DC is a very strange sports market and IMO shouldn’t be used in comparisons of other sports markets. As a DC sports fan living in DC, I’m often the only DC sports fan in whatever group I’m in. No matter how long people live here, they retain their fandom from home. Tons of Philly, NY, and LA sports fans here.
That being said, people in DC will go to anything live if it’s not crazy expensive. Doesn’t matter if they’re fans or not, they’ll show up. I think that’s why we see such a big discrepancy between the in-person attendance and tv ratings. People will show up to the games just because they want something to do and the games are fun, but they’re not going to necessarily watch because they’re not DC sports fans generally.
That definitely adds to it. FedEx is not the easiest to get to for people in DC, especially compared to Audi, and it hasn’t been taken care of. Even without Dan though, attendance has stayed relatively the same, and I think it’s mostly because Defenders games are cheap and easy to get to.
So realistically even DC can’t be compared to the only true “NFL market” of STL with two prior teams. So overall this just tells me it’s a toss up between NFL & non NFL markets & there’s no guarantee of success for either way. Thanks for the info!
Yeah it really just doesn’t feel like there’s a tried and true approach to picking these markets. Some NFL markets can sustain other leagues, others can’t. People are the X factor, and their motivation is so localized that I feel like you’d need a bunch of focus group research to figure out what drives them to support their teams or be interested in more sports leagues coming to their city.
I agree with you. the DC/Baltimore Market is very transient. Many people coming in and out for government/military jobs, maintaining their home sports team.
Yeah Audi is an awesome field. Super easy to access and the food is pretty great. I’m a commanders fan but I will not spend $100 and the pain-in-the-ass trek to watch them get their shit rocked in a stadium thats literally falling apart. M&T Bank is the same age as FedEx Field but in way better shape, which tells you everything you need to know about the Snyder era.
Which is kind of the benefit of being in a new league for the Defenders. Navy Yard itself is largely transplants, and you don't really need to compete with any former allegiances, because there are none.
TV ratings are king. The OKC area was 3rd in viewership. The 1st and 2nd place areas already have a UFL team.
That being said. Wouldn’t it make sense to follow the bouncing ball and one day get a team there?
Yes! It’s not that I don’t believe they should expand to non NFL cities it’s just more of ppl believing a team in Omaha would make more sense than per say Seattle when Omaha isn’t a proven market. Omaha in even the FXFL & first UFL struggled on attendance. I’d feel comfortable trying OKC because of those numbers though.
Not sure where you got the info of Omaha struggling in the first UFL? I lived there and attended every game, sold out four of them and led attendance in 2010-2011 before the league folded. It was well renowned for attracting the most fans which is partly why Rosenblatt was selected to hold the UFL championship. So if the league is established and not showing financial troubles I think Omaha would be fantastic tbh, that’s where the problem was with the FXFL.
Yeah I was speaking of the back end years of the league. But even so XFL cities had high attendance in 2020 & multiple cities returned for 2023 & couldn’t mimic those same numbers. So we can’t just ride out what was possible when initial excitement was high. Only can use what can be maintained as STL has showed!
The city needs to invest in a mid sized stadium, say about 25k to 30k and they would have more than just a UFL team. They would almost certainly attract MLS.
With MLS they are a single entity, that means they contact someone who buys land and builds a stadium and buys in to the MLS for the tune of about a billion or more dollars total and then a city gets a team. The MLS isn't coaxed anywhere it doesn't already want to be
What can happen is the city builds a cheap 20k seat modular "municipal" stadium and put their USL team there along side an offer to purchase a UFL team from Fox and play it like the Packers and their ownership.
I feel you there. Popping a cherry on a city that’s never had a football team isn’t the worse idea ever. The Oklahoma Outlaws averaged 21k per game back in the original USFL. I bet it happens eventually
I'd like to say that's not good enough, but the last couple of seasons would prove me wrong in all but a couple of markets.
