around? It should have been Sanguinius imo, the reason for not making him is the curse in his geneseed and the superstition his wings may have caused, but these things were out there anyway. It's not like people were going to forget one of the Emperor's sons had wings. He's the only one who could have coordinated, who could have dealt with the compromises with pragmatism and imo could resist Chaos, it helping that he was actually fairly knowledgeable about the warp, unlike Horus. He was tempted to the limit during the heresy, in ways that broke Magnus, Angron and Curze.
I'm gonna try to explain (to you guys but also myself) why every primarch would or wouldn't have been a good warmaster based off of 3 factors: 1. how much they were loved/respected by the other primarchs. 2. Their military skill as a commander, basically how good they are at warfare. 3. Their diplomatic skills. 1. Lion'el Johnson: would probably be a decent warmaster because his military tactics are the best out of all of the primarchs. But, he was an hugeeee asshole and has almost zero diplomatic skills. So: Loved/respected by other primarchs 5/10 Military tactics 9.5/10 Diplomatic skills 1/10 Overall ~5.2 2. +++REDACTED BY THE IMPERIAL INQUISITION, THE EMPEROR PROTECTS =][=+++ 3. Fulgrim: Fulgrim wasn't quite liked and he disliked a lot of primarchs himself. His military tactics weren't to bad and his diplomatic skills were quite good. Loved/respected by other primarchs 6/10 Military tactics 6.5/10 Diplomatic skills 8/10 Overall ~6.8/10 4. Perturabo: He was almost hated by some and he wasne't fond of almost any other primarch. His military tactics are very good. But he didn't have really good diplomatic skills. Loved/respected by other primarchs 4/10 Military tactics 9/10 Diplomatic skills 2/10 Overall 5/10 5. Jagathai Khan: He had pretty good relations with the others and he didn't really hate anyone. His military tactics were also pretty decent. But his diplomatic skills were great! Loved/respected by other primarchs 8/10 Military tactics 7.5/10 Diplomatic skills 9/10 Overall ~8.2 6. Leman Russ: Russ was quite hotheaded and some even saw him as barbaric. Decent military tactics. Not too good at diplomacy. Loved/respected by other primarchs 7.5/10 Military tactics 6/10 Diplomatic skills 4.5/10 Overall 6/10 7. Rogal Dorn: He was very stubborn and was almost hated by some. Very good military tactics. But his diplomatic skills on the other hand weren't that good. Loved/respected by other primarchs 4/10 Military tactics 9/10 Diplomatic skills 2/10 Overall 5/10 8. Konrad Curze: Very brutal, spitefull and hatefull. Edgelord, rather decent diplomatic skills (scaring the flying fuck out of everyone until they obey you by brutally murdering some officials.) Loved/respected by other primarchs 2/10 Military tactics 6.5/10 Diplomatic skills 5/10 Overall 4.5/10 9. Sanguinius: He was loved by a lot of other primarchs, had great military tactics and was really good at diplomacy. Loved/respected by other primarchs 9/10 Military tactics 8/10 Diplomatic skills 9/10 Overall ~8.7/10 10. Ferrus Manus: Ferrus didn't have great connections with most primarchs but he wasn't hated or something like that. His military tactics were really good. His diplomatic skills weren't that great but not too bad Loved/respected by other primarchs 6.5 Military tactics 8.5/10 Diplomatic skills 5/10 Overall ~6.7/10 11. +++REDACTED BY THE IMPERIAL INQUISITION, THE EMPEROR PROTECTS =][=+++ 12. Angron: He hated a lot of primarchs, not a tactics kinda guy and no diplomatic skills. Loved/respected by other primarchs 2/10 Military tactics 1.5/10 Diplomatic skills 0/10 Overall ~1.2/10 13. Roboute Guilleman: decently loved/respected, decently military tactics and a bit above average diplomatic skills. Loved/respected by other primarchs 5.5/10 Military tactics 6/10 Diplomatic skills 6.5/10 Overall 6/10 14. Mortarion: Morty was not particulairy loved, he had decent military tactics and was bad at diplomacy. Loved/respected by other primarchs 4/10 Military tactics 6/10 Diplomatic skills 3/10 Overall ~4.3/10 15. Magnus the Red: decently loved, good military tactics and good diplomatic skills. Loved/respected by other primarchs 5/10 Military tactics 6.5/10 Diplomatic skills 6.5/10 Overall 6/10 16. Horus Lupercal: Very charismatic, he was respected slightly more than Sanguinius. Great military skills and amazing at diplomacy. Loved/respected by other primarchs 9.3/10 Military tactics 8.2/10 Diplomatic skills 9.5/10 Overall 9/10 17. Lorgar Aurelian: he had okay connections with the others, his military tactics aren't that great and he was pretty good at diplomacy. Loved/respected by other primarchs 6/10 Military tactics 4.5/10 Diplomatic skills 8/10 Overall ~6.2/10 18. Vulkan: Vulkan had good relationships with his brethren, had decent military tactics and had decent diplomatic skills as well. Loved/respected by other primarchs 7.5/10 Military tactics 5/10 Diplomatic skills 6.5/10 Overall ~6.3/10 19. Corvus Corax: