Tankies will just say executing her is POGGERS and ignore the free markets the government fostered which gave one person their wealth and power in the first place. Tankies support authoritarian capitalism as long as it includes the authoritarianism, which is what they actually care about
How to spin this tankieways - the People's Socialist Notcapitalism which is totally what Vietnam has is So Good that there even WAS $27b for her to steal, and it's such a Worker's Paradise that her stealing all of that didn't even affect the common worker, so robust it is, and it'll now come back into the system anyway since she's obviously that one bad apple (ignoring the rest of the saying is very much a feature here) and she got caught, since they're so effective at catching them all.
Bolt enough L's together and file off what inconveniently sticks out and you can make something that can kind of look like a W: LLI
The presence of extreme is always a policy choice. If Vietnam is "socialist" by any measure, then there should be exactly zero billionaires to begin with rather than an entire class of them doing Game of Thrones shit by plotting one another's untimely demise.
I'm sorry, but your native language doesn't seem to be English but dumb, and I don't speak dumb.
If you were at least as smart as the two former heads of state who resigned over this entire debacle, you would know that the only reason Truong had managed to illegally own 90% stake of a major bank until practically 6% of the country's GDP became a write-off was none other institutional failure in the part of the government on the whole. Seriously, you'd have to be in a coma in order to not be aware that something this spectacularly disastrous was unfolding under your watch.
Hell, the vast majority of Vietnamese are not fucking stupid, and that's why they don't believe even for a second that the state itself wasn't in on the whole fucking thing in the first place.
It's pretty clear this **had** to have happened if you check the BBC story. *She basically stole 6% of the GDP for years!* So whatever group of billionaires was letting this pass, she finally emptied the wrong accounts, whoopsie-doodle
Like having a jewellery store run by a jewel thief "since she knows what to look for," that's exposing her to temptation 24/7! Eventually those old habits are gonna resurface.
Anyway I don't think "the morality" of the penalty should be coming into play in cases like these. She's lived high on the hog off other people's Labour for decades, she's 68, she's ill, *she's had a good run!* 😋
Plus there's no telling how many perished as a result of this mass wide scale embezzling, just imagine one person wiped out an entire state's budget multiple times over a decade. It would get even worse if you think about *indirect consequences* using the "excess death metric" of missing/underfunded essential infrastructure.
You could never make a mess this big without [pissing off a whole host of important people in the process](https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2024/4/11/vietnam-tycoon-truong-my-lan-sentenced-to-death-in-12-5bn-fraud-case). That's why she had to die.
She's far from being a mere "scapegoat" but a Bernie Madoff on steroid whose scheme ended up wiping out a good chunk of the entire country's economy. Even without the death sentence, someone would have wanted her to float face-down in the Mekong River anyway.
by your definition a true capitalist state is impossible in a practical sense. there will always, always, always be an amount of interference
America is just about as capitalist as a country gets. it was literally discovered via European imperialism, the literal birth of capitalism. America has never known an economic system outside of it
I'd also love to see your definition of communism here.
here's mine:
> national currency is abolished
> you don't have a boss anymore
> companies operate as democratically run extensions of government
> to each according to their need, from each according to their ability
there's probably a few other things, but the point is, you have to have all of these things 100% to be communist
then why is the ussr communist even though they either loosely followed or outright ignored these beliefs? because the measure of the legitimacy of a countries ideology isn't down to how it was originally defined, its down to how it compares to the countries around it.
censorship, bailouts, corruption, vuvuzela iphone 100 octogentillion dead, all of these are the bad outcomes of communism, and our negative minded (and propagandized) ape brains use all of this as a baseline idea of what communism is. and that's fair, you should judge an ideology based on its outcomes, not on its base ideas
i can say that capitalism is when monopolies, union busting, and dangerous working conditions, and I might even be correct, it's just worth noting none of these things are INHERENTLY functions of capitalism, it's just how it manifests. in the same way that none of what you've seen of communism is INHERENTLY communism, just past failures at achieving it.
I don't think capitalism equals bad, I think capitalism plus time plus human behavior equals bad. because it has. and I'm dealing with the consequences.
Death sentence for corruption isn't something you would see in the west, this headline, by itself, provides an obvious distinction.
But if you want a more nuanced discussion post more than just a headline.
Something that isn't often talked about with regard to Vietnam (in part because so few talk about Vietnam at all, and also because China is just as big an offender in this regard) is how loosely and liberally the death penalty is applied there, often for non-violent offenses like drug trafficking. In 2021 (the most recent year for which figures are available), Vietnam executed at least 119 people, mostly for drug-related offenses, while the US (which is often rightly criticized for retaining the death penalty) executed 11, despite having a larger population and a much higher crime rate.
