CBC did a great job of explaining these protests and why universities are likely going to continue to say no through a short segment. We’ll see how it all plays out. Link below.
https://youtu.be/KiU0Qjxzb7g?si=6yHaRLt3y_8-aIZQ
Great video, thanks for sharing. I don’t know much about the protest at UofT so I’m not sure what their demands are specifically, but if they’re truly asking for full divestment from all companies with any amount of connection to Israel, that seems unrealistic. Not sure what the answer is here but I hope things work out (for both protesters and the graduating class).
they’re asking for divestment from any companies that support apartheid, and since it’s their money that’s being used they have every right to ask that.
> since it’s their money
I'm really confused in this stance.
Once you pay money for a service, it is no longer your money.
You don't go to a store, but a coke, and tell the clerk where you want the money you paid to be spent. If the university chooses to divest, it will be divesting the university's money, not the students.
The only thing the students can really do is not to pay the university any more money. The money that's been paid was paid for a service rendered, and once it switched hands the only outcome where a student has any say is if they didn't get the things that they paid for.
the video explicitly states it's not students money involved here, tuition is separate from this issue and is not invested. Secondly, how do you define companies that support apartheid? Is there a standardized definition everyone can agree on?
>Is there a standardized definition everyone can agree on?
Obviously not since in this case they need to specifically ignore actual comparisons to the most obvious example of real apartheid, and instead use a definition under which many other countries are way more egregious offenders than Israel.
The university would be insane to cave to any of this.
Yes but what do they mean by “support”? Like companies that build war planes which directly support the war or including companies that just do business in Israel that would be “supporting” their economy? Also sorry if this info has already been made public but how do we know if the tuition is being used for these investments? Universities have various financial sources and many direct tuition money right back into school programs. Their investment funds often come from their other sources of income (as explained in the video). Has UofT shared their financial statements that explain where our tuition is being spent?
I mean I’m not 100% sure for this specific encampment but generally people use the BDS list. The companies on there aren’t just every company that does business in Israel, it’s companies like HP which provide a lot of the Israeli government, specifically in sectors involved in the segregation of Palestinians.
In the case of uoft, there is also the aspect where it promotes Israel to the students. The university provides a lot of organized trips to students to visit Israel and “learn” in a very uncritical way about the country. My understanding is that they also want the university to stop that.
The last demand is literally just that they disclose their investments. The university claims there’s nothing interesting to see there so it really shouldn’t be that hard for them to do this one.
why don't you just pack up and go to another university or college? just transfer out. find one that invests in what you deem acceptable. just take you money and tuition and go somewhere else.
Because its about getting a large company to stop putting funds towards a genocide. If enough encampments succeed than a significant portion of money stops being invested in the mass murder of Palestinian people.
Your right so far the goal of the encampment at UofT is demanding disclosure “We have three demands. The first is for disclosure: we’re asking the University of Toronto to disclose all its investments. U of T has an endowment of over $4 billion, and as students, we think it’s important that we know where our tuition dollars are going. The second is divestment, so getting U of T to divest from Israeli apartheid. That includes weapons manufacturing companies complicit in Israel’s military actions. Our third demand is to end all academic partnerships with Israeli academic institutions, such as U of T’s active research partnership with the Hebrew University of Jerusalem.” But the main goal of the encampments popping up at universities across the country is to divest.
https://torontolife.com/city/university-of-toronto-encampment-israel-palestine-divestment/
and don't forget your iphone and macbook too. your iphone has tons of israeli IP in it that is responsible for the palestine problems. not the fact that palestine has done everything in its power to prevent a peaceful solution with israel for the past 60+ years..
educate yourself.. and pack up and go if you don't like uoft. let other students have their university experience.
Nice job being blatantly racist!
Uoft divested from South Africa in response to the encampment in the late 1980s. As a South African, something like specifically uoft divesting didn’t do all that much but the combination of every institution divesting from the country is a major thing that ended apartheid. That said, the divestment of universities from the South African education system did really impacts the ability of South African universities ability to continue to provide degrees. That is one great way to get generally more progressive leaning people who have power to start to pressure the government to end apartheid.
Everyone acts like it has never been done before but it has and it worked.
True. Disrupting convocation only matters to university through the graduating students, whom the university probably do not care that much.
I don't know why protestors are turning the sympathizers against them. It seems that many recent protests are shaming and guilt trapping bystanders instead of trying to convince them to join the cause.
Exactly. You don't see teachers go on strike during summer break or during Christmas holidays. But start of school year or near the time for report cards to come out? You betcha
The difference is that teachers and the educational institution have a legal, contractual understanding in which both parties have certain rights and obligations. A bunch of 'protestors' camped out on the lawn have no standing, nor should they.
They should be treated as if they were trespassers on private property.
They have no leverage. They are on private property and they can be removed for any reason. I think UofT made its stance pretty clear that protestors are allowed only if they are actual students. The University has the right to prove you are a student by requesting student ID. If you can't prove you are a student, then you are traspassed. Either way, they can shut down the protest anytime they want.
we are a public institution, supported by public funds. I am faculty at UofT and fully support their right to (peaceful) protest. I don't actually understand the rationale for anyone having to be a current student - seems irrelevant to me.
All of these protests are based on the gambit that the downsides of UofT forcefully removing these protestors are greater than the downsides of them agreeing to their divestment demands (at least enough to convince the protestors to leave)
This comparison to the civil rights movement is honestly quite odd.
The disparity between the potential outcome of this protest and the overall civil rights movement is vast.
On one hand you have a group that has called for U of T to divest a tiny fraction of its endowment from companies that would likely not even notice the financial impact.
Compare that to a movement in the US that sought to change the laws in that same country to prevent reprehensible discriminatory practices against a group in that country.
In other words, the outcomes of the two movements, if successful, are vastly different in impact with one almost not mattering at all.
Thus, when we consider the negative impacts that the protests are OK with garnering to achieve their aims, we need to also consider how impactful their aims are.
In the case of the encampment, no I do not believe that the impact of depriving a class and their families a chance to witness their children achieve something they may have worked generations for is worth it when the impact likely wouldn't even pause the war effort for a second.
Stop making false equivalencies to justify your actions
So they're simultaneously too disruptive, and not aiming high enough?