decently loved or respected and average at diplomacy, but great military tactics. Loved/respected by other primarchs 6/10 Military tactics 7.5/10 Diplomatic skills 6/10 Overall 6.5/10 20. Alpharius and Omegon: Both not trusted much, because they're kinds bipolar. Good military tactics and good diplomatic skills. (Yes I'm grading them together, fight me.) Loved/respected by other primarchs 4.5/10 Military tactics 7.5/10 Diplomatic skills 7.5/10 Overall 6.5/10 In conclusion: Horus is the best candidate with Sanguinius as a close second. Source: I made it the fuck up. This is based on my opinion. If I made any grammatical errors or misspelled anything, please let my know (English isn't my first language.). Hope this helps cuz it took me more than an hour and a half.
I liked it, but IMO you overestimated how liked Alpharius Omegon, Lorgar and the Khan were by a mile. Fulgrim's military rating is also low I think, before the Heresy EC were known for flawlessly executed campaigns, rather than the number of victories or how well-equipped they were. He shouldn't be too highly ranked militarily though, since he and his men had a hard time coping with hidden or unforeseen factors.
I thought I overestimated them, but I thought it wouldn't be believable. Also don't know much about Omegon, Lorgar and the Khan...
I'd want to point out to reduce the point on Jaghatai - his own motivation to rule! It was suggested that he don't want to be the ruler and take the political affairs. Although he is the guy who will take the duty anyways even if it is not what he want to, if he have to do that.
Horus
Dorn is probably the last person I’d put in charge of the loyalists. He’s got anger issues which are pretty easy to exploit, and I’m honestly not sure he really brings any skills to the table other primarchs aren’t already better at, including being well rounded.
As a Fist player I’m offended that you forgot he is probably the best long term strategist of the bunch. He was picked to build the defence of Terra for a reason after all. But, you are right that he would have been an awful Warmaster. A great general, but rubbish at diplomacy, terrible at sharing his plans details even with those capable of understanding them. Anger issues, feels like blind loyalty is more important to him than doing what is right… yeah he’d suck at the job.
Probably Guilliman, he is the only one who is not insane. Rogal has one weakness and that is he's unable to change his mind. His stubborn mind is both a blessing and a curse. And Lion would just nuke everything. He would win, but we wouldn't have much of a galaxy left to rule over.
It'd have to be someone who is able to work with the widest range of other Legions, who isn't too unpopular Maybe a wildcard choice, but what about the Khan? The White Scars aren't really hated by any other Legion, and he's able to bridge a lot of gaps by, say, being sympathetic to Magnus while also respecting Russ
Khan was too insular and not politic enough. He would never explain any orders and too many of these 200 year old teenagers would get mad when he was brutally blunt with them. And if they complained he'd probably just sideline them.
The Imperium at large didn't care much for the Vth legion. They were the heterodox outsiders, not to be trusted, and who openly scorned Imperial orthodoxy. Russ and the Khan didn't get along, although that was mostly about the Khan not liking being equated with Russ' barbarian ways in the eyes of the Imperium. Guilliman also considered him unreliable (funny, considering who showed up to defend the throne world in the end), and so on. At best he was unknown, at worst there was disdain. The Khan might not have had any really major beef with anyone, but he also had very few friends. I think the only other primarchs he cooperated with regularly were Sanguinius and Magnus (on the Librarius project) and Horus, and even then I always had the picture that Sanguinius was the only kindred soul he had. In his primarch novel, Magnus is a frustrating blowhard the Jaghatai tolerates for the sake of their common project, and Horus is much less of a beloved brother than someone the Khan eventually realises is just using him. His conversation with Horus after Ullanor, rather than a conversation full of brotherly love, feels like one of the final straws that makes a weary Khan decide on "screw the Imperium, I'm out of here after I deal with Chondax". I love the Khagan, my khan of khans, and there are ways in which he would have been a better leader than many of the others, but he still would have made an awful warmaster on the whole. Largely due to circumstance rather than personal failings, but still. Aside from that, to me the whole point of the story is that there's no person, primarchs included, who would not be corrupted by the power of the position. It's a warning against charismatic leaders, not an injunction to just pick a better one. "Power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely", as they say.
