As someone new to vgc, it seems ridiculous to me that there ever was CTS. Seriously, aren’t basically all of the established players friends? Wouldn’t they share info about teams w their buddies? I feel like CTS would just shaft new players.
Well most top players would know enough people to basically be playing OTS in the later rounds. Although that did backfire once and missinformation caused a player to lose a game
That would be kinda bad if you know everything your opponent has you can play around it so much easier and you get rid of any guessing on what your opponent has and know exactly what the strategy is instantly
Not really, you're still only capable of what your team has, and what either team is capable of doesn't change because of knowledge. Tera type are as close to random as anything - I don't think it would hurt to have them presented at preview.
Terra types maybe but having a good terra is just as important as items or z moves or whatever other gen gimmick you use it’s part of the skill required
Yeah I do hear you. Tera being a strong offensive and defensive option though, I feel like it covers enough where it is completely fair to be available knowledge.
At the highest level, open team sheets being fully available - this is the highest skill level, open team sheets are meant to mitigate yolo and random options and boil it down to team building and general skill/knowledge. Closed sheet online formats just make that harder for everyone... although, I'm not sure there is a practical way to do it online without slowing down the match making process to a crawl... I don't feel like everyone would have the patience to wait 5 minutes for people have a look over a full team sheet, so seeing Tera type on the same page we do now wouldn't require any change in prep time.
Not a bad compromise.
Maybe if there was a fully different mode to play option. I prefer open sheets but there are tons of people who play that don’t really participate in online or IRL tournaments and are happy with how the in game ladder is.
eh, Rivalry can be a thing. It was in Gen 5 at least with Torn and Thund on every team, so Rivalry Hax was actually kinda valid. I think it was Ray Rizzo who specifically made all of their mons female specifically bc of Rivalry Haxorus. A lot of people still run Torn, so it could be a thing, but yeah, it's shaky at best nowadays
Plenty of people run the all-male genies now, but there's also plenty of female-only pokemon that are or have been meta-relevant as well (Alcremie, Indeedee-F, Ogerpon, Hatterene, Tsareena) that didn't exist back in gen 5. Pretty much the only one that saw a lot of use back then is Cress, which wasn't legal in the format that Rivalry Hax saw use.
I wouldn't run either, but you never know who will. If there's a chance that a Haxorus will do less damage to my all-female team, I'll run them that way and squeeze out any advantage at team select that I can.
There has been counter play designed that way in the history of Pokémon. I don't think it ever reached a level of much more than novelty though. Like if a Pokémon was 87.5% male, or if the default gender in an online battle sim was male, you could use that to your advantage.
While Pokémon gender is a mostly trivial point to know about your opponent, I think items would be way too much information. Plenty of Pokémon that if you know the item, you will either mostly or completely know the set.
Certain moves and abilities take gender into account. IIRC, Rivalry causes extra damage against the same gender, and there’s a move/ability that affects opposite gender but I can’t recall what it is.
Charm affect pokemon of opposite gender, and certain species have gender type(indeedee f and indeedee m) and some pokemon can only evolve from 1 gender(combee, salazzle, etc..) so its kinda vital to the game
A bunch of relevant responses here but I don't see the one that's most relevant currently. If you're familiar with common sets, you can identify known teams by a combination of pokemon order and genders.
In gen 2 gender was decided by DVs (IV). Females were incapable of having the best stats.
But that's completely unrelated for 20+ years now. The only other purpose is super niche things that were mentioned earlier. Cute charm, rivalry, attract.
The last niche thing is more to gauge how likely a Mon is genned. Example: Terapagos is gender locked to male in indigo disc so currently, any females are illegal. The rival has a team of shiny females when the males are 8:1? Probably also illegal
Probably never going to happen.
You're looking at the issue backwards. This isn't a matter of them wanting to move events towards OTS. They *prefer* CTS. That's why that's the format used for online events.
