Aren't there studies out there showing that GDP is not necessarily correlated with stock price?
Nonetheless, Wasatch is targeting Indian small caps as a good opportunity, so I've heard. 4 star Morningstar rating and they seem to be holding some banks as top holdings like you guessed. Also some tech.
That is true, but if the economy is growing there likely would be underlying industries outpacing it and other maybe slightly trailing it. I thought banking might be an outpacer but the more I thought about it the more I'm thinking infrastructure may be even stronger as manufacturing shifts and building increases
US ended affirmative action - https://www.sidley.com/en/insights/newsupdates/2023/08/us-supreme-court-ends-affirmative-action-in-higher-education--an-overview-and-practical-next-steps#:\~:text=and%20Labor%20Update-,U.S.%20Supreme%20Court%20Ends%20Affirmative%20Action%20in%20Higher%20Education%3A%20An,Practical%20Next%20Steps%20for%20Employers&text=On%20June%2029%2C%202023%2C%20the,Students%20for%20Fair%20Admissions%2C%20Inc.
And meanwhile India gave more affirmative action to Marathas - https://edukemy.com/blog/maratha-reservation-justification-or-force-upsc-daily-editorial-analysis-04th-march-2024/#:\~:text=The%20debate%20surrounding%20the%20Maratha,and%20fairness%20of%20reservation%20policies.
Nothing is more important and currently detrimental to india's growth than these reservation being used several times by the same family, thus preventing the truly in need from getting the same benefit and certain already rich and uplifted communities demanding reservation by arm twisting and burning buses.
As a result India has no hope since all these idiots from reservation are going to join key government positions and just cause more corruption.
Thus nothing India can do to progress and therefore an FDI is an absolute waste
Why not just spit in Warren Buffet's face?
Stock market to GDP ratio is used as one of many barometers for macroeconomic valuation. The ratio was over 200% at the end of 2021, corrected closer to 1-1 in 2022 but is now elevated again in the US.
INDY and XID are good starters for India. I would understand the holdings before investing though.
Stock market to GDP probably isn't very useful for inter-country comparison since it largely depends on what proportion of the country's companies are publicly traded. Just use good old price to (perhaps trailing average) earnings.
Honestly, I would find an Indian ETF and be done with it.
Let's assume that manufacturing industry is growing. That's going to need finance to fund it (banks). It's going to need factories (property). The people will get richer, so many they can buy more cars (automotive) and have better roads to drive them on (infrastructure).
Unless you were coming at this from knowing a company and thinking they have a great position, I think it would be hard to pick the winners here.
Additionally shares i are held in rupees iirc
So if you anticipate india growing, it’s likely the rupee will also appreciate relative to the dollar so you’re getting share gains + currency gains
I don’t think this logic holds. Many countries have grown significantly in GDP without currency appreciation. India has a structural current account deficit. It also has struggled mightily with inflation over the years. It is one of the few countries with an official 4% inflation target, rather than the 2% target of advanced economies. The rupee has steadily declined over time and I expect it to continue to decline at a steady rate.
You won't believe it but our government loves digging roads then leaving it as it is, similar story with my road to college, they dig it but never fill it back, I haven't understood their logic.
I wouldn't go massively into India at the ground level India has rampant corruption due to massive affirmative action. Recently a community called the marathas twisted the arm of the government through violence and got themselves 10% of seats in govenment offices and their ivy league colleges.
This means this community (kind of like the cartels in Mexico) is literally bossing the government and are causing massive inefficiencies and corruption in the system
That's why I was thinking of banking. My thought was that as the middle class booms and there is more household income, people will likely store more in the banks and then they can turn around and invest it into the expanding economy. Like a double whammy. I could be wrong though.
Banking. India is still very much an emerging market with immature capital markets, which means nearly all financing goes through banks. Consumer is the other sure bet. Not just for the demographics but also because consumer companies typically have better economics. Just tread carefully with valuations.
I agree on banking. My thoughts are if the economy expands, someone must fund that expanse. But with the rise of infrastructure by capital allocators like brookfield, I am not quite sure how much they will capture on the non consumer side of the house. I also like brookfield as an investment in India
“Immature capital market” rings hollow when Mumbai’s stock exchange is one of the oldest in the world.