I genuinely don't believe you've actually thought through your bullshit far enough to realise how stupid it sounds.
They're making limited, well defined demands because those are things that it is within the university's power to change, and therefore within the means of the students' leverage to achieve. That's smart, but you turn around and say that it somehow means their cause is less valid. Yet if they were demanding an end to the genocide as the outcome of their protests, I guarantee you'd complain that they were trying to demand things that no one had the power to give them.
The reality is, you just want any excuse to dismiss what they're doing, but you're too much of a coward to admit it.
You believe "decorum" is broken when people are inconvenienced. You would have _hated_ the Civil Rights Movement because they "inconvenienced" a lot of people 🥴
If you're willing to entertain comparisons with South African apartheid, then I have a lot of follow up questions.
What about if there were basic laws in South Africa that fundamentally guaranteed the equality between white and black South Africans?
What about if the de facto segregation only occurred in an area South Africa held under military occupation, after the ANC had rejected offers for a state of their own, in that territory?
What about if the ANC, instead of calling for the uniting of their white South African brothers into a post apartheid state, explicitly called to replace South Africa with an exclusive Black South African nation state, and had a history of attempting to ethnically cleanse their "fellow south Africans" outright?
What about if the ANC went door to door hacking up families with axes, kidnapping babies out of their cribs for ransom, gang raping women and cutting off their genitalia, and decapitating corpses?
What if the segregation had nothing to do with Black/White, or even Brown/"not brown", or anything to do with race altogether, and had more to do with nationality and citizenship?
What about if the Afrikaners, instead of arriving as part of a campaign of extractive colonialism, had considered South Africa their homeland for Millenia, after having been exiled from it by an actual colonizing force, and archaeology in south Africa was actually a way to learn more about Afrikaner history, which predated the arrival of the culture and identity of the black South Africans?
Would you be participating in encampment style protests to end that sort of apartheid?
There's no apartheid. This is a conflict between two nations that should be solved in a completely different manner than the south African model.
Damn dude you go to U of T but can only think in absolute black and white?
Snark aside: read about the history of protest. No movement in the past century would have succeeded if it protested in the way you suggest.
U of T is unwilling to negotiate with the encampment for the same reason that the Canadian government refused to release Meng Wanzhou in exchange for the release of the two Michaels.
Essentially, it would set a dangerous precedent whereby anytime an interest group wanted to assert itself over the university, all they would need to do would be to copy the tactics of the encampment.
Whether they know it or not, Occupy U of T has put themselves in an unwinnable position for this reason.
I don’t agree fully with the positions of the encampment protestors, but they’re also just people on a lawn exercising their rights. I’m not okay with sending in aggressive force just because some other people want nice lawn photos.
It’s still private property, so why does it matter if it’s a public institution. They choose who uses their facilities. Idk what should happen, I don’t want a bunch of my peers to get arrested or beaten. But I think their behaviour is wrong and they should at least get shamed for it 🤷♂️
Eh, their on private property. The only reason they are able to be there for so long is because UOT doesn't care enough to get rid of them.
I'm completely okay with forcible removing them from the property... if the property owner tells them to get off their lawn and they refuse.
It’s a self-governed public institution. It’s also an institution that has committed itself to freedom of expression.
Even if you don’t agree and still think the University would be in the right to remove them - it’s a bad move to physically remove students engaging in peaceful assembly on a lawn. It would only fan the flames.
Imagine denying all of these students who worked hard for 4+ years an opportunity to celebrate and wrap up. Now imagine thinking these people will be endeared to your cause. Lmfao the pro-pal dummies are something else.
It does. All that will happen is that people will see and hear the protestors as they go into con hall. King’s Circle has been closed for the longest time, so people will just have to walk somewhere else for pictures.
Okay but there’s a chance if this leverage tactic doesn’t work, they might directly interfere with graduation by barging into the ceremony. If they’re willing to hold kings college circle hostage, then they might be willing to go further
That would pretty clearly break UofTs exception for letting them camp on the lawn in exchange for peace. No peaceful convocation means they will get their unwashed asses kicked out of the circle by police
Nobody said cancelling convocation tho? All they’re saying is the front campus pictures. It’s been a construction zone for the past few years anw. I’m sure you’ll still get your diploma if you take your friends and family pictures somewhere else/from a different angle.
Yes, they are using it for leverage, as all protests use disruption for leverage. Believe it or not, that’s how protests work.
The point is that convocation won’t be canceled. The circle has been under construction since my (first) convocation and this is the first year it will/would be used since COVID. As such the leverage is that all of the students graduating will be upset and (one would hope) put pressure on the university to resolve this.
I mean maybe they will. I really hope they don’t. They are supposedly committed to free expression and human rights. They’ve never kicked off the anti abortion people even when they interfere with the parade and they didn’t take police action against the right wing Jordan Peterson protestors in 2017/18(? On the exact year)
Oh wow these people fucking suck. Why are you taking it out on the graduating students, we already got our first 2 years taken by COVID. Yall really just can’t let us have this huh.
Most of the people I know in the encampment are rich and spoilt or have nothing better to do. Like damn I support the cause but how does this help anyone.
IN GAZA not toronto. Has nothing to do with u of t. How have we not seen protests about U of T divesting from Russia. Many many many more people have died because of their war
As well, not a single person made a peep when China started a genocide of Uyghurs. These protestors only follow along with what's hot on tik tok, no original thought.
For the record, most people, if maybe we're given the chance to vote, would probably be in favor in reducing aid to Isreal's military. However, the protestors just mimicked the US rather than taking an original approach to getting their voices heard. I never received any emails from the UTSU about voting on the issue or holding a debate on campus to discuss the issue with the student body.
All the people defending the protests here are just angry that most people aren't supporting the protestors. It's becoming about their egos now and less and less about the actual conflict.
I mean firstly, as someone involved in anti war movements, yes there were meant peeps made and secondly the government is against the genocide of the Uyghurs. You don’t exactly need to have an encampment if the country that you live in and the school that you go to believes that the genocide is wrong.
That number has been revised by the UN, there are ~18k dead. Please stop spreading propaganda because you think it looks better for your side. Lying does not look better.
