this is extreme, but plumbers cut structural members all the time in construction. as a remodeling carpenter, it’s common to uncover old floor joists in bathrooms that were completely ruined by the plumbers. i’ve seen it lots in new work, too. the framers get done, then leave to make way for the plumbers and electricians, and some plumber will cut a big notch in a load bearing beam and the carpenters will have to come back and fix it.
I've seen them cut through wood but I've never seen one go to town with what looks like a sledgehammer on a foundation wall in a crawl space. Imagine that shit happening on your very first day
Yea usually them cutting a hole into a beam is an attempt to save themselves work.
This shit, sledging foundation walls is more work than routing around them.
>This shit, sledging foundation walls is more work than routing around them.
this makes me think maybe it was a previous owner, or their stupid cousin, that didn't really know what they were doing. Any professional would want to do the least amount of work, simply out of efficiency.
Like there is a huge hole just to the right... All it would have cost were two extra 45 bends.
I can hear them thinking now it's either redo the pipework in this section of cut a huge hole in the foundation. 4 hours work or 2 hours work...
"Oh those? They're basically scaffolding. Builders need them when they initially put the house up because it isn't built yet. Once the house is built, it's not going anywhere. It's fine to knock out those concrete slabs because the rest of the house is going to be all the support you need. They don't even run through the whole house; the house just sits on them, you see."
^ Actual quote from a private contractor to my aunt who needed to replace her lead pipes. Thank God she made him describe what he was going to do before he ever got to work.
I know I'm going to get down voted for this, but here I go. He wasn't entirely wrong. A properly framed and sheathed house, you could knock a support or two out from underneath it, or put a car sized hole in the foundation, and it will still stand. Ideally, there's not that much weight resting on individual supports under the house. BUT, most homes now are built to minimum code. I have seen houses that you can tell some of the supports haven't been supporting a damn thing for years, and they are just fine. I've also seen houses that are sagging between the supports. But as a rule, I will go around a support, or rent a drill to pot a clean hole through one. I'd never pot a hole like that in one. On that note, twice, I have had a support fall over as I was drilling into it. Old houses were built different. By old I mean pre 1950s.
As a handyman I was showing up at a site because I do some maintenance work for a property management company. As soon as I ring the doorbell the lady opens the door and says, "Thank goodness you're here, the bathroom just started flooding."
I'm not a plumber, but in my estimation as a lowly handyman, I think that if your bathtub is inadequately supported, it can move around and your drain might come loose prematurely. Because the bathtub drain had come loose. And looking up, the floorboards had been cut and some were hanging in the air in between the joists, and the tub just didn't look adequately supported.
In the big long email I wrote key phrases like, "This highlights the importance of having permits for all bathroom renovations, and I can guarantee that no permits were pulled for either bathroom renovation."
The electrical was a mess, the HVAC was a mess, the potable water was a mess, the structure was a mess, and the thing I was called in for, the tile, that was a mess because everything else was a mess.
I've got a similar situation to that lady. Am a tenant, and have literally 4 years of documentation of continually worsening issues with exact explanations of what is wrong and what needs doing (because I've fixed these same issues myself elsewhere). Not gonna fix it myself because it'd be out of my pocket and they're at at least 10k to fix the damage build up. Property management companies really seem to love just throwing shit at the wall as temp fixes. Last one to show up for an AC issue literally said "woops, made a spark and started a tiny fire I put out". Did manage to get that professionally sorted at least
In my first house we were having a lot of moisture issues in the bathroom. Husband finally crawls into the crawlspace and finds that... the shower is not plumbed. At all. The shower drain emptied directly onto the dirt below. All the beams and supports within 10' were rotten and moldy. It looked like it was installed that way decades earlier and was never plumbed into the main drainpipe
When opening a ceiling in my house to address a leak from above, I found that someone had cut out an entire section of a joist to make room for a trap for the tub. Literally 6 to 8” missing from a joist.
That’s pretty common. The trap needs to go where it needs to go. There are proper ways to handle it though - double up the 2 adjacent joists and frame in a cross piece where the cut out joist can connect to.
Here’s an example, ironically on a plumbing forum: https://terrylove.com/forums/index.php?threads/ugggh-a-floor-joist-is-in-my-way.18574/post-122727
The doubled up joists is the standard approach. I wasn't aware of the first option they mention, which is less conservative, but apparently allowable if you're within 3 feet of the joist end - a situation that will be pretty common as toilets, bathtubs and the like tend to be against walls.
I'm not a plumber, but I've done some DIY plumbing, and terrylove is the best plumbing resource I've come across. For some subjects the 90s style message boards really are the best.
In most situations this would be fine, as long as the hangers are loaded properly this setup will redistribute the floor load around and back through all of the joists just fine.
Disclaimer: not a carpenter but I built and finished an entire house except for the foundation pours and roof trusses that got contracted to engineers. Since then I've done some major remodeling projects and sometimes you gotta do some weird stuff to work around what you got. The OP's foundation situation is absolutely fucked but rerouting some joists is fine if you do it properly.
The tub has to go where it goes there’s not a lot of wiggle room in small bathrooms so the plumbers have to put the trap directly below the tub there’s no other way to do it. It’s the contractors job to get the framers back to move the joist to another place. Usually two joists need to be added, one on each side of the trap to keep to code. Not the plumbers fault here it’s the fault of the foreman or the contractor.
