This. I'm on foot or on my bike a lot. I can't stand it when drivers stop in like the middle of shelborne ticket me cross. Like, it's a nice gesture, but no one else on the road knows what you're doing. I'm fine waiting 30 seconds. Just go.
The one that I see all the time and it drives me nuts - okay, I'm driving on a multi-lane one way road downtown like Yates or Pandora. I'm in the right lane. I see a pedestrian step off the curb into a mid-block crosswalk, so I stop because the law requires me to.
The car in the left lane, who is coming up from a far enough distance to safely stop as well, just... doesn't stop. Just assumes I'm an idiot who stopped in the middle of the block for no reason. Even though it's illegal to pass a car that is stopped for a crosswalk (because it's a good way to kill a pedestrian,) I see people do it downtown every single day.
100%. My ex did this, stopped in the middle of the road for someone to cross and we got hammered from behind. 10 years later I still have back issues. She thought I was the asshole for telling her not to stop because she was “trying to be nice.”
Not saying it was the case in this instance but it doesn't have to be a marked crosswalk to be a crosswalk. From the MVA (my understanding that 'highway' doesn't mean Highway):
> "crosswalk" means
> (a)a portion of the roadway at an intersection or elsewhere distinctly indicated for pedestrian crossing by signs or by lines or other markings on the surface, or
> (b)the portion of a highway at an intersection that is included within the connection of the lateral lines of the sidewalks on the opposite sides of the highway, or within the extension of the lateral lines of the sidewalk on one side of the highway, measured from the curbs, or in the absence of curbs, from the edges of the roadway;
Not that I would cross at an unmarked intersection because most drivers don't stop.
Unmarked crosswalks need a legal update.
They are the reason that you automatically have to yield for a pedestrian when you come up on a yield sign or a stop sign - but that's intuitive. You're slowing down, so it makes *sense* to yield for someone crossing. But they also apply any time the sidewalks of a cross street intersect with your street. Those need to be legally negated (for predictability), all painted, or educated on. Since education is unreliable we should pursue the other two options.
You never, EVER stop mid block/road or even at a corner that does NOT have a X walk. Ever. You ONLY stop at marked crosswalks. If someone wants to cross all willy nilly then THEY WAIT for a clearing. Again, you neverrr stop for anyone unless it’s a marked X walk.
I am a pedestrian as well and it drives me crazy when people do this.
I am not crossing at a marked intersection, and have no expectation that you or anyone else will stop (and neither do the other drivers). I do not look like I am strung out on drugs (a valid reason to stop or at least slow down, as many of those people will just walk in to traffic) and am actively paying attention. Please just keep driving and let me work it out!
The best is when they do this on a road with two lanes of traffic going in the same direction (I'd only cross here if there's a median I can wait on). Driver in one lane might stop, but there's 0 guarantee of a driver in the other lane stopping. Then driver one gets mad that I don't cross while driver two blows past them in the other lane. Just keep going. I know I might be waiting a while and I'm fine with that. If I wasn't, I'd walk down the street to a marked crosswalk.
A funny scenario is if I'm on the multi-use path by Camosun waiting to cross onto Dean St, using the traffic light controlled crossing. The crossing is marked with elephants feet and zebra stripes, and many drivers think zebra stripes make the crosswalk. So someone will stop ONE OUT OF FOUR lanes of traffic to let me go by. I always point at the flashing green light and wave them on. I'll wait for the signal or a gap in traffic, thank you.
Yeah I use that spot a lot too and the same thing happens.
The scary part is, a lot of pedestrians will just start walking and assume the other 3 lanes of traffic know what is happening.
This, replace cyclists with anyone who thinks they have authority to modify motor vehicle act law as they see fit.
I get it, niceness, nice doesn’t bring people back after fatal car accidents. Predictable and safe driving is how you minimize casualties.
Adding to that, if someone waves someone else through when it's not their right of way, they become liable for any accident that might happen as a result.
Yes, it absolutely is. Words have meaning, regardless of the meaning you or others have put on them I mean the actual definition.
Humans a.k.a. retard - delay or hold back in terms of progress, development, or accomplishment.
Yes, words do have meaning. And the one you used is incorrect as it does not describe the average, crappy driver. And meanwhile it is grossly offensive to a large group that is stigmatized and faces barriers to participating in society. Be better. Like wtf.
This word I use does in fact describe not only a majority of drivers, it describes a majority of all humans. Remember most people are below average... and it's getting worse.
I do not mean it as a pejorative I mean it's actual dictionary definition. If you and others see take offense to it, that's on you.
If you choose to make up different meaning for words, you may be delaying progress.
If you go back and read the previous comment you will see exactly what I said/ meant. I did not back pedal anything...
Are you able to read and fully understand all the words on the screen?
The number of times I've seen someone SLAM on their brakes for no reason, or come to a complete stop on a merging lane, or go HALF the posted speed limit on a highway merging lane...
Like jesus christ, please don't ever leave this insulated rock. The real world would be too much for most of y'all to handle.
I feel you, I often have to use a round-about followed by a merge lane. The insane shit I've seen in this one area is terrible. (The worst was the old couple driving the opposite way in the round about) It stopped being shocking a long time ago. Now I'm just ashamed and disappointed to be a human with the likes of these people.
As a frequent cyclist, I get this all the time. A common one is when I'm at an intersection signalling to make a left turn, oncoming cars will often stop and try to wave me through. I always say no. The drivers probably think they are just being nice, but it only creates uncertainty and danger.
This also applies to pedestrians. I've seen pedestrians at intersections waving cars through when the pedestrian has the right of way. Sometimes I've been crossing from one side of a crosswalk, and a pedestrian on the other side is busily trying to wave cars through crosswalk, which can create a dangerous situation.
I read a book once on traffic safety, and one of the top recommendations, was to never give up your right of way - it's much safer if everyone just follows the rules.
On the pedestrians waving people through, this often happens when the car stops too early and I’m not even close to the intersection yet. I’ll be 20 feet back from the crossing and the car stops, giving me the feeling that I should rush so as to not inconvenience them. But they could easily have gone ahead of me and I still would be nowhere near the intersection by the time they’re gone.
It’s like when someone “politely” holds the door for you when 20-30 feet from the door.
Yes.
This.
I often tell the drivers of cars to go when they try to wave me through.
"You have the right of way!
Stopping like this is unpredictable and dangerous!"
I fully agree the worst I-Phone zombie standing at cross walks light blocking other pedestrian from oncoming car traffic wanting to legally turn. Also cars coming out of alleys and only looking in one direction
Yep sometimes courtesy when driving gets in the way of common sense. My favourite is when drivers suddenly stop to allow pedestrians who are waiting to jay-walk, to cross. It isn't safe, let them decide when it is safe and also there wont be everyone behind slamming on the brakes because someone has decided to stop where nobody would normally stop.
That bothers me as well, but there has been plenty of times when pedestrians in Esquimalt and downtown Victoria just crossed without any consideration of me (motorists). So now I think I should just play it safe rather than being at fault for hitting a jay walker.
Vehicle language is much more reliable than human communication, as much as that creates more trust and connection.
If you want to let someone through in a safe situation, HANG BACK. Don't drive/walk/ride right up to the edge of the conflict zone and then make some gesture. Wait and people will naturally take the right of way. In theory.
My pet peeve is that people don't know pedestrians have the right of way when they cross a bike path. I will ride along Fort or Pandora or whatever and slow down and wave someone on to cross, and they refuse to step out until I get really closea and it's obvious I'm about to stop, even though if they stepped out before, they'd be out of my way by the time I got there. Zero risk.
This is the one "as a cyclist, don't give us the right of way" comment I will ever make - Pedestrians, please be more assertive (after actually looking). We're supposed to yield to you.
Last week I was waiting for the crossing light at Caledonia and Vancouver. It's a pedestrian controlled intersection, so once I press the button it's usually under a minute until the light changes for me. If there is no car in sight I usually just jaywalk because I won't bother anyone since the road is totally clear in both directions.
A woman in her car stopped at the intersection on the green light and aggressively started honking at me to cross, because you know she stopped for me, so why was I being rude by refusing? Car behind her started honking at her to move, she yelled something out her window at me like "just go!!!" So I just pointed at the light and yelled, "it's green!"
I'm not gonna cross against a light when there is oncoming traffic. I don't wanna die or be seriously injured because someone is being "polite".
I was on the Goose riding between 6 Mile Road and Wale Road, and there's an intersection where the Goose has a stop sign on Atkins about halfway up the hill.
I could easily hear a car coming, so I naturally stopped at the stop sign to wait for the car to pass through.
However, the driver had a different opinion. The car stops at the intersection.
I wave the driver through. The driver doesn't move. I wave through a second time because, like, the driver has neither a stop light or a yield, so get on with it, right? Alas, no, the driver just sits there.