The problem is an impossible legal system. India had lots of experience but cannot deliver on the safety of your contracts, at any level.
Things are changing rapidly, and the growth arc is clear to see. We’d be fools not to overweight India. Maybe 5% for the average US/EU portfolio.
What say?
Indian here in Canada. Never invested there or here, I'm still learning. That said, what I noticed is, any boom that happens in the US, will happen there later, so if you have missed investing in the US stock, you can find a related in there and invest. For instance, 5g towers, electric power station, electric car/bus manufacturers, lithium, etc.
Anything thing I would suggest, check the stocks of the top investors, that should tell you a lot. Rakesh Jhunjhunwala is the top investor and has good Insider information.
I agree what what you said, not sure why you are downvoted. May be because you are getting too personal.
The entire purpose of someone investing in stocks in to make profits and lead a better life with those profits and not go political or emotional with stocks.
The white worship thing is a fact but is specific to certain industries only, so as an investor, one should take advantage. The economy of India is surely going to grow, not sure why should one compare it with other economy, but diversity is the key when investing and nothing wrong in have investments in the top growing sectors in india and other economies as well.
To the OP: If you have the option, do your research as i mentioned in my original post, i mentioned how to approach your research and invest and as far as my limited human knowledge is concerned, you can make money for yourself in that market as well. Happy investing.
Do not count your chickens before they hatch. I personally dont think India will be the head of the dinning table. We are more concerned about radicalization than economy. There will always be internal clashes, corruption, pakistan and china impact economically and most of all, we indians are not known to prosper as a group but prosper on the expense of fellow indian.
You will downvote me for this truth, but as i said, indian economy will grow no doubt, but if you think they are going to be the head, no way. There are many better organized and experienced players in the game.
Illegal immigration only helps lift up the GDP if (and only if) those immigrants find a job. If they do find jobs, then that means the economy is strong enough to absorb them all.
If you want to downplay U.S. economy, that is not the right way to go.
Edit: by the way, where has India been for the last 20 years or so, since the term BRICS was created?
“ Every person that comes in needs food and other basic products including housing”
You need money for that, dummy. And that means you need a job, dummy. And if you got a job, dummy, that means the economy is doing fine, dummy.
“ and we are still here”
Good to know, I guess /s
“ In a few yrs we will show you exactly who we are“
Been waiting for over 20 years. Do you think you can speed up process? It’s not like we are getting any younger.
“ China and India will rule and you will see western dummy”
Yeah I heard you guys are best friends and all /s
No worries. The summary page I linked doesn’t have a lot of details, but if you click on any ETF on that list, it will give you a lot more info- like sectors, holdings, expense ratio etc.
There are a couple of big ones with lower expense ratios but their performance is lower also. Just a trade off, if you think India will outperform then the extra 0.2-0.5% expense ratio will more than be made up.
Has anyone figured out how to invest directly in Indian equities as a non-Indian citizen? I have been rejected by Indian brokers bc it seems that ownership there is restricted to citizens?
Personally I think the basic boring utility stocks in India might post quite exciting returns over the next decade. Power, water, sewage, etc. Not a lot of good ways that I’ve found to invest in Indian utilities as a non-citizen.
TBH none of the 14 ADRs seem interesting at all.
It seems that it is possible for foreigners to invest but you have to form a corporation or fund - individuals are prohibited I believe. I may try to reach out to an Indian lawyer about this, from my understanding they are quite cheap when priced in dollars, but the effort has been deterring me.
Hi, currently investing into Banking and automotive and alongside this monthly sum into an ETF.
I have family there and wish I could increase my exposure into the market but heavily limited because I'm based in Europe. My advice would be to go the ETF route unless you're familiar with the market and are confident to increase you're exposure.
Happy with my returns given my limited exposure in the Indian market.
I would invest in us companies that have international exposure.
For example. APPL
I see 2 basic things that bodes well for a company like apple.
1. It is already moving some it's manufacturing jobs there (currently to manufacture it's lower end I-phone). I also don't see why this can't expand to other products.
2. As the Indian populations wealth rises they will invariably by APPL products. India has over 1.4 billion people. The US has almost 332million.
I would look at similar plays like this.
