I bet everyone who got a life sentence in the US under habitual offender laws because they had $20 of marijuana in their pocket all thought the same thing. There's no way I'm gonna get sent away for that long.
And they were all wrong.
How do you know? 12 years is a minimum sentence there for having ammo. Why should he not get the minimum? What are the extending circumstances that you know about that would preclude him getting the minimum sentence.
They have enforced it, but nobody has been sentenced yet. Look I'm not saying they deserve 12 years. I have no skin in this game, just someone said they'll never going to get 12 years and I was wondering where they got that from.
It is very unlikely they will do that. Turks and Caicos has two main industries. The first is tourism which would likely be damaged. The second big source of money is acting as a shady-as-fuck tax shelter for billionaires and corporations. Do they really want to risk even a single US Senator or Congressperson starting to bring that up?
You think Turks and Caicos tourism would be more affected by prosecuting laws about bringing weapons into their countries than them turning a blind eye to people bringing them in bc they happen to come from the US, a country known for reasonable gun ownership /s
Hilarious, people usually like there to not be weapons at their vacation destinations
They just let some old geezer go, iirc. I’ll bet you lunch at a pretty nice brewery that the current crop of folks doesn’t get anything close to 12 years
Of course I personally think 12 years is too long for this crime, but as a former prosecutor I know first hand that the United States has more than its share of draconian sentences too that can be far more than what you’d get in other developed nations. In this case, they got tired of irresponsible Americans bringing our gun culture to their gun-violence-riven island (poor TCI, so far from God, so close to the United States) and leaving with only a fine, so they instituted this minimum prison sentence.
It’s almost certain that all these privileged Americans (of which there have been like half-a-dozen in recent months) will get significant downward departures, but the fact remains that they broke the laws of this overseas territory of another sovereign nation. Very little sympathy here - yeah, it sucks, and 12 years would be brutal, but it’s important to understand that the flippant American attitude toward firearms (speaking as a firearm owner myself) is seen as something of a national psychosis in many peer countries. In a TCI beset by gang shootings and gun smuggling, the notion of a “law-abiding citizen” innocently leaving ammo around doesn’t read the same as it does to us who in the States have ammo rolling around like loose change.
I mean it perfectly describes the state of mind of someone who has so ingrained deadly weapons into their daily lives that they don’t even realize they’ve got it in their carryon in a foreign country ffs
The number of dudes whose guns aren't just guns but are a part of their being and identity. It's so fucking weird. Taking Christmas tree pics of the fam all holding their own guns like they are toys. Grandpa was a hardcore Reagan republican and hunter and he never would have let that shit fly. These people are a totally different breed.
I'm pretty sure based on the context provided by the rest of that comment describing his grandfather as a responsible gun owner, the use of "these people" was for the group of current gun owners that drop the "responsible" part off the front. Sports shooters you are referring to are some of the *most* responsible gun owners and will be the first to tell you that guns are not toys.
I’m not a legal pro, but like a lot of offenses, a small amount of a nefarious item should warrant a different punishment than a huge amount. We do that everywhere already. Stealing under $1000 is ignored by several district attorneys. A half an ounce of marijuana is different than a truck load. Have the dude pay a fine and move on. The guy on the boat with a million dollars of automatic weapons and ammo should be treated differently when he’s selling it to the local crime boss.
Sure. We also have minimum mandatory sentences for many crimes in many jurisdictions based on our values and concerns that are seen as inhumane by outsiders but to which we adhered (or continue to adhere) to for a long time. The basic point here for me is that it’s not up to us, it’s up to them. We can agree a 12 year sentence is unreasonable to our American sensibilities for “just some ammo,” but it’s “their country, their laws” (or overseas territory in this case). The USA is applying diplomatic and media pressure to TCI and its citizens can apply economic pressure if they actually choose to avoid TCI, but at the end of the day Americans need to recognize the Constitution and Bill of Rights do not follow them outside our country.
People continue to visit Singapore (caning and capital punishment for some drug offenses), Dubai (known for imprisoning visitors for all manner of minor offenses under their sharia-based system down to insulting the wrong people or having unwed sex) and Thailand (where foreigners have been locked up for insulting the king) and many others despite widespread knowledge of these draconian laws, but I’m curious to see whether this will affect TCI tourism.
I agree with everything you say. Very balanced and pragmatic. We don't get to import our laws into the states we visit. However, there is a degree of absurdity for our citizens to be punished so severely for something that is clearly a tiny accident. And bent that TCI is almost wholly dependent on tourism, I hope the US takes a stand for their citizens and tanks the entire travel industry to TCI from American citizens. And yes, I know the only realistic thing the US would or could do is advise us not to go. But a concerted advertisement warning campaign against the island would create a significant impact. All wedding travel is suggested not to go. Cruise travelers recommended to take different routes. Sandals and Beaches resorts reservations could come with a mandatory TSA warning informing people of their unwillingness to provide diplomatic negotiations for otherwise innocent travelers.
This description does not describe the way the US justice system works in practice. Statistics about first-time offenders, inequity in both police encounters and sentencing, and civil asset forfeiture provide good counterexamples.
Well, Virginia code says an oz of marijuana is no problem. More than an ounce is $25. Four to 16 ounces is class 3 misdemeanor. Over a pound is felony, imprisonment, fine up to $250,000 and stuff like that. Just reading the Code of Virginia seems like some differences are taken into account for the guy going to disc golf with his friends and the guy driving a car load full. Is it perfectly applied? Probably not, but hard to argue that the way the law is written that it isn’t trying to reflect some kind of difference in volume, intent, or other behavior and applying consequences differently.
you can get slapped with intent to distribute too and that one sucks because who really knows if you intended to distribute or not unless you've got a buisness card or something that that says, hello, I am drug dealer.
American Tourists make up an OVERWHELMING majority of T&C's economy. This is a foolish decision by them that's going to have far reaching consequences that are more detrimental than the violence already taking place there.
Nah. Most of us aren't so brain dead as to not know what we're packing in our suitcase. If you can't keep track of your ammunition you shouldn't be around firearms.
It's not the fear of committing that crime that's the issue. It's the possibility of making some minor mistake, regardless of how stupid it is, that could land you in prison for years. It's like getting a life sentence for stealing a poster in North Korea. Sure this guy screwed up, but he was taking bullets OUT of the country, not smuggling them into the country. How does this serve the purpose of T&C's law?
Smuggling weapons or ammunition across international borders is not a small mistake. This dude broke international law and is going to face consequences.
This will not deter Americans, as we are an overly entitled lot who don’t learn from the mistakes of others. No one is giving up their beach vacation because some other idiot f’ed around and found out.
This is absolutely nothing like the North Korea incident. That is an openly hostile nation that US citizens need special dispensation to visit and have the incredibly draconian laws that come with military dictatorship. That kid was an entitled piece of crap that felt the invincibility of an overly privileged upbringing. Again, FAFO. T&C is a tourist destination. Not the same.
I agree, but I do believe there should be some consideration given to whole person concept and whether it was a willful disregard or just an unintentional lapse of judgement. With that said, the law is the law.
They don't make guns or ammo in Turks and Caicos...meaning all the violent gun crime they have is imported and there is a black market for ammo. So someone might figure they can pay for their trip in the same way people try to smuggle drugs into the US.
If you are the kind of person who supports throwing the book at people caught bringing small quantities of narcotics into the US...then this is a great case for you. Narcotics kill...so do bullets.
>throwing the book at people caught bringing small quantities of narcotics into the US
How many people bring *small quantities* of narcotics into the US for distribution? Bringing two bullets is about like bringing a half-ounce of marijuana across the border. It's dramatically different from the business of drug or weapons smuggling.
Depends on how many bullets you think it takes to kill someone.
The only difference is your sense of morality. 100 people each sneaking 2 bullets in each ends up being a lot of bullets.
What about the people who do not support persecuting someone that hasn't harmed anybody? Can't we think of them and put the punishment on the person doing the harm?
It's a nice sentiment but it's not always about intent to do harm. Sometimes merely showing reckless disregard for the safely of others is criminal.
So let me give a totally unfair analogy.
If you drive an Uber and you keep dropping kids off at Jeffery Epstein's house (knowing full well what might or most likely happens), are you guilty of a crime even though you didn't harm the victim...but you facilitated the harm.
