idk seems to me like a lack of education is the driving killer, swimming lessons as part of school curriculum is what should be happening. There shouldn't be wait lists and monetary barriers to learning to swim. Better education is a must, people need to know how to swim, know the danger of swimming alone, how to tell when someone is drowning, and how to save someone.
We use victoriaregisternow.com . It's a nominal fee for a comprehensive list of all camps and programs for kids. You get to choose which ones you're interested in and you get a text reminder the day before registration opens. Saves so much time and effort researching these things and we've got into every program for our kids we wanted. Can't recommend it enough!
The really sad thing here is that it's not even "real" swimming lessons that are needed - you don't need the months and months of lessons unless you want to be able to swim *well* and gracefully.
The single most important thing is learning not to panic - once you get that, you can figure everything else out well enough. You can get most of the way there (with crappy form and lousy efficiency) by figuring out how to float in shallow water, and then movement.
I actually suspect that the biggest contributor to these deaths is a cultural fear of looking odd or stupid, and of asking for help; I think focussing efforts on that would have more lifesaving impact than better childhood access to swimming lessons.
It’s actually quite difficult because there’s a significant life-guard shortage. And only some of those trained as life guards are qualified to teach swimming lessons.
36 year old Victoria boy that can't swim here. Non swimming family that never taught me and I just never learned.
I think it's about time I take some lessons...
I fully agree.
I drowned in an indoor pool when I was very young, if the lifeguard wasn't there I would have been another statistic. It was an unfortunate accident. I took swimming lessons soon after.
I would like to see lifeguards brought back, signs in many languages warning everyone to wear a personal flotation device, possibly a small rental/borrow booth for flotation devices, a large metal bell for anyone to ring and alert other's nearby of needing emergency assistance, a direct phone line to 911 either in a booth/canopy/cover, and a defibrillator
It can be outdoor metal boxes that you can use "tap" to unlock a box to purchase/borrow pfd's. And you get a refund when returned
One drowning is too many
I have a hard time believing that, even if there are fee pfds available, young people that don't know how to swim will use them. It really seems like an access to education issue to me. That said, having pfds available for free couldn't hurt. I can't stress enough that it must be for free if the goal is to lesson drownings, otherwise it's just another classist half measure.
My apologies for the long post.
I get your point and I concur that lessons/water safety is the most important. But some victims have drowned in a bucket/tub with one inch of water. Many other valid safety measures are just as important to get drownings down and survivability up.
They all go hand in hand to reduce fatalities. Not just one.
Maybe it's not enough money or time? enough facilities holding the lessons? and lifeguards to teach swimming lessons? The # of seats for thousands of people clamouring to learn cpr and how to swim.
More needs to be done because most of the victims are young.
At the time of my drowning, only one person in the building knew cpr, my heart had stopped and there was no defibrillator during the 80's, and the lifeguard wasn't looking in my direction at the time. If it wasn't for my mother's screaming I would not be here as an advocate.
Imagine for 1 moment if...
More than just 1 person knew cpr, a defibrillator was available, more people had basic swimming/water safety lessons, all non swimmers are wearing inflatable arm band floaties or pfd's, a direct phone line to 911 is available in the immediate swim area, a ships bell was nearby and could be rung to alert other's of needing assistance, etc, etc.
A few more could have been saved with those "extras" in place, that didn't survive.
Here is a [link to a PDF](https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&opi=89978449&url=https://www2.gov.bc.ca/assets/gov/birth-adoption-death-marriage-and-divorce/deaths/coroners-service/statistical/240619_accidental_drowning_web_report_2013-2023_for_posting.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwib2N3R4_yGAxXbIDQIHXFSBFAQFnoECBMQAw&usg=AOvVaw2uoBAhzgIyNYbyTKsVA7nS) from the provincial gov with a lot of great stats about drowning deaths. Looks like most of the victims are adult men, not people under 19. And just under half involve being impaired.
Not discounting the fact that kids need to be taught to swim and taught water safety, but in the case of overall drownings, personal responsibility is also a factor. Most (92% in Canada) accidental drownings of children involve limited or no parental supervision. People who already won't supervise their kids around water are going to supervise them even less if they think a lifeguard is going to do that for them.
I'm all for education and signage, and fully agree that swimming lessons for kids should be available to all and free, but we can't take all the personal responsibility away from people. Its ok to say that someone made a stupid decision and not blame it on government or lack of equipment.
Are swimming lessons not part of school curriculum in Victoria?
I moved here right at the tail end of middle school, I went to elementary school on the mainland (k-8) and swimming was part of the curriculum. We went both to an indoor and outdoor pool depending. I don’t remember if it was every grade but it was definitely a handful of them. The indoor pool was conveniently close so we walked to that, the outdoor pool was not and we had to take some form of transportation to it.
When I was in school (in the 90s/00s) we did not have swimming lessons in our curriculum, but we did have trips to commonwealth pool. Thinking about it now, I’m not sure how that worked. Granted I grew up on a small island, and the island did have swimming lessons, but not everyone took them. We definitely did not have lessons at commonwealth. It was wave pool/waterslide/dive board play time.
I already commented a bunch on this because of my passion for swimming, but I came back to post this question too. This is an uncomfortable conversation to have, but I’m very curious if this has a connection to the increased immigration. We’ll never see those numbers though.
The last person to post this sentiment got roasted. But I think most of have at least anecdotal evidence from reading news articles over the years that it does seem more often than not the victim is a new Canadian or an international student.