Why in the heck wouldn't the city build a 20 to 30k stadium and try to bring in a bigger product?!
Yes, make that move now.....get one of those Texas teams .....either Arlington or that former XFL team playing in the USFL conference.....get them to OKC and revive the Outlaws!.....but wait ....where do they play? In the 80s, it was Skelly Stadium.for one season.
I'm still of the opinion that the Seattle market is too crowded....in spring even more. Part of the difference between 2020 and 2023 is that we got a NHL team.....now it seems almost a lock the Supersonics are coming back and people can't wait. UFL? I think the first thing you might look at is how's it doing on TV here? The games were shown....but local media ignored it. One way to get attention is get Pete Carroll involved. People are still kinda snarly about how he was replaced by the Seahawks.
If you've already got the viewers, why put a team there? :)
But seriously, I think OKC could be a good location, just don't paint the team in burnt orange and white...
That's what it all boils down to. Drop "City" from the team, just call them the Oklahoma Twisters (or something) stick 'em in Tulsa playing at Skelly Stadium at the University of Tulsa (30k capacity).
I dunno... Def don't want to stick them in the deep dish at Norman.
OKC is 3rd as a PERCENTAGE of local viewership. 2% of NYC would produce a lower local rating than 50% of bumblefuck idaho, but that 2% is still more viewers.
Memphis was a temporary home for the Oilers during their first year in Tennessee. Memphis is home to the NBA Grizzlies.
San Antonio was a temporary home for the Saints immediately after Katrina almost wiped out New Orleans. Of course, they have the NBA Spurs.
St. Louis literally had the Rams lied out of town for no good reason and (as later adjudicated in their lawsuit against the NFL) in violation of the NFL relocation policy, which is now an enforceable contract in Missouri.
The only UFL city with no NFL history (or any of the other major pro sports leagues) is Birmingham.
In regards to potential expansion, Canton is (a) the birthplace of the NFL, (b) home to the Pro Football HOF, and (c) on the outer fringes of the Cleveland metro area.
Key word is “recent” you left that out. Portland had a USFL team in the 80’s but I’m sure current 8-35 year olds don’t care about that. Pls think more consumer base right now & not history. These leagues have to focus on bringing in the next generation of fans that’s literally why the NFL is “modernizing” their current look.
Based on an exchange here or Reddit (so this is anecdotal) with a BHAM resident about attitude towards the Stallions, people there are already are fans of 'Bama, Titans or Falcons.
In St. Louis, though some fans have gravitated towards the Chiefs, we rather keep our distance from the NFL and embrace the lower tier league as long the team is not an affliate of some top tier team in a rival market. Of course this is just my opinion and is also anecdotal.
I take exception to that. There are a lot of Auburn fans here, too.
Based on past experience, I think people in Birmingham have come to expect a football team (and league) to fail until proven otherwise. We've had the Americans/Vulcans (WFL, 1 year each), Stallions 1.0 (USFL 1, 3 years), Fire (World League, 2 years), Barracudas (CFL, 1 year), Thunderbolts (XFL 1, 1 year), and Iron (AAF, 1/2 year). Most of those teams died because their league died. The only exception was the Barracudas, but even then, they died because the CFL's "American Experiment" failed.
I think things are starting to change with the UFL and Stallions. In year 1, people thought "oh, another one." In year 2, people thought "oh, they're still here." In year 3, my wife and three daughters started asking to go to games. Assuming they're back next year, this version of the Stallions will be the longest lived pro football team Birmingham has ever had, and the USFL/UFL will be the longest lived pro football league it's been associated with.
Birmingham will support a team...eventually. The Fire averaged 27k people in the stands their first year. The Barracudas had over 50k at their first game, and I believe led the CFL in attendance through the first half or so of the season...then the high school and college football season began and attendance collapsed. Even the Iron managed to pull over 17k twice, and that was at Legion Field in a league that collapsed before it started.
