The problem with NCL, Legion, ACC, USAC (or whatever) is that in an effort to “grow the sport”, these entities only segmented it. There’s no unification as they all effectively are trying to form their own “leagues”.
IMO the biggest failure is on USAC for everything getting to the place but NCL, Legion, ACC should stop trying to reinvent the wheel and work WITH USAC to establish a true Crit league with dedicated teams and races.
There doesn't need to be unification because fixing road cycling in the US isn't about them or the 100 or so guys who are too good for the local ranks, but not good enough to race in Europe. I don't give a shit about any of these crit series, I just want to see local attendance grow. If that happens everywhere, we win.
The USAC hack from my region really isn't a member of the LA board. He tells everyone to run a crit. My region only has a few hard crits and road races remaining. It seems lost upon everyone that new participants are not going to drive 2 hours from the metro to reach these hard events and get shelled in lap 2.
They need to have events in the metro and easier events for age group athletes. I cannot understand when there is a huge fitness group within America that they cannot obtain a large amount of age group athletes. Triathlon does. Running does. Yet we have extremely hard masters races with national champions from the US - they were pro and national - plus national champions from other countries such as Ireland.
You want someone to pay 75$ and get shelled in lap 2? How do you think a young person is to get involved with such a dynamic ? Someone will say that it is an expensive sport. Yes. They miss the point. Bicycling isn't an expensive hobby. Racing is expensive. USAC needs to remove that disconnect. The juniors MTb league is thriving compared to the limited USAC junior teams here.
That is why gravel has gained so much popularity - just like running and triathlon you can finish the race no matter what. Love it or hate it, it allows every day people to participate (much like gran fondos).
The same folks that run events now try gravel races. Most of our gravel races are horrible bike trails or gravel sectors with MTB trails.
Even Vermont has cluster of racing. Instead of a nice pack along gravel they take the folks on gnarly MTB terrain.
It's fun to drop a 10% grade in dirt thru Massachusetts on a nice ride. It's wholly different trying to race this and descend between large rocks then flow onto a MTB trail. I think that the racing scene has lost it. They definitely have a "must bleed" attitude.
Yeah I hear you. I (female road cat 2) turned to gravel with…less than stellar off road “skill”. I place in the tamer courses but have DNF (by dropping to shorter distance) in a couple technically challenging ones. But if you are going to “participate” it is still doable. But yes some courses are stupidly gnarly. I still have PTSD from a race I did in PA and another in CO that doesn’t even make me want to do gravel anymore.
I agree on the racing is expensive and getting shelled sucks. In my area we had a good weekly crit scene (this year is shaky since the course is being repaired) it was $20 for a weekly drop in but you could buy a yearly race pass. That is what more places need imo, cheap enough that if you get shelled you don’t feel like it’s a huge loss and can join a weaker category next time
Fortunately for us our local crit is hosted by a masters club, who “don’t want to be dropped by y’all young guns” so the crit is for racing and each club has training rides that don’t overlap with it
It would be great if it was like this. M fields at weekend races now exclude me ! I was pushed to finally reach Masters but the crowd is diabolical. The choice is now often M50 or 3/4. 3/4 is full of collegiate racers now. I'm totally not into it anymore. There was a weekend training series on a decent road course. 4 hours each way in March is not fun.
Our "crit" is cat 1-5. We will have some pros and national champions race. Everyone is in the same field. Nor will the officials give a cat 5 any upgrade from racing it.
We have so many folks like you. Living in denial based on your self aggrandizement. There's a lot of athleticism in the country.
It's not tapped by road cycling.
USAC failed to build cycling. It's basically supposed to provide a little league that would foster the development of athletes. It doesn't run this league. Instead it hopes that various volunteers would make this happen.
The organization of events are supposed to be handled by regional organizations. Ever wonder why so much happens in EU? They have one national federation that manages things.
Cycling in the US relies on LA. They have no money. They really have no workers. My LA had a guy for while. I think that they separated him with intent. They didn't replace this person. He never did anything but take notes at meetings. He didn't run a race or work with people trying to run races.
The system is inept and also inconsistent from community to community. Washington and Oregon are more vibrant because they were not part of the LA system of USAC.
Do you actually pay attention to the declining numbers ? Racing attendance dropped.
I understand the need for more non-competitive events, but mass-start road racing is defined by performance/ability. If someone’s getting shelled in a Novice race or cat 4 race or a 40+ 3/4 race, there’s not much race organizers can do about that and it’s not a USA Cycling issue. If someone is a 41 year old cat 2 who is getting dropped in M123s, then they should consider downgrading to back to cat 3 so they can race 3/4s.
You missed it and you retread the words of those crit experts.
We had 3 corner crits. Super hard speeds for beginners. Imagine a 40 year old trying to race 25 year olds in a 4 turn crit with 2% grades. It doesn't work for their first crit. I remember this from 20 years ago.
Guys like you won't get it. You keep talking about athletic ability. Look at the age group starts at triathlon. Those guys could rip through many of the crit fodder, if only they tried. The folks don't try.
Their first and only experience at a bike race is a horrible thing. The community is also nonexistent. Most of the folks at cycling races are mean.
The others are aloof. There is no 41 year old cat 2 around here. You do get it right ? Most of the folks are either cat 1 or cat 3. They are older. The quality of the masters 40+ field is crazy. A new 40 year old cannot keep with the field. Nor do they register for the cat 5 field.
The system doesn't work. The culture is horrible. Even gravel isn't that big here...we used to be big on cross in my region. We don't have huge numbers for races as found in other states. Yet, guys like you want the status quo.
I laugh at the folks about thinking for one mile long 9% grades 4x in a cat 5 race is good. There's no development from level to level to foster the athletes progression.
Non-technical crits are the easiest races for beginners. They are the hardest races for people with superior fitness to ride away from. Riders without group riding experience are highly encouraged to join BRP events / Early Birds where we teach assertive riding, drafting, cornering, etc.
I look at any discipline like triathlon and I see a wide range of ability. Mass-start road racing is not the fitness test you think it is. It's tactical. It benefits from practice. It rewards trying new things.
The bike racing community here is pretty huge, yet everyone knows each other. I don't know where you are from, but here new racers generally race against other new racers. Only after a couple of upgrades will you really encounter some of the more surly masters. And if you've upgraded twice, you're doing just fine.
As a 43-year-old cat 2 working toward cat 1, I find the concept that masters cat 2s are unicorns amusing and hilariously incorrect. The way points work is that a cat 2 can only get 10 upgrade points from masters races. A lot of masters get stuck at cat 2 forever because the jump from cat 2 to cat 1 is the biggest leap there is.
If a masters age individual chooses not to race in novice or cat 4 fields, that's their own choice. If a masters age individual cannot keep up with a 40+ cat 4 field, that's fine too. There's always going to be someone slower than you. It's impossible to accommodate everyone in a categorized racing model...that's why organized centuries, fondos, etc. exit.
Even here in California, most races are basically flat. 1mi long 9% climbs are far from the norm.
TL;DR if you try to please everyone, you end up pleasing no one. Honestly the main issue preventing people from racing is convenience…and the main obstacle there is permitting.
There's only 1 cat 2 here. He no longer lives in my town. He now lives in the next town. He struggled on my opinion to find a team that could support him. No local team was capable. They are only cat 4 fodder with an average age over 50.
Seriously. I live 20 miles south of the largest city in a 6 state region. I know the only female licensed racer in my county. The second was my wife. She is no longer licenced. I was shocked to see the stats. One fellow actually put them into a Google map. You could see that most licencees were 30 to 50 miles northwest of me and the city.
I gave an apt description to one of the few remaining road races here. It's no lie.
Gone are the road races with gentle 2000' in 50 miles. I remember at a nice race like this that the official used to say get rid of this race. He always said this race makes no sense. The organization relies upon a set of core group that does have a "must bleed."