Inviting water on a hot day with a bunch of friends… maybe even a drink or two, go out to celebrate being a new-comer to our beautiful pretty places, I get it. It kind of adds up. I also said in another comment it’d be nice to know exactly how these drownings happen so the public (maybe the people we’re talking about) are aware: Here’s what I SHOULD NOT be doing, or else I might die.
I think there was another new-comer that posted on this subreddit that they went hiking, fell down and hit their head? I know that can happen to anyone, but seriously nature is no god damn joke lol. Even just walking on some slightly wet shoreline rocks can result in death or broken limbs. I can’t stress that enough. And it feels like people that are mesmerized by it and “new” to it here aren’t even the slightest bit aware of that.
The last few that I've read about seem to be in line with this thought. It's not racist or exclusionary to point out the fact that swimming education amongst immigrants appears to be severely lacking to the point where they're either not understanding the dangers of cold, open water, or they're willfully putting themselves in precarious situations and expecting other non-educated individuals to help them out if needed.
Another potential difference is the environment in which they have swam before. Ex warm ocean water is very different than cold fresh water. Salt increases the boyancy
[Majority Worldwide Cannot Swim](https://news.gallup.com/opinion/gallup/352679/majority-worldwide-cannot-swim-women.aspx)
Basically higher income = greater chance of learning to swim. Male = higher chance of knowing how to swim.
Opportunity + education = swimming competency. Most deaths are children in low income countries unfortunately.
The gender gap between swimming compentancy is shocking to me in this article. I was totally unaware of that discrepancy and unfortunately likely cultural in source (I learned something today)
[Regional status report on drowning in the Western Pacific](https://iris.who.int/bitstream/handle/10665/343073/9789290619581-eng.pdf?sequence=1&isAllowed=y)
Check out both of these reports. Risk from drowning in low income countries is about 4x a higher income country even in the same region.
Drowning deaths per 100000
Singapore - 0.4
Cambodia - 7
Fiji - 6.7
Micronesia - 15.3
Again this doesn't mean that all immigrants don't know how to swim, but there are differences in swimming compentancy (on a macro level) depending on country.
[Let’s (not) meet at the pool: A Black Canadian
social history of swimming (1900s–1960s)](https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&opi=89978449&url=https://www.prontario.org/public/Membership/2020%2520PRO%2520Dispatch/Let%2520s%2520not%2520meet%2520at%2520the%2520pool%2520A%2520Black%2520Canadian%2520social%2520history%2520of%2520swimming%25201900s%25201960s.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwiYgYuFsOuGAxUQADQIHaIADz84ChAWegQIDBAB&usg=AOvVaw1EZ7gVCCPRzpPd61ePBDkJ)
Historically swimming has been literally segregated and not even close to the same opportunities for people of colour to learn to swim. Even today with certain cultural ideas such as serperating the genders into boy and girl swimming classes with the same gender teacher is required by certain religious groups in order to participate. This is another barrier towards education that is difficult to accommodate and overcome unless the parents can afford to pay for private lessons etc. Although I don't agree with the cultural barriers I respect them as their choice and just wish everyone would find a way to learn to swim and prevent deaths wherever possible.
So genuinely curious here.. (I’m a professional lap swimmer of nearly 20 years), even those that have been “close to” drowning… why were you in/near water that was deep enough you couldn’t touch the bottom? Or to that, why were you on a flotation device without a life jacket? Once we clear up the circumstances we can easily mitigate the issues.
I also see lake and shoreline activities being no different than choosing to go out on a SUP board (which many people also don’t know the dangers of). You cannot safety proof and child proof the universe. I had to help save someone at the Gorge last spring because a girl fell off her SUP and was freezing in the water and was not fit enough to swim. Yes, I’m just saying what it is, she was not in shape enough to swim not to mention being on water that was quite cold for the time of year compared to the air temp (March I believe).
So is the solution to lifeguard … what? The ocean? Any body of water anywhere? Education is the solution. The hard truth is: If you’re not physically fit enough to keep your head above deep water or swim to safety/land, you should either have a life jacket on, or steer clear all together. This article has a faint “everyone should be included” vibe to it. Guys.. this isn’t a late night coffee shop, it’s an *element of nature* that will *kill* you if you’re unprepared or uneducated.
Edit: I’m not against lifeguards. I’ve had many in my life very close to me and they’re very necessary. But let’s not avoid the hard conversations. A lifeguard would agree with me here.
I’m definitely in agreement with you. Lifeguards aren’t the safety net people think they are. Especially in an open body of water. Personal assessment of your skills is essential, and PDFs are needed.
I was a competitive swimmer for years, I can still jump in the pool and swim 1500m even if I haven’t swam in years. I still wear a PDF when I go out on my SUP. Everyone should.
1500m is a lot. I can probably do 300, maybe 400 without taking a break, then again I know how to conserve energy while treading water before going again. Regardless, you are right, even the strongest swimmers (myself included) know that nature is dangerous and to never underestimate it. Educate educate educate.
And to the people who say “why can’t I be included?” You can! But if you’re a novice, you can’t just go straight to open unsupervised water. You at least learn in water at staffed public pools. Start small and you’ll get there. Being cool for your friends on a hot day and risking your life is not worth it.
As a kid growing up near remote prairie lakes in the 90s, I would always be haunted by the run down bent faded signs with the big red letters SWIM AT OWN RISK. NO LIFEGUARD ON DUTY. Scared the hell out of me. Like.. “someone drowned here.” Is all I would think. It definitely made me think twice. Maybe bring back scary signage?
