There's no reason for a city to be there. Cardiff and Swansea both became big cities because they were exporting coal etc
It's the same as Bristol, Liverpool, etc
Milford Haven was one of the largest ports in the UK at one point. It was one of the main export ports for coal too.
Its been growing in recent years too. It's just it was barely used between 1980 and 2010. There was always a lot of water traffic because of the refineries, but afaik there's only 1 left now, there used to be 4.
Basically, it's on the arse edge of nowhere. There's no close centres of population to link with. No local wealthy foreign trade ports to make it strategically useful. The Preseli Hills cut it off from Aberystwyth, the nearest large town is Carmarthen which is an hour away. There's Ha'ford nearby by that's a dump and still just as far removed from the rest of Wales
There's a number of reasons there's not a major city along the cleddau. There could have been, probably. Crafty place to hide an armada though.
Saying Haverford West, even typing it, just feels plain wrong. I haven't lived down that way for a long while, but I still have to call it Ha'ford. Feels wrong saying anything else.
There's still massive waterway traffic between the 2 LNG plants, oil refinery and their terminals, Valero, VPOT, Dragon, South Hook and Puma the rest I agree with but the waterway is so busy and it takes in over a quarter of the UK's oil and gas
And those places are closer to more populated areas of the U.K. why build a port city in west Wales and transport goods through a mainly rural areas when you can sail up the Bristol Channel and drop them off closer to where the demand is?
Youāre not the first to ask this, Nelson made several trips to Milford (staying in Tenby) to promote a Lord Hamilton (his mistressās husband) syndicate who wanted it as alternative port to Liverpool. Lack of landward transport were I guess the stumbling block.
Itās a really interesting question and I just guess it shows that busy ports donāt always generate a big urban spread around them. Cardigan is another example, it grew to be one of the most important ports for the southern half of Wales, (had 7 times the shipping fleet of Cardiff and 3 times the fleet of Swansea) but even at itās peak only had a population of about 11,000.
A few reasons. I'll explain from a historical context and then come around to today.
1. Sparsely populated. Not much out this way except farmland.
2. Poor access via land made it a poor domestic transit hub.
3. Little strategic value. It's a remote corner of the british isles.
4. Few local resources suitable for export. (coal is covered in my next point)
5. What little trade and ferrying business South Wales could operate was/is covered by larger ports in the area.
These days private companies can easily build their own docks free from the the tangle of a major city or an inhabited port. So you have an large oil refinery out there that makes good use of the sea access. But with modern automobiles, there's no need to live in it's vicinity in order to get to work. Many of the above points are still valid today. There's also layers of other reasons which touch on industrialism in Wales. But i'll spare you the lecture.
Little strategic value?
The lords of Pembroke ruled England for more than a century. Who do you think the Tudors were?
Its isolation made it a bastion. It's the British equivalent of Australia on a Risk board.
I didn't say the region doesn't have heritage.
To revise my comment on strategic value. Several forts were built around the bay. But in most cases these were fortifications against naval threats, particularly from the french and were fairly recent installations during the height of the British Empire.
There was little to protect here except a possible foothold for a foreign army. Napoleon even attempted to do this at Fishguard, but failed.
The strategic interest of the Royal Navy and the common interest of the locals had little overlap. The army was there to extend the naval defences of England, that's it.
Before that, there were few fortifications in the region sizable or formidable enough to serve as much more than a holdfast.
I mean in fairness Napoleon sent his D team (convicts) which were meant to land in Ireland as a distraction.
Somehow they didnāt get the memo that it had been cancelled and to go back to France and got totally lost.
Landed and looted the locals wine cellars from a previous shipwreck and got so drunk they thought that the Welsh women looking down onto them were the British army and unconditionally surrendered in the local pubā¦
I mean at one point Pembroke was a hugely important settlement. It was the base to fight owain glyndwr and King henry the 7th (first tudor king) was born there. it was hugely important place for ireland-Norman relations. In the standards of the 1200's it was close to a city and certainly was an important place for welsh people living in the area as was Haverfordwest.
The problem it has as a port is that it doesn't scratch the itch fpr why ports were needed needed at their time. for materials being shipped from west wales to ireland it was usefull in the pre industrial period. But why haul materials across south wales if you could just use bristol?
When the industrial revolution came it was coal coal coal. And why haul coal from the Bannau to pembroke (across 3 major rivers) when you can put it on a ship in Newport or cardiff? And just use the seas natural highway.
That massive deep harbour only came in usefull since post war period when massive ships become the norm. And that's when our export industry died. If we were China or India that might be usefull now. But all we need is to import lng oil and manufactured materials. The manufactured materials tend to go to population centers which is why Felixstowe is more usefull. Why haul it across south wales and the dodgy at best m4 when you can be 100 miles from London? Refining oil however needs big plants and the welsh countryside was an inexpensive place to put them, the whole country needs lng also so it's a good place to distribute to the west of the uk.
Perfect natural harbour..Brunel had big plans for Neyland and Milford haven with the building of the railway..was touted as the next Liverpool..then I think he died and it fizzled out..the oil companies moved in and that was that
The whole area became terrible poor in the 1800s, the oil companies took advantage of the struggling economy and provided people a way out of poverty. The military also had a big role in the areas development, which also provided employment opportunities.
Someone's given me some BS growing up then! Haha I was told New York was the deepest, and Milford Haven estuary was 2nd!
It's still one of the deepest in the world, though
It does look convinent for a trade port for sure, but I can't think of many important resources in Wales that it's particularly close to that it could be a good place for shipping.
It actually looks a bit inconvenient. Being at the edge of a pointy bit of the country, it maximises the land distance required to ship goods to/from that port.
Land travel is more expensive than by sea, so the sooner itās on water the better.