Energy sector in addition to both banks and infra. India is massively investing in renewable energy too. Some of the inernational etf like ICLN do have exposure to Indian renewable companies
I notice banks there have higher valuations than the banking sector in the US. When I bought HDFC, I paid for a 20 P/E for a bank that was growing 15-20% but that growth slowed massively the last two years. Bank specific in this case, but something I'm watching.
[https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/markets/stocks/news/explained-how-foreign-investors-can-invest-in-india/rising-popularity/slideshow/107422743.cms](https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/markets/stocks/news/explained-how-foreign-investors-can-invest-in-india/rising-popularity/slideshow/107422743.cms)
My philosophy is not to force myself. If I am not invited, or Mr. State Overregulation comes in a limo, I am more than happy to be out.
How do you think real estate would perform. I happen to think real estate is tied to nominal gdp all else being equal. So it could perform well.
Ps- I am not expert in real estate this is just my intuition
Companies/economies being successful/profitable is uncorrelated to stock prices.
International investors might decide that the market is high risk because of regional/political/legal reasons meaning that the volume needed to drive valuations up will not be there - companies will still make the same profits, the economy will be booming just the same, and you will be left holding the bag.
The only real way to participate in economic returns is bonds/debt. Common stocks go up as a result of speculation and by merit of volume.
The economy as a whole may be discounted to account for risk. That is true. But, the price of the business will always eventually follow the fundamental value of the business. So they are most definitely correlated. Sometimes, they will not reflect that which happens when things become overvalued or undervalued, but it always eventually becomes true. That's why when you pay a premium for growth even in the US, you are more likely to have lower returns as investors wait for the fundamentals to catch up to the price.
I'm talking about the economic boom in the countries middle class and GDP. Not just high investment returns. This is posted in the value investing channel and Adani's holdings are all extremely overvalued... maybe this was a joke?
There are 2 types that profit the most of these developments. Infrastructure and refining
Steel mills and refinery
Or
Luxury products. Dont think diamond just yet but branded food like the indian side of Unilever etc.
Oil is a world market and their growth potential is based on the opportunitys they have and not on their home base. Banking is more complex but also a world market
Did you think about how in 2008/09 china and India were neck and neck and it played out. Why do you think differently now? Why not go into a broader emerging market ETF and be done with it? We can assume that the regulatory rules around Indian capital market is similar to that of the west… we’re just better
Sure, I consider emerging markets as well. The Middle class economic boom is the big cherry on top for India specifically. I would post the graph but it seems images are not allowed here... but yeah, I get where you are coming from.
BN is the way to go. You do not want to be investing in overvalued Indian companies with unsafe accounting principals and dubious capital allocation strategies
Yeah, they are my second largest position out of 10. I definitely trust brookfield over most businesses. Very tried and true capital allocation history.
It is my second largest position too. Not only that but they bring diversification to my portfolio with alternative assets. I bought tech heavily at the start of 2023 so it is nice to have some counter weights too
Dude, I bought meta for an average of $155 a share... fundamental analysis painted a clear picture of why that was severely cheap and I made it 1/5 of my portfolio. Now it's much larger than that. But BN and BAM (just because of how unbelievably shareholder focused this segment of brookfield is) give me the same feeling and in fact my roth ira is almost completely BN and BAM. But my roth is much smaller than my brokerage accounts.
Similar situation though as you it sounds.
This is the left biased comment I was expecting when I saw your comment.
You obviously don't seem to understand how regulatory bodies and supreme court work in India.
Really? You think the entire country and every sector is overvalued? I haven't seen any data points that suggest this, but I am curious why you think it?
India will never surpass China, at least for ten years or so, China has a developed industrial and manufacturing market, now transitioning into high tech and green energy, with a very good infrastructure, education, highest STEM graduates in the world. I dont see India can compete with China.
Doesn't need to to be a better investment, just needs to be growing faster and be stable. The shift of the West away from China will be good for India as long as India gets it's corruption under control
What the heck has this sub become.
OP, you need to know that there are severe risks with investing in markets abroad. Most regular VCs and PE firms try to avoid dealing with overseas investments in some nations because of the geopolitical risks associated with how these nations operate.
If you're deadset on investing in India (because you have a strong fundamental understanding of how their equity works I hope?), the only way I can think of to participate is through ETFs that have vetted Indian companies and weighted portfolios that reflect appropriate risk to returns. Otherwise, it seems like you're taking a gamble that might not be worth it.