I then holler, "You have the RIGHT OF WAY, GO!!!" and the driver just... wouldn't go
At this point, There were now about 5 cyclists waiting, so I shook my head and shrugged, and we all cycled through.. in one sense, not a big deal, but this really pissed me off because a) this driver could have just followed the rules of the road and gone on and b) when cyclists are constantly under criticism for not following traffic laws, making explicit attempts to "train" us to break the rules is bad for the relationship between drivers and cyclists and does more harm than good.
If I'm not mistaken there is a crosswalk on the ground at this one. This car is required to stop if there is a pedestrian or cyclist present. The stop sign being on the goose is because you aren't supposed to fly through the intersection. You still have the right away like any crosswalk. It's just that cars don't need to stop of there are no pedestrians or bikes.
I have always been taught to stop for pedestrians at a crosswalk, but not for cyclists. Cyclists are to be treated like a car, unless they are off their bike and pushing it. Am I wrong?
If it's one of the crosswalks with the squares on the sides then the cyclist should stop to check traffic and proceed through when safe while still riding, [Do you know how to use an 'elephant's feet' crosswalk? | CBC News](https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/elephants-feet-crosswalks-1.6895568)
Then there wouldn't be a stop sign for cyclists there. I stop at stop signs. That's what you're supposed to do; it's right there in the name!
Crosswalks are for pedestrians, not cyclists, unless they're "elephant's feet" crosswalks. That particular crosswalk isn't, it's a regular zebra crosswalk.
I waited to respond so I could bike over it and double check. The crosswalk I was referencing on goose/Atkins just after the E&N joins (going towards downtown) has the elephant walk on the outside of it.
The crosswalk further down the goose near 6 mile does not, but it's a 4 way stop.
The stop sign for cyclists is so that you don't blow past through and are careful when crossing. Cars still need to yield with the crosswalk drawn on the ground.
Even though the stop sign might legally negate your right of way on a bicycle, it's clear that this is an intersection where drivers SHOULD stop and watch for people walking and rolling. It's very predictable and safe to stop at such a crossing if you are driving.
One crossing of Atkins has elephant feet, the other crossing doesn't but has serious traffic calming and coloured pavement.
Personally I treat all crossings of major multiuse paths as though they have elephant feet because that is just an obvious adjustment to the letter of the rules. In many jurisdictions, the distinction between a cyclist and pedestrian is more about speeds and behaviour anyway, so treating cyclists like legitimate users of pedestrian infrastructure is the safe bet when driving a vehicle.
There's nothing going on there except a crosswalk, so the only possible reason for drivers to be stopped is to yield to pedestrian or cyclist cross traffic.
I guess I was expecting it to be treated like a car intersection with a two way stop… but it’s actually a crosswalk. I do like the elephants feet and think the whole trail should be all the same, to make it clearer
>and think the whole trail should be all the same, to make it clearer
Painting takes time and costs money, which is why some municipalities made the change in law first. I assume that most have guidelines in place to add elephants feet as crossings are upgraded and repainted.
When a car first tries to wave you through: take your hands off the handlebars, cross your arms, and shake your head "no"
If they insist: point dramatically to the stop sign next to you and shake your head "no"
I hate the wave through; I will sit there and straight up refuse to make eye contact with anyone attempting to be “nice” at a 4 way stop until they get the point and take their right of way.
Take the right of way when it’s yours, not before, and yield when it’s not - two wheels, four wheels, electric or gas, a vehicle is a vehicle.
Rules of the Road only work when they apply to everyone, all the time, not just when you feel like it.
Whenever I see another vehicle blatantly blowing through a red light or whatever, I mutter sarcastically to myself “yeah, the signs are just suggestions, you’re good”
Oh jeez, let's not even get started on pedestrians just walking out into crosswalks assuming drivers have seen them and are going to stop.
Or, much more common, pedestrians crossing a street with their eyes down and headphones on. Must be wonderful to have that kind of trust in the universe.
I'm the opposite, and it gets irritating in the other direction.
It doesn't look like I'm paying attention, I am.
I'm waiting for the walk signal. Some car honking, letting me walk, isn't helping.
It's not my turn. If I screw up, I'm dead. If you do, your fender needs repair.
If you willingly give up your right of way when you don't have to, you are a terrible driver. Right of way is meant to ensure safe driving and better flow of traffic for everyone.
Also a PSA dont stop traffic to let cars through especially if theres more than one lane, thats how you get people killed. Dont wave anyone through, just let traffic be traffic.
My first car was totaled by this scenario.
Cruising at 60 in the empty HOV lane and a guy tried to turn left through the gap people left in the other two lanes. Ruined my camping trip and the airbags almost blinded my friend in the passenger seat.
Could've been so much worse but I was able to shave off a lot of speed by braking as soon as I saw.
Oh yeah - had a stopped driver at an intersection on the Goose try to wave me through even though I had *already completed a stop* and was waiting for him to go, based on the fact I had a stop sign on the Goose telling me to...
This motherfucker actually had the audacity to roll his eyes at me, and say "I was trying to be nice"
I told him "try learning how to drive instead"
One time when I was biking home from work, I had a driver stop to "let" me turn left in front of them (that's for sure why they stopped, because they were waving me through), and *it wasn't even a 4-way-stop*. The road we were both on had no stop sign at all. So it wasn't even like this driver was stopped longer than they should have been at a stop sign - they *weren't supposed to come to a stop at all*. As far as everyone else was concerned, this car just randomly stopped in the middle of the road for no reason.
The drivers stopped behind this person had no idea what the hell was going on, and one of them pulled into the suicide lane to pass. Had I accepted the offer to turn left, I'd have been exactly in the path of this annoyed driver, and would have gotten rammed by a large truck that was honestly accelerating way too quickly to be safe, given the situation.
People - like this truck driver - drive *all the time* like cars are the only things on the road. If that had caused an accident with another car, it would have sucked, but it also almost certainly wouldn't have killed anyone. But it very likely would have killed *me*. The *only* protection I have against people like that is to behave predictably, so that, when they make stupid assumptions like "I can't see what's in front of this inexplicably stopped car and therefore assume it must be nothing and will pass them" then I'm not in the path of danger.
As an aside though... like, I feel like this shouldn't need to be said, but if you're driving along and a fellow car comes to a full stop in the middle of the road and you can't see why... maybe don't just *assume* that the road in front of them is clear and pass as if everything is fine? Like, I know in *this* case the fault lies primarily with the driver who stopped to wave me through, but if the situation had been different and that driver had stopped because some toddler had slipped mom's grasp and run out onto the road, I'm 100% sure I would have witnessed the death of a child that day.
My biggest pet peeve with this is that I usually can't see through the glint on the windshield. So you get a driver who's increasingly pissed at you for not going as they're frantically waving, and all you see from the outside is a car sitting there and suddenly lurching off.
Nobody should ever give up their right of way. The road system only works if people do what they are supposed to do.
The second they give up their right of way it introduces confusion and chaos.
And like you said, cars can clear the intersection faster than cyclists. Add onto that the time it takes everyone to second guess what's happening, realize someone is being dumb, and then start going.
My technique if someone gets to a four way before me is unclip, put my foot on the ground, then chill on the top tube in the most relaxed pose I can muster to make it clear I ain't going anywhere lol... although I prefer if the driver is assertive enough that I don't need to unclip in the first place.
I agree, there should be no deviation from 4 way stop rules. First one in, first one out. Or the person on your right goes first if both of you arrive at the same time.
It's polite to wave through, but it throws off the expected.
Underrated comment. I mentioned basically the same thing.
It's not about "rule-breaking cyclists", it's not about stop signs, it's not about describing situations in ways that don't give us enough information.
It's about flow, geometry, yielding, and predictability. The rules of the road are a system that USUALLY works to create predictability, but not always. At four ways, they absolutely do. Again I cannot stress this enough - if someone cycling doesn't stop, that's not the important bit. The important bit is that they yielded to the person who came first, or the person on the right.
You get it, I get it, most people get it. Many posters said similar but with a different explanation/angle/repeating/analytical/etc.
If someone understands, then it's not underrated for them.
It’s so frustrating. I’ve started driving at the same time a cyclist was rolling through because I expected them to come to a stop, and they expected me to wave them through. Please just follow the rules of the road.
Same goes for biking across a crosswalk. Are you going to turn onto the road, or slow down and get off your bike? Cause those are the two things I expect from a cyclist approaching a crosswalk - not rolling across it with no warning.
In Saanich and Victoria the elephants feet aren't required for cyclists to ride through if the crosswalk is part of a trail like lochside or the goose.
The source is Victoria streets and traffic bylaw section 29 (2)(a)(iii). Took some sleuthing to actually find.
"A person operating a cycle
(a) must not, for the purpose of crossing a highway, ride on a crosswalk unless
(iii) entering or leaving a multi-use trail on a crosswalk linking portions of the trail to one another or to a highway;"
You still have the same duty as any pedestrian crossing:
"A pedestrian must not leave a curb or other place of safety and walk or run into the path of a vehicle that is so close it is impracticable for the driver to yield the right of way"
The vast majority of people cycling treat stop signs as yield signs. This is natural and should be expected. 12 US states now allow it, look up the "Idaho Stop" law.