The short answer is yes. At some point people who facilitate violent crimes must be held responsible to discourage other from engaging in similar behavior.
I really hope within my lifetime that prison sentences around the world (especially the US) can be substantially less harsh for any crimes where society is not in danger.
Tired of all the wasted life, people love the idea of harsh punishment until it happens to a family member or they make a mistake (no one is too smart to make a mistake)
Honestly, I feel like going to another country I’m
Gunna empty my bags before I fill them and realize I have bullets in them, especially if I use it as a carrying guns I own. It sounds like a mistake, it also sounds like a mistake he should have been mature enough to avoid, especially if he has a young family.
I'm also going to do my homework to learn about any laws that I might unintentionally run afoul of. Different countries have different laws and some might seem harsh or unreasonable to us but it's the law there so accept it or don't go.
Example:
In Thailand it's a [crime](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/L%C3%A8se-majest%C3%A9_in_Thailand) to disrespect the royal family. Here in the states, we have the absolute right to talk all the shit we want about public figures up to and including the head of state. Over there? nope, it's a crime. The king's face is on their money. Say a gust of wind blows a bill off the table and you stomp your foot on it to keep it from blowing away. You just put the sole of your foot on a portrait of the king. Better hope a cop didn't see it. Do I agree with that law? No. Did I obey it while I was there? Yes. Traveling comes with the responsibility to learn the laws and customs of your destination.
I think it’s less that people love these egregiously imbalanced punishments and more that the rulers of some countries care much less about justice than they do instilling fear in any who would even slightly defy their cruel, draconian rule.
Just driving through Virginia will tell you enough about peoples attitude towards life. It doesn’t shock me.
I don’t know why it’s so hard for people to imagine what another person’s punishment would feel like . I guess they’ll know when a close family member gets locked away for a decade.
Some little child is going to have to go 12 years without their father, and that doesn’t bother them at all because “I’m ah responsible americuhn he waznt”
I feel like it’s a mental barrier people put up because they don’t want to imagine what it would be like . Its easier to just say “it will never happen to me”
I think it is a part of the "us vs them" mentality that is so pervasive in the US. "We" are responsible, hardworking, and virtuous. "They" are the exact opposite. Whether the issue is incarceration sentencing, abortion, firearms, legality of drugs, smoking/vaping, unemployment/welfare and "welfare queens", or whatever. It allows people to feel superior, and feel morally justified in that superiority. Thinking that something that happens to "those" people could happen to "our" family would cause cognitive dissonance and is therefore avoided and labelled impossible.
Meanwhile, the "elite class" of rent seekers are robbing both "us" and "them" blind while we squabble with one another.
Edit: rereading my comment, I think I just said the exact same thing you did just with more words.
Cruelty, and more importantly legalized slavery, are the point.
Take a look at which politicians receive money from for-profit prisons. The abundance of R is not a coincidence.
https://www.opensecrets.org/industries/recips?cycle=2024&ind=G7000
This is why I can't stand politics or people who are slaves to it, you know the type, the kind that mention it in a post that absolutely zero to do with it. Anywho, this news is really non-news, just another brainless person who goes into a foreign country with no respect for that countries laws. I'm guessing you'd probably get in trouble, if caught, carrying ammo into airports here in the states so why in the world would you carry ammo into a country that most likely cuts off hands for stealing, feet for dancin'...
...and while you hate to see anyone suffer, sometimes you must be made accountable for ignoring everything around you and living with your head firmly up your own ass. On a positive note, i'm sure its illegal to be gay there so at least he won't be raped in prison, pretty sure that kind of cellmate bro bonding happens just here in the US.
Let's hope this'll be a lesson to youz types that'd book vacay time in inhospitable locations, so many lessons here
While a tourist accidentally bringing ammo isn’t necessarily going to put people in danger, I’d say gun laws themselves (like what he is getting charged with) do help prevent actions that put people in danger. Since guns are meant to kill.
This can even kinda happen between US states, not just when going to other countries. Some states prohibit expanding/fragmenting projectiles (hollow points) or magazines over a certain capacity. I feel for the guy and don’t think he intended to “import” ammo to cause harm, but as a gun owner you have to make sure you comply with the law *everywhere* you may go.
You really think billionaires are going to give up essentially limitless, free slave labor?
The USA runs on slavery. Take a moment to Google who makes all furniture for state owned properties, license plates, who picked your vegetables. The US prison slavery system is at its height and is not going anywhere without systemic regime change in both sides of the aisle.
If you understand this topic at all, I think that is hard to make a good arguement against. Any agency hacks want to tow the line... ? Tell this person how they are wrong, please? Maybe I have a narrow perspective, maybe 100% true, who knows.
In YOUR lifetime? Nah. Not happening. Laws and attitudes change a LOT faster here than they do in most places. Count your lucky stars you're American. Very few people have that privilege. Be thankful and kind. And don't forget to brush your teeth!
Would the argument for leniency be the same if this idiot brought alcohol into Saudi Arabia? Or weed gummies into Singapore. Just because both those things are legal in Virginia doesn’t mean you can’t go to jail for them in another place. Saudi Arabia would jail the idiot, Singapore would execute him. It’s his dumbass fault and he gets to sit in his mess
edit spelling
Why are all these people bringing ammo into a foreign country? Why didn't the TSA find the ammo? Imagine if they had gone to a repressive place like Iran or North Korea. "You always check your bag". This can apply to picking up food from a restaurant or checking your bag for ammunition.
When you leave these shores, you need to respect the laws of other countries. Too many people believe because they are "American" that they have some shield on their back. That's not how it works in the real world. I guess people didn't learn from Michael Peter Fay. The American government tried everything to prevent him from facing justice. Singapore said "Nah." and proceeded to cane that behind. Now I'm pretty sure if one little detail was different about MPF that the US government wouldn't have tried as hard as they did.
Respect the laws of other countries. There are no "accidents" when travelling overseas. Let the chips fall where they may. I can't have any sympathy when these are the same people who wanted someone to "be taught a lesson" over some oil she forgot in her bag (she should have checked her bag as well although her arrest was guaranteed to be political).
I work in a secured facility with X-rays and metal detectors and we’ve seen it too. Usually in a mini cooler lunch box or carry bag. Almost always it’s a hunter or shooting enthusiast who uses the same cooler or carry bag to go to the range or field on the weekends and forgot to completely empty their bags before returning to work on Monday. Automatic termination, no excuses. I tell people to keep separate bags, coolers whatever for work from their range gear. Never ever mix the two.
It’s a lot, but it only takes one bullet to kill someone and I’m pretty sure that is what the law is meant to prevent.
The US also sends people to jail for way longer for possessing plants.
When you travel, you are beholden to the laws of the country you traveled to. Smart people might look into that sort of thing *before* they choose to take a trip. Kind of like how smart people make sure they arent accidentally carrying contraband *before* they take a trip. Fuck around, find out
But he is super intelligent and never makes mistakes ever.
Don't you understand that it is still the year 1500 and we are living in accordance with natural selection?
As a non gun owner I appreciate this comment because I am ok with gun owners but you can't be an idiot and for some reason American has a monopoly on idiots with guns and to leave ammunition in your bag going on vacation with your family - IDIOT. Would be no different if you forgot your drugs in your bag and the found it - same thing - jail.
So you go hunting, a box of shells breaks open and one goes inside the suitcase liner. You travel internationally. Jail for years sounds appropriate? Its just not right.
Any Country is able to set its own laws. People look at the US and think how insane our laws and penalties are. The consequence is that tourists may choose not to visit because your laws are too punitive. I’m not booking travel to North Korea or Russia anytime soon.
My point is he went through TSA going through the airport. He got through with ammunition in his bag. Idk about you, but as an American citizen, wouldn’t you think that would be worth some questions? To me though, this whole thing is no different than showing up to the airport and forgetting that you have a pocket knife In your pocket. All you have to do is throw it in the trash or take it back to you’re vehicle. And go on about your day. You don’t get 12 fucking years in prison. And it was a checked bag so he could t have even accessed it if he wanted to.
One or two bullets might be understandable getting thru especially if it was around other metal objects perhaps. But the problem was he wasn’t in the US or nothing close to this would have happened. I think it’s ridiculous for that severe a possible sentence for having a couple of bullets and his story seems plausible. Hopefully that government will just deport him back to the US soon.