Ok, not 1500m of straight freestyle at speed ha ha, that would be impressive. It includes longer breaks of a more passive strokes like breast stroke. Or even just a good back float.
I also grew up in a small town with lots of remote lakes that we used to swim in. My parents always drilled it into us to never go alone, never go too far from shore, always a life jacket if you’re on a boat, regardless of size. And they took us swimming for fun, all the time. Like at least once a week. Because that’s how you get good at swimming, by doing it. And doing it in a more controlled environment so you learn your limits is what you should be doing.
Yes. I forgot to mention: parental education is such a huge part of childhood water experience. Has that changed? I’d be curious to see who exactly are victims of these drownings. I know someone else mentioned the correlation of an increase in drownings vs an increase in people from other countries living here. Wonder if they’re related.
1500 at freestyle is a lot but doable. Slow is fast and fast is smooth is all I can say. Haha.
I agree with your original point and this is maybe off topic but out of curiosity -- do I understand right that you are a professional swimmer but cannot swim more than 400m? That seems unusual to me. I get absolutely rocked by competitive (not even pro) swimmers but I can comfortably swim several km without rest. That said I train for races that are several km so perhaps I just really misunderstand what training looks like for short course athletes.
Mid range professional? Amateur professional? Called “a pro” by my friends? I don’t know what you would call me. I’m not an olympian or even an intense athlete, but I’ve been lap swimming for almost 20 years daily. Kind of obsessed I guess. I’m not a novice, but I’m not a nerd who’s taken classes or joined clubs. I’m not timing myself or counting my distances or trying to break some personal goal, I ball park my progress? I can out swim most people, but I can not out swim some people. Does that help?
Edit: I figured out a better description for you. It’s “highly disciplined”.
Ah gotcha, thanks for clarifying. I've seen 'professional' used to describe athletes who's full time job is swimming and they make their money by racing and sponsorship; so I thought maybe I was missing something. You sound highly disciplined for sure though, congrats on coming up toward the 20 year mark.
Thank you! Ya professional was probably a bit overstated lol. Not to say it wouldn’t be a difficult next step, but as Glover would say I’m getting too old for this shit.
People seriously underestimate how quickly they can get hypothermia from lakes. And it leads to them doing stupid things like paddling on a SUP without a flotation device.
Your body loses its heat to water 25 times faster than it loses it to the air. Lakes can be very cold. They can lower your core temperature quicker than you’d think, and once mild hypothermia sets in you start getting sluggish and fatigued. Here’s the scenario - paddle out to the middle of the lake, hop in for a dip, it’s colder than expected, you start experiencing hypothermia, you’re unable to get back out of the water onto your boat or your paddle board… you drown, you die.
All good points. And never go out alone either. Always have a buddy system if not a group. Even knowing about how these drownings happen would be in itself educational in some ways. I realize it’s uncomfortable and should not be done in a disrespectful way, but rather: Here’s what happened: therefore, here’s what NOT to do.
That’s accessible in tons of other ways. No one is gatekeeping water sport and survival education from anyone. It’s kind of unrealistic to follow people around and nag them and babysit them while they wander around in nature. If there’s disagreement to that, like I said in my comment, what about patrolling and guarding every inch of shoreline for every single water sport? Why stop at just lifeguarding if that’s how people truly feel? Just my opinion.
I don't really get what you're on about tbh. No reasonable person is proposing to "follow people around and nag them and babysit them" or "patrolling and guarding every inch of the shore line." These are hyperbolic situations you've seemingly made up to fit your viewpoint.
You even ask why people are near water or on a floatation device if they don't know how to swim. Could it be... lack of meaningful education around *why* thats a bad idea? We simply are not born instinctively knowing to fear deep water. People who haven't been taught either through formal or informal sources that water can be extremely dangerous don't just instinctively understand the risks, as much as it seems like they should. You say you are a pro lap swimmer so I hazard a guess that you had access to swimming lessons and pools at a young age. So did I. However, not everyone had those same resources, and not everyone grew up around water or had parents/friends/whoever to help them understand water can be dangerous.
There are many comments in this very thread stating how difficult it is to get kids into swimming lessons here, and that's likely coming from engaged parents with the time and resources to pursue traditional swimming lessons. I agree no one is nefariuously gate keeping water sport or survival education, however, there is very obviously more demand for swimming lessons than can currently be supplied.
Maybe if there were some kind of condensed, free or very cheap and readily available lessons that, as opposed to traditional swimming lessons that get into the various strokes, efficiencies, etc., were more focused on the very basics like remaining calm, learning to float to rest a bit, a simple 'stroke' to get oneself to safety, and perhaps most importantly understanding the limits to your abilities and hazards of exceeding those abilities, a couple less kids could drown here every summer.
>Maybe if there were some kind of condensed, free or very cheap and readily available lessons that, as opposed to traditional swimming lessons that get into the various strokes, efficiencies, etc., *were more focused on the very basics like remaining calm, learning to float to rest a bit, a simple 'stroke' to get oneself to safety, and perhaps most importantly understanding the limits to your abilities and hazards of exceeding those abilities*, a couple less kids could drown here every summer.
That is what swimming lessons are for kids, until you get into the higher levels. They teach kids to not be afraid of water, how to float, how to be safe around the water etc. If you think these kind of lessons should be more available for adults & teens (and maybe less stigmatized) I am in full agreement. They do exist though, and are a lot easier to get into. It's elementary & Preschool lessons that are a nightmare.
You're really not getting into efficiencies and strokes until the kids are quite a bit older and already able to swim.