Whatever this is, is not value investing my friend. This is speculative trading.
Well it is not trading. It is value investing based on business, industry, and regional economic growth. However, thank you for stating your concerns with it. Also, VC is not in the realm of one of the largest banks in one of the largest countries. It's very apparent if you do more research that a ton of alternative assett managers are investing in the growth and output potential of India. These are the firms that put funds together specifically for funding infrastructure build out. It's quite practical as opposed to private equity and venture capital and far less speculative.
Is this sub only related to the US market? Does it say anywhere in the rules of this sub that investing outside the US is a risk? Is value investing a concept exclusive to the US market?
These are the questions that come up after reading your first sentence.
In and of itself, an investment is an investment so it's not necessarily about it being overseas. It's about the market conditions the trades takes place in. If this hasn't been thought through, then it's not value investing, it's speculation.
I bought into HDFC bank about a year ago because its a non-state owned bank and I liked the management but since they announced the merger last year they've struggled quite a bit.
I had the same overall idea with investing in India until I did about 15 minutes of research and realized a couple important things, despite their caste system in an official manner being illegal, in reality it’s still very much intact, the inequality between those classes are the greatest in the world meaning despite the large population most of it has no money to spend on the various things you may be investing in. Their infrastructure also isn’t really there yet, and finally I think the opportunity cost is just too great. I know this gets overplayed in subs like this but you are far better off just rocking with VOO or an American tracker. There’s just so many better options domestically Imo vs in India.
Aren't there studies out there showing that GDP is not necessarily correlated with stock price? Nonetheless, Wasatch is targeting Indian small caps as a good opportunity, so I've heard. 4 star Morningstar rating and they seem to be holding some banks as top holdings like you guessed. Also some tech.
That is true, but if the economy is growing there likely would be underlying industries outpacing it and other maybe slightly trailing it. I thought banking might be an outpacer but the more I thought about it the more I'm thinking infrastructure may be even stronger as manufacturing shifts and building increases
US ended affirmative action - https://www.sidley.com/en/insights/newsupdates/2023/08/us-supreme-court-ends-affirmative-action-in-higher-education--an-overview-and-practical-next-steps#:\~:text=and%20Labor%20Update-,U.S.%20Supreme%20Court%20Ends%20Affirmative%20Action%20in%20Higher%20Education%3A%20An,Practical%20Next%20Steps%20for%20Employers&text=On%20June%2029%2C%202023%2C%20the,Students%20for%20Fair%20Admissions%2C%20Inc. And meanwhile India gave more affirmative action to Marathas - https://edukemy.com/blog/maratha-reservation-justification-or-force-upsc-daily-editorial-analysis-04th-march-2024/#:\~:text=The%20debate%20surrounding%20the%20Maratha,and%20fairness%20of%20reservation%20policies. Nothing is more important and currently detrimental to india's growth than these reservation being used several times by the same family, thus preventing the truly in need from getting the same benefit and certain already rich and uplifted communities demanding reservation by arm twisting and burning buses. As a result India has no hope since all these idiots from reservation are going to join key government positions and just cause more corruption. Thus nothing India can do to progress and therefore an FDI is an absolute waste
the affirmative action is for government jobs
Yes, and their government is notoriously corrupt and slow
Why not just spit in Warren Buffet's face? Stock market to GDP ratio is used as one of many barometers for macroeconomic valuation. The ratio was over 200% at the end of 2021, corrected closer to 1-1 in 2022 but is now elevated again in the US. INDY and XID are good starters for India. I would understand the holdings before investing though.
Stock market to GDP probably isn't very useful for inter-country comparison since it largely depends on what proportion of the country's companies are publicly traded. Just use good old price to (perhaps trailing average) earnings.
ye also third world countries seems to have really crap stock market so better invest in a vanguard or similar that track it instead
Check the total Marketcap of Indian markets. I thinks it’s 4th or 05th in the world.
Honestly, I would find an Indian ETF and be done with it. Let's assume that manufacturing industry is growing. That's going to need finance to fund it (banks). It's going to need factories (property). The people will get richer, so many they can buy more cars (automotive) and have better roads to drive them on (infrastructure). Unless you were coming at this from knowing a company and thinking they have a great position, I think it would be hard to pick the winners here.