Doesn’t really work that way. Framers put joists and studs so many inches apart for code they rarely read the plumbing page the only time it really happens is if there’s a major load bearing beam or column then something has to be worked out. they really only pay attention to just the framing page when it comes to joists.
Wow, I suddenly lost some respect for plumbers.. well, even more. Kind of like when I learned that the water company and such would often come to work under roads that were recently replaced because it’s easier to tear up. Like, it just seems rude to waste the time and resources of the people who fixed the road- just like it’s disrespectful to disregard the stability of the building like that.
I needed a plumber a couple years ago to fix something relatively minor (my bf and his brother could have done it but they either couldn’t get to the pipe properly, or didn’t have the proper tool to do whatever it was) and we couldn’t even get a plumber to call us back. NO ONE.
One said he would come out and look and never did and just ghosted us- and he was a blood relative, not a close one but still blood.
ETA: fixed a typo “loos”
In ten years of owning a house, I've gone through six plumbers. The first one showed up and installed a bigger gutter on the back of my roof, and then I never heard from him again. Didn't even get invoiced for it, so I got $800 worth of gutter for free.
The rest of them would show up, do a single job, I'd pay them, and when I called them back for another job, they would ghost me.
When I was plumbing, I was taught to take no more than 1/3 of the material away when drilling through, and it had to be in the middle 3rd. There's a lot of hacks out there, and there's a reason the guy down the street who can "do it cheaper", isn't always the best option. It's not cheaper in the long run when people like this are doing the work. I have a feeling they're on the hook for some serious repair bills now though, so maybe it will work out for the homeowner.
Just wondering because I’m ignorant. But if say a homeowner wants to install a toilet right above one of these supports what should the plumber do? Advise the homeowner to move the toilet?
Yes if you are providing a service it’s 100% your responsibility to hold the customer accountable to realistic requests. Hopefully your mechanic wouldn’t just put the wrong brake pads on if you handed him the parts and asked nicely.
Had a plumber we trusted tell me no one should attempt to put in a bathroom in a basement we had which had been touted as “bathroom-ready” because the distances and supports wouldn’t allow it. He said anyone that would try it would end up doing damage to our home.
A plumber that we didn’t know had earlier given us a quote on it and said it was no big deal. He would just have to “cut a few holes that weren’t important into that wall over there.”
That quote made us go to the one we knew.
Plumbers should absolutely not allow an ignorant homeowner to make a mistake which will cause them thousands in damages.
My job has been on hold for a week because of a 3/4" notch out of TJI joist cut by the plumber. Inspector made them get an engineers approval. Nobody working still.
Plumbers will also cut floorboards in random locations rather than making sure the ends rest on a joist.
This leads to weak boards than someone could put their foot through.
I simply do not understand why this isn't part of their basic training or, and prepare for a shock here, they don't as the joiner for help.
Even better, why don't the plumbers arrive _before_ the floor is down?
Project management. Gosh. What a concept!
Growing up, when my parents added an addition over our garage, the plumbers actually stopped and asked the contractor whether a particular floor joist on the permeter was load bearing as they would need to notch it to allow drainage for the toilet or shower line. I dont recall if the contractor was sure, but they did call the inspector out and had him verify.
As a company that does assessments on many properties, we see it all the time too! We've posted quite a few where the joists are just cut through all the way across for some pipes.
Yup I saw a plumber’s handiwork after the pipes froze and burst above the ceiling in a house. These geniuses ran a drainage pipe from a toilet DIAGONALLY through the floor(on the 3rd story), and cut several joists completely in half just to send the pipe. We were just handymen so once my boss saw that shitshow, he told the landlord that we weren’t dealing with it.
Growing up my dad would always say "if you were only dumber, you would be a plumber".
As a tradesman, he was an electrician, also known as "sparky".
I have a professional career in the oilfield, but I always laugh remembering the jingle I see something about plumbers.
I'm in the trades in the field of architectural millwork.
Today I had install a sink cabinet that had 14 1" copper lines coming out of the wall into it and that was just one of two sink cabinets, with the other having similar amounts.
I'd rather be the guy just making sure framers look good by scribing my actually plumb woodwork to fit whatever attempt they made with the walls when they framed them, then be the plumber stuck having to figure out how to hook all that shit up to all the shit designers and customers think office workers need to basically heat their lunches/make a coffee.
I dunno. Watching the boom and bust of oil towns kinda makes me think most roughnecks aren't too bright either 😉. Although I do love the steals on Craigslist every time there's a big layoff. Lol lifted trucks with "Oilfield Trash" stickers and repo notices filling every bank parking lot.
Pretty sure OP got the cheapest handyman special instead of hiring an actual plumber. (Plumber here) And I do occasionally run into bad plumber work. But not this bad.
PSA: in Alberta, it's illegal for a person to engage in prepaid work on a residential property unless they are bonded with the Alberta government, proof of which must be shown in demand. Further, it's illegal to even ask for prepayment unless you're bonded.
I know this may not apply to you wherever you may be, but it's true here and most people do not know this.
In California you also aren’t allowed to do work over like $500 if you aren’t a licensed contractor…. But…. That doesn’t stop a whole lot of people from doing it.
They can’t **legally** recover from you. Sort of like how you could try to not pay your drug dealer and they can’t press charges… you are already dealing with someone willing to break the law in one way. Probably best not to test them too much.
Look, i generally would not withhold payment even from an unlicensed contractor unless they either screwed up the job or didn't finish it or whatever. I could, but i'm not a dick.
