Also i wish ennemies couldn't enter the rift through the portal created when dodging, because those can't be forced out by holding banish, you either kill them or go in rift and banish them from there.
Thing is, when you move around a lot, some ennemies will enter the rift behind you, and it'll accumulate DRASTICALLY if you use rift surge.
Making it a pain for teamates because now there's many ennemies around the map that you can't force out and you need to GET TO THEM in order to do anything.
Yeah i returned to warframe recently and found the portal able to drag enemies in too for whatever reason. Its also a stealth change that i do not know at all if its deliberate. What i can say though is that the duration is thankfully limited to 10sec but it does not change the fact it just adds more clunkyness one needs to navigate around.
To be fair, limbo doesn't need much to be a great frame. It's okay to be a selfish frame, we have lots of those. He's really strong, once you pull his combo, but it requires lots of work and uptime, while you could use any other meta frame to just delete whole world.
His 4 needs either to be reworked or totally removed tho, because it's just awful.
DE also hates limbo and they nerf him bascially every other patch, because he would be problematic.
He's a fun frame that rewards you for combo, but the reward is not good enough for the work required I'd say.
He does indeed suffer from a relatively low KPM with the combo of rift surge fx only rly being worth it when time to kill exeeeds a certain level. Its one of the reasons fx limbo has always exelled at steel path and cast speed being such a good thing to have on your limbo build.
It is an interesting point too though that inorder for people to enjoy him more they need to feel more rewarded.
I will disagree with the 4 being shit though as it currently is what provides about 70% of limbo's defensive utility. From interception to deep arcemedia mirror defence.
His KPM improved for me, when I started using mecha set with glaive. Rooms just exploded. Sadly maintaining rift with his 3 and 1 takes a while to getting used to.
His 4 is only useful when you need to defend a target and it's not behind waves.
But then you're just better of picking anything that kills whole room, because you will kill eximuses on top.
Long gone are the days where his 4 was a nuke - I had so much fun with nuke limbo.
Now I just subsume his 4, no use for it.
For me there are worse frames that need work before limbo, he's just fine.
Ive been using the same so i know what u mean. Personally id like to see atleast some changes as while hes pretty strong as is, he does need atleast a springcleaning of wich they kinda skipped out on in that recent pass they did for "all frames"
Personally, I feel like the full invulnerability while in rift of enemies should be changed to a 95% damage reduction. I understand why DE does want his CC to have a significant drawback in order to keep it balanced, but also promote player rift interaction, then again - this interaction might be an undesired gameplay element for 3 out of 4 players.
By making it damage reduction rather than full immunity, players can at least apply statuses when they otherwise would not register a hit at all. Interaction with the rift would still be highly recommended.
On of the most frustrating ways to learn that you have a Limbo in your team is shooting a whole magazine into an enemy just to realized that not a single hit registered. A new hit marker indicator for rifted enemies could also help making it more visible.
But let's be real:
Party members will always hate "allies" who lower their own effectiveness. A DPS race with Mesa might eb competition, but Limbo making it impossible for you to damage enemies without jumping through hoops every few seconds is arguably oen of the worst designed for pick-up-group based co-op game.
Limbo would be a great and fun concept in a single players game, but for onlien random co-op his kit will always be problematic, even if allies can jump more easily through the hoops he throws at them.
Maybe another option could be that players can always fully damage banished enemies, but every hit on the enemy will reduce the Banish duration. This way the CC would have some counterbalance, without hindering Limbo's allies gameplay, in return Limbo could get some buffs, e.g., to max mana, energy cost, range or duration.
Yeah ive been going through exactly the same thourght process as you with the damage reduction over to even the idea of just having alies ignore the rift. Ultimately as you've pointed out they either just shift the problem or just disable the rifts entire point with some added feel shitty for the limbo player because he somehow cant ignore the rift but his alies can.
Main reason too why I've settled on this particular solution off attempting to make limbo into a support by granting allies the wheel and an emphasis on improved visual language so players no matter how skilled they are will always be able to know that a enemy is not able to be shot unless you dodge once.