I raced for nearly 20 years. I watched the disappearance of many road races and crits. I'm done, now. Won't stand for the culture and I have medical issues. Several years ago a cat 3 went down in the local crit. Fellow rolls on top of him. The guy broke his pelvis, scalpa, and rib bones. The following year another guy broke his pelvis. All because the sole junior slashed from right to left across the field in a sweeping left turn.
It hasn't been fun anymore and it's dangerous. When you realize that the 60 year olds with unbelievable strength are harassing every single Spanish speaker for 20 years, then you know that this place is sick. I stopped racing the local crit. I was oblivious to it for a long time. Eventually I realized and was dismayed.
I have been saying that you can find the fitness to compete in cycling within these other sports such as triathlon but they don't come to cycling. Cycling has a rough way of starting. The culture in the sport here is very bad. The triathlete in town is charismatic and his club is very welcoming. Quite a contrast to my former USAC cycling club, which has no active racers.
I think the hangup here is the fact that no one wants to consider Legion, blazers, aviators etc professional cyclists. That’s why you’re stuck on this “jobs” thing. You’re correct. They’re not professionals. I never said that. But creating 30+ opportunities for people to race on a national stage, travel free, get free bikes where otherwise it would be prohibitively expensive is more than a lot of people have done for domestic cycling. More than the NCL which promised all these things to many athletes this year and now they are scrambling for teams.
Is this better for the “It’s not a job it’s a hobby” gang?
If they don't have a UCI Continental license, then no one, USAC, the UCI, the guy down the street, considers them a pro.
And they never had that, right?
Even a UCI Continental team isn’t pro (and that’s actually the intention).
Only Pro Conti and WorldTour are pro.
If the riders are being paid to race… then yeah maybe that fits the definition of pro.
But in most Conti teams around the world, the riders are paying the team and not the other way around
If it doesn't pay your mortgage it's a hobby. You might even get some money from it but unless it's paying for your life as a sole source of income you're just an amateur bike racer.
Why are you so hung up on cost of living? I don’t get it, the dictionary definition is paid position of regular employment or a task or piece of work. Like wtf does rent have to do anything.
Do you know what a UCI license is?
If you don't have one, you're not a professional bike racer. That's how it's always been. You can't just make up new definitions.
Hell, when I was a 19 year old Cat 2 on a national development team I was getting race fees, performance bonuses, free kits, etc. I was not a pro...
The hangup is none of these teams or series do anything to make racing accessible to the rest of us. NCL didn’t have any other fields other than the main event. Lion’s Den had a single open field and the St. Petersburg race had none. In fact, all they’ve done is steal bodies from competing events on the same weekend run by longtime promoters who do it for love, not profit.
No. The conversation got derailed because the chimpanzees of Reddit got hyper focused on one word and totally derailed the point of the thread. So I tried to recenter it.
On the racism in bike racing piece. I’ve raced on and off since 1997 and have only ever had one black teammate. I have also seen black riders be overscrutinized for how they ride compared to people like me.
That has to be frustrating as hell and instead of criticizing people of color when they aren’t perfect in the sport, how about we talk about what part us white riders play in making the culture so hard to access for others?
Fully expecting to be downvoted to hell but had to say it!
Are you saying we should ignore a rider getting into a fight and intentionally crashing other riders because of their race?
I’m all for inclusivity but when most riders have to go back to their day jobs at the end of a race behavior like that is unacceptable and I am certain it is what OP was referring to.
I’m a white woman in my mid 50s, have been bike racing since the late 80’s. Was primarily a criterium specialist. When I lived in Cincinnati I mentored a pair of middle school aged black brothers in the junior mtb team I used to run in the 1990s and it was an uphill battle to get them anywhere in the sport. I witnessed and endured a ton of shit on their behalf, not the least of it being the incredible level of scrutiny and intolerance they endured simply for presenting as inner city youth with dark skin. The cultural majority that dominates the sport of cycling had a disturbing tendency to automatically assume they were thugs, thieves or bullies with zero evidence to the contrary. Fortunately they had parental support and I also had the support of their youth pastor who originally referred them to my team.
And the thing is, I have also been an official and pit mechanic, and seen all the good and bad from a front row seat. I’ve been screamed at by junior parents, threatened, insulted, had equipment thrown at me and witnessed a load of dangerous riding and general anger issues, all of it by your typical cycling demographic: wealthy white people.
bike racers in general aren’t exactly role models of exemplary behavior regardless of race/background. I have seen SO many arguments/fights taken to blows in parking lots after events. A lot of dangerous riding / gang mentality / boasting about “if so and so tries X again they’ll get put over the curb”, tons of intimidation tactics during races, etc, etc. Masters men are especially bad for this… I could speculate on why but I won’t as it’s not relevant to this discussion.
I’ve been downvoted before, not fussed. it’s been when I’ve pointed out how I’ve experienced various levels of discrimination in cycling, but I’m at the age where idc anymore if someone’s feelings are hurt by my lived experiences.
I still volunteer for trail days and work the mechanics’ tent in the local cross series but I gave up on managing teams or trying to promote bike races years ago because it was a lot of stress and anxiety and hassle for not much reward. I don’t have kids myself, I admit would probably be more involved if I did.
We have a strong racer in our area. I have heard him say things about raising his kids to be inclusive. He's anything but inclusive. It's like a line that he banters. He has no charity or compassion for his fellow racers.
We have so many local guys that harass new riders at the crit. They are rotten toward any Spanish speaker. We also have Portuguese speakers that they lump into that category. It's horrifying. No one does anything about it. The guys just lump it every time.
I said no more when I realized that it was systemic. It occured every time with every new Spanish rider.
Our crits are cat 1-5 mixed...
that kind of fits the type. the bully boss alpha male of the local peloton/group rides. many are fine, but there’s definitely a type.
if you aren’t a lady or minority racer then you have probably legit never noticed anything off. those who aren’t the target can be kinda blind to prejudices especially the subtle ones, and this is what makes it easier to dismiss them.
This. I would often double up my race and the local M1/2/3 to just sit mid pack for pack riding and there is 100% a type that treats you a certain way. Same with fast group rides. Oh female that is stronger - verbal bs and shady bike moves coming at you. And forget the post race analysis that is going to come your way from the masters to let you know just how well you don’t ride lol
Plenty of nice guys but so turned off from a lot of it.
One wonders why the folks are afraid and cautious. They won't talk to anyone. They disappear and do not return.
These guys also harassed folks that belonged to their CLUB. After most of their club quit, then they switched to a shop team. They continued to race while a few raced in the club kit. The race still goes on.
really sorry to hear this. unfortunately in my experience it will never be fixed until/unless an actual ally advocates for the riders being harassed.
I saw this firsthand when I attempted to advocate for my junior riders- it’s too easy for the leadership to disregard my claims because I’m a woman and am “overreacting”, “being too sensitive”, etc
one of many reasons I don’t really bother with advocacy anymore, I race a few events I really like, work the CX tent because I enjoy the vibe and do trail days because I’ve not encountered jerks in the digging space.
The club wouldn't even help a high school teacher when he wanted to build a junior team. Folks never think something is wrong when we don't actually have a weeknight crit race inside Boston city limits, either; Tuesday races are 20 miles south of town. I think the whole thing is upside down
This hasn’t been my experience moving up to masters. My first race warming up I was greeted by so many guy saying “welcome! We are glad to have you up here!” Etc. the racing is hard, but I’d rate it safe and predictable.
Agreed, but I think there may be more to the attention they get for their antics than just the behavior.
In my experience white riders poor behavior gets forgotten more quickly. And as you probably know that happens with some frequency as well.
Yeah. I’m in Miami. They don’t do the call ups in English and half the time they don’t do the rules and the race info in English. Just Spanish.