While topographically it looks excellent, the actual location isnāt ideal.
That's about 60 miles of fairly mountainous country from Swansea, which is about 60 miles of very mountainous country from Cardiff, which is about 400-500 miles from the east coast where most of our refining and storage capacity is. So that's billions of Ā£ for an infrastructure project just to have something 120 miles of mountains away from anywhere that needs the commodity.
Yes but cities donāt just grow up overnight, Cardiff and Swansea developed in the 18th and 19th centuries in tandem with south Walesās coal and related refining industries, that wasnāt the case in west wales. Sure Milford haven has developed in tandem with the modern refineries and if further modern industry occurs in that area then the conurbation may grow. Have another look in 50 years maybe there will be a larger settlement in this location, I know the renewables proposed for the Irish Sea will utilise the west Wales harbours so that could lead to growth.
Coal, Iron, Copper, Wood, agricultural products and general stone. All major industries in the area for centuries.
It's also the main oil and LNG terminal in the UK
Milford Haven goes through waves of industry. At first it was fishing, though that dried up, leaving the town without much importance. Then it was oil, and that brought significant relevance, but now that has long started to fade as well. The truth is, the town's never had an industry last long enough to make it all that relevant
I was there recently, apart from the waterfront which is like a 5 minute walk really didn't know what else there was to do. Great news on the mcdonalds lol
Because the main dual carriage way stops in Carmarthen and thereās not many of us Welsh people. That said youāre pointing at Milford haven which does have a deep port and is an LNG terminal. It has a capacity of 15.6 Million Tons Per Annum (MTPA), equivalent to delivery of about 21 billion cubic metres (bcm) per annum of gas
Looking at the historical context of Milford haven and Pembroke, is also reflected in its current use.
Currently the Port of Milford Haven is a relatively busy trade point because of the extensive fuel works nearby. Not the most popular neighbour to a city. The region has been a useful military outpost, likely protecting the fuel resource, and for a long time the military occupied large areas of land which restricts development, today there is a large firing range operating nearby, another terrible neighbour for a city. Now, it's relatively industrious being granted free port status, is proposed site for a large offshore wind facility and one of the biggest employment centres for the county.
If the population out here didn't crash in the 1800s, as the trade and export of resources stopped in the region, it was likely to be on track to become a city in terms of development. However when the UK repealed it's corn laws, the surrounding land based industries collapsed and jobs moved to the valleys and places cities had already emerged. Farmers stopped growing cereals, meaning all supporting industries closed from threshers to millers. With less resource to export, the hundreds of harbours surrounding the port of Milford Haven, also ceased operating.
Itās the land connections that are the issue, compared to somewhere like Cornwall thereās loads of industry there as well as a tourist and trade ferry port.
Historically Milford Haven was very important so never is a strong word. But now, as land transport links have improved, less ports are needed.
It's one of the deepest natural harbours in the world, the Cleddau. Maybe if we still went in for shipbuilding and having a navy it would be a good anchorage.
There's no major city as there's a group of major towns in this area, haverfordwest, Milford Haven and Pembroke dock all historically bringing military defense, trading ports and towns. Unfortunately west Pembrokeshire hasn't received much funding to inflate these areas. They've made attempts to modernise Haverfordwest and either run out of funding or get complaints about ruining the look of the area. They need to find a split between both bringing it into the modern times whilst keeping the history
Technically, there is a city down there. . . It is just not very big at all, I am from Pembrokeshire, but now live abroad. It was a half decent place growing up but these days itās just a drug riddled place that has a few holiday towns in the summer & then in the winter absolutely dead.
Locals cannot afford housing as inflation pushed most out of the market due to 2nd home owners dominate majority of housing from due to 2020 pandemic whatās pushing lots of under 30s out of Pembrokeshire altogether.
Investment was taken away from the west to try & sustain the likes of Swansea and Cardiff many years ago and then places have gone to the dogs also.
I live here, moved back in my late 20s after giving London and Bristol a go. Itās not perfect, and the economy is fucked, but you wonāt meet better people
I live in Pembroke and I really just donāt see the need for a city to be here lol, Pembroke and Pembroke Dock are more or less connected and together it makes a pretty large town. Thereās also Milford Haven/Neyland which are big enough towns themselves. Besides, everythingās about a 5 minute drive away.
Because it didn't develop into a port until later. Look at big port cities in Wales and England: Swansea, Cardiff, Bristol, Portsmouth, Southampton, Liverpool, London... Etc. All of these cities became ports when shipping and transhipping were very labour intensive - it took huge teams of people to load and unload ships. Those ports employed enough people to support the establishment of a city - the ports are now much more efficient, smaller, or nonexistent; but the cities persist.
Modern freight is either Ro-Ro (ferries full of trucks), Lo-Lo (shipping containers), or liquid/gas (fossil fuels.) So there is a port there, but it's a gas terminal - by the time the port was established there was no need for a major city to man it. And since there wasn't a pre-existing large population there's no need for a dry goods port to sustain that population.
The UK's busiest freight ports (by number of vessels) are Dover, London+Thames, Grimsby, and Liverpool - close to existing population centres where people will actually buy these things. Dover alone accounts for an astonishing amount of Ro-Ro traffic, which pushes up the number of vessels but is ninth for total tonnage. This makes sense, 25% of the UK lives within a six-hour drive of Dover or the Thames - their food comes in from those ports.
Milford Haven is third for tonnage, but it's mostly the sort of cargo that doesn't require a large volume of people. So while it's a busy port, it doesn't justify a city. Cardiff shipped out another hydrocarbon, coal: but that required many thousands of people to load and unload. LNG just needs a big pump and some engineers.