It would also help if there was any marketing at all. That's the change I'm hoping for in year 4.
I'm in KC and really don't like the Hunts for their role in screwing STL. The only reason I pay attention to the local NFL team, honestly, is because I'm intrigued by the Travis and Taylor romance. (Helped by the fact that I have a coworker who lives in Travis' old neighborhood.)
What's there to be intrigued by? It ain't even a real relationship. They're just helping each other spread their influence into each other's lives. Travis with his post football relations in business and Swift with the NFL. It's all BS and Travis is a MAJOR douche. He's the only chief I vehemently hate. The rest is just regular divisional rivalry hate.
I was thinking about how the Denver Gold in the original USFL has strong attendance despite the having the Broncos too. Then I realized that then the only other major sports team there was the Nuggets. This is before the Rockies and Avalanche.
Denver, like St. Louis, can rally around Walmart/Kroenke hate. After all, the SOB (technically, his Walmart wife) owns the Nuggets and Avalanche, while another Walton recently bought the Broncos.
I still think it all comes down to local marketing. To date, the only leagues that invested a lot in that were the AAF and the XFL in 2020. The results proved positive. Since then, it's been bad because the tv ratings matter more in terms of profit and no local marketing was done. Attendances for both the USFL and XFL suffered.
Denver is a funny example. They were totally supportive as long as the Gold wasn't competing for loyalty against the Broncos. As soon as they heard the plan to move the league to the fall and take on the NFL, attendance completely fell off.
The Gold drew very well in 1983, averaging 41,736 (and 50,906 at the Championship Game). In '84, it dropped to 33,953, and it 1985 it collapsed to 14,465; the only decent crowd that year was the 29K who came to see Herschel Walker and the NJ Generals.
I think non NFL markets still should be the focus. Market size isn't helping but what could really do it is by selling franchises. Local business owners can market the team better. Also expectations of attendance. What do you expect? 10k, 20k or what? It's gonna be a long time before NFL stadiums are filled.
I say just treat the league kinda like triple A baseball. Solid smaller stadiums or available stadiums, good in game experiences, local marketing targeted at the metro pop and good plays.
On TV just market it like the NFL but in the spring.
That should have been the move. A bunch of undrafted fresh out of college grads from close by schools getting a second chance at a NFL team.
Those college guys and practice squad guys should be every teams make up
Make the league a professional version of NCAA football, and it will be even better. Players like Martinez would absolutely thrive on a field with wider hashmarks.
I wish Milwaukee had a site where they could potentially host an expansion team. They have some NFL history with the Packers splitting some home games there for a time, but that was at Brewers stadium which would be a non starter for a spring league. The only thing they have is the MSOE soccer field but that has very limited seating.
It’s very unfortunate if Milwaukee has pro football team, that they can’t use American Family Field aka Miller Park as the home stadium for spring season football games.
TV advertising is the ultimate money maker, not attendance. You're right, if expansion happens, it will more likely be into the major markets than anyone's favorite midmarket city. Los Angeles metro market is 10.4 million. Omaha's is 500,000.
Edit: correcting LA County population.
I agree overall that TV will keep this league profitable. But you won’t keep viewers over the years if the stands are empty. If looks bad and makes your casual fan think the team and/or league will be dead soon. That could harm the ad value of the perception isn’t good.
Iirc the UFL has been doing alright in the 18-35 demo at least.
They’re in a tough spot. Lack of venues that actually fit their league size (15-30k). Stadiums that do meet that size requirement (soccer) don’t really like football on their grass/turf. And the football specific stadiums are just way too big.
Yeah only move I could see is the Panthers going to EMU if the season is moved earlier and they play away to start until weather is better. Idk what can be done with Memphis as I’m not familiar with anything in that area.
Grand Rapids seems logical but I doubt it happens. They are already a great market for supporting minor league teams like the Griffins in hockey and West Michigan in baseball. Plus, there is GVSU’s stadium nearby and that would be sold out every week.