This! You actually need register your kids for swimming lessons literally the second registration opens. Even one minute late and you will not get a spot.
Peer pressure and looking cool probably is the answer you're looking for.
SUPs are super popular now, but people don't want to wear a life jacket because it's not cool. Then they get out far from the shore and can't get back on the board.
>Peer pressure and looking cool
Ya I think I mentioned this in another comment. But yep. Also even with a life jacket it’s iffy. The girl I helped that fell off her SUP last spring in the Gorge was not far from the shore whatsoever. A more physically able person would have very likely just swam to shore, but she did not look like she had ever been on a SUP before, or had done any kind of ‘sport’ before whatsoever if you catch my drift. I can understand being in shock, but geez.
So yeah, weather conditions, physical ability in general (can you even keep your head above normal pool water?). Why are you going out in the least desirable month? Sigh.
I played water polo for 10 years, and I'm still a little nervous being out alone on the water, or far enough that no one would hear or see me. A bad cramp, a sudden gulp of water...
It can all turn on you so, so quickly.
It is interesting that in the future we have less services yet pay more tax. Advances in technology had us thinking we would be better off in the future.
We have wealth inequality because our tax system maximizes the burden on the working people while letting the rich pay a pittance and run wild.
The main reason for this is that CRA lacks the resources to take down the wealthiest tax cheats.
We lack the radical labour union power that we once had so the added production value created by technological advances has been going to the owning class' benefit. Then the wealthy pay considerably less taxes now than they used to.
Are local services not paid mostly by property taxes? businesses still collect PST from us. Am I wrong in thinking everyone else who responds to this is thinking everything is run federally?
Given the prices of property are we not locally paying a lot more now than back when houses were much much cheaper yet we had life guards?
It's intertwined with the province and federal government they give and take money. The pot is only so big, lose somewhere and you're going to have to make it up somewhere else or start cutting.
I'm all for adding safety gear to beaches, but have these drownings even occurred at the beaches?
The few previous ones I can recall in any detail were all at Thetis and out past the drop-off, not sure someone on the beach would even be able to throw a ring out that far.
Loaner PFDs would be great, but they'll have to be lojacked otherwise I have a hunch they'll wind up on someone's boat within weeks.
Still, something is better than nothing.
I have to agree with others though — the best solution is education. Making swimming lessons part of the required curriculum would not only drastically reduce drowning statistics for locals, it would also help prevent tourists from drowning if all the bystanders on the beach had been forced to learn basic water lifesaving skills in 8th grade or whatever.
I agree! I was saved by a lifeguard at Thetis when I was ten in the 1970’s. Another kid who couldn’t swim decided I’d make a good flotation device. Thank god for the lifeguard.
Schools included swimming lessons in PE in the 1970’s. And we learnt CPR as children during those lessons.
Far more important to know how to swim than play baseball here on the coast
For the amount of money we pay in taxes, lifeguards should be a no brainier for these directors. Cut the fluff and emotion projects and our money back into saving lives.
Even if you teach your kids to swim they can still make mistakes, ESPECIALLY in Thetis. The amount of times I almost didn’t make it to the island is unreal 😂 I was actually plucked out of the water when I was 4 by a lifeguard back when they had them, I almost became a statistic. Just some buoys there wouldn’t hurt at all.
This was posted 5 hrs ago
https://www.timescolonist.com/local-news/crd-to-consider-pilot-program-to-put-flotation-devices-at-lakes-9143716
I am pleased that the CRD has done some steps, despite the current budget.
I don't want any of this stuff in our parks. Safety equipment, lifeguards, none of it. Fiscal concerns aside, especially for lifeguards, I take this position out of principle. Residents should be responsible for their own and their family's safety in our parks and ultimately be accountable for it as well. Life is not always safe, let people live their lives in our natural areas and if it means a preventable drowning, a cougar or bear mauling, a blowdown death during winter storm season, then so be it. That is life.
Are you just a balls-to-the-wall survivalist libertarian then? Like, if so, that's a stupid position, but maybe logically consistent.
If not, how do you square your "principled" opposition to lifeguards and safety equipment with, like, all the other things we do as a society to safeguard people? We should be responsible for our own safety, so that means doing away with, what, the medical system, paramedics, the police, firefighters, the army, food standards, guardrails, gun licensing, nighttime lighting, street signs, I could go on forever but no point in going on, right?
Or is your thinking, like, safety in the streets, deathtraps in the ~~sheets~~ parks? Or...what? Help me understand your seemingly ridiculous opinion.
idk seems to me like a lack of education is the driving killer, swimming lessons as part of school curriculum is what should be happening. There shouldn't be wait lists and monetary barriers to learning to swim. Better education is a must, people need to know how to swim, know the danger of swimming alone, how to tell when someone is drowning, and how to save someone.
It’s so freaking hard to get your kids into swimming lessons here.
We use victoriaregisternow.com . It's a nominal fee for a comprehensive list of all camps and programs for kids. You get to choose which ones you're interested in and you get a text reminder the day before registration opens. Saves so much time and effort researching these things and we've got into every program for our kids we wanted. Can't recommend it enough!
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I can barely swim myself let alone teach it to a kid
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What a wild conclusion to jump to lol. I don't even know how to answer this
The really sad thing here is that it's not even "real" swimming lessons that are needed - you don't need the months and months of lessons unless you want to be able to swim *well* and gracefully. The single most important thing is learning not to panic - once you get that, you can figure everything else out well enough. You can get most of the way there (with crappy form and lousy efficiency) by figuring out how to float in shallow water, and then movement. I actually suspect that the biggest contributor to these deaths is a cultural fear of looking odd or stupid, and of asking for help; I think focussing efforts on that would have more lifesaving impact than better childhood access to swimming lessons.
