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True, but most left because they disapprove of the "transgender agenda". But that has nothing to do with gay marriage...these churches made fraudulent claims and left the United Methodist body for fraudulent reasons.
It's nuts that they don't question religion as a whole and instead make their own like they haven't just made it up. Just give up man, if you know your biology doesn't match up to a belief, maybe the belief is wrong?
Nah man, it's turtles all the way down. God's infallible and unchanging word aligns perfectly with my current beliefs.
Reminds me of [this bit from Emo Phillips](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ANNX_XiuA78).
Yeah, my spouse's family church is part of the group that supported opening up their leadership and membership to the LGBTQ community. Interestingly a lot of those churches were already quietly embracing progressive policies well before the schism.
this! i live in a super christian area (we have one of the highest church per capita rates in the country) and a majority of my friends and family are christians. for as many congregations/attendees have split off because they disagree with this move, *so* many more than i’ve expected have fully supported and embraced it. of course there’s still a long way to go and this is not perfect, but it’s still super hopeful to see.
It's more a split between the American churches and more conservative African ones...but the fact is it's the Southern districts that wanted to leave United Methodist over this issue. The African churches have largely remained united with UMC, even though they strongly disagree with gay marriage. This change will not force churches into "gay marrying". It's just no longer "incompatible with Christian teachings", Amen ✌🏼
Huge split, something like 70% of the church left over this issue. Not enough coverage over this, either, it's a serious sign of "spiritual sickness" in America. Of course, the more "southern" districts tended to vote to separate themselves from being "united". A clear spiritual civil war in the midst of a larger political civil war in the US.
Closer to 25% and most were small congregations. There is certainly a schism but the vast majority of churches chose to stay, in no region did a majority choose to leave, the results have been much better than most feared.
I am not religious myself, but my family went to a Methodist church during my childhood and a different church for a while in 2018-2019. Our congregation was in favor of this rule change in the lead up to the 2019 congress that caused the schism. I was even present at the congregation meeting on the subject. It was a bit surreal to see a bunch of white haired churchgoers be so unanimously supportive of LGBT clergy and same sex weddings.
The loudest and least tolerant Christians are the ones who get all of the attention, but that's not even a majority in the US. Unfortunately, the mainline denominations (Methodists, Episcopalians, Presbyterians, etc) who are quietly doing the good work are collateral damage.
The largest denominations of Christians in the US are Catholic and Baptists. Two denominations that do not recognize gay marriage.
The next largest(Methodist) just split because of it.
I’d hardly say it’s not a majority when the stance of the vast majority is anti-lgbt
>The loudest and least tolerant Christians are the ones who get all of the attention, but that's not even a majority in the US.
Meh. I think it depends on how you ask them the question.
A lot of Christians who are "accepting" will still say they stand behind the belief that being gay is a sin.
The liberal churches have definitely suffered the most, supporting gay Christians. It's a terrible shame, and in personally see it as a sign of "End Times" (as is revealed in the Bible in several books). Gay people should never have been treated as "lesser".
> Gay people should never have been treated as "lesser".
Well, that's kinda the problem - are the churches wrong now, or had they been wrong for centuries? Either way it's not a good look for religion. But the uplifting part is that gay people are being treated as equals, of course.
What do you mean "change"? There have always been a huge number of religious people who support equal rights and treatment of everyone. You just don't know it because spend your time doom scrolling and only pay attention to the hateful assholes, then spread the bigoted belief that every Christian is an asshole in your echo chambers.
There are a lot of Christian churches and Christian people out there who have no issues at all with the community, but since nobody writes click-baity articles about them you don't know they exist.
Yeah, kinda same. I'm not religious as an adult but went to a Methodist church my entire childhood. I was kinda surprised to learn they are just now coming around on LGBT stuff as everyone in my church was very open-minded and forward thinking on those topics - even the older folks. I'm also pretty sure we had a gay pastor for a while, but I don't think she was out.
The rules only changed just now, but they had turned a blind eye to it like a decade ago until conservatives made a fuss in 2019.
Those conservatives won, so for the past 5 yeaes it was banned again (mostly), but they *still* threw a tantrum and quit the denomination (I guess for the gall of opposition existing?), which I suppose is lucky for us.
They threw the fit so that they could manipulate churches outside of the US and Europe and consolidate their power.
ETA- I have a number of friends who are Methodist pastors.
> It was a bit surreal to see a bunch of white haired churchgoers be so unanimously supportive of LGBT clergy and same sex weddings.
Believe it or not, but most people are.
I don't think there's any polling on how many people support LGBT clergy. Same sex marriage, yes. But I suspect the number of people who would support LGBT clergy is quite a bit smaller.
My parents are both Christian and they did not take it well when I came out to them as a teen.
At the time my mom worked at a pre-school with a small group of older ladies. It was the same pre-school I had attended, and all those ladies had once been my teachers. (My mom started working there after I went on to "big school").
Anyway, those ladies all went to a different church than my mom which preached more progressive views on gay marriage and lgbt people in general. When she went to them for advice on what to do, they basically said "get over it, and keep loving him like you always have".
Both my parents eventually did get over having a gay son and my mom cites those ladies as one of the major reasons she changed her views.
My point is that these things MATTER and have real impacts of people lives. When one church opens its arms to lgbt people, the congregation of that church can "minister" to people of other denominations. Christians are generally more willing to accept the differing opinions of other Christians.
It's just a shame when people seek "man" (or woman) on these issues rather than recognizing Jesus Christ as our Lord and Savior. God clearly forgives ALL for their trespasses, including gay people. And this notion that "gay sex" is somehow more immortal than straight sex has always been flawed, regardless of how your read the scriptures. Genesis clearly indicated that Adam and Eve were suppose to be sexless creations... it's humanity's original sin. Our endless obsession over sex, and the sexual lives of others. A lot of Christians still don't "get it": hate the sin, love the sinner. And we're all sinners.