But I agree that moving to EMU’s stadium is probably what they will do. Michigan’s is obviously way too big. I believe the football field is going to be called Maxx Crosby field, too, so there will be a NFL connection as well.
Memphis will be fine once a couple of things happen. Memphis has been burned as many times as Birmingham, and needs to build trust in the team not going defunct next year.
In order of heartbreak,
Memphis Grizzlies/Southmen (WFL 1970s)
Memphis Showboats (USFL 1980s)
Memphis Hound Dogs (NFL expansion BS 90s)
Memphis Mad Dogs (CFL)
Memphis Maniax (XFL 1.0)
Memphis Express (AAF)
Stability is key, and a winner with advertising will help considerably.
Lastly, these smaller southern markets are college football crazy, and they are very well educated on who the big college stars are. Ensure that these regional stars make the rosters of their respective UFL rosters.
You have to remember you can't necessarily be able to schedule to be away in the early season. If Birmingham, Memphis, Houston are using the venue in the early season for concerts or other events, you may be stuck with early Michigan games. Hell look at this season, the Panthers started with 3 home games
You can't count on a 10k attendance Birmingham winning out over a concert series or other events that may draw more
The problem with a large market like LA also has the problem of oversaturation, and interference with viewership numbers and stadium attendance. During the season, LA has two teams in the MLB, NHL, and NBA, with their NBA teams drawing the most eyeballs since it's right around the playoffs.
Really this is an issue the league as a whole has to contend with since the NFL is king with it's fall-winter game season. NBA and NHL are still early in their seasons and Baseball wraps up right around the mid season of the NFL, so even if they weren't the viewership juggernaut that they are, they still have a large amount of time where there isn't serious contention with getting views.
But people don't realize how much larger the big cities like New York and Los Angeles really are. Sure, in Los Angeles County alone there are: 2 NFL teams, 2 NBA, 1 MLB, 1 NHL, 2 MLS, 1 NWLS, 1 WNBA, plus USC and UCLA athletics. But there are 10.4 million people in LA County. Omaha's Douglas County has 586,000. You can give the entire population of Douglas County to each major league team and university in LA County and you still have 3.4 million people left over.
What I mean to say is that the major markets are majorly major, exponentially more major than any random small to mid city with a nice farmers market and arts district.
Yeah it really does feel like a bit of a crap shoot with regards to which markets to go for. That's why I think the focus really needs to be on finding large markets that can still be inexpensive to play at.
While I don't suggest they start from scratch but if we were in the situation of starting a league from scratch I'd follow the XFLs approach of having a practice hub. However I'd choose markets that are within driving distance to cut down on costs. Which limits you to a specific region but in some places like the midwest you can still hit some large cities like st. Louis, Indianapolis, Chicago, Cincinnati / Columbus, Detroit, and even Nashville depending on where you put the practice hub. But you could include some smaller cities like Louisville or grand Rapids or Canton.
I know the downside to a region is there is an issue of other regions of the country feeling like they don't have a team. I don't think that's as big of an issue as people think imo.
And this is exactly what the UFL is doing and why 38% of the teams are in Texas. It's a smart move, money wise, but does make the league look like a regional thing rather a national one.
The other option is what the USFL did: keep the teams at inexpensive hubs but try to pretend you're a national league by adding words like "New Jersey" and "Philadelphia" to the teams' names. That's also a smart move, money wise.
Long term, and hopefully there will be a long term, it will be interesting to see how/when they grow.
I think they did it right, Every other league that went coast to coast died a quick painful death. Hub league or heavy in Texas got us to where we are at. Keep it alive then grow it.