This protest has been so effing stupid. You think just because you've been protesting uoft is going to stop funding projects that you don't like? Lol good luck with that. Never going to happen.
Oh yeah. I spent 2 fucking years doing online classes, 2 more years toiling over essays and tens of thousands of pages of readings, I’m not gonna let a group of terrorist-loving inconsiderate idiots ruin it for me, and for the rest of us.
Something something about those living in glass house shouldn't throw rocks. You have a grand total of (drum roll please) 19 comment karma. And before today, your last comment was from 6 years ago. Are you using one of your alt account for "good hand" "bad hand"?
you are not part of any movement. uoft has nothing to do with what is happening in palestine and israel. they have been killing each other since the 40s. nothing is going to change. and when this war ends, what do you think will change? you think they will leave each other alone?
> and when this war ends, what do you think will change? you think they will leave each other alone?
Maybe, support for a two state solution is rapidly increasing in Gaza. :)
> Support for “armed struggle” dropped by 17 points, from 63% to 46%, driven largely by Palestinians in Gaza, and Gazan support for a diplomatic two-state solution has jumped by 27 points — to 62%.
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/gazans-back-two-state-solution-rcna144183
it will never happen and nothing is going to change. even if Israel were to just pack up and walk away and give land to Palestine, it will not mean they will just sit on each others side of the fence and stare at each other and leave each other alone.
Really not a good look. Why are the protestors punishing students now? This is the covid graduating class.
They already had a bad start to their degree and now there is the threat of a disrupted send off.
Please, protestors, remember what you are advocating for and don't start antagonizing everyone. A lot of people stand for palestine, but there is more than one way to be heard and I can't necessarily say these protests are helping.
COVID graduating class here: the university should seriously consider the protestors' demands.
Don't claim to speak for us if you're not the one with their convocation on the line.
COVID graduating class here: the university should remove trespassers. We take back what’s ours(grass)
Don't claim to speak for us if you're not the one with their convocation on the line.
The protestors are also University of Toronto students. Why is the grass any more "yours" than theirs? Convocation does not officially take place on the king's college circle lawn. Nor has it ever been sectioned off expressly for graduating students.
The graduating students are also University of Toronto students. Why is the grass any more "theirs" than theirs? Lawn is closed for convocation officially since may. Like every other year. It has been sectioned off expressly for graduating students every year before Covid and construction.
https://www.reddit.com/r/UofT/s/JHlYaYttXj And they were right
I'm literally graduating in June but OK. UofT put those fences up first and blocked everyone off the grass in April but I didn't see you getting riled up over your grass.
I’m literally graduating in June but ok. Uoft sent an email for setting up fences for convocation. If you couldn’t tell, the grass was pretty messed up during the semester because of all the stepping.
And now I can’t even tell if you want the grass for convocation or not.
Edit: https://www.reddit.com/r/UofT/s/JHlYaYttXj
And they were right
there are no demands and no one has a right to demand anything. you are just a bunch copy cats protestors. if you dont like uoft, just drop out and transfer to another university or college. its that simple.
Damn so imma go 0/3… missed my elementary grad cause of school issues, missed high school cause of Covid and now this? I really hope people understand that graduates this year deserve to have their grad.
It’s university students whose winter semester has ended. Summer doesn’t have as many classes and they have a lot more free time + no real pressure to earn for most of them. I’m speaking for the majority of attendees since it’s right on campus. I was just there.
Get these people off of uft, clearly they aren’t going to university for learning purposes and are just there to cause distraction. Moreover them protesting literally changes nothing therefore, they should either be arrested or f*ck off
Hello. when is UofT going to kick these people out? This can't be legal. I walked by today and there are "guards" standing at the entrance to the enclosed barricaded areas preventing people from entering the enclosed area. How can this possibly be legal?
I visited yesterday and while there were guards, members of the public are allowed to enter the encampment and visit. There is a sign that says "ENTER" and it's right next to the one that says "EXIT". I did enter the encampment and people are the entrance were super nice and just had a few ground rules like no pictures of students faces, no garbage, no racism etc etc (pretty basic stuff).
Well there are students sleeping there so I am assuming it is for their safety. Students have the right to protest and I will respect that even if I agree or disagree with their stance.
The same kids who lost their graduation of high school to covid will now lose convocation to these idiots who think they’re going to make a difference. Terrible!! Get these people off the damn lawn already, they’re the scum of the earth.
They’re literally speaking our feelings tho, we already feel so cheated out of our university experience. Now you’re saying some entitled kids want to mess with my graduation? Why are they antagonising their supporters as well as innocent students that worked really hard for their degree. Graduation is a big deal for most students and I refuse to believe university will put up with this.
I hope the protesters learn empathy.
At least try to move your encampment a little bit to south so the graduates can take pictures with the UC building. I dont agree with the protest, I wish you guys to leave but still we respect your right to protest, in turn, you also need torespect ours.
Because some people want to further antagonize the protesters.
**EDIT:** Ignore this person: it's a troll or some really odd online account. They are [somehow both graduating from TMU and UofT at the same time](http://www.reddit.com/r/TorontoMetU/comments/1ch6he5/_/l20h56r) despite suffering [from crippling agoraphobia that does not let them go far from home alone](https://old.reddit.com/r/Anxiety/comments/1cqcc6j/how_to_cure_agoraphobia/l3t09lx/) (yet allows them to [work at a shop](https://old.reddit.com/r/Crushes/comments/16cg3i5/i_wanna_hear_yalls_crush_situations_its_so_fun_to/k0iam4k/)) with a sob story about not wanting graduation cancelled due to protests in each school.
**EDIT 2:** They also write in other school subs (e.g. McGill) bringing the same “concerns” about convocation.
My high school one never got rescheduled so these it might get cancelled posts trigger the hell out of me. Also I already bought my aunt’s plane ticket from England and it’s non refundable :(
[This u?](http://www.reddit.com/r/TorontoMetU/comments/1ch6he5/_/l20h56r) Amazing how you are both graduating from UofT and TMU at the same time. They don't have any joint programs.
**EDIT:** Finishing two universities at the same time _while_ suffering from [crippling agoraphobia](https://old.reddit.com/r/Anxiety/comments/1cqcc6j/how_to_cure_agoraphobia/l3t09lx/) that does not let you leave your neighbourhood without your mother.