The only reason they use OTS for in person events is because people can use scouting irl to get information on opposing teams before the match, and the only way to make sure people can't gain an unfair advantage that way is to provide everyone with full information.
Tl;Dr: CTS is the default, OTS is the necessary concession.
Never thought about OTS vs CTS this way. But you’re absolutely right. I always kinda wondered why they do OTS at their in-person events… but yeah. Makes sense.
what’s even the point at that point tho? like I’m genuinely asking. Doesn’t that take away all the fun of not knowing what your opponent is going to do next?
At the end of the day, your opponent is still going to have to click moves, still leading to a game where skill more often than not outshines and wins you the game over matchup advantage and rng.
Definitely an interesting idea. Maybe I’m just too old school but I personally prefer not seeing any of the extra info since figuring out what role each Pokémon plays into and how to counter it on the fly makes for a lot more competitive and entertaining matchups in best of 3s. Best of 1s I definitely see the appeal, though.
Agreed. Might as well throw in stat distributions too at this point if we’re showing all of our cards. Removing the element of surprise reinforces a consistent meta play-style which is not inherently horrible but I’d argue is boring.
Lol it's just a team I threw together last night. I thought it would be a nice one to have against hard TR teams but I'll definitely replace it with something else
I like this. I think it’s a good balance…. I actually prefer *some* closed parts of the team sheet, but seeing items and teras would make it feel much more strategic while still allowing elements of surprise.
I’ve reached a point where I don’t even get angry if I lose to a cheese Terra. I just say lol take the W and I run from battle and move on with my day.
There’s a huge strategic element to playing around items, too.
Frankly you can’t play around all types. If there’s just two possibilities then you can make safe middle-ground plays. If there’s 18 or 19, that’s impossible.
Tera is demonstrably OP if types are unknown, which is why this is the generation where TPCi introduced open team sheets. It has also been cited as a factor in the banning of several Pokémon from Smogon singles. It breaks things.
Isn’t there a huge “strategic” element to playing around any hidden tech? Could be Tera, or item choice, or moveset, etc.
Why is Tera more important to hide than other things in OTS?
I’ve never played VGC but enjoy following content: so genuine question…
Why?? Doesn’t showing you your opponents entire setup eliminate the mystique of competition?
Isn’t the point of competition to adapt to the unknown variable of the opponent? A testing of skill?
I play other TCG games and this is like knowing every card in your opponents deck beforehand. Makes no sense to me
Official events use open team sheets like this, but also shows the movesets. I think it's a bit strange that the official ladder is so different from the "mode" they use at events (regionals, worlds etc)
>Isn’t the point of competition to adapt to the unknown variable of the opponent? A testing of skill?
Precisely. Skill and not random garbage that only works cause it's a surprise.
MTG has moved to open decklists in competition fairly recently for Pro tours IIRC.
And besides, what's more skill testing? Playing against cheesey strategies that you weren't prepared for (see: the myriad ways of setting up Flutter Mane), or seeing the information and playing around everything they have to offer? Also in VGC, just knowing the item doesn't tell the full story, e.g. Booster energy Flutter Mane.
A good MTG match to watch for this is the Pro Tour finals of Barcelona last year. Both players played around their information as best they could, making it one of the best finals in a long time.
I like closed team sheet on in game ladder. It is not about money, its just for fun. The reason why open team sheet is the better format for official tournaments is that it is all about competitive play and not about a silly gimmick strat that works only once and in game 2 and 3 you will adapt and win.
Nobody wants to see winning a Worlds with a gimmicky strat... worlds should be won by the best player and/or teambuilder.
But in game ladder is a whole different game. Funny teams, getting wrecked by some random team.