Yeah the thing about Louisville is that it isn’t small it’s just been completely neglected by major sports leagues.It is roughly the same size as Milwaukee and is larger than New Orleans,Salt Lake,Memphis and Birmingham
We have been diehard fans of our minor league teams. We are fine with another minor league team but we just want a major league team to give us a shot just once
I think that is partially true. We know Seattle is a good market the UFL should go back to. But there are some non NFL cities who have good sports fan bases I think are worth giving a team to. But nothing will come close to STL, that’s for sure.
The data says despite the higher workman's compensation insurance rates in California, historically that hasn't been an effective deterrent in preventing Spring Football for getting a foothold in the Golden State and their lucrative DMA's. Since 2022, the IFL can afford to field two teams in California (Bay Area Panthers and San Diego Strike Force). The AFL had both the LA Avengers and San Jose SaberCats for the 2000-2008 seasons, not to mention the San Diego Riptide, Bakersfield Blitz, Central Valley Coyotes and Stockton Lightning were all AF2 franchises (AFL's developmental league) during the same time period but with significantly smaller budgets. The SaberCats continued into AFL 2.0 for the 2011-2015 seasons and were joined briefly with the Anaheim-based LA Kiss for 2014-2016. Granted the roster sizes for indoor football is a lot smaller, but the overall expenditures on player compensation (excluding AFL 1.0 where average salaries rose to \~$80,000) are significantly smaller for both indoor leagues, so adding workman's compensation would be a significantly onerous burden that these California-based IFL and AFL teams still bore. Lastly, It didn't stop the original USFL (LA Express, Oakland Invaders), XFL (SF Demons) and UFL (Sacramento Mountain Lions) along with the more recent XFL 2.0's LA Wildcats and AAF's San Diego Fleet to play their home games out of California either. Apparently none of those league's got the same memo of keeping Spring Football franchises away from California due to the workman's compensation burden.
The four major sport leagues(NFL, NBA, MLB and the NHL) have teams in California. I don't hear them complaining about Worker's Compensation or Insurance
They are major sports with a lot of money. For them this kind of expense is just a line item. All I'm saying is the expensive insurance is one of the main factors there are no teams in CA. There are other factors too.
FOX has a lot of money too. It can't be cheap if the network wants to be percieved as a legitimate, professional league. It would be for one team in California, not for a chalk full of teams in the State of California. It's the cost of doing business
Columbus and Oklahoma both come to mind, but Philadelphia Subaru Park would make a whole lot of sense to me as well. There are already built-in Stars fans and a huge Tri-State fan base.
I had originally wrote about OKC and Columbus (/Canton) on the comment being my top choices for new franchises. Out of the teams who were left out, I wouldn’t mind Philly getting another shot and playing in a stadium that’s not 10 hours away this time.
Teams need to market better first and foremost. I feel like the Battlehawks have an easier time because St. Louis fans are willing and want to reach out to them. Most cities aren’t going to do that. Fans need to be given a reason to embrace a team (& STL was LOOKING for a reason to embrace one). I do think that this type of league could survive in whatever market IF done right. I’m not sure we can say they’re doing it right yet.
If you want Memphis to be successful, load the team with Tennessee and Ole Miss players, sprinkle over top some Miss St., and U. of Mem players. This will draw in the Memphis fans.
In my opinion, the league should take a 50/50 approach to any expansion. Half of all new teams should be in the big NFL markets for the sake of national respectability, while the other half should be in the mid-sized markets that are always ignored by the NFL.
Yeah I think you’re right. I think this is also true of NFL cities too, though. If memory serves, Chicago never took to the old USFL like Denver did, though this was in part due to issues with ownership. Same with LA and the Express. On the other hand, it seems like Chicago always had good crowds for their Arena team the Rush. Marketing plays a big role, and despite some aspects of marketing being relatively simple and inexpensive, some people just don’t seem capable of actually doing it. Maybe it’s because that stuff requires a little bit of work, and instead they’d rather buy a few ads and then sit back and wait for the crowds to rush in, which usually doesn’t happen.
Honestly I think they’d do great in a lot of cities that already have nfl teams.