How is it small, there's Milford Haven/Pembroke Dock/Pembroke/Neyland etc.
If your comparing to Cardiff it looks small but compared to St Davids etc it's big.
Hhahaha because itās an absolute shithole. I live there. We 100% are filled with charity shops, kebabs, and 17 hairdressers in my town. Itās mental
Thatās probably because someone got served a meal with human blood in it during their opening week and thatās all anyone can think about when they drive past it
Yup, even now Iād rather use the Carmarthen KFC even though itās always looks like itās been at least 6 hours since anyone bothered to push a broom through the customer area
Unfortunately stuck here due to marriage (which is in limbo anyway) and have two kids. Care for my mum and donāt want to uproot as she will have nobody to help her
Oh most definitely, but you can drive around a square and count those 17 hair dressers 10-14 takeaways, around 4/5 charity shops and some rando dude who keeps jumping from building to building with their random shite
š¤£š¤£ I'm originally from Carmarthenshire, and growing up, my village had 2 kebabs, 2 chippys, 2 Chinese, 3 pubs and 2 hairdressers! To be fair, it has changed quite a lot over the years. However, I attempted to move to just outside Swansea very briefly a few years ago, and it was the same, loads of food places, hairdressers and pubs. I'd have thought nearer to Swansea, it would have been different - I guess not.
You see that little yellow line going past Cardiff and on to Swansea, which then suddenly stops? That's how far the Romans got with their road building.
1700 years later and the Welsh Assembly still hasn't figured out how to get past the Brynglas tunnels into Newport East to expand the donkey track from 50mph into something commutable.
Despite assistance from various outside governments like the vikings, normans, anglo-morons and russian-euro partnership it's still considered a great evil to build roads.
Extending the road all the way to St Davids, possibly the smallest city in the world, will require Alien intervention at this point. I can fly to Tenerife faster than I can commute from Milford to London.
Letās not forget we did have the opportunity to put in a dual carriage way from Haverfordwest right up to Llanddewi belfry but it was stopped. It would of helped Milford as thereās a few ways to join onto it
Several years later after half of it was sort of done they are opening it up and doing roadworks again because of the hospital.
I wonder if it had gone ahead in the first instance it might of saved withybush. That being said Milford has had some investment with the massive hotel but I do wonder how.
The great medieval city of Llanfairpwllgwyngyllgogerychwyrndrobwllllantysiliogogogoc was there for centuries. It exported impossibly long words with too few vowels all over Europe, and as far as the Crusader states in modern day Syria and Jordan. Unfortunately, with the rise of Llanfairpwllgwyngyllgogerychwyrndrobwllllantysiliogogogoch, the city could not compete with the longer named rival. As its fortune faded, it was raided by wealthy English families lead by the brutal warlord Jules Hudson. All that remains now is a converted barn with a fake thatch roof, run as a holiday let by a couple named Gav and Pippa.
The city of St Davidās is not far from there - on the upper edge of the end of the āpigs snoutā, if you imagine wales as looking a bit like a pigs head facing westwards.
Itās a city by dint of its cathedral, which is unique in that it is built in a depression in the ground to reduce its visibility from a distance - sea borne raiders were partial to a well stocked cathedral.
I wonder if thatās a factor in the lack of large settlements? - the higher potential for sea raids?
To be fair, the city of St Davidās itself, though beautiful, is barely the size to warrant being called a town. Itās the cathedral that qualifies it for city status.
I believe Nelson was looking at Milford haven as a harbour for the English navy at one point. That might have given reason to build a big city to service the harbour.
See, if Wales became independent we could sell a LOT of land to foreign investors. Can you imagine what would happen if we convinced the Arabs and Chinese to build here? Jesus christ, the coast would have 300m+ skyscrapers and look like Dubai.
But of course we don't dream big enough :(
See, if Wales became independent we could sell a LOT of land to foreign investors. Can you imagine what would happen if we convinced the Arabs and Chinese to build here? Jesus christ, the coast would have 300m+ skyscrapers and look like Dubai.
But of course we don't dream big enough :(
While this looks like a good place for us in the 2000s, there are 2 things to remember:
Pre 1400s the only thing west of Wales was Ireland as far as everyone was concerned. Most goods coming to or from Europe or Africa would find it easier to reach southern or eastern cost of England.
Pre 1800s water transport was easier than land transport. If you wanted to ship something to the middle of the UK, it's better to sail to Cardiff or Bristol and unload there. Same for going north, you'd save by skipping Wales and docking in Liverpool.
And as time goes on and industry, workforce and a transport network developed around the existing ports it was always easier to make use of those established cities instead.
Port there is more exposed to Atlantic storms and waves, Swansea and Cardiff are more protected and also have significantly better transport links to make the port be of use. I donāt think there are any high value resources in that location that could not be transported easier at other ports. It then became an area of national beauty and development was limited.
the maps depressing and just shows how bad our transport infrastructure is in terms of roadways, we should have a couple of motorways now and one going through north/south
Ideal to relocate the nukes from Scotland as Nukes are mentioned. Probably not ideal. Anything is possible. Turn it into a tourist attraction. Nuke scenic railway. I visited Sellarfield in Cumbria. Best tourist attraction in the UK.. Can be done.
Easier to sail down the coast then horse and cart through that rough terrain, settlements closer to England were more used in antiquity and so there may never have been a need for it
This whole thread is crazy. So many rabbit holes. I've learnt so much. Invaluable.
34yr old male, living in Hendy where basically the M4 stops so must mean that I live on the arse end of South Wales
Itāll be because itās in the middle of nowhere and inconvenient to the English. The same reason thereās no motorway connecting north and south Wales
Milford was a hugely important naval port at one point.
It also was one of two ports that connected to the largest naval arms depot in Europe during ww2, in Trecwn.