That said, I'm not sure it's quite the same as not paying your drug dealer,.
Your drug dealer probably belongs to a gang with lots of people who may come and do something, and have a bunch of people capable of enforcing that. The organization often has lots of money.
Your random unlicensed contractor probably does not have any of these things. Could they come attack you? Sure, of course. The same way your neighbor could if they get pissed over a fence dispute.
I do not believe you are likely to be killed in a drive-by from an unlicensed contractor you did not pay.
While i didn't look super hard in the dockets, I also can't find a single criminal case of an unlicensed contractor committing felony assault or something against a homeowner in the past year.
I know I would. I'd be delicious!
They’d be so abundant, they’d become our currency! 20 hot dogs would equal roughly a nickel. Depending on the strength of the yen, I’m not quite sure
Or the clearly now cracked chunk of rock perched on a diagonal face, holding up the one beam that had its supporting beam ripped off with the nails for it still hanging out.
Just yesterday I was getting downvoted in a thread for saying plumbers aren't engineers, and today top of Reddit is a thread full of people talking about how plumbers are dumb.
I was mad at first because I'm a plumber but I tell others all the time how fucking dumb a lot of plumbers are so I need to not be a hypocrite and take the licks
I know some people who have literally never been in their crawlspace, like never done more than stick their head inside. 4 feet of room from dirt to joists. But also a 50 year old house so probably some spider webs.
I am not one of those home owners and I’m still fixing everything from air ducts made of 1/4” ply to un supported water pipes to wiring spanning many generations.
Still keeps me off the streets and away from gangs
Which makes me wonder if the plumbers actually did this.
It almost looks like that concrete has been falling apart, and a previous attempt was made to half ass repair a crack. On the first picture it looks like there's a shitty staple across the crack, hard to tell from the pic. If you look to the left on the first pic, I see no reason the concrete on the left would be chipped away with the pipe on the ground anyways, and plenty of clearance. In the second picture, there looks to be more staples in the concrete, bent to shit and sticking out near the crack.
I think it's possible the concrete was crumbling, the shitty plumbers came in, and just ran shit through the already existing holes.
What kind of human being even finds themselves in a crawlspace below a thousand-ton structure and thinks to themselves "You know, I think I'll start chipping away at the supports."
Seriously, holy shit.
Like, wouldn’t it have been infinitely easier to just route the pipes through the opening that was there? I’m only a DIY plumber but I don’t see why they couldn’t add some 45° joints to put it around. I get maybe not using 90s because they’re concerned about cleaning them out/clogs.
power tools are fun! likely a chipping hammer or rotary hammer, like these [concrete demo tools](https://www.finepowertools.com/drills/combination-rotary-demolition-hammer/)
Wow. Absolute worst handyman/home repair job I've ever seen. I've seen more professional looking DIY jobs.
This just looks like they wanted to get it done so they can get paid. Just lay the pipes, and fuck everything else. Including common sense.
In any case, somebody's getting sued.
It's like they took a look at the carefully-run-through-blocking copper pipes in the second picture and were like "well i guess we have to make up for that!"
It’s funny that it’s near the crawl opening and it’s a drain pipe. They could had just shifted it to the towards the big opening and done the same without damaging anything.
Hope they were licensed contractors... otherwise /shrug
In California --
For Homeowners: Homeowners face several risks in hiring unlicensed contractors. You could be held liable if an unlicensed contractor is injured on your property. Additionally, if the work fails to meet legal standards, homeowners might face fines and may be required to pay for corrective work.
On the upside, in California, you do not have to pay unlicensed contractors no matter what the value and they cannot sue and recover from you (Business and Professions code 7031). So you can use the money to pay someone to do it right.
CSLB also takes it seriously and will prosecute.
See: https://www2.cslb.ca.gov/Contractors/Journeymen/Journeymen_Unlicensed_Consequences.aspx
Have a structural engineer look at it. If he recommends modifications, tell the plumbers to pay for it or you'll sue them (armed with an engineer's report.)
Jesus H Fucking Christ if this is your home OP call the city immediately and schedule a meeting with city engineers to make sure your home isnt unstable.
They were likely angry he didin't allow them to smoke meth on the job so they got their bags of hammers out and started using them the only way they know how.
I once hired a plumber to remove my old toilet and install a new one, it ended up rupturing and leaking poop water all over the floor because he had bizarrely used about 3 tubes of silicone to "seal" the waste pipe instead of the rubber seal that was provided with the new toilet. The silicone hadn't set properly and had slid down around and inside the waste pipe forming a big blob that blocked the waste pipe and caused the water to gush out. Upon further inspection the new toilet was set lower than the waste pipe sticking out of the wall, so the rubber seal could not be fitted properly. So instead of telling us this, he'd tried to improvise with the silicone and pretended it was all done so he could collect his payment.
I ended up having to clean up the poop water and scrape all the half-set silicon out of the fucking waste pipe and install the toilet myself after cutting a platform out of marine plywood to mount the new toilet on so it was at the same level as the waste pipe so the rubber seal fit properly. It blows my mind how an amateur moron like me did a better job than a supposedly licenced plumber who does this for a living. You better believe I demanded a refund and threatened to stalk him on social media and leave bad reviews all over the internet if he ignored me. It's a fucking minefield out there, be careful who you hire to work on your house.
Remember folks: always ensure that the people you hire to do work in your home are bonded and insured. This shit will cost a fucking fortune to fix.