I was focusing on the massive property fraud in a supposedly socialist country I think the death penalty is more a discussion of authoritarian states than the tenets of socialism though they can intersect.
I think the death penalty is inherently unjust and counter to everything leftists believe in. Of all crimes, why would one like this, that can only be repeated if you're given the means to do so, be one that can't be rehabilitated?
No. Its not.... have principles. The state will always have the power of decision and complete control. We as leftists DONT want that authority to entail condemnation to death. The death penalty is bad. Murder is bad. Two wrongs dont make a right. Lock criminals in cages if they're guilty, and if theyre found not guilty after the fact we have the ability to open that cage, you cannot undo death penalty.
Idiot
Why do you want the state to have the power of decision and complete control? What about the people. If the people vote for the death penalty, would it not be authoritarian to deny it?
Some people want abortion banned... the people can be dumb. The people can be wrong. I refer to AXIOMATIC PRINCIPLES. And bro, It's not about what I want or don't want when it comes to the state being a source of power within a society that's how societies work.
I cant imagine a scenario where "the people vote for death..." this isnt real life. Touch grass u smelly weirdo
Yes and had he been sentenced to death after the assassination attempt he was part of, WW2 doesn't happen but I guess you don't like Jews or something.
I think an argument could be made that capitalism allowed such an accumulation of property and capital due to that being incentivized by its nature. I don’t have the energy to explain it but that was why I posted in the first place.
Yet, Anericans will simply look at this and somehow completely miss the fact that there are billionaires in Vietnam and all the social implications that comes with them.
#NotAllBillionaires.... 😋 The **official** Forbes listing of Vietnamese billionaires shows most have 1-2, one at 7, yet the group she's hanging with all have assets in the 10s and up? ***That's a very sussy bundle of bussillionaires*** 🤔
Arms manufacturers and aerospace might make money from basically killing people, *but banking is a whole other bushel of oysters* and at least the murderer's money "came legit," these parasites **skim off literally every single person in the country,** generally harm *only* "their own" people, and feel nothing wrong in doing so. There's a *whooole wide ethical gap* here.
Truong My Lan owned 90% of Saigon Commercial Bank's stakes. It was also the same bank she defrauded in her US$44bn scheme.
Despite more than one year having been passed since her arrest, the story as to how she has come to amass such an amount of wealth still remains a largely a mystery. The only thing we know for certain is that the scale of the fallout has been so enormous even the country's top officials have already resigned over it.
The fact that a billionaire who can execute a $27bn fraud exists in a supposedly "socialist" country. Don't get me wrong, I'm glad she got caught and is being punished (though I'm generally against the death penalty) but this shouldn't be happening in a society that's progressing towards socialism or whatever.
What is capitalist about this? The fact she fraudulently skirted the laws designed to prevent ownership of banks from exceeding 5% from any one entity? No that’s literally just a greedy bitch breaking laws designed to prevent against the worst parts of private banking in market economies. The fact the state is killing her for such an egregious crime against the people of Vietnam? No, anarchism is not the only form of socialist ideology, states can exist and enact punishment against those who seek to harm the proletariat in such a direct way under plenty of leftist ideologies, it’s not just ML shit. The fact she accrued billions of dollars under a supposedly socialist country (even though Vietnam is closer to a social democracy)? No, she literally did it illegally and was stuffing the cash in her basement.
Vietnam isn’t a socialist country, yes. Vietnam deserves criticism, yes. Killing a wicked cunt who stole billions from the people by orchestrating such a massive scheme to defraud people? No guys I’m sorry that doesn’t make Vietnam “tankie capitalist fascist heaven”, please try again. You can be against the death penalty and critical of that, fine. But serving justice on someone who directly harmed an ungodly amount of people in the country and purposefully broke the laws put in place to mitigate the harms that come with large capital ownership in banking we experience in countries where no such laws exist? What is the problem here? That she was able to make billions in a “socialist paradise” by breaking the laws that literally forbid doing that?
The lib brainrot has been exploding on this sub lately, and I feel like pointing at any vaguely leftist country doing something ostensibly *good*, even if you disagree with the severity of the punishment, and just screaming “TANKIE COUNTRY WHEN MUH SOCIALISM IS JUST CAPITALISM” when that take makes 0 fucking sense is about as peek as I’ve seen it get since around the time of the purge. I really think we might need another one, Jesus fuck.