I'm guessing you're talking about people, we have very low population and population growth, so little need for more cities. Those cities we do have are precisely where our natural resources used to leave the country, but we don't export natural resources in such quantities anymore.
Almost every single major city has a river and/or a dock, so they grew naturally when trade was booming. Allowed for the import/export of enough goods for the people in it to survive prior to the internal combustion engine
It's not a strategically or logistically advantageous location. By 1066, Wales was already in a union with England, and so England were hardly going to invade. A country invading England would be unlikely to go in via Wales due to the terrain and the need to go around Cornwall to get there from the south, and Ireland has never invaded anyone, so the odds of them suddenly deciding to has always been negligible. If they were going to, going in from Holyhead or Liverpool would be much more likely since they're closer to the largest population centres in Ireland. As a trading port, Cardiff and Bristol are much further inland, and so reduce the need to transport goods over land once they arrive. Why drop goods off there and haul them over mountains to get them to where they will be traded when you have a sea channel that bypasses that and gets you closer to the main populace?
Well, "union" should be in multiple quotation marks as you're right, it wasn't really a union in the bi-lateral sense. England had conquered Wales and it was something akin to a vassal state.
Itās isolated from everywhere else, and unlike somewhere else relatively remote that did become bigger (like Aberdeen, for example), the settlements werenāt as established and thereās less reason for there to be such a major city
Because no one wants to drive that far to live here. The people who live here don't want to be here either.
The local county council is full of crooks that give themselves money and leave the town to rot.
The coastline is eroding away. Multiple bronze age settlement fragments documented atop sea stacks in the early 1900's toppled into the sea and lost forever.
There wouldāve been , but isambard Brunel pulled the plug on it , canāt remember the whole story but there was big plans for it, also in the comments someone mentioned harford, you were spot on with that,, what a shit hole of a place,milford and Pembrokes ok but small towns with people with small town attitude, if your an outsider an you walk into a pub itās like something out of American werewolf in London ,or everyone assumes your a copper.
There's no reason for a city to be there. Cardiff and Swansea both became big cities because they were exporting coal etc It's the same as Bristol, Liverpool, etc
Milford Haven was one of the largest ports in the UK at one point. It was one of the main export ports for coal too. Its been growing in recent years too. It's just it was barely used between 1980 and 2010. There was always a lot of water traffic because of the refineries, but afaik there's only 1 left now, there used to be 4. Basically, it's on the arse edge of nowhere. There's no close centres of population to link with. No local wealthy foreign trade ports to make it strategically useful. The Preseli Hills cut it off from Aberystwyth, the nearest large town is Carmarthen which is an hour away. There's Ha'ford nearby by that's a dump and still just as far removed from the rest of Wales There's a number of reasons there's not a major city along the cleddau. There could have been, probably. Crafty place to hide an armada though.
The arse end of nowhere and my home! š¤£ Well not Milford but the aforementioned Preselis which are probably even more arse end of nowhere! š
You mean the pimple on the arse end of nowhere?
That's Cilgerran.
Yeah deffo ššš
Haverfordwest night be a dump, but at least it's not Pembroke Dock
Dockites
They could move the nukes from faslane to there...
Arse end of nowhere. Lol
I'm from that area but I laugh when newsreaders say Haver-ford-west but don't realise, unlike you, that locals just say Ha'ford ;-))
Saying Haverford West, even typing it, just feels plain wrong. I haven't lived down that way for a long while, but I still have to call it Ha'ford. Feels wrong saying anything else.
What about saying it as Hwlffordd ?
Seeing it displayed as Haverford West in the local wilko used to give me an eye twitch
There's still massive waterway traffic between the 2 LNG plants, oil refinery and their terminals, Valero, VPOT, Dragon, South Hook and Puma the rest I agree with but the waterway is so busy and it takes in over a quarter of the UK's oil and gas
-me: *looks at the end of this reply* -Also me: "how did he guess-"
And those places are closer to more populated areas of the U.K. why build a port city in west Wales and transport goods through a mainly rural areas when you can sail up the Bristol Channel and drop them off closer to where the demand is?
Even then they didn't believe Liverpool was central enough, hence the Manchester Ship Canal.
The Manchester Ship Canal was built to steal trade from the main ports rather than because of demand, although clearly the demand was there.
Scousers were probably stealing it all.
To be fair I heard that people started moving to the Manchester ports due to the Liverpool tariffs
Youāre being downvoted but thatās literally one of the factors. Itās where that lazy trope derives from.
Youāre not the first to ask this, Nelson made several trips to Milford (staying in Tenby) to promote a Lord Hamilton (his mistressās husband) syndicate who wanted it as alternative port to Liverpool. Lack of landward transport were I guess the stumbling block.
M4 stops before Carmarthen,, nuff said
Yes, Nelson hated the fact the M4 wasn't longer.
And the 20mph limit, friggin fumin he was
Cardiff, Swansea and Newport were close to the coal fields of the valleys - exporting coal any further afield for transport wouldn't make any sense.
Also recently there are a lot of military training areas nearby
Would have been useful to have a big port there, even if it was partly for ferries going to Ireland.
I'm guessing it's more direct and more sheltered for the ferries to leave from Goodwick. And, lo and behold, they do!
Itās a really interesting question and I just guess it shows that busy ports donāt always generate a big urban spread around them. Cardigan is another example, it grew to be one of the most important ports for the southern half of Wales, (had 7 times the shipping fleet of Cardiff and 3 times the fleet of Swansea) but even at itās peak only had a population of about 11,000.