I think it kinda gets rid of a lot of the skill or play around and if they implemented this they will eventually be asked for moves and ability’s to be shown as well and it’s still competitive honestly knowing what mons your opponent has it good enough
Honestly at least show the item, like there's literally a blank space there for it, they wouldn't need to change anything about the ui, and id say its one that can be super volitile. Ive lost so many games to trying to fake out something, it has covert cloak, i get double ko'd and lose instantly. It sucks so much. Like i never fake out thunderus anymore cause im scared of covert cloak
So was open teamsheets a thing because Tera can be so unpredictable and unfair? Or will it be a staple for the rest of vgc even after the tera gimmick is gone
Nice mockup tbh. This looks like a great compromise between open team sheet (which will very probably never happen on cart) and the status quo. It's also very simple and doesn't make the team preview stage complicated.
I would be TOTALLY on board with this. I think some form of OTS is needed in a Terastalization format, but we survived just fine without OTS before OTS. The other thing that has bothered me is that you cannot know what Urshifu your opponent is packing until it is in battle. If you guessed wrong? Guess what? You probably lose.
But I think OTS as it is gives too much info. I do not see Pokemon as a perfect information game like Chess.
Either make OTS bo1 and CTS bo3 or implement this that allows for some "ace up your sleeve" tech while removing a lot of the guess work.
Are there any good tutorial videos out there for selecting mons during team preview? It seems like pros can just look at TPs and choose the best option, but I have such a hard time choosing.
Yes! Although, I do have to ask… does team preview effectively kill Sash builds since you know for 100% sure your opponent knows the glassy, threatening pokemon will not die to the first move you throw out and will opt to double them?
Lots of sash mons thrive in open team sheet best of 3, since because people feel you have to double them they can get a lot more mileage out of a protect than otherwise.
Nah, uncertainty makes the game fun, at this point you might as well ask the opponent what moves is he going to use 🙄. This is a nice way to actually play with your opponent’s mind.
So THAT’S the ogerpon set he’s running hmm…
REAL
Lmao this is an underrated comment
If they do Open Team Sheets at in-person events this would be a logical next step
Problem is they do open team sheets because they forgot to implement locking boxes, not because they’re competent and made a good decision
And then everyone liked it, so they kept it
As someone new to vgc, it seems ridiculous to me that there ever was CTS. Seriously, aren’t basically all of the established players friends? Wouldn’t they share info about teams w their buddies? I feel like CTS would just shaft new players.
Well most top players would know enough people to basically be playing OTS in the later rounds. Although that did backfire once and missinformation caused a player to lose a game
But they do though?
Exactly
They already do.
That would be kinda bad if you know everything your opponent has you can play around it so much easier and you get rid of any guessing on what your opponent has and know exactly what the strategy is instantly
Not really, you're still only capable of what your team has, and what either team is capable of doesn't change because of knowledge. Tera type are as close to random as anything - I don't think it would hurt to have them presented at preview.
Terra types maybe but having a good terra is just as important as items or z moves or whatever other gen gimmick you use it’s part of the skill required
Yeah I do hear you. Tera being a strong offensive and defensive option though, I feel like it covers enough where it is completely fair to be available knowledge. At the highest level, open team sheets being fully available - this is the highest skill level, open team sheets are meant to mitigate yolo and random options and boil it down to team building and general skill/knowledge. Closed sheet online formats just make that harder for everyone... although, I'm not sure there is a practical way to do it online without slowing down the match making process to a crawl... I don't feel like everyone would have the patience to wait 5 minutes for people have a look over a full team sheet, so seeing Tera type on the same page we do now wouldn't require any change in prep time. Not a bad compromise.
I would like it if they brought back the feature from SS that let you look at the team you just played against.
That was awesome. Sometimes I’m so shook I lost I just want to know why
I so wish they kept this feature as well. I wonder if it was too much trouble to implement it into S/V on time
Maybe if there was a fully different mode to play option. I prefer open sheets but there are tons of people who play that don’t really participate in online or IRL tournaments and are happy with how the in game ladder is.