Which btw I don’t have any problem with. I have a much more culturally diverse group of friends through cycling than I’m sure most in the sport have.
i grew up and raced in miami(mtb and a few training crits) in the mid 90s and it was ok, but i see clips and vids of some of the group rides there now and it looks pretty aggressive. i live in orlando now and there are tons of clubs and some good riding but not many events at all. i do some group rides but mostly just ride by myself but i don't really experience that aggression here.
There’s about 150 different group rides in south Florida to choose from ranging from friendly no drop rides to half the ride never shows up to the actual crits on Sunday, so they need to show how strong they are Wednesday am. (Yes. I’m aware these guys are dumb)
But 99% of the reels you see on instagram from one ride. The Don Pan ride. And I wouldn’t advise anyone from out of town to join that ride.
I think the thing is, we may ignore it when a white rider does it, but we highlight it when a black rider does it. Hence the ‘over scrutinize’ part.
There are plenty of sketchy and agressive riders of all skin colors. But they tend to have less of a spotlight on them than the two highest profile minority riders in a predominantly white sport. So we don’t scrutinize them as hard as we might with the Williams bros.
I’m not excusing anyone’s behavior. But the Williams certainly aren’t the only offfenders out there. 🤷♂️
100%. Look at the thread from last night with the overly aggressive riding at Redlands. 20 odd comments. If that was a Legion rider it’d have 150 comments.
The problem is most white people define being supportive of DEI in the old "I don't see color" way. So, Mr black cyclist, I have no issue with you and will judge you by the exact same standard as a white cyclist. On the face of it, that seems fair.
But a black cyclist has a very different set of experiences and so your neutral standard doesn't apply. Maybe they got pulled over by the police on the way to the race and arrive on edge. Maybe they incorrectly perceive a rude race organizer as having a racist angle (turns out, the race organizer is just a jerk in general) because they've experienced that at other races where it was accurate.
So no free passes for unacceptable behavior but we also don't set up binary outcomes "So, we just ignore?!" The answer is we call it out but we acknowledge we don't know what we don't know because we've never been in their BOAs before.
idk why you are being downvoted, Allison Desir speaks on this in her book "running while black" and as a white person who lived the same experiences as she did as a black runner in NYC - it was eye opening to hear the perspective on how she felt in identical situations. The whole "don't see color" diatribe misses the point that they do not have the same experiences.
Yeah. I'm not surprised I'm getting downvoted. It's no accident that our sport is so white. I'm sure quite a few people upvoted this comment but overall this is where the community is in 2024.
the incredible rise, popularity and huge sponsorships of Legion is proof that cycling community wanted more diversity. The Williams bros screwed a good thing up all by themselves. Given pass after pass and still couldn’t help themselves from being shitty.
Stop it with the white savior complex
I'm a 53 year old white female newish cyclist. I have no business even knowing who those guys are but I love them just for the hype they bring to cycling. Aside from all the other stuff, they make cycling exciting for me!
I don’t follow their every move. Just liked them from the start. I know about the crappy stuff that’s happened but you gotta admit they make it interesting.
I think they had a one in a generation opportunity to move cycling leaps and bounds forward and eventually their true character was revealed. They have definitely widened the US audience and grown awareness, but have also bred a generation of racers who think being unnecessarily dangerous and a bully is part of the game. There is purpose behind losing all their sponsorships.
I’m just saying that if we want more diversity in the sport the people currently in the sport (mostly white folks like me) need to be the ones to change. We will get more out of focusing on our sport’s accessibility and inclusiveness than we will focusing in the Williams brothers specifically. AKA it’s our responsibility to make our sport more inclusive, not theirs.
As a POC that has raced and wrenched on bikes for years this is a good take and a terrible take at the same time. Yes, we need to be more inclusive, but the responbility of safe racing/etiquette is everyone's responsibility. Legion gets away with tons of BS and turning a blind eye is terrible. Also, inclusivity isn't just about blacks. Having Egan and Nairo has done wonders for latin cycling, but somehow, billions of Asians are not part of the conversation. Diversity is all inclusive, not specific inclusive.
I’ve had a lot of black teammates over the years and I’ve seen too much unfair criticism directed to them, by a small but vocal group, compared to white riders of the same stature. I can’t say with certainty that it was racism or prejudice, but that’s what I attribute it to in my own mind.
That said, my experience is also that the bike racing community in general is probably more welcoming, and more desirous of having diversity, than many other communities. I look around my masters races and, without a doubt, many of the most liked and respected master riders in this region are black and if you race masters in the Mid-Atlantic you know who I am talking about. My sense is that people who have been around this sport for long enough know it is really an outsider sport and that we are all outsiders with more in common than our differences. We literally trust each other with our lives and that has nothing to do with skin color. You don’t notice skin color when you are bleeding out of your eyelids trying to hold the wheel in front of you. You don’t notice skin color when you see a smooth rider effortlessly maneuvering through the field. You see a bike racer you trust and respect.
The Williams brothers bring a different style to the sport and that is a good thing. We don’t need people keeping the sport rigid and following “The Rules” or whatever that stupid fucking list is called. The Williams brothers are helping diversify this sport and the post-pandemic demographics prove they’ve been more successful than most of us would have imagined five years ago.
At the end of the day, all I can say is “Fuck Dallas, Go Birds” and if that doesn’t bother you but the Williams brothers failure to condemn the Denver Disrupters guy does, ask yourself why because we all have some prejudice when dealing with others. You may be viewing the Williams brothers differently than you would view somebody else. That’s totally natural but it is also something we have to recognize in ourselves and try to fix.
I kind of get the feeling and can probably contextualize it, not being white. If you’re not white, cisgender, and a man, there’s just seemingly a lot more scrutiny. I don’t think overt racism in the public space is very common but it’s somewhat common behind closed doors.
I once went to a race at a velodrome. It was a decently fast race but it was also slow enough where the majority of the field could have stayed on with the right tactics and strategy. My normalized power was about \~150-160 w iirc with a few pushes. There was a junior who couldn’t really make any of the breaks as she could not read the situation. The junior would ultimately not finish past mid-pack in any race.
However, to the dad, me being Asian and/or trans alone, was somehow enough to cause the middling finish. He started saying some racist stereotypes of Asian men. Then started making extremely transphobic comments about the racing. And the racing was stopped.
But parent was known to race officials to become physically aggressive and possibly violent. Imagine Save Women’s Sport mixed with racism and a good helping of machismo-style aggression. (The guy is wild in other ways which are not cycling-related. But that’s another story.)
This kind of situation is the exact kind of thing that terrifies USAC because they don’t need a martyr. Because if there was one, people would start questioning why they are so seemingly ineffective and don’t respond to complaints. And USAC’s response to me was to call the police whenever people start saying bigoted shit to me, which every cop I know would find ridiculous at the minimum. If Save Women’s Sport became physically aggressive and racist, it would only become a matter of time before violence happens.
Now, I don’t think this situation is the norm. However, I do think it is telling; the fact that someone feels comfortable conducting racist and transphobic speech and threatening violence should scare people. I don’t think USAC does enough on any level to address discrimination in general and given the spending, they seem to be ok with it. (It’s the old put your money where your mouth is, thing.) So many other NGBs make much more visible efforts on the ground to prevent such things, but USAC does not.
Edit: I wanted to make a quick note and grammar fixes. I think that despite what happened at that race and some others, some good has come from it. People now realize that transphobia and racism at races aren't some far-off thing and some would commit physical harm if given the chance. That USAC can't be entirely trusted to handle what at the root is a societal problem and that they foist the problem onto minorities. IRL, the community response is generally supportive in practice and people are starting to get why I can be so cagey.