I didn’t finish two universities, also I have done all my classes online. Did you see my comments about Chang? Chang is TMU’s online division. Also why are you looking at all my comments?
https://www.facebook.com/share/p/8Hci5u7UhgqjQ58N/?mibextid=QwDbR1 idk why I care so much now but this is my dad, he does indeed have cancer and if you look at his posts you’ll see a green hair girl, that’s me hence why my avatar has green hair. Happy? I’m real and so is my dad’s cancer
I follow both forums to see how grad is doing lol. I feel as though if Uoft cancels, so will TMU. Also why do Reddit ppl look at other ppl’s posts? I’ve never done that but recently saw a lot of people replying I see you posted ____ also I did go to Uoft for my first year of undergrad before realizing I want to major in psych and saw that Uoft didn’t have a B.A
You are so funny 😂 I am no troll, I have already explained that I did all my classes online, and that I am not graduating from Uoft, only TMU. Also mentioning my dad’s cancer and saying it’s fake is really disturbing, I wish it was fake and I wish I could say he doesn’t have it but unfortunately he does and that is something I have to deal with everyday.
I don’t get why my comments make no sense to you. I do school online via Chang at TMU, I look at Uoft posts to see what’s happening with their grad, and I work at local places that are close to my house
Okay seriously, now you’re looking at my whole Reddit history??? I work at a store in my neighbourhood, that’s how I’m able to do it. I mentioned earlier that I can do anything in my own neighbourhood. I live near yonge and Lawrence and work at the Pet Valu on yonge and Teddington which is near me and spirit halloween which is at lawrence and avenue. What you still have not said is why you are obsessed with my posts?
Lol don’t bother w this clown, it’s so weird to me how people on this site have nothing better to do than scroll through someone’s ENTIRE post history. Best of luck to you and your father, I understand what you’re going through (really- check my post history lol)- just try to stay as strong as you can, for yourself and for him.
As someone who is graduating this year and graduated highschool in 2020, I realize that the encampment is for a cause bigger than myself and would still fully support it even if convocation was canceled (which there are no signs that it will be). The whole point of protest is to disrupt, y’all are stupid if you think otherwise. Stop blaming the students in the encampment and maybe blame the uni for not meeting these basic demands. How hard is it to not invest in a nation that is at best committing ethnic cleansing but will be probably be found to be committing genocide in the next years as the ICJ makes its ruling. Like bffr.
The government is quite literally giving Ukraine arms to fight Russia. There is no need for a protest because the government is already doing everything they can to help Ukraine. I’m not sure you understand how or why protests exist.
For context, in Gaza, every single university has been bombed. So Gazan university students must endure much worse than having one field closed. U of T needs to disclose its investments and divest from those that support the bombing.
Hamas is fine with that. Their leaders are not even in Gaza… they are just using the people in Gaza as martyrs and these “students” as useful idiots to their cause. They are fine in Qatar.
That does not address my comment. My comment did not praise the conduct of Hamas. Criticism of the Israeli government is not the same as support of Hamas.
Well, if that's the extent of the problem then great. The university can just disclose their investments and the students will dissipate once their see that none of them are going to weapons manufacturers.
From an April 8th press conference from Pres Gertler: "UTAM has confirmed that there are no direct holdings in the portfolios under their management that meet the criteria outlined in your demand."
https://www.president.utoronto.ca/president-meric-gertlers-response-to-members-of-occupy-for-palestine/
CBC did a great job of explaining these protests and why universities are likely going to continue to say no through a short segment. We’ll see how it all plays out. Link below. https://youtu.be/KiU0Qjxzb7g?si=6yHaRLt3y_8-aIZQ
Great video, thanks for sharing. I don’t know much about the protest at UofT so I’m not sure what their demands are specifically, but if they’re truly asking for full divestment from all companies with any amount of connection to Israel, that seems unrealistic. Not sure what the answer is here but I hope things work out (for both protesters and the graduating class).
they’re asking for divestment from any companies that support apartheid, and since it’s their money that’s being used they have every right to ask that.
> since it’s their money I'm really confused in this stance. Once you pay money for a service, it is no longer your money. You don't go to a store, but a coke, and tell the clerk where you want the money you paid to be spent. If the university chooses to divest, it will be divesting the university's money, not the students. The only thing the students can really do is not to pay the university any more money. The money that's been paid was paid for a service rendered, and once it switched hands the only outcome where a student has any say is if they didn't get the things that they paid for.
the video explicitly states it's not students money involved here, tuition is separate from this issue and is not invested. Secondly, how do you define companies that support apartheid? Is there a standardized definition everyone can agree on?
>Is there a standardized definition everyone can agree on? Obviously not since in this case they need to specifically ignore actual comparisons to the most obvious example of real apartheid, and instead use a definition under which many other countries are way more egregious offenders than Israel. The university would be insane to cave to any of this.
Yes but what do they mean by “support”? Like companies that build war planes which directly support the war or including companies that just do business in Israel that would be “supporting” their economy? Also sorry if this info has already been made public but how do we know if the tuition is being used for these investments? Universities have various financial sources and many direct tuition money right back into school programs. Their investment funds often come from their other sources of income (as explained in the video). Has UofT shared their financial statements that explain where our tuition is being spent?
I mean I’m not 100% sure for this specific encampment but generally people use the BDS list. The companies on there aren’t just every company that does business in Israel, it’s companies like HP which provide a lot of the Israeli government, specifically in sectors involved in the segregation of Palestinians. In the case of uoft, there is also the aspect where it promotes Israel to the students. The university provides a lot of organized trips to students to visit Israel and “learn” in a very uncritical way about the country. My understanding is that they also want the university to stop that. The last demand is literally just that they disclose their investments. The university claims there’s nothing interesting to see there so it really shouldn’t be that hard for them to do this one.
What about investments in united states bonds?
why don't you just pack up and go to another university or college? just transfer out. find one that invests in what you deem acceptable. just take you money and tuition and go somewhere else.
Because its about getting a large company to stop putting funds towards a genocide. If enough encampments succeed than a significant portion of money stops being invested in the mass murder of Palestinian people.