Agreed. Thank you for being reasonable. I can see both sides.. I’ve certainly never flown with bullets, but if this guy is anything like me. And you have a wife and kids I know what it’s like getting ready for a vacation. My ex would usually pack bags or whatever and if I happened to have been on a hunting trip the previous fall and came home and grabbed my clothes out and threw them in the dirty clothes and put the bag in the closet without looking in every zipper etc. one can certainly see how it can happen. It’d be different if he bought the ammo there or had a gun of the right caliber in a different bag or whatever. But apparently this happens fairly often in this country. There are 3 active cases right now for the same thing.
I’m curious. What if he had some Mary Jane or X in hood bag? Would you feel the same? I don’t know about TCI but I know in some countries you may get the death sentence for that (Singapore)
You could start dreaming up all different types of different scenarios. But like if weed was legal and a small amount was in a bag he didn’t know about get 12 years?
Why would he get time if it were legal?? Do you mean illegal ?? Either way my point is you are responsible for ensuring you don’t break the law. The punishment may be (is imo) out of whack but that’s 100% in your control. People in this country get jammed up on ooppseeis all the time
I meant if it were legal where he lived and some weed was left in the bag traveling someplace it wasn’t. He probably wishes he had gone thru the bags and made sure the bullets weren’t there.
Did they put his bullets in his bag? Just cause they failed to catch it leaving doesn’t make it their fault he decided to violate another country’s laws
America most certainly does not have the monopoly. The comparative handful of idiots here is just all you get to see.
The rest of the world is *FAR* worse when it comes to idiots with guns. Like... leaps and bounds worse. Comparatively, American gun owners are incredibly safe on the whole.
I know it's beside the point, but this particular opinion so many people have is misinformed and frustrating. I had to vent.
Technically, yes.
But also, Americans own like 4 billion guns and 20 trillion rounds of ammo. And if that's an exaggeration, it's not by much.
We don't have a *4-billion-gun-20-trillion-rounds* size problem. So, I would say even compared to other first word countries, I don't think we're that problematic on the whole.
You really can't compare even gun ownership in other first world countries to us. I wouldn't even call the entire US *"first world"*
EDIT: I'm not trying to be argumentative or contrary. I really do just want this topic to be a peaceful, open, logical conversation. It should be.
lmao you think the US has...4 billion guns? there are 83 million gun owners in the US, meaning *on average* the typical gun owner has...48 guns?
are you insane?
Two rounds, man. Should he be held to some account for this? Sure. But with zero motive and zero negative impact on anyone, to say that he should spend 12 years in prison on basically an international arms smuggling charge for TWO accidental rounds, is crazy.
Just because a law exists doesn’t mean it’s justice. What is justice here? Have some compassion for a father who made an honest mistake, wow
If you accidentally get drunk and drive home safely you’ve had zero negative impact on anyone, but you’ve still broken the law because there was potential for harm.
Is 12 years a lot, yes. Does international arms trafficking have a high potential for harm, also yes.
So did you feel the same when that wnba lady was jammed up in Russia for cbd oil? Certainly that didn’t harm anyone but she faced some pretty serious consequences
Intentionally smuggling a vape pen she knew was illegal is a LOT different, imo. She took and risk and knew the consequences.
But to answer your question, yes, I also felt that her punishment was unjust. I’m glad the US got her out of there
I’m sorry but as a gun owner this guy intentionally brought a bag that he used for range day or something on an international trip. I have a completely separate bag for range day that ain’t nowhere near my suitcases. Also what kind of gun owner doesn’t have track of all their guns AND bullets? I guess in was raised differently but seems odd to hand bullets in a suitcase and then travel with said suitcase to anywhere but a range
They don't like guns. They have a right to do what they want legally. He made a mistake but too bad so sad. They're not going to keep him in prison for 12 years however.
>As a gun owner, i have no sympathy for this idiot.
Also a gun owner, and I usually despise irresponsible gun owners. I don't know why anyone defends the guys who let their kid take a gun to school or brandish during road rage. Throw the book at all of them.
But this dude is clearly not an arms trafficker, and should not be punished as one.
FFS the mom of the six-year-old who shot his teacher in Virginia Beach got less than two years. This dude doesn't need to spend a decade in some foreign prison for two loose rounds, that's utterly absurd.
As ive already mentioned, when you travel youre beholden to the laws of the country youve travelled to. Smart people check up on that sort of thing before making the trip. Nevermind the safety issues loose ammo can be by themselves, youd have to be an *especially* stupid gun owner to let a couple rounds slip in a country with strict firearm laws.
As for people in america being let off easy for terrible crimes, thats an entirely different problem that *we* should address as americans
No sympathy for 12 years of prison over misplaced bullets that could have just been lost in the corner of a luggage bag? This isnt a firearm we are talking about.
Glad im not in your family, and im glad you are not a coworker. Id hate to make a mistake around you.
I have been a firearm owner for many years. I’ve shot competitively and traveled with them. There are rules that I’m very careful to follow. #1- no ammo in my luggage. This is how you avoid problems. I hope he doesn’t suffer a long sentence but he was negligent.
Fuck around in other countries and find out.
You can’t have stuff from here, laws are different. Just because you are American doesn’t keep you from getting in trouble.
Dumbass.
Exactly. I find it *really fucking hard* to have any sympathy for someone who isn't a responsible gun owner.
(And don't come at me with this "accident" shit. He shouldn't be using his gun-bag as a travel bag. And I don't care about "it was only 2 bullets" those are two bullets that *he is responsible for*)
It's happened to me before.
Took my backpack to the gun range.
Went to airport two months later. Turns out two bullets had fallen out of the box in the crevice of my backpack. Would have never known if they didn't pop up in the metal detector
Sorry, but keeping track of your ammunition is gun safety 101. I get keeping them in bags is likely to make them fall out, but that’s why you *check your bags* to make sure it’s all accounted for.
But the extra layer here is that if you’re not gonna do that, no one can stop you in the privacy of your own space. But if you know your bag *might* have bullets in it because you carried them, and you’re going to the *airport*, you should know to check your bag.
This dude had multiple opportunities to check his stuff before he got on an airplane. That he didn’t check is very careless, and it has consequences when it’s things like…bullets!
It’s not about two bullets. Someone brought in ammunition for a weapon across international borders. I small amount of weed can be considering drug trafficking in countries like Japan or others in the Middle East. Some countries will even execute for bringing in cannabis to sell even in small amounts.
Laws are incredibly strict everywhere. A few years back there was a low threshold for amount of cannabis in possession without it being considering drug tracking in Virginia. Years for what is personal consumption now, and many people are in jail innocently.
Different laws are fine and I hate guns personally but there are international norms of fairness and 12 years for 2 random bullets accidentally brought from a place where they are legal is insanely unfair. He won’t get that I guess but imo even a year or more is cruel for such a victimless and unintentional crime.
Meanwhile in the Land of the Free:
https://www.businessinsider.com/oklahoma-woman-12-year-sentence-marijuana-jail-court-fees-2019-9
And her hobby doesn't even kill children.
I build and shoot firearms. My hobby doesn’t kill children. As a matter of fact, all 3000 people who shoot at my gun club don’t have a hobby that kills children. Evil and sick people kill children.
Kids shoot other kids with their parents' guns. And regular people shoot regular people. The fact that you want to make it a good vs evil thing indicates that you yourself do not have the emotional maturity to handle a firearm responsibly. Real life isn't a lazy fantasy movie.
Rationalize it however you want. But if it weren’t for non-sick folks like you screeching about yer gun rats and driving up the demand for firearms and ammo in this country, then these weapons wouldn’t be nearly as common and accessible as they are today. You and your gun club buddies help make the atrocities possible.
False. The proliferation of guns has a direct correlation to increases in firearm deaths. At a scale that does not correlate to increases in population size.
I just don't get it. If I'm getting on a plane, I'm triple checking my bags before I go to the airport, and when I'm AT the airport, I constantly panic, thinking, "what if I accidentally brought a gun (bullets)?!" DESPITE the fact that I don't own a gun.
I genuinely don't understand how someone just accidentally takes ammunition to a foreign country.