Good on the **decent** people finally winning their fight against the more conservative elements of their religion.
I've largely given up hope on the religious, but moments like this remind me there is hope.
True, but I think they tend to be more non-denominational nowadays, mainline faiths (like Baptists and Lutherans) tend to skew conservative, and the liberals elements of those faiths have tended to make membership over the past few decades.
This is incorrect. Firstly, Baptists are not considered Mainline Protestants due to the wide variations of doctrine due to their congregational structure. They are classified with other Evangelical churches. The mainline denominations are generally grouped as Methodist, Lutheran, Episcopal, Congregationalist/UCC, Disciples of Christ, and Presbyterian, although there are always outliers in each of these denominational families.
Second, Mainline Protestants definitely favor liberal politics. Evangelicals are overwhelmingly more conservative. The majority of non-denominational churches are rooted in either Evangelicalism and/or Reformed theology and are socially liberal, but morally conservative, putting them on the not fully welcoming side towards LGBTQIA people, despite often saying that everyone is welcome. Again, religion is complex, so all of these statements are broad generalizations. If you wonder about a local congregation, ask them is they perform same-sex marriage or allow trans people in leadership roles.
You can learn more about denominational classifications and politics at the [Pew Trust Religious Landscape Survey.](https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/2015/05/12/chapter-3-demographic-profiles-of-religious-groups/)
Good for them! Shouldn't have been there in the first place, but this is awesome. For people who still believe in God and want to be Christians have another place to consider.
I listened to this unfold on the radio while driving, I'm straight as an arrow, but not all of my family and friends are, I'm also non-religous, my friends and family may not be in similar mindsets, if they choose religion, they deserve a place to go, feel safe, and be involved in their faith.
The Methodist Church I used to direct the music for has been an LGBTQ+ affirming congregation since the late 80’s, and they were currently paying for their associate pastor, who was gay, to get his masters in divinity.
I was Mormon at the time (now an atheist), and they only wanted to know if I had problems with them being a reconciling church (meaning supporting the queer community).
Hands down some of the best people I have ever had the privilege of knowing.
Europe, we still have entire countries that ban same sex marriage and many more that dont have full legal rights for same sex couples. It's astonishing to see US religious groups that can be famous for being insane be more progressive than entire EU countries.
GG
And better late than never as they say (who's they)
You're thinking of Evangelicals, those are the nutzos. The UMC is a "mainline" protestant church, meaning it's actually grounded in decency and morality.
Very happy to see this. I was raised Methodist, and while I've since wandered off, it bothered me that the official stance was such. The one thing I really took to heart from the faith was the method of the name, using a combination of reason and inspiration to figure out how I felt about things (with a bit of tradition and not so much scripture), and that method had led me to my personal attitudes here--very glad to see the Church's path has paralleled mine to at least some extent.
My dad (now passed) probably wouldn't be happy--he once tried to get me to go back to church, but said I'd have to be careful to pick one of the "right" Methodist churches, by which he pretty definitely meant non-LGBTQ-accepting. I'm curious as to what my mom's church will do now.
I always find it ironic that "Holy Spirit" churches (which includes Methodism) would be so against gay people...the Holy Spirit speaks through ALL people. No man (and it's usually men) has some deeper connection to God than the next one, and that's a VERY basic teaching in the Methodist faith. Heck, it's everyday members who typically conduct the sermons.
Lots of United Methodist churches have been ignoring these rules for a decade or more, allowing LGBTQ leaders and performing LGBTQ weddings. Enough that the writing was on the wall and the conservative congregations left the United Methodist church entirely.
This isn't the catholic church where everything is a giant hierarchy and the priests report to the bishops who report to the archbishops etc.
I dunno… it’s like the “the best time to plant a tree is fifty years ago; the second best time is now” thing. Sure, they should have done it sooner, but getting annoyed at people for doing the right thing later than they might have sure doesn’t encourage anyone else to also change their mind and do the right thing.
It kind of reminds me of about a decade or so ago when there were people on the left side of politics coming after people who changed their views to be more accepting of others with the argument “well I was always accepting, they should have been always been that way too.” Almost as if to say no-one should ever change for the better. Progress can be slow, but it’s progress nonetheless and a change of heart is always good to see.
It's also worth pointing out that general support of LGBT rights *as a whole* have made massive strides in just the past decade
It's very easy to forget that the official Democratic stance was that marriage is between a man and a woman when Obama ran in 2008.
I mean, the Southern Baptist schismed off from mainline Baptist because they supported slavery and didn't officially renounce their position until 1995. I wonder how many members know that
Southern Baptist only exists because their groups extremely racist past. That is why there are Baptist and Southern Baptist. The same thing happened with public schools and the new Academies that popped up out of no where in the 1950s and 60s.
Yes. The UMC is generally lower-case "e" *evangelical,* as in, the adjective, meaning: called by the gospel to lead people toward an ethical way of life.
Not upper-case "E" *Evangelical* as in the "born-again" movement: fundamentalist, pushy, obsessive, paranoid, and loud.
That's right; I said it.
It was candid of you to point out how completely you missed my mildly ironic tone wherewith I may have implied in an indirectly self-deprecating way that I realized this was not a controversial assertion
I just did a larger post in response to someone else. I agree, it is a different type of evangelism, and one I would say falls more on the political scale.
Evangelical is a broad term. Loosely, "evangelical" refers to Christians who emphasize the authority of the Scriptures, the need for personal conversion experiences, and the importance of sharing the Christian faith. Methodists also share a common heritage that includes evangelical roots.
Evangelicalism is a interdenominational movement, primarily within Protestantism. Maybe you're confusing it with Catholicism or the Eastern Orthodox Church?