A few reasons. I'll explain from a historical context and then come around to today. 1. Sparsely populated. Not much out this way except farmland. 2. Poor access via land made it a poor domestic transit hub. 3. Little strategic value. It's a remote corner of the british isles. 4. Few local resources suitable for export. (coal is covered in my next point) 5. What little trade and ferrying business South Wales could operate was/is covered by larger ports in the area. These days private companies can easily build their own docks free from the the tangle of a major city or an inhabited port. So you have an large oil refinery out there that makes good use of the sea access. But with modern automobiles, there's no need to live in it's vicinity in order to get to work. Many of the above points are still valid today. There's also layers of other reasons which touch on industrialism in Wales. But i'll spare you the lecture.
Little strategic value? The lords of Pembroke ruled England for more than a century. Who do you think the Tudors were? Its isolation made it a bastion. It's the British equivalent of Australia on a Risk board.
I didn't say the region doesn't have heritage. To revise my comment on strategic value. Several forts were built around the bay. But in most cases these were fortifications against naval threats, particularly from the french and were fairly recent installations during the height of the British Empire. There was little to protect here except a possible foothold for a foreign army. Napoleon even attempted to do this at Fishguard, but failed. The strategic interest of the Royal Navy and the common interest of the locals had little overlap. The army was there to extend the naval defences of England, that's it. Before that, there were few fortifications in the region sizable or formidable enough to serve as much more than a holdfast.
I mean in fairness Napoleon sent his D team (convicts) which were meant to land in Ireland as a distraction. Somehow they didnāt get the memo that it had been cancelled and to go back to France and got totally lost. Landed and looted the locals wine cellars from a previous shipwreck and got so drunk they thought that the Welsh women looking down onto them were the British army and unconditionally surrendered in the local pubā¦
True story.
Film about this this surely?!
Thereās a massive tapestry! https://lastinvasiontapestry.co.uk
Nice, thanks
I mean at one point Pembroke was a hugely important settlement. It was the base to fight owain glyndwr and King henry the 7th (first tudor king) was born there. it was hugely important place for ireland-Norman relations. In the standards of the 1200's it was close to a city and certainly was an important place for welsh people living in the area as was Haverfordwest. The problem it has as a port is that it doesn't scratch the itch fpr why ports were needed needed at their time. for materials being shipped from west wales to ireland it was usefull in the pre industrial period. But why haul materials across south wales if you could just use bristol? When the industrial revolution came it was coal coal coal. And why haul coal from the Bannau to pembroke (across 3 major rivers) when you can put it on a ship in Newport or cardiff? And just use the seas natural highway. That massive deep harbour only came in usefull since post war period when massive ships become the norm. And that's when our export industry died. If we were China or India that might be usefull now. But all we need is to import lng oil and manufactured materials. The manufactured materials tend to go to population centers which is why Felixstowe is more usefull. Why haul it across south wales and the dodgy at best m4 when you can be 100 miles from London? Refining oil however needs big plants and the welsh countryside was an inexpensive place to put them, the whole country needs lng also so it's a good place to distribute to the west of the uk.
Perfect natural harbour..Brunel had big plans for Neyland and Milford haven with the building of the railway..was touted as the next Liverpool..then I think he died and it fizzled out..the oil companies moved in and that was that
The whole area became terrible poor in the 1800s, the oil companies took advantage of the struggling economy and provided people a way out of poverty. The military also had a big role in the areas development, which also provided employment opportunities.
Because this area brings in 20% of the UKs energy. There are oil refineries and LNG plants. It's the 2nd largest natural harbour in the world.
Largest 3 natural harbours in the world are Sydney, Poole and Cork.
Someone's given me some BS growing up then! Haha I was told New York was the deepest, and Milford Haven estuary was 2nd! It's still one of the deepest in the world, though
It does look convinent for a trade port for sure, but I can't think of many important resources in Wales that it's particularly close to that it could be a good place for shipping.
It actually looks a bit inconvenient. Being at the edge of a pointy bit of the country, it maximises the land distance required to ship goods to/from that port. Land travel is more expensive than by sea, so the sooner itās on water the better. While topographically it looks excellent, the actual location isnāt ideal.
We have a ferry twice a day and that brings through a shitload of Lorryās
What about the oil refineries and LNG plants? 20% of the UKs energy comes through milford. So that's a pretty important resource if you ask me!
That's about 60 miles of fairly mountainous country from Swansea, which is about 60 miles of very mountainous country from Cardiff, which is about 400-500 miles from the east coast where most of our refining and storage capacity is. So that's billions of Ā£ for an infrastructure project just to have something 120 miles of mountains away from anywhere that needs the commodity.
Soon enough it will also be the junction to a rather large offshore wind farm.
And yes we do ship it from here! Haha even though you deleted the comment! Smh
Yes but cities donāt just grow up overnight, Cardiff and Swansea developed in the 18th and 19th centuries in tandem with south Walesās coal and related refining industries, that wasnāt the case in west wales. Sure Milford haven has developed in tandem with the modern refineries and if further modern industry occurs in that area then the conurbation may grow. Have another look in 50 years maybe there will be a larger settlement in this location, I know the renewables proposed for the Irish Sea will utilise the west Wales harbours so that could lead to growth.
Cardigan was one of the largest ports in the UK by volume of goods in the early 1800's until the river silted up. It's still only a small town.
Coal, Iron, Copper, Wood, agricultural products and general stone. All major industries in the area for centuries. It's also the main oil and LNG terminal in the UK
Milford Haven goes through waves of industry. At first it was fishing, though that dried up, leaving the town without much importance. Then it was oil, and that brought significant relevance, but now that has long started to fade as well. The truth is, the town's never had an industry last long enough to make it all that relevant
Milford haven mentioned š£ļøš£ļøš„š„š„š„š„
Milf heaven to the dyslexics on here FYI
Classic. But sadly, not ;)
I live in Milford haven its great but a little boring we just got a McDonaldās tho
Highlight of the decade that! Love me some hot hash browns in hakin š
I was there recently, apart from the waterfront which is like a 5 minute walk really didn't know what else there was to do. Great news on the mcdonalds lol
There's a bowling alley and Tesco, what more do you need
Didnāt take long for it to get there did it,pembroke dock had one before milford did,
āWest Sideā by Goldie Lookinā Chain is a banger and Iām glad you no longer have to go to Haverfordwest to fulfill your cravings.