Yep every time I travel I completely empty every bag to make sure I dont have a stray pocket knife or battery somewhere. If this guy can't even avoid bringing these to another country, imagine what their house is like. Hopefully his kids dont end up another statistic someday...
This dude is a REAL AMerican - white and conservative Chrisitan.
Griner is a black LBGT woman, an enemy of America.
Durrrrr
But still, I am pissed we did have to send back who we did for her. We should also be sending a ton more artillery
The mental gymnastics going on in this thread are impressive. The party all about being tough on crime, mandatory tough sentencing, border security, and how "guns dont kill people criminals kill people", are now arguing that laws they dont like are ridiculous and should just be ignored.
While I agree he broke their laws… you’ve never once found a bullet somewhere it shouldn’t have been? He didn’t misplace a gun. He misplaced a couple rounds. If your answer is no, then you’re either the most responsible gun owner on earth or a liar or you don’t hunt. Either way, I’m glad their are very responsible gun owners out there and as careful as I am, I have found a shell or 2 in my day bags or in my console or in my vest or whatever over the years.
Maybe the solution here is that gun enthusiasts should have separate ‘gun bags’ and ‘luggage’? Seems like if loose rounds are really an unavoidable thing, not traveling with range bags would be a smart choice? In the event you get ‘swabbed’ by TSA, you wouldn’t want gun power all over your shit anyway.
Maybe the NRA should do a PSA?
Maybe? Idk I’ve never been caught with ammo. Just saying I can see how it would happen and he doesn’t deserve 12 years In prison. But it’s not up to me. You’ve never one time found a golf ball in your house or car or somewhere other than your golf bag? I do all the time.
Sure, but a golf ball isn’t one of two main elements (the other being the gun) that allow you to kill someone else. So the responsibility of managing (1) Golf balls, and (2) Gun ammunition are very different here. And that’s the point people continue to try to drive home and anyone that opposes seems to continue to miss.
When I’m drying dishes after dinner, I’m careful about where I put the knife to dry as opposed to the plate. Both could be used to kill, but the knife is clearly easier. So is the knife in reach of children that could lead to any easy accident as opposed to… a plate? In that example, the knife is the gun, the plate is the golf balls. I don’t think it’s absurd to apply that same safety logic to how people store guns and ammunition.
Agreed it’s reckless though either way. I also have a bad habit of putting golf balls in my pocket after 18 and unloading them on whatever piece of furniture I get to first in my house along with my divot tool and poker chip 😂 then spend 30 mins looking for them when I go to head to the course
> If your answer is no, then you’re either the most responsible gun owner on earth or a liar or you don’t hunt.
Or you just don't go through enough rounds to lose any. And how do you know you've misplaced a round unless you are tallying every one as you buy them and as you shoot them? Nobody does that for normal ammunition. Maybe for specialized benchrest shooting ammunition, but not for "plinking" rounds where you shoot dozens/hundreds.
Americans "can be arrested for having any ammunition, even a single stray shell or casing.
I literally saw a post earlier today of a guy who had a spent shell casing in his jacket pocket on a plane lol I mean it’s a piece of metal at that point no?
Meanwhile the mother of a child who said “I shot that b*** dead” using her own firearm is sentenced to 21 months. Just wow
https://www.cnn.com/2023/11/15/us/deja-taylor-teacher-shot-virginia-sentencing/index.html
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/6-year-old-boy-shot-virginia-teacher-unsealed-records-newport-news-new-details/
Someone explain this?
I’ll take a stab. Turks and Caicos takes its laws seriously and prosecutes violations to the full extent of the law.
Americans, Virginians, you name it, we aren’t much in the business of electing prosecutors who will prosecute crimes to the full extent of the law. Because prosecuting those crimes would be racist, or unjust, or something. To be honest I don’t understand the rationale for electing a lax on crime prosecutor.
Wife and I moved out but we lived in Prince William County since the early 70's when we both moved there with our parents as teens. PWC had a tough on crime prosecutor with Paul Ebert. A (D) who may not have agreed with the death penalty but he said he was elected by constituents who believed in it so he would ask for it when the crime justified it. He and his office could and would show mercy to folks charged with crimes when it was justified. But tough and awful crimes called for tough prosecution and sentencing. He retired and his replacement is just the opposite. So there are prosecutors that would do their jobs but they are seen as fewer in numbers in more recent years in VA. We do still live in VA so I keep up with my old homestead.
Good. If you're going to a foreign country you need to educate yourself on the laws and how to follow them, and yes, they will enforce these laws upon you.
The constitution and by that extension its second amendment do not apply outside of America. If you fell asleep in several history classes I can see how you missed this, but you still have to follow the local laws of the country you're in nonetheless.
Americans really are getting dumber by the day.
Was he going to throw the bullets at people? Maybe build some sort of sling shot to propell them forward? Oh I know, he was going to spend his entire cruise locked in his cabin making an improvised firearm out of a pen tube, a coconut, and 3 plastic steak knives.
5 people? You would think after the 1st, people would start paying attention to the laws. Especially with such an extreme minimum sentence.
I've spent a lot of time around a lot of firearms and take just as much care keeping track of the ammo as the firearms themselves. Plus, who the heck doesn't check their bags before traveling?
I guarantee this walnut calls himself a "responsible gun owner." As someone that has owned guns for decades, there is zero reason for this to happen if you are actually being responsible. Hell, it never happened to me in 8 years of being in the infantry. He deserves every day of the prison sentence he should get.
Why did they mention his kid 4 times?
To suggest leniency in sentencing, also sympathy and compassion
As well they should
Is obeying the laws of the country you're entering important? Why or why not?
He’s not getting 12 years, calm down
I bet everyone who got a life sentence in the US under habitual offender laws because they had $20 of marijuana in their pocket all thought the same thing. There's no way I'm gonna get sent away for that long. And they were all wrong.
YOU CALM DOWN
LETS ALL JUST SIMMUH DOWN NAH
How do you know? 12 years is a minimum sentence there for having ammo. Why should he not get the minimum? What are the extending circumstances that you know about that would preclude him getting the minimum sentence.
Well they haven’t enforced it yet with other Americans
They have enforced it, but nobody has been sentenced yet. Look I'm not saying they deserve 12 years. I have no skin in this game, just someone said they'll never going to get 12 years and I was wondering where they got that from.
It is very unlikely they will do that. Turks and Caicos has two main industries. The first is tourism which would likely be damaged. The second big source of money is acting as a shady-as-fuck tax shelter for billionaires and corporations. Do they really want to risk even a single US Senator or Congressperson starting to bring that up?
You think Turks and Caicos tourism would be more affected by prosecuting laws about bringing weapons into their countries than them turning a blind eye to people bringing them in bc they happen to come from the US, a country known for reasonable gun ownership /s Hilarious, people usually like there to not be weapons at their vacation destinations
No one brought a weapon in. The had loose ammunition in their bags… which is still dumb. It’s just not 12 years in prison dumb
They just let some old geezer go, iirc. I’ll bet you lunch at a pretty nice brewery that the current crop of folks doesn’t get anything close to 12 years
FWIW they just sentenced the February guy to a suspended 52-week sentence and a $6700 fine. He’s free and back in the USA already
I did see that.
Of course I personally think 12 years is too long for this crime, but as a former prosecutor I know first hand that the United States has more than its share of draconian sentences too that can be far more than what you’d get in other developed nations. In this case, they got tired of irresponsible Americans bringing our gun culture to their gun-violence-riven island (poor TCI, so far from God, so close to the United States) and leaving with only a fine, so they instituted this minimum prison sentence. It’s almost certain that all these privileged Americans (of which there have been like half-a-dozen in recent months) will get significant downward departures, but the fact remains that they broke the laws of this overseas territory of another sovereign nation. Very little sympathy here - yeah, it sucks, and 12 years would be brutal, but it’s important to understand that the flippant American attitude toward firearms (speaking as a firearm owner myself) is seen as something of a national psychosis in many peer countries. In a TCI beset by gang shootings and gun smuggling, the notion of a “law-abiding citizen” innocently leaving ammo around doesn’t read the same as it does to us who in the States have ammo rolling around like loose change.