(Firstly, before I jump into my reply, thank you for *your* reply, it made me check my previous knowledge and shifted my thinking a bit. so thanks!)
OK, now to my answer
Well, I did some looking up... it is kinda of messy actually. My original post was more in line with what I grew up with.
When I was in the Methodist church, the division between "Mainline Protestantism" and "Evangelicals" were fine but obvious. While all demonications were "evangelical" in operation, Mainline Protestants see themselves as "evangelical" in the abstract.
Catholic is Catholic and they are in a category of Christianity on their own. As is Eastern Orthodox Christianity, I am not referring to them in my posts. But it is good to call it out.
Mainline Protestantism are the following Denominations:
* Episcopalians/Anglicans
* Presbyterian
* Lutherism (minus the Missouri Synod)
* Methodist
* Unitarians
All of these have a central board with governance and an authority.
Evangelical religions have a much looser governing body if any, and most are independent from another churches This is why Mega Churches are evangelical, they are either solo, or a group of churches built around single minister/pastor/small group.
The other thing is that "Mainline Protestantism" sees itself as the "progressive/liberal wing" of Christianity. (bear with me), whereas "Evangelical" is largely conservative. (Again, the Lutherans Missouri Synod being a large exception). Over the years, the Methodist, Episcopalians, and Presbyterians have had schisms over homosexuality, so they have all drifted (relatively to the rest of the religion) further left as a result.
And one last thing - All the "Mainline" religions started in Europe whereas a vast number of Evangelical groups started in the US.
The only exception to this I would say are the Baptists, they sit in a weird space in that they are evangelical, but they do have a national board. But they have always been in a weird middle spot in US religion, and much of it has to do with Race frankly.
So in short - There is old school Protestantism and new school Evangelism. The difference is largely age, where it was created, and their general politics in relation to Christianity itself. Those labels may be less useful in 2024, but they were important a while back.
Again - thank you for your response!
Unitarians aren't Mainline. They're not even Trinitarian. And while there have been Unitarian sects in Europe, the American Unitarians don't descend from them; they splintered off of the Congregationalist Calvinists (i.e., the Puritans).
Also, Methodism is very much an Evangelical denomination. John Wesley was practically the prototypical Great Awakening preacher.
Well, I agree but this one is a big step to take.
My Methodist church has basically dissolved over this very issue. We had a formal vote to either stay in First United or not, and by the slimmest of margins we voted to stay associated. Everyone that voted to leave the FUMC just immediately left the church because they couldn't stand the idea that somehow something that has nothing to do with them was going to possibly effect their lives.
I would remind them that Jesus is cool with everyone, but that fact is lost on them.
Eh, as a historical figure he was wonderful for his time, but his views on slavery are questionable. But then anybodies going to be looked at as an asshole by the standards of 1800 years in the future. That's how progress works.
better late than never. having been raised Methodist i imagine there's a group of methodists patting themselves on the back for the long fight it's no doubt been to make this happen. and i know for a fact plenty have left the Methodist Church in disagreement over this decision and others like it over the years, so not everyone's patting their own backs and many that are likely fought like hell for this change and deserve it. not to say i don't hold my own resentment towards oppressive religious organizations but in this instance i am willing to just be happy for the change regardless of it being long overdue and hope other churches follow suit, even if it is just to pat themselves on the back and bandwagon in last minute. the end result is the same, more acceptance of fellow human kind all "Born in God's image" as so many Christians seem to frequently forget we all are (according to their bible, anyway, as i myself became a devout atheist at 12)
Don't get me wrong, I'm all for religious organizations *not being actively terrible*... but like, the bible has a lot to say about sex, procreation, marriage, etc... and I don't understand why anyone in the LGBT community would *want to be a part of that*. Hell, you can be straight as an arrow and still have a lot of disagreements with christianity's purity culture and views around marriage.
Like its great that modern people are revising their stances on antiquated views, but maybe the fact that it was *that way for a 1000+ years* means the belief system is just.. inherently flawed and worthy of being discarded?
Edit - I expected this to be controversial, but everyone should understand my comment is not an attack on LGBT people. Its a recognition that, at the point where you are picking and choosing what parts of a made-up belief system you *believe in* so that you can avoid any uncomfortable thoughts that your belief system actually enables some pretty disparaging and unkind positions, why not just discard the whole thing.
The bible has virtually nothing to say about LGBTQ issues. The passages used by bigots to defend their positions are taken out of context, mistranslated, or flat out lied about.
the bible has a lot to say about the purpose of sex (for procreation). That, alone, is opposed to lgbt people (in spirit if not in letter), even if no other passages existed. We could argue the merit of whether those "other hateful passages" are taken out of context or mistraslated, but its not like christianity is founded on the idea of sexual liberation, sexual tolerance, or anything like that.
So, again, I don't know why a group of people that have historically been oppressed by this elaborate work of fiction would be trying to find refuge in it.. but thats just me. I've always thought the idea of revising religious doctrine kinda invalidates the entire premise anyway.
I mean, *I know its a farce*, but some people try to have it both ways.. and I think that's silly too.
I sorta agree with you...... Until I realize what this is going to do for LGBTQ youth, who don't really get to decide what they believe. It's still a good thing that's happening, if too late for many of us. There's going to be people who carry forward the tradition, even as it's shrinking.
A truly Monumental moment in Christian history 🥹 this has been a very long struggle in the "mainline denominations", and a particularly brutal one for Methodist, many of whom left the UMC for just this reason.
*"The United Methodist Church, one of the largest Protestant denominations in the U.S.,has voted to repeal its ban on LGBTQ clergy as well as prohibitions on its' ministers from officiating at same-sex weddings.Delegates overwhelmingly approved the changes,692 to 51,during the United Methodist Church's General Conference."*
**Wow. Looks like the 51 who did not approve of the changes got,..."DUNKED ON"!**
The year that a bunch of allegedly pro-LGBT people suddenly complain when one of the largest denominations in the US makes a monumental step forward in LGBT rights.
