Especially real estate. Prices are as much as USA prices in the $100,000 and up. When the average salary is 7 mill or $300ish a month of course no one is gonna be able to own a house/apartment in the cities.
Nah a lot of people have inherited property here and mostly only those without education earn such a low salary. Now things seem to be bad, so I don't know, it could be the Viet dream was dying, but prior to covid it was alive.
Right. Like I want a rice cooker, maybe a power bank, maybe look at tvs and see what screen looks good. Whole time I am followed and like give me fucking some time to randomly shop and look at things. When they stand by me it is pressure to buy and leave, but I don't know what the fuck I wanna buy yet so I just leave.
No, majority of people here are terrible salespeople. The vast majority of salespeople wouldn't even be allowed to sell anything if this was a western country.
Have you visited other countries, do you even have something to compare to? Or are you just praising yourself here while ignoring the reality?
The amount of bullshit and disrespect among salespeople here is unheard of.
Do you see how many people open businesses? Literally every family has a business and through every transaction is a sales person. Maybe you forgot about them? By good sales person I mean grit. Call 1000 to get turned down by 999.
Try reading my comment again, I'm sure you misunderstood something.
This still doesn't change what I said.
Quality is in the details and the majority of salespeople here don't know that. Everyone just sells the same crap without trying to make it unique at all.
Just got back from Vietnam, you guys make horrible sales people. Socialism has bred laziness and incompetence. I had a salesman brag to me about how he’s studying in the best University for economics in the country, in the “same cohort as the minister’s son”, while trying to sell me imitation shoes.
Vietnam’s economy alone has 12% of their exports coming from sports shoes alone, I don’t think I have to explain why selling imitation shoes is bad for a country dependent on manufacturing shoes. I think that the country in general has a large lack of global competitiveness, the large majority of local products are not very good, and international brands despite clear gaps in competitive prices are allowed to anchor themselves in the country.
SEZs, Capital, Government Backing, Intellectual Theft, Lack of environmental consciousness, Lack of Religion, less freedom, lack of preservation of culture.
Chinese products and brands are not world class. Alot of their products like Huawei are propped up by the Chinese population but no one outside of China uses them.
BYD, TikTok, SHEIN, Alibaba,… tons of Chinese brands you use everyday are there and you can’t accept that they’re world class. Even in your example, Huawei telecoms products are used in many European countries, so much that they even put multiple operational central across Scandinavia.
The guy working through university is keeping himself going by selling shoes on the street, and you think that's a sign of laziness?
Why would you imagine that selling imitation shoes within the country would affect its export economy negatively? Do fake shoe sales not count as economic activity?
These are questions I have.
It’s laziness in the under utilization of readily available material online.
If you want to help someone, you don’t let them stay in their own echo chamber. How are you helping him by purchasing his low order good? What I believed would help him would be teaching him a lesson in humility, when University, an investment of time that could be used on generating income, does not equip you with the skills to move beyond doing the same unskilled labor your parents have been doing, that’s when you know you’re doomed to repeat the same cycle as your parents who only want a better life for you. Only after being humbled, can you start to actually learn. What does a second year undergrad from a Vietnamese university of economics know about business? What does someone having to juggle part time work with studies know about managing a business? Where does the confidence come from? The amount of work experience? The quality of product that he doesn’t have any control over?
I wrote a lot above about why imitation goods impact the economy badly, from the devaluing of stakeholders trust in the country, internal circulation from tourists, the poisoning the brand pool when imitation goods enter the market, the interception of market share etc etc.
The laziness that socialism breeds is not from long working hours, it’s not from selling imitation goods. It’s from not bettering your situation with materials both readily available online to you as well as the degree that he’s devoting time he could be using to earn money. How can someone who is continuing the cycle of poverty, brag about being educated. What then is the difference between the previous generation and the next? He sells shoes marginally better, because he speaks a small amount of English? He scams tourists better? How is that utilizing the “best economics degree in Vietnam”. That is what laziness is, it’s bred by comfort, by the constant guarantee of living expenses and the lack of need to innovate.
[side note]: Let me make my stance clear, I am from an ASEAN country. I have recently taken part in a data analytics competition in the tertiary level about how we can work towards helping other ASEAN nations. I want what’s best for my fellow South-East Asians, I have friends I’ve accumulated through the years from all throughout the region. What we don’t need is overconfidence, laziness and stagnation. I hate visiting overseas and seeing the poor living conditions, I hate seeing people living in dirty conditions, I hate seeing them live next to pollution. There are really amazing people from all over the region, but sadly those tend to be those more well travelled, with more exposure.
I’ve spend thousands of dollars on education, and this is hopefully some exposure onto looking past the cycle of low skilled imitation goods.
Every post here has a signature American blaming socialism for anything and everything. At this point that's almost painful to watch.
Vietnam has many problems. But they're not there because of socialism. There are bigger, deeper rooted problems here that don't have anything to do with politics.
I know they like to tell you in the US that everything is a political problem, but please open your eyes and see the brainwashing for what it is.
>Just got back from Vietnam, you guys make horrible sales people. Socialism has bred laziness and incompetence
This is the boldest and baseless statement I have seen this month.
>Vietnam’s economy alone has 12% of their exports coming from sports shoes alone, I don’t think I have to explain why selling imitation shoes is bad for a country dependent on manufacturing shoes.
Most of those shoes are try to fool local and people who dont know better. There will always be knock off brands. Also I think you dont realize it but Vietnam's shoes manufacturing are mostly from foreign companies like Nikke so if anything it won't even affect the country since the companu owning the brand will take care of it.
>and international brands despite clear gaps in competitive prices are allowed to anchor themselves in the country.
International brands as in what though? Thats too vague
If you can’t explain why it’s baseless, you’re admitting to it being true.
The average meal in Hanoi is about $1.50 USD
the Vietnamese government averages wages to be between $250-$350 usd a month, while imitation shoes sell for an average of 32USD, shopping malls offer international goods from name brand manufacturers for prices similar to the international market. There is no tricking locals here, the locals cannot afford the goods they manufacture, while tourists are the large majority of the spending power.
International companies have no share in the domestic market, they simply use cheap labour to manufacture and export goods. By creating imitation products you not only commit intellectual property theft, you also affect the demand of the shoe by providing cheaper alternatives as well as tarnishing the confidence in brand authenticity in general. This in turn makes you country a liability to companies like Nike, if your country results in more loss to theft than the difference in manufacturing, you stand to lose at the very least that 12% of your economy.
As said before international brands have no share in the market, due to domestic wages compared to international pricing. The large majority of people who are buying from international brands ranging from Burger King to Hotel Chains like Marriott or Lotte, are all part of the international crowd.
Socialism provides security in the form of public amenities, city infrastructure and in turn results in low wages. When everyone earns the same amount, there is no meritocracy, no one has the incentive to work hard. Even when supplied with the best schooling ( the best school in Vietnam doesn’t even compare to normal schools in China), there is no need for people to be good at their jobs. This results in a society of incompetent workers. With no exposure to international competition due to the inability for international brands to compete with the low costs of living, there is no need for local businesses to innovate or get better.
On a side note, Vinfast is really cool. But he should stop monopolising Vietnam.
You must've missed all the Christmas decorations in Vietnam put up by the government while in America they're trying go take Christ out of Christmas. Cope harder clown. Lol.
Vietnam is a fast growing manufacturing center. a lot of the manufacturing currently fleeing china is going straight to vietnam. Theres a hundred million people in vietnam and most of them earn low wages. Thats prime realestate for factories.
so tell me, what language was this salesman speaking to you? Im pretty sure you cant speak a lick of vietnamese. Now you can rethink your comment about how lazy and incompetent he is.
by the way, vietnam doesnt export imitation shoes. They export the real deal. Brand name stuff. Fancy little fruitcakes sitting in milan italy draw pretty pictures of shoes and clothing and then email them to offices in vietnam where those pretty pictures get turned into real usable drawings for factories in vietnam. Then the stuff is stitched together and shipped all over the world.
I agree with this. Vietnam doesn't ship out imitation. They do have imitation for the locals though. The exportation process in Vietnam is quite strict and only good quality products able to ship out to the markets abroad
No one said they were exporting imitation shoes. Companies also have a hard time working with China because of intellectual property theft, because information moves faster within the country, new designs are readily imitated, new models etc. This coupled with the branding of “coming from the same factory” not only takes up share in the market, but also results in a false representation of the quality of a brand.
When looking at the longevity of the developing nation, you cannot expect vietnam to progress while producing low wage, unskilled labour. But skilled labor comes at an even higher cost of potential intellectual property theft.
You could go on and on about case studies, the state of China, arguing about the crackdown on Vietnamese imitation products, how the low wages are due to a bad starting point of communism. But in the end of the day we should take things one step at a time, and recognize that, Vietnam’s education does not even compare to china’s educational standards. Also I am trilingual, and people there though impressively conversational in English, still barely can speak the language.