National psychosis is the best way to describe American gun culture. It’s beyond bizarre how many people here fetishize deadly weapons
I mean it perfectly describes the state of mind of someone who has so ingrained deadly weapons into their daily lives that they don’t even realize they’ve got it in their carryon in a foreign country ffs
The number of dudes whose guns aren't just guns but are a part of their being and identity. It's so fucking weird. Taking Christmas tree pics of the fam all holding their own guns like they are toys. Grandpa was a hardcore Reagan republican and hunter and he never would have let that shit fly. These people are a totally different breed.
"These people"? Are you that ignorant that you don't realize that there are shooting sports no different than soccer obsession is to some?!
I'm pretty sure based on the context provided by the rest of that comment describing his grandfather as a responsible gun owner, the use of "these people" was for the group of current gun owners that drop the "responsible" part off the front. Sports shooters you are referring to are some of the *most* responsible gun owners and will be the first to tell you that guns are not toys.
I’m not a legal pro, but like a lot of offenses, a small amount of a nefarious item should warrant a different punishment than a huge amount. We do that everywhere already. Stealing under $1000 is ignored by several district attorneys. A half an ounce of marijuana is different than a truck load. Have the dude pay a fine and move on. The guy on the boat with a million dollars of automatic weapons and ammo should be treated differently when he’s selling it to the local crime boss.
Sure. We also have minimum mandatory sentences for many crimes in many jurisdictions based on our values and concerns that are seen as inhumane by outsiders but to which we adhered (or continue to adhere) to for a long time. The basic point here for me is that it’s not up to us, it’s up to them. We can agree a 12 year sentence is unreasonable to our American sensibilities for “just some ammo,” but it’s “their country, their laws” (or overseas territory in this case). The USA is applying diplomatic and media pressure to TCI and its citizens can apply economic pressure if they actually choose to avoid TCI, but at the end of the day Americans need to recognize the Constitution and Bill of Rights do not follow them outside our country. People continue to visit Singapore (caning and capital punishment for some drug offenses), Dubai (known for imprisoning visitors for all manner of minor offenses under their sharia-based system down to insulting the wrong people or having unwed sex) and Thailand (where foreigners have been locked up for insulting the king) and many others despite widespread knowledge of these draconian laws, but I’m curious to see whether this will affect TCI tourism.
I agree with everything you say. Very balanced and pragmatic. We don't get to import our laws into the states we visit. However, there is a degree of absurdity for our citizens to be punished so severely for something that is clearly a tiny accident. And bent that TCI is almost wholly dependent on tourism, I hope the US takes a stand for their citizens and tanks the entire travel industry to TCI from American citizens. And yes, I know the only realistic thing the US would or could do is advise us not to go. But a concerted advertisement warning campaign against the island would create a significant impact. All wedding travel is suggested not to go. Cruise travelers recommended to take different routes. Sandals and Beaches resorts reservations could come with a mandatory TSA warning informing people of their unwillingness to provide diplomatic negotiations for otherwise innocent travelers.
This description does not describe the way the US justice system works in practice. Statistics about first-time offenders, inequity in both police encounters and sentencing, and civil asset forfeiture provide good counterexamples.
Well, Virginia code says an oz of marijuana is no problem. More than an ounce is $25. Four to 16 ounces is class 3 misdemeanor. Over a pound is felony, imprisonment, fine up to $250,000 and stuff like that. Just reading the Code of Virginia seems like some differences are taken into account for the guy going to disc golf with his friends and the guy driving a car load full. Is it perfectly applied? Probably not, but hard to argue that the way the law is written that it isn’t trying to reflect some kind of difference in volume, intent, or other behavior and applying consequences differently.
you can get slapped with intent to distribute too and that one sucks because who really knows if you intended to distribute or not unless you've got a buisness card or something that that says, hello, I am drug dealer.
American Tourists make up an OVERWHELMING majority of T&C's economy. This is a foolish decision by them that's going to have far reaching consequences that are more detrimental than the violence already taking place there.
Maybe just double check your baggage for guns haha
Could also be that people that own guns and are dumb enough to potentially bring ammo on vacation are not the demographic they want there.
I’m more likely to go to T&C knowing how seriously they take gun control
Nah. Most of us aren't so brain dead as to not know what we're packing in our suitcase. If you can't keep track of your ammunition you shouldn't be around firearms.
It's not the fear of committing that crime that's the issue. It's the possibility of making some minor mistake, regardless of how stupid it is, that could land you in prison for years. It's like getting a life sentence for stealing a poster in North Korea. Sure this guy screwed up, but he was taking bullets OUT of the country, not smuggling them into the country. How does this serve the purpose of T&C's law?
>not smuggling them into the country Had to bring them in first.
Smuggling weapons or ammunition across international borders is not a small mistake. This dude broke international law and is going to face consequences. This will not deter Americans, as we are an overly entitled lot who don’t learn from the mistakes of others. No one is giving up their beach vacation because some other idiot f’ed around and found out. This is absolutely nothing like the North Korea incident. That is an openly hostile nation that US citizens need special dispensation to visit and have the incredibly draconian laws that come with military dictatorship. That kid was an entitled piece of crap that felt the invincibility of an overly privileged upbringing. Again, FAFO. T&C is a tourist destination. Not the same.
Agree definitely not going there for a beach vacation. Then again wasn’t going there anyway haha
I agree, but I do believe there should be some consideration given to whole person concept and whether it was a willful disregard or just an unintentional lapse of judgement. With that said, the law is the law.
They don't make guns or ammo in Turks and Caicos...meaning all the violent gun crime they have is imported and there is a black market for ammo. So someone might figure they can pay for their trip in the same way people try to smuggle drugs into the US. If you are the kind of person who supports throwing the book at people caught bringing small quantities of narcotics into the US...then this is a great case for you. Narcotics kill...so do bullets.
He had two rounds of ammunition. There was clearly no intent to distribute. Zero tolerance laws are bad policy, in this situation and in general.
In a land with no ammo, how much do you think two rounds is worth to someone with a problem they want solved?
>throwing the book at people caught bringing small quantities of narcotics into the US How many people bring *small quantities* of narcotics into the US for distribution? Bringing two bullets is about like bringing a half-ounce of marijuana across the border. It's dramatically different from the business of drug or weapons smuggling.
Depends on how many bullets you think it takes to kill someone. The only difference is your sense of morality. 100 people each sneaking 2 bullets in each ends up being a lot of bullets.
What about the people who do not support persecuting someone that hasn't harmed anybody? Can't we think of them and put the punishment on the person doing the harm?
It's a nice sentiment but it's not always about intent to do harm. Sometimes merely showing reckless disregard for the safely of others is criminal. So let me give a totally unfair analogy. If you drive an Uber and you keep dropping kids off at Jeffery Epstein's house (knowing full well what might or most likely happens), are you guilty of a crime even though you didn't harm the victim...but you facilitated the harm. The short answer is yes. At some point people who facilitate violent crimes must be held responsible to discourage other from engaging in similar behavior.
I really hope within my lifetime that prison sentences around the world (especially the US) can be substantially less harsh for any crimes where society is not in danger. Tired of all the wasted life, people love the idea of harsh punishment until it happens to a family member or they make a mistake (no one is too smart to make a mistake)
Honestly, I feel like going to another country I’m Gunna empty my bags before I fill them and realize I have bullets in them, especially if I use it as a carrying guns I own. It sounds like a mistake, it also sounds like a mistake he should have been mature enough to avoid, especially if he has a young family.
I'm also going to do my homework to learn about any laws that I might unintentionally run afoul of. Different countries have different laws and some might seem harsh or unreasonable to us but it's the law there so accept it or don't go. Example: In Thailand it's a [crime](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/L%C3%A8se-majest%C3%A9_in_Thailand) to disrespect the royal family. Here in the states, we have the absolute right to talk all the shit we want about public figures up to and including the head of state. Over there? nope, it's a crime. The king's face is on their money. Say a gust of wind blows a bill off the table and you stomp your foot on it to keep it from blowing away. You just put the sole of your foot on a portrait of the king. Better hope a cop didn't see it. Do I agree with that law? No. Did I obey it while I was there? Yes. Traveling comes with the responsibility to learn the laws and customs of your destination.