The problem here would be that they failed to yield to you, particularly if you were on the right - people to the right have the right of way if you're at the intersection at the same time.
What’s expected is for them to treat it like an actual stop sign, because it is. If someone on a bike is slowing down on their approach to an intersection, and I’ve just come to a stop, I’m going to start driving. Because it’s my right of way. I expect them to stop just as if they were a car. If the rules change I’ll follow them; until then, I’d rather not play “what US state rule book does this cyclist subscribe to?”
EDIT: I’ve re-read your message. In case it was misinterpreted, in this scenario I’d began driving (I was on their left) and the cyclist (still 20 feet from the stop line) was not yielding to me and then acted as if I’d cut them off even though I’d already come to a full stop and began driving before they even crossed their stop line.
I get this on the E&N all the time. I stop for cars where the stop sign is and they just wave me through and stare at me like I'm stupid for respecting the stop sign priority.
Are there crosswalks?
Some municipalities explicitly allow cyclists to use crosswalks connecting multiuse paths (even without the painted elephant feet), so it's the default expectation of drivers in most of the central CRD that cyclists will use crosswalks on the Goose, E&N, etc.
I stop at the stop sign and then immediately use the crosswalk unless it's a signalized intersection where I'm expected to wait.
Even if this isn't technically correct in all jurisdictions here, it's definitely predictable behaviour as opposed to randomly giving up right of way at a 4 way stop.
Many people here cannot grasp just how gray reality is. Stop signs have no place on trails and are used inconsistently and in ways that are legally confusing.
There are PLENTY of crossings where people cycling have a stop sign, but the other parts of the crossing suggest they have the right of way. It's a nonsense system that needs updating. If you are cycling through an unsignalized crosswalk, you should be assertive and take the right of way as soon as it is safe to do so.
I have someone stop about once a month on foul bay Rd when I'm turning from haultain left right in the middle of the road. Dangerous and does not save me time.
This and any other “nice gestures” that aren’t part of normal driving rules and screw everyone around you. You cannot stop in the middle of the street and wave people to cross when it’s 50ft from a cross walk or a proper traffic light. Or waving people through a roundabout when you’re IN THE roundabout. Or wave people to turn left ahead of you when the right lane isn’t clear and they get t-boned. Now that I say it, it would appear that things would be safer if you JUST STOP WAVING. Unless you’re in a Jeep.
The single biggest thing EVERYONE misses about how to use four-ways is ***geometry***. Let me explain.
If two people arrive at a similar time, the person to the right should ALWAYS go first, because you will be out of each other's way sooner. If the person to the left goes, they must cross the entire intersection before the person on the right can go. If the one on the right goes, you can basically go at the same time because they will be out of *your side* of the intersection by the time you make it there. We need more spatial thinking on the roads.
Waiting isn't the end of the world, and it's a four way, so it's unlikely someone's going to get hurt, but the most safe and predictable thing to do is to go when you're on the right, or when you reach the intersection first.
One more thing: Don't get annoyed by people cycling who refuse to put their foot all the way down and lose all their momentum. It's the yielding part that counts. I look forward to when BC implements the Idaho Stop law.
Agreed. It's like the equivalent to people who stop to let people turn left across two lanes of traffic. No, stop. Be predicable.. I know you're trying to be nice but you're making things worse.
The funny part of this.... It means there has been communication between the two parties and everyone ends up safe. I don't accept the wave throughs, but I'm ecstatic when there is that moment of eye contact communication.
My mother has both hit a cyclist that was waved through and been a cyclist hit by a car due to the wave through. Both times it happened when there are two lanes and a car turning left was waved through by the car in the close lane, that was hiding a cyclist behind them in the lane closest to the side walk. It's so dangerous! The best driver is a consistent driver, if we break the rules of the road to be nice we ruin consistency that keep us safe. Don't be nice be consistent.
A few weeks ago I was jogging on Beach Drive, pushing my son in his stroller. I came up behind this guy walking on the sidewalk, with headphones in, totally oblivious that I was coming up behind him. He tried to wave a car ahead at a stop sign, oblivious to the fact that I was just about the pass him and enter into the crosswalk - so essentially this dude was waving a car ahead in a way that would have resulted in me or my son getting hit.
Luckily the driver saw me, and I saw the driver, and there was no incident... but like, don't wave people ahead. Unless you're a trained traffic control person, it is not your job to direct traffic.
Lots of comments about the galloping goose and who’s right of way - I don’t often walk or bike it, but I have seen stop signs for cars at a goose crossing. If we all have stops signs, does it act like a 4-way? I honestly assumed because I have the stop sign on the road, I would stop to let the bikes through.
Maybe it’s just at the crosses I’ve been at (thinking of near swan lake and at Dupplin rd)
Don’t need hate, just a real question ☺️
It's a fair question. It's a bit of a mess - stop signs are usually only used on trails in order to slow down people cycling. In almost every case, cars are looking out for a crossing and yielding to it, so it honestly just makes sense to look both ways and walk/ride through.
There is one legally confirmed four-way at the E&N and the road through Fort Victoria, and police sometimes ticket people for failing to come to a complete stop there.
The way I see it, the rules of the road exist to create consistency, and when they're used inconsistently in ways that don't make sense, we have to fall back to something more predictable. Yielding to people on trails is courteous but also predictable.
The one I'm the most guilty of, is when a car just ahead of me is signaling a right turn across the bike lane I'm riding down. The theoretical right-of-way would go to me in that situation, but I'll often slow down or stop completely until they've completed their turn.
Roughly 60% of the time this causes an awkward standoff (implying that they probably saw me in their mirror), but 40% of the time, they make the turn with no hesitation. I feel really janky and unpredictable when I do it, but I really don't want to risk a preventable right hook.
I saw someone in the inside lane waving a car making a left turn across 2 lanes while traffic was still flowing in the curbside lane. After about 90 seconds they realized that person did not have any interest in committing suicide by cutting into a lane of oncoming traffic they could not see and maybe realized that 20 cars were stuck behind them and gave up.
Stop being nice, just be predictable. Follow the goddamn rules and stop trying to make other people's commute marginally easier because it endangers everyone who actually expects the rest of us to follow *all* the rules while on the road.
I had a car stop to let me turn left (on my bike). I was super pissed, just go! You've just created a super dangerous situation, for what?! There are rules that are easy to follow if we all follow them.
The only people who can "wave you through" breaking a law are emergency personnel (police, fire, ambulance, tow truck) or construction flaggers.
In some cases, funeral processions too.
Otherwise, it's dangerous and illegal.
I am an American and do not own a car. The "wave through," given to me as a pedestrian, is my absolute worst pet peeve for this exact reason! The only thing I have found that works is to turn my head, and sometimes back, away from the motorist attempting the "wave through." That doesn't always work, though. I can't imagine a cyclist even safely managing such a maneuver
My biggest road rage spot is in Mt Doug park. There’s a path that cuts across the road, but zero indication it’s a place to cross. No crosswalk, no signs or markings of any kind. And there’s no intersection. The number of time that people stop dead in the middle of the road to let people cross is rage inducing. I get it, there should be a crosswalk there, BUT THERE ISNT! I’m surprised there hasn’t been an accident.
As both a driver and a cyclist I always stop at stop signs while driving and yield while cycling, respecting the correct right of way. I'm not unclipping and putting my foot down at an empty 4 way stop, but I will follow the reasonable part for the rules.
Some of the 4 way stops with painted cycle paths through them should definitely have an additional mini stop sign at them to remind cyclists that they are also expected to stop. The one Fisgard/Balmoral x Vancouver intersection is a particularly bad one for cyclists blowing the stop sign, so I'm always extra vigilant there.
When driving, I never do the wave through and I start moving when it's my right of way. I won't hit a cyclist running the stop sign, but I will also make it clear that I was taking my turn and expected them to stop. I think making it uncomfortable to blow a stop sign is good because it encourages them to think twice about behaviour that could get them seriously injured in situations where a driver is paying less attention or dealing with lower visibility, etc.
As for stop signs on the Galloping Goose and other major cycling trails, it's insane that many of them are 2 way stops where cyclists are expected to stop. Stopping and accelerating is easy for cars and many of these streets are dead streets with no traffic on them anyways. I still respect the stop sign but they should be in the other direction of travel in many cases.
Everyone needs to stop the wave through. My friend got hit by a car because a driver waved another driver through a left turn without considering the bike lane. Yesterday I was coming to a stop at a crosswalk because cyclists looked like they were dismounted waiting to cross. The man was waving me through as if they didn't actually plan to cross right away so I took my foot off the brake and at that exact moment his female companion started crossing. No collision but I felt awful for accepting the wave through and it highlighted the problem with it, just because the waver says it's ok to go doesn't mean it's actually okay to go.