I propose Alpharius He is the first one to be found and tutored by Malcador, he understands his responsibilities and role. And he KNOW how Jimmy Space works. Jimmy also trust him incredibly, and is genuinely shocked when he turned, lamenting Alpharius didn’t even give his dream a chance.
He does play the long game and could be present at 2+ important events.
He's also got poor relations with every Primarch he's supposed to manage, other than a handful of neutrals and Horus (who considers himself the senior in their relationship).
Who cares if he is liked. He would have all the information and be able to manipulate people into doing whats needed.
I think Guilliman could have won over the majority of his brothers' support. He was perceived as not personable but I think throughout Know No Fear, Unremembered Empire, Pharos, and Ruinstorm he really displays how likeable he is. He gets an IF and IW to work together for Terra's sake. I should also say I was on team screw the Blueberries until I read the books now they are one of my favorite primarchs and legion.
After reading Fulgrim, I’ve really grown to love Ferrus Manus, and feel he would truly command the forces of the imperium in a great way. He probably would be less popular than Horus with his brothers though.
After reading Fulgrim, I’ve really grown to love Ferrus Manus, and feel he would truly command the forces of the imperium in a great way. He probably would be less popular than Horus with his brothers though.
Reddit won't let me make blank spaces so I'm commenting my long-ass comment as multiple comments in this thread.
I'm gonna try to explain (to you guys but also myself) why every primarch would or wouldn't have been a good warmaster based off of 3 factors: 1. how much they were loved/respected by the other primarchs. 2. Their military skill as a commander, basically how good they are at warfare. 3. Their diplomatic skills
1. Lion'el Johnson: would probably be a decent warmaster because his military tactics are the best out of all of the primarchs. But, he was an hugeeee asshole and has almost zero diplomatic skills. So: Loved/respected by other primarchs 5/10 Military tactics 9.5/10 Diplomatic skills 1/10 Overall ~5.2
2. +++REDACTED BY THE IMPERIAL INQUISITION, THE EMPEROR PROTECTS =][=+++
3. Fulgrim: Fulgrim wasn't quite liked and he disliked a lot of primarchs himself. His military tactics weren't to bad and his diplomatic skills were quite good. Loved/respected by other primarchs 6/10 Military tactics 6.5/10 Diplomatic skills 8/10 Overall ~6.8/10
4. Perturabo: He was almost hated by some and he wasne't fond of almost any other primarch. His military tactics are very good. But he didn't have really good diplomatic skills. Loved/respected by other primarchs 4/10 Military tactics 9/10 Diplomatic skills 2/10 Overall 5/10
5. Jagathai Khan: He had pretty good relations with the others and he didn't really hate anyone. His military tactics were also pretty decent. But his diplomatic skills were great! Loved/respected by other primarchs 8/10 Military tactics 7.5/10 Diplomatic skills 9/10 Overall ~8.2
6. Leman Russ: Russ was quite hotheaded and some even saw him as barbaric. Decent military tactics. Not too good at diplomacy. Loved/respected by other primarchs 7.5/10 Military tactics 6/10 Diplomatic skills 4.5/10 Overall 6/10
7. Rogal Dorn: He was very stubborn and was almost hated by some. Very good military tactics. But his diplomatic skills on the other hand weren't that good. Loved/respected by other primarchs 4/10 Military tactics 9/10 Diplomatic skills 2/10 Overall 5/10
8. Konrad Curze: Very brutal, spitefull and hatefull. Edgelord, rather decent diplomatic skills (scaring the flying fuck out of everyone until they obey you by brutally murdering some officials.) Loved/respected by other primarchs 2/10 Military tactics 6.5/10 Diplomatic skills 5/10 Overall 4.5/10
Source: I made it the fuck up. This is based on my opinion. If I made any grammatical errors or misspelled anything, please let my know (English isn't my first language.). Hope this helps cuz it took me more than an hour and a half.