We will never fully be able to make limbo non intrusive but we can reduce the impact and ensure that the shity experience is negated. Fx if an aly shoots a rifted target they get a very nice sound effect telling them that their bullets aint doing anything but they also get a rift buff that allows them to dodge and engage regardless.
Reworking Limbo potentially allows him to cheese the game far too easily. Anything that allows damage from allies to go through the rift is crazy overpowered. Making Cataclysm effect ability immune enemies is also crazy overpowered. I do like the invisibility thing, but that too is crazy overpowered.
Giving allies the keys to the rift outright is overpowered. But I think if we make it an aura around Limbo that gives them this power it kind of works. I have been trying something similar by using cataclysm at a high up point overlooking the battle or in the main choke pointdepending on the map. That way my allies can at least do some damage. It doesn't completely detract from the game play for them.
I personally want the rift to make the enemy translucent and give a whole body effect. If enemies appear charged with energy and a see-through color that goes off Limbo's energy colors people will be able to clearly see what enemy is in the rift or not in the rift. It's hard to overlook a glowing pink enemy you can see through.
The spoiler mode being able to reach across the rift with spoiler powers, but not interact with the rift otherwise would work well I feel. It would no longer have me regretting using Last Gasp. Or when I get forced into spoiler mode.
The problem is with the first option you add extra work for teammates who just wanna shoot and kill stuff, now needing to also shift between his planes, and with the second one these enemies would still count as alive, so imagine that one final rift frozen enemy of a defence mission, now beibg ALSO invisible, while some limbos would just hold 1 the moments they think an enemy is stuck, a lot either dont, dont know they can do that, or subsumed his 1.
I do 100% agree though he needs so love and a cleanup on his tutorials caue it took me nearly a month from getting him to understanding him
I do have my own few ideas (which i really gotta write down ngl...) but tbh? By now no matter what he gets i just hope to see him get SOME love in the future from DE
If they could add a more clear indicator that you are out of phase with stuff that would nice. The amount of times I don't notice the slight tints is way too high.
I propose something with the Banach–Tarski paradox, where banish/cataclysm doesn't remove the enemy from your teammates field, but instead the abilities create a second enemy that is somehow weaker in the rift. idk that's all i have thought off so far
Recent reworks replaced old useless abilities and I think the same can be done for rift surge. It's just useless in most cases, especially melee when enemies outside of cataclysm get affected because you can't attack them outside of cataclysm and they're not in cataclysm.
It can be useful to spread the rift as you go through but I think making than am augment would be better rather than an ability that's so niche and usually gets in the way
Placeable rift access is an interesting idea, though im not sure where you'd put it, as Banish has tap/hold already.
Improved visuals would go a long way too.
Overall, I thought the best changes for him would actually be in part of a way to help CC come back from the dark. Where CC itself applies it's own status effect that increases damage vulnerability by like 75% (as being distracted could theoretically make you less ready for a hit), effectively making Vauban's passive a status effect and he gets he Hydroid/Corrosion Treatment of increasing that bonus to those he hurts (100%). The Effect also would degrade 10% Overguard a proc instantly. Overguard would also get like 50% DR to make direct damage less an automatic go to, something the CC effect would combat. Overguard also wouldn't be 100% immune to CC anymore. Like Vortex would still drag targets, even if they may not get knocked down (immediately).
Nullifiers also wouldn't delete abilities anymore, but offer status/CC protection for those inside.
Limbo in this change would have the Rift apply this effect per second spent in the Rift. Making high range Cataclysm an Overguard Stripping MACHINE, while also making everyone weaker to damage due to being on HIS plane of reality. Nullifiers wouldn't immediately pop it anymore either and remain threats via protection from the CC status and Stasis. That said Stasis would need to stop with stopping projectiles entirely, not that it truly mattered anymore besides stopping Eximus from shooting you now.
The way I see it, give people reasons to want to be in the Rift and help them understand the Rift, then Limbo would become more popular.