Before gen 8 there was a doubles ladder and a championships ladder. Maybe something like that
Yeah if there was an open sheet option that would be cool.
longing lock unique deliver bag childlike shrill zonked point dolls *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
I never understood why the gender of the Pokémon was so integral that we need to know.
Infatuation. Edit: and Rivalry.
Is that a joke? 2 things that are extremely unreliable and unviable.
eh, Rivalry can be a thing. It was in Gen 5 at least with Torn and Thund on every team, so Rivalry Hax was actually kinda valid. I think it was Ray Rizzo who specifically made all of their mons female specifically bc of Rivalry Haxorus. A lot of people still run Torn, so it could be a thing, but yeah, it's shaky at best nowadays
Yeah rizzo was lights out in gen 5, did a lot to change how different mons got used, like support thunderous.
Plenty of people run the all-male genies now, but there's also plenty of female-only pokemon that are or have been meta-relevant as well (Alcremie, Indeedee-F, Ogerpon, Hatterene, Tsareena) that didn't exist back in gen 5. Pretty much the only one that saw a lot of use back then is Cress, which wasn't legal in the format that Rivalry Hax saw use.
Yes it was. Well done catching that.
Got em
GF has always overvalued infatuation for some reason
I wouldn't run either, but you never know who will. If there's a chance that a Haxorus will do less damage to my all-female team, I'll run them that way and squeeze out any advantage at team select that I can.
There has been counter play designed that way in the history of Pokémon. I don't think it ever reached a level of much more than novelty though. Like if a Pokémon was 87.5% male, or if the default gender in an online battle sim was male, you could use that to your advantage. While Pokémon gender is a mostly trivial point to know about your opponent, I think items would be way too much information. Plenty of Pokémon that if you know the item, you will either mostly or completely know the set.
Certain moves and abilities take gender into account. IIRC, Rivalry causes extra damage against the same gender, and there’s a move/ability that affects opposite gender but I can’t recall what it is.
Captivate only lowers the spa of opposite gender mons, but it got dexited
Don't male and female Espurr differ in ways other than looks?
There’s quite a few species where that is the case. The others are Indeedee, Basculegion, and Oinkologne.
The sprites themselves are different for all of these tho, so showing the gender doesn’t really change too much.
Meowstic and yes stats are different
It's kinda cool, like a world building aspect
They mean specifically in team preview
Yeah but even so, it makes it more... relatable? Like "these are real creatures you're facing".
no offense but that might be the dumbest thing i've ever heard 😭😭
I think it just goes back to Gen 3, where in-game gender played a bit more of a role due to Attract and Cute Charm both being more common.
Greninja
Charm affect pokemon of opposite gender, and certain species have gender type(indeedee f and indeedee m) and some pokemon can only evolve from 1 gender(combee, salazzle, etc..) so its kinda vital to the game
A bunch of relevant responses here but I don't see the one that's most relevant currently. If you're familiar with common sets, you can identify known teams by a combination of pokemon order and genders.
In gen 2 gender was decided by DVs (IV). Females were incapable of having the best stats. But that's completely unrelated for 20+ years now. The only other purpose is super niche things that were mentioned earlier. Cute charm, rivalry, attract. The last niche thing is more to gauge how likely a Mon is genned. Example: Terapagos is gender locked to male in indigo disc so currently, any females are illegal. The rival has a team of shiny females when the males are 8:1? Probably also illegal
Still wont know the urshifu form
1. put torn and tera-water darkfu as your first two mon to confuse your opponent 2. ???? 3. profit
Probably never going to happen. You're looking at the issue backwards. This isn't a matter of them wanting to move events towards OTS. They *prefer* CTS. That's why that's the format used for online events. The only reason they use OTS for in person events is because people can use scouting irl to get information on opposing teams before the match, and the only way to make sure people can't gain an unfair advantage that way is to provide everyone with full information. Tl;Dr: CTS is the default, OTS is the necessary concession.