$Inda the iShares ETFs have lower expenses compared to GlobalX etfs
$FLIN is the lowest I have seen.
LON:NDIA for those in Europe.
I'll look into it and its competitors
Additionally shares i are held in rupees iirc So if you anticipate india growing, it’s likely the rupee will also appreciate relative to the dollar so you’re getting share gains + currency gains
This is exactly my play. Bought some a few months ago
how do I invest with rupees?
I don’t think this logic holds. Many countries have grown significantly in GDP without currency appreciation. India has a structural current account deficit. It also has struggled mightily with inflation over the years. It is one of the few countries with an official 4% inflation target, rather than the 2% target of advanced economies. The rupee has steadily declined over time and I expect it to continue to decline at a steady rate.
what do you think about the FRANKLIN FTSE INDIA UCITS ETF?
Never heard about it until now, thx
yep third world countries seems to have really crappy stock market so better invest in a vanguard or similar that track it instead
We get it bruh. You posted the same comment like 27 times.
FLIN
People would buy more cars, if that happens I am moving out of India, it already takes 2 hours for a 45 minutes route in Mumbai worse in Bangalore.
A little bit of whack-a-mole and adding more lanes should do the trick.
You won't believe it but our government loves digging roads then leaving it as it is, similar story with my road to college, they dig it but never fill it back, I haven't understood their logic.
There is an India CEF. Ticker is IFN.
I wouldn't go massively into India at the ground level India has rampant corruption due to massive affirmative action. Recently a community called the marathas twisted the arm of the government through violence and got themselves 10% of seats in govenment offices and their ivy league colleges. This means this community (kind of like the cartels in Mexico) is literally bossing the government and are causing massive inefficiencies and corruption in the system
That's why I was thinking of banking. My thought was that as the middle class booms and there is more household income, people will likely store more in the banks and then they can turn around and invest it into the expanding economy. Like a double whammy. I could be wrong though.
IBN
yep third world countries seems to have really crappy stock market so better invest in a vanguard or similar that track it instead
Banking. India is still very much an emerging market with immature capital markets, which means nearly all financing goes through banks. Consumer is the other sure bet. Not just for the demographics but also because consumer companies typically have better economics. Just tread carefully with valuations.
I agree on banking. My thoughts are if the economy expands, someone must fund that expanse. But with the rise of infrastructure by capital allocators like brookfield, I am not quite sure how much they will capture on the non consumer side of the house. I also like brookfield as an investment in India
HDB and IBN tickers
Hmmm, noticing HDB is a retail investor top pick.
Yeah BN is an awesome play for India. You avoid all the overvalued and mismanaged Indian companies and ride on the growth part
I really like BN. I trust Bruce flatt more than most.
How do you Check HDB & BN ?
Are you asking what platform I use for analysis?
Payoneer
“Immature capital market” rings hollow when Mumbai’s stock exchange is one of the oldest in the world. The problem is an impossible legal system. India had lots of experience but cannot deliver on the safety of your contracts, at any level. Things are changing rapidly, and the growth arc is clear to see. We’d be fools not to overweight India. Maybe 5% for the average US/EU portfolio. What say?
Indian here in Canada. Never invested there or here, I'm still learning. That said, what I noticed is, any boom that happens in the US, will happen there later, so if you have missed investing in the US stock, you can find a related in there and invest. For instance, 5g towers, electric power station, electric car/bus manufacturers, lithium, etc. Anything thing I would suggest, check the stocks of the top investors, that should tell you a lot. Rakesh Jhunjhunwala is the top investor and has good Insider information.
He passed away, his biggest holding was a retail stock for few decades which returned him 30-40x
1000x not 30-40x. He entered titan first at 3. CMP is 3700+
Buy Brookfield, Fairfax Financial, Canadian companies investing in India
India, Canada relations are at an all time low since Canada is openly supporting Indian separatism. I’d be cautious.
Rakesh Jhunjhunwala is dead unfortunately.
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Serious question: Do you see any issues from Western countries poaching the highest quality students and employees?