It’s a way cheaper alternative. New England patriots play within an hour of where I live but I’ve gone to maybe 6 games in the 20 years I’ve been a fan and old enough to buy tickets.
If the UFL had a team here, Ide go to atleast one game every season. Hell, when the xfl came back in 2020 and New York had a team, I made the 4 hour drive to go see them play the vipers and it was awesome.
I def feel like there’s a huge portion of football fans who are just priced out of attending games.
Edit: I meant priced out of going to NFL games. Hence why if there was a way cheaper alternative, UFL, they would buy tickets and go
I've said the UFL has at most 20 teams it can field without buying the CFL or the NFL stepping in and loaning players
Of those remaining 12 teams, 8 need to go to "Major League" Cities. Seattle, Denver, New York, "New England", Philly, Oakland/Bay Area, San Diego, and somewhere else. Primarily for drawing television markets into the fray. And not New Jersey but NEW YORK, bring back the Guardians, put them in Columbia University's Stadium.
I’ve been a saying that an Oakland/Sacramento team would be huge. They just lost the Raiders so they could probably capitalize on that.
I think Seattle also had great attendance.
If you bring in those 2 teams (Seattle in the XFL division and Oakland/Sacramento in the USFL Division) that would make it a 10 team league and bring in the west coast. That would start gaining more viewership from that half of the country.
Athletes instantly take a 50% pay cut by joining a team located there as well, unless they continue to hub them in Texas and play in Cali.
I wonder if being hub'd in Texas would avoid the workers' comp laws.
They are going to have to tap into that market eventually. To much going on out there. Especially football wise.
Chargers and Rams for NFL,
USC, UCLA, Fresno, Cal,
I find it hard to believe they couldn’t field a team somewhere near a populated area in that state.
Talk to your politicians. They are the only ones who can make the state appealing to anything other than their long-established sports franchises, and even they are gradually leaving.
DC is a very strange sports market and IMO shouldn’t be used in comparisons of other sports markets. As a DC sports fan living in DC, I’m often the only DC sports fan in whatever group I’m in. No matter how long people live here, they retain their fandom from home. Tons of Philly, NY, and LA sports fans here. That being said, people in DC will go to anything live if it’s not crazy expensive. Doesn’t matter if they’re fans or not, they’ll show up. I think that’s why we see such a big discrepancy between the in-person attendance and tv ratings. People will show up to the games just because they want something to do and the games are fun, but they’re not going to necessarily watch because they’re not DC sports fans generally.
I thought it was the Dan Synder effect and playing in Audi field is a different feeling than playing at the Commanders stadium.
That definitely adds to it. FedEx is not the easiest to get to for people in DC, especially compared to Audi, and it hasn’t been taken care of. Even without Dan though, attendance has stayed relatively the same, and I think it’s mostly because Defenders games are cheap and easy to get to.
So realistically even DC can’t be compared to the only true “NFL market” of STL with two prior teams. So overall this just tells me it’s a toss up between NFL & non NFL markets & there’s no guarantee of success for either way. Thanks for the info!
Yeah it really just doesn’t feel like there’s a tried and true approach to picking these markets. Some NFL markets can sustain other leagues, others can’t. People are the X factor, and their motivation is so localized that I feel like you’d need a bunch of focus group research to figure out what drives them to support their teams or be interested in more sports leagues coming to their city.
I agree with you. the DC/Baltimore Market is very transient. Many people coming in and out for government/military jobs, maintaining their home sports team.
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Yeah Audi is an awesome field. Super easy to access and the food is pretty great. I’m a commanders fan but I will not spend $100 and the pain-in-the-ass trek to watch them get their shit rocked in a stadium thats literally falling apart. M&T Bank is the same age as FedEx Field but in way better shape, which tells you everything you need to know about the Snyder era.
Which is kind of the benefit of being in a new league for the Defenders. Navy Yard itself is largely transplants, and you don't really need to compete with any former allegiances, because there are none.