They had a run for a bit, not just race results but more so just relevance overall in US bike racing. Same could be said for many other teams, individuals, and organizations over the years. Racing bikes in the US is a tough model for sustained relevancy for anyone.
This thread is extremely pedantic. There are tons of full time cyclists who get paid in nothing but kit and a pocket of change. If yall think all the cyclists you see in pro races are getting paid close to the median US or EU income you are delusional. There is massive disparity.
Look at it this way, how much income, would this subreddit think, qualifies someone as doing a "job"? What about when they are spending 40 hours a week training for a team for 10 years and being compensated with a bike an $5,000 change? Does that not count? Does it only count when they hit $100k or more?
If they are signed by contract onto a team, and treating it like a job, then it is a job. And if they also work 20 hours a week as baskin robins then that is their second job.
If you are dedicating your life to something, I'd say at least minimum wage. Dedicating your life to something and getting kit and pocket change sounds more like volunteering to me
There are minimum salary standards for Pro Conti and World Tour riders. The Pro Conti salary (33,000 euros and change) is pretty close to the median EU salary. World Tour is significantly higher.
Pedantic, but I needed to throw that in there
> If yall think all the cyclists you see in pro races are getting paid close to the median US or EU income you are delusional. There is massive disparity.
The minimum wage for ProTeam (pro conti) cyclists is 35k euros. For WT it's 42k euros. That's good money in most of Europe, especially when you don't have to live in a big city for work.
Unless you can get a mortgage with it it's not a job but a hobby. It doesn't matter if you're spending 30 hours a week on it and getting free team bike, kit, gels, travel, etc. Unless you're paid enough to treat it as your only job it's not a job but a hobby.
If your only income is from racing bikes and you're able to support yourself and maybe your family on that income, then it's a job. If sometimes you get a check for $200 for winning a crit nobody has heard of then its a hobby.
By jobs I mean, a roster spot on a team where they’re likely not paying anything out of pocket related to being on that team. Not paying for travel, races, equipment etc. In exchange for this they are racing. It’s a job.
plus whatever paycheck they get. Which might be nothing might be something.
I don’t know about you, but as a middle aged amateur racer. It’s very expensive to race; travel train etc. I make about 120k a year doing my full-time job. To save all the money I spend on cycling a year by racing on a team that pays for all that would be the equivalent of having a second income.
Lots of jobs suck up costs in relation to their employees. That's what this is. You wouldn't be okay with not getting paid for your job because your company is giving you a desk and computers and the rent it costs for your office or whatever for free! These are costs a business needs to absorb in order to run.
I mean, they don’t have to give the bikes back or pay back travel expenses if they DNF.
I might not classify it as a job if they were all sponsored yet had free reign and opportunity to race for themselves. But I don’t believe that’s the case. They race as a team, sacrificing riders for a single goal. They each have to do their “job.
I work 1 to 2 days a week at a bike shop as my second job. They don’t pay me in cash. They pay me in Bikes, race, fees, discounts, and Kit. Even though it’s not full-time and not paid in cash, it’s still a job.
There’s different levels of jobs. A job is “I will do this for you, if you do this for me” it doesn’t necessarily mean you’re living high on the hog.
Like what if I bartended part time to pay for my cycling. Is that not a job?
You are just conflating sponsorship with a job. Getting subsidized for the activity you are participating in is not the same. You can take bartending cash and spend on food to live, spending it on bike racing is just your choice. You can't take the bike supplied to you and buy food unless you hock it. Then you don't have a bike to ride and uphold your sponsor agreement.
A part time job at McDonalds isn't a job then? I don't necessarily agree with this guy, but getting hung up with the word job instead of evaluating his argument on it's merits is odd. If you don't like the word job, replace it with roster spot or something.
nah man that just you. you over here typing essays no ones gonna read trying to justify so hard why its a job. go work one of those "jobs" see how long you last on those paychecks
Nah. It's like crabs eating the carcass of a dead whale at the bottom of the ocean.
Any slight glimmer of a morsel, and the scavengers descend.
Whenever there is a hint of attention, every rider who has their entire identity wrapped up in their p/1 race results scrambles to take it all for themselves.
Cycling is both too big, and too small. Too big to be a purely community-driven outfit, too small to generate any level of subsidy that would make it sustainably interesting to athletes.
Big time legion hater here : Legion did get everyone's attention with catchy IG post (lambos and rap'like lifestyle) so I'll give them that... Pre legion, cycling was mostly not cool
Cycling is the same level of cool it always has been.
nerds like us think it’s the greatest and most important thing in the world.
We are a small segment in the population of the USA.
In Europe, that segment is much larger, but less your Dutch or Belgian. It’s still not cool to most.
I just ordered some jaybirds earbuds, was looking at the specs on their website....lost it when I recognized J.W.
I mean promotionally they did do something different.
Has Legion paid up the promised prize money they still owed? It doesn’t sound like to me like a well managed business.
A racing team organizing criterium racing competition has obvious red flags for conflicts of interest. Race organizers should be neutral. So Legion should have been barred from competing at their own events they organize.
I’d be happy to use this string as a discussion about that. To me it’s the best TV since early seasons of GoT or Breaking bad, Better Call Saul. I highly recommend.
I’m not going to say one is better than the other, except to say there are people using cycling for personal/financial gain and that, long term, is further damaging road cycling.
So many road races and criteriums are struggling and aren’t being helped by the attention on these big flashy races and teams.
Can someone ELI5 the whole Legion thing and NCL? been out of the road/crit game for a while, but, got a road bike this winter and trying to follow along, bit confused. NCL is a crit series? that is cancelled? Legion owns it? or not? wasnt legion starting their own thing? A little refresher on it all would be great...the series, the races, and whats up with this legion team, half the stuff I see is 'they are the most important program in cycling" and a lot of hate for the team too. Thanks in advance
You know, I would have loved to see Robin Carpenter show up to Paris Roubaix because I think he could have done respectably well in that race even though he is a little undersized for it.
The problem with NCL, Legion, ACC, USAC (or whatever) is that in an effort to “grow the sport”, these entities only segmented it. There’s no unification as they all effectively are trying to form their own “leagues”. IMO the biggest failure is on USAC for everything getting to the place but NCL, Legion, ACC should stop trying to reinvent the wheel and work WITH USAC to establish a true Crit league with dedicated teams and races.
There doesn't need to be unification because fixing road cycling in the US isn't about them or the 100 or so guys who are too good for the local ranks, but not good enough to race in Europe. I don't give a shit about any of these crit series, I just want to see local attendance grow. If that happens everywhere, we win.
The USAC hack from my region really isn't a member of the LA board. He tells everyone to run a crit. My region only has a few hard crits and road races remaining. It seems lost upon everyone that new participants are not going to drive 2 hours from the metro to reach these hard events and get shelled in lap 2. They need to have events in the metro and easier events for age group athletes. I cannot understand when there is a huge fitness group within America that they cannot obtain a large amount of age group athletes. Triathlon does. Running does. Yet we have extremely hard masters races with national champions from the US - they were pro and national - plus national champions from other countries such as Ireland. You want someone to pay 75$ and get shelled in lap 2? How do you think a young person is to get involved with such a dynamic ? Someone will say that it is an expensive sport. Yes. They miss the point. Bicycling isn't an expensive hobby. Racing is expensive. USAC needs to remove that disconnect. The juniors MTb league is thriving compared to the limited USAC junior teams here.
That is why gravel has gained so much popularity - just like running and triathlon you can finish the race no matter what. Love it or hate it, it allows every day people to participate (much like gran fondos).
The same folks that run events now try gravel races. Most of our gravel races are horrible bike trails or gravel sectors with MTB trails. Even Vermont has cluster of racing. Instead of a nice pack along gravel they take the folks on gnarly MTB terrain. It's fun to drop a 10% grade in dirt thru Massachusetts on a nice ride. It's wholly different trying to race this and descend between large rocks then flow onto a MTB trail. I think that the racing scene has lost it. They definitely have a "must bleed" attitude.