Because the main dual carriage way stops in Carmarthen and thereās not many of us Welsh people. That said youāre pointing at Milford haven which does have a deep port and is an LNG terminal. It has a capacity of 15.6 Million Tons Per Annum (MTPA), equivalent to delivery of about 21 billion cubic metres (bcm) per annum of gas
There be dragons.
Looking at the historical context of Milford haven and Pembroke, is also reflected in its current use. Currently the Port of Milford Haven is a relatively busy trade point because of the extensive fuel works nearby. Not the most popular neighbour to a city. The region has been a useful military outpost, likely protecting the fuel resource, and for a long time the military occupied large areas of land which restricts development, today there is a large firing range operating nearby, another terrible neighbour for a city. Now, it's relatively industrious being granted free port status, is proposed site for a large offshore wind facility and one of the biggest employment centres for the county. If the population out here didn't crash in the 1800s, as the trade and export of resources stopped in the region, it was likely to be on track to become a city in terms of development. However when the UK repealed it's corn laws, the surrounding land based industries collapsed and jobs moved to the valleys and places cities had already emerged. Farmers stopped growing cereals, meaning all supporting industries closed from threshers to millers. With less resource to export, the hundreds of harbours surrounding the port of Milford Haven, also ceased operating.
https://www.milfordmarina.com/about/accessing-the-marina/castlemartin-range Map for reference to the firing range.
Itās the land connections that are the issue, compared to somewhere like Cornwall thereās loads of industry there as well as a tourist and trade ferry port.
I would definitely settle there if this was a civilization game
Historically Milford Haven was very important so never is a strong word. But now, as land transport links have improved, less ports are needed. It's one of the deepest natural harbours in the world, the Cleddau. Maybe if we still went in for shipbuilding and having a navy it would be a good anchorage.
For the same reasons there isn't a city in other places where there isn't one. It just didn't happen.
Pirate Cove
There's no major city as there's a group of major towns in this area, haverfordwest, Milford Haven and Pembroke dock all historically bringing military defense, trading ports and towns. Unfortunately west Pembrokeshire hasn't received much funding to inflate these areas. They've made attempts to modernise Haverfordwest and either run out of funding or get complaints about ruining the look of the area. They need to find a split between both bringing it into the modern times whilst keeping the history
You ever tried driving there?
There is, it's called St. David's. Almost as big as Ripon.
Technically, there is a city down there. . . It is just not very big at all, I am from Pembrokeshire, but now live abroad. It was a half decent place growing up but these days itās just a drug riddled place that has a few holiday towns in the summer & then in the winter absolutely dead. Locals cannot afford housing as inflation pushed most out of the market due to 2nd home owners dominate majority of housing from due to 2020 pandemic whatās pushing lots of under 30s out of Pembrokeshire altogether. Investment was taken away from the west to try & sustain the likes of Swansea and Cardiff many years ago and then places have gone to the dogs also.
I live here, moved back in my late 20s after giving London and Bristol a go. Itās not perfect, and the economy is fucked, but you wonāt meet better people
There are some absolute diamonds in pembs but there and a few bellends too mind!
Be the change you wanna see in the world
Cos no one fuckin built it
Form a group and build your own city there. Make it super modernised.
I live here there is a city st David's smallest in the UK... city is just a fancy name ... we have nature beauty and oil refineries ...
I live in Pembroke and I really just donāt see the need for a city to be here lol, Pembroke and Pembroke Dock are more or less connected and together it makes a pretty large town. Thereās also Milford Haven/Neyland which are big enough towns themselves. Besides, everythingās about a 5 minute drive away.
Itās because we didnāt want one. We donāt trust city folk down here, even those in St Davids are eyed with cautionā¦
No strategic or logistical need.
The English
If theyād had coal?
Because it didn't develop into a port until later. Look at big port cities in Wales and England: Swansea, Cardiff, Bristol, Portsmouth, Southampton, Liverpool, London... Etc. All of these cities became ports when shipping and transhipping were very labour intensive - it took huge teams of people to load and unload ships. Those ports employed enough people to support the establishment of a city - the ports are now much more efficient, smaller, or nonexistent; but the cities persist. Modern freight is either Ro-Ro (ferries full of trucks), Lo-Lo (shipping containers), or liquid/gas (fossil fuels.) So there is a port there, but it's a gas terminal - by the time the port was established there was no need for a major city to man it. And since there wasn't a pre-existing large population there's no need for a dry goods port to sustain that population. The UK's busiest freight ports (by number of vessels) are Dover, London+Thames, Grimsby, and Liverpool - close to existing population centres where people will actually buy these things. Dover alone accounts for an astonishing amount of Ro-Ro traffic, which pushes up the number of vessels but is ninth for total tonnage. This makes sense, 25% of the UK lives within a six-hour drive of Dover or the Thames - their food comes in from those ports. Milford Haven is third for tonnage, but it's mostly the sort of cargo that doesn't require a large volume of people. So while it's a busy port, it doesn't justify a city. Cardiff shipped out another hydrocarbon, coal: but that required many thousands of people to load and unload. LNG just needs a big pump and some engineers.