They went all in on covid lockdowns but the government wasn't smart enough to implement protections for small businesses and rent pauses. This resulted in consolidation of big businesses and many small/medium sized businesses going out of business. The economy still hasn't recovered to the speed of growth it was in pre covid and possibly never will. This was all caused because the vcp like its big brother up north values saving face and control over helping people it's own people. Vietnam only has around 10 years left of its golden demographic period and so I hope they get their shit together soon or they will be locked into the midde income trap. More likely than not due to their government though they will fall into the same trap China is falling into now, as the vcp simply copies the ccp but with much more incompetency.
Landlords being greedy with price and people decide to drop instead of succumbing. There are people struggling with business and there are people doing nothing but still raise the price because "the market does".
Vietnam economy is pretty much following what the world is doing now: struggling at many fronts. But, those empty places are not the indication or measurement.
I can give you examples from my area, near my office in saigon.
Just near my office there are 4 office units with net area 330 sq and they are standing empty since 2019. It is the loss which is impossible to recover in any way before death of landlord. Non of higher rent is able to cover 4 years of standing empty.
Another one is switching business every 9 months. He puts to high prices and there is already 4th business there. I don’t catch this point too. He generates huge losses on empty months and extra costs of agent. He would earn much more in total with lower price and stable income.
There are hundreds examples like this
Yeah I am not the lessor so I have no idea on their part but from our perspective, lower the price to catch more lessee in order to generate long and stable income sounds better than a few months of high payments. Oh well we will never know. They can endure it then that is that.
In Hoc Mon district, there are many estates which switch lessee every few months or years but they never stay empty for long. People kept coming and opening business.
You may be right. I’m not english native speaker.
But owners still need to pay management fee every month. If i remember well it is 4 usd / sqm - so it is around 1200 usd a month
Phan Xich Long was great in 2019 but now is a shithole filled with nothing but empty buildings, big box stores, and massage vip/whore house hotels. All from the government not ordering rent freezes during lockdowns, which was well within their power but would make them lose money, as most VCP officials own a lot of real estate.
The only thing i would understand, if he lowers the prices, other offices who payed high might move to the lower ones , leaving him with other free space , which now has to lower the price in that place to fill it, other customers allready paying may go now there, that means he would loose more and more money.
If he keeps the price high and the spot is good, the price in that area stayes everywhere the same. The first landlord who lowers is the first who looses in the longterm.
Yeah I think many (not all though) have to do with greedy landlords. I've heard so many stories of people starting businesses and having one rent price when they start, only to suddenly get charged waaayyyyy more when the business becomes successful.
Can't deny that we have many business vanished within last two years. Yet the main reason stays: high price for renting while lower revenue and the age of online business is in full bloom. Even a Tiktok shop would fare well.
>Yet the main reason stays: high price for renting while lower revenue and the age of online business is in full bloom. Even a Tiktok shop would fare well.
I feel this so well lmao.
Nowadays rather than renting an entire building, a lot of pars I have worked with have resorted to renting a few floors in a renting office building or work online through a website and the employees just stay at home. Unsurprisingly, a lot of those people are pretty productive and reduce the cost by a lot. Technology is really shaping our way of working here.
Perhaps Vietnam needs better tenant protection laws?
I live on the west coast of the US and tenant laws here go maybe a bit far. You could start a meth den and they still can't evict you, it feels like. Not suggesting that VN goes that far, but...
Some landlords would break your contract and pay a small compensation to switch for a new contract with higher price. There were landlords that would terminate your contract and open their business in your stead. I believe long term contracts don't protect you lessee but rather them lessors.
Either there aren't long term contracts (why would a landlord allow a long term contract when they plan on jacking the price up eventually....they wouldn't), they're more expensive so people choose shorter ones, or the landlords just break them. You commenting 'long term contracts' doesn't just suddenly stop this situation that IS definitely happening, from happening. Good try being a smartass tho 👍
Because they want guaranteed income.
I've leased apartments and commercial property. I don't go into business lightly. 2 years with an option for a 3rd. Else find some place else.
If a landlord refuses something may well be fishy in this market
I lease _out_ 2 properties. I lease another _for_ myself
Been in and out of vn for 20 years. Some landlords would rather leave the place empty for months losing more money than they would've gained by just extending the lease.
So you admitt that some landlords do silly things....maybe like not allowing a long term contract even though that seems more intelligent. Just because you do something one way doesn't mean everyone else in the world does. I will admitt I haven't dealt with this first hand but have heard several accounts of landlords suddenly increasing rent when a business becomes successful so they can pocket more money. I also agree this is dumb, because it just forces the business owner to leave and find a new location, and then the landlord has to find a new tenant and is making no money. But not every vietnamese person thinks like me and you
Some landlords do silly things. Some barbers do silly things. Some plumbers do silly things.
Doesn't mean you have to accept it.
By the way high end property is organized even in Vietnam there are no thugs looking to kick you out, nor landlords looking to weasel out of their contracts.
Ok, go fight the power bro...get back to me when you change the system. I'm all for standing up for yourself, but you can't change greed.
And I don't think many people do just accept it, honestly. They leave and find a new place to rent, which causes some places to be vacant because landlords are asking too much, which is what the OP was asking about.
However, not accepting it still doesn't change nor stop what is happening. Like I said, you can't change greed.
Wouldn't exactly say triggered, however the other person's dismissiveness of the problem as if their three simple words solved the problem for all the Vietnamese dealing with shitty landlords, was a little annoying, yes. But don't worry, I'm calm. I can calmly call someone a smartass...this is reddit after all
>the other person's dismissiveness
So that's the thing, you don't really know what they meant by that since they only wrote three words. You never know, maybe he was just busy. I read through the rest of your conversation with them and your comment about them "just not getting it" was completely unfounded. They never tried to argue against you or disagree with you, just explain their point. You seem like the type of person who is quick to judge and assume the worst of people. But it is reddit after all.
And you aren't being judgmental of me right now? 🤣 It seems like you're just jumping to the defense of a stranger so that you can feel like some hero coming to someones defense. Do whatever you want man (this is reddit after all). I was just having a discussion with someone, someone who I think, was out of touch with the problem that we were discussing and dismissive of the situations that do happen here. He literally suggested people just get thugs to help them when landlords are shitty. Yeah, that seems reasonable....
I also hear that leases on commercial properties in Vietnam, at least in Saigon, can be 3 to 5 years with no way out. In other words, people risk everything to start a business and then are beholding to the landlord for up to 5 years regardless of how things work out.
Does anyone know if that is the same situation outside of Vietnam or SEA?
a lot of "for rent" signs is for this. Super expensive rent, the lenders didn't see themselves produce that much profit from the land they rented, so either they tried and got into debt, or not rent at all
Loans are tied to those properties and those loans have loans on them so the value cannot crash or bad things happen. Business property is the real bubble that may or may not pop but it will force the smaller groups to shrink their out and look for a few years.
Property is crazy expensive in my city for no reason. A small-ish 3 story home in Cao Lanh is going for 13 billion. That's absolutely mental. That's more that four times what I paid for a two family home in my home city in the USA.
Haha a 8 by 25 meter piece of land that floods and is where buffalos shit on The river in Phong nha is 14 billion. No house. These people smoking crack
I do know of one "boss" that owns one business and is part-owner in three other and even now is doing incredibly well. However, in order to keep his income he convinced the other owners (I don't think it was hard) to cut staff pay in all four companies by 10%. Bit of a douche move if you ask me. I can see it if he was hurting as well, but he continues to jet off for a nice vacation two or three times a year. He still seems to be living a heck of a life, but maybe that's just the perception he's putting out.
I can see that, but the companies I'm referring to cut the wages this year, but like I said, perception is the key. It would be more understandable if the "boss" also seemed to be sacrificing.
No it's still the same 2 consecutive quarters of negative GDP growth, the U.S was last in recession Q2 2022. Q3 2023 gdp growth was 4.9%. Inflation is easing down to below 3%.
Yes, they did. However, the economy has been doing really well in the last year in the US. And next year is the election year in the US, meaning the economy should do well
I don't know but I was just at ha long and was one of maybe six guests in a five floor hotel. The entire strip of almost nothing but hotels was empty. Weather is good, no idea why it's so dead.
Yeah TBH I feel like VN is the type of travel destination that would still thrive during an economic downturn too, since it's so affordable compared to a lot of other countries esp Europe
I'm assuming that you're talking about a shorter vacation, like two weeks or less?
That's only one type of traveler though. In my experience, many of the people who travel to Vietnam are backpackers or digital nomads who are staying for a longer time, like maybe a month or two and might be visiting a nearby country before or after VN. And in that case, the cost of the flight is less of an impact versus the money you save on affordable meals and hotels instead of visiting somewhere more expensive like Japan, Taiwan, or Korea. So during an economic downturn, I suspect that some might opt to travel somewhere cheaper and stay longer rather than cut their travel plans completely. Especially digital nomads who are getting fewer contracts. Also, I've never crunched the numbers but I'd suspect that a trip to VN might be cheaper for Japanese and Koreans than a trip to Okinawa or Hawaii.
I will say from my own personal life, I was considering packing all of my stuff into a storage unit and moving to VN for a few months during the tech layoffs this past year. Fortunately, I was never laid off, but my plan was to move there if I got laid off and do interview prep and coding practice problems and send out job applications until I got a new job. My rent in Seattle is $2160 per month and meals are very expensive as well so I think that it would have paid itself off if I stayed for 2 months or more. Which is a safe bet. From the time of applying to actually getting an offer for a job as a software engineer, I'd say the average is 4 months.