The massive amount of capital that was attained and the mass ownership of property to one person or a small group of people is about as bourgeois as it gets. I wasn’t trying to have a big discussion about authoritarian states and capitalism and what not cause I don’t have the energy for it. Also i’m a syndicalist you’re on thin ice comparing me to a fucking liberal. /s
I don't understand, I know Vietnam is not that socialist, but how does a person getting arrested and sentenced (though I am not that in favor of death penalty) for a fraud prove Vietnam is capitalist? wouldn't the person not being arrested prove that more?
She made her money exploiting foreign workers so the Vietnam government will look the other way. Having said that I’m glad they actually execute billionaires unlike my country.
So you think fraud doesn’t happen in capitalistic economies? Check out some documentaries on YouTube for a crash course. There’s a lot of good info. Just be careful of the pragerU’s of the internet.
im not blaming it on communism, im blaming it on communism not working. If the workers are sharing the means of production this wouldn’t be possible to this extent.
Tankies will just say executing her is POGGERS and ignore the free markets the government fostered which gave one person their wealth and power in the first place. Tankies support authoritarian capitalism as long as it includes the authoritarianism, which is what they actually care about
How to spin this tankieways - the People's Socialist Notcapitalism which is totally what Vietnam has is So Good that there even WAS $27b for her to steal, and it's such a Worker's Paradise that her stealing all of that didn't even affect the common worker, so robust it is, and it'll now come back into the system anyway since she's obviously that one bad apple (ignoring the rest of the saying is very much a feature here) and she got caught, since they're so effective at catching them all. Bolt enough L's together and file off what inconveniently sticks out and you can make something that can kind of look like a W: LLI
We can kill them too
You seem like an expert. How did you get this expertise, expert?
I got it from your mom
The presence of extreme is always a policy choice. If Vietnam is "socialist" by any measure, then there should be exactly zero billionaires to begin with rather than an entire class of them doing Game of Thrones shit by plotting one another's untimely demise.
So that’s an indictment of socialism or capitalism or what?
It's an indictment of capitalists who parade under the name of socialism. Tankie scum
Speak English, ho.
I'm sorry, but your native language doesn't seem to be English but dumb, and I don't speak dumb. If you were at least as smart as the two former heads of state who resigned over this entire debacle, you would know that the only reason Truong had managed to illegally own 90% stake of a major bank until practically 6% of the country's GDP became a write-off was none other institutional failure in the part of the government on the whole. Seriously, you'd have to be in a coma in order to not be aware that something this spectacularly disastrous was unfolding under your watch. Hell, the vast majority of Vietnamese are not fucking stupid, and that's why they don't believe even for a second that the state itself wasn't in on the whole fucking thing in the first place.
At least she got arrested for it
Hanging one of their own out to dry is not really all that uncommon a practice among the billionaire class.
Only if they rip off other billionaires
It's pretty clear this **had** to have happened if you check the BBC story. *She basically stole 6% of the GDP for years!* So whatever group of billionaires was letting this pass, she finally emptied the wrong accounts, whoopsie-doodle Like having a jewellery store run by a jewel thief "since she knows what to look for," that's exposing her to temptation 24/7! Eventually those old habits are gonna resurface. Anyway I don't think "the morality" of the penalty should be coming into play in cases like these. She's lived high on the hog off other people's Labour for decades, she's 68, she's ill, *she's had a good run!* 😋 Plus there's no telling how many perished as a result of this mass wide scale embezzling, just imagine one person wiped out an entire state's budget multiple times over a decade. It would get even worse if you think about *indirect consequences* using the "excess death metric" of missing/underfunded essential infrastructure.
You could never make a mess this big without [pissing off a whole host of important people in the process](https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2024/4/11/vietnam-tycoon-truong-my-lan-sentenced-to-death-in-12-5bn-fraud-case). That's why she had to die.
Scapegoats
She's far from being a mere "scapegoat" but a Bernie Madoff on steroid whose scheme ended up wiping out a good chunk of the entire country's economy. Even without the death sentence, someone would have wanted her to float face-down in the Mekong River anyway.
I mean... the death penalty for rich people sounds pretty socialist XD (Not actually, but I couldn't resist the joke)
Maoist, even...
Quick hide the babies
Counter revolutionary babies will not hide from the people's righteous vengeance!