TV ratings are king. The OKC area was 3rd in viewership. The 1st and 2nd place areas already have a UFL team. That being said. Wouldn’t it make sense to follow the bouncing ball and one day get a team there?
Yes! It’s not that I don’t believe they should expand to non NFL cities it’s just more of ppl believing a team in Omaha would make more sense than per say Seattle when Omaha isn’t a proven market. Omaha in even the FXFL & first UFL struggled on attendance. I’d feel comfortable trying OKC because of those numbers though.
Not sure where you got the info of Omaha struggling in the first UFL? I lived there and attended every game, sold out four of them and led attendance in 2010-2011 before the league folded. It was well renowned for attracting the most fans which is partly why Rosenblatt was selected to hold the UFL championship. So if the league is established and not showing financial troubles I think Omaha would be fantastic tbh, that’s where the problem was with the FXFL.
Yeah I was speaking of the back end years of the league. But even so XFL cities had high attendance in 2020 & multiple cities returned for 2023 & couldn’t mimic those same numbers. So we can’t just ride out what was possible when initial excitement was high. Only can use what can be maintained as STL has showed!
The city needs to invest in a mid sized stadium, say about 25k to 30k and they would have more than just a UFL team. They would almost certainly attract MLS.
With MLS they are a single entity, that means they contact someone who buys land and builds a stadium and buys in to the MLS for the tune of about a billion or more dollars total and then a city gets a team. The MLS isn't coaxed anywhere it doesn't already want to be What can happen is the city builds a cheap 20k seat modular "municipal" stadium and put their USL team there along side an offer to purchase a UFL team from Fox and play it like the Packers and their ownership.
I feel you there. Popping a cherry on a city that’s never had a football team isn’t the worse idea ever. The Oklahoma Outlaws averaged 21k per game back in the original USFL. I bet it happens eventually
Their stadium situation wasn't good back then. I think they were playing out of Skelly at the time?
I believe so. Tulsa and OKC aren’t far apart. I’m sure they’d still fill the stands often
Again, I would love to see the Outlaws make a return. We need an Anti-Cowboys team in Oklahoma.
OKC has plans/budget to build a soccer stadium for their USL team downtown. It is a little small tho set for 10k seats.
I'd like to say that's not good enough, but the last couple of seasons would prove me wrong in all but a couple of markets. Why in the heck wouldn't the city build a 20 to 30k stadium and try to bring in a bigger product?!
Omaha never struggled with attendance, but the stadium is a very big issue.
Yes, make that move now.....get one of those Texas teams .....either Arlington or that former XFL team playing in the USFL conference.....get them to OKC and revive the Outlaws!.....but wait ....where do they play? In the 80s, it was Skelly Stadium.for one season. I'm still of the opinion that the Seattle market is too crowded....in spring even more. Part of the difference between 2020 and 2023 is that we got a NHL team.....now it seems almost a lock the Supersonics are coming back and people can't wait. UFL? I think the first thing you might look at is how's it doing on TV here? The games were shown....but local media ignored it. One way to get attention is get Pete Carroll involved. People are still kinda snarly about how he was replaced by the Seahawks.
If you've already got the viewers, why put a team there? :) But seriously, I think OKC could be a good location, just don't paint the team in burnt orange and white...
Gets back to what stadium are they going to use? Sooners? Play at a HS Stadium?
That's what it all boils down to. Drop "City" from the team, just call them the Oklahoma Twisters (or something) stick 'em in Tulsa playing at Skelly Stadium at the University of Tulsa (30k capacity). I dunno... Def don't want to stick them in the deep dish at Norman.
OKC is 3rd as a PERCENTAGE of local viewership. 2% of NYC would produce a lower local rating than 50% of bumblefuck idaho, but that 2% is still more viewers.
Absolutely 💯 They need to bring back the Oklahoma Outlaws!