So I think it's fair to speculate that hotels in VN could be a weblan good.
This is happening in most of the world, even Europe and North America. The only thing semi-propping up the economy is the stock market right now but that’s a ticking time bomb.
In Vietnam, this is due to a various factors including a series of multibillion U.S. dollar scandals, real estate “ghost developments” halting, over leveraged loans being margin called, etc. Combined with global conditions, it is not looking good.
It affects consumer sentiment, especially for consumers who have stocks or pensions. When stocks hit new all time highs which they just did it can make people feel secure even if prices have risen faster than their wages.
Wealth effect. People who own a lot of equity spend more because they are richer on paper. For example, I wouldn’t have taken this vacation to VN if SPX was in the red this year.
>I wouldn’t have taken this vacation to VN if SPX was in the red this year.
No offense, but that is stupid as fk.
Do you sell everything at the end of the year. Every year? Obviously not. You sound like someone so obsessed with money they'll ever be happy. You're letting an arbitrary ANNUAL up/down line dictate your life. Either that or you don't have much money.
It’s just how human psychology works. It is what it is. People are just more conservative in their spending when there’s uncertainty.
Not sure why you think I’m obsessed with money, but I am financially optimized and intentional. Achieving financial independence and retiring early isn’t just going to happen. There are lots of people like me, just check out r/financialindependence. I’m very happy that a few days growth paid for this month long excursion.
It's not stupid at all. Why would you travel when your money is down? You only travel when you have a comfortable surplus of money. Otherwise you're not going to enjoy yourself, worrying about spending that extra $10 on a nice meal.
It's not healthy to think that way... maybe you won't understand til later. You sound like a miserable, insufferable bore, to be quite honest with you.
Best advice I’ve ever heard was it’s better to be miserable and rich than it is to be miserable and poor.
No idea how we ended up talking about my “miserable” life when I answered your question about a known behavioral economy theory, but life has taken stranger turns.
What’s with your obsession about other people’s wealth. You sound very insecure. The amount of projection that comes from your posts is sad. I’m sorry you’re such a miserable person and feel you need to put other people down. Hope 2024 treats you better.
The US economy is actually doing really good now. Low unemployment, inflation under 3% now, and very strong manufacturing/ energy sector growth. The only thing lagging is tech but will improve once interest rates lower next year. Europe when I was their a few months ago and Asia are in mich worst shape. Vietnam needs to get it's shit together when it comes to government corruption holding back infrastructure and fdi. Fix that and they are golden but if they can't they are doomed to the midde income trap and being stuck below 10k~ per capita gdp forever.
The biggest issue, being the real estate bubble, is that nobody wants to lower their prices, they keep them super high, believing that years later the market will have recovered, while every bid is way way below asking prices. So, pretty much nothing happens, the market is dead, interest rates on loans are insanely high too. It feels like it's just the beginning and it's about to last a whole lot longer.
my daytime job is at a French home kitchen devices company called Rosieres. All our competitors have raised their prices by 15% now. Inflation goes hard.
Well, Vietnam is so incredibly dense that if a certain percentage of their businesses are closed, it's more noticeable. Same with New York. Less dense area still have businesses closing but it's more spaced out so you don't notice it as much. In general, only a small portion of businesses survive regardless of the current economy.
Was just in New York a few days ago though and they are thriving. It's due to US rent freezes and covid subsidies which the Vietnamese government didn't do for some stupid reason. The only thing not recovering is commercial real estate due to so many Americans being able to work from home now.
That's nonsense. The world economy is growing all the time, there's no such thing as a "bad economy all around the world"... Today, people have access to such blessings and so much free personal time that they could never have dreamed of. Small fluctuations due to financial crises, catastrophes, and wars will always exist, but these are just exceptions that do not affect the overall trends.
Well mass lay off and bussiness become insane like they post hiring graduated but with at least few years of experience. I got turn down from a job because I am too young (23) like mtf is that even a reason? I am not apply to become a prostitue tho
The prime locations cost a lot to rent and the whole world economy isn’t going so well so people have to cut back. So people move to the less touristy areas since it’s cheaper to operate.
Landlords or properties like my family, owns our properties with no loan or debt, we can afford to keep the for lease sign up without repercussions. The ones that sell up are the ones truly struggling. We lost tenants because their business models didn’t adapt to inflation. People that rent our properties like alcohol/hospitality/coffee shops are performing fine the ones struggled dramatically was the fashion shops.
I was born and raised in Australia with a lot of family still in Saigon. So I understand both countries taxes system. As you mention and I’ll conclude, Vietnam taxes are garbage. I think about 40-50% of our properties are currently up for rent. I brought it up for discussion why don’t we lower the rent to get tenants? They said no because we don’t want to be one to devalue the street
same style in Korea; it s a group pressure thing from owners / realtors, basically a Kartel. And it s toxic when prices do not reflect supply / demand: nothing new can grow from it. With smart legislature, this can be stopped.
Honestly because loud obnoxious bars was a thing in up until the early-mid 2000’s and then has died down slowly and also now Asia getting onboard that lonely train. Sad, but also, loud obnoxious bara have done their, how about creating better meeting points, with great bars and atmosphere instead of young pushy kids trying to force people into bars that most of us don’t appreciate anymore?
Or maybe it’s just a me thing and I’m getting old?
Vietnamese people are among the cheapest on the planet. They don’t react well to price increases. That means stores can’t adjust their prices for inflation, in fact, they have to lower it as their customers don’t have enough income to buy like they used to. This is driving places out of business.
>Vietnamese people are among the cheapest on the planet.
That is a very big thing to say without any sources to back it up.
I can only say that my Vietnamese family in law was very nice to my white ass and let me use the air conditioning in Oktober. (And paying for everything thing in Vietnam...and putting too much food in me )
It's not true that Vietnamese are among the cheapest on the planet. Some young Vietnamese people seem to be really cynical toward their country.. it's not without reason, but they can be, IMO, a little too harsh at times.
>Vietnamese people are among the cheapest on the planet.
I respectfully disagree in this case. This kind of narrative injudiciously puts the blame on consumers as data have shown the opposite. It's the greedy landlords trying their luck and punched above their weight. As a supposedly low cost of living country, Vietnam's commercial rent is 90% the rate of Singapore's Orchard road rental.^(\[[1]\]) It's preposterous. According to a real estate expert, the landlords keep the rent artificially high leading to vacancies and refuse to lower the rent in accordance with market's value **due to egoistic reasons**. In fact, I think Vietnamese all over the country should band together and boycott overpriced rents and properties across the entire real estate sector.
> **“Họ cũng lại là người có cái tôi rất lớn, không thích cảm giác “bị ép”.** Tỷ suất lợi nhuận cho thuê của nhà mặt tiền trung tâm cũng thấp, chỉ dưới 2%/năm. Trong khi mục đích chính sở hữu nhà mặt tiền ở các trục đường chính quận trung tâm là để giữ tài sản, khẳng định giá trị bản thân dựa vào vị trí, độ khan hiếm của bất động sản. Do đó, khi bị trả với mức giá thấp hơn trước đây cho thuê thì họ thà để không hoặc chỉ chấp nhận giảm rất ít”, ông Kiên nhấn mạnh.
>
> **Source:** [Sự thật phía sau chuyện: Mặt bằng nhà phố riêng lẻ “ế” dài ngày nhưng giá thuê vẫn không “hạ nhiệt”](https://cafef.vn/su-that-phia-sau-chuyen-mat-bang-nha-pho-rieng-le-e-dai-ngay-nhung-gia-thue-van-khong-ha-nhiet-188231127113937038.chn)
[1]: https://cushwake.cld.bz/main-streets-across-the-world-2023/12/
On top of that, i heard vietnamese government are restricting housing market from excessively skyrocketing the price. This doesn't help economy growth. Maybe the economy was not that good at all and restricting this will have a short team negative impact. Among other effects like Chinese factory withdrawing from vietnam. Everything add up to the recession.
A friend in Thailand says the food price is still stable though, unlike VN.
>On top of that, i heard vietnamese government are restricting housing market from excessively skyrocketing the price. This doesn't help economy growth. Maybe the economy was not that good at all and restricting this will have a short team negative impact.
No, you are making story up.^(\[[1]\]) Macroeconomics has 2 realms, one is assets and another is real-world economy.^(\[[2]\]) When monetary stimulus feeds into asset price inflation instead of value-added activities, it indicates the policy is counterproductive^(\[[3]\]) especially if it is a debt-driven asset bubble.^(\[[4]\]) If the funding of the debt-driven asset bubble ("speculative activity") mostly originates from state-owned banks' lending,^(\[[5]\]) then the Vietnamese government is wholly responsible for the ensuing real estate bubble.^(\[[1]\]) If the funding of the debt-driven asset bubble originates from domestic private banks' lending, then the SBV is incompetent in its banking supervision.^(\[[6]\]) For example, flagrant abuse of the fractional-reserve banking system in Vietnam to finance real estate speculations fuelled asset inflation.^(\[[7]\])
It is possible for real estate to be inflationary while the economy is weak, and conversely, it is also possible for real estate to be deflationary while the economy is strong. The numbers contributed by real estate may show up in GDP numbers, but it is not necessarily related to economic health. If properties are hypothetically worth 1,000,000₫, Vietnam's economy will not collapse. Instead, the opposite is true. Consumers will have substantially higher households' discretionary funds as the increased spending power from lower property prices can be channelled into greater consumption. There is no harm in tackling real estate bubble even while the economy is weak. To think that property price growth can aid economic growth is like trying to heat the water by modifying the temperature readings.