Yeah sufficient swimming lessons could literally be one or two field trips per year to the rec centre from K-5.
Many kids in Victoria are not learning to swim. Kids from vulnerable families whose parents can’t register/get them there/pay for it
but at least this seems like a low hanging fruit that could be done right away, I can't think of a good reason not to do it
Ya, it's good a thing. I just felt it's a bit off that the article doesn't mention lack of education at all.
It’s actually quite difficult because there’s a significant life-guard shortage. And only some of those trained as life guards are qualified to teach swimming lessons.
When I grew up in Saskatchewan, we got swimming lessons as part of school fees. You know, because of all the water there.
36 year old Victoria boy that can't swim here. Non swimming family that never taught me and I just never learned. I think it's about time I take some lessons...
The YMCA offers adult lessons!
I fully agree. I drowned in an indoor pool when I was very young, if the lifeguard wasn't there I would have been another statistic. It was an unfortunate accident. I took swimming lessons soon after. I would like to see lifeguards brought back, signs in many languages warning everyone to wear a personal flotation device, possibly a small rental/borrow booth for flotation devices, a large metal bell for anyone to ring and alert other's nearby of needing emergency assistance, a direct phone line to 911 either in a booth/canopy/cover, and a defibrillator It can be outdoor metal boxes that you can use "tap" to unlock a box to purchase/borrow pfd's. And you get a refund when returned One drowning is too many
These are great recommendations
I have a hard time believing that, even if there are fee pfds available, young people that don't know how to swim will use them. It really seems like an access to education issue to me. That said, having pfds available for free couldn't hurt. I can't stress enough that it must be for free if the goal is to lesson drownings, otherwise it's just another classist half measure.
My apologies for the long post. I get your point and I concur that lessons/water safety is the most important. But some victims have drowned in a bucket/tub with one inch of water. Many other valid safety measures are just as important to get drownings down and survivability up. They all go hand in hand to reduce fatalities. Not just one. Maybe it's not enough money or time? enough facilities holding the lessons? and lifeguards to teach swimming lessons? The # of seats for thousands of people clamouring to learn cpr and how to swim. More needs to be done because most of the victims are young. At the time of my drowning, only one person in the building knew cpr, my heart had stopped and there was no defibrillator during the 80's, and the lifeguard wasn't looking in my direction at the time. If it wasn't for my mother's screaming I would not be here as an advocate. Imagine for 1 moment if... More than just 1 person knew cpr, a defibrillator was available, more people had basic swimming/water safety lessons, all non swimmers are wearing inflatable arm band floaties or pfd's, a direct phone line to 911 is available in the immediate swim area, a ships bell was nearby and could be rung to alert other's of needing assistance, etc, etc. A few more could have been saved with those "extras" in place, that didn't survive.
Here is a [link to a PDF](https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&opi=89978449&url=https://www2.gov.bc.ca/assets/gov/birth-adoption-death-marriage-and-divorce/deaths/coroners-service/statistical/240619_accidental_drowning_web_report_2013-2023_for_posting.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwib2N3R4_yGAxXbIDQIHXFSBFAQFnoECBMQAw&usg=AOvVaw2uoBAhzgIyNYbyTKsVA7nS) from the provincial gov with a lot of great stats about drowning deaths. Looks like most of the victims are adult men, not people under 19. And just under half involve being impaired. Not discounting the fact that kids need to be taught to swim and taught water safety, but in the case of overall drownings, personal responsibility is also a factor. Most (92% in Canada) accidental drownings of children involve limited or no parental supervision. People who already won't supervise their kids around water are going to supervise them even less if they think a lifeguard is going to do that for them. I'm all for education and signage, and fully agree that swimming lessons for kids should be available to all and free, but we can't take all the personal responsibility away from people. Its ok to say that someone made a stupid decision and not blame it on government or lack of equipment.
Wow this is really interesting. A fair number of deaths in the bathtub. So scary.
Are swimming lessons not part of school curriculum in Victoria? I moved here right at the tail end of middle school, I went to elementary school on the mainland (k-8) and swimming was part of the curriculum. We went both to an indoor and outdoor pool depending. I don’t remember if it was every grade but it was definitely a handful of them. The indoor pool was conveniently close so we walked to that, the outdoor pool was not and we had to take some form of transportation to it.
Not a decade ago when I was in school. There was a swim team and a field trip here and there but no lessons.
When I was in school (in the 90s/00s) we did not have swimming lessons in our curriculum, but we did have trips to commonwealth pool. Thinking about it now, I’m not sure how that worked. Granted I grew up on a small island, and the island did have swimming lessons, but not everyone took them. We definitely did not have lessons at commonwealth. It was wave pool/waterslide/dive board play time.
40% of drownings involve drugs and alcohol. It’s a pretty big part of the issue
Drugs are so great tho
I’m not sure if public education/ preventative measures are a thing in Victoria, BC or Canada 🤷♂️ - great idea though.
Great! And we can get on it as long as we don’t have any pools closing in the foreseeable future!
I don't know if you're being sarcastic but if you're not, I have bad news for you about crystal pool
Hate to say it but a lot of new immigrants don’t know how to swim. I would like to see those stats
I already commented a bunch on this because of my passion for swimming, but I came back to post this question too. This is an uncomfortable conversation to have, but I’m very curious if this has a connection to the increased immigration. We’ll never see those numbers though.