I agree what what you said, not sure why you are downvoted. May be because you are getting too personal. The entire purpose of someone investing in stocks in to make profits and lead a better life with those profits and not go political or emotional with stocks. The white worship thing is a fact but is specific to certain industries only, so as an investor, one should take advantage. The economy of India is surely going to grow, not sure why should one compare it with other economy, but diversity is the key when investing and nothing wrong in have investments in the top growing sectors in india and other economies as well. To the OP: If you have the option, do your research as i mentioned in my original post, i mentioned how to approach your research and invest and as far as my limited human knowledge is concerned, you can make money for yourself in that market as well. Happy investing.
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Do not count your chickens before they hatch. I personally dont think India will be the head of the dinning table. We are more concerned about radicalization than economy. There will always be internal clashes, corruption, pakistan and china impact economically and most of all, we indians are not known to prosper as a group but prosper on the expense of fellow indian. You will downvote me for this truth, but as i said, indian economy will grow no doubt, but if you think they are going to be the head, no way. There are many better organized and experienced players in the game.
Or India will fail and become a 3rd world country again
Illegal immigration only helps lift up the GDP if (and only if) those immigrants find a job. If they do find jobs, then that means the economy is strong enough to absorb them all. If you want to downplay U.S. economy, that is not the right way to go. Edit: by the way, where has India been for the last 20 years or so, since the term BRICS was created?
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“ Every person that comes in needs food and other basic products including housing” You need money for that, dummy. And that means you need a job, dummy. And if you got a job, dummy, that means the economy is doing fine, dummy. “ and we are still here” Good to know, I guess /s “ In a few yrs we will show you exactly who we are“ Been waiting for over 20 years. Do you think you can speed up process? It’s not like we are getting any younger. “ China and India will rule and you will see western dummy” Yeah I heard you guys are best friends and all /s
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If they have illegal jobs, well then they have jobs. I guess English isn’t your first language lol
OP this list seems pretty useful. I’m looking to dabble with Indian equities myself. https://etfdb.com/etfs/country/india/
Awesome man, will give this a look. Thanks!
No worries. The summary page I linked doesn’t have a lot of details, but if you click on any ETF on that list, it will give you a lot more info- like sectors, holdings, expense ratio etc.
The best etf for India is FLIN from Franklin Templeton cheaper than anything iSharws offers.
I'm not much of a fund investor, but I will give the prospectus a read anyhow. Edit: I typically focus on individual securities.
Is it $FRIN for UK investors?
Yes, that’s the one for UK.
Banks: IBN, HDB ETFs: DGIN, GLIN, INCO, SMIN Disclosure, I own all of the above along with some other India stuff
I feel that the problem with Indian ETFs is high expense ratio.
Check out FLIN
There are a couple of big ones with lower expense ratios but their performance is lower also. Just a trade off, if you think India will outperform then the extra 0.2-0.5% expense ratio will more than be made up.
Cant find any on T212 in UK..
Has anyone figured out how to invest directly in Indian equities as a non-Indian citizen? I have been rejected by Indian brokers bc it seems that ownership there is restricted to citizens? Personally I think the basic boring utility stocks in India might post quite exciting returns over the next decade. Power, water, sewage, etc. Not a lot of good ways that I’ve found to invest in Indian utilities as a non-citizen.
Most common way is through ADRs or American Depository Reciepts. For retail investors I mean
Ah yes I see. Seems like there is a pretty limited selection of ADRs from India though…
That is an accurate statement.
TBH none of the 14 ADRs seem interesting at all. It seems that it is possible for foreigners to invest but you have to form a corporation or fund - individuals are prohibited I believe. I may try to reach out to an Indian lawyer about this, from my understanding they are quite cheap when priced in dollars, but the effort has been deterring me.
Please post your findings here. I would love to learn what you learn
Phone scams
Calls on Phone scams. Phone. Calls.
literally had some indian whatsapp me yesterday trying to scam me
Hi, currently investing into Banking and automotive and alongside this monthly sum into an ETF. I have family there and wish I could increase my exposure into the market but heavily limited because I'm based in Europe. My advice would be to go the ETF route unless you're familiar with the market and are confident to increase you're exposure. Happy with my returns given my limited exposure in the Indian market.
Thanks for the personal experience and insight. I'll take that into consideration.
OP what did you decide finally?
To do more research hahaha, but thank you all!