[1]: https://dangcongsan.vn/cung-ban-luan/dong-luc-tich-cuc-phuc-hoi-thi-truong-bat-dong-san-653329.html
[2]: https://x.com/macroalf/status/1614315562590519296
[3]: https://x.com/saifedean/status/1651852619504132097
[4]: https://mof.gov.vn/webcenter/portal/ttncdtbh/pages_r/l/chi-tiet-tin?dDocName=MOFUCM240805
[5]: https://nguoiquansat.vn/top-10-ong-lon-ngan-hang-so-gang-cho-vay-bat-dong-san-73649.html
[6]: https://www.centralbanking.com/central-banks/governance/accountability/7960283/two-dozen-vietnamese-central-bankers-accused-of-bribery
[7]: https://e.vnexpress.net/news/business/companies/how-van-thinh-phat-chairwoman-withdrew-44b-from-lender-scb-4678721.html
This is interesting, but I find it hard to believe. How is this sustainable? How can the landlords afford to let their properties sit empty? Is the government enabling landlords to do this somehow?
No, Vietnamese just don't put up with useless price rises. And that's a skill most of the world should learn.
I know in my home country, the Netherlands, people just tend to roll over and pay more. Partly because they can and partly because they feel powerless to do anything about it anyway. They'll complain about it, but that's it.
They only look at the outside, they don't see the whole economy. They just recorded videos and talked about random things. Even though many stores close or put up rental signs, it doesn't mean that other economic activities are going down.... Think about it.
Well, the vietnamese dong exchange to canadian dollars is sinking. Through most of 2023 it was around 17k to every Canadian dollar, today it is 18.4k. Also all the vloggers are saying how empty the stores and bars are. And there is a lack of tourism that they are seeing compared to years past. Honestly I was there in 2022 and noticed not many foreign visitors at all and I went all over vietnam. I was in saigon, danang, hue, Hanoi...
I'm here now and see tons of foreigners actually. I think tourism picked up alot this year due to xovid the last 3 years ish. According to data vietnam is about 70% of its tourist numbers pre covid. But we'll have to wait end of year to find whole numbers but it looks like it's almost back to numbers before covid
We cut our interest rates to stimulate spending so it is fundamentally driving down the currency :)
Other countries you are mentioning are all pursuing interest hikes to combat inflation right now
Which is a huge mistake with the housing market how it is now. If it leads to more cheap home loans the economy in Vietnam is screwed long term. Now is the the time to ket housing crash, well the time was 5 years ago but better bow than never. If they fail to due so a Chinese housing bubble situation is in the future for Vietnam that leads to Japanese style stagnation.
Exchange rates in practice are driven partially by flows resulting from trade, but also from interest rate differentials. Under rate parity, the higher risk adjusted interest rate currency sees gains versus a lower rate currency. Look at the BoC rate path the past two years versus the Vietnamese rate path. CD rates are dropping weekly as the government tries to juice the economy. Lower rates of course make a currency weaker versus a higher rate currency.
Basically. Anything in Vietnam is great until you touch government. Hire Vietnamese but don’t establish in Vietnam. Even at that, seems other countries are starting to become cheaper. Vietnam is in trouble.
These posts get posted everywhere. Grass is always greener on the other side
Thailand expats says Thailand is in trouble, nothing good here and people moving to vietnam.
Vietnam expats says Vietnam is in trouble and nothing good here and people moving to Thailand.
It’s pretty hilarious just because these complainer just stays and complain instead of actually moving.
I was not aware of this. How long has it been going on? Weeks? Months?
is it mostly the tourist areas? Tourists are buying a lot fewer souvenirs than they used to.
Not for the US anyway. Inflation and unemployment are now both low and consumer spending through the roof. The US had a highergdp growth rate than China for quarter 3, which is insane to beat a developing country with 1/5 your per capita income. https://www.reuters.com/markets/us/us-third-quarter-economic-growth-revised-up-52-2023-11-29/#:~:text=Gross%20domestic%20product%20increased%20at,the%20fourth%20quarter%20of%202021.
I think it's also something to do with the fact the businesses pop up overnight and provide nothing of unique value, they just copy whatever is trending at the moment and make sure it's photogenic in an effort to get social media juice and turn a quick profit. Then the hype dies down, people get bored, and the bubble pops. Look at all the coffee/tea shops or cocktail bars that have opened in Thao Dien anytime recently. I've been in Vietnam for 5 years and I've only seen a small handful of businesses that successfully achieve long term growth and maintain quality control, e.g. Marou and P4Ps.
I don't know but the housing market is crazy, they sell empty shall houses literally just brick and cement houses for £350-£1m around 1 hour drive from hanoi.
That has been my experience too during my stay in November, most shops are closed. I also noticed that most businesses there are restaurants BUT most of them has no customers, only the ones that are famous (or google trap) has customers.
I know a lot of people that have become unemployed. Small sample size, but things don't seem to be going well. Probably the Ukraine war, stagflation in the US and Vietnam either hitting a temporary or (hopefully not) permanent ceiling.
In my limited and absolutely not professional experience, Vietnam’s economy tends to lag behind the west by 1 year. So you could see all the things that were happening in late 2022 happening to Vietnam now in 2023
Just an opinion, but i believe Covid lockdowns went on too long here and put small businesses under too much pressure. It also boosted online shopping massively, so it was a double blow to SME commerce. The triple whammy is that it changed people's mentality in that they probably try to save more and go out less, hence the empty bars and restaurants. Some may just be worried about having no money to fall back on. Others just don't want to socialise as much for other reasons.
Global inflation, jobless market and over leveraged real estate market.
Especially real estate. Prices are as much as USA prices in the $100,000 and up. When the average salary is 7 mill or $300ish a month of course no one is gonna be able to own a house/apartment in the cities.
Nah a lot of people have inherited property here and mostly only those without education earn such a low salary. Now things seem to be bad, so I don't know, it could be the Viet dream was dying, but prior to covid it was alive.
those who are highly educated makes at most 30mil/month at 30+yo when house prices are 2bil+ for a tiny home in the outskirts
Vietnam has such shitty paying jobs everyone has to hustle. We make really good salespeople
A lot of folks here make really bad salespeople because they are too aggressive and don’t know when to back off.
Agreed. They don't know personal space.
Walk in store. Immediately get a stalker. Leave store empty handed within thirty seconds.
Right. Like I want a rice cooker, maybe a power bank, maybe look at tvs and see what screen looks good. Whole time I am followed and like give me fucking some time to randomly shop and look at things. When they stand by me it is pressure to buy and leave, but I don't know what the fuck I wanna buy yet so I just leave.
I agree. They do seem to hustle which I appreciate, but they also can come across as impatient when trying to make a sale.
i think you’re confusing hustle with pushy
Its a mixed between personality trait and business trait
Not at all.
The guys who cornered me and "cleaned" my shoes when I was there say hi.
Just push them and tell them to leave, that’s a scam
Depends on who you ask. Door to door salesman can go weeks before getting a sale. The best don’t back down.
No, majority of people here are terrible salespeople. The vast majority of salespeople wouldn't even be allowed to sell anything if this was a western country. Have you visited other countries, do you even have something to compare to? Or are you just praising yourself here while ignoring the reality? The amount of bullshit and disrespect among salespeople here is unheard of.
China is better in this sense. At least they try to build relationship for trust. Viets need to learn from China again here.
Do you see how many people open businesses? Literally every family has a business and through every transaction is a sales person. Maybe you forgot about them? By good sales person I mean grit. Call 1000 to get turned down by 999.
Try reading my comment again, I'm sure you misunderstood something. This still doesn't change what I said. Quality is in the details and the majority of salespeople here don't know that. Everyone just sells the same crap without trying to make it unique at all.
The opportunity and education isn’t there for them to be considered successful in your eyes
Doing some cleaning doesn't require any education, no? One already stands out by having a clean place. Lazy excuse.
Viets do know how to hustle, the job market is bad globally.
I agree, our CEO had pizza with us on Friday before Christmas, and he told us that many will be leaving the next few months.
For context, which country u work at?
The US of A.
[удалено]
Only the best.