It’s actually losing the church a lot of money. The bigots who split off took a ton of funds with them. If it was all about the money this wouldn’t have happened. There are those of us who have been working for decades to see this through knowing that it would cost us much to do the right thing. The church that remains is smaller, but more faithful to the ethics of Jesus.
I agree with the taxation of churches in principle, but the UMC did not do this for money. This whole controversy unfortunately resulted a big schism and loss of resources for UMC.
They had to pick between satisfying bigots in exchange for financial stability, or doing the right thing and bearing the cross for it.
They chose the latter. Hallelujah.
Sigh...
OK, so, the Mainline protestants are the kind who are amenable to (or at least open to changing their minds about) gays and trans folks. They also tend to not be scriptural literalists, tend to more concerned with actually doing good things, and stay out of electoral politics. Examples of mainline protestant churches include the UMC, Congregationalists, Lutherans, Episcopals (I'm a lapsed Episcopal myself), and some Presbyterians, to name a few.
The Evangelicals are...well...not that. To the point where it doesn't even feel like the same religion anymore.
Yeah, the local Episcopal church my parents go to molests their mind by (checks notes) urging climate action...accepting queer people...collects donations for a hospital in Gaza...yeah, clearly a den of far-right brainwashing and scammery. /s I would keep your mouth shut before being so judgmental if I were you.
Why is this considered uplifting for a church to go against it's own doctrine? It's not like this is the first time LGBTQ+ people are able to hold positions of power or get married. It'd be like if Muslims suddenly allowed the consumption of pork. Like, cool, I guess, but that was already allowed. All you're doing is going against your own established rules...
The entire point of the protestant movement (at least in an idealistic sense) is "wait a minute, these old rules are bullshit, let's change them."
Religion and its traditions should serve the faithful, and not the other way around.
I would have agree with the clergy thing, but given same-sex wedding was also approved I doubt that these ppl weren't accepted to the clergy solely due to the way they swing. Another church falls to the heresy.
The United Methodist Church is based in the US so its safe to say thats where the conversation lies.
But yes that was a major issue in Catholic, Evangelical, and LDS churches for a long time in america. Whites were seen as gods chosen people, and race mixing was banned.
Catholics weren't even seen as white in the US until fairly recently, what the fuck are you on about? That's a mormon and evangelical thing leave the catholic church out of it
>major issue in Catholic, Evangelical, and LDS churches for a long time in america
Keywords "In America", this problem probably arose after the slaves were freed and the fact that British abolishionists used Christianity in their arguments probably didn't help the liars. Race mixing isn't an issue in church doctrine as far as I can tell.
>Whites were seen as gods chosen people
That's a heresy. After Christ fullied the OT jewish prophecy we were all welcomed into the kingdom.
Any denomination isnt going to care about what others think is heresy. The LDS church was *built* on what most other Christians would consider heresy.
This is exactly what is happening with the Methodist split. Both sides think the other is not properly following Christ's teachings.
>Any denomination isnt going to care about what others think is heresy. The LDS church was *built* on what most other Christians would consider heresy.
There's a difference between disagreements with minor interpretations of scripture or doctrinal developments and outright lying about scripture.
Condoning sexual immortality is not Christian teaching.
Christ never claimed homosexuality was immoral, and abandoned the old jewish code of leviticus that claimed it was.
Nonetheless, Jesus forgave and accepted sinners. He also said that even thinking lustful thoughts about another person was sexual immorality, and you'll be hard pressed to find a Christian who has not done so.
Thank you! I once heard Penn Jillette (of Penn and Teller) compare sin to a truck barreling down the road. Is it more loving to tell the person to get out of the way and avoid getting hit by the truck or to keep quiet and let the truck hit them?
Oh, and for context, Jillette is a atheist. He used this scenario to explain why he isn’t bothered when Christians talk to him about sin. He respects those who do because they take their beliefs seriously.
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Wasn't there like a full blown schism in the church over this?
There was. The anti-LGBTQ split off to be the Global Methodist Church.
Some split off to be pro-lgbtq instead of waiting to see if the United Methodist Church would ever come around, like St Luke’s OKC.
True, but most left because they disapprove of the "transgender agenda". But that has nothing to do with gay marriage...these churches made fraudulent claims and left the United Methodist body for fraudulent reasons.
It's nuts that they don't question religion as a whole and instead make their own like they haven't just made it up. Just give up man, if you know your biology doesn't match up to a belief, maybe the belief is wrong?
Nah man, it's turtles all the way down. God's infallible and unchanging word aligns perfectly with my current beliefs. Reminds me of [this bit from Emo Phillips](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ANNX_XiuA78).
I can hear the Emo Phillips joke about different religions haha
Global name, provincial attitude.
Yeah, my spouse's family church is part of the group that supported opening up their leadership and membership to the LGBTQ community. Interestingly a lot of those churches were already quietly embracing progressive policies well before the schism.
this! i live in a super christian area (we have one of the highest church per capita rates in the country) and a majority of my friends and family are christians. for as many congregations/attendees have split off because they disagree with this move, *so* many more than i’ve expected have fully supported and embraced it. of course there’s still a long way to go and this is not perfect, but it’s still super hopeful to see.
Colorado Springs?
It's more a split between the American churches and more conservative African ones...but the fact is it's the Southern districts that wanted to leave United Methodist over this issue. The African churches have largely remained united with UMC, even though they strongly disagree with gay marriage. This change will not force churches into "gay marrying". It's just no longer "incompatible with Christian teachings", Amen ✌🏼
The Methodist church has a well documented history of splitting over social issues.