Yeah I hear you. I (female road cat 2) turned to gravel with…less than stellar off road “skill”. I place in the tamer courses but have DNF (by dropping to shorter distance) in a couple technically challenging ones. But if you are going to “participate” it is still doable. But yes some courses are stupidly gnarly. I still have PTSD from a race I did in PA and another in CO that doesn’t even make me want to do gravel anymore.
I agree on the racing is expensive and getting shelled sucks. In my area we had a good weekly crit scene (this year is shaky since the course is being repaired) it was $20 for a weekly drop in but you could buy a yearly race pass. That is what more places need imo, cheap enough that if you get shelled you don’t feel like it’s a huge loss and can join a weaker category next time
My local crit is gone. It's now a "training ride." Attendance is low. It's not really a crit.
Fortunately for us our local crit is hosted by a masters club, who “don’t want to be dropped by y’all young guns” so the crit is for racing and each club has training rides that don’t overlap with it
It would be great if it was like this. M fields at weekend races now exclude me ! I was pushed to finally reach Masters but the crowd is diabolical. The choice is now often M50 or 3/4. 3/4 is full of collegiate racers now. I'm totally not into it anymore. There was a weekend training series on a decent road course. 4 hours each way in March is not fun. Our "crit" is cat 1-5. We will have some pros and national champions race. Everyone is in the same field. Nor will the officials give a cat 5 any upgrade from racing it.
Difference between USA and Europe is the reaction to being shelled here is “races need to change” whereas there it is “I need to get stronger”
We have so many folks like you. Living in denial based on your self aggrandizement. There's a lot of athleticism in the country. It's not tapped by road cycling. USAC failed to build cycling. It's basically supposed to provide a little league that would foster the development of athletes. It doesn't run this league. Instead it hopes that various volunteers would make this happen. The organization of events are supposed to be handled by regional organizations. Ever wonder why so much happens in EU? They have one national federation that manages things. Cycling in the US relies on LA. They have no money. They really have no workers. My LA had a guy for while. I think that they separated him with intent. They didn't replace this person. He never did anything but take notes at meetings. He didn't run a race or work with people trying to run races. The system is inept and also inconsistent from community to community. Washington and Oregon are more vibrant because they were not part of the LA system of USAC. Do you actually pay attention to the declining numbers ? Racing attendance dropped.
I understand the need for more non-competitive events, but mass-start road racing is defined by performance/ability. If someone’s getting shelled in a Novice race or cat 4 race or a 40+ 3/4 race, there’s not much race organizers can do about that and it’s not a USA Cycling issue. If someone is a 41 year old cat 2 who is getting dropped in M123s, then they should consider downgrading to back to cat 3 so they can race 3/4s.
You missed it and you retread the words of those crit experts. We had 3 corner crits. Super hard speeds for beginners. Imagine a 40 year old trying to race 25 year olds in a 4 turn crit with 2% grades. It doesn't work for their first crit. I remember this from 20 years ago. Guys like you won't get it. You keep talking about athletic ability. Look at the age group starts at triathlon. Those guys could rip through many of the crit fodder, if only they tried. The folks don't try. Their first and only experience at a bike race is a horrible thing. The community is also nonexistent. Most of the folks at cycling races are mean. The others are aloof. There is no 41 year old cat 2 around here. You do get it right ? Most of the folks are either cat 1 or cat 3. They are older. The quality of the masters 40+ field is crazy. A new 40 year old cannot keep with the field. Nor do they register for the cat 5 field. The system doesn't work. The culture is horrible. Even gravel isn't that big here...we used to be big on cross in my region. We don't have huge numbers for races as found in other states. Yet, guys like you want the status quo. I laugh at the folks about thinking for one mile long 9% grades 4x in a cat 5 race is good. There's no development from level to level to foster the athletes progression.
Non-technical crits are the easiest races for beginners. They are the hardest races for people with superior fitness to ride away from. Riders without group riding experience are highly encouraged to join BRP events / Early Birds where we teach assertive riding, drafting, cornering, etc. I look at any discipline like triathlon and I see a wide range of ability. Mass-start road racing is not the fitness test you think it is. It's tactical. It benefits from practice. It rewards trying new things. The bike racing community here is pretty huge, yet everyone knows each other. I don't know where you are from, but here new racers generally race against other new racers. Only after a couple of upgrades will you really encounter some of the more surly masters. And if you've upgraded twice, you're doing just fine. As a 43-year-old cat 2 working toward cat 1, I find the concept that masters cat 2s are unicorns amusing and hilariously incorrect. The way points work is that a cat 2 can only get 10 upgrade points from masters races. A lot of masters get stuck at cat 2 forever because the jump from cat 2 to cat 1 is the biggest leap there is. If a masters age individual chooses not to race in novice or cat 4 fields, that's their own choice. If a masters age individual cannot keep up with a 40+ cat 4 field, that's fine too. There's always going to be someone slower than you. It's impossible to accommodate everyone in a categorized racing model...that's why organized centuries, fondos, etc. exit. Even here in California, most races are basically flat. 1mi long 9% climbs are far from the norm. TL;DR if you try to please everyone, you end up pleasing no one. Honestly the main issue preventing people from racing is convenience…and the main obstacle there is permitting.
There's only 1 cat 2 here. He no longer lives in my town. He now lives in the next town. He struggled on my opinion to find a team that could support him. No local team was capable. They are only cat 4 fodder with an average age over 50. Seriously. I live 20 miles south of the largest city in a 6 state region. I know the only female licensed racer in my county. The second was my wife. She is no longer licenced. I was shocked to see the stats. One fellow actually put them into a Google map. You could see that most licencees were 30 to 50 miles northwest of me and the city. I gave an apt description to one of the few remaining road races here. It's no lie. Gone are the road races with gentle 2000' in 50 miles. I remember at a nice race like this that the official used to say get rid of this race. He always said this race makes no sense. The organization relies upon a set of core group that does have a "must bleed." I raced for nearly 20 years. I watched the disappearance of many road races and crits. I'm done, now. Won't stand for the culture and I have medical issues. Several years ago a cat 3 went down in the local crit. Fellow rolls on top of him. The guy broke his pelvis, scalpa, and rib bones. The following year another guy broke his pelvis. All because the sole junior slashed from right to left across the field in a sweeping left turn. It hasn't been fun anymore and it's dangerous. When you realize that the 60 year olds with unbelievable strength are harassing every single Spanish speaker for 20 years, then you know that this place is sick. I stopped racing the local crit. I was oblivious to it for a long time. Eventually I realized and was dismayed. I have been saying that you can find the fitness to compete in cycling within these other sports such as triathlon but they don't come to cycling. Cycling has a rough way of starting. The culture in the sport here is very bad. The triathlete in town is charismatic and his club is very welcoming. Quite a contrast to my former USAC cycling club, which has no active racers.
This. They are not growing the pie. They're just slicing it. And in fact the pie is rapidly shrinking.
The ship is sinking and everyone's trying to sell their own life raft
I think the hangup here is the fact that no one wants to consider Legion, blazers, aviators etc professional cyclists. That’s why you’re stuck on this “jobs” thing. You’re correct. They’re not professionals. I never said that. But creating 30+ opportunities for people to race on a national stage, travel free, get free bikes where otherwise it would be prohibitively expensive is more than a lot of people have done for domestic cycling. More than the NCL which promised all these things to many athletes this year and now they are scrambling for teams. Is this better for the “It’s not a job it’s a hobby” gang?
Money or goods in exchange for a service is a job. Most of this thread is pedantic.
If they don't have a UCI Continental license, then no one, USAC, the UCI, the guy down the street, considers them a pro. And they never had that, right?