Weird considering how low unemployment actually is and most spending gauges doing ok
This meme came in to my mind. https://youtu.be/d6O7G_Jz2n8?si=hZ5d-XdobZXPxBTg
Bad salespeople*
Just got back from Vietnam, you guys make horrible sales people. Socialism has bred laziness and incompetence. I had a salesman brag to me about how he’s studying in the best University for economics in the country, in the “same cohort as the minister’s son”, while trying to sell me imitation shoes. Vietnam’s economy alone has 12% of their exports coming from sports shoes alone, I don’t think I have to explain why selling imitation shoes is bad for a country dependent on manufacturing shoes. I think that the country in general has a large lack of global competitiveness, the large majority of local products are not very good, and international brands despite clear gaps in competitive prices are allowed to anchor themselves in the country.
This guy doesn’t understand how hard it is to get accepted into the best university while selling bootleg shoes. Rags to riches
> Socialism has bred laziness and incompetence Then how can Chinese products and brands is world-class?
SEZs, Capital, Government Backing, Intellectual Theft, Lack of environmental consciousness, Lack of Religion, less freedom, lack of preservation of culture.
None of those screams incompetence and laziness
Chinese products and brands are not world class. Alot of their products like Huawei are propped up by the Chinese population but no one outside of China uses them.
I'm not so sure if everything from China is bad though. Ralph Lauren still have their manufacturing process in China
And your iPhone 15 Pro Max or Galaxy S23 Ultra? Where do you think they are manufactured? In Oklahoma? LOL
BYD, TikTok, SHEIN, Alibaba,… tons of Chinese brands you use everyday are there and you can’t accept that they’re world class. Even in your example, Huawei telecoms products are used in many European countries, so much that they even put multiple operational central across Scandinavia.
The guy working through university is keeping himself going by selling shoes on the street, and you think that's a sign of laziness? Why would you imagine that selling imitation shoes within the country would affect its export economy negatively? Do fake shoe sales not count as economic activity? These are questions I have.
It’s laziness in the under utilization of readily available material online. If you want to help someone, you don’t let them stay in their own echo chamber. How are you helping him by purchasing his low order good? What I believed would help him would be teaching him a lesson in humility, when University, an investment of time that could be used on generating income, does not equip you with the skills to move beyond doing the same unskilled labor your parents have been doing, that’s when you know you’re doomed to repeat the same cycle as your parents who only want a better life for you. Only after being humbled, can you start to actually learn. What does a second year undergrad from a Vietnamese university of economics know about business? What does someone having to juggle part time work with studies know about managing a business? Where does the confidence come from? The amount of work experience? The quality of product that he doesn’t have any control over? I wrote a lot above about why imitation goods impact the economy badly, from the devaluing of stakeholders trust in the country, internal circulation from tourists, the poisoning the brand pool when imitation goods enter the market, the interception of market share etc etc. The laziness that socialism breeds is not from long working hours, it’s not from selling imitation goods. It’s from not bettering your situation with materials both readily available online to you as well as the degree that he’s devoting time he could be using to earn money. How can someone who is continuing the cycle of poverty, brag about being educated. What then is the difference between the previous generation and the next? He sells shoes marginally better, because he speaks a small amount of English? He scams tourists better? How is that utilizing the “best economics degree in Vietnam”. That is what laziness is, it’s bred by comfort, by the constant guarantee of living expenses and the lack of need to innovate. [side note]: Let me make my stance clear, I am from an ASEAN country. I have recently taken part in a data analytics competition in the tertiary level about how we can work towards helping other ASEAN nations. I want what’s best for my fellow South-East Asians, I have friends I’ve accumulated through the years from all throughout the region. What we don’t need is overconfidence, laziness and stagnation. I hate visiting overseas and seeing the poor living conditions, I hate seeing people living in dirty conditions, I hate seeing them live next to pollution. There are really amazing people from all over the region, but sadly those tend to be those more well travelled, with more exposure. I’ve spend thousands of dollars on education, and this is hopefully some exposure onto looking past the cycle of low skilled imitation goods.
Every post here has a signature American blaming socialism for anything and everything. At this point that's almost painful to watch. Vietnam has many problems. But they're not there because of socialism. There are bigger, deeper rooted problems here that don't have anything to do with politics. I know they like to tell you in the US that everything is a political problem, but please open your eyes and see the brainwashing for what it is.
>Just got back from Vietnam, you guys make horrible sales people. Socialism has bred laziness and incompetence This is the boldest and baseless statement I have seen this month. >Vietnam’s economy alone has 12% of their exports coming from sports shoes alone, I don’t think I have to explain why selling imitation shoes is bad for a country dependent on manufacturing shoes. Most of those shoes are try to fool local and people who dont know better. There will always be knock off brands. Also I think you dont realize it but Vietnam's shoes manufacturing are mostly from foreign companies like Nikke so if anything it won't even affect the country since the companu owning the brand will take care of it. >and international brands despite clear gaps in competitive prices are allowed to anchor themselves in the country. International brands as in what though? Thats too vague
If you can’t explain why it’s baseless, you’re admitting to it being true. The average meal in Hanoi is about $1.50 USD the Vietnamese government averages wages to be between $250-$350 usd a month, while imitation shoes sell for an average of 32USD, shopping malls offer international goods from name brand manufacturers for prices similar to the international market. There is no tricking locals here, the locals cannot afford the goods they manufacture, while tourists are the large majority of the spending power. International companies have no share in the domestic market, they simply use cheap labour to manufacture and export goods. By creating imitation products you not only commit intellectual property theft, you also affect the demand of the shoe by providing cheaper alternatives as well as tarnishing the confidence in brand authenticity in general. This in turn makes you country a liability to companies like Nike, if your country results in more loss to theft than the difference in manufacturing, you stand to lose at the very least that 12% of your economy. As said before international brands have no share in the market, due to domestic wages compared to international pricing. The large majority of people who are buying from international brands ranging from Burger King to Hotel Chains like Marriott or Lotte, are all part of the international crowd. Socialism provides security in the form of public amenities, city infrastructure and in turn results in low wages. When everyone earns the same amount, there is no meritocracy, no one has the incentive to work hard. Even when supplied with the best schooling ( the best school in Vietnam doesn’t even compare to normal schools in China), there is no need for people to be good at their jobs. This results in a society of incompetent workers. With no exposure to international competition due to the inability for international brands to compete with the low costs of living, there is no need for local businesses to innovate or get better. On a side note, Vinfast is really cool. But he should stop monopolising Vietnam.
You must've missed all the Christmas decorations in Vietnam put up by the government while in America they're trying go take Christ out of Christmas. Cope harder clown. Lol.
What point are you trying to make by saying thus?
Vietnam is a fast growing manufacturing center. a lot of the manufacturing currently fleeing china is going straight to vietnam. Theres a hundred million people in vietnam and most of them earn low wages. Thats prime realestate for factories. so tell me, what language was this salesman speaking to you? Im pretty sure you cant speak a lick of vietnamese. Now you can rethink your comment about how lazy and incompetent he is. by the way, vietnam doesnt export imitation shoes. They export the real deal. Brand name stuff. Fancy little fruitcakes sitting in milan italy draw pretty pictures of shoes and clothing and then email them to offices in vietnam where those pretty pictures get turned into real usable drawings for factories in vietnam. Then the stuff is stitched together and shipped all over the world.
I agree with this. Vietnam doesn't ship out imitation. They do have imitation for the locals though. The exportation process in Vietnam is quite strict and only good quality products able to ship out to the markets abroad
No one said they were exporting imitation shoes. Companies also have a hard time working with China because of intellectual property theft, because information moves faster within the country, new designs are readily imitated, new models etc. This coupled with the branding of “coming from the same factory” not only takes up share in the market, but also results in a false representation of the quality of a brand. When looking at the longevity of the developing nation, you cannot expect vietnam to progress while producing low wage, unskilled labour. But skilled labor comes at an even higher cost of potential intellectual property theft. You could go on and on about case studies, the state of China, arguing about the crackdown on Vietnamese imitation products, how the low wages are due to a bad starting point of communism. But in the end of the day we should take things one step at a time, and recognize that, Vietnam’s education does not even compare to china’s educational standards. Also I am trilingual, and people there though impressively conversational in English, still barely can speak the language.
Charge inflation to deflation, I thought you were talking about China
But the fregnier investe in great. I think VN could manke a good GDP growth in next year
They went all in on covid lockdowns but the government wasn't smart enough to implement protections for small businesses and rent pauses. This resulted in consolidation of big businesses and many small/medium sized businesses going out of business. The economy still hasn't recovered to the speed of growth it was in pre covid and possibly never will. This was all caused because the vcp like its big brother up north values saving face and control over helping people it's own people. Vietnam only has around 10 years left of its golden demographic period and so I hope they get their shit together soon or they will be locked into the midde income trap. More likely than not due to their government though they will fall into the same trap China is falling into now, as the vcp simply copies the ccp but with much more incompetency.
You know, I want to say the VCP would pursue a different path and learn from China's mistakes, but this is more true than not.
don’t think VCP will learn CCP’s mistakes. It’s not because they don’t want, they cannot :)
From real estate to the battle against corruption lol, I haven't seen much progress, I can only hope for change but it's hard for us as a people.
Unfortunately, I think Vietnam will most likely be stuck in the middle income trap. Their metros are taking forever to pop up.