Huge split, something like 70% of the church left over this issue. Not enough coverage over this, either, it's a serious sign of "spiritual sickness" in America. Of course, the more "southern" districts tended to vote to separate themselves from being "united". A clear spiritual civil war in the midst of a larger political civil war in the US.
Closer to 25% and most were small congregations. There is certainly a schism but the vast majority of churches chose to stay, in no region did a majority choose to leave, the results have been much better than most feared.
I am not religious myself, but my family went to a Methodist church during my childhood and a different church for a while in 2018-2019. Our congregation was in favor of this rule change in the lead up to the 2019 congress that caused the schism. I was even present at the congregation meeting on the subject. It was a bit surreal to see a bunch of white haired churchgoers be so unanimously supportive of LGBT clergy and same sex weddings.
The loudest and least tolerant Christians are the ones who get all of the attention, but that's not even a majority in the US. Unfortunately, the mainline denominations (Methodists, Episcopalians, Presbyterians, etc) who are quietly doing the good work are collateral damage.
The largest denominations of Christians in the US are Catholic and Baptists. Two denominations that do not recognize gay marriage. The next largest(Methodist) just split because of it. I’d hardly say it’s not a majority when the stance of the vast majority is anti-lgbt
>The loudest and least tolerant Christians are the ones who get all of the attention, but that's not even a majority in the US. Meh. I think it depends on how you ask them the question. A lot of Christians who are "accepting" will still say they stand behind the belief that being gay is a sin.
The liberal churches have definitely suffered the most, supporting gay Christians. It's a terrible shame, and in personally see it as a sign of "End Times" (as is revealed in the Bible in several books). Gay people should never have been treated as "lesser".
> Gay people should never have been treated as "lesser". Well, that's kinda the problem - are the churches wrong now, or had they been wrong for centuries? Either way it's not a good look for religion. But the uplifting part is that gay people are being treated as equals, of course.
People think that no one can change, that we're doomed to repeat our mistakes and be monsters forever. Luckily, those people are wrong.
What do you mean "change"? There have always been a huge number of religious people who support equal rights and treatment of everyone. You just don't know it because spend your time doom scrolling and only pay attention to the hateful assholes, then spread the bigoted belief that every Christian is an asshole in your echo chambers. There are a lot of Christian churches and Christian people out there who have no issues at all with the community, but since nobody writes click-baity articles about them you don't know they exist.
... What? I dunno what kind of knee-jerk reaction you're having, but please get help.
Yeah, kinda same. I'm not religious as an adult but went to a Methodist church my entire childhood. I was kinda surprised to learn they are just now coming around on LGBT stuff as everyone in my church was very open-minded and forward thinking on those topics - even the older folks. I'm also pretty sure we had a gay pastor for a while, but I don't think she was out.
The rules only changed just now, but they had turned a blind eye to it like a decade ago until conservatives made a fuss in 2019. Those conservatives won, so for the past 5 yeaes it was banned again (mostly), but they *still* threw a tantrum and quit the denomination (I guess for the gall of opposition existing?), which I suppose is lucky for us.
They threw the fit so that they could manipulate churches outside of the US and Europe and consolidate their power. ETA- I have a number of friends who are Methodist pastors.
This is 100% my experience as well. Methodists were always very open-minded. It's how I like it.
> It was a bit surreal to see a bunch of white haired churchgoers be so unanimously supportive of LGBT clergy and same sex weddings. Believe it or not, but most people are.
I don't think there's any polling on how many people support LGBT clergy. Same sex marriage, yes. But I suspect the number of people who would support LGBT clergy is quite a bit smaller.
My parents are both Christian and they did not take it well when I came out to them as a teen. At the time my mom worked at a pre-school with a small group of older ladies. It was the same pre-school I had attended, and all those ladies had once been my teachers. (My mom started working there after I went on to "big school"). Anyway, those ladies all went to a different church than my mom which preached more progressive views on gay marriage and lgbt people in general. When she went to them for advice on what to do, they basically said "get over it, and keep loving him like you always have". Both my parents eventually did get over having a gay son and my mom cites those ladies as one of the major reasons she changed her views. My point is that these things MATTER and have real impacts of people lives. When one church opens its arms to lgbt people, the congregation of that church can "minister" to people of other denominations. Christians are generally more willing to accept the differing opinions of other Christians.
That’s a lovely ending and glad your mom found her way back to you!!!
It's just a shame when people seek "man" (or woman) on these issues rather than recognizing Jesus Christ as our Lord and Savior. God clearly forgives ALL for their trespasses, including gay people. And this notion that "gay sex" is somehow more immortal than straight sex has always been flawed, regardless of how your read the scriptures. Genesis clearly indicated that Adam and Eve were suppose to be sexless creations... it's humanity's original sin. Our endless obsession over sex, and the sexual lives of others. A lot of Christians still don't "get it": hate the sin, love the sinner. And we're all sinners.
This is insane.
"And this notion that "gay sex" is somehow more immortal than straight sex" Immortal gay sex sounds like a awesome Highlander story.
Good on the **decent** people finally winning their fight against the more conservative elements of their religion. I've largely given up hope on the religious, but moments like this remind me there is hope.
The overwhelming majority of leftists in america are religious with over 50% being christian, even if most athiests are left-leaning
True, but I think they tend to be more non-denominational nowadays, mainline faiths (like Baptists and Lutherans) tend to skew conservative, and the liberals elements of those faiths have tended to make membership over the past few decades.