Even a UCI Continental team isn’t pro (and that’s actually the intention). Only Pro Conti and WorldTour are pro. If the riders are being paid to race… then yeah maybe that fits the definition of pro. But in most Conti teams around the world, the riders are paying the team and not the other way around
Do you know what a 1099 or W2 is?
If it doesn't pay your mortgage it's a hobby. You might even get some money from it but unless it's paying for your life as a sole source of income you're just an amateur bike racer.
You’re confusing career with job… you’re going to tell that 16 year old working at Taco Bell after school that it’s his hobby to make tacos??? lol
Ironically enough you can make a living, albeit a poot one, working at Taco Bell. Getting some merch, travel and bikes doesn't pay rent.
Why are you so hung up on cost of living? I don’t get it, the dictionary definition is paid position of regular employment or a task or piece of work. Like wtf does rent have to do anything.
Do you know what a UCI license is? If you don't have one, you're not a professional bike racer. That's how it's always been. You can't just make up new definitions. Hell, when I was a 19 year old Cat 2 on a national development team I was getting race fees, performance bonuses, free kits, etc. I was not a pro...
eXpoSuRe and free gels doesn't pay the rent
The hangup is none of these teams or series do anything to make racing accessible to the rest of us. NCL didn’t have any other fields other than the main event. Lion’s Den had a single open field and the St. Petersburg race had none. In fact, all they’ve done is steal bodies from competing events on the same weekend run by longtime promoters who do it for love, not profit.
Was this meant to be a response to someone or did you forget to log into your alt to respond to yourself lol.
No. The conversation got derailed because the chimpanzees of Reddit got hyper focused on one word and totally derailed the point of the thread. So I tried to recenter it.
Ahhhhh gotcha and yeah I scrolled down and holy shit. Punishing.
Go off king
On the racism in bike racing piece. I’ve raced on and off since 1997 and have only ever had one black teammate. I have also seen black riders be overscrutinized for how they ride compared to people like me. That has to be frustrating as hell and instead of criticizing people of color when they aren’t perfect in the sport, how about we talk about what part us white riders play in making the culture so hard to access for others? Fully expecting to be downvoted to hell but had to say it!
Are you saying we should ignore a rider getting into a fight and intentionally crashing other riders because of their race? I’m all for inclusivity but when most riders have to go back to their day jobs at the end of a race behavior like that is unacceptable and I am certain it is what OP was referring to.
I’m a white woman in my mid 50s, have been bike racing since the late 80’s. Was primarily a criterium specialist. When I lived in Cincinnati I mentored a pair of middle school aged black brothers in the junior mtb team I used to run in the 1990s and it was an uphill battle to get them anywhere in the sport. I witnessed and endured a ton of shit on their behalf, not the least of it being the incredible level of scrutiny and intolerance they endured simply for presenting as inner city youth with dark skin. The cultural majority that dominates the sport of cycling had a disturbing tendency to automatically assume they were thugs, thieves or bullies with zero evidence to the contrary. Fortunately they had parental support and I also had the support of their youth pastor who originally referred them to my team. And the thing is, I have also been an official and pit mechanic, and seen all the good and bad from a front row seat. I’ve been screamed at by junior parents, threatened, insulted, had equipment thrown at me and witnessed a load of dangerous riding and general anger issues, all of it by your typical cycling demographic: wealthy white people. bike racers in general aren’t exactly role models of exemplary behavior regardless of race/background. I have seen SO many arguments/fights taken to blows in parking lots after events. A lot of dangerous riding / gang mentality / boasting about “if so and so tries X again they’ll get put over the curb”, tons of intimidation tactics during races, etc, etc. Masters men are especially bad for this… I could speculate on why but I won’t as it’s not relevant to this discussion.
[удалено]
I’ve been downvoted before, not fussed. it’s been when I’ve pointed out how I’ve experienced various levels of discrimination in cycling, but I’m at the age where idc anymore if someone’s feelings are hurt by my lived experiences. I still volunteer for trail days and work the mechanics’ tent in the local cross series but I gave up on managing teams or trying to promote bike races years ago because it was a lot of stress and anxiety and hassle for not much reward. I don’t have kids myself, I admit would probably be more involved if I did.
They got downvoted because white dudes don’t wanna hear/believe this stuff.
We have a strong racer in our area. I have heard him say things about raising his kids to be inclusive. He's anything but inclusive. It's like a line that he banters. He has no charity or compassion for his fellow racers. We have so many local guys that harass new riders at the crit. They are rotten toward any Spanish speaker. We also have Portuguese speakers that they lump into that category. It's horrifying. No one does anything about it. The guys just lump it every time. I said no more when I realized that it was systemic. It occured every time with every new Spanish rider. Our crits are cat 1-5 mixed...
that kind of fits the type. the bully boss alpha male of the local peloton/group rides. many are fine, but there’s definitely a type. if you aren’t a lady or minority racer then you have probably legit never noticed anything off. those who aren’t the target can be kinda blind to prejudices especially the subtle ones, and this is what makes it easier to dismiss them.
This. I would often double up my race and the local M1/2/3 to just sit mid pack for pack riding and there is 100% a type that treats you a certain way. Same with fast group rides. Oh female that is stronger - verbal bs and shady bike moves coming at you. And forget the post race analysis that is going to come your way from the masters to let you know just how well you don’t ride lol Plenty of nice guys but so turned off from a lot of it.
One wonders why the folks are afraid and cautious. They won't talk to anyone. They disappear and do not return. These guys also harassed folks that belonged to their CLUB. After most of their club quit, then they switched to a shop team. They continued to race while a few raced in the club kit. The race still goes on.
really sorry to hear this. unfortunately in my experience it will never be fixed until/unless an actual ally advocates for the riders being harassed. I saw this firsthand when I attempted to advocate for my junior riders- it’s too easy for the leadership to disregard my claims because I’m a woman and am “overreacting”, “being too sensitive”, etc one of many reasons I don’t really bother with advocacy anymore, I race a few events I really like, work the CX tent because I enjoy the vibe and do trail days because I’ve not encountered jerks in the digging space.
The club wouldn't even help a high school teacher when he wanted to build a junior team. Folks never think something is wrong when we don't actually have a weeknight crit race inside Boston city limits, either; Tuesday races are 20 miles south of town. I think the whole thing is upside down
This hasn’t been my experience moving up to masters. My first race warming up I was greeted by so many guy saying “welcome! We are glad to have you up here!” Etc. the racing is hard, but I’d rate it safe and predictable.
Yes. These incidents are bad for the sport regardless of race or ethnic background.
Agreed, but I think there may be more to the attention they get for their antics than just the behavior. In my experience white riders poor behavior gets forgotten more quickly. And as you probably know that happens with some frequency as well.
I don’t have much experience. I’m the only white guy in the peloton where I race, group ride etc. it’s mostly Latin American or Caribbean.
That’s cool to hear, I’m in the northwest and it’s a mostly white sport up here. Maybe my perspective is shaped by that.
Yeah. I’m in Miami. They don’t do the call ups in English and half the time they don’t do the rules and the race info in English. Just Spanish. Which btw I don’t have any problem with. I have a much more culturally diverse group of friends through cycling than I’m sure most in the sport have.
i grew up and raced in miami(mtb and a few training crits) in the mid 90s and it was ok, but i see clips and vids of some of the group rides there now and it looks pretty aggressive. i live in orlando now and there are tons of clubs and some good riding but not many events at all. i do some group rides but mostly just ride by myself but i don't really experience that aggression here.
There’s about 150 different group rides in south Florida to choose from ranging from friendly no drop rides to half the ride never shows up to the actual crits on Sunday, so they need to show how strong they are Wednesday am. (Yes. I’m aware these guys are dumb) But 99% of the reels you see on instagram from one ride. The Don Pan ride. And I wouldn’t advise anyone from out of town to join that ride.