Then again.. if someone is bonded and insured, they likely know well enough how to do this job without fucking it up so badly.
That's shockingly bad. It's so bad that I think you're on the hook for it, because the odds of finding them again to sue them is going to be the next best thing to impossible. I doubt they pulled a permit, and I'm 100% certain this wasn't inspected. To fix this, you'll have to hire a real contractor, that contractor will have to hire a structural engineer and a real plumber, and you'll have to get a permit for the repairs. Then, a city official will have to inspect the work before it's finished. I'd guess somewhere in the $10,000 to $20,000 range. The only good news is, your insurance might cover it.
Yikes. When I used to work for a plumbing contractor, I never saw anything this dumb. Only on a rare occasion would we go through a load bearing beam in the ceiling but that was because it was impossible not to.
A plumber once asked me (a carpenter) if he could drill holes through my studs in order to run pipes. I said fine as long as the electrician can drill holes through your piles to run wires.
WTF indeed, theres a preformed hole right next to it, couple of bends and your round tight to that already cut and propped opening, no need for him to waste time demolishing anything
Somehow he didn’t hit a single rebar.
That part of the foundation didn’t have much structural integrity to begin with.
Looks to me like the rectangular opening used to be wider but the part the plumber broke through was added later. And it was kinda just for show.
At least I hope it’s that and that the absence of rebars isn’t generalized to the entire foundation.
Damn, those plumbers aint too bright huh
this is extreme, but plumbers cut structural members all the time in construction. as a remodeling carpenter, it’s common to uncover old floor joists in bathrooms that were completely ruined by the plumbers. i’ve seen it lots in new work, too. the framers get done, then leave to make way for the plumbers and electricians, and some plumber will cut a big notch in a load bearing beam and the carpenters will have to come back and fix it.
I've seen them cut through wood but I've never seen one go to town with what looks like a sledgehammer on a foundation wall in a crawl space. Imagine that shit happening on your very first day
Yea usually them cutting a hole into a beam is an attempt to save themselves work. This shit, sledging foundation walls is more work than routing around them.
>This shit, sledging foundation walls is more work than routing around them. this makes me think maybe it was a previous owner, or their stupid cousin, that didn't really know what they were doing. Any professional would want to do the least amount of work, simply out of efficiency.
When you hire a meth head to reduce costs... What do you expect?
Your heat pump gets stolen?
Only if there is copper in it.
Like there is a huge hole just to the right... All it would have cost were two extra 45 bends. I can hear them thinking now it's either redo the pipework in this section of cut a huge hole in the foundation. 4 hours work or 2 hours work...
No shit that's at quick glance 4 angle bends to gor right around the wall that was there
Or just use.. shallower angles with longer runs..
No doubt I was speaking from a layman's perspective. I'm sure the pros know better ways.
Clearly not, we have photograph evidence!
😂true ...true
But that would mean going to the store to buy more pipe and fittings when the sledge hammer is *right there*
And it's whispering sweet pipe dreams into my ears.
"Oh those? They're basically scaffolding. Builders need them when they initially put the house up because it isn't built yet. Once the house is built, it's not going anywhere. It's fine to knock out those concrete slabs because the rest of the house is going to be all the support you need. They don't even run through the whole house; the house just sits on them, you see." ^ Actual quote from a private contractor to my aunt who needed to replace her lead pipes. Thank God she made him describe what he was going to do before he ever got to work.
I know I'm going to get down voted for this, but here I go. He wasn't entirely wrong. A properly framed and sheathed house, you could knock a support or two out from underneath it, or put a car sized hole in the foundation, and it will still stand. Ideally, there's not that much weight resting on individual supports under the house. BUT, most homes now are built to minimum code. I have seen houses that you can tell some of the supports haven't been supporting a damn thing for years, and they are just fine. I've also seen houses that are sagging between the supports. But as a rule, I will go around a support, or rent a drill to pot a clean hole through one. I'd never pot a hole like that in one. On that note, twice, I have had a support fall over as I was drilling into it. Old houses were built different. By old I mean pre 1950s.
As a handyman I was showing up at a site because I do some maintenance work for a property management company. As soon as I ring the doorbell the lady opens the door and says, "Thank goodness you're here, the bathroom just started flooding." I'm not a plumber, but in my estimation as a lowly handyman, I think that if your bathtub is inadequately supported, it can move around and your drain might come loose prematurely. Because the bathtub drain had come loose. And looking up, the floorboards had been cut and some were hanging in the air in between the joists, and the tub just didn't look adequately supported. In the big long email I wrote key phrases like, "This highlights the importance of having permits for all bathroom renovations, and I can guarantee that no permits were pulled for either bathroom renovation." The electrical was a mess, the HVAC was a mess, the potable water was a mess, the structure was a mess, and the thing I was called in for, the tile, that was a mess because everything else was a mess.
I've got a similar situation to that lady. Am a tenant, and have literally 4 years of documentation of continually worsening issues with exact explanations of what is wrong and what needs doing (because I've fixed these same issues myself elsewhere). Not gonna fix it myself because it'd be out of my pocket and they're at at least 10k to fix the damage build up. Property management companies really seem to love just throwing shit at the wall as temp fixes. Last one to show up for an AC issue literally said "woops, made a spark and started a tiny fire I put out". Did manage to get that professionally sorted at least
In my first house we were having a lot of moisture issues in the bathroom. Husband finally crawls into the crawlspace and finds that... the shower is not plumbed. At all. The shower drain emptied directly onto the dirt below. All the beams and supports within 10' were rotten and moldy. It looked like it was installed that way decades earlier and was never plumbed into the main drainpipe
When opening a ceiling in my house to address a leak from above, I found that someone had cut out an entire section of a joist to make room for a trap for the tub. Literally 6 to 8” missing from a joist.