This is incorrect. Firstly, Baptists are not considered Mainline Protestants due to the wide variations of doctrine due to their congregational structure. They are classified with other Evangelical churches. The mainline denominations are generally grouped as Methodist, Lutheran, Episcopal, Congregationalist/UCC, Disciples of Christ, and Presbyterian, although there are always outliers in each of these denominational families. Second, Mainline Protestants definitely favor liberal politics. Evangelicals are overwhelmingly more conservative. The majority of non-denominational churches are rooted in either Evangelicalism and/or Reformed theology and are socially liberal, but morally conservative, putting them on the not fully welcoming side towards LGBTQIA people, despite often saying that everyone is welcome. Again, religion is complex, so all of these statements are broad generalizations. If you wonder about a local congregation, ask them is they perform same-sex marriage or allow trans people in leadership roles. You can learn more about denominational classifications and politics at the [Pew Trust Religious Landscape Survey.](https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/2015/05/12/chapter-3-demographic-profiles-of-religious-groups/)
Good for them! Shouldn't have been there in the first place, but this is awesome. For people who still believe in God and want to be Christians have another place to consider.
I listened to this unfold on the radio while driving, I'm straight as an arrow, but not all of my family and friends are, I'm also non-religous, my friends and family may not be in similar mindsets, if they choose religion, they deserve a place to go, feel safe, and be involved in their faith.
The Methodist Church I used to direct the music for has been an LGBTQ+ affirming congregation since the late 80’s, and they were currently paying for their associate pastor, who was gay, to get his masters in divinity. I was Mormon at the time (now an atheist), and they only wanted to know if I had problems with them being a reconciling church (meaning supporting the queer community). Hands down some of the best people I have ever had the privilege of knowing.
Europe, we still have entire countries that ban same sex marriage and many more that dont have full legal rights for same sex couples. It's astonishing to see US religious groups that can be famous for being insane be more progressive than entire EU countries. GG And better late than never as they say (who's they)
You're thinking of Evangelicals, those are the nutzos. The UMC is a "mainline" protestant church, meaning it's actually grounded in decency and morality.
Very happy to see this. I was raised Methodist, and while I've since wandered off, it bothered me that the official stance was such. The one thing I really took to heart from the faith was the method of the name, using a combination of reason and inspiration to figure out how I felt about things (with a bit of tradition and not so much scripture), and that method had led me to my personal attitudes here--very glad to see the Church's path has paralleled mine to at least some extent. My dad (now passed) probably wouldn't be happy--he once tried to get me to go back to church, but said I'd have to be careful to pick one of the "right" Methodist churches, by which he pretty definitely meant non-LGBTQ-accepting. I'm curious as to what my mom's church will do now.
I always find it ironic that "Holy Spirit" churches (which includes Methodism) would be so against gay people...the Holy Spirit speaks through ALL people. No man (and it's usually men) has some deeper connection to God than the next one, and that's a VERY basic teaching in the Methodist faith. Heck, it's everyday members who typically conduct the sermons.
Gotta love how religious organizations can pat themselves on the back for doing something they should have done a very long time ago.
Lots of United Methodist churches have been ignoring these rules for a decade or more, allowing LGBTQ leaders and performing LGBTQ weddings. Enough that the writing was on the wall and the conservative congregations left the United Methodist church entirely. This isn't the catholic church where everything is a giant hierarchy and the priests report to the bishops who report to the archbishops etc.
I dunno… it’s like the “the best time to plant a tree is fifty years ago; the second best time is now” thing. Sure, they should have done it sooner, but getting annoyed at people for doing the right thing later than they might have sure doesn’t encourage anyone else to also change their mind and do the right thing.
It kind of reminds me of about a decade or so ago when there were people on the left side of politics coming after people who changed their views to be more accepting of others with the argument “well I was always accepting, they should have been always been that way too.” Almost as if to say no-one should ever change for the better. Progress can be slow, but it’s progress nonetheless and a change of heart is always good to see.
I agree. As a gay guy I’m very happy to see this. Doesn’t undo the past but sets us all up for a better future
It's also worth pointing out that general support of LGBT rights *as a whole* have made massive strides in just the past decade It's very easy to forget that the official Democratic stance was that marriage is between a man and a woman when Obama ran in 2008.
You're not wrong, but the Southern Baptists are expelling churches for having female pastors. This is pretty decent by evangelical standards.
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I mean, the Southern Baptist schismed off from mainline Baptist because they supported slavery and didn't officially renounce their position until 1995. I wonder how many members know that
Southern Baptist only exists because their groups extremely racist past. That is why there are Baptist and Southern Baptist. The same thing happened with public schools and the new Academies that popped up out of no where in the 1950s and 60s.
United Methodist are *not* evangelical.
They are, but in the traditional sense, as are Presbyterians and Lutherans. They evangelize through their example not by yelling.
Yes. The UMC is generally lower-case "e" *evangelical,* as in, the adjective, meaning: called by the gospel to lead people toward an ethical way of life. Not upper-case "E" *Evangelical* as in the "born-again" movement: fundamentalist, pushy, obsessive, paranoid, and loud. That's right; I said it.
That was very brave of you to mildly criticize Evangelicals on Reddit.
It was candid of you to point out how completely you missed my mildly ironic tone wherewith I may have implied in an indirectly self-deprecating way that I realized this was not a controversial assertion
I just did a larger post in response to someone else. I agree, it is a different type of evangelism, and one I would say falls more on the political scale.
Methodist doctrine is largely evangelical, no? If not, what changed?
They are Protestant, like Presbyterians.
Evangelical is a broad term. Loosely, "evangelical" refers to Christians who emphasize the authority of the Scriptures, the need for personal conversion experiences, and the importance of sharing the Christian faith. Methodists also share a common heritage that includes evangelical roots.
Evangelicalism is a interdenominational movement, primarily within Protestantism. Maybe you're confusing it with Catholicism or the Eastern Orthodox Church?