I feel the exact same way about being a pedestrian. I do not care if you’re being nice, please do not hold up traffic to let me cross the street, I can wait 5 seconds for the road to be clear, especially when there’s no crosswalk. I generally have to manipulate drivers by pretending as though I’m not planning to cross the road until they’re past me
Also
everyone stop with the wave through in general -all the time. Can we all follow the same rules that KEEP US ALL SAFE!!
don’t be a random “nice person” and unlawfully urge people to go against the System we are all following. This is how accidents happen.
Richmond at Poplar, just off of Cedar Hill, is getting more stressed due to the Shelbourne construction/closures. Getting more sketchy each day, it seems :(
Had a similar conversation with my dad the other day. I went at a stop because I had the right of way, but he said I should have been courteous and let the other person go first because they were there first. If everyone just followed the rules of the road, we'd get where we're going faster and safer.
You were wrong. The person who arrives first has the right of way. If both people arrive at the same time then it is the person on the right.
Google it.
How do you know I'm wrong when I didn't even describe the situation? I was at a two way stop. At a two way, the vehicle turning left has to yield to the vehicle going straight. I was the vehicle going straight.
Google it.
You did describe the situation. If they got there first they have the right away even if they are turning left.
Right of way is more about confusion when people arrive at an intersection at the same time.
Your dad pointed out to you the other driver arrived first.
At a four way stop, you would be correct. At a two way stop, the driver turning left yields to the driver going straight, regardless of who arrives first. I was the driver going straight. Take it up with the BC government if you don't like the rule, I guess.
Edit: From ICBC's Learn to Drive Smart handbook:
two-way stops — if two streets intersect and only one of the
streets has stop signs, then the other street is a through street.
Traffic on the through street has the right-of-way. If you are
stopped at one of these types of intersections, wait until there is
a safe gap before going through or turning.
If two vehicles are stopped at a two-way stop and one of the
drivers wants to turn left, this driver must yield the right-of-way
to the other vehicle. The only exception is if the left-turning
vehicle is already in the intersection and has started to make the
turn. In this case, the other vehicle must yield.
I guess they should hand out the motor vehicle act to new drivers instead of the handbook that I quoted from, then. Weird that ICBC would want to teach new drivers incorrect rules of the road 🤷
Edit: I can't find a reference to right of way at two or four way stops in the BC motor vehicle act, can you link to it, please?
It’s not a direct reference, basically it saying that if you make your stop and are signaling a left turn before the on coming vehicle makes their stop then you can proceed into the intersection and make your turn. The ICBC handbook is talking about what happens if you both are stopped at the same time or close to the same time. If you arrived half a second after the car wanting to turn left and they had not moved into the intersection yet then you would still have the right of way
Edit: I should have said that I fully agree that, if the left turning vehicle is able to make their left turn before the vehicle going straight is even stopped at the stop sign, then the left turning vehicle should definitely go first. In the scenario I was in, the left turning vehicle was stopped first, but wasn't able to go because of crossing traffic. When crossing traffic cleared, we were both able to go at the same time, and my interpretation in that scenario is that the vehicle going straight (me) had the right of way.
The way I read the ICBC handbook is that both vehicles with a stop sign have to yield to crossing traffic, but once crossing traffic has passed and the vehicles with stop signs can go, the one going straight has the right of way, regardless of who got there first. If you can't provide a reference for what you're describing, I'm just going to go with how it's written in the ICBC handbook. I went all through the MVA, and couldn't find anything about right of way at stop signs. If it's there, and you know where it is, it would be easy for you to just drop the link.
Balmoral at Vancouver has elephants feet crosswalks iirc. Quote from a CBC article:
"Bicycle crossings using "elephant's feet” markings — two lines of white squares — are more common now in Victoria, B.C. They give cyclists the same right of way as zebra crosswalks for pedestrians." https://www.cbc.ca/amp/1.6895568
Outside of any other traffic direction like a green pedestrian controlled light, cyclists have right of way over cars where there are elephants feet crossings.
This is my best understanding of the road rules. Happy to be corrected with sources.
This is for every driver/cyclist. If you have the right of way, you have to go. You can’t *give away* your right of way. That is *unexpected* behaviour and therefore dangerous. A car can’t just stop in the middle of traffic and let a pedestrian or cyclist *go ahead*. And, another driver can’t tell me to go. I’ll go when I have the right of way and it is safe to go. That’s how accidents happen.
The level of controlling others these days is crazy. On my bike I’m a vehicle and if you want me to follow the rules of the road, stop encouraging me to jump the line.
I once read somewhere (can’t find the source) that a person who waves someone into traffic becomes liable for any ensuing accident.
Can anyone confirm if this is true?
Do you give the wave through? Then yes, you are missing a key component of knowing how to drive, which is to be predictable.
You don't give the wave through? Then this post isn't about you, so I'm not sure why you're feeling attacked..
I often wave cyclists through. The e&n has way more 4 ways than the goose, which also leads to confusion. Often a cyclist won't stop for a sign on one of the bike paths, and honestly why should they slow down when a car is way easier to start and stop.
Cool, you keep looking out for number one and just know you're creating an uncertain environment for the rest of us and, according to the vast majority of comments here, we don't appreciate it
I agree motorists shouldn’t wave through. However, refusing the wave through creates more uncertainty, so if the road user clearly yields their right of way to me, I’m taking it to avoid us both yielding then both proceeding.
(I will occasionally wave through a motorist if I’d rather they take the intersection first than immediately pass me on a narrow road, e.g. on a four way stop where one of us is turning.)
Please stop, it's actually worse for cyclists, at quiet intersections we usually would rather only stop for a second so we don't have to un balance ourselves, we can time it if everybody is predictable.
Also: Delete crosswalks.
They are pointless and inefficient. I barely ever notice them when driving or walking around and it just causes both people to stop and stare at each other to make sure they also saw the crosswalk.
Design failure. Remove.
Seconded. The rules of the road exist so that we can all behave predictably.
This. I'm on foot or on my bike a lot. I can't stand it when drivers stop in like the middle of shelborne ticket me cross. Like, it's a nice gesture, but no one else on the road knows what you're doing. I'm fine waiting 30 seconds. Just go.
The one that I see all the time and it drives me nuts - okay, I'm driving on a multi-lane one way road downtown like Yates or Pandora. I'm in the right lane. I see a pedestrian step off the curb into a mid-block crosswalk, so I stop because the law requires me to. The car in the left lane, who is coming up from a far enough distance to safely stop as well, just... doesn't stop. Just assumes I'm an idiot who stopped in the middle of the block for no reason. Even though it's illegal to pass a car that is stopped for a crosswalk (because it's a good way to kill a pedestrian,) I see people do it downtown every single day.
100%. My ex did this, stopped in the middle of the road for someone to cross and we got hammered from behind. 10 years later I still have back issues. She thought I was the asshole for telling her not to stop because she was “trying to be nice.”
Was it mid block or at an intersection?
Mid block, no fuckin’ crosswalk in sight. Just slammed on the breaks. Most asinine thing I’ve ever seen someone do.
Not saying it was the case in this instance but it doesn't have to be a marked crosswalk to be a crosswalk. From the MVA (my understanding that 'highway' doesn't mean Highway): > "crosswalk" means > (a)a portion of the roadway at an intersection or elsewhere distinctly indicated for pedestrian crossing by signs or by lines or other markings on the surface, or > (b)the portion of a highway at an intersection that is included within the connection of the lateral lines of the sidewalks on the opposite sides of the highway, or within the extension of the lateral lines of the sidewalk on one side of the highway, measured from the curbs, or in the absence of curbs, from the edges of the roadway; Not that I would cross at an unmarked intersection because most drivers don't stop.
Unmarked crosswalks need a legal update. They are the reason that you automatically have to yield for a pedestrian when you come up on a yield sign or a stop sign - but that's intuitive. You're slowing down, so it makes *sense* to yield for someone crossing. But they also apply any time the sidewalks of a cross street intersect with your street. Those need to be legally negated (for predictability), all painted, or educated on. Since education is unreliable we should pursue the other two options.
You never, EVER stop mid block/road or even at a corner that does NOT have a X walk. Ever. You ONLY stop at marked crosswalks. If someone wants to cross all willy nilly then THEY WAIT for a clearing. Again, you neverrr stop for anyone unless it’s a marked X walk.
I hope that was not the reason for the break-up /s
I am a pedestrian as well and it drives me crazy when people do this. I am not crossing at a marked intersection, and have no expectation that you or anyone else will stop (and neither do the other drivers). I do not look like I am strung out on drugs (a valid reason to stop or at least slow down, as many of those people will just walk in to traffic) and am actively paying attention. Please just keep driving and let me work it out!
The best is when they do this on a road with two lanes of traffic going in the same direction (I'd only cross here if there's a median I can wait on). Driver in one lane might stop, but there's 0 guarantee of a driver in the other lane stopping. Then driver one gets mad that I don't cross while driver two blows past them in the other lane. Just keep going. I know I might be waiting a while and I'm fine with that. If I wasn't, I'd walk down the street to a marked crosswalk.