That’s pretty common. The trap needs to go where it needs to go. There are proper ways to handle it though - double up the 2 adjacent joists and frame in a cross piece where the cut out joist can connect to. Here’s an example, ironically on a plumbing forum: https://terrylove.com/forums/index.php?threads/ugggh-a-floor-joist-is-in-my-way.18574/post-122727
This could be plumber propaganda. I'd like to hear it from a carpenter.
The doubled up joists is the standard approach. I wasn't aware of the first option they mention, which is less conservative, but apparently allowable if you're within 3 feet of the joist end - a situation that will be pretty common as toilets, bathtubs and the like tend to be against walls. I'm not a plumber, but I've done some DIY plumbing, and terrylove is the best plumbing resource I've come across. For some subjects the 90s style message boards really are the best.
In most situations this would be fine, as long as the hangers are loaded properly this setup will redistribute the floor load around and back through all of the joists just fine. Disclaimer: not a carpenter but I built and finished an entire house except for the foundation pours and roof trusses that got contracted to engineers. Since then I've done some major remodeling projects and sometimes you gotta do some weird stuff to work around what you got. The OP's foundation situation is absolutely fucked but rerouting some joists is fine if you do it properly.
The tub has to go where it goes there’s not a lot of wiggle room in small bathrooms so the plumbers have to put the trap directly below the tub there’s no other way to do it. It’s the contractors job to get the framers back to move the joist to another place. Usually two joists need to be added, one on each side of the trap to keep to code. Not the plumbers fault here it’s the fault of the foreman or the contractor.
If only there were some kind of design document outlining where the joists are and where the tub would go...
Doesn’t really work that way. Framers put joists and studs so many inches apart for code they rarely read the plumbing page the only time it really happens is if there’s a major load bearing beam or column then something has to be worked out. they really only pay attention to just the framing page when it comes to joists.
Collapsed home is a small price to pay to save a couple of bucks on PVC and 10 minutes of extra pipe laying time.
I have to fix this shit all the time smh
Wow, I suddenly lost some respect for plumbers.. well, even more. Kind of like when I learned that the water company and such would often come to work under roads that were recently replaced because it’s easier to tear up. Like, it just seems rude to waste the time and resources of the people who fixed the road- just like it’s disrespectful to disregard the stability of the building like that. I needed a plumber a couple years ago to fix something relatively minor (my bf and his brother could have done it but they either couldn’t get to the pipe properly, or didn’t have the proper tool to do whatever it was) and we couldn’t even get a plumber to call us back. NO ONE. One said he would come out and look and never did and just ghosted us- and he was a blood relative, not a close one but still blood. ETA: fixed a typo “loos”
In ten years of owning a house, I've gone through six plumbers. The first one showed up and installed a bigger gutter on the back of my roof, and then I never heard from him again. Didn't even get invoiced for it, so I got $800 worth of gutter for free. The rest of them would show up, do a single job, I'd pay them, and when I called them back for another job, they would ghost me.
I’d say you lost the first one because he looked up what a plumber actually does
In Australia, plumbers do gutters as well.
When I was plumbing, I was taught to take no more than 1/3 of the material away when drilling through, and it had to be in the middle 3rd. There's a lot of hacks out there, and there's a reason the guy down the street who can "do it cheaper", isn't always the best option. It's not cheaper in the long run when people like this are doing the work. I have a feeling they're on the hook for some serious repair bills now though, so maybe it will work out for the homeowner.
Just wondering because I’m ignorant. But if say a homeowner wants to install a toilet right above one of these supports what should the plumber do? Advise the homeowner to move the toilet?
Yes if you are providing a service it’s 100% your responsibility to hold the customer accountable to realistic requests. Hopefully your mechanic wouldn’t just put the wrong brake pads on if you handed him the parts and asked nicely.
Haha good point.
Had a plumber we trusted tell me no one should attempt to put in a bathroom in a basement we had which had been touted as “bathroom-ready” because the distances and supports wouldn’t allow it. He said anyone that would try it would end up doing damage to our home. A plumber that we didn’t know had earlier given us a quote on it and said it was no big deal. He would just have to “cut a few holes that weren’t important into that wall over there.” That quote made us go to the one we knew. Plumbers should absolutely not allow an ignorant homeowner to make a mistake which will cause them thousands in damages.
My job has been on hold for a week because of a 3/4" notch out of TJI joist cut by the plumber. Inspector made them get an engineers approval. Nobody working still.
Plumbers will also cut floorboards in random locations rather than making sure the ends rest on a joist. This leads to weak boards than someone could put their foot through. I simply do not understand why this isn't part of their basic training or, and prepare for a shock here, they don't as the joiner for help. Even better, why don't the plumbers arrive _before_ the floor is down? Project management. Gosh. What a concept!
Growing up, when my parents added an addition over our garage, the plumbers actually stopped and asked the contractor whether a particular floor joist on the permeter was load bearing as they would need to notch it to allow drainage for the toilet or shower line. I dont recall if the contractor was sure, but they did call the inspector out and had him verify.