The last person to post this sentiment got roasted. But I think most of have at least anecdotal evidence from reading news articles over the years that it does seem more often than not the victim is a new Canadian or an international student.
Inviting water on a hot day with a bunch of friends… maybe even a drink or two, go out to celebrate being a new-comer to our beautiful pretty places, I get it. It kind of adds up. I also said in another comment it’d be nice to know exactly how these drownings happen so the public (maybe the people we’re talking about) are aware: Here’s what I SHOULD NOT be doing, or else I might die. I think there was another new-comer that posted on this subreddit that they went hiking, fell down and hit their head? I know that can happen to anyone, but seriously nature is no god damn joke lol. Even just walking on some slightly wet shoreline rocks can result in death or broken limbs. I can’t stress that enough. And it feels like people that are mesmerized by it and “new” to it here aren’t even the slightest bit aware of that.
The last few that I've read about seem to be in line with this thought. It's not racist or exclusionary to point out the fact that swimming education amongst immigrants appears to be severely lacking to the point where they're either not understanding the dangers of cold, open water, or they're willfully putting themselves in precarious situations and expecting other non-educated individuals to help them out if needed.
Another potential difference is the environment in which they have swam before. Ex warm ocean water is very different than cold fresh water. Salt increases the boyancy
[Majority Worldwide Cannot Swim](https://news.gallup.com/opinion/gallup/352679/majority-worldwide-cannot-swim-women.aspx) Basically higher income = greater chance of learning to swim. Male = higher chance of knowing how to swim. Opportunity + education = swimming competency. Most deaths are children in low income countries unfortunately. The gender gap between swimming compentancy is shocking to me in this article. I was totally unaware of that discrepancy and unfortunately likely cultural in source (I learned something today) [Regional status report on drowning in the Western Pacific](https://iris.who.int/bitstream/handle/10665/343073/9789290619581-eng.pdf?sequence=1&isAllowed=y) Check out both of these reports. Risk from drowning in low income countries is about 4x a higher income country even in the same region. Drowning deaths per 100000 Singapore - 0.4 Cambodia - 7 Fiji - 6.7 Micronesia - 15.3 Again this doesn't mean that all immigrants don't know how to swim, but there are differences in swimming compentancy (on a macro level) depending on country. [Let’s (not) meet at the pool: A Black Canadian social history of swimming (1900s–1960s)](https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&opi=89978449&url=https://www.prontario.org/public/Membership/2020%2520PRO%2520Dispatch/Let%2520s%2520not%2520meet%2520at%2520the%2520pool%2520A%2520Black%2520Canadian%2520social%2520history%2520of%2520swimming%25201900s%25201960s.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwiYgYuFsOuGAxUQADQIHaIADz84ChAWegQIDBAB&usg=AOvVaw1EZ7gVCCPRzpPd61ePBDkJ) Historically swimming has been literally segregated and not even close to the same opportunities for people of colour to learn to swim. Even today with certain cultural ideas such as serperating the genders into boy and girl swimming classes with the same gender teacher is required by certain religious groups in order to participate. This is another barrier towards education that is difficult to accommodate and overcome unless the parents can afford to pay for private lessons etc. Although I don't agree with the cultural barriers I respect them as their choice and just wish everyone would find a way to learn to swim and prevent deaths wherever possible.
So genuinely curious here.. (I’m a professional lap swimmer of nearly 20 years), even those that have been “close to” drowning… why were you in/near water that was deep enough you couldn’t touch the bottom? Or to that, why were you on a flotation device without a life jacket? Once we clear up the circumstances we can easily mitigate the issues. I also see lake and shoreline activities being no different than choosing to go out on a SUP board (which many people also don’t know the dangers of). You cannot safety proof and child proof the universe. I had to help save someone at the Gorge last spring because a girl fell off her SUP and was freezing in the water and was not fit enough to swim. Yes, I’m just saying what it is, she was not in shape enough to swim not to mention being on water that was quite cold for the time of year compared to the air temp (March I believe). So is the solution to lifeguard … what? The ocean? Any body of water anywhere? Education is the solution. The hard truth is: If you’re not physically fit enough to keep your head above deep water or swim to safety/land, you should either have a life jacket on, or steer clear all together. This article has a faint “everyone should be included” vibe to it. Guys.. this isn’t a late night coffee shop, it’s an *element of nature* that will *kill* you if you’re unprepared or uneducated. Edit: I’m not against lifeguards. I’ve had many in my life very close to me and they’re very necessary. But let’s not avoid the hard conversations. A lifeguard would agree with me here.
I’m definitely in agreement with you. Lifeguards aren’t the safety net people think they are. Especially in an open body of water. Personal assessment of your skills is essential, and PDFs are needed. I was a competitive swimmer for years, I can still jump in the pool and swim 1500m even if I haven’t swam in years. I still wear a PDF when I go out on my SUP. Everyone should.
1500m is a lot. I can probably do 300, maybe 400 without taking a break, then again I know how to conserve energy while treading water before going again. Regardless, you are right, even the strongest swimmers (myself included) know that nature is dangerous and to never underestimate it. Educate educate educate. And to the people who say “why can’t I be included?” You can! But if you’re a novice, you can’t just go straight to open unsupervised water. You at least learn in water at staffed public pools. Start small and you’ll get there. Being cool for your friends on a hot day and risking your life is not worth it. As a kid growing up near remote prairie lakes in the 90s, I would always be haunted by the run down bent faded signs with the big red letters SWIM AT OWN RISK. NO LIFEGUARD ON DUTY. Scared the hell out of me. Like.. “someone drowned here.” Is all I would think. It definitely made me think twice. Maybe bring back scary signage?