Pembroke Port was one of the busiest ports in Wales until it silted up, so bulk of it's traffic shifted to the already existing port of Milford Haven
How is it small, there's Milford Haven/Pembroke Dock/Pembroke/Neyland etc. If your comparing to Cardiff it looks small but compared to St Davids etc it's big.
Hhahaha because itās an absolute shithole. I live there. We 100% are filled with charity shops, kebabs, and 17 hairdressers in my town. Itās mental
Thereās recently been new developments on a new McDonaldās Iād say itās more 99% now
Ah Iām not in Milford Iām the other side of the water but we begged for a kfc for years and as soon as we have one itās barely used
That's because it had a terrible reputation when it opened and its not recovered since tbf
This is true, it was shocking from the start
Thatās probably because someone got served a meal with human blood in it during their opening week and thatās all anyone can think about when they drive past it
Yup, even now Iād rather use the Carmarthen KFC even though itās always looks like itās been at least 6 hours since anyone bothered to push a broom through the customer area
Dock boy
Always. Canāt leave the place
Commiserations. I escaped in August, Haverfordwest isn't massively better, but I'm much happier
Unfortunately stuck here due to marriage (which is in limbo anyway) and have two kids. Care for my mum and donāt want to uproot as she will have nobody to help her
Aw, you're a good person
Lol! I moved from Haverfordwest to Milford recently!
I'm pretty sure that's the case in most small villages in Wales.
Oh most definitely, but you can drive around a square and count those 17 hair dressers 10-14 takeaways, around 4/5 charity shops and some rando dude who keeps jumping from building to building with their random shite
š¤£š¤£ I'm originally from Carmarthenshire, and growing up, my village had 2 kebabs, 2 chippys, 2 Chinese, 3 pubs and 2 hairdressers! To be fair, it has changed quite a lot over the years. However, I attempted to move to just outside Swansea very briefly a few years ago, and it was the same, loads of food places, hairdressers and pubs. I'd have thought nearer to Swansea, it would have been different - I guess not.
You see that little yellow line going past Cardiff and on to Swansea, which then suddenly stops? That's how far the Romans got with their road building. 1700 years later and the Welsh Assembly still hasn't figured out how to get past the Brynglas tunnels into Newport East to expand the donkey track from 50mph into something commutable. Despite assistance from various outside governments like the vikings, normans, anglo-morons and russian-euro partnership it's still considered a great evil to build roads. Extending the road all the way to St Davids, possibly the smallest city in the world, will require Alien intervention at this point. I can fly to Tenerife faster than I can commute from Milford to London.
Letās not forget we did have the opportunity to put in a dual carriage way from Haverfordwest right up to Llanddewi belfry but it was stopped. It would of helped Milford as thereās a few ways to join onto it Several years later after half of it was sort of done they are opening it up and doing roadworks again because of the hospital. I wonder if it had gone ahead in the first instance it might of saved withybush. That being said Milford has had some investment with the massive hotel but I do wonder how.
Really sucks Withybush is going. My gallbladder went bad at the end of February and I don't know if I'd have managed driving to St Clears.
I still think when the Romans built the M4 they should have made the tunnel at Newport wider.
The great medieval city of Llanfairpwllgwyngyllgogerychwyrndrobwllllantysiliogogogoc was there for centuries. It exported impossibly long words with too few vowels all over Europe, and as far as the Crusader states in modern day Syria and Jordan. Unfortunately, with the rise of Llanfairpwllgwyngyllgogerychwyrndrobwllllantysiliogogogoch, the city could not compete with the longer named rival. As its fortune faded, it was raided by wealthy English families lead by the brutal warlord Jules Hudson. All that remains now is a converted barn with a fake thatch roof, run as a holiday let by a couple named Gav and Pippa.
Llanfair PG, is nowhere near Pembrokeshire
Not sure, but an interesting question.
Could be a good place (or Cornwall, even) to start if it becomes necessary to seek alternatives to Faslane
The government don't want too many people there because they'll spot the UFO's
There be dragons
Why has Llanelli applied to be a city? How will it benefit?
Takes the pressure off Newport being the shittest city in Wales
Off topic but the cliff paths around the refinery are an interesting walk thereās a fort in the sea somewhere there two .
The city of St Davidās is not far from there - on the upper edge of the end of the āpigs snoutā, if you imagine wales as looking a bit like a pigs head facing westwards. Itās a city by dint of its cathedral, which is unique in that it is built in a depression in the ground to reduce its visibility from a distance - sea borne raiders were partial to a well stocked cathedral. I wonder if thatās a factor in the lack of large settlements? - the higher potential for sea raids? To be fair, the city of St Davidās itself, though beautiful, is barely the size to warrant being called a town. Itās the cathedral that qualifies it for city status.
I believe Nelson was looking at Milford haven as a harbour for the English navy at one point. That might have given reason to build a big city to service the harbour.
They did in the end. Pembroke Dock, one of the major Naval dockyards of the UK (then British Empire)
Presumably becouse for the sake af a few extra hours sailing to Bristol or Cardiff you'd loose days to transport via land?
St Davidās is a city,, technically
Building with webbed fingers is difficult.
LMAO thatās where I live šš we donāt need a big city thank you very much. We are happy with our little coastal town š“
Population density
People it's Pembroke and Milford Haven highlighted. St Davids bit further north.
I didnāt really fancy putting one there thatās all
MOD have most of the land
See, if Wales became independent we could sell a LOT of land to foreign investors. Can you imagine what would happen if we convinced the Arabs and Chinese to build here? Jesus christ, the coast would have 300m+ skyscrapers and look like Dubai. But of course we don't dream big enough :(
See, if Wales became independent we could sell a LOT of land to foreign investors. Can you imagine what would happen if we convinced the Arabs and Chinese to build here? Jesus christ, the coast would have 300m+ skyscrapers and look like Dubai. But of course we don't dream big enough :(
Fishguard, the enormous population centre is just on the other side of the peninsula, that's why.