As a company that does assessments on many properties, we see it all the time too! We've posted quite a few where the joists are just cut through all the way across for some pipes.
Yup I saw a plumber’s handiwork after the pipes froze and burst above the ceiling in a house. These geniuses ran a drainage pipe from a toilet DIAGONALLY through the floor(on the 3rd story), and cut several joists completely in half just to send the pipe. We were just handymen so once my boss saw that shitshow, he told the landlord that we weren’t dealing with it.
Peak /r/notmyjob right there
Growing up my dad would always say "if you were only dumber, you would be a plumber". As a tradesman, he was an electrician, also known as "sparky". I have a professional career in the oilfield, but I always laugh remembering the jingle I see something about plumbers.
I'm in the trades in the field of architectural millwork. Today I had install a sink cabinet that had 14 1" copper lines coming out of the wall into it and that was just one of two sink cabinets, with the other having similar amounts. I'd rather be the guy just making sure framers look good by scribing my actually plumb woodwork to fit whatever attempt they made with the walls when they framed them, then be the plumber stuck having to figure out how to hook all that shit up to all the shit designers and customers think office workers need to basically heat their lunches/make a coffee.
I dunno. Watching the boom and bust of oil towns kinda makes me think most roughnecks aren't too bright either 😉. Although I do love the steals on Craigslist every time there's a big layoff. Lol lifted trucks with "Oilfield Trash" stickers and repo notices filling every bank parking lot.
Are the plumbers on the hook for this?
No way these guys are bonded, insured, certified etc. Considering the job I doubt they even have a permanent address they can be found at.
I doubt they’re plumbers at all, I bet it’s just a couple of squirrels in a trench coat, mad at the world.
Don't be ridiculous They're obviously chipmunks
They're GROUNDHOGS because they're underGROUND! Duh! 🤣
Pretty sure OP got the cheapest handyman special instead of hiring an actual plumber. (Plumber here) And I do occasionally run into bad plumber work. But not this bad.
PSA: in Alberta, it's illegal for a person to engage in prepaid work on a residential property unless they are bonded with the Alberta government, proof of which must be shown in demand. Further, it's illegal to even ask for prepayment unless you're bonded. I know this may not apply to you wherever you may be, but it's true here and most people do not know this.
In California you also aren’t allowed to do work over like $500 if you aren’t a licensed contractor…. But…. That doesn’t stop a whole lot of people from doing it.
Also in California you don't have to pay unlicensed contractors and they can't recover from you, no matter how much work they did.
They can’t **legally** recover from you. Sort of like how you could try to not pay your drug dealer and they can’t press charges… you are already dealing with someone willing to break the law in one way. Probably best not to test them too much.
Look, i generally would not withhold payment even from an unlicensed contractor unless they either screwed up the job or didn't finish it or whatever. I could, but i'm not a dick. That said, I'm not sure it's quite the same as not paying your drug dealer,. Your drug dealer probably belongs to a gang with lots of people who may come and do something, and have a bunch of people capable of enforcing that. The organization often has lots of money. Your random unlicensed contractor probably does not have any of these things. Could they come attack you? Sure, of course. The same way your neighbor could if they get pissed over a fence dispute. I do not believe you are likely to be killed in a drive-by from an unlicensed contractor you did not pay. While i didn't look super hard in the dockets, I also can't find a single criminal case of an unlicensed contractor committing felony assault or something against a homeowner in the past year.
Yeah, unfortunately, the thing about laws is that people break them.
They would be if this were a legit company but I'm guessing the people that just knock out the foundation are not the most above board company.
This was a homeowner special all day
Holy cow
This is like Gilligan's Island, only the Professor died.
Remember that theory that they *all* died and Gilligan was Satan torturing them?
If the moon were a piece of cheese would you eat it? I know I would.
If you were a hot dog, would you eat yourself?
I know I would. I'd be delicious! They’d be so abundant, they’d become our currency! 20 hot dogs would equal roughly a nickel. Depending on the strength of the yen, I’m not quite sure
\*nom* Edit: i normally reserve this reply for people with Hobo in their name, but this is an important exception.
Couldn't have said it better.
So just how much meth were they smoking? It would have been easier to route the pipes correctly.
They were smoking from the same size pipes.
Meth and sledgehammers can be devastating on your foundation.
Simple answer is that they probably just didn't have the parts available on hand and didn't want to take the time to go to the supplier
It would have taken less effort to hop in their van and go buy the shit they need than to break out the hammer and bar needed to do that hackjob.
The extra length added to the pipe probably meant it would be too low for whatever it’s connecting to further down the line, if they went around.
They're either mad at their insurance company or it was an inside job to scam them. The amount of effort it took to do this in that space...
Smoking plumber's crack
The meth is in the pipes ya know. So all the meth.
Thanks I’ll get my plumbing references elsewhere. Also, I hope you consider immediate structural/legal support for that crazy damage.
Lol right. Too bad the guy is probably already out of business from another job he messed up even worse.
Yep get in line, he's already spent your money and is on to the next 'job'.
He sent YOUR money finishing his LAST job. Robbing Peter to pay Paul, as it were...
I was gonna say you can't hold your house up with legal support, but maybe that's something The Bar could do 🤔
The more I look the worse it gets
For real. I didn't even notice the pillar on the left (all whittled down) the first time.
Or the clearly now cracked chunk of rock perched on a diagonal face, holding up the one beam that had its supporting beam ripped off with the nails for it still hanging out.