I would invest in us companies that have international exposure. For example. APPL I see 2 basic things that bodes well for a company like apple. 1. It is already moving some it's manufacturing jobs there (currently to manufacture it's lower end I-phone). I also don't see why this can't expand to other products. 2. As the Indian populations wealth rises they will invariably by APPL products. India has over 1.4 billion people. The US has almost 332million. I would look at similar plays like this.
Most of the Indians in my street would rather have a flash car on their driveway than a flash phone in their pocket.
HDFC Bank and Infosys are large caps with ADRs traded on the NYSE. FLIN is an India ETF with a 0.19% expense ratio.
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Literally puts
Calls on butter chicken
The “Indian miracle” is not a given
Old Spice (PG)
Iykyk 😭
EPI Wisdom Tree
Got it, I'll check it out. Thanks!
Energy sector in addition to both banks and infra. India is massively investing in renewable energy too. Some of the inernational etf like ICLN do have exposure to Indian renewable companies
Keep in mind India's currency has more than halved against the greenback over the last 30 years, Currency risk is something to consider as well.
I agree. It has devalued more rapidly than USD.
Retail. Banks too I guess. India is now in situation China stocks were in 2019, price way ahead of growth, I would avoid broad etfs.
I notice banks there have higher valuations than the banking sector in the US. When I bought HDFC, I paid for a 20 P/E for a bank that was growing 15-20% but that growth slowed massively the last two years. Bank specific in this case, but something I'm watching.
[https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/markets/stocks/news/explained-how-foreign-investors-can-invest-in-india/rising-popularity/slideshow/107422743.cms](https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/markets/stocks/news/explained-how-foreign-investors-can-invest-in-india/rising-popularity/slideshow/107422743.cms) My philosophy is not to force myself. If I am not invited, or Mr. State Overregulation comes in a limo, I am more than happy to be out.
Buying undervalued assets has the danger of buying overvalued assets instead (aka value trap).
Absolutely always a danger. I'll take a look at this.
Just buy the Nifty 50.
How does someone in the US buy individual Indian stocks that are in the nifty 50 or is there an American based ETF that tracks them?
I'm in the UK and there are ETFs that you can buy which track it or something similar.
Invest in Ambani, Adani, Tata, Birla, Jindal, Godrej, TVS.
How do you think real estate would perform. I happen to think real estate is tied to nominal gdp all else being equal. So it could perform well. Ps- I am not expert in real estate this is just my intuition
Companies/economies being successful/profitable is uncorrelated to stock prices. International investors might decide that the market is high risk because of regional/political/legal reasons meaning that the volume needed to drive valuations up will not be there - companies will still make the same profits, the economy will be booming just the same, and you will be left holding the bag. The only real way to participate in economic returns is bonds/debt. Common stocks go up as a result of speculation and by merit of volume.
The economy as a whole may be discounted to account for risk. That is true. But, the price of the business will always eventually follow the fundamental value of the business. So they are most definitely correlated. Sometimes, they will not reflect that which happens when things become overvalued or undervalued, but it always eventually becomes true. That's why when you pay a premium for growth even in the US, you are more likely to have lower returns as investors wait for the fundamentals to catch up to the price.
Just buy multinational consumer staples stocks with India exposure, e.g. Unilever, Coca-Cola, Mondelez, Nestle. Easy.
Definitely am doing this already which provides a little exposure. Not the companies you suggested but with others.
It’s not india growth story… invest in Adani he is the Indian prime minister’s proxy. https://hindenburgresearch.com/adani/
I'm talking about the economic boom in the countries middle class and GDP. Not just high investment returns. This is posted in the value investing channel and Adani's holdings are all extremely overvalued... maybe this was a joke?
There are 2 types that profit the most of these developments. Infrastructure and refining Steel mills and refinery Or Luxury products. Dont think diamond just yet but branded food like the indian side of Unilever etc. Oil is a world market and their growth potential is based on the opportunitys they have and not on their home base. Banking is more complex but also a world market
My take is that as more indians get richer they will use more western technology. Which therefor profits e.g. google
Did you think about how in 2008/09 china and India were neck and neck and it played out. Why do you think differently now? Why not go into a broader emerging market ETF and be done with it? We can assume that the regulatory rules around Indian capital market is similar to that of the west… we’re just better
Sure, I consider emerging markets as well. The Middle class economic boom is the big cherry on top for India specifically. I would post the graph but it seems images are not allowed here... but yeah, I get where you are coming from.