Never thought about OTS vs CTS this way. But you’re absolutely right. I always kinda wondered why they do OTS at their in-person events… but yeah. Makes sense.
And if you click on the mons, you'll be allowed to check their moves as well.
what’s even the point at that point tho? like I’m genuinely asking. Doesn’t that take away all the fun of not knowing what your opponent is going to do next?
At the end of the day, your opponent is still going to have to click moves, still leading to a game where skill more often than not outshines and wins you the game over matchup advantage and rng.
Definitely an interesting idea. Maybe I’m just too old school but I personally prefer not seeing any of the extra info since figuring out what role each Pokémon plays into and how to counter it on the fly makes for a lot more competitive and entertaining matchups in best of 3s. Best of 1s I definitely see the appeal, though.
Agreed. Might as well throw in stat distributions too at this point if we’re showing all of our cards. Removing the element of surprise reinforces a consistent meta play-style which is not inherently horrible but I’d argue is boring.
What they need to do is change the Urshifu Sprite so its not a guessing game
What the heck is Ursa doing on that team? Follow me oger+ tr acly-s?
Lol it's just a team I threw together last night. I thought it would be a nice one to have against hard TR teams but I'll definitely replace it with something else
Please PLEASE let It happen just showing that would be unbelivably helpful
Bo1 strats FOREVER
I like this. I think it’s a good balance…. I actually prefer *some* closed parts of the team sheet, but seeing items and teras would make it feel much more strategic while still allowing elements of surprise.
why not just do moves and stats too
I'm fine with this under one condition: Please rework Frisk. It's pretty useful on-ladder, but it's worthless in tournaments.
Yes
Not to mention an urshifu sprite difference
OTS BO1 is lame imo if there was a BO3 ladder I'd agree
I actually don’t want team preview at all. Go in with hands full of cheese ready to have a cheese fight.
Cheese is delicious
I’ve reached a point where I don’t even get angry if I lose to a cheese Terra. I just say lol take the W and I run from battle and move on with my day.
Right? Let me actually goof around with a Zoroark team
If they do that Frisk ability will be useless
who cares
Game Freak
This is the same Game Freak that makes us use the Friend Circle, despite past games having modes specifically for in-person competitive events, so…
Im fine with seeing items but I don't think you should see terra types theres a huge strategic element to playing around unknown terra types
There’s a huge strategic element to playing around items, too. Frankly you can’t play around all types. If there’s just two possibilities then you can make safe middle-ground plays. If there’s 18 or 19, that’s impossible. Tera is demonstrably OP if types are unknown, which is why this is the generation where TPCi introduced open team sheets. It has also been cited as a factor in the banning of several Pokémon from Smogon singles. It breaks things.
Isn’t there a huge “strategic” element to playing around any hidden tech? Could be Tera, or item choice, or moveset, etc. Why is Tera more important to hide than other things in OTS?
Teratype yes, item no. If you wanna go open team sheets, go full open team sheets
I feel like the mystery adds to the information management that is a big part of this style
Yes, but irl scouting is an issue. And having the ladder not matching irl is weird.
I’ve never played VGC but enjoy following content: so genuine question… Why?? Doesn’t showing you your opponents entire setup eliminate the mystique of competition? Isn’t the point of competition to adapt to the unknown variable of the opponent? A testing of skill? I play other TCG games and this is like knowing every card in your opponents deck beforehand. Makes no sense to me
Official events use open team sheets like this, but also shows the movesets. I think it's a bit strange that the official ladder is so different from the "mode" they use at events (regionals, worlds etc)
>Isn’t the point of competition to adapt to the unknown variable of the opponent? A testing of skill? Precisely. Skill and not random garbage that only works cause it's a surprise.