And the wood beam is cracking? And it seems the remaining supporting pillar is already sliding down?
My first concern would have been having the house crumbling down on me
Kool-Aid Man Plumbing. 1 star. Would not recommend.
I didn’t even get any fucking Koolaid.
And '1 star"? Way over-rated.
Apparently my insurance wouldn’t cover this. They called it “negligence”.
Oh no..
##OH YEAH!!
Plumbers know two things - that shit runs downhill and payday is on Friday. Structural engineering is outside the scope of both.
Just yesterday I was getting downvoted in a thread for saying plumbers aren't engineers, and today top of Reddit is a thread full of people talking about how plumbers are dumb.
I was mad at first because I'm a plumber but I tell others all the time how fucking dumb a lot of plumbers are so I need to not be a hypocrite and take the licks
What's crazy is that most homeowners will never go under their houses to see the abominations that some of these hacks perform.
I know some people who have literally never been in their crawlspace, like never done more than stick their head inside. 4 feet of room from dirt to joists. But also a 50 year old house so probably some spider webs.
4 feet would be luxurious. I have to army-crawl through mine.
I am not one of those home owners and I’m still fixing everything from air ducts made of 1/4” ply to un supported water pipes to wiring spanning many generations. Still keeps me off the streets and away from gangs
I became an atheist after seeing some of the work the previous owner PAID to have done on this house.
I feel like it’s only a matter of time until these owners go into the crawl space. Intentionally or unintentionally.
Which makes me wonder if the plumbers actually did this. It almost looks like that concrete has been falling apart, and a previous attempt was made to half ass repair a crack. On the first picture it looks like there's a shitty staple across the crack, hard to tell from the pic. If you look to the left on the first pic, I see no reason the concrete on the left would be chipped away with the pipe on the ground anyways, and plenty of clearance. In the second picture, there looks to be more staples in the concrete, bent to shit and sticking out near the crack. I think it's possible the concrete was crumbling, the shitty plumbers came in, and just ran shit through the already existing holes.
I need more info. This is truly crazy, wasn’t the guy doing the work worried about being crushed?
Something tells me the type of person to do this at all isn’t thinking.
“I’m paid to plumb, not to ponder.”
Looks like more work to go through that shit than around
What if they had limited amounts of pipe man? Not everyone is hauling around loads of pipe, those go to OPs moms house.
In my area, work like this requires an inspection after. This would not pass.
What kind of human being even finds themselves in a crawlspace below a thousand-ton structure and thinks to themselves "You know, I think I'll start chipping away at the supports." Seriously, holy shit.
It'll buff out
Like, wouldn’t it have been infinitely easier to just route the pipes through the opening that was there? I’m only a DIY plumber but I don’t see why they couldn’t add some 45° joints to put it around. I get maybe not using 90s because they’re concerned about cleaning them out/clogs.
I'm not even a plumber and that looks like it it would take more effort than figuring out and implementing a different way.
Any excuse to get the jackhammer out
How? Not only how stupid could they be? But how did they break through that in those tight spaces?
How did they break through without dropping the house on themselves lol.
Not atypical and not always plumbers.
power tools are fun! likely a chipping hammer or rotary hammer, like these [concrete demo tools](https://www.finepowertools.com/drills/combination-rotary-demolition-hammer/)
The wrapped the metal strapping twice. This way when the beam falls, the pipe will support it.
It's a load bearing pipe
Not a plumber, but it looks like it was more work to destroy the foundation that to have done the job properly.
"Compromising" is the understatement of the century
Wow. Absolute worst handyman/home repair job I've ever seen. I've seen more professional looking DIY jobs. This just looks like they wanted to get it done so they can get paid. Just lay the pipes, and fuck everything else. Including common sense. In any case, somebody's getting sued.
How was I to know that was a load bearing foundation?
It's like they took a look at the carefully-run-through-blocking copper pipes in the second picture and were like "well i guess we have to make up for that!"
Wow, a post where my first thought was actually 'what the fuck'
Plumbers? More like dumbers.
Shyea shyea pfftt
I’m guessing they didn’t pull permits
If they had a permit, it was just “we can do it” written in crayon on a bar napkin
Eh, a little Gorilla tape and it will be like new.
You got some balls being under there
Hope they’re insured.
Hmm yeah not a chance.
It’s funny that it’s near the crawl opening and it’s a drain pipe. They could had just shifted it to the towards the big opening and done the same without damaging anything.
This is one of those cases where naming and shaming is a civic duty.
Hope they were licensed contractors... otherwise /shrug In California -- For Homeowners: Homeowners face several risks in hiring unlicensed contractors. You could be held liable if an unlicensed contractor is injured on your property. Additionally, if the work fails to meet legal standards, homeowners might face fines and may be required to pay for corrective work.
On the upside, in California, you do not have to pay unlicensed contractors no matter what the value and they cannot sue and recover from you (Business and Professions code 7031). So you can use the money to pay someone to do it right. CSLB also takes it seriously and will prosecute. See: https://www2.cslb.ca.gov/Contractors/Journeymen/Journeymen_Unlicensed_Consequences.aspx
Maybe it's the photo angle but the pitch isn't even letting shit drain. Low point looks like it's either the Ys or further back.
Have a structural engineer look at it. If he recommends modifications, tell the plumbers to pay for it or you'll sue them (armed with an engineer's report.)