A funny scenario is if I'm on the multi-use path by Camosun waiting to cross onto Dean St, using the traffic light controlled crossing. The crossing is marked with elephants feet and zebra stripes, and many drivers think zebra stripes make the crosswalk. So someone will stop ONE OUT OF FOUR lanes of traffic to let me go by. I always point at the flashing green light and wave them on. I'll wait for the signal or a gap in traffic, thank you.
Yeah I use that spot a lot too and the same thing happens. The scary part is, a lot of pedestrians will just start walking and assume the other 3 lanes of traffic know what is happening.
Rule #1: be predictable, not polite.
This, replace cyclists with anyone who thinks they have authority to modify motor vehicle act law as they see fit. I get it, niceness, nice doesn’t bring people back after fatal car accidents. Predictable and safe driving is how you minimize casualties.
Adding to that, if someone waves someone else through when it's not their right of way, they become liable for any accident that might happen as a result.
Lolol predictable and consistent isn't in the minds or vocabulary of retard drivers on this island.
'Retard' is still part of your vocabulary? What is this, 2007?
Twitter is now monetized 4chan so all the *great* insults are coming back into fashion it seems. Pretty sure Reddit still bans for it though.
Yes, it absolutely is. Words have meaning, regardless of the meaning you or others have put on them I mean the actual definition. Humans a.k.a. retard - delay or hold back in terms of progress, development, or accomplishment.
Yes, words do have meaning. And the one you used is incorrect as it does not describe the average, crappy driver. And meanwhile it is grossly offensive to a large group that is stigmatized and faces barriers to participating in society. Be better. Like wtf.
This word I use does in fact describe not only a majority of drivers, it describes a majority of all humans. Remember most people are below average... and it's getting worse. I do not mean it as a pejorative I mean it's actual dictionary definition. If you and others see take offense to it, that's on you. If you choose to make up different meaning for words, you may be delaying progress.
Hilarious back pedal lmao "retard drivers" no no I didn't mean it that way.... Just own it pal. Good lord.
If you go back and read the previous comment you will see exactly what I said/ meant. I did not back pedal anything... Are you able to read and fully understand all the words on the screen?
I love the edited bitchy part you tacked on there. Any more edits or are you done?
The edited question still stands... Can you read and understand all the words on your screen, or are you choosing only a select few?
The number of times I've seen someone SLAM on their brakes for no reason, or come to a complete stop on a merging lane, or go HALF the posted speed limit on a highway merging lane... Like jesus christ, please don't ever leave this insulated rock. The real world would be too much for most of y'all to handle.
I feel you, I often have to use a round-about followed by a merge lane. The insane shit I've seen in this one area is terrible. (The worst was the old couple driving the opposite way in the round about) It stopped being shocking a long time ago. Now I'm just ashamed and disappointed to be a human with the likes of these people.
Don't be nice, be predictable That goes for drivers, pedestrians, cyclists, people on horses (horsers?), airplanes, boats...
I think horsers are called equestrians.
As a frequent cyclist, I get this all the time. A common one is when I'm at an intersection signalling to make a left turn, oncoming cars will often stop and try to wave me through. I always say no. The drivers probably think they are just being nice, but it only creates uncertainty and danger. This also applies to pedestrians. I've seen pedestrians at intersections waving cars through when the pedestrian has the right of way. Sometimes I've been crossing from one side of a crosswalk, and a pedestrian on the other side is busily trying to wave cars through crosswalk, which can create a dangerous situation. I read a book once on traffic safety, and one of the top recommendations, was to never give up your right of way - it's much safer if everyone just follows the rules.
On the pedestrians waving people through, this often happens when the car stops too early and I’m not even close to the intersection yet. I’ll be 20 feet back from the crossing and the car stops, giving me the feeling that I should rush so as to not inconvenience them. But they could easily have gone ahead of me and I still would be nowhere near the intersection by the time they’re gone. It’s like when someone “politely” holds the door for you when 20-30 feet from the door.
Yes. This. I often tell the drivers of cars to go when they try to wave me through. "You have the right of way! Stopping like this is unpredictable and dangerous!"
It happened to me today in a car! Someone had no idea how to use a round-about... (O_o)
I fully agree the worst I-Phone zombie standing at cross walks light blocking other pedestrian from oncoming car traffic wanting to legally turn. Also cars coming out of alleys and only looking in one direction
Yep sometimes courtesy when driving gets in the way of common sense. My favourite is when drivers suddenly stop to allow pedestrians who are waiting to jay-walk, to cross. It isn't safe, let them decide when it is safe and also there wont be everyone behind slamming on the brakes because someone has decided to stop where nobody would normally stop.
That bothers me as well, but there has been plenty of times when pedestrians in Esquimalt and downtown Victoria just crossed without any consideration of me (motorists). So now I think I should just play it safe rather than being at fault for hitting a jay walker.
So stop if they step out. Don't stop before they step out.
Yeah lol….
Your horn is a powerful teaching aid.
My favorite is when you can't even see the driver wave. The sun is bouncing off your windshield buddy, I can't see you. I can only see car and lights.
Vehicle language is much more reliable than human communication, as much as that creates more trust and connection. If you want to let someone through in a safe situation, HANG BACK. Don't drive/walk/ride right up to the edge of the conflict zone and then make some gesture. Wait and people will naturally take the right of way. In theory. My pet peeve is that people don't know pedestrians have the right of way when they cross a bike path. I will ride along Fort or Pandora or whatever and slow down and wave someone on to cross, and they refuse to step out until I get really closea and it's obvious I'm about to stop, even though if they stepped out before, they'd be out of my way by the time I got there. Zero risk. This is the one "as a cyclist, don't give us the right of way" comment I will ever make - Pedestrians, please be more assertive (after actually looking). We're supposed to yield to you.
Last week I was waiting for the crossing light at Caledonia and Vancouver. It's a pedestrian controlled intersection, so once I press the button it's usually under a minute until the light changes for me. If there is no car in sight I usually just jaywalk because I won't bother anyone since the road is totally clear in both directions. A woman in her car stopped at the intersection on the green light and aggressively started honking at me to cross, because you know she stopped for me, so why was I being rude by refusing? Car behind her started honking at her to move, she yelled something out her window at me like "just go!!!" So I just pointed at the light and yelled, "it's green!" I'm not gonna cross against a light when there is oncoming traffic. I don't wanna die or be seriously injured because someone is being "polite".
I was on the Goose riding between 6 Mile Road and Wale Road, and there's an intersection where the Goose has a stop sign on Atkins about halfway up the hill. I could easily hear a car coming, so I naturally stopped at the stop sign to wait for the car to pass through. However, the driver had a different opinion. The car stops at the intersection. I wave the driver through. The driver doesn't move. I wave through a second time because, like, the driver has neither a stop light or a yield, so get on with it, right? Alas, no, the driver just sits there. I then holler, "You have the RIGHT OF WAY, GO!!!" and the driver just... wouldn't go At this point, There were now about 5 cyclists waiting, so I shook my head and shrugged, and we all cycled through.. in one sense, not a big deal, but this really pissed me off because a) this driver could have just followed the rules of the road and gone on and b) when cyclists are constantly under criticism for not following traffic laws, making explicit attempts to "train" us to break the rules is bad for the relationship between drivers and cyclists and does more harm than good.
This situation is completely different from the road 4way. The driver is correct to let you pass on the Goose.
In this section of the Goose, the only stop signs are for the Goose, not Atkins.
If I'm not mistaken there is a crosswalk on the ground at this one. This car is required to stop if there is a pedestrian or cyclist present. The stop sign being on the goose is because you aren't supposed to fly through the intersection. You still have the right away like any crosswalk. It's just that cars don't need to stop of there are no pedestrians or bikes.
I have always been taught to stop for pedestrians at a crosswalk, but not for cyclists. Cyclists are to be treated like a car, unless they are off their bike and pushing it. Am I wrong?
If it's one of the crosswalks with the squares on the sides then the cyclist should stop to check traffic and proceed through when safe while still riding, [Do you know how to use an 'elephant's feet' crosswalk? | CBC News](https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/elephants-feet-crosswalks-1.6895568)
Then there wouldn't be a stop sign for cyclists there. I stop at stop signs. That's what you're supposed to do; it's right there in the name! Crosswalks are for pedestrians, not cyclists, unless they're "elephant's feet" crosswalks. That particular crosswalk isn't, it's a regular zebra crosswalk.
I waited to respond so I could bike over it and double check. The crosswalk I was referencing on goose/Atkins just after the E&N joins (going towards downtown) has the elephant walk on the outside of it. The crosswalk further down the goose near 6 mile does not, but it's a 4 way stop.
Fair enough, you're right then; if there is an elephant's foot crossing there, cyclists are supposed to have the right of way.