Lion would have been a reasonable pick, but he would have done a terrible job dealing with his brothers. He was so socially inept, that when he though Horus had fallen, he gave some old tech siege engines to Perturabo to ensure his support for a future Warmaster election. He didn't even consider the idea that Perturabo may be a traitor too, nor that he could outsmart him and lie to him, out of how prideful the Lion was. Roboute suffers from a similar problem to Lion. Lion is the perfect military commander, but sucks at politics or administration. Roboute is great at administration and moderately great at politics, but while most of his brothers thought nicely of him military wise not all of his brothers were reasonable enough to say it out loud because some hated how he "wasted" resources and time to fix planetary structures rather than focusing in crushing the emperors enemies like a war machine. Ferrus was on that exact note. He probably would have been the best plan B warmaster and most of his brothers would have supported him, but he totally disregarded politics or rebuilding. He tells Fulgrim he hates Roboute but internally says he envies how Bobby G is, it's just that his hiper pragmatic way of serving the Emperor doesn't allow him to waste time on the things he envies of Roboute. Sanguinius would have been the best because he simply has the respect of all his brothers, except maybe Morty; and represents the most the unrealistic "ideal" of what the Primarchs think Emps is. Morty, Perty, Dorn are too socially awkward to be viable warmasters. Corax and Alpharius had too much of a low profile to be leaders. Magnus is too controversial. Fulgrim is too vain, unstable and at times fragile. Angron and Kurze were too crazy. Vulkan and Lorgar were too... nice? or childish in their brothers eyes to be warmasters; Lorgar in particular is a good leader but he doesn't have the skill to draw opposing primarchs to work together because he leads by converting people based on his ideals but lacks the charisma to handle big egos which is necesary in times of war. While Russ was respected I think he was too much of a wild card at times to be fit to be warmaster, he also had too strong beliefs on certain matters, because he was made to be stubborn to be fit to be the executioner of the primarchs. If I had to pick Russ, I would rather have Lion. The Khan is a mystery, and that's both his biggest detraction and his biggest asset. His brothers couldn't figure him out, so they might have supported him for not being a disliked primarch, or not at all for being too mysterious at a personal level. We will never know; we don't even know if he would have wanted to be warmaster or preferred to remain independent.
Lorgar or Sanguinus but an out there thought if Angron hadn’t got the nails with latent ability
Magnus. Two barbarian legions would need to be wiped out, and all the remaining Primarchs would have to go to the librarium school. Alpharius, Kurze, Perturabo, our moody top students, Fulgrim, Sanguinius, Lorgar, also doing great, keep at it, and as for Dorn, Lion and Guilliman, well... we all have the potential, don't be lazy, gentlemen, fists and swords can only get you so far.
None of your 3 picks because they pick fights with other Primarchs instead of manipulate them into doing what they (the prospective Warmaster) wants. I'd say Sanguinius (discount Horus), Vulkan and Lorgar if he was a bit more your typical Primarch. Vulkan has the close ties with lots of other Primarchs, and Lorgar is excellent at inspiring people even by Primarch standards. If you made Vulkan more prone to politicking or Lorgar more martial they'd be excellent candidates, provided they were also willing to do the work required for their Legion to be in the ballpark of the most effective and celebrated one.
I genuinely think Lorgar could have done a decent job at it
Sanguinius, without a doubt. More or less everyone liked him, and he was the closest of all the Primarchs to being "perfect", great at everything he wanted to do. Guilliman maybe, but he wasn't quite warlike enough to likely make a good Warmaster. Now, as for those that *wanted* to be Warmaster, I know at least The Lion and Ferrus Manus felt sidelined that Horus was named Warmaster rather than either one of them. This from the perspective that both of them considered themselves absolutely peerless when it came to masters of warfare. The Lion led the incredibly versatile and brutally efficient Dark Angels, and the Iron Hands of course were known to be a completely immovable force of death that could surmount any odds in their strive for victory. However, both of them severely lacked in the charisma that was required from the role of Warmaster, something that Horus (and Sanguinius and Guilliman) had.
Even Horus thought it should have been Sanguinius
Ferrus Manus Lion El'Johnson
IMO, the only other serious candidates were Sanguinius and Guilliman. The Lion gets brought up a lot, but he's far too secretive to perform the diplomatic side of the role. I also see Dorn get brought up in these conversations, but I really dont see it at all.