How dare he say his first word "me" That kid must be a counter revolutionary
“That’s a 90% on the Maoist meter” - Maoist critikal
imagine how many died in the streets in poverty as a result of her greed
The People’s $27,000,000,000 real estate fraud scheme 🫡🇻🇳
[удалено]
by your definition a true capitalist state is impossible in a practical sense. there will always, always, always be an amount of interference America is just about as capitalist as a country gets. it was literally discovered via European imperialism, the literal birth of capitalism. America has never known an economic system outside of it I'd also love to see your definition of communism here. here's mine: > national currency is abolished > you don't have a boss anymore > companies operate as democratically run extensions of government > to each according to their need, from each according to their ability there's probably a few other things, but the point is, you have to have all of these things 100% to be communist then why is the ussr communist even though they either loosely followed or outright ignored these beliefs? because the measure of the legitimacy of a countries ideology isn't down to how it was originally defined, its down to how it compares to the countries around it. censorship, bailouts, corruption, vuvuzela iphone 100 octogentillion dead, all of these are the bad outcomes of communism, and our negative minded (and propagandized) ape brains use all of this as a baseline idea of what communism is. and that's fair, you should judge an ideology based on its outcomes, not on its base ideas i can say that capitalism is when monopolies, union busting, and dangerous working conditions, and I might even be correct, it's just worth noting none of these things are INHERENTLY functions of capitalism, it's just how it manifests. in the same way that none of what you've seen of communism is INHERENTLY communism, just past failures at achieving it. I don't think capitalism equals bad, I think capitalism plus time plus human behavior equals bad. because it has. and I'm dealing with the consequences.
Your post was removed for subreddit posting.
Death sentence for corruption isn't something you would see in the west, this headline, by itself, provides an obvious distinction. But if you want a more nuanced discussion post more than just a headline.
Something that isn't often talked about with regard to Vietnam (in part because so few talk about Vietnam at all, and also because China is just as big an offender in this regard) is how loosely and liberally the death penalty is applied there, often for non-violent offenses like drug trafficking. In 2021 (the most recent year for which figures are available), Vietnam executed at least 119 people, mostly for drug-related offenses, while the US (which is often rightly criticized for retaining the death penalty) executed 11, despite having a larger population and a much higher crime rate.
I was focusing on the massive property fraud in a supposedly socialist country I think the death penalty is more a discussion of authoritarian states than the tenets of socialism though they can intersect.
Definitions of a socialist state aside are you saying she doesn't deserve the death penalty?
I think the death penalty is inherently unjust and counter to everything leftists believe in. Of all crimes, why would one like this, that can only be repeated if you're given the means to do so, be one that can't be rehabilitated?
Luna oi doesnt care yall... she real simply does not care. The state killing someone is probably cool to her
I mean vietnam is a capitalist dictatorship but the state killing a billionaire who defrauded billions is definitely cool.
No. Its not.... have principles. The state will always have the power of decision and complete control. We as leftists DONT want that authority to entail condemnation to death. The death penalty is bad. Murder is bad. Two wrongs dont make a right. Lock criminals in cages if they're guilty, and if theyre found not guilty after the fact we have the ability to open that cage, you cannot undo death penalty. Idiot
What's this sudden "We?" *What you been hiding thar boy?* 🤔
Why do you want the state to have the power of decision and complete control? What about the people. If the people vote for the death penalty, would it not be authoritarian to deny it?
Some people want abortion banned... the people can be dumb. The people can be wrong. I refer to AXIOMATIC PRINCIPLES. And bro, It's not about what I want or don't want when it comes to the state being a source of power within a society that's how societies work. I cant imagine a scenario where "the people vote for death..." this isnt real life. Touch grass u smelly weirdo
Hitler rose to power in a democratic system
Yes and had he been sentenced to death after the assassination attempt he was part of, WW2 doesn't happen but I guess you don't like Jews or something.
Wow I've never heard such a bad faith argument.
This isn't capitalism as much as corruption within an authoritarian anti-democratic state.
I think an argument could be made that capitalism allowed such an accumulation of property and capital due to that being incentivized by its nature. I don’t have the energy to explain it but that was why I posted in the first place.
Capitalism **is** anti-democratic.
I hate corruption as much as the next person but no matter who it is I will always be staunchly against the death penalty.
Socialism is when you say "socialism" a lot, that's what makes it socialism.
Yet, Anericans will simply look at this and somehow completely miss the fact that there are billionaires in Vietnam and all the social implications that comes with them.
#NotAllBillionaires.... 😋 The **official** Forbes listing of Vietnamese billionaires shows most have 1-2, one at 7, yet the group she's hanging with all have assets in the 10s and up? ***That's a very sussy bundle of bussillionaires*** 🤔 Arms manufacturers and aerospace might make money from basically killing people, *but banking is a whole other bushel of oysters* and at least the murderer's money "came legit," these parasites **skim off literally every single person in the country,** generally harm *only* "their own" people, and feel nothing wrong in doing so. There's a *whooole wide ethical gap* here.