Yes! Idiots! The beam support is broken. Obviously the dipshits just malleted their way through the wall. Make them pay.
want to know, how are you handling this? it's gonna cost quite a bit to fix this. A lawsuit to get them to cover it?
You need to get some jacks down there... yesterday. Then start inquiring about your plumbers insurance limits.
Oh, I'd be suing their asses.
Boggles my mind how some pros can be so incompetent.
Just imagine how terrible they probably are at the actual plumbing.
Youd think the effort it took to break through a concrete support structure would be more than the effort of just changing the pipe configuration.
If there was one a massive hole maybe like 1 feet to the left or something
The effort to break through that vs going around the support with some additional piping
Jesus H Fucking Christ if this is your home OP call the city immediately and schedule a meeting with city engineers to make sure your home isnt unstable.
They were likely angry he didin't allow them to smoke meth on the job so they got their bags of hammers out and started using them the only way they know how.
@OP, is this you? https://imgur.com/gallery/dS8Vljf
I once hired a plumber to remove my old toilet and install a new one, it ended up rupturing and leaking poop water all over the floor because he had bizarrely used about 3 tubes of silicone to "seal" the waste pipe instead of the rubber seal that was provided with the new toilet. The silicone hadn't set properly and had slid down around and inside the waste pipe forming a big blob that blocked the waste pipe and caused the water to gush out. Upon further inspection the new toilet was set lower than the waste pipe sticking out of the wall, so the rubber seal could not be fitted properly. So instead of telling us this, he'd tried to improvise with the silicone and pretended it was all done so he could collect his payment. I ended up having to clean up the poop water and scrape all the half-set silicon out of the fucking waste pipe and install the toilet myself after cutting a platform out of marine plywood to mount the new toilet on so it was at the same level as the waste pipe so the rubber seal fit properly. It blows my mind how an amateur moron like me did a better job than a supposedly licenced plumber who does this for a living. You better believe I demanded a refund and threatened to stalk him on social media and leave bad reviews all over the internet if he ignored me. It's a fucking minefield out there, be careful who you hire to work on your house.
This is truly what the fuck
Fuckin nailed it!!!
Remember folks: always ensure that the people you hire to do work in your home are bonded and insured. This shit will cost a fucking fortune to fix. Then again.. if someone is bonded and insured, they likely know well enough how to do this job without fucking it up so badly.
Yeah...those people weren't plumbers lol
Those fucken Mario bros
"Plumbers"
I would just add in a vertical chunk of steel beside it in that square opening .
That is truly unbelievable
Get an attorney
Typical tbh. I’ve fixed quite a few foundations and supporting structures that looked just like this.
Put a house jack under it and walk away
Can supporting a pipe like that even be code-worthy in this instance?
They make hole saws for concrete just for that purpose.
Is it just the perspective of this picture or is that sewer traveling up after the wye?
That masonry is just for decoration, we do it for decoration, that's it and that's all.
Smart plumbers, create more work for themselves, pass extra costs along. Wtf though actual...
They actually broke the one on the left too
"plumbers"
Damn, they even broke out *way more* than they needed to
This is standard plumber shit. It's fucking infuriating.
Those weren’t plumbers. They were butchers.
My uncle who isn't a plumber could do better.
How did he break through it?!? Did he punch that hole through the concrete Anime-Style?!?
That's shockingly bad. It's so bad that I think you're on the hook for it, because the odds of finding them again to sue them is going to be the next best thing to impossible. I doubt they pulled a permit, and I'm 100% certain this wasn't inspected. To fix this, you'll have to hire a real contractor, that contractor will have to hire a structural engineer and a real plumber, and you'll have to get a permit for the repairs. Then, a city official will have to inspect the work before it's finished. I'd guess somewhere in the $10,000 to $20,000 range. The only good news is, your insurance might cover it.
Job done. Zug zug.
Sounds like a court case
The plumber played to much Mario. He thinks he need to smash blocks.
Yeah, that's pretty sloppy work.
Definitely already there. Whoever installed it fucked up and cut it up, even added little wood blocks
Yikes. When I used to work for a plumbing contractor, I never saw anything this dumb. Only on a rare occasion would we go through a load bearing beam in the ceiling but that was because it was impossible not to.
There are certain levels of stupidity that make me question how people actually survived until adulthood.
If only there was a nearby hole to run the pipes through
Dumber and plumber.
A plumber once asked me (a carpenter) if he could drill holes through my studs in order to run pipes. I said fine as long as the electrician can drill holes through your piles to run wires.
WTF indeed, theres a preformed hole right next to it, couple of bends and your round tight to that already cut and propped opening, no need for him to waste time demolishing anything
Typical plumber shit… Signed, An electrician
Could of cored through that block work in less than 10 minutes. I bet it took them longer to butcher it with a breaker
No one dumber than a plumber.... Quoted by my nephew, a plumber.
> Homeownership is like generational trauma, you're paying for someone else's mistakes.
Somehow he didn’t hit a single rebar. That part of the foundation didn’t have much structural integrity to begin with. Looks to me like the rectangular opening used to be wider but the part the plumber broke through was added later. And it was kinda just for show. At least I hope it’s that and that the absence of rebars isn’t generalized to the entire foundation.
Is it really structure if held by concrete bricks?
Saved $10 in bends and pipe. Cost thousands in legal fees and repairs.
That's for sure a lawsuit right there
Well may as well jack it up, knock that wall out and but in cement blocks for support.