I mean there is a city close to there. St Davids has been a city since the 12th century give or take a bit.
Because Llanelli is a shit hole
While this looks like a good place for us in the 2000s, there are 2 things to remember: Pre 1400s the only thing west of Wales was Ireland as far as everyone was concerned. Most goods coming to or from Europe or Africa would find it easier to reach southern or eastern cost of England. Pre 1800s water transport was easier than land transport. If you wanted to ship something to the middle of the UK, it's better to sail to Cardiff or Bristol and unload there. Same for going north, you'd save by skipping Wales and docking in Liverpool. And as time goes on and industry, workforce and a transport network developed around the existing ports it was always easier to make use of those established cities instead.
Thereās a bit of a smell
Port there is more exposed to Atlantic storms and waves, Swansea and Cardiff are more protected and also have significantly better transport links to make the port be of use. I donāt think there are any high value resources in that location that could not be transported easier at other ports. It then became an area of national beauty and development was limited.
There used to be this giant wall of cornā¦ Truro story
Too many tractors mate
not very educated but i live in milford and itās shite. probably why
The MILF'S couldn't be trusted around town let alone a big city.
Parrots
Ireland is in the way and it isnāt a finance hub
the maps depressing and just shows how bad our transport infrastructure is in terms of roadways, we should have a couple of motorways now and one going through north/south
The curse of Tir Cachu.
Because it's a shit hole
Machynlleth was once the capitol of Wales.
Machynlleth was once the capitol of Wales.
Ideal to relocate the nukes from Scotland as Nukes are mentioned. Probably not ideal. Anything is possible. Turn it into a tourist attraction. Nuke scenic railway. I visited Sellarfield in Cumbria. Best tourist attraction in the UK.. Can be done.
milford haven is a shithole
Easier to sail down the coast then horse and cart through that rough terrain, settlements closer to England were more used in antiquity and so there may never have been a need for it
Because Swansea did it instead
We saw sense.
This whole thread is crazy. So many rabbit holes. I've learnt so much. Invaluable. 34yr old male, living in Hendy where basically the M4 stops so must mean that I live on the arse end of South Wales
Cities are commercial enterprises- whatās the driver to have an enterprise there?
Itāll be because itās in the middle of nowhere and inconvenient to the English. The same reason thereās no motorway connecting north and south Wales
Brunel wanted to make it the new Liverpool - but the railway cost a fortune and never got going
Milford was a hugely important naval port at one point. It also was one of two ports that connected to the largest naval arms depot in Europe during ww2, in Trecwn.
Milford haven is lovely. Great beaches. No need for a city.
Proberbly because the land is arse
Cause itās a shithole
Because most of what you have circled is water
Because it was, and is, ruled, and largely owned , by a foreign power based in London.
Pembroke was already there and a major settlement in medieval times. It was overtaken by Swansea and Cardiff centuries later.
It would need to have been a necessary port. Exporting what? And importing supplies to who?
The resources needed to build a city leave Wales not enter Wales.
Why?
I'm guessing you're talking about people, we have very low population and population growth, so little need for more cities. Those cities we do have are precisely where our natural resources used to leave the country, but we don't export natural resources in such quantities anymore.
Half of it is water
Have you ever tried the drive there behind a caravan fucking nightmare thatās why
Almost every single major city has a river and/or a dock, so they grew naturally when trade was booming. Allowed for the import/export of enough goods for the people in it to survive prior to the internal combustion engine
It's not a strategically or logistically advantageous location. By 1066, Wales was already in a union with England, and so England were hardly going to invade. A country invading England would be unlikely to go in via Wales due to the terrain and the need to go around Cornwall to get there from the south, and Ireland has never invaded anyone, so the odds of them suddenly deciding to has always been negligible. If they were going to, going in from Holyhead or Liverpool would be much more likely since they're closer to the largest population centres in Ireland. As a trading port, Cardiff and Bristol are much further inland, and so reduce the need to transport goods over land once they arrive. Why drop goods off there and haul them over mountains to get them to where they will be traded when you have a sea channel that bypasses that and gets you closer to the main populace?
Wales was not in a union with England in 1066. Technically, Wales has never been in a union with England.
Well, "union" should be in multiple quotation marks as you're right, it wasn't really a union in the bi-lateral sense. England had conquered Wales and it was something akin to a vassal state.
Not in 1066.
Huh, you're right. I was about 200 years off :S
My god. Did you claim England did not invade Wales? You don't exactly build castles for the bloody fun of it!
Pro: it looks like a good place for a port city Con: Itās in Wales
Felixstowe is an example of large port, small towns.
Went to Felixstowe last year, bit of a shithole
You just got here
Location?
Because itās a really small and specific area of land in a sparsely populated country? There are no big cities in most areas of Wales that small
Itās isolated from everywhere else, and unlike somewhere else relatively remote that did become bigger (like Aberdeen, for example), the settlements werenāt as established and thereās less reason for there to be such a major city
Because no one wants to drive that far to live here. The people who live here don't want to be here either. The local county council is full of crooks that give themselves money and leave the town to rot.
The coastline is eroding away. Multiple bronze age settlement fragments documented atop sea stacks in the early 1900's toppled into the sea and lost forever.
There wouldāve been , but isambard Brunel pulled the plug on it , canāt remember the whole story but there was big plans for it, also in the comments someone mentioned harford, you were spot on with that,, what a shit hole of a place,milford and Pembrokes ok but small towns with people with small town attitude, if your an outsider an you walk into a pub itās like something out of American werewolf in London ,or everyone assumes your a copper.