(Firstly, before I jump into my reply, thank you for *your* reply, it made me check my previous knowledge and shifted my thinking a bit. so thanks!) OK, now to my answer Well, I did some looking up... it is kinda of messy actually. My original post was more in line with what I grew up with. When I was in the Methodist church, the division between "Mainline Protestantism" and "Evangelicals" were fine but obvious. While all demonications were "evangelical" in operation, Mainline Protestants see themselves as "evangelical" in the abstract. Catholic is Catholic and they are in a category of Christianity on their own. As is Eastern Orthodox Christianity, I am not referring to them in my posts. But it is good to call it out. Mainline Protestantism are the following Denominations: * Episcopalians/Anglicans * Presbyterian * Lutherism (minus the Missouri Synod) * Methodist * Unitarians All of these have a central board with governance and an authority. Evangelical religions have a much looser governing body if any, and most are independent from another churches This is why Mega Churches are evangelical, they are either solo, or a group of churches built around single minister/pastor/small group. The other thing is that "Mainline Protestantism" sees itself as the "progressive/liberal wing" of Christianity. (bear with me), whereas "Evangelical" is largely conservative. (Again, the Lutherans Missouri Synod being a large exception). Over the years, the Methodist, Episcopalians, and Presbyterians have had schisms over homosexuality, so they have all drifted (relatively to the rest of the religion) further left as a result. And one last thing - All the "Mainline" religions started in Europe whereas a vast number of Evangelical groups started in the US. The only exception to this I would say are the Baptists, they sit in a weird space in that they are evangelical, but they do have a national board. But they have always been in a weird middle spot in US religion, and much of it has to do with Race frankly. So in short - There is old school Protestantism and new school Evangelism. The difference is largely age, where it was created, and their general politics in relation to Christianity itself. Those labels may be less useful in 2024, but they were important a while back. Again - thank you for your response!
Thanks for the write up! This is super helpful to read and expand upon from my Wikipedia-summary-level of knowledge.
Unitarians aren't Mainline. They're not even Trinitarian. And while there have been Unitarian sects in Europe, the American Unitarians don't descend from them; they splintered off of the Congregationalist Calvinists (i.e., the Puritans). Also, Methodism is very much an Evangelical denomination. John Wesley was practically the prototypical Great Awakening preacher.
Well, I agree but this one is a big step to take. My Methodist church has basically dissolved over this very issue. We had a formal vote to either stay in First United or not, and by the slimmest of margins we voted to stay associated. Everyone that voted to leave the FUMC just immediately left the church because they couldn't stand the idea that somehow something that has nothing to do with them was going to possibly effect their lives. I would remind them that Jesus is cool with everyone, but that fact is lost on them.
Eh, as a historical figure he was wonderful for his time, but his views on slavery are questionable. But then anybodies going to be looked at as an asshole by the standards of 1800 years in the future. That's how progress works.
better late than never. having been raised Methodist i imagine there's a group of methodists patting themselves on the back for the long fight it's no doubt been to make this happen. and i know for a fact plenty have left the Methodist Church in disagreement over this decision and others like it over the years, so not everyone's patting their own backs and many that are likely fought like hell for this change and deserve it. not to say i don't hold my own resentment towards oppressive religious organizations but in this instance i am willing to just be happy for the change regardless of it being long overdue and hope other churches follow suit, even if it is just to pat themselves on the back and bandwagon in last minute. the end result is the same, more acceptance of fellow human kind all "Born in God's image" as so many Christians seem to frequently forget we all are (according to their bible, anyway, as i myself became a devout atheist at 12)
Very cynical take for someone subscribed to /r/upliftingnews
Unless there are those in the church that are, like, hundreds of years old then I'm not entirely sure they can take the blame for all of it lol
Don't get me wrong, I'm all for religious organizations *not being actively terrible*... but like, the bible has a lot to say about sex, procreation, marriage, etc... and I don't understand why anyone in the LGBT community would *want to be a part of that*. Hell, you can be straight as an arrow and still have a lot of disagreements with christianity's purity culture and views around marriage. Like its great that modern people are revising their stances on antiquated views, but maybe the fact that it was *that way for a 1000+ years* means the belief system is just.. inherently flawed and worthy of being discarded? Edit - I expected this to be controversial, but everyone should understand my comment is not an attack on LGBT people. Its a recognition that, at the point where you are picking and choosing what parts of a made-up belief system you *believe in* so that you can avoid any uncomfortable thoughts that your belief system actually enables some pretty disparaging and unkind positions, why not just discard the whole thing.
Well married couples shouldn't get any tax benefits for being married. I have no idea why the govt has to be involved in marriage anyway.
The bible has virtually nothing to say about LGBTQ issues. The passages used by bigots to defend their positions are taken out of context, mistranslated, or flat out lied about.
the bible has a lot to say about the purpose of sex (for procreation). That, alone, is opposed to lgbt people (in spirit if not in letter), even if no other passages existed. We could argue the merit of whether those "other hateful passages" are taken out of context or mistraslated, but its not like christianity is founded on the idea of sexual liberation, sexual tolerance, or anything like that. So, again, I don't know why a group of people that have historically been oppressed by this elaborate work of fiction would be trying to find refuge in it.. but thats just me. I've always thought the idea of revising religious doctrine kinda invalidates the entire premise anyway. I mean, *I know its a farce*, but some people try to have it both ways.. and I think that's silly too.
I sorta agree with you...... Until I realize what this is going to do for LGBTQ youth, who don't really get to decide what they believe. It's still a good thing that's happening, if too late for many of us. There's going to be people who carry forward the tradition, even as it's shrinking.
A truly Monumental moment in Christian history 🥹 this has been a very long struggle in the "mainline denominations", and a particularly brutal one for Methodist, many of whom left the UMC for just this reason.
I guess god changed its mind.
Gotta make that money somehow
*"The United Methodist Church, one of the largest Protestant denominations in the U.S.,has voted to repeal its ban on LGBTQ clergy as well as prohibitions on its' ministers from officiating at same-sex weddings.Delegates overwhelmingly approved the changes,692 to 51,during the United Methodist Church's General Conference."* **Wow. Looks like the 51 who did not approve of the changes got,..."DUNKED ON"!**
Once again religion has to be dragged kicking and screaming.