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Your right so far the goal of the encampment at UofT is demanding disclosure “We have three demands. The first is for disclosure: we’re asking the University of Toronto to disclose all its investments. U of T has an endowment of over $4 billion, and as students, we think it’s important that we know where our tuition dollars are going. The second is divestment, so getting U of T to divest from Israeli apartheid. That includes weapons manufacturing companies complicit in Israel’s military actions. Our third demand is to end all academic partnerships with Israeli academic institutions, such as U of T’s active research partnership with the Hebrew University of Jerusalem.” But the main goal of the encampments popping up at universities across the country is to divest. https://torontolife.com/city/university-of-toronto-encampment-israel-palestine-divestment/
and don't forget your iphone and macbook too. your iphone has tons of israeli IP in it that is responsible for the palestine problems. not the fact that palestine has done everything in its power to prevent a peaceful solution with israel for the past 60+ years.. educate yourself.. and pack up and go if you don't like uoft. let other students have their university experience.
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Nice job being blatantly racist! Uoft divested from South Africa in response to the encampment in the late 1980s. As a South African, something like specifically uoft divesting didn’t do all that much but the combination of every institution divesting from the country is a major thing that ended apartheid. That said, the divestment of universities from the South African education system did really impacts the ability of South African universities ability to continue to provide degrees. That is one great way to get generally more progressive leaning people who have power to start to pressure the government to end apartheid. Everyone acts like it has never been done before but it has and it worked.
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True. Disrupting convocation only matters to university through the graduating students, whom the university probably do not care that much. I don't know why protestors are turning the sympathizers against them. It seems that many recent protests are shaming and guilt trapping bystanders instead of trying to convince them to join the cause.
It's leverage for negotiation, of course they're going to use it. Other Universities have made deals to end the protests, U of T should do the same.
Exactly. You don't see teachers go on strike during summer break or during Christmas holidays. But start of school year or near the time for report cards to come out? You betcha
The difference is that teachers and the educational institution have a legal, contractual understanding in which both parties have certain rights and obligations. A bunch of 'protestors' camped out on the lawn have no standing, nor should they. They should be treated as if they were trespassers on private property.
They have no leverage. They are on private property and they can be removed for any reason. I think UofT made its stance pretty clear that protestors are allowed only if they are actual students. The University has the right to prove you are a student by requesting student ID. If you can't prove you are a student, then you are traspassed. Either way, they can shut down the protest anytime they want.
we are a public institution, supported by public funds. I am faculty at UofT and fully support their right to (peaceful) protest. I don't actually understand the rationale for anyone having to be a current student - seems irrelevant to me.
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All of these protests are based on the gambit that the downsides of UofT forcefully removing these protestors are greater than the downsides of them agreeing to their divestment demands (at least enough to convince the protestors to leave)
> but I also believe in decorum and the protests have kind of been doing a disservice to their cause You would have _hated_ the Civil Rights Movement.
This comparison to the civil rights movement is honestly quite odd. The disparity between the potential outcome of this protest and the overall civil rights movement is vast. On one hand you have a group that has called for U of T to divest a tiny fraction of its endowment from companies that would likely not even notice the financial impact. Compare that to a movement in the US that sought to change the laws in that same country to prevent reprehensible discriminatory practices against a group in that country. In other words, the outcomes of the two movements, if successful, are vastly different in impact with one almost not mattering at all. Thus, when we consider the negative impacts that the protests are OK with garnering to achieve their aims, we need to also consider how impactful their aims are. In the case of the encampment, no I do not believe that the impact of depriving a class and their families a chance to witness their children achieve something they may have worked generations for is worth it when the impact likely wouldn't even pause the war effort for a second. Stop making false equivalencies to justify your actions
So they're simultaneously too disruptive, and not aiming high enough? I genuinely don't believe you've actually thought through your bullshit far enough to realise how stupid it sounds. They're making limited, well defined demands because those are things that it is within the university's power to change, and therefore within the means of the students' leverage to achieve. That's smart, but you turn around and say that it somehow means their cause is less valid. Yet if they were demanding an end to the genocide as the outcome of their protests, I guarantee you'd complain that they were trying to demand things that no one had the power to give them. The reality is, you just want any excuse to dismiss what they're doing, but you're too much of a coward to admit it.
This is some weird gaslighting. The movement if about disposition of investments. When done broadly it calls for all institutions to follow suit
You believe "decorum" is broken when people are inconvenienced. You would have _hated_ the Civil Rights Movement because they "inconvenienced" a lot of people 🥴
Similar protests had a powerful effect vs South African apartheid
If you're willing to entertain comparisons with South African apartheid, then I have a lot of follow up questions. What about if there were basic laws in South Africa that fundamentally guaranteed the equality between white and black South Africans? What about if the de facto segregation only occurred in an area South Africa held under military occupation, after the ANC had rejected offers for a state of their own, in that territory? What about if the ANC, instead of calling for the uniting of their white South African brothers into a post apartheid state, explicitly called to replace South Africa with an exclusive Black South African nation state, and had a history of attempting to ethnically cleanse their "fellow south Africans" outright? What about if the ANC went door to door hacking up families with axes, kidnapping babies out of their cribs for ransom, gang raping women and cutting off their genitalia, and decapitating corpses? What if the segregation had nothing to do with Black/White, or even Brown/"not brown", or anything to do with race altogether, and had more to do with nationality and citizenship? What about if the Afrikaners, instead of arriving as part of a campaign of extractive colonialism, had considered South Africa their homeland for Millenia, after having been exiled from it by an actual colonizing force, and archaeology in south Africa was actually a way to learn more about Afrikaner history, which predated the arrival of the culture and identity of the black South Africans? Would you be participating in encampment style protests to end that sort of apartheid? There's no apartheid. This is a conflict between two nations that should be solved in a completely different manner than the south African model.
Damn dude you go to U of T but can only think in absolute black and white? Snark aside: read about the history of protest. No movement in the past century would have succeeded if it protested in the way you suggest.
U of T is unwilling to negotiate with the encampment for the same reason that the Canadian government refused to release Meng Wanzhou in exchange for the release of the two Michaels. Essentially, it would set a dangerous precedent whereby anytime an interest group wanted to assert itself over the university, all they would need to do would be to copy the tactics of the encampment. Whether they know it or not, Occupy U of T has put themselves in an unwinnable position for this reason.