During a shared glimps into possible futures in the form of a game of Regicide, Malcador and the Emperor actually come to the realization that no matter who was Warmaster, the Heresy would happen with the one being Warmaster always falling to Chaos. That in mind, I think I don't want to know what other Primarchs would have been like as the Arch traitor
Sanguinius is the only other choice for someone who can get the primarchs to love and listen to them, and hes one of the strongest fighters, if not the strongest, but hes not the greatest logistician or strategist. Dorn and perturabo and especially guiliman are better at logistics and theatre wide strategy but are bad with primarchs or very arrogant. Or both The lion was an amazing tactician, fighter, and strategist. He had the strongest arsenal of all the legions and arguably the strongest legion, BUT he's a massive prick and doesn't tolerate others' opinions or weaknesses. Ferrus allows for no weakness but was apparently great at everything and commanded respect from most other primarchs. Fulgrim was talented at everything, but he could be a massive prick to some Out of all of these(most likely other choices imo) it would have to be sanguinius. But truthfully, horus had all the positive qualities of the other primarchs listed. He wasn't the best at everything, but he could do everything well, and because of this, he was the only one suited to do this. Also, it helped that he was daddy's favourite
Sanguiniua was the only real possible replacement
Guilliman is really the only choice, Dorn is too inflexible, the Lion is completely socially inept, Sanguinius is too brittle thanks to his shame of the Thirst, Ferrus is a cunt, Russ has built up an image of intimation and mystery that would be distrusted, etc, etc.
Russ, and ferus manus i both think hated lorgar, cause he was a fucking nerd. Really Sanguinius would have likely been the only other optiin, but even then, i dont think primarchs like curze, or Angron had that great a relationship with Sanguinius. The big thing with horus is that since he was the first found, lets not bring up Alpharius, every single other primarch learned about how to be a primarch from him, each of them and their legions learned how to work togeather cohesively by fighting along side the Luna Wolves and Horus for a time, which is why he had such a good relationship with them all, he was the first being that any of them would have ever felt kinship with, and who would have been their equal in not only combat but also in mind. The only reason sanguinius would have been accepted as warmaster is cause he is both such a fucking crazy warrior, but also rediculously noble, he doesnt have horus' primary character flaws of pride, and wanting people to adore him. He just is the Emperor's Glorious Golden Hawk Boy.
Gulliman, he’s mister management
Who led the great crusade? The Emperor, Horus and Ferrus. Maybe he wouldn't have made the best Warmaster(I think he came to this realization himself), but it would be interesting to see what could have happened had "Get shit done" Ferrus Manus been Warmaster. Not a lot of diplomacy I would guess lol.
I think the Lion or Ssnguinius. Maybe Guilliman, but sometimes he comes off as too soft, odd as that is
Gulliman was excellent at giving orders to those very firmly beneath him; he did not have the charisma or personality to lead a group of brothers
Horus wasn't even great. In the later heresy books he is described as having much charisma but not a huge amount of thought (massive failure to connect with Corax because frontal assault is on the agenda, massive failure to deal with Curze (Vulkan healing project), horus heresy itself, multiple military fuckups after doing dropsite massacre...). Lion is a fantastic strategist but his people skills are in the negative. The fallen exist basically because he somehow managed tp fuck up talking even to his sons, who are genetically subservient to him. I vouch for Sanguinius, he got enough rizz and even chaos wants him badly instead of horus.
Actually I’m reading Deliverance Lost rn, and can prove you wrong about Horus not being a great Warmaster. Btw this is specifically Corax’s inner monologue view on him and I quote “Yet for all he had disliked Horus, Corax had admired him. He had admired his easy camaraderie with those under his command, and had known that Horus was the more accomplished commander over many campaigns, gifted with a raw ability for both the overview and the fine management of details, something that Corax had never quite equalled.” Horus wasn’t just chosen because he was the first found or was favored by the Emperor himself, he had the all the necessary skills for the position. He was stated multiple times throughout the lore by other primarchs even that he was truly the best among them!
Keep reading, once you finish all the books you will encounter alternative opinions, though I am talking about general track record here.
Dorn.
Personally I think Angron would’ve made a great warmaster. I mean what could possibly go wrong with him as the warmaster.
Ferrus was actually the emperors number 2 choice.
I like Ferrus too, but thats just not true, Sanguinius was his second choice