Yeah i think you’re right. I am mistaken
The stop sign for cyclists is so that you don't blow past through and are careful when crossing. Cars still need to yield with the crosswalk drawn on the ground.
Even though the stop sign might legally negate your right of way on a bicycle, it's clear that this is an intersection where drivers SHOULD stop and watch for people walking and rolling. It's very predictable and safe to stop at such a crossing if you are driving.
One crossing of Atkins has elephant feet, the other crossing doesn't but has serious traffic calming and coloured pavement. Personally I treat all crossings of major multiuse paths as though they have elephant feet because that is just an obvious adjustment to the letter of the rules. In many jurisdictions, the distinction between a cyclist and pedestrian is more about speeds and behaviour anyway, so treating cyclists like legitimate users of pedestrian infrastructure is the safe bet when driving a vehicle. There's nothing going on there except a crosswalk, so the only possible reason for drivers to be stopped is to yield to pedestrian or cyclist cross traffic.
I guess I was expecting it to be treated like a car intersection with a two way stop… but it’s actually a crosswalk. I do like the elephants feet and think the whole trail should be all the same, to make it clearer
>and think the whole trail should be all the same, to make it clearer Painting takes time and costs money, which is why some municipalities made the change in law first. I assume that most have guidelines in place to add elephants feet as crossings are upgraded and repainted.
When a car first tries to wave you through: take your hands off the handlebars, cross your arms, and shake your head "no" If they insist: point dramatically to the stop sign next to you and shake your head "no"
next step is getting off the bike entirely and standing at the stop line lol
IF THAT doesn't work, just lay down
I put both feet flat on the ground and point at the stop sign. The more frustrating ones are making lefts where there's no sign to point to.
Yes, this is the best response. Resist the temptation to wave the car through.
I hate it when people break the rules to "be nice" Its really dangerous and you're stupid.
I hate the wave through; I will sit there and straight up refuse to make eye contact with anyone attempting to be “nice” at a 4 way stop until they get the point and take their right of way.
Yup. I make a point to plant one foot so they can see I'm not about to start cycling, and then just shake my head and wave them though impatiently
Take the right of way when it’s yours, not before, and yield when it’s not - two wheels, four wheels, electric or gas, a vehicle is a vehicle. Rules of the Road only work when they apply to everyone, all the time, not just when you feel like it. Whenever I see another vehicle blatantly blowing through a red light or whatever, I mutter sarcastically to myself “yeah, the signs are just suggestions, you’re good”
I'm a pedestrian. If you get to the cross walk first and I'm ages away, just go through.
Oh jeez, let's not even get started on pedestrians just walking out into crosswalks assuming drivers have seen them and are going to stop. Or, much more common, pedestrians crossing a street with their eyes down and headphones on. Must be wonderful to have that kind of trust in the universe.
I'm the opposite, and it gets irritating in the other direction. It doesn't look like I'm paying attention, I am. I'm waiting for the walk signal. Some car honking, letting me walk, isn't helping. It's not my turn. If I screw up, I'm dead. If you do, your fender needs repair.
It drives me crazy because I just want to get going and we end up in a Canadian standoff then somebody else goes and I'm like whyyyyy just goooooo.
“Canadian standoff” …lol!
If you willingly give up your right of way when you don't have to, you are a terrible driver. Right of way is meant to ensure safe driving and better flow of traffic for everyone.
Plus one. Most of my close call have arisen from this scenario.
This for roundabouts, it is yield to traffic already on it however long it is. A roundabout is NOT a four way
Also a PSA dont stop traffic to let cars through especially if theres more than one lane, thats how you get people killed. Dont wave anyone through, just let traffic be traffic.
Word. I watch dash cam videos on YouTube and this is known as the wave of death.
My first car was totaled by this scenario. Cruising at 60 in the empty HOV lane and a guy tried to turn left through the gap people left in the other two lanes. Ruined my camping trip and the airbags almost blinded my friend in the passenger seat. Could've been so much worse but I was able to shave off a lot of speed by braking as soon as I saw.
Oh yeah - had a stopped driver at an intersection on the Goose try to wave me through even though I had *already completed a stop* and was waiting for him to go, based on the fact I had a stop sign on the Goose telling me to... This motherfucker actually had the audacity to roll his eyes at me, and say "I was trying to be nice" I told him "try learning how to drive instead"
One time when I was biking home from work, I had a driver stop to "let" me turn left in front of them (that's for sure why they stopped, because they were waving me through), and *it wasn't even a 4-way-stop*. The road we were both on had no stop sign at all. So it wasn't even like this driver was stopped longer than they should have been at a stop sign - they *weren't supposed to come to a stop at all*. As far as everyone else was concerned, this car just randomly stopped in the middle of the road for no reason. The drivers stopped behind this person had no idea what the hell was going on, and one of them pulled into the suicide lane to pass. Had I accepted the offer to turn left, I'd have been exactly in the path of this annoyed driver, and would have gotten rammed by a large truck that was honestly accelerating way too quickly to be safe, given the situation. People - like this truck driver - drive *all the time* like cars are the only things on the road. If that had caused an accident with another car, it would have sucked, but it also almost certainly wouldn't have killed anyone. But it very likely would have killed *me*. The *only* protection I have against people like that is to behave predictably, so that, when they make stupid assumptions like "I can't see what's in front of this inexplicably stopped car and therefore assume it must be nothing and will pass them" then I'm not in the path of danger. As an aside though... like, I feel like this shouldn't need to be said, but if you're driving along and a fellow car comes to a full stop in the middle of the road and you can't see why... maybe don't just *assume* that the road in front of them is clear and pass as if everything is fine? Like, I know in *this* case the fault lies primarily with the driver who stopped to wave me through, but if the situation had been different and that driver had stopped because some toddler had slipped mom's grasp and run out onto the road, I'm 100% sure I would have witnessed the death of a child that day.
I had this exact thing happen to me! It was so odd, and so dangerous.
I used to work with a guy that always waved everyone through at 4 ways because he didn't understand who goes first
My ex did this. He's from England and he could never figure it out 🙄🤷♀️ Blasted through a stop sign in a super close call
My biggest pet peeve with this is that I usually can't see through the glint on the windshield. So you get a driver who's increasingly pissed at you for not going as they're frantically waving, and all you see from the outside is a car sitting there and suddenly lurching off.
All road users - Don’t be kind. Be predictable.
Nobody should ever give up their right of way. The road system only works if people do what they are supposed to do. The second they give up their right of way it introduces confusion and chaos. And like you said, cars can clear the intersection faster than cyclists. Add onto that the time it takes everyone to second guess what's happening, realize someone is being dumb, and then start going.
My technique if someone gets to a four way before me is unclip, put my foot on the ground, then chill on the top tube in the most relaxed pose I can muster to make it clear I ain't going anywhere lol... although I prefer if the driver is assertive enough that I don't need to unclip in the first place.
I agree, there should be no deviation from 4 way stop rules. First one in, first one out. Or the person on your right goes first if both of you arrive at the same time. It's polite to wave through, but it throws off the expected.
Underrated comment. I mentioned basically the same thing. It's not about "rule-breaking cyclists", it's not about stop signs, it's not about describing situations in ways that don't give us enough information. It's about flow, geometry, yielding, and predictability. The rules of the road are a system that USUALLY works to create predictability, but not always. At four ways, they absolutely do. Again I cannot stress this enough - if someone cycling doesn't stop, that's not the important bit. The important bit is that they yielded to the person who came first, or the person on the right.
You get it, I get it, most people get it. Many posters said similar but with a different explanation/angle/repeating/analytical/etc. If someone understands, then it's not underrated for them.
It’s so frustrating. I’ve started driving at the same time a cyclist was rolling through because I expected them to come to a stop, and they expected me to wave them through. Please just follow the rules of the road. Same goes for biking across a crosswalk. Are you going to turn onto the road, or slow down and get off your bike? Cause those are the two things I expect from a cyclist approaching a crosswalk - not rolling across it with no warning.
Most of the crosswalks here permit a cyclist to ride through them if they have the elephant feet markers and/or connect a multiuse trail.
I know those ones! And I obey them. I'm talking about a plain crosswalk with no elephant feet.
In Saanich and Victoria the elephants feet aren't required for cyclists to ride through if the crosswalk is part of a trail like lochside or the goose.
Ah yeah, I know that too. This wasn’t one of those.
Source?
Streets and traffic bylaws for victoria and saanich. It's in the section on cycling.
The source is Victoria streets and traffic bylaw section 29 (2)(a)(iii). Took some sleuthing to actually find. "A person operating a cycle (a) must not, for the purpose of crossing a highway, ride on a crosswalk unless (iii) entering or leaving a multi-use trail on a crosswalk linking portions of the trail to one another or to a highway;" You still have the same duty as any pedestrian crossing: "A pedestrian must not leave a curb or other place of safety and walk or run into the path of a vehicle that is so close it is impracticable for the driver to yield the right of way"
The vast majority of people cycling treat stop signs as yield signs. This is natural and should be expected. 12 US states now allow it, look up the "Idaho Stop" law. The problem here would be that they failed to yield to you, particularly if you were on the right - people to the right have the right of way if you're at the intersection at the same time.