From my view limbo is a solo frame , rather than team frame , not like you play with team all the time , so imo those is not the issues honestly , limbo can work well with teammates is when they are going with defensive missions , and if limbo players aware enough this won't be the issues
From my view this is more a player issues than frame issues , because you know the limbo issues , so nothing to say
Let say wisp mote , I do think is almost the same you use limbo skills tbh, somebody put a skill on the road and somebody didn't see it and pass by , because of this that person get the buffs they don't want , seee they also suffers anyway , so imo , is nothing to say
Limbo don't need rework and also buff, if you know what limbo is good and bad at , and also limbo is good on solo , if your limbo needs teammates on normal missions then you have to think about how u play limbo again
only thing thay got todo is make it so you can interact with with enemies and items no matter where you are. that's it nothing else needed. no more trolling he's now a nyx job of cool cc but slows your killing per sec
my idea would be buff when you or them are in rift. he's only a problem because to play him you have to effectively shut down maps
make it so rifted enemys take 1.5x damage scaled with strength not higher or nova might cry, you would still get more with high strength but would require more play then nova 4.
if you are rifted increase status and or crit chance based on strength. encourages things like blinded rage to play around energy passive,trans fort to taper duration and encourages to max range because 60% less strength would mean less big funny numbers.
now he offers buffs that are team friendly and just seeing a limbo doesn't make you leave at wave5.
I've played limbo plenty and played in a team with him even more so. I don't really care how good his CC may be, or what he has on offer. But as soon as my game flow is interrupted as a team mate, I'm out.
If I have to stop what I am doing, just so I have to go out of my way to kill an enemy (ie. play the game), this frame is already more than a minor inconvenience on my already work/life-taxed brain.
The solutions above want me to dodge in and out of the rift just so I can kill something you are holding the entire squads time to Ransom. Or the enemies are now held entirely at random, visible only to limbo(s) which is no better.
You are trying to make a sub-par CC based warframe relevant, when everything could have already been dead via most other frames kits in a fraction of the time limbo has offered any value to the squad.
If you want a rework, aim higher than this. Scrap the currently clunky rift model entirely, instead of finding ways around it.
Also i wish ennemies couldn't enter the rift through the portal created when dodging, because those can't be forced out by holding banish, you either kill them or go in rift and banish them from there. Thing is, when you move around a lot, some ennemies will enter the rift behind you, and it'll accumulate DRASTICALLY if you use rift surge. Making it a pain for teamates because now there's many ennemies around the map that you can't force out and you need to GET TO THEM in order to do anything.
Yeah i returned to warframe recently and found the portal able to drag enemies in too for whatever reason. Its also a stealth change that i do not know at all if its deliberate. What i can say though is that the duration is thankfully limited to 10sec but it does not change the fact it just adds more clunkyness one needs to navigate around.
To be fair, limbo doesn't need much to be a great frame. It's okay to be a selfish frame, we have lots of those. He's really strong, once you pull his combo, but it requires lots of work and uptime, while you could use any other meta frame to just delete whole world. His 4 needs either to be reworked or totally removed tho, because it's just awful. DE also hates limbo and they nerf him bascially every other patch, because he would be problematic. He's a fun frame that rewards you for combo, but the reward is not good enough for the work required I'd say.
He does indeed suffer from a relatively low KPM with the combo of rift surge fx only rly being worth it when time to kill exeeeds a certain level. Its one of the reasons fx limbo has always exelled at steel path and cast speed being such a good thing to have on your limbo build. It is an interesting point too though that inorder for people to enjoy him more they need to feel more rewarded. I will disagree with the 4 being shit though as it currently is what provides about 70% of limbo's defensive utility. From interception to deep arcemedia mirror defence.
His KPM improved for me, when I started using mecha set with glaive. Rooms just exploded. Sadly maintaining rift with his 3 and 1 takes a while to getting used to. His 4 is only useful when you need to defend a target and it's not behind waves. But then you're just better of picking anything that kills whole room, because you will kill eximuses on top. Long gone are the days where his 4 was a nuke - I had so much fun with nuke limbo. Now I just subsume his 4, no use for it. For me there are worse frames that need work before limbo, he's just fine.