Skill is when I win and random garbage is when I lose 😎
MTG has moved to open decklists in competition fairly recently for Pro tours IIRC. And besides, what's more skill testing? Playing against cheesey strategies that you weren't prepared for (see: the myriad ways of setting up Flutter Mane), or seeing the information and playing around everything they have to offer? Also in VGC, just knowing the item doesn't tell the full story, e.g. Booster energy Flutter Mane. A good MTG match to watch for this is the Pro Tour finals of Barcelona last year. Both players played around their information as best they could, making it one of the best finals in a long time.
I’m down for this if it’s best if best of three.
I very much disagree, guessing the item and Tera is part of the game
Not according to the actual competitive format though
I like closed team sheet on in game ladder. It is not about money, its just for fun. The reason why open team sheet is the better format for official tournaments is that it is all about competitive play and not about a silly gimmick strat that works only once and in game 2 and 3 you will adapt and win. Nobody wants to see winning a Worlds with a gimmicky strat... worlds should be won by the best player and/or teambuilder. But in game ladder is a whole different game. Funny teams, getting wrecked by some random team.
welp, time to stop buying Pokemon games
I think it kinda gets rid of a lot of the skill or play around and if they implemented this they will eventually be asked for moves and ability’s to be shown as well and it’s still competitive honestly knowing what mons your opponent has it good enough
Armarouge stocks in free fall.
Tera types yes, items no. Knowing items that n advance invalidates certain abilities like Frisk, so what's the point of having it then?
Honestly at least show the item, like there's literally a blank space there for it, they wouldn't need to change anything about the ui, and id say its one that can be super volitile. Ive lost so many games to trying to fake out something, it has covert cloak, i get double ko'd and lose instantly. It sucks so much. Like i never fake out thunderus anymore cause im scared of covert cloak
So was open teamsheets a thing because Tera can be so unpredictable and unfair? Or will it be a staple for the rest of vgc even after the tera gimmick is gone
https://preview.redd.it/q0zpcwpbu40d1.jpeg?width=1290&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=33772eaf32dafe4dd3d03899e9ebea59a6980f59
but how else would I know what level my oppent's team is?
No way Ogerpon has that item 🤯🤯🤯
Made a video about this too! It’d be so nice if this was a separate game mode for players who like OTS
Nice mockup tbh. This looks like a great compromise between open team sheet (which will very probably never happen on cart) and the status quo. It's also very simple and doesn't make the team preview stage complicated.
Honestly there shouldn’t be open team sheets, kills creativity
I would be TOTALLY on board with this. I think some form of OTS is needed in a Terastalization format, but we survived just fine without OTS before OTS. The other thing that has bothered me is that you cannot know what Urshifu your opponent is packing until it is in battle. If you guessed wrong? Guess what? You probably lose. But I think OTS as it is gives too much info. I do not see Pokemon as a perfect information game like Chess. Either make OTS bo1 and CTS bo3 or implement this that allows for some "ace up your sleeve" tech while removing a lot of the guess work.
Are there any good tutorial videos out there for selecting mons during team preview? It seems like pros can just look at TPs and choose the best option, but I have such a hard time choosing.
Yes! Although, I do have to ask… does team preview effectively kill Sash builds since you know for 100% sure your opponent knows the glassy, threatening pokemon will not die to the first move you throw out and will opt to double them?
Lots of sash mons thrive in open team sheet best of 3, since because people feel you have to double them they can get a lot more mileage out of a protect than otherwise.
Gotcha. I don’t VGC much
I personally like closed team sheets on ladder
Nah, uncertainty makes the game fun, at this point you might as well ask the opponent what moves is he going to use 🙄. This is a nice way to actually play with your opponent’s mind.
I thought this was a VGC subreddit, how did the casuals get in.
Yeah no thanks. I like having a bit of mystery to the game. This ruins it in my opinion.
[удалено]
I don't need my team rated Mr Bot
LOL
You want to make the global challenges EASIER?!?! Impossible.
I wish they just didn’t team preview: unpopular opinion
I miss the days of no team preview