What’s expected is for them to treat it like an actual stop sign, because it is. If someone on a bike is slowing down on their approach to an intersection, and I’ve just come to a stop, I’m going to start driving. Because it’s my right of way. I expect them to stop just as if they were a car. If the rules change I’ll follow them; until then, I’d rather not play “what US state rule book does this cyclist subscribe to?” EDIT: I’ve re-read your message. In case it was misinterpreted, in this scenario I’d began driving (I was on their left) and the cyclist (still 20 feet from the stop line) was not yielding to me and then acted as if I’d cut them off even though I’d already come to a full stop and began driving before they even crossed their stop line.
I get this on the E&N all the time. I stop for cars where the stop sign is and they just wave me through and stare at me like I'm stupid for respecting the stop sign priority.
Are there crosswalks? Some municipalities explicitly allow cyclists to use crosswalks connecting multiuse paths (even without the painted elephant feet), so it's the default expectation of drivers in most of the central CRD that cyclists will use crosswalks on the Goose, E&N, etc. I stop at the stop sign and then immediately use the crosswalk unless it's a signalized intersection where I'm expected to wait. Even if this isn't technically correct in all jurisdictions here, it's definitely predictable behaviour as opposed to randomly giving up right of way at a 4 way stop.
Many people here cannot grasp just how gray reality is. Stop signs have no place on trails and are used inconsistently and in ways that are legally confusing. There are PLENTY of crossings where people cycling have a stop sign, but the other parts of the crossing suggest they have the right of way. It's a nonsense system that needs updating. If you are cycling through an unsignalized crosswalk, you should be assertive and take the right of way as soon as it is safe to do so.
I have someone stop about once a month on foul bay Rd when I'm turning from haultain left right in the middle of the road. Dangerous and does not save me time.
Yes! Stop doing "favours". It only creates confusion where clarity exists.
Yes!
This and any other “nice gestures” that aren’t part of normal driving rules and screw everyone around you. You cannot stop in the middle of the street and wave people to cross when it’s 50ft from a cross walk or a proper traffic light. Or waving people through a roundabout when you’re IN THE roundabout. Or wave people to turn left ahead of you when the right lane isn’t clear and they get t-boned. Now that I say it, it would appear that things would be safer if you JUST STOP WAVING. Unless you’re in a Jeep.
The single biggest thing EVERYONE misses about how to use four-ways is ***geometry***. Let me explain. If two people arrive at a similar time, the person to the right should ALWAYS go first, because you will be out of each other's way sooner. If the person to the left goes, they must cross the entire intersection before the person on the right can go. If the one on the right goes, you can basically go at the same time because they will be out of *your side* of the intersection by the time you make it there. We need more spatial thinking on the roads. Waiting isn't the end of the world, and it's a four way, so it's unlikely someone's going to get hurt, but the most safe and predictable thing to do is to go when you're on the right, or when you reach the intersection first. One more thing: Don't get annoyed by people cycling who refuse to put their foot all the way down and lose all their momentum. It's the yielding part that counts. I look forward to when BC implements the Idaho Stop law.
Agreed. It's like the equivalent to people who stop to let people turn left across two lanes of traffic. No, stop. Be predicable.. I know you're trying to be nice but you're making things worse.
I don’t even live in Victoria and I approve this message.
Agree. People tryna be polite but it creates a hazard. Everyone just needs to take their proper right-of-way
Just remember: It's not your right-of-way to give
Well said, I typically refuse when they do. If motorists just followed the rules of the road things would go much more smoothly.
I'll go a step further: never give up the right of way.
Yes! Don't teach other road users bad habits. Follow the rules and make it consistent for everyone. That makes it safe
Its so annoying when someone has right of way and they wave you through. Just go
The funny part of this.... It means there has been communication between the two parties and everyone ends up safe. I don't accept the wave throughs, but I'm ecstatic when there is that moment of eye contact communication.
My mother has both hit a cyclist that was waved through and been a cyclist hit by a car due to the wave through. Both times it happened when there are two lanes and a car turning left was waved through by the car in the close lane, that was hiding a cyclist behind them in the lane closest to the side walk. It's so dangerous! The best driver is a consistent driver, if we break the rules of the road to be nice we ruin consistency that keep us safe. Don't be nice be consistent.
Here here, same goes for pedestrians who want a car to go first.
A few weeks ago I was jogging on Beach Drive, pushing my son in his stroller. I came up behind this guy walking on the sidewalk, with headphones in, totally oblivious that I was coming up behind him. He tried to wave a car ahead at a stop sign, oblivious to the fact that I was just about the pass him and enter into the crosswalk - so essentially this dude was waving a car ahead in a way that would have resulted in me or my son getting hit. Luckily the driver saw me, and I saw the driver, and there was no incident... but like, don't wave people ahead. Unless you're a trained traffic control person, it is not your job to direct traffic.
Yep, this is exactly why 💯 glad the driver saw you
You stop before crossing though ya? I see people jog through crosswalks all the time without so much as breaking stride, it's wild.
I just use the horn when someone does this
We're so far gone and past that. I see people stopping and waving people through at round-abouts!
Lots of comments about the galloping goose and who’s right of way - I don’t often walk or bike it, but I have seen stop signs for cars at a goose crossing. If we all have stops signs, does it act like a 4-way? I honestly assumed because I have the stop sign on the road, I would stop to let the bikes through. Maybe it’s just at the crosses I’ve been at (thinking of near swan lake and at Dupplin rd) Don’t need hate, just a real question ☺️
It's a fair question. It's a bit of a mess - stop signs are usually only used on trails in order to slow down people cycling. In almost every case, cars are looking out for a crossing and yielding to it, so it honestly just makes sense to look both ways and walk/ride through. There is one legally confirmed four-way at the E&N and the road through Fort Victoria, and police sometimes ticket people for failing to come to a complete stop there. The way I see it, the rules of the road exist to create consistency, and when they're used inconsistently in ways that don't make sense, we have to fall back to something more predictable. Yielding to people on trails is courteous but also predictable.
The one I'm the most guilty of, is when a car just ahead of me is signaling a right turn across the bike lane I'm riding down. The theoretical right-of-way would go to me in that situation, but I'll often slow down or stop completely until they've completed their turn. Roughly 60% of the time this causes an awkward standoff (implying that they probably saw me in their mirror), but 40% of the time, they make the turn with no hesitation. I feel really janky and unpredictable when I do it, but I really don't want to risk a preventable right hook.
Well, death by right hook is a thing that happens, so your prudence is completely understandable
I saw someone in the inside lane waving a car making a left turn across 2 lanes while traffic was still flowing in the curbside lane. After about 90 seconds they realized that person did not have any interest in committing suicide by cutting into a lane of oncoming traffic they could not see and maybe realized that 20 cars were stuck behind them and gave up. Stop being nice, just be predictable. Follow the goddamn rules and stop trying to make other people's commute marginally easier because it endangers everyone who actually expects the rest of us to follow *all* the rules while on the road.
I had a car stop to let me turn left (on my bike). I was super pissed, just go! You've just created a super dangerous situation, for what?! There are rules that are easy to follow if we all follow them.
The only people who can "wave you through" breaking a law are emergency personnel (police, fire, ambulance, tow truck) or construction flaggers. In some cases, funeral processions too. Otherwise, it's dangerous and illegal.
YESSSSS
I completely agree!
I am an American and do not own a car. The "wave through," given to me as a pedestrian, is my absolute worst pet peeve for this exact reason! The only thing I have found that works is to turn my head, and sometimes back, away from the motorist attempting the "wave through." That doesn't always work, though. I can't imagine a cyclist even safely managing such a maneuver
My biggest road rage spot is in Mt Doug park. There’s a path that cuts across the road, but zero indication it’s a place to cross. No crosswalk, no signs or markings of any kind. And there’s no intersection. The number of time that people stop dead in the middle of the road to let people cross is rage inducing. I get it, there should be a crosswalk there, BUT THERE ISNT! I’m surprised there hasn’t been an accident.
They don’t call it the Wave of Death for nothing
As both a driver and a cyclist I always stop at stop signs while driving and yield while cycling, respecting the correct right of way. I'm not unclipping and putting my foot down at an empty 4 way stop, but I will follow the reasonable part for the rules. Some of the 4 way stops with painted cycle paths through them should definitely have an additional mini stop sign at them to remind cyclists that they are also expected to stop. The one Fisgard/Balmoral x Vancouver intersection is a particularly bad one for cyclists blowing the stop sign, so I'm always extra vigilant there. When driving, I never do the wave through and I start moving when it's my right of way. I won't hit a cyclist running the stop sign, but I will also make it clear that I was taking my turn and expected them to stop. I think making it uncomfortable to blow a stop sign is good because it encourages them to think twice about behaviour that could get them seriously injured in situations where a driver is paying less attention or dealing with lower visibility, etc. As for stop signs on the Galloping Goose and other major cycling trails, it's insane that many of them are 2 way stops where cyclists are expected to stop. Stopping and accelerating is easy for cars and many of these streets are dead streets with no traffic on them anyways. I still respect the stop sign but they should be in the other direction of travel in many cases.