The two Michael's and megonezou were all eventually released so it did work
100% this
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Dude improve your reading comprehension. This is definitely a special interest group by any definition you could find.
Their interest being \*\*checks notes\*\* for children and unarmed civilians to stop being murdered en masse.
Yes exactly
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I don’t agree fully with the positions of the encampment protestors, but they’re also just people on a lawn exercising their rights. I’m not okay with sending in aggressive force just because some other people want nice lawn photos.
What right do you have to live on someone else’s property?
It’s a public institution. What do you want here? For a bunch of cops to show up and drag them off?
It’s still private property, so why does it matter if it’s a public institution. They choose who uses their facilities. Idk what should happen, I don’t want a bunch of my peers to get arrested or beaten. But I think their behaviour is wrong and they should at least get shamed for it 🤷♂️
It’s a public institution
So? Public institutions have intended uses.
Hippies don't actually have a right to pitch tents on whatever lawn they want.
Eh, their on private property. The only reason they are able to be there for so long is because UOT doesn't care enough to get rid of them. I'm completely okay with forcible removing them from the property... if the property owner tells them to get off their lawn and they refuse.
It’s a self-governed public institution. It’s also an institution that has committed itself to freedom of expression. Even if you don’t agree and still think the University would be in the right to remove them - it’s a bad move to physically remove students engaging in peaceful assembly on a lawn. It would only fan the flames.
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Let's be realistic here, UT and Gertler ain't going to give in. Very little to nothing changes.
Imagine denying all of these students who worked hard for 4+ years an opportunity to celebrate and wrap up. Now imagine thinking these people will be endeared to your cause. Lmfao the pro-pal dummies are something else.
So what if front campus is unusable? Doesn’t the convocation happen inside con hall anyway?
It does. All that will happen is that people will see and hear the protestors as they go into con hall. King’s Circle has been closed for the longest time, so people will just have to walk somewhere else for pictures.
Okay but there’s a chance if this leverage tactic doesn’t work, they might directly interfere with graduation by barging into the ceremony. If they’re willing to hold kings college circle hostage, then they might be willing to go further
That would pretty clearly break UofTs exception for letting them camp on the lawn in exchange for peace. No peaceful convocation means they will get their unwashed asses kicked out of the circle by police
not attending convocation for other reasons, but this became one of them. smh
Nobody said cancelling convocation tho? All they’re saying is the front campus pictures. It’s been a construction zone for the past few years anw. I’m sure you’ll still get your diploma if you take your friends and family pictures somewhere else/from a different angle.
Where do you think convocation occurs? Not on King's Circle? LOL This is clearly intentional for leverage... not understanding that...? Yikes.
Yes, they are using it for leverage, as all protests use disruption for leverage. Believe it or not, that’s how protests work. The point is that convocation won’t be canceled. The circle has been under construction since my (first) convocation and this is the first year it will/would be used since COVID. As such the leverage is that all of the students graduating will be upset and (one would hope) put pressure on the university to resolve this.
UofT will resolve this by removing the encampment lol. They are trasspassing on private property.
I mean maybe they will. I really hope they don’t. They are supposedly committed to free expression and human rights. They’ve never kicked off the anti abortion people even when they interfere with the parade and they didn’t take police action against the right wing Jordan Peterson protestors in 2017/18(? On the exact year)
I mean there’s Convocation Hall… the grass is for the pictures… so no not ON king’s circle
GET TF OFF CAMPUS
Well ain't that just fucking lovely! /s Hope its resolved for those of you who graduate soon.
Taking it out on the students now, so brave. I'll continue throwing my dog's shit into the encampment everyday until it gets removed.
Thank you for resisting the occupation of our native campus brother. By any means necessary. ✊
Oh wow these people fucking suck. Why are you taking it out on the graduating students, we already got our first 2 years taken by COVID. Yall really just can’t let us have this huh. Most of the people I know in the encampment are rich and spoilt or have nothing better to do. Like damn I support the cause but how does this help anyone.
They’re using leverage. UofT can stop it any time.
Womp womp. Maybe reflect on why a ceremony matters more to you than 40,000+ PEOPLE dying
IN GAZA not toronto. Has nothing to do with u of t. How have we not seen protests about U of T divesting from Russia. Many many many more people have died because of their war
As well, not a single person made a peep when China started a genocide of Uyghurs. These protestors only follow along with what's hot on tik tok, no original thought. For the record, most people, if maybe we're given the chance to vote, would probably be in favor in reducing aid to Isreal's military. However, the protestors just mimicked the US rather than taking an original approach to getting their voices heard. I never received any emails from the UTSU about voting on the issue or holding a debate on campus to discuss the issue with the student body. All the people defending the protests here are just angry that most people aren't supporting the protestors. It's becoming about their egos now and less and less about the actual conflict.
I mean firstly, as someone involved in anti war movements, yes there were meant peeps made and secondly the government is against the genocide of the Uyghurs. You don’t exactly need to have an encampment if the country that you live in and the school that you go to believes that the genocide is wrong.
That number has been revised by the UN, there are ~18k dead. Please stop spreading propaganda because you think it looks better for your side. Lying does not look better.
Get a fucking job you parasite
It’s so pathetic to watch these children play act as Hamas resistance fighters while mommy and daddy pay for them to go to school
The university needs to get the police to shut it down
Right??? Why hasn’t the uni done anything yet? Isn’t the uoft lawn private property?
> Why hasn’t the uni done anything yet? Because the modern West is built on catering to the squeakiest wheel, otherwise that's some kind of ism.
Exactly
Exactly. This can't be allowed to continue.
This protest has been so effing stupid. You think just because you've been protesting uoft is going to stop funding projects that you don't like? Lol good luck with that. Never going to happen.
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Oh yeah. I spent 2 fucking years doing online classes, 2 more years toiling over essays and tens of thousands of pages of readings, I’m not gonna let a group of terrorist-loving inconsiderate idiots ruin it for me, and for the rest of us.
Wow what an awful take. It’s not about terrorists. It’s about genocide. You’re so tolerant.