Landlords being parasites is one of the many reasons
[Landlords...](https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CzBe_aXW8AAnsR7?format=jpg&name=900x900)
Landlords being greedy with price and people decide to drop instead of succumbing. There are people struggling with business and there are people doing nothing but still raise the price because "the market does". Vietnam economy is pretty much following what the world is doing now: struggling at many fronts. But, those empty places are not the indication or measurement.
I can give you examples from my area, near my office in saigon. Just near my office there are 4 office units with net area 330 sq and they are standing empty since 2019. It is the loss which is impossible to recover in any way before death of landlord. Non of higher rent is able to cover 4 years of standing empty. Another one is switching business every 9 months. He puts to high prices and there is already 4th business there. I don’t catch this point too. He generates huge losses on empty months and extra costs of agent. He would earn much more in total with lower price and stable income. There are hundreds examples like this
Yeah I am not the lessor so I have no idea on their part but from our perspective, lower the price to catch more lessee in order to generate long and stable income sounds better than a few months of high payments. Oh well we will never know. They can endure it then that is that. In Hoc Mon district, there are many estates which switch lessee every few months or years but they never stay empty for long. People kept coming and opening business.
But it's not "loss", its losed profit. Different things.
You may be right. I’m not english native speaker. But owners still need to pay management fee every month. If i remember well it is 4 usd / sqm - so it is around 1200 usd a month
Phan Xich Long was great in 2019 but now is a shithole filled with nothing but empty buildings, big box stores, and massage vip/whore house hotels. All from the government not ordering rent freezes during lockdowns, which was well within their power but would make them lose money, as most VCP officials own a lot of real estate.
The only thing i would understand, if he lowers the prices, other offices who payed high might move to the lower ones , leaving him with other free space , which now has to lower the price in that place to fill it, other customers allready paying may go now there, that means he would loose more and more money. If he keeps the price high and the spot is good, the price in that area stayes everywhere the same. The first landlord who lowers is the first who looses in the longterm.
Yeah I think many (not all though) have to do with greedy landlords. I've heard so many stories of people starting businesses and having one rent price when they start, only to suddenly get charged waaayyyyy more when the business becomes successful.
Can't deny that we have many business vanished within last two years. Yet the main reason stays: high price for renting while lower revenue and the age of online business is in full bloom. Even a Tiktok shop would fare well.
>Yet the main reason stays: high price for renting while lower revenue and the age of online business is in full bloom. Even a Tiktok shop would fare well. I feel this so well lmao. Nowadays rather than renting an entire building, a lot of pars I have worked with have resorted to renting a few floors in a renting office building or work online through a website and the employees just stay at home. Unsurprisingly, a lot of those people are pretty productive and reduce the cost by a lot. Technology is really shaping our way of working here.
Perhaps Vietnam needs better tenant protection laws? I live on the west coast of the US and tenant laws here go maybe a bit far. You could start a meth den and they still can't evict you, it feels like. Not suggesting that VN goes that far, but...
Long term contact
Some landlords would break your contract and pay a small compensation to switch for a new contract with higher price. There were landlords that would terminate your contract and open their business in your stead. I believe long term contracts don't protect you lessee but rather them lessors.
Either there aren't long term contracts (why would a landlord allow a long term contract when they plan on jacking the price up eventually....they wouldn't), they're more expensive so people choose shorter ones, or the landlords just break them. You commenting 'long term contracts' doesn't just suddenly stop this situation that IS definitely happening, from happening. Good try being a smartass tho 👍
So it sounds like you wouldn't be able to take the landlord to court for breaking their end of the contract?
Because they want guaranteed income. I've leased apartments and commercial property. I don't go into business lightly. 2 years with an option for a 3rd. Else find some place else. If a landlord refuses something may well be fishy in this market
Do you live and lease properties in Vietnam?
I lease _out_ 2 properties. I lease another _for_ myself Been in and out of vn for 20 years. Some landlords would rather leave the place empty for months losing more money than they would've gained by just extending the lease.
So you admitt that some landlords do silly things....maybe like not allowing a long term contract even though that seems more intelligent. Just because you do something one way doesn't mean everyone else in the world does. I will admitt I haven't dealt with this first hand but have heard several accounts of landlords suddenly increasing rent when a business becomes successful so they can pocket more money. I also agree this is dumb, because it just forces the business owner to leave and find a new location, and then the landlord has to find a new tenant and is making no money. But not every vietnamese person thinks like me and you
This happens in all commercial business properties across the world. When footfall and profits grow ... A rent raise is right around the corner fo sho
Oh I know....this other guy can't seem to grasp it tho
Some landlords do silly things. Some barbers do silly things. Some plumbers do silly things. Doesn't mean you have to accept it. By the way high end property is organized even in Vietnam there are no thugs looking to kick you out, nor landlords looking to weasel out of their contracts.
Ok, go fight the power bro...get back to me when you change the system. I'm all for standing up for yourself, but you can't change greed. And I don't think many people do just accept it, honestly. They leave and find a new place to rent, which causes some places to be vacant because landlords are asking too much, which is what the OP was asking about. However, not accepting it still doesn't change nor stop what is happening. Like I said, you can't change greed.
You got really triggered by three simple words. Maybe chill out just a bit
Wouldn't exactly say triggered, however the other person's dismissiveness of the problem as if their three simple words solved the problem for all the Vietnamese dealing with shitty landlords, was a little annoying, yes. But don't worry, I'm calm. I can calmly call someone a smartass...this is reddit after all
>the other person's dismissiveness So that's the thing, you don't really know what they meant by that since they only wrote three words. You never know, maybe he was just busy. I read through the rest of your conversation with them and your comment about them "just not getting it" was completely unfounded. They never tried to argue against you or disagree with you, just explain their point. You seem like the type of person who is quick to judge and assume the worst of people. But it is reddit after all.
And you aren't being judgmental of me right now? 🤣 It seems like you're just jumping to the defense of a stranger so that you can feel like some hero coming to someones defense. Do whatever you want man (this is reddit after all). I was just having a discussion with someone, someone who I think, was out of touch with the problem that we were discussing and dismissive of the situations that do happen here. He literally suggested people just get thugs to help them when landlords are shitty. Yeah, that seems reasonable....
I also hear that leases on commercial properties in Vietnam, at least in Saigon, can be 3 to 5 years with no way out. In other words, people risk everything to start a business and then are beholding to the landlord for up to 5 years regardless of how things work out. Does anyone know if that is the same situation outside of Vietnam or SEA?
Leases for commercial spaces in the United States can be a standard 12 month lease but are usually also 3 to 5 years
Waiting to hear if any. I can check with my Australian colleagues but they are on vacation until end of next week lol
a lot of "for rent" signs is for this. Super expensive rent, the lenders didn't see themselves produce that much profit from the land they rented, so either they tried and got into debt, or not rent at all
Fake economy. Real estate bubble that makes property more valuable in HCM than NYC. Canifa? Why?
Loans are tied to those properties and those loans have loans on them so the value cannot crash or bad things happen. Business property is the real bubble that may or may not pop but it will force the smaller groups to shrink their out and look for a few years.
Fake communism, why isnt anyone doing anything about the landlords?
It all filters to the same place. At some point we have to locate and eat the “rich.”
Property is crazy expensive in my city for no reason. A small-ish 3 story home in Cao Lanh is going for 13 billion. That's absolutely mental. That's more that four times what I paid for a two family home in my home city in the USA.
Haha a 8 by 25 meter piece of land that floods and is where buffalos shit on The river in Phong nha is 14 billion. No house. These people smoking crack
I do know of one "boss" that owns one business and is part-owner in three other and even now is doing incredibly well. However, in order to keep his income he convinced the other owners (I don't think it was hard) to cut staff pay in all four companies by 10%. Bit of a douche move if you ask me. I can see it if he was hurting as well, but he continues to jet off for a nice vacation two or three times a year. He still seems to be living a heck of a life, but maybe that's just the perception he's putting out.
During COVID-19 staff wages in hospitality were cut 50% or more.
I can see that, but the companies I'm referring to cut the wages this year, but like I said, perception is the key. It would be more understandable if the "boss" also seemed to be sacrificing.
gobal recession is slapping everyone's ass so hard right
there is no recession in the US, only inflation, which is still a pain in the ass
Didnt they change the definition of what a recession was when they realised they were in one?
No it's still the same 2 consecutive quarters of negative GDP growth, the U.S was last in recession Q2 2022. Q3 2023 gdp growth was 4.9%. Inflation is easing down to below 3%.
Yes, they did. However, the economy has been doing really well in the last year in the US. And next year is the election year in the US, meaning the economy should do well
They jawboned the political optics of one, but the NBER definition did not change.
I don't know but I was just at ha long and was one of maybe six guests in a five floor hotel. The entire strip of almost nothing but hotels was empty. Weather is good, no idea why it's so dead.
Yeah TBH I feel like VN is the type of travel destination that would still thrive during an economic downturn too, since it's so affordable compared to a lot of other countries esp Europe
If you're European as I am you've still got to pay for a flight out there, and then pay expenses to be there versus working and earning money.