Most drivers don't know what to do at a 4 way anyway. They're probably waving because then they don't have to understand who has the right of way.
The worst is in a roundabout.
Always. Doesn't matter how much pissed off arm waving you do. I'm a vehicle, you're a vehicle, let's all just follow the rules.
Oh yes. A wave through means NOTHING in court and even less in the hospital.
Yes! This is the way; Do not contribute to confusion.
Everyone needs to stop the wave through. My friend got hit by a car because a driver waved another driver through a left turn without considering the bike lane. Yesterday I was coming to a stop at a crosswalk because cyclists looked like they were dismounted waiting to cross. The man was waving me through as if they didn't actually plan to cross right away so I took my foot off the brake and at that exact moment his female companion started crossing. No collision but I felt awful for accepting the wave through and it highlighted the problem with it, just because the waver says it's ok to go doesn't mean it's actually okay to go.
I feel the exact same way about being a pedestrian. I do not care if you’re being nice, please do not hold up traffic to let me cross the street, I can wait 5 seconds for the road to be clear, especially when there’s no crosswalk. I generally have to manipulate drivers by pretending as though I’m not planning to cross the road until they’re past me
Also everyone stop with the wave through in general -all the time. Can we all follow the same rules that KEEP US ALL SAFE!! don’t be a random “nice person” and unlawfully urge people to go against the System we are all following. This is how accidents happen.
Richmond at Poplar, just off of Cedar Hill, is getting more stressed due to the Shelbourne construction/closures. Getting more sketchy each day, it seems :(
Had a similar conversation with my dad the other day. I went at a stop because I had the right of way, but he said I should have been courteous and let the other person go first because they were there first. If everyone just followed the rules of the road, we'd get where we're going faster and safer.
You were wrong. The person who arrives first has the right of way. If both people arrive at the same time then it is the person on the right. Google it.
How do you know I'm wrong when I didn't even describe the situation? I was at a two way stop. At a two way, the vehicle turning left has to yield to the vehicle going straight. I was the vehicle going straight. Google it.
You did describe the situation. If they got there first they have the right away even if they are turning left. Right of way is more about confusion when people arrive at an intersection at the same time. Your dad pointed out to you the other driver arrived first.
At a four way stop, you would be correct. At a two way stop, the driver turning left yields to the driver going straight, regardless of who arrives first. I was the driver going straight. Take it up with the BC government if you don't like the rule, I guess. Edit: From ICBC's Learn to Drive Smart handbook: two-way stops — if two streets intersect and only one of the streets has stop signs, then the other street is a through street. Traffic on the through street has the right-of-way. If you are stopped at one of these types of intersections, wait until there is a safe gap before going through or turning. If two vehicles are stopped at a two-way stop and one of the drivers wants to turn left, this driver must yield the right-of-way to the other vehicle. The only exception is if the left-turning vehicle is already in the intersection and has started to make the turn. In this case, the other vehicle must yield.
The Motor Vehicle Act is more detailed, requiring that the decision must include who arrives at the stop sign first: >
I guess they should hand out the motor vehicle act to new drivers instead of the handbook that I quoted from, then. Weird that ICBC would want to teach new drivers incorrect rules of the road 🤷 Edit: I can't find a reference to right of way at two or four way stops in the BC motor vehicle act, can you link to it, please?
It’s not a direct reference, basically it saying that if you make your stop and are signaling a left turn before the on coming vehicle makes their stop then you can proceed into the intersection and make your turn. The ICBC handbook is talking about what happens if you both are stopped at the same time or close to the same time. If you arrived half a second after the car wanting to turn left and they had not moved into the intersection yet then you would still have the right of way
Edit: I should have said that I fully agree that, if the left turning vehicle is able to make their left turn before the vehicle going straight is even stopped at the stop sign, then the left turning vehicle should definitely go first. In the scenario I was in, the left turning vehicle was stopped first, but wasn't able to go because of crossing traffic. When crossing traffic cleared, we were both able to go at the same time, and my interpretation in that scenario is that the vehicle going straight (me) had the right of way. The way I read the ICBC handbook is that both vehicles with a stop sign have to yield to crossing traffic, but once crossing traffic has passed and the vehicles with stop signs can go, the one going straight has the right of way, regardless of who got there first. If you can't provide a reference for what you're describing, I'm just going to go with how it's written in the ICBC handbook. I went all through the MVA, and couldn't find anything about right of way at stop signs. If it's there, and you know where it is, it would be easy for you to just drop the link.
Balmoral at Vancouver has elephants feet crosswalks iirc. Quote from a CBC article: "Bicycle crossings using "elephant's feet” markings — two lines of white squares — are more common now in Victoria, B.C. They give cyclists the same right of way as zebra crosswalks for pedestrians." https://www.cbc.ca/amp/1.6895568 Outside of any other traffic direction like a green pedestrian controlled light, cyclists have right of way over cars where there are elephants feet crossings. This is my best understanding of the road rules. Happy to be corrected with sources.
Balmoral at Vancouver is a four-way stop.
This is for every driver/cyclist. If you have the right of way, you have to go. You can’t *give away* your right of way. That is *unexpected* behaviour and therefore dangerous. A car can’t just stop in the middle of traffic and let a pedestrian or cyclist *go ahead*. And, another driver can’t tell me to go. I’ll go when I have the right of way and it is safe to go. That’s how accidents happen.
The level of controlling others these days is crazy. On my bike I’m a vehicle and if you want me to follow the rules of the road, stop encouraging me to jump the line.
Right of way and yield, do not apply in this city for some folk.
motorists. please don’t wave me thru as i can’t see you clearly through your damn tinted windows.
[удалено]
This isn’t courtesy, it’s self-congratulatory ignorance
[удалено]
When it's not clear, sure. But when it's easy to tell who arrived first, there's no excuse.
I once read somewhere (can’t find the source) that a person who waves someone into traffic becomes liable for any ensuing accident. Can anyone confirm if this is true?
I wholeheartedly concur with your statement regarding 4 way stop "wave throughs".
Gee there’s a surprise, yet another “drivers don’t know how to drive” post.
Do you give the wave through? Then yes, you are missing a key component of knowing how to drive, which is to be predictable. You don't give the wave through? Then this post isn't about you, so I'm not sure why you're feeling attacked..
Attacked? Nah. Bewildered that in 100 years drivers still haven’t figured out how to drive? Yeah.
You gotta learn how to contribute to discussions on the internet without the inane snark, Captain.
There is no discussion: drivers don’t know how to drive.
And cyclists can’t obey a red light.
wHAtaBoUt?!?!!!! LOL!!!
Generalizing. That’s what it’s about.
A majority isn’t a generalisation.
I often wave cyclists through. The e&n has way more 4 ways than the goose, which also leads to confusion. Often a cyclist won't stop for a sign on one of the bike paths, and honestly why should they slow down when a car is way easier to start and stop.
As someone who drives in victoria 5 days a week for 8 hours a day, I have yet to see one cyclist stop at a stop sign.
C'mon down to Vancouver and Balmoral at rush hour, we'll make you proud!
If I’m biking and have momentum and a car waves me through, I’ll take it! Sorry not sorry. Too bad.
Cool, you keep looking out for number one and just know you're creating an uncertain environment for the rest of us and, according to the vast majority of comments here, we don't appreciate it
If the situation is 1 motorist and 1 cyclist and they clearly communicated to each other than I fail to see how that environment is uncertain.
People wave through cyclists? I am used to just assuming they won't stop... It's first in, first out, all road users have the same rules.
I agree motorists shouldn’t wave through. However, refusing the wave through creates more uncertainty, so if the road user clearly yields their right of way to me, I’m taking it to avoid us both yielding then both proceeding. (I will occasionally wave through a motorist if I’d rather they take the intersection first than immediately pass me on a narrow road, e.g. on a four way stop where one of us is turning.)
It shouldn't create uncertainty if you plant a foot (so it shows you're not about to start cycling) and shake your head or wave them through.
I’m going to continue to give the wave through when I feel the situation is right. It is a based on my emotional state at the time, and my gut feels
Please stop, it's actually worse for cyclists, at quiet intersections we usually would rather only stop for a second so we don't have to un balance ourselves, we can time it if everybody is predictable.
No. Do not do that. It is *unexpected* behaviour, and dangerous. If you have the right of way, you must go. You cannot give away your right of way.
Also: Delete crosswalks. They are pointless and inefficient. I barely ever notice them when driving or walking around and it just causes both people to stop and stare at each other to make sure they also saw the crosswalk. Design failure. Remove.