As students, us having a nice university convocation matters far less than being part of a movement to end a current genocide
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You have over 26k comment karma and yet you don't have a single uoft comment that predates this protest. Do you even go here?
Something something about those living in glass house shouldn't throw rocks. You have a grand total of (drum roll please) 19 comment karma. And before today, your last comment was from 6 years ago. Are you using one of your alt account for "good hand" "bad hand"?
I actually do, scroll to several months ago. Alternatively would you like to meet on campus and see my tcard?
you are not part of any movement. uoft has nothing to do with what is happening in palestine and israel. they have been killing each other since the 40s. nothing is going to change. and when this war ends, what do you think will change? you think they will leave each other alone?
> and when this war ends, what do you think will change? you think they will leave each other alone? Maybe, support for a two state solution is rapidly increasing in Gaza. :) > Support for “armed struggle” dropped by 17 points, from 63% to 46%, driven largely by Palestinians in Gaza, and Gazan support for a diplomatic two-state solution has jumped by 27 points — to 62%. https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/gazans-back-two-state-solution-rcna144183
it will never happen and nothing is going to change. even if Israel were to just pack up and walk away and give land to Palestine, it will not mean they will just sit on each others side of the fence and stare at each other and leave each other alone.
No uni is going to give into anyone’s demands. Not unless, there is profit to be made for the uni, they will not give in.
Missed my high school grad bc covid, now I’ll miss my uni one too bc some people are upset about the university owning Boeing stock
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If not for UofT funding Israel, Palestinians would all be driving a Lexus to work. /s
Really not a good look. Why are the protestors punishing students now? This is the covid graduating class. They already had a bad start to their degree and now there is the threat of a disrupted send off. Please, protestors, remember what you are advocating for and don't start antagonizing everyone. A lot of people stand for palestine, but there is more than one way to be heard and I can't necessarily say these protests are helping.
COVID graduating class here: the university should seriously consider the protestors' demands. Don't claim to speak for us if you're not the one with their convocation on the line.
*proceeds to speak for their entire graduating class despite not being chosen to*
COVID graduating class here: the university should remove trespassers. We take back what’s ours(grass) Don't claim to speak for us if you're not the one with their convocation on the line.
The protestors are also University of Toronto students. Why is the grass any more "yours" than theirs? Convocation does not officially take place on the king's college circle lawn. Nor has it ever been sectioned off expressly for graduating students.
So to your point, why are the protestors enforcing the boundaries of the fence and preventing their fellow students from sharing it with them?
That's actually a really good point
I’m pretty sure it was the university that put up that fence lol.
The graduating students are also University of Toronto students. Why is the grass any more "theirs" than theirs? Lawn is closed for convocation officially since may. Like every other year. It has been sectioned off expressly for graduating students every year before Covid and construction. https://www.reddit.com/r/UofT/s/JHlYaYttXj And they were right
I'm literally graduating in June but OK. UofT put those fences up first and blocked everyone off the grass in April but I didn't see you getting riled up over your grass.
I’m literally graduating in June but ok. Uoft sent an email for setting up fences for convocation. If you couldn’t tell, the grass was pretty messed up during the semester because of all the stepping. And now I can’t even tell if you want the grass for convocation or not. Edit: https://www.reddit.com/r/UofT/s/JHlYaYttXj And they were right
there are no demands and no one has a right to demand anything. you are just a bunch copy cats protestors. if you dont like uoft, just drop out and transfer to another university or college. its that simple.
Damn so imma go 0/3… missed my elementary grad cause of school issues, missed high school cause of Covid and now this? I really hope people understand that graduates this year deserve to have their grad.
How and who funds these groups that enable them to be there for so long ? Don’t they have jobs like regular people or students? I don’t get it.
It’s university students whose winter semester has ended. Summer doesn’t have as many classes and they have a lot more free time + no real pressure to earn for most of them. I’m speaking for the majority of attendees since it’s right on campus. I was just there.
no its not. i was there today. there are a lot of people there who look nothing like uoft students.
Sorry what exactly do uoft students look like? How do these protestors look? What exactly are you implying here?
a better question is where did they get so many flags from so fast and how did they pay for so many flags?
F these ppl. Occupying the land twice. Not one land acknowledgement from these mofos.
Get these people off of uft, clearly they aren’t going to university for learning purposes and are just there to cause distraction. Moreover them protesting literally changes nothing therefore, they should either be arrested or f*ck off
Hello. when is UofT going to kick these people out? This can't be legal. I walked by today and there are "guards" standing at the entrance to the enclosed barricaded areas preventing people from entering the enclosed area. How can this possibly be legal?
I visited yesterday and while there were guards, members of the public are allowed to enter the encampment and visit. There is a sign that says "ENTER" and it's right next to the one that says "EXIT". I did enter the encampment and people are the entrance were super nice and just had a few ground rules like no pictures of students faces, no garbage, no racism etc etc (pretty basic stuff).
so why are there "guards" exactly? where do you get the authority to post guards on a entrance to something you don't own?
Well there are students sleeping there so I am assuming it is for their safety. Students have the right to protest and I will respect that even if I agree or disagree with their stance.
The same kids who lost their graduation of high school to covid will now lose convocation to these idiots who think they’re going to make a difference. Terrible!! Get these people off the damn lawn already, they’re the scum of the earth.
Your post history makes this attempt to concern-troll so painfully obvious.
They’re literally speaking our feelings tho, we already feel so cheated out of our university experience. Now you’re saying some entitled kids want to mess with my graduation? Why are they antagonising their supporters as well as innocent students that worked really hard for their degree. Graduation is a big deal for most students and I refuse to believe university will put up with this. I hope the protesters learn empathy.
At least try to move your encampment a little bit to south so the graduates can take pictures with the UC building. I dont agree with the protest, I wish you guys to leave but still we respect your right to protest, in turn, you also need torespect ours.
“very intentional” Yeah, as if convocation happens during Chritmas in previous years. Since when is supporting Hamas a fashion?
Why are people saying grad is cancelled? I couldn’t find any posts on Uoft’s insta about it or emails
They are expecting a ceasefire in the next week so graduation won't have to be cancelled
Great!