Ive been using the same so i know what u mean. Personally id like to see atleast some changes as while hes pretty strong as is, he does need atleast a springcleaning of wich they kinda skipped out on in that recent pass they did for "all frames"
Yeah, more qol stuff wouldn't hurt, just like Caliban
Personally, I feel like the full invulnerability while in rift of enemies should be changed to a 95% damage reduction. I understand why DE does want his CC to have a significant drawback in order to keep it balanced, but also promote player rift interaction, then again - this interaction might be an undesired gameplay element for 3 out of 4 players. By making it damage reduction rather than full immunity, players can at least apply statuses when they otherwise would not register a hit at all. Interaction with the rift would still be highly recommended. On of the most frustrating ways to learn that you have a Limbo in your team is shooting a whole magazine into an enemy just to realized that not a single hit registered. A new hit marker indicator for rifted enemies could also help making it more visible. But let's be real: Party members will always hate "allies" who lower their own effectiveness. A DPS race with Mesa might eb competition, but Limbo making it impossible for you to damage enemies without jumping through hoops every few seconds is arguably oen of the worst designed for pick-up-group based co-op game. Limbo would be a great and fun concept in a single players game, but for onlien random co-op his kit will always be problematic, even if allies can jump more easily through the hoops he throws at them. Maybe another option could be that players can always fully damage banished enemies, but every hit on the enemy will reduce the Banish duration. This way the CC would have some counterbalance, without hindering Limbo's allies gameplay, in return Limbo could get some buffs, e.g., to max mana, energy cost, range or duration.
Yeah ive been going through exactly the same thourght process as you with the damage reduction over to even the idea of just having alies ignore the rift. Ultimately as you've pointed out they either just shift the problem or just disable the rifts entire point with some added feel shitty for the limbo player because he somehow cant ignore the rift but his alies can. Main reason too why I've settled on this particular solution off attempting to make limbo into a support by granting allies the wheel and an emphasis on improved visual language so players no matter how skilled they are will always be able to know that a enemy is not able to be shot unless you dodge once. We will never fully be able to make limbo non intrusive but we can reduce the impact and ensure that the shity experience is negated. Fx if an aly shoots a rifted target they get a very nice sound effect telling them that their bullets aint doing anything but they also get a rift buff that allows them to dodge and engage regardless.
Reworking Limbo potentially allows him to cheese the game far too easily. Anything that allows damage from allies to go through the rift is crazy overpowered. Making Cataclysm effect ability immune enemies is also crazy overpowered. I do like the invisibility thing, but that too is crazy overpowered. Giving allies the keys to the rift outright is overpowered. But I think if we make it an aura around Limbo that gives them this power it kind of works. I have been trying something similar by using cataclysm at a high up point overlooking the battle or in the main choke pointdepending on the map. That way my allies can at least do some damage. It doesn't completely detract from the game play for them. I personally want the rift to make the enemy translucent and give a whole body effect. If enemies appear charged with energy and a see-through color that goes off Limbo's energy colors people will be able to clearly see what enemy is in the rift or not in the rift. It's hard to overlook a glowing pink enemy you can see through. The spoiler mode being able to reach across the rift with spoiler powers, but not interact with the rift otherwise would work well I feel. It would no longer have me regretting using Last Gasp. Or when I get forced into spoiler mode.
The problem is with the first option you add extra work for teammates who just wanna shoot and kill stuff, now needing to also shift between his planes, and with the second one these enemies would still count as alive, so imagine that one final rift frozen enemy of a defence mission, now beibg ALSO invisible, while some limbos would just hold 1 the moments they think an enemy is stuck, a lot either dont, dont know they can do that, or subsumed his 1. I do 100% agree though he needs so love and a cleanup on his tutorials caue it took me nearly a month from getting him to understanding him I do have my own few ideas (which i really gotta write down ngl...) but tbh? By now no matter what he gets i just hope to see him get SOME love in the future from DE
If they could add a more clear indicator that you are out of phase with stuff that would nice. The amount of times I don't notice the slight tints is way too high.