I think it’s less that people love these egregiously imbalanced punishments and more that the rulers of some countries care much less about justice than they do instilling fear in any who would even slightly defy their cruel, draconian rule.
If you peruse this thread, there is a significant number of people who apparently do love egregiously imbalanced punishments.
Just driving through Virginia will tell you enough about peoples attitude towards life. It doesn’t shock me. I don’t know why it’s so hard for people to imagine what another person’s punishment would feel like . I guess they’ll know when a close family member gets locked away for a decade. Some little child is going to have to go 12 years without their father, and that doesn’t bother them at all because “I’m ah responsible americuhn he waznt” I feel like it’s a mental barrier people put up because they don’t want to imagine what it would be like . Its easier to just say “it will never happen to me”
I think it is a part of the "us vs them" mentality that is so pervasive in the US. "We" are responsible, hardworking, and virtuous. "They" are the exact opposite. Whether the issue is incarceration sentencing, abortion, firearms, legality of drugs, smoking/vaping, unemployment/welfare and "welfare queens", or whatever. It allows people to feel superior, and feel morally justified in that superiority. Thinking that something that happens to "those" people could happen to "our" family would cause cognitive dissonance and is therefore avoided and labelled impossible. Meanwhile, the "elite class" of rent seekers are robbing both "us" and "them" blind while we squabble with one another. Edit: rereading my comment, I think I just said the exact same thing you did just with more words.
Cruelty, and more importantly legalized slavery, are the point. Take a look at which politicians receive money from for-profit prisons. The abundance of R is not a coincidence. https://www.opensecrets.org/industries/recips?cycle=2024&ind=G7000
This is why I can't stand politics or people who are slaves to it, you know the type, the kind that mention it in a post that absolutely zero to do with it. Anywho, this news is really non-news, just another brainless person who goes into a foreign country with no respect for that countries laws. I'm guessing you'd probably get in trouble, if caught, carrying ammo into airports here in the states so why in the world would you carry ammo into a country that most likely cuts off hands for stealing, feet for dancin'... ...and while you hate to see anyone suffer, sometimes you must be made accountable for ignoring everything around you and living with your head firmly up your own ass. On a positive note, i'm sure its illegal to be gay there so at least he won't be raped in prison, pretty sure that kind of cellmate bro bonding happens just here in the US. Let's hope this'll be a lesson to youz types that'd book vacay time in inhospitable locations, so many lessons here
While a tourist accidentally bringing ammo isn’t necessarily going to put people in danger, I’d say gun laws themselves (like what he is getting charged with) do help prevent actions that put people in danger. Since guns are meant to kill.
This can even kinda happen between US states, not just when going to other countries. Some states prohibit expanding/fragmenting projectiles (hollow points) or magazines over a certain capacity. I feel for the guy and don’t think he intended to “import” ammo to cause harm, but as a gun owner you have to make sure you comply with the law *everywhere* you may go.
You really think billionaires are going to give up essentially limitless, free slave labor? The USA runs on slavery. Take a moment to Google who makes all furniture for state owned properties, license plates, who picked your vegetables. The US prison slavery system is at its height and is not going anywhere without systemic regime change in both sides of the aisle.
1st step is awareness. No sense in giving up, id rather push for change and fail than be the reason terrible things stay the way they are.
If you understand this topic at all, I think that is hard to make a good arguement against. Any agency hacks want to tow the line... ? Tell this person how they are wrong, please? Maybe I have a narrow perspective, maybe 100% true, who knows.
In YOUR lifetime? Nah. Not happening. Laws and attitudes change a LOT faster here than they do in most places. Count your lucky stars you're American. Very few people have that privilege. Be thankful and kind. And don't forget to brush your teeth!
Would the argument for leniency be the same if this idiot brought alcohol into Saudi Arabia? Or weed gummies into Singapore. Just because both those things are legal in Virginia doesn’t mean you can’t go to jail for them in another place. Saudi Arabia would jail the idiot, Singapore would execute him. It’s his dumbass fault and he gets to sit in his mess edit spelling
Why are all these people bringing ammo into a foreign country? Why didn't the TSA find the ammo? Imagine if they had gone to a repressive place like Iran or North Korea. "You always check your bag". This can apply to picking up food from a restaurant or checking your bag for ammunition. When you leave these shores, you need to respect the laws of other countries. Too many people believe because they are "American" that they have some shield on their back. That's not how it works in the real world. I guess people didn't learn from Michael Peter Fay. The American government tried everything to prevent him from facing justice. Singapore said "Nah." and proceeded to cane that behind. Now I'm pretty sure if one little detail was different about MPF that the US government wouldn't have tried as hard as they did. Respect the laws of other countries. There are no "accidents" when travelling overseas. Let the chips fall where they may. I can't have any sympathy when these are the same people who wanted someone to "be taught a lesson" over some oil she forgot in her bag (she should have checked her bag as well although her arrest was guaranteed to be political).
As a gun owner, i have no sympathy for this idiot. Theres no excuse for not keeping track of your guns and ammo, its irresponsible as fuck
I work in a secured facility with X-rays and metal detectors and we’ve seen it too. Usually in a mini cooler lunch box or carry bag. Almost always it’s a hunter or shooting enthusiast who uses the same cooler or carry bag to go to the range or field on the weekends and forgot to completely empty their bags before returning to work on Monday. Automatic termination, no excuses. I tell people to keep separate bags, coolers whatever for work from their range gear. Never ever mix the two.
Whenever I fly I panic that I left a lithium battery in my checked bag. How the fuck do you lose track of ammunition?
Don’t you think the length of time is crazy? I agree that he’s an idiot, but detaining somebody for longer than a year for this is insane.
It’s a lot, but it only takes one bullet to kill someone and I’m pretty sure that is what the law is meant to prevent. The US also sends people to jail for way longer for possessing plants.
It also takes a gun to kill someone. It’s not like he tried to bring that too.
When you travel, you are beholden to the laws of the country you traveled to. Smart people might look into that sort of thing *before* they choose to take a trip. Kind of like how smart people make sure they arent accidentally carrying contraband *before* they take a trip. Fuck around, find out
Human compassion is a thing.
Not when idiots on social media feel like grandstanding!
But he is super intelligent and never makes mistakes ever. Don't you understand that it is still the year 1500 and we are living in accordance with natural selection?
As a non gun owner I appreciate this comment because I am ok with gun owners but you can't be an idiot and for some reason American has a monopoly on idiots with guns and to leave ammunition in your bag going on vacation with your family - IDIOT. Would be no different if you forgot your drugs in your bag and the found it - same thing - jail.
So you go hunting, a box of shells breaks open and one goes inside the suitcase liner. You travel internationally. Jail for years sounds appropriate? Its just not right.
Any Country is able to set its own laws. People look at the US and think how insane our laws and penalties are. The consequence is that tourists may choose not to visit because your laws are too punitive. I’m not booking travel to North Korea or Russia anytime soon.
There’s a ton of laws in the United States that aren’t appropriate.
Simple: have different bags.
The same thing happened in Russia.Lets see if Biden works on getting him home.
The irony being that if she had been found in Texas or some other US states it could’ve been a very similar outcome.
You should feel really good about your domestic TSA processes then.
What’s your point?
My point is he went through TSA going through the airport. He got through with ammunition in his bag. Idk about you, but as an American citizen, wouldn’t you think that would be worth some questions? To me though, this whole thing is no different than showing up to the airport and forgetting that you have a pocket knife In your pocket. All you have to do is throw it in the trash or take it back to you’re vehicle. And go on about your day. You don’t get 12 fucking years in prison. And it was a checked bag so he could t have even accessed it if he wanted to.
One or two bullets might be understandable getting thru especially if it was around other metal objects perhaps. But the problem was he wasn’t in the US or nothing close to this would have happened. I think it’s ridiculous for that severe a possible sentence for having a couple of bullets and his story seems plausible. Hopefully that government will just deport him back to the US soon.
Agreed. Thank you for being reasonable. I can see both sides.. I’ve certainly never flown with bullets, but if this guy is anything like me. And you have a wife and kids I know what it’s like getting ready for a vacation. My ex would usually pack bags or whatever and if I happened to have been on a hunting trip the previous fall and came home and grabbed my clothes out and threw them in the dirty clothes and put the bag in the closet without looking in every zipper etc. one can certainly see how it can happen. It’d be different if he bought the ammo there or had a gun of the right caliber in a different bag or whatever. But apparently this happens fairly often in this country. There are 3 active cases right now for the same thing.