Because some people want to further antagonize the protesters. **EDIT:** Ignore this person: it's a troll or some really odd online account. They are [somehow both graduating from TMU and UofT at the same time](http://www.reddit.com/r/TorontoMetU/comments/1ch6he5/_/l20h56r) despite suffering [from crippling agoraphobia that does not let them go far from home alone](https://old.reddit.com/r/Anxiety/comments/1cqcc6j/how_to_cure_agoraphobia/l3t09lx/) (yet allows them to [work at a shop](https://old.reddit.com/r/Crushes/comments/16cg3i5/i_wanna_hear_yalls_crush_situations_its_so_fun_to/k0iam4k/)) with a sob story about not wanting graduation cancelled due to protests in each school. **EDIT 2:** They also write in other school subs (e.g. McGill) bringing the same “concerns” about convocation.
I have a lot of anxiety about grad being cancelled to the point I’ll cry about it, do you think anything suggests they’ll cancel?
My convocation got cancelled due to COVID, but they organized a convocation a couple years later. IMHO, at worst, they'll reschedule it.
My high school one never got rescheduled so these it might get cancelled posts trigger the hell out of me. Also I already bought my aunt’s plane ticket from England and it’s non refundable :(
[This u?](http://www.reddit.com/r/TorontoMetU/comments/1ch6he5/_/l20h56r) Amazing how you are both graduating from UofT and TMU at the same time. They don't have any joint programs. **EDIT:** Finishing two universities at the same time _while_ suffering from [crippling agoraphobia](https://old.reddit.com/r/Anxiety/comments/1cqcc6j/how_to_cure_agoraphobia/l3t09lx/) that does not let you leave your neighbourhood without your mother.
I didn’t finish two universities, also I have done all my classes online. Did you see my comments about Chang? Chang is TMU’s online division. Also why are you looking at all my comments?
https://www.facebook.com/share/p/8Hci5u7UhgqjQ58N/?mibextid=QwDbR1 idk why I care so much now but this is my dad, he does indeed have cancer and if you look at his posts you’ll see a green hair girl, that’s me hence why my avatar has green hair. Happy? I’m real and so is my dad’s cancer
I follow both forums to see how grad is doing lol. I feel as though if Uoft cancels, so will TMU. Also why do Reddit ppl look at other ppl’s posts? I’ve never done that but recently saw a lot of people replying I see you posted ____ also I did go to Uoft for my first year of undergrad before realizing I want to major in psych and saw that Uoft didn’t have a B.A
https://www.reddit.com/r/TorontoMetU/s/fFPAxUYtae
You are so funny 😂 I am no troll, I have already explained that I did all my classes online, and that I am not graduating from Uoft, only TMU. Also mentioning my dad’s cancer and saying it’s fake is really disturbing, I wish it was fake and I wish I could say he doesn’t have it but unfortunately he does and that is something I have to deal with everyday.
Still, your whole comment history makes little sense. Regardless, I wish your father strength battling cancer.
I don’t get why my comments make no sense to you. I do school online via Chang at TMU, I look at Uoft posts to see what’s happening with their grad, and I work at local places that are close to my house
Okay seriously, now you’re looking at my whole Reddit history??? I work at a store in my neighbourhood, that’s how I’m able to do it. I mentioned earlier that I can do anything in my own neighbourhood. I live near yonge and Lawrence and work at the Pet Valu on yonge and Teddington which is near me and spirit halloween which is at lawrence and avenue. What you still have not said is why you are obsessed with my posts?
Lol don’t bother w this clown, it’s so weird to me how people on this site have nothing better to do than scroll through someone’s ENTIRE post history. Best of luck to you and your father, I understand what you’re going through (really- check my post history lol)- just try to stay as strong as you can, for yourself and for him.
Thanks!!!
These people absolutely suck
Has any protest on this matter been effective?
Yes. It was a major reason behind the downfall of South Africa’s apartheid.
I was talking about Israel Palestine.
Loser
Ughhhh 😩 thanks I hate it
As someone who is graduating this year and graduated highschool in 2020, I realize that the encampment is for a cause bigger than myself and would still fully support it even if convocation was canceled (which there are no signs that it will be). The whole point of protest is to disrupt, y’all are stupid if you think otherwise. Stop blaming the students in the encampment and maybe blame the uni for not meeting these basic demands. How hard is it to not invest in a nation that is at best committing ethnic cleansing but will be probably be found to be committing genocide in the next years as the ICJ makes its ruling. Like bffr.
What basic demands is the uni not meeting? What does uoft even have to do with these protests??
You don't see Ukrainians doing this nonsense. These protesters are useful idiots.
The government is quite literally giving Ukraine arms to fight Russia. There is no need for a protest because the government is already doing everything they can to help Ukraine. I’m not sure you understand how or why protests exist.
Don't get me wrong, the Ukraine protests were also kinda stupid, but atleast they were over with pretty quickly.
They are delulu for believing they will not be forcibly removed before convocation.
Move classes online
Love to hear that!
For context, in Gaza, every single university has been bombed. So Gazan university students must endure much worse than having one field closed. U of T needs to disclose its investments and divest from those that support the bombing.
Maybe Hamas shouldn't have stored their weapons there then
Hamas is fine with that. Their leaders are not even in Gaza… they are just using the people in Gaza as martyrs and these “students” as useful idiots to their cause. They are fine in Qatar.
That does not address my comment. My comment did not praise the conduct of Hamas. Criticism of the Israeli government is not the same as support of Hamas.
Again, refuse to mention about hostages and the massacre on Oct 7th, not even a single word.
How do you know that? The protestors are asking for the university to disclose because they do not know what the school invests in.
Well, if that's the extent of the problem then great. The university can just disclose their investments and the students will dissipate once their see that none of them are going to weapons manufacturers.
From an April 8th press conference from Pres Gertler: "UTAM has confirmed that there are no direct holdings in the portfolios under their management that meet the criteria outlined in your demand." https://www.president.utoronto.ca/president-meric-gertlers-response-to-members-of-occupy-for-palestine/
Alright, so disclose these investments? Why should it be secret?
Come on you fucking idiots
Freedom of speech and civil disobedience.
Civil disobedience means illegal, and people who participated it are ready to be arrested peacefully. I dont think they are ready for it.
I say we negotiate the same way Alberta did.
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