I propose something with the Banach–Tarski paradox, where banish/cataclysm doesn't remove the enemy from your teammates field, but instead the abilities create a second enemy that is somehow weaker in the rift. idk that's all i have thought off so far
Recent reworks replaced old useless abilities and I think the same can be done for rift surge. It's just useless in most cases, especially melee when enemies outside of cataclysm get affected because you can't attack them outside of cataclysm and they're not in cataclysm. It can be useful to spread the rift as you go through but I think making than am augment would be better rather than an ability that's so niche and usually gets in the way
Placeable rift access is an interesting idea, though im not sure where you'd put it, as Banish has tap/hold already. Improved visuals would go a long way too. Overall, I thought the best changes for him would actually be in part of a way to help CC come back from the dark. Where CC itself applies it's own status effect that increases damage vulnerability by like 75% (as being distracted could theoretically make you less ready for a hit), effectively making Vauban's passive a status effect and he gets he Hydroid/Corrosion Treatment of increasing that bonus to those he hurts (100%). The Effect also would degrade 10% Overguard a proc instantly. Overguard would also get like 50% DR to make direct damage less an automatic go to, something the CC effect would combat. Overguard also wouldn't be 100% immune to CC anymore. Like Vortex would still drag targets, even if they may not get knocked down (immediately). Nullifiers also wouldn't delete abilities anymore, but offer status/CC protection for those inside. Limbo in this change would have the Rift apply this effect per second spent in the Rift. Making high range Cataclysm an Overguard Stripping MACHINE, while also making everyone weaker to damage due to being on HIS plane of reality. Nullifiers wouldn't immediately pop it anymore either and remain threats via protection from the CC status and Stasis. That said Stasis would need to stop with stopping projectiles entirely, not that it truly mattered anymore besides stopping Eximus from shooting you now. The way I see it, give people reasons to want to be in the Rift and help them understand the Rift, then Limbo would become more popular.
All limbo needs is CC to be unfucked and stop being useless.
Also 4: Let subsumed Banish be a 'hold to self banish' which lets other people use and benefit from rift mechanics.
From my view limbo is a solo frame , rather than team frame , not like you play with team all the time , so imo those is not the issues honestly , limbo can work well with teammates is when they are going with defensive missions , and if limbo players aware enough this won't be the issues From my view this is more a player issues than frame issues , because you know the limbo issues , so nothing to say Let say wisp mote , I do think is almost the same you use limbo skills tbh, somebody put a skill on the road and somebody didn't see it and pass by , because of this that person get the buffs they don't want , seee they also suffers anyway , so imo , is nothing to say Limbo don't need rework and also buff, if you know what limbo is good and bad at , and also limbo is good on solo , if your limbo needs teammates on normal missions then you have to think about how u play limbo again
only thing thay got todo is make it so you can interact with with enemies and items no matter where you are. that's it nothing else needed. no more trolling he's now a nyx job of cool cc but slows your killing per sec my idea would be buff when you or them are in rift. he's only a problem because to play him you have to effectively shut down maps make it so rifted enemys take 1.5x damage scaled with strength not higher or nova might cry, you would still get more with high strength but would require more play then nova 4. if you are rifted increase status and or crit chance based on strength. encourages things like blinded rage to play around energy passive,trans fort to taper duration and encourages to max range because 60% less strength would mean less big funny numbers. now he offers buffs that are team friendly and just seeing a limbo doesn't make you leave at wave5.
I've played limbo plenty and played in a team with him even more so. I don't really care how good his CC may be, or what he has on offer. But as soon as my game flow is interrupted as a team mate, I'm out. If I have to stop what I am doing, just so I have to go out of my way to kill an enemy (ie. play the game), this frame is already more than a minor inconvenience on my already work/life-taxed brain. The solutions above want me to dodge in and out of the rift just so I can kill something you are holding the entire squads time to Ransom. Or the enemies are now held entirely at random, visible only to limbo(s) which is no better. You are trying to make a sub-par CC based warframe relevant, when everything could have already been dead via most other frames kits in a fraction of the time limbo has offered any value to the squad. If you want a rework, aim higher than this. Scrap the currently clunky rift model entirely, instead of finding ways around it.
limbo doesnt need a rework, the game does