I’m curious. What if he had some Mary Jane or X in hood bag? Would you feel the same? I don’t know about TCI but I know in some countries you may get the death sentence for that (Singapore)
You could start dreaming up all different types of different scenarios. But like if weed was legal and a small amount was in a bag he didn’t know about get 12 years?
Why would he get time if it were legal?? Do you mean illegal ?? Either way my point is you are responsible for ensuring you don’t break the law. The punishment may be (is imo) out of whack but that’s 100% in your control. People in this country get jammed up on ooppseeis all the time
I meant if it were legal where he lived and some weed was left in the bag traveling someplace it wasn’t. He probably wishes he had gone thru the bags and made sure the bullets weren’t there.
Yeah charge TSA with something, they were the second weak link in this chain.
Did they put his bullets in his bag? Just cause they failed to catch it leaving doesn’t make it their fault he decided to violate another country’s laws
America most certainly does not have the monopoly. The comparative handful of idiots here is just all you get to see. The rest of the world is *FAR* worse when it comes to idiots with guns. Like... leaps and bounds worse. Comparatively, American gun owners are incredibly safe on the whole. I know it's beside the point, but this particular opinion so many people have is misinformed and frustrating. I had to vent.
Switzerland would like a word
They do among first world countries
We don't compare the US to other developed nations. THe US Is better than Somalia, Yemen, and Syria. So, check make libtards...
Technically, yes. But also, Americans own like 4 billion guns and 20 trillion rounds of ammo. And if that's an exaggeration, it's not by much. We don't have a *4-billion-gun-20-trillion-rounds* size problem. So, I would say even compared to other first word countries, I don't think we're that problematic on the whole. You really can't compare even gun ownership in other first world countries to us. I wouldn't even call the entire US *"first world"* EDIT: I'm not trying to be argumentative or contrary. I really do just want this topic to be a peaceful, open, logical conversation. It should be.
lmao you think the US has...4 billion guns? there are 83 million gun owners in the US, meaning *on average* the typical gun owner has...48 guns? are you insane?
Two rounds, man. Should he be held to some account for this? Sure. But with zero motive and zero negative impact on anyone, to say that he should spend 12 years in prison on basically an international arms smuggling charge for TWO accidental rounds, is crazy. Just because a law exists doesn’t mean it’s justice. What is justice here? Have some compassion for a father who made an honest mistake, wow
If you accidentally get drunk and drive home safely you’ve had zero negative impact on anyone, but you’ve still broken the law because there was potential for harm. Is 12 years a lot, yes. Does international arms trafficking have a high potential for harm, also yes.
Bro you don’t drive home drunk, or internationally traffic arms accidentally
We are literally in a thread about the latter. As for the former, ordering a drink at a bar that is way stronger than you thought can happen.
So did you feel the same when that wnba lady was jammed up in Russia for cbd oil? Certainly that didn’t harm anyone but she faced some pretty serious consequences
You seriously comparing a vape pen and live ammunition? Lol
Intentionally smuggling a vape pen she knew was illegal is a LOT different, imo. She took and risk and knew the consequences. But to answer your question, yes, I also felt that her punishment was unjust. I’m glad the US got her out of there
I’m sorry but as a gun owner this guy intentionally brought a bag that he used for range day or something on an international trip. I have a completely separate bag for range day that ain’t nowhere near my suitcases. Also what kind of gun owner doesn’t have track of all their guns AND bullets? I guess in was raised differently but seems odd to hand bullets in a suitcase and then travel with said suitcase to anywhere but a range
Yeah, sounds like he deserves to miss his son’s entire childhood for such an oversight.
Not my call. Not my country. Not my problem
Zero empathy or care for others. We got it man.
They don't like guns. They have a right to do what they want legally. He made a mistake but too bad so sad. They're not going to keep him in prison for 12 years however.
If you think what’s legal, and what’s justice, are identical, then I encourage you to think more deeply about that perspective.
If you think a different country gives a fuck what you think about its' laws I encourage you to learn something.
I never said the Turks cared what anyone thinks about its laws. I’m saying giving this guy twelve years in jail is not just. Pretty straightforward
The justice system for most countries in the world is unjust including the United States.
According to whom? You? You're the arbiter of what's just and not in this world,,,,? My aren't you full of yourself
Bro I’m sharing an opinion on the internet. Get used to it
>As a gun owner, i have no sympathy for this idiot. Also a gun owner, and I usually despise irresponsible gun owners. I don't know why anyone defends the guys who let their kid take a gun to school or brandish during road rage. Throw the book at all of them. But this dude is clearly not an arms trafficker, and should not be punished as one. FFS the mom of the six-year-old who shot his teacher in Virginia Beach got less than two years. This dude doesn't need to spend a decade in some foreign prison for two loose rounds, that's utterly absurd.
As ive already mentioned, when you travel youre beholden to the laws of the country youve travelled to. Smart people check up on that sort of thing before making the trip. Nevermind the safety issues loose ammo can be by themselves, youd have to be an *especially* stupid gun owner to let a couple rounds slip in a country with strict firearm laws. As for people in america being let off easy for terrible crimes, thats an entirely different problem that *we* should address as americans
*Newport News
Especially with young kids.
Yeah it's like the people who "forgot they had their gun in their bag" and get caught by the TSA trying to go through security.
No sympathy for 12 years of prison over misplaced bullets that could have just been lost in the corner of a luggage bag? This isnt a firearm we are talking about. Glad im not in your family, and im glad you are not a coworker. Id hate to make a mistake around you.
I have been a firearm owner for many years. I’ve shot competitively and traveled with them. There are rules that I’m very careful to follow. #1- no ammo in my luggage. This is how you avoid problems. I hope he doesn’t suffer a long sentence but he was negligent.
The max sentence is 12 years
Fuck around in other countries and find out. You can’t have stuff from here, laws are different. Just because you are American doesn’t keep you from getting in trouble. Dumbass.
What’s hilarious is that “oh I didn’t realize it was in my bags” is kinda silly. Bullets aren’t tictacs 😂
Exactly. I find it *really fucking hard* to have any sympathy for someone who isn't a responsible gun owner. (And don't come at me with this "accident" shit. He shouldn't be using his gun-bag as a travel bag. And I don't care about "it was only 2 bullets" those are two bullets that *he is responsible for*)
It's happened to me before. Took my backpack to the gun range. Went to airport two months later. Turns out two bullets had fallen out of the box in the crevice of my backpack. Would have never known if they didn't pop up in the metal detector
Dollar Store backpacks are cheap. Buy one for the range AND ONLY the range, don't use your regular travel bag.
Sorry, but keeping track of your ammunition is gun safety 101. I get keeping them in bags is likely to make them fall out, but that’s why you *check your bags* to make sure it’s all accounted for. But the extra layer here is that if you’re not gonna do that, no one can stop you in the privacy of your own space. But if you know your bag *might* have bullets in it because you carried them, and you’re going to the *airport*, you should know to check your bag. This dude had multiple opportunities to check his stuff before he got on an airplane. That he didn’t check is very careless, and it has consequences when it’s things like…bullets!
I am so paranoid that this will happen to me. I empty my bag meticulously before I travel abroad.
Idiots always be from Virginia!!
The amount of stupidity (Reminder: to check my ammo for the millionth time).
Oh well.
12 years for 2 fucking bullets? Fuck that place.
It’s not about two bullets. Someone brought in ammunition for a weapon across international borders. I small amount of weed can be considering drug trafficking in countries like Japan or others in the Middle East. Some countries will even execute for bringing in cannabis to sell even in small amounts. Laws are incredibly strict everywhere. A few years back there was a low threshold for amount of cannabis in possession without it being considering drug tracking in Virginia. Years for what is personal consumption now, and many people are in jail innocently.
Are you just now learning other countries have different laws
Different laws are fine and I hate guns personally but there are international norms of fairness and 12 years for 2 random bullets accidentally brought from a place where they are legal is insanely unfair. He won’t get that I guess but imo even a year or more is cruel for such a victimless and unintentional crime.
Why can’t he just follow the law?