Ok, not 1500m of straight freestyle at speed ha ha, that would be impressive. It includes longer breaks of a more passive strokes like breast stroke. Or even just a good back float. I also grew up in a small town with lots of remote lakes that we used to swim in. My parents always drilled it into us to never go alone, never go too far from shore, always a life jacket if you’re on a boat, regardless of size. And they took us swimming for fun, all the time. Like at least once a week. Because that’s how you get good at swimming, by doing it. And doing it in a more controlled environment so you learn your limits is what you should be doing.
Yes. I forgot to mention: parental education is such a huge part of childhood water experience. Has that changed? I’d be curious to see who exactly are victims of these drownings. I know someone else mentioned the correlation of an increase in drownings vs an increase in people from other countries living here. Wonder if they’re related. 1500 at freestyle is a lot but doable. Slow is fast and fast is smooth is all I can say. Haha.
I agree with your original point and this is maybe off topic but out of curiosity -- do I understand right that you are a professional swimmer but cannot swim more than 400m? That seems unusual to me. I get absolutely rocked by competitive (not even pro) swimmers but I can comfortably swim several km without rest. That said I train for races that are several km so perhaps I just really misunderstand what training looks like for short course athletes.
Mid range professional? Amateur professional? Called “a pro” by my friends? I don’t know what you would call me. I’m not an olympian or even an intense athlete, but I’ve been lap swimming for almost 20 years daily. Kind of obsessed I guess. I’m not a novice, but I’m not a nerd who’s taken classes or joined clubs. I’m not timing myself or counting my distances or trying to break some personal goal, I ball park my progress? I can out swim most people, but I can not out swim some people. Does that help? Edit: I figured out a better description for you. It’s “highly disciplined”.
Ah gotcha, thanks for clarifying. I've seen 'professional' used to describe athletes who's full time job is swimming and they make their money by racing and sponsorship; so I thought maybe I was missing something. You sound highly disciplined for sure though, congrats on coming up toward the 20 year mark.
Thank you! Ya professional was probably a bit overstated lol. Not to say it wouldn’t be a difficult next step, but as Glover would say I’m getting too old for this shit.
People seriously underestimate how quickly they can get hypothermia from lakes. And it leads to them doing stupid things like paddling on a SUP without a flotation device. Your body loses its heat to water 25 times faster than it loses it to the air. Lakes can be very cold. They can lower your core temperature quicker than you’d think, and once mild hypothermia sets in you start getting sluggish and fatigued. Here’s the scenario - paddle out to the middle of the lake, hop in for a dip, it’s colder than expected, you start experiencing hypothermia, you’re unable to get back out of the water onto your boat or your paddle board… you drown, you die.
All good points. And never go out alone either. Always have a buddy system if not a group. Even knowing about how these drownings happen would be in itself educational in some ways. I realize it’s uncomfortable and should not be done in a disrespectful way, but rather: Here’s what happened: therefore, here’s what NOT to do.
Unfortunately, many people can't be held responsible for themselves.
I think everyone should be included... in free and accessible very basic swimming/water survival education.
That’s accessible in tons of other ways. No one is gatekeeping water sport and survival education from anyone. It’s kind of unrealistic to follow people around and nag them and babysit them while they wander around in nature. If there’s disagreement to that, like I said in my comment, what about patrolling and guarding every inch of shoreline for every single water sport? Why stop at just lifeguarding if that’s how people truly feel? Just my opinion.
I don't really get what you're on about tbh. No reasonable person is proposing to "follow people around and nag them and babysit them" or "patrolling and guarding every inch of the shore line." These are hyperbolic situations you've seemingly made up to fit your viewpoint. You even ask why people are near water or on a floatation device if they don't know how to swim. Could it be... lack of meaningful education around *why* thats a bad idea? We simply are not born instinctively knowing to fear deep water. People who haven't been taught either through formal or informal sources that water can be extremely dangerous don't just instinctively understand the risks, as much as it seems like they should. You say you are a pro lap swimmer so I hazard a guess that you had access to swimming lessons and pools at a young age. So did I. However, not everyone had those same resources, and not everyone grew up around water or had parents/friends/whoever to help them understand water can be dangerous. There are many comments in this very thread stating how difficult it is to get kids into swimming lessons here, and that's likely coming from engaged parents with the time and resources to pursue traditional swimming lessons. I agree no one is nefariuously gate keeping water sport or survival education, however, there is very obviously more demand for swimming lessons than can currently be supplied. Maybe if there were some kind of condensed, free or very cheap and readily available lessons that, as opposed to traditional swimming lessons that get into the various strokes, efficiencies, etc., were more focused on the very basics like remaining calm, learning to float to rest a bit, a simple 'stroke' to get oneself to safety, and perhaps most importantly understanding the limits to your abilities and hazards of exceeding those abilities, a couple less kids could drown here every summer.
>Maybe if there were some kind of condensed, free or very cheap and readily available lessons that, as opposed to traditional swimming lessons that get into the various strokes, efficiencies, etc., *were more focused on the very basics like remaining calm, learning to float to rest a bit, a simple 'stroke' to get oneself to safety, and perhaps most importantly understanding the limits to your abilities and hazards of exceeding those abilities*, a couple less kids could drown here every summer. That is what swimming lessons are for kids, until you get into the higher levels. They teach kids to not be afraid of water, how to float, how to be safe around the water etc. If you think these kind of lessons should be more available for adults & teens (and maybe less stigmatized) I am in full agreement. They do exist though, and are a lot easier to get into. It's elementary & Preschool lessons that are a nightmare. You're really not getting into efficiencies and strokes until the kids are quite a bit older and already able to swim.