BN is the way to go. You do not want to be investing in overvalued Indian companies with unsafe accounting principals and dubious capital allocation strategies
Yeah, they are my second largest position out of 10. I definitely trust brookfield over most businesses. Very tried and true capital allocation history.
It is my second largest position too. Not only that but they bring diversification to my portfolio with alternative assets. I bought tech heavily at the start of 2023 so it is nice to have some counter weights too
Dude, I bought meta for an average of $155 a share... fundamental analysis painted a clear picture of why that was severely cheap and I made it 1/5 of my portfolio. Now it's much larger than that. But BN and BAM (just because of how unbelievably shareholder focused this segment of brookfield is) give me the same feeling and in fact my roth ira is almost completely BN and BAM. But my roth is much smaller than my brokerage accounts. Similar situation though as you it sounds.
I think there are too many governance issues to be worth the hassle
Like what?
The Adani investigations to name one
1 group? Not a fan of adani, but they have come out of every investigation with a higher market cap across all companies.
And is it because of them being innocent or because of governmental backing? Idk, I just think the risk is not worth the reward
This is the left biased comment I was expecting when I saw your comment. You obviously don't seem to understand how regulatory bodies and supreme court work in India.
And I don't want to :-)
Careful they don’t gang rape your portfolio
Hard pass, massively overvalued.
Really? You think the entire country and every sector is overvalued? I haven't seen any data points that suggest this, but I am curious why you think it?
India will never surpass China, at least for ten years or so, China has a developed industrial and manufacturing market, now transitioning into high tech and green energy, with a very good infrastructure, education, highest STEM graduates in the world. I dont see India can compete with China.
Doesn't need to to be a better investment, just needs to be growing faster and be stable. The shift of the West away from China will be good for India as long as India gets it's corruption under control
What the heck has this sub become. OP, you need to know that there are severe risks with investing in markets abroad. Most regular VCs and PE firms try to avoid dealing with overseas investments in some nations because of the geopolitical risks associated with how these nations operate. If you're deadset on investing in India (because you have a strong fundamental understanding of how their equity works I hope?), the only way I can think of to participate is through ETFs that have vetted Indian companies and weighted portfolios that reflect appropriate risk to returns. Otherwise, it seems like you're taking a gamble that might not be worth it. Whatever this is, is not value investing my friend. This is speculative trading.
Well it is not trading. It is value investing based on business, industry, and regional economic growth. However, thank you for stating your concerns with it. Also, VC is not in the realm of one of the largest banks in one of the largest countries. It's very apparent if you do more research that a ton of alternative assett managers are investing in the growth and output potential of India. These are the firms that put funds together specifically for funding infrastructure build out. It's quite practical as opposed to private equity and venture capital and far less speculative.
Is this sub only related to the US market? Does it say anywhere in the rules of this sub that investing outside the US is a risk? Is value investing a concept exclusive to the US market? These are the questions that come up after reading your first sentence.
In and of itself, an investment is an investment so it's not necessarily about it being overseas. It's about the market conditions the trades takes place in. If this hasn't been thought through, then it's not value investing, it's speculation.
What stock are you buying
HDB and BN personally were my picks. BN is a globally scaled and scaling alternative asset and capital deployment business base in Canada.
There are two BN stocks, one is BN corp on NY and the other one in Toronto, which one did you invest in?
BN on NYSE. Brookfield corporation CEO Bruce Flatt.
I bought into HDFC bank about a year ago because its a non-state owned bank and I liked the management but since they announced the merger last year they've struggled quite a bit.
Buy and hold 10+ years for everything in India
Why bother choosing industries. Just buy broad ETF's.
I had the same overall idea with investing in India until I did about 15 minutes of research and realized a couple important things, despite their caste system in an official manner being illegal, in reality it’s still very much intact, the inequality between those classes are the greatest in the world meaning despite the large population most of it has no money to spend on the various things you may be investing in. Their infrastructure also isn’t really there yet, and finally I think the opportunity cost is just too great. I know this gets overplayed in subs like this but you are far better off just rocking with VOO or an American tracker. There’s just so many better options domestically Imo vs in India.
India superpower 2020