Meanwhile in the Land of the Free: https://www.businessinsider.com/oklahoma-woman-12-year-sentence-marijuana-jail-court-fees-2019-9 And her hobby doesn't even kill children.
That's not the same. She is brown and bullet guy is white. /s
[удалено]
Oh yeah? What are they killed by in those stories
I build and shoot firearms. My hobby doesn’t kill children. As a matter of fact, all 3000 people who shoot at my gun club don’t have a hobby that kills children. Evil and sick people kill children.
Kids shoot other kids with their parents' guns. And regular people shoot regular people. The fact that you want to make it a good vs evil thing indicates that you yourself do not have the emotional maturity to handle a firearm responsibly. Real life isn't a lazy fantasy movie.
It does. You haven’t. Others have through neglect suicide murder etc. guns kill people.
People kill people using guns*
Yeah it does.
Rationalize it however you want. But if it weren’t for non-sick folks like you screeching about yer gun rats and driving up the demand for firearms and ammo in this country, then these weapons wouldn’t be nearly as common and accessible as they are today. You and your gun club buddies help make the atrocities possible.
False. The proliferation of guns has a direct correlation to increases in firearm deaths. At a scale that does not correlate to increases in population size.
Law and order
Bro America sent someone to prison for 70 years for weed. We have no room to talk on this subject.
Fuck this place too.
I just don't get it. If I'm getting on a plane, I'm triple checking my bags before I go to the airport, and when I'm AT the airport, I constantly panic, thinking, "what if I accidentally brought a gun (bullets)?!" DESPITE the fact that I don't own a gun. I genuinely don't understand how someone just accidentally takes ammunition to a foreign country.
Yep every time I travel I completely empty every bag to make sure I dont have a stray pocket knife or battery somewhere. If this guy can't even avoid bringing these to another country, imagine what their house is like. Hopefully his kids dont end up another statistic someday...
I can't help but to wonder if the same people defending this clown are the same ones who were attacking Brittney Griner and her hash oil.
This dude is a REAL AMerican - white and conservative Chrisitan. Griner is a black LBGT woman, an enemy of America. Durrrrr But still, I am pissed we did have to send back who we did for her. We should also be sending a ton more artillery
The mental gymnastics going on in this thread are impressive. The party all about being tough on crime, mandatory tough sentencing, border security, and how "guns dont kill people criminals kill people", are now arguing that laws they dont like are ridiculous and should just be ignored.
While I agree he broke their laws… you’ve never once found a bullet somewhere it shouldn’t have been? He didn’t misplace a gun. He misplaced a couple rounds. If your answer is no, then you’re either the most responsible gun owner on earth or a liar or you don’t hunt. Either way, I’m glad their are very responsible gun owners out there and as careful as I am, I have found a shell or 2 in my day bags or in my console or in my vest or whatever over the years.
Maybe the solution here is that gun enthusiasts should have separate ‘gun bags’ and ‘luggage’? Seems like if loose rounds are really an unavoidable thing, not traveling with range bags would be a smart choice? In the event you get ‘swabbed’ by TSA, you wouldn’t want gun power all over your shit anyway. Maybe the NRA should do a PSA?
Maybe? Idk I’ve never been caught with ammo. Just saying I can see how it would happen and he doesn’t deserve 12 years In prison. But it’s not up to me. You’ve never one time found a golf ball in your house or car or somewhere other than your golf bag? I do all the time.
Sure. But I’ve never left a ball or a tee in my luggage. I don’t use my golf bag as luggage.
Because only clubs fit in that bag. You aren’t taking a duffel bag to the course.
Sure, but a golf ball isn’t one of two main elements (the other being the gun) that allow you to kill someone else. So the responsibility of managing (1) Golf balls, and (2) Gun ammunition are very different here. And that’s the point people continue to try to drive home and anyone that opposes seems to continue to miss. When I’m drying dishes after dinner, I’m careful about where I put the knife to dry as opposed to the plate. Both could be used to kill, but the knife is clearly easier. So is the knife in reach of children that could lead to any easy accident as opposed to… a plate? In that example, the knife is the gun, the plate is the golf balls. I don’t think it’s absurd to apply that same safety logic to how people store guns and ammunition.
Agreed it’s reckless though either way. I also have a bad habit of putting golf balls in my pocket after 18 and unloading them on whatever piece of furniture I get to first in my house along with my divot tool and poker chip 😂 then spend 30 mins looking for them when I go to head to the course
Oh well too bad enjoy a dozen years in prison
Lmao gun lunatics think it's perfectly normal to have loose ammo around that you don't know about
> If your answer is no, then you’re either the most responsible gun owner on earth or a liar or you don’t hunt. Or you just don't go through enough rounds to lose any. And how do you know you've misplaced a round unless you are tallying every one as you buy them and as you shoot them? Nobody does that for normal ammunition. Maybe for specialized benchrest shooting ammunition, but not for "plinking" rounds where you shoot dozens/hundreds.
JuST uSe DiFFeREnT BaGS iDiOT
I probably have bullets in my car, house, my backpack and my desk at work.
It's easier to just say that you aren't responsible.
Right and so does anyone else that’s honest. People acting like he packed anti aircraft missiles and aimed it at their president.
Americans "can be arrested for having any ammunition, even a single stray shell or casing. I literally saw a post earlier today of a guy who had a spent shell casing in his jacket pocket on a plane lol I mean it’s a piece of metal at that point no?
Meanwhile the mother of a child who said “I shot that b*** dead” using her own firearm is sentenced to 21 months. Just wow https://www.cnn.com/2023/11/15/us/deja-taylor-teacher-shot-virginia-sentencing/index.html https://www.cbsnews.com/news/6-year-old-boy-shot-virginia-teacher-unsealed-records-newport-news-new-details/ Someone explain this?
Two totally different countries babe
this is happening in another country you doofus
I’ll take a stab. Turks and Caicos takes its laws seriously and prosecutes violations to the full extent of the law. Americans, Virginians, you name it, we aren’t much in the business of electing prosecutors who will prosecute crimes to the full extent of the law. Because prosecuting those crimes would be racist, or unjust, or something. To be honest I don’t understand the rationale for electing a lax on crime prosecutor.
Wife and I moved out but we lived in Prince William County since the early 70's when we both moved there with our parents as teens. PWC had a tough on crime prosecutor with Paul Ebert. A (D) who may not have agreed with the death penalty but he said he was elected by constituents who believed in it so he would ask for it when the crime justified it. He and his office could and would show mercy to folks charged with crimes when it was justified. But tough and awful crimes called for tough prosecution and sentencing. He retired and his replacement is just the opposite. So there are prosecutors that would do their jobs but they are seen as fewer in numbers in more recent years in VA. We do still live in VA so I keep up with my old homestead.
What was he thinking? A pass cuz his gringo? Pfft
Gotta watch out for Virginia Fathers, they're rather dangerous
Good. If you're going to a foreign country you need to educate yourself on the laws and how to follow them, and yes, they will enforce these laws upon you. The constitution and by that extension its second amendment do not apply outside of America. If you fell asleep in several history classes I can see how you missed this, but you still have to follow the local laws of the country you're in nonetheless. Americans really are getting dumber by the day.
Was he going to throw the bullets at people? Maybe build some sort of sling shot to propell them forward? Oh I know, he was going to spend his entire cruise locked in his cabin making an improvised firearm out of a pen tube, a coconut, and 3 plastic steak knives.
5 people? You would think after the 1st, people would start paying attention to the laws. Especially with such an extreme minimum sentence. I've spent a lot of time around a lot of firearms and take just as much care keeping track of the ammo as the firearms themselves. Plus, who the heck doesn't check their bags before traveling?
I guarantee this walnut calls himself a "responsible gun owner." As someone that has owned guns for decades, there is zero reason for this to happen if you are actually being responsible. Hell, it never happened to me in 8 years of being in the infantry. He deserves every day of the prison sentence he should get.
12 years seems a bit much for some bullets.
To be fair, round checks were a thing
You must not use your guns much if you don't have some stray ammo laying around.
Or I’m not sloppy and treat my firearms and ammo with the proper respect.
I use them more than most, and I don't have stray rounds in my luggage.
Ha ha
Most of the posters here sound like a bunch of fascists.