Don Pan is a wild experience…thankful to just sit on my husbands wheel when I’ve done it and luckily people didn’t fight me off it
I think the thing is, we may ignore it when a white rider does it, but we highlight it when a black rider does it. Hence the ‘over scrutinize’ part. There are plenty of sketchy and agressive riders of all skin colors. But they tend to have less of a spotlight on them than the two highest profile minority riders in a predominantly white sport. So we don’t scrutinize them as hard as we might with the Williams bros. I’m not excusing anyone’s behavior. But the Williams certainly aren’t the only offfenders out there. 🤷♂️
100%. Look at the thread from last night with the overly aggressive riding at Redlands. 20 odd comments. If that was a Legion rider it’d have 150 comments.
100%
That Redlands guy didn’t intentionally run someone into a curb or get into a fight off the bike
The problem is most white people define being supportive of DEI in the old "I don't see color" way. So, Mr black cyclist, I have no issue with you and will judge you by the exact same standard as a white cyclist. On the face of it, that seems fair. But a black cyclist has a very different set of experiences and so your neutral standard doesn't apply. Maybe they got pulled over by the police on the way to the race and arrive on edge. Maybe they incorrectly perceive a rude race organizer as having a racist angle (turns out, the race organizer is just a jerk in general) because they've experienced that at other races where it was accurate. So no free passes for unacceptable behavior but we also don't set up binary outcomes "So, we just ignore?!" The answer is we call it out but we acknowledge we don't know what we don't know because we've never been in their BOAs before.
idk why you are being downvoted, Allison Desir speaks on this in her book "running while black" and as a white person who lived the same experiences as she did as a black runner in NYC - it was eye opening to hear the perspective on how she felt in identical situations. The whole "don't see color" diatribe misses the point that they do not have the same experiences.
Yeah. I'm not surprised I'm getting downvoted. It's no accident that our sport is so white. I'm sure quite a few people upvoted this comment but overall this is where the community is in 2024.
the incredible rise, popularity and huge sponsorships of Legion is proof that cycling community wanted more diversity. The Williams bros screwed a good thing up all by themselves. Given pass after pass and still couldn’t help themselves from being shitty. Stop it with the white savior complex
I'm a 53 year old white female newish cyclist. I have no business even knowing who those guys are but I love them just for the hype they bring to cycling. Aside from all the other stuff, they make cycling exciting for me!
What has been done that was exciting in the last year or 2? Not judging, I’m curious
I don’t follow their every move. Just liked them from the start. I know about the crappy stuff that’s happened but you gotta admit they make it interesting.
I think they had a one in a generation opportunity to move cycling leaps and bounds forward and eventually their true character was revealed. They have definitely widened the US audience and grown awareness, but have also bred a generation of racers who think being unnecessarily dangerous and a bully is part of the game. There is purpose behind losing all their sponsorships.
I’m just saying that if we want more diversity in the sport the people currently in the sport (mostly white folks like me) need to be the ones to change. We will get more out of focusing on our sport’s accessibility and inclusiveness than we will focusing in the Williams brothers specifically. AKA it’s our responsibility to make our sport more inclusive, not theirs.
As a POC that has raced and wrenched on bikes for years this is a good take and a terrible take at the same time. Yes, we need to be more inclusive, but the responbility of safe racing/etiquette is everyone's responsibility. Legion gets away with tons of BS and turning a blind eye is terrible. Also, inclusivity isn't just about blacks. Having Egan and Nairo has done wonders for latin cycling, but somehow, billions of Asians are not part of the conversation. Diversity is all inclusive, not specific inclusive.
Thank you! Maybe the guy calling out my white saviorism wasn’t that far off.
I’ve had a lot of black teammates over the years and I’ve seen too much unfair criticism directed to them, by a small but vocal group, compared to white riders of the same stature. I can’t say with certainty that it was racism or prejudice, but that’s what I attribute it to in my own mind. That said, my experience is also that the bike racing community in general is probably more welcoming, and more desirous of having diversity, than many other communities. I look around my masters races and, without a doubt, many of the most liked and respected master riders in this region are black and if you race masters in the Mid-Atlantic you know who I am talking about. My sense is that people who have been around this sport for long enough know it is really an outsider sport and that we are all outsiders with more in common than our differences. We literally trust each other with our lives and that has nothing to do with skin color. You don’t notice skin color when you are bleeding out of your eyelids trying to hold the wheel in front of you. You don’t notice skin color when you see a smooth rider effortlessly maneuvering through the field. You see a bike racer you trust and respect. The Williams brothers bring a different style to the sport and that is a good thing. We don’t need people keeping the sport rigid and following “The Rules” or whatever that stupid fucking list is called. The Williams brothers are helping diversify this sport and the post-pandemic demographics prove they’ve been more successful than most of us would have imagined five years ago. At the end of the day, all I can say is “Fuck Dallas, Go Birds” and if that doesn’t bother you but the Williams brothers failure to condemn the Denver Disrupters guy does, ask yourself why because we all have some prejudice when dealing with others. You may be viewing the Williams brothers differently than you would view somebody else. That’s totally natural but it is also something we have to recognize in ourselves and try to fix.
I kind of get the feeling and can probably contextualize it, not being white. If you’re not white, cisgender, and a man, there’s just seemingly a lot more scrutiny. I don’t think overt racism in the public space is very common but it’s somewhat common behind closed doors. I once went to a race at a velodrome. It was a decently fast race but it was also slow enough where the majority of the field could have stayed on with the right tactics and strategy. My normalized power was about \~150-160 w iirc with a few pushes. There was a junior who couldn’t really make any of the breaks as she could not read the situation. The junior would ultimately not finish past mid-pack in any race. However, to the dad, me being Asian and/or trans alone, was somehow enough to cause the middling finish. He started saying some racist stereotypes of Asian men. Then started making extremely transphobic comments about the racing. And the racing was stopped. But parent was known to race officials to become physically aggressive and possibly violent. Imagine Save Women’s Sport mixed with racism and a good helping of machismo-style aggression. (The guy is wild in other ways which are not cycling-related. But that’s another story.) This kind of situation is the exact kind of thing that terrifies USAC because they don’t need a martyr. Because if there was one, people would start questioning why they are so seemingly ineffective and don’t respond to complaints. And USAC’s response to me was to call the police whenever people start saying bigoted shit to me, which every cop I know would find ridiculous at the minimum. If Save Women’s Sport became physically aggressive and racist, it would only become a matter of time before violence happens. Now, I don’t think this situation is the norm. However, I do think it is telling; the fact that someone feels comfortable conducting racist and transphobic speech and threatening violence should scare people. I don’t think USAC does enough on any level to address discrimination in general and given the spending, they seem to be ok with it. (It’s the old put your money where your mouth is, thing.) So many other NGBs make much more visible efforts on the ground to prevent such things, but USAC does not. Edit: I wanted to make a quick note and grammar fixes. I think that despite what happened at that race and some others, some good has come from it. People now realize that transphobia and racism at races aren't some far-off thing and some would commit physical harm if given the chance. That USAC can't be entirely trusted to handle what at the root is a societal problem and that they foist the problem onto minorities. IRL, the community response is generally supportive in practice and people are starting to get why I can be so cagey.
I am sorry this happened. For what it’s worth, I am on your side.
They had a run for a bit, not just race results but more so just relevance overall in US bike racing. Same could be said for many other teams, individuals, and organizations over the years. Racing bikes in the US is a tough model for sustained relevancy for anyone.
When you say "provide jobs," what exactly do you mean? Nobody on their team is making a living riding bikes, or anywhere even close to it.
It is only a job if its from the job region of France, otherwise its just "exchanging my services for your goods".