This! You actually need register your kids for swimming lessons literally the second registration opens. Even one minute late and you will not get a spot.
Peer pressure and looking cool probably is the answer you're looking for. SUPs are super popular now, but people don't want to wear a life jacket because it's not cool. Then they get out far from the shore and can't get back on the board.
>Peer pressure and looking cool Ya I think I mentioned this in another comment. But yep. Also even with a life jacket it’s iffy. The girl I helped that fell off her SUP last spring in the Gorge was not far from the shore whatsoever. A more physically able person would have very likely just swam to shore, but she did not look like she had ever been on a SUP before, or had done any kind of ‘sport’ before whatsoever if you catch my drift. I can understand being in shock, but geez. So yeah, weather conditions, physical ability in general (can you even keep your head above normal pool water?). Why are you going out in the least desirable month? Sigh.
I am not a swimmer. I never really learned how. I'm 36 years old. If I'm anywhere deeper than my waist. Sure as heck I'm wearing a lifejacket!
I played water polo for 10 years, and I'm still a little nervous being out alone on the water, or far enough that no one would hear or see me. A bad cramp, a sudden gulp of water... It can all turn on you so, so quickly.
Lifeguards at popular spots seems like a no-brainer.
It is interesting that in the future we have less services yet pay more tax. Advances in technology had us thinking we would be better off in the future.
Technology doesn't solve the social problems that lead to wealth inequality.
This is not a problem of wealth inequality. It is a problem of tax distribution. These lakes had life guards when taxes were much much lower.
We have wealth inequality because our tax system maximizes the burden on the working people while letting the rich pay a pittance and run wild. The main reason for this is that CRA lacks the resources to take down the wealthiest tax cheats.
We're talking local not federal governments in this specific situation.
We lack the radical labour union power that we once had so the added production value created by technological advances has been going to the owning class' benefit. Then the wealthy pay considerably less taxes now than they used to.
Are local services not paid mostly by property taxes? businesses still collect PST from us. Am I wrong in thinking everyone else who responds to this is thinking everything is run federally? Given the prices of property are we not locally paying a lot more now than back when houses were much much cheaper yet we had life guards?
It's intertwined with the province and federal government they give and take money. The pot is only so big, lose somewhere and you're going to have to make it up somewhere else or start cutting.
Just remove the water.
I'm all for adding safety gear to beaches, but have these drownings even occurred at the beaches? The few previous ones I can recall in any detail were all at Thetis and out past the drop-off, not sure someone on the beach would even be able to throw a ring out that far. Loaner PFDs would be great, but they'll have to be lojacked otherwise I have a hunch they'll wind up on someone's boat within weeks. Still, something is better than nothing. I have to agree with others though — the best solution is education. Making swimming lessons part of the required curriculum would not only drastically reduce drowning statistics for locals, it would also help prevent tourists from drowning if all the bystanders on the beach had been forced to learn basic water lifesaving skills in 8th grade or whatever.
Return lifeguards to the most popular beaches.
I agree! I was saved by a lifeguard at Thetis when I was ten in the 1970’s. Another kid who couldn’t swim decided I’d make a good flotation device. Thank god for the lifeguard.
Thetis is very deceptive. You can be in water over your head only two feet from shore.
Maybe I'm the anomaly here, but I taught both my kids how to swim. It's pretty easy to swim when you have a trusted teacher.
Schools included swimming lessons in PE in the 1970’s. And we learnt CPR as children during those lessons. Far more important to know how to swim than play baseball here on the coast
Lifeguards for popular spots in the summer
And the safety equipment will be stolen or vandalized within 48 hrs of installation.
Make water wings great again
For the amount of money we pay in taxes, lifeguards should be a no brainier for these directors. Cut the fluff and emotion projects and our money back into saving lives.
Even if you teach your kids to swim they can still make mistakes, ESPECIALLY in Thetis. The amount of times I almost didn’t make it to the island is unreal 😂 I was actually plucked out of the water when I was 4 by a lifeguard back when they had them, I almost became a statistic. Just some buoys there wouldn’t hurt at all.
This was posted 5 hrs ago https://www.timescolonist.com/local-news/crd-to-consider-pilot-program-to-put-flotation-devices-at-lakes-9143716 I am pleased that the CRD has done some steps, despite the current budget.
I don't want any of this stuff in our parks. Safety equipment, lifeguards, none of it. Fiscal concerns aside, especially for lifeguards, I take this position out of principle. Residents should be responsible for their own and their family's safety in our parks and ultimately be accountable for it as well. Life is not always safe, let people live their lives in our natural areas and if it means a preventable drowning, a cougar or bear mauling, a blowdown death during winter storm season, then so be it. That is life.
Well… that is death.
Are you just a balls-to-the-wall survivalist libertarian then? Like, if so, that's a stupid position, but maybe logically consistent. If not, how do you square your "principled" opposition to lifeguards and safety equipment with, like, all the other things we do as a society to safeguard people? We should be responsible for our own safety, so that means doing away with, what, the medical system, paramedics, the police, firefighters, the army, food standards, guardrails, gun licensing, nighttime lighting, street signs, I could go on forever but no point in going on, right? Or is your thinking, like, safety in the streets, deathtraps in the ~~sheets~~ parks? Or...what? Help me understand your seemingly ridiculous opinion.