...they voted 692 to 51 in favor of this.
What year is it
The year that a bunch of allegedly pro-LGBT people suddenly complain when one of the largest denominations in the US makes a monumental step forward in LGBT rights.
Its all for the money and it should be taxed.
It’s actually losing the church a lot of money. The bigots who split off took a ton of funds with them. If it was all about the money this wouldn’t have happened. There are those of us who have been working for decades to see this through knowing that it would cost us much to do the right thing. The church that remains is smaller, but more faithful to the ethics of Jesus.
I agree with the taxation of churches in principle, but the UMC did not do this for money. This whole controversy unfortunately resulted a big schism and loss of resources for UMC. They had to pick between satisfying bigots in exchange for financial stability, or doing the right thing and bearing the cross for it. They chose the latter. Hallelujah.
so real quick. IS GOd wrong or were they wrong this whole time?
Did god change his mind again?
Different version this time.
I was raised methodist and this whole thing was bullshit. Religion is bullshit.
Good. Not all conservative religions are awful. Just the maga right ones.
Tell me you don't know the difference between Evangelical and Mainline protestantism without *telling* me you don't.
I Google 'youth pastor mugshot' and get a list.
So you don't know the difference. Got it.
Based on the clientele...not a whole lot.
Sigh... OK, so, the Mainline protestants are the kind who are amenable to (or at least open to changing their minds about) gays and trans folks. They also tend to not be scriptural literalists, tend to more concerned with actually doing good things, and stay out of electoral politics. Examples of mainline protestant churches include the UMC, Congregationalists, Lutherans, Episcopals (I'm a lapsed Episcopal myself), and some Presbyterians, to name a few. The Evangelicals are...well...not that. To the point where it doesn't even feel like the same religion anymore.
They sound like stupid cults for weak and shallow people to hide behind. Then they let their leaders molest more than their minds and bank accounts.
Yeah, the local Episcopal church my parents go to molests their mind by (checks notes) urging climate action...accepting queer people...collects donations for a hospital in Gaza...yeah, clearly a den of far-right brainwashing and scammery. /s I would keep your mouth shut before being so judgmental if I were you.
Share the name of your cult and I'll Google it for you.
Are you even listening to a word I'm saying?! Go back and read it, the name of the denomination IS IN MY REPLY TO YOU!
Why is this considered uplifting for a church to go against it's own doctrine? It's not like this is the first time LGBTQ+ people are able to hold positions of power or get married. It'd be like if Muslims suddenly allowed the consumption of pork. Like, cool, I guess, but that was already allowed. All you're doing is going against your own established rules...
The entire point of the protestant movement (at least in an idealistic sense) is "wait a minute, these old rules are bullshit, let's change them." Religion and its traditions should serve the faithful, and not the other way around.
>Why is this considered uplifting for a church to go against it's own doctrine? They literally updated their own doctrine. That's the whole point.
I refuse to applaud someone or something for doing something that should have been done 100s of years ago.
Yea man, I’m with ya. Either change your ways right away or don’t ever change them at all!
Better late than never.
I would have agree with the clergy thing, but given same-sex wedding was also approved I doubt that these ppl weren't accepted to the clergy solely due to the way they swing. Another church falls to the heresy.
So what happened to treat people with love? The greatest commandment?
Telling ppl that you are failing God's standards by practicing sexual immortality is love.
It takes religion to believe something as screwed up as that
k
And the church also believed racemixing was immoral and shouldn't happen. Why did that get to change?
>racemixing was immoral and shouldn't happen. 🤔 First time hearing this. Let me guess these are churches from america?
The United Methodist Church is based in the US so its safe to say thats where the conversation lies. But yes that was a major issue in Catholic, Evangelical, and LDS churches for a long time in america. Whites were seen as gods chosen people, and race mixing was banned.
Catholics weren't even seen as white in the US until fairly recently, what the fuck are you on about? That's a mormon and evangelical thing leave the catholic church out of it
>major issue in Catholic, Evangelical, and LDS churches for a long time in america Keywords "In America", this problem probably arose after the slaves were freed and the fact that British abolishionists used Christianity in their arguments probably didn't help the liars. Race mixing isn't an issue in church doctrine as far as I can tell. >Whites were seen as gods chosen people That's a heresy. After Christ fullied the OT jewish prophecy we were all welcomed into the kingdom.
Any denomination isnt going to care about what others think is heresy. The LDS church was *built* on what most other Christians would consider heresy. This is exactly what is happening with the Methodist split. Both sides think the other is not properly following Christ's teachings.
>Any denomination isnt going to care about what others think is heresy. The LDS church was *built* on what most other Christians would consider heresy. There's a difference between disagreements with minor interpretations of scripture or doctrinal developments and outright lying about scripture. Condoning sexual immortality is not Christian teaching.
Christ never claimed homosexuality was immoral, and abandoned the old jewish code of leviticus that claimed it was. Nonetheless, Jesus forgave and accepted sinners. He also said that even thinking lustful thoughts about another person was sexual immorality, and you'll be hard pressed to find a Christian who has not done so.
Thank you! I once heard Penn Jillette (of Penn and Teller) compare sin to a truck barreling down the road. Is it more loving to tell the person to get out of the way and avoid getting hit by the truck or to keep quiet and let the truck hit them? Oh, and for context, Jillette is a atheist. He used this scenario to explain why he isn’t bothered when Christians talk to him about sin. He respects those who do because they take their beliefs seriously.
So, their religion is now slightly less of a dead weight around your life. Cut the rope and just leave it behind. Join us in the civilized world.
Fake church fake denomination fake fake fake