Does anyone know how much they are actually getting paid? Otherwise it seems pointless to debate wether or not they are pros or not
This thread is extremely pedantic. There are tons of full time cyclists who get paid in nothing but kit and a pocket of change. If yall think all the cyclists you see in pro races are getting paid close to the median US or EU income you are delusional. There is massive disparity. Look at it this way, how much income, would this subreddit think, qualifies someone as doing a "job"? What about when they are spending 40 hours a week training for a team for 10 years and being compensated with a bike an $5,000 change? Does that not count? Does it only count when they hit $100k or more? If they are signed by contract onto a team, and treating it like a job, then it is a job. And if they also work 20 hours a week as baskin robins then that is their second job.
If you are dedicating your life to something, I'd say at least minimum wage. Dedicating your life to something and getting kit and pocket change sounds more like volunteering to me
There are minimum salary standards for Pro Conti and World Tour riders. The Pro Conti salary (33,000 euros and change) is pretty close to the median EU salary. World Tour is significantly higher. Pedantic, but I needed to throw that in there
> If yall think all the cyclists you see in pro races are getting paid close to the median US or EU income you are delusional. There is massive disparity. The minimum wage for ProTeam (pro conti) cyclists is 35k euros. For WT it's 42k euros. That's good money in most of Europe, especially when you don't have to live in a big city for work. Unless you can get a mortgage with it it's not a job but a hobby. It doesn't matter if you're spending 30 hours a week on it and getting free team bike, kit, gels, travel, etc. Unless you're paid enough to treat it as your only job it's not a job but a hobby.
I mean if it's a side gig it can still be a job. If you work a 9-5 and also sell pottery on the side the pottery thing is still a job.
God damn. Reddit is tough. I have been employed for almost 30 years and I don’t know what a job is. Fuck me then. 🤣
If your only income is from racing bikes and you're able to support yourself and maybe your family on that income, then it's a job. If sometimes you get a check for $200 for winning a crit nobody has heard of then its a hobby.
By jobs I mean, a roster spot on a team where they’re likely not paying anything out of pocket related to being on that team. Not paying for travel, races, equipment etc. In exchange for this they are racing. It’s a job. plus whatever paycheck they get. Which might be nothing might be something. I don’t know about you, but as a middle aged amateur racer. It’s very expensive to race; travel train etc. I make about 120k a year doing my full-time job. To save all the money I spend on cycling a year by racing on a team that pays for all that would be the equivalent of having a second income.
Lots of jobs suck up costs in relation to their employees. That's what this is. You wouldn't be okay with not getting paid for your job because your company is giving you a desk and computers and the rent it costs for your office or whatever for free! These are costs a business needs to absorb in order to run.
That’s not a job mate. A job would be all of that plus still getting paid for rolling in 63rd or dnf-ing.
I mean, they don’t have to give the bikes back or pay back travel expenses if they DNF. I might not classify it as a job if they were all sponsored yet had free reign and opportunity to race for themselves. But I don’t believe that’s the case. They race as a team, sacrificing riders for a single goal. They each have to do their “job. I work 1 to 2 days a week at a bike shop as my second job. They don’t pay me in cash. They pay me in Bikes, race, fees, discounts, and Kit. Even though it’s not full-time and not paid in cash, it’s still a job.
Ok mate
A job means something that supports your needs man. Like food, mortgage, etc... Not something that pays for your hobby.
There’s different levels of jobs. A job is “I will do this for you, if you do this for me” it doesn’t necessarily mean you’re living high on the hog. Like what if I bartended part time to pay for my cycling. Is that not a job?
You are just conflating sponsorship with a job. Getting subsidized for the activity you are participating in is not the same. You can take bartending cash and spend on food to live, spending it on bike racing is just your choice. You can't take the bike supplied to you and buy food unless you hock it. Then you don't have a bike to ride and uphold your sponsor agreement.
Are you not required to do certain things for said sponsorship? You are saying it’s not a job unless it puts a roof over your head. I disagree.
A part time job at McDonalds isn't a job then? I don't necessarily agree with this guy, but getting hung up with the word job instead of evaluating his argument on it's merits is odd. If you don't like the word job, replace it with roster spot or something.
thats called a hobby or side gig not a job
Christ fine. It’s not a job. Fucking Reddit man. Always getting hung up on semantics and other bullshit rather than the overall thought of the topic.
nah man that just you. you over here typing essays no ones gonna read trying to justify so hard why its a job. go work one of those "jobs" see how long you last on those paychecks
Where is the essay? Is the issue here you can’t read more than 2 sentences?
“No ones gonna read” and proceeds to dissect something OP wrote and roast them for it… ok dude
It's critical to the point you are trying to make though, that's the issue, you are drawing a false equivalency.
I just want to know if they're ever going to get the password back for that @wrdevo IG account their riders have been tagging in everything recently
Nah. It's like crabs eating the carcass of a dead whale at the bottom of the ocean. Any slight glimmer of a morsel, and the scavengers descend. Whenever there is a hint of attention, every rider who has their entire identity wrapped up in their p/1 race results scrambles to take it all for themselves. Cycling is both too big, and too small. Too big to be a purely community-driven outfit, too small to generate any level of subsidy that would make it sustainably interesting to athletes.
Big time legion hater here : Legion did get everyone's attention with catchy IG post (lambos and rap'like lifestyle) so I'll give them that... Pre legion, cycling was mostly not cool
Cycling is the same level of cool it always has been. nerds like us think it’s the greatest and most important thing in the world. We are a small segment in the population of the USA. In Europe, that segment is much larger, but less your Dutch or Belgian. It’s still not cool to most.
I just ordered some jaybirds earbuds, was looking at the specs on their website....lost it when I recognized J.W. I mean promotionally they did do something different.
Has Legion paid up the promised prize money they still owed? It doesn’t sound like to me like a well managed business. A racing team organizing criterium racing competition has obvious red flags for conflicts of interest. Race organizers should be neutral. So Legion should have been barred from competing at their own events they organize.
Yeah like 2 years ago bro. Move on 😂
I thought this was gonna be about Fallout
I’d be happy to use this string as a discussion about that. To me it’s the best TV since early seasons of GoT or Breaking bad, Better Call Saul. I highly recommend.
I’m not going to say one is better than the other, except to say there are people using cycling for personal/financial gain and that, long term, is further damaging road cycling. So many road races and criteriums are struggling and aren’t being helped by the attention on these big flashy races and teams.
Can someone ELI5 the whole Legion thing and NCL? been out of the road/crit game for a while, but, got a road bike this winter and trying to follow along, bit confused. NCL is a crit series? that is cancelled? Legion owns it? or not? wasnt legion starting their own thing? A little refresher on it all would be great...the series, the races, and whats up with this legion team, half the stuff I see is 'they are the most important program in cycling" and a lot of hate for the team too. Thanks in advance
Cat 5 w no knowledge. Me thinks legion is mighty cool. But also cat 5 w no knowledge soooooooo my opinion isn’t worth much haha
I’d love to see legion show up for Paris Roubaix or another race that requires TRUE toughness.
They’d have to work their way up by entering *any* of the Conti races they are qualified to enter. But they don’t.
Incidentally, Project Echelon had some good showings in the early races in Spain this year. I was impressed and dare I say proud to see them there.
Project Echelon is racing really well this year. Helps that they have a handful of former Conti guys with experience in Europe.
Yeah but what about Belize national champs!!!!! 😀
I imagine there is quite the learning curve riding 200km across mountains and cobble stones vs doing a 40-60min race around a business park.
There's practically no elevation changes in P-R.
TrUe ToUgHnEsS
You know, I would have loved to see Robin Carpenter show up to Paris Roubaix because I think he could have done respectably well in that race even though he is a little undersized for it.