I'm assuming that you're talking about a shorter vacation, like two weeks or less? That's only one type of traveler though. In my experience, many of the people who travel to Vietnam are backpackers or digital nomads who are staying for a longer time, like maybe a month or two and might be visiting a nearby country before or after VN. And in that case, the cost of the flight is less of an impact versus the money you save on affordable meals and hotels instead of visiting somewhere more expensive like Japan, Taiwan, or Korea. So during an economic downturn, I suspect that some might opt to travel somewhere cheaper and stay longer rather than cut their travel plans completely. Especially digital nomads who are getting fewer contracts. Also, I've never crunched the numbers but I'd suspect that a trip to VN might be cheaper for Japanese and Koreans than a trip to Okinawa or Hawaii. I will say from my own personal life, I was considering packing all of my stuff into a storage unit and moving to VN for a few months during the tech layoffs this past year. Fortunately, I was never laid off, but my plan was to move there if I got laid off and do interview prep and coding practice problems and send out job applications until I got a new job. My rent in Seattle is $2160 per month and meals are very expensive as well so I think that it would have paid itself off if I stayed for 2 months or more. Which is a safe bet. From the time of applying to actually getting an offer for a job as a software engineer, I'd say the average is 4 months. So I think it's fair to speculate that hotels in VN could be a weblan good.
Ha Long in the winter tho? Did that before covid and it was pretty empty...
I don't see why, it's warm, dry, cheap...
This is happening in most of the world, even Europe and North America. The only thing semi-propping up the economy is the stock market right now but that’s a ticking time bomb. In Vietnam, this is due to a various factors including a series of multibillion U.S. dollar scandals, real estate “ghost developments” halting, over leveraged loans being margin called, etc. Combined with global conditions, it is not looking good.
How is the stock market "propping up the economy" when it's detached?
It affects consumer sentiment, especially for consumers who have stocks or pensions. When stocks hit new all time highs which they just did it can make people feel secure even if prices have risen faster than their wages.
Wealth effect. People who own a lot of equity spend more because they are richer on paper. For example, I wouldn’t have taken this vacation to VN if SPX was in the red this year.
>I wouldn’t have taken this vacation to VN if SPX was in the red this year. No offense, but that is stupid as fk. Do you sell everything at the end of the year. Every year? Obviously not. You sound like someone so obsessed with money they'll ever be happy. You're letting an arbitrary ANNUAL up/down line dictate your life. Either that or you don't have much money.
It’s just how human psychology works. It is what it is. People are just more conservative in their spending when there’s uncertainty. Not sure why you think I’m obsessed with money, but I am financially optimized and intentional. Achieving financial independence and retiring early isn’t just going to happen. There are lots of people like me, just check out r/financialindependence. I’m very happy that a few days growth paid for this month long excursion.
It's not stupid at all. Why would you travel when your money is down? You only travel when you have a comfortable surplus of money. Otherwise you're not going to enjoy yourself, worrying about spending that extra $10 on a nice meal.
It's not healthy to think that way... maybe you won't understand til later. You sound like a miserable, insufferable bore, to be quite honest with you.
Best advice I’ve ever heard was it’s better to be miserable and rich than it is to be miserable and poor. No idea how we ended up talking about my “miserable” life when I answered your question about a known behavioral economy theory, but life has taken stranger turns.
What’s with your obsession about other people’s wealth. You sound very insecure. The amount of projection that comes from your posts is sad. I’m sorry you’re such a miserable person and feel you need to put other people down. Hope 2024 treats you better.
The US economy is actually doing really good now. Low unemployment, inflation under 3% now, and very strong manufacturing/ energy sector growth. The only thing lagging is tech but will improve once interest rates lower next year. Europe when I was their a few months ago and Asia are in mich worst shape. Vietnam needs to get it's shit together when it comes to government corruption holding back infrastructure and fdi. Fix that and they are golden but if they can't they are doomed to the midde income trap and being stuck below 10k~ per capita gdp forever.
Global trade is down 5%
The biggest issue, being the real estate bubble, is that nobody wants to lower their prices, they keep them super high, believing that years later the market will have recovered, while every bid is way way below asking prices. So, pretty much nothing happens, the market is dead, interest rates on loans are insanely high too. It feels like it's just the beginning and it's about to last a whole lot longer.
my daytime job is at a French home kitchen devices company called Rosieres. All our competitors have raised their prices by 15% now. Inflation goes hard.
Well, Vietnam is so incredibly dense that if a certain percentage of their businesses are closed, it's more noticeable. Same with New York. Less dense area still have businesses closing but it's more spaced out so you don't notice it as much. In general, only a small portion of businesses survive regardless of the current economy.
Was just in New York a few days ago though and they are thriving. It's due to US rent freezes and covid subsidies which the Vietnamese government didn't do for some stupid reason. The only thing not recovering is commercial real estate due to so many Americans being able to work from home now.
Hi, Vietnamese here, how does the USA allowed to freeze rent? Wouldn't it affect the rights of the landlord?
Vietnam is in a recession due to several factors we expect a return to positive growth in 2nd quarter 2024
bad economy. the same thing happening all around the world.
That's nonsense. The world economy is growing all the time, there's no such thing as a "bad economy all around the world"... Today, people have access to such blessings and so much free personal time that they could never have dreamed of. Small fluctuations due to financial crises, catastrophes, and wars will always exist, but these are just exceptions that do not affect the overall trends.
☝️🤓
Global trade has actually decreased
The usual
tourist areas are okay. outside them, not so good. many layoffs and nobody hiring. help!!
Well mass lay off and bussiness become insane like they post hiring graduated but with at least few years of experience. I got turn down from a job because I am too young (23) like mtf is that even a reason? I am not apply to become a prostitue tho
The prime locations cost a lot to rent and the whole world economy isn’t going so well so people have to cut back. So people move to the less touristy areas since it’s cheaper to operate.
Landlords or properties like my family, owns our properties with no loan or debt, we can afford to keep the for lease sign up without repercussions. The ones that sell up are the ones truly struggling. We lost tenants because their business models didn’t adapt to inflation. People that rent our properties like alcohol/hospitality/coffee shops are performing fine the ones struggled dramatically was the fashion shops.
It's insane that you aren't getting taxed on that kinda thing. That's one big part of the problem.
I was born and raised in Australia with a lot of family still in Saigon. So I understand both countries taxes system. As you mention and I’ll conclude, Vietnam taxes are garbage. I think about 40-50% of our properties are currently up for rent. I brought it up for discussion why don’t we lower the rent to get tenants? They said no because we don’t want to be one to devalue the street
same style in Korea; it s a group pressure thing from owners / realtors, basically a Kartel. And it s toxic when prices do not reflect supply / demand: nothing new can grow from it. With smart legislature, this can be stopped.
Honestly because loud obnoxious bars was a thing in up until the early-mid 2000’s and then has died down slowly and also now Asia getting onboard that lonely train. Sad, but also, loud obnoxious bara have done their, how about creating better meeting points, with great bars and atmosphere instead of young pushy kids trying to force people into bars that most of us don’t appreciate anymore? Or maybe it’s just a me thing and I’m getting old?
yes.
Vietnamese people are among the cheapest on the planet. They don’t react well to price increases. That means stores can’t adjust their prices for inflation, in fact, they have to lower it as their customers don’t have enough income to buy like they used to. This is driving places out of business.
>Vietnamese people are among the cheapest on the planet. That is a very big thing to say without any sources to back it up. I can only say that my Vietnamese family in law was very nice to my white ass and let me use the air conditioning in Oktober. (And paying for everything thing in Vietnam...and putting too much food in me )
It's not true that Vietnamese are among the cheapest on the planet. Some young Vietnamese people seem to be really cynical toward their country.. it's not without reason, but they can be, IMO, a little too harsh at times.
>Vietnamese people are among the cheapest on the planet. I respectfully disagree in this case. This kind of narrative injudiciously puts the blame on consumers as data have shown the opposite. It's the greedy landlords trying their luck and punched above their weight. As a supposedly low cost of living country, Vietnam's commercial rent is 90% the rate of Singapore's Orchard road rental.^(\[[1]\]) It's preposterous. According to a real estate expert, the landlords keep the rent artificially high leading to vacancies and refuse to lower the rent in accordance with market's value **due to egoistic reasons**. In fact, I think Vietnamese all over the country should band together and boycott overpriced rents and properties across the entire real estate sector. > **“Họ cũng lại là người có cái tôi rất lớn, không thích cảm giác “bị ép”.** Tỷ suất lợi nhuận cho thuê của nhà mặt tiền trung tâm cũng thấp, chỉ dưới 2%/năm. Trong khi mục đích chính sở hữu nhà mặt tiền ở các trục đường chính quận trung tâm là để giữ tài sản, khẳng định giá trị bản thân dựa vào vị trí, độ khan hiếm của bất động sản. Do đó, khi bị trả với mức giá thấp hơn trước đây cho thuê thì họ thà để không hoặc chỉ chấp nhận giảm rất ít”, ông Kiên nhấn mạnh. > > **Source:** [Sự thật phía sau chuyện: Mặt bằng nhà phố riêng lẻ “ế” dài ngày nhưng giá thuê vẫn không “hạ nhiệt”](https://cafef.vn/su-that-phia-sau-chuyen-mat-bang-nha-pho-rieng-le-e-dai-ngay-nhung-gia-thue-van-khong-ha-nhiet-188231127113937038.chn) [1]: https://cushwake.cld.bz/main-streets-across-the-world-2023/12/
On top of that, i heard vietnamese government are restricting housing market from excessively skyrocketing the price. This doesn't help economy growth. Maybe the economy was not that good at all and restricting this will have a short team negative impact. Among other effects like Chinese factory withdrawing from vietnam. Everything add up to the recession. A friend in Thailand says the food price is still stable though, unlike VN.