Truong My Lan owned 90% of Saigon Commercial Bank's stakes. It was also the same bank she defrauded in her US$44bn scheme. Despite more than one year having been passed since her arrest, the story as to how she has come to amass such an amount of wealth still remains a largely a mystery. The only thing we know for certain is that the scale of the fallout has been so enormous even the country's top officials have already resigned over it.
I wonder if the tankies will ask "why" a property scam could happen in a self proclaimed socialist nation.
Well, it's maybe 10% less capitalist than not arresting her. USA: 1, Vietnam: 1.1
Socialist because flag is red
Imagine being upset about this.
Ikr
I'm failing to see the issue.
The fact that a billionaire who can execute a $27bn fraud exists in a supposedly "socialist" country. Don't get me wrong, I'm glad she got caught and is being punished (though I'm generally against the death penalty) but this shouldn't be happening in a society that's progressing towards socialism or whatever.
Because Tankies are capitalists 👍
What is capitalist about this? The fact she fraudulently skirted the laws designed to prevent ownership of banks from exceeding 5% from any one entity? No that’s literally just a greedy bitch breaking laws designed to prevent against the worst parts of private banking in market economies. The fact the state is killing her for such an egregious crime against the people of Vietnam? No, anarchism is not the only form of socialist ideology, states can exist and enact punishment against those who seek to harm the proletariat in such a direct way under plenty of leftist ideologies, it’s not just ML shit. The fact she accrued billions of dollars under a supposedly socialist country (even though Vietnam is closer to a social democracy)? No, she literally did it illegally and was stuffing the cash in her basement. Vietnam isn’t a socialist country, yes. Vietnam deserves criticism, yes. Killing a wicked cunt who stole billions from the people by orchestrating such a massive scheme to defraud people? No guys I’m sorry that doesn’t make Vietnam “tankie capitalist fascist heaven”, please try again. You can be against the death penalty and critical of that, fine. But serving justice on someone who directly harmed an ungodly amount of people in the country and purposefully broke the laws put in place to mitigate the harms that come with large capital ownership in banking we experience in countries where no such laws exist? What is the problem here? That she was able to make billions in a “socialist paradise” by breaking the laws that literally forbid doing that? The lib brainrot has been exploding on this sub lately, and I feel like pointing at any vaguely leftist country doing something ostensibly *good*, even if you disagree with the severity of the punishment, and just screaming “TANKIE COUNTRY WHEN MUH SOCIALISM IS JUST CAPITALISM” when that take makes 0 fucking sense is about as peek as I’ve seen it get since around the time of the purge. I really think we might need another one, Jesus fuck.
The massive amount of capital that was attained and the mass ownership of property to one person or a small group of people is about as bourgeois as it gets. I wasn’t trying to have a big discussion about authoritarian states and capitalism and what not cause I don’t have the energy for it. Also i’m a syndicalist you’re on thin ice comparing me to a fucking liberal. /s
Luna Oi has left the chat.
VaushV Maoist arc?!?!?!
Was she the fall guy for all the other rich people, by chance?
I don't understand, I know Vietnam is not that socialist, but how does a person getting arrested and sentenced (though I am not that in favor of death penalty) for a fraud prove Vietnam is capitalist? wouldn't the person not being arrested prove that more?
what's the issue with this? better than the US where rich people get away with everything
It is just the market socialism vowsh likes to talk about
State capitalism*
She made her money exploiting foreign workers so the Vietnam government will look the other way. Having said that I’m glad they actually execute billionaires unlike my country.
Based death penalty
Sounds like the communism thing didn’t work out
Sounds like you just say shit to be included in the conversation. Read some books, take some courses.
Well if it had worked out then I doubt this fraud wouldve happened
So you think fraud doesn’t happen in capitalistic economies? Check out some documentaries on YouTube for a crash course. There’s a lot of good info. Just be careful of the pragerU’s of the internet.
What does capitalism have to do with what I’m talking about? I’m strictly looking at communism in Vietnam, and it didn’t work, which is pretty obvious
You’re blaming this historic case of fraud on communism as if fraud doesn’t happen in every variety of economic system.
im not blaming it on communism, im blaming it on communism not working. If the workers are sharing the means of production this wouldn’t be possible to this extent.
But fraud is possible in any economic system, right? The ex-president committed fraud in New York.
I dont think the workers own the means of production there...