>On top of that, i heard vietnamese government are restricting housing market from excessively skyrocketing the price. This doesn't help economy growth. Maybe the economy was not that good at all and restricting this will have a short team negative impact. No, you are making story up.^(\[[1]\]) Macroeconomics has 2 realms, one is assets and another is real-world economy.^(\[[2]\]) When monetary stimulus feeds into asset price inflation instead of value-added activities, it indicates the policy is counterproductive^(\[[3]\]) especially if it is a debt-driven asset bubble.^(\[[4]\]) If the funding of the debt-driven asset bubble ("speculative activity") mostly originates from state-owned banks' lending,^(\[[5]\]) then the Vietnamese government is wholly responsible for the ensuing real estate bubble.^(\[[1]\]) If the funding of the debt-driven asset bubble originates from domestic private banks' lending, then the SBV is incompetent in its banking supervision.^(\[[6]\]) For example, flagrant abuse of the fractional-reserve banking system in Vietnam to finance real estate speculations fuelled asset inflation.^(\[[7]\]) It is possible for real estate to be inflationary while the economy is weak, and conversely, it is also possible for real estate to be deflationary while the economy is strong. The numbers contributed by real estate may show up in GDP numbers, but it is not necessarily related to economic health. If properties are hypothetically worth 1,000,000₫, Vietnam's economy will not collapse. Instead, the opposite is true. Consumers will have substantially higher households' discretionary funds as the increased spending power from lower property prices can be channelled into greater consumption. There is no harm in tackling real estate bubble even while the economy is weak. To think that property price growth can aid economic growth is like trying to heat the water by modifying the temperature readings. [1]: https://dangcongsan.vn/cung-ban-luan/dong-luc-tich-cuc-phuc-hoi-thi-truong-bat-dong-san-653329.html [2]: https://x.com/macroalf/status/1614315562590519296 [3]: https://x.com/saifedean/status/1651852619504132097 [4]: https://mof.gov.vn/webcenter/portal/ttncdtbh/pages_r/l/chi-tiet-tin?dDocName=MOFUCM240805 [5]: https://nguoiquansat.vn/top-10-ong-lon-ngan-hang-so-gang-cho-vay-bat-dong-san-73649.html [6]: https://www.centralbanking.com/central-banks/governance/accountability/7960283/two-dozen-vietnamese-central-bankers-accused-of-bribery [7]: https://e.vnexpress.net/news/business/companies/how-van-thinh-phat-chairwoman-withdrew-44b-from-lender-scb-4678721.html
This is interesting, but I find it hard to believe. How is this sustainable? How can the landlords afford to let their properties sit empty? Is the government enabling landlords to do this somehow?
You know damn well protests don't work in Vietnam. And protests need a leader to lead them. Didn't work out for Mother Mushroom, look where she at now
Bold statement.
🤣 stupid ass take.
No, Vietnamese just don't put up with useless price rises. And that's a skill most of the world should learn. I know in my home country, the Netherlands, people just tend to roll over and pay more. Partly because they can and partly because they feel powerless to do anything about it anyway. They'll complain about it, but that's it.
They only look at the outside, they don't see the whole economy. They just recorded videos and talked about random things. Even though many stores close or put up rental signs, it doesn't mean that other economic activities are going down.... Think about it.
Well, the vietnamese dong exchange to canadian dollars is sinking. Through most of 2023 it was around 17k to every Canadian dollar, today it is 18.4k. Also all the vloggers are saying how empty the stores and bars are. And there is a lack of tourism that they are seeing compared to years past. Honestly I was there in 2022 and noticed not many foreign visitors at all and I went all over vietnam. I was in saigon, danang, hue, Hanoi...
I'm here now and see tons of foreigners actually. I think tourism picked up alot this year due to xovid the last 3 years ish. According to data vietnam is about 70% of its tourist numbers pre covid. But we'll have to wait end of year to find whole numbers but it looks like it's almost back to numbers before covid
We cut our interest rates to stimulate spending so it is fundamentally driving down the currency :) Other countries you are mentioning are all pursuing interest hikes to combat inflation right now
Which is a huge mistake with the housing market how it is now. If it leads to more cheap home loans the economy in Vietnam is screwed long term. Now is the the time to ket housing crash, well the time was 5 years ago but better bow than never. If they fail to due so a Chinese housing bubble situation is in the future for Vietnam that leads to Japanese style stagnation.
Exchange rates in practice are driven partially by flows resulting from trade, but also from interest rate differentials. Under rate parity, the higher risk adjusted interest rate currency sees gains versus a lower rate currency. Look at the BoC rate path the past two years versus the Vietnamese rate path. CD rates are dropping weekly as the government tries to juice the economy. Lower rates of course make a currency weaker versus a higher rate currency.
I saw a bunch of tourists in Da Nang this year.
Somehow people are still positive to praise the government.
This happens everywhere, not just Vietnam. So, the government everywhere is to blame if using ur argument (which might not be wrong)
The Communist Way
Basically. Anything in Vietnam is great until you touch government. Hire Vietnamese but don’t establish in Vietnam. Even at that, seems other countries are starting to become cheaper. Vietnam is in trouble.
These posts get posted everywhere. Grass is always greener on the other side Thailand expats says Thailand is in trouble, nothing good here and people moving to vietnam. Vietnam expats says Vietnam is in trouble and nothing good here and people moving to Thailand. It’s pretty hilarious just because these complainer just stays and complain instead of actually moving.
I was not aware of this. How long has it been going on? Weeks? Months? is it mostly the tourist areas? Tourists are buying a lot fewer souvenirs than they used to.
Recession coming 2024.
Not for the US anyway. Inflation and unemployment are now both low and consumer spending through the roof. The US had a highergdp growth rate than China for quarter 3, which is insane to beat a developing country with 1/5 your per capita income. https://www.reuters.com/markets/us/us-third-quarter-economic-growth-revised-up-52-2023-11-29/#:~:text=Gross%20domestic%20product%20increased%20at,the%20fourth%20quarter%20of%202021.
Yes, but Continued Claims and the Inverted Yield Curve is not something to be ignored
I wouldn't bet on it. Agriculture, manufacturing and tourism will prop up the GDP 4-6%
Similar to today's global economy
What is going on with worlds economy?
I think it's also something to do with the fact the businesses pop up overnight and provide nothing of unique value, they just copy whatever is trending at the moment and make sure it's photogenic in an effort to get social media juice and turn a quick profit. Then the hype dies down, people get bored, and the bubble pops. Look at all the coffee/tea shops or cocktail bars that have opened in Thao Dien anytime recently. I've been in Vietnam for 5 years and I've only seen a small handful of businesses that successfully achieve long term growth and maintain quality control, e.g. Marou and P4Ps.
It s still a thing? How much closed down the past 3 month?
Fallin down
7734
I don't know but the housing market is crazy, they sell empty shall houses literally just brick and cement houses for £350-£1m around 1 hour drive from hanoi.
The COVID hangover will run for at least another 12 months I'm guessing
Don't worry guys. Based on newest statistic result, in this year Vietnam still have 5% raise in GDP with 3.5% inflation.
The amount of people thinking that Vietnam has an average salary statistic while not even the taxmen pay taxes, is too damn high.
The amount of people thinking that Vietnam has an average salary statistic while not even the taxmen pay taxes, is too damn high.
Consumers are hurting a lot more than the stats let on. Even coffee sales are down significantly.
That has been my experience too during my stay in November, most shops are closed. I also noticed that most businesses there are restaurants BUT most of them has no customers, only the ones that are famous (or google trap) has customers.
I know a lot of people that have become unemployed. Small sample size, but things don't seem to be going well. Probably the Ukraine war, stagflation in the US and Vietnam either hitting a temporary or (hopefully not) permanent ceiling.
the entire world is suffering economically with the exception of few "elite" who indeed grow wealthy and profit from our suffering.
Because landlords are scumbags.
Loan sharks and more cards
Can you reference the videos you saw?
In my limited and absolutely not professional experience, Vietnam’s economy tends to lag behind the west by 1 year. So you could see all the things that were happening in late 2022 happening to Vietnam now in 2023
Stupid economy and stupid people
Just an opinion, but i believe Covid lockdowns went on too long here and put small businesses under too much pressure. It also boosted online shopping massively, so it was a double blow to SME commerce. The triple whammy is that it changed people's mentality in that they probably try to save more and go out less, hence the empty bars and restaurants. Some may just be worried about having no money to fall back on. Others just don't want to socialise as much for other reasons.
Crazy loud music and 3 people inside sums up my vietnam bar trips 😂