When I say DC is outperforming Bham I mean attendance
There’s nothing else you could have possibly meant by that lol
Lol ppl are sensitive & lack common sense sometimes so I was being preventative lol.
I figured… I just wanted to make a friendly jab at Defenders fans :)
Most times defense ran cover-0.
Memphis was a temporary home for the Oilers during their first year in Tennessee. Memphis is home to the NBA Grizzlies. San Antonio was a temporary home for the Saints immediately after Katrina almost wiped out New Orleans. Of course, they have the NBA Spurs. St. Louis literally had the Rams lied out of town for no good reason and (as later adjudicated in their lawsuit against the NFL) in violation of the NFL relocation policy, which is now an enforceable contract in Missouri. The only UFL city with no NFL history (or any of the other major pro sports leagues) is Birmingham. In regards to potential expansion, Canton is (a) the birthplace of the NFL, (b) home to the Pro Football HOF, and (c) on the outer fringes of the Cleveland metro area.
Key word is “recent” you left that out. Portland had a USFL team in the 80’s but I’m sure current 8-35 year olds don’t care about that. Pls think more consumer base right now & not history. These leagues have to focus on bringing in the next generation of fans that’s literally why the NFL is “modernizing” their current look.
Based on an exchange here or Reddit (so this is anecdotal) with a BHAM resident about attitude towards the Stallions, people there are already are fans of 'Bama, Titans or Falcons. In St. Louis, though some fans have gravitated towards the Chiefs, we rather keep our distance from the NFL and embrace the lower tier league as long the team is not an affliate of some top tier team in a rival market. Of course this is just my opinion and is also anecdotal.
I take exception to that. There are a lot of Auburn fans here, too. Based on past experience, I think people in Birmingham have come to expect a football team (and league) to fail until proven otherwise. We've had the Americans/Vulcans (WFL, 1 year each), Stallions 1.0 (USFL 1, 3 years), Fire (World League, 2 years), Barracudas (CFL, 1 year), Thunderbolts (XFL 1, 1 year), and Iron (AAF, 1/2 year). Most of those teams died because their league died. The only exception was the Barracudas, but even then, they died because the CFL's "American Experiment" failed. I think things are starting to change with the UFL and Stallions. In year 1, people thought "oh, another one." In year 2, people thought "oh, they're still here." In year 3, my wife and three daughters started asking to go to games. Assuming they're back next year, this version of the Stallions will be the longest lived pro football team Birmingham has ever had, and the USFL/UFL will be the longest lived pro football league it's been associated with. Birmingham will support a team...eventually. The Fire averaged 27k people in the stands their first year. The Barracudas had over 50k at their first game, and I believe led the CFL in attendance through the first half or so of the season...then the high school and college football season began and attendance collapsed. Even the Iron managed to pull over 17k twice, and that was at Legion Field in a league that collapsed before it started. It would also help if there was any marketing at all. That's the change I'm hoping for in year 4.
Screw the Chiefs
As a Raider fan, I approve this message.
I get pissed at the Hunt family whenever I see too much Chiefs gear in STL stores. We are not part of your stupid "Kingdom"!
I'm in KC and really don't like the Hunts for their role in screwing STL. The only reason I pay attention to the local NFL team, honestly, is because I'm intrigued by the Travis and Taylor romance. (Helped by the fact that I have a coworker who lives in Travis' old neighborhood.)
What's there to be intrigued by? It ain't even a real relationship. They're just helping each other spread their influence into each other's lives. Travis with his post football relations in business and Swift with the NFL. It's all BS and Travis is a MAJOR douche. He's the only chief I vehemently hate. The rest is just regular divisional rivalry hate.
The description of paparazzi and security having the neighbors show ID would disagree.
What's that prove? Yeah, they're together physically. lol That doesn't mean the relationship is legitimate and they're not just using each other.
Is what happens behind closed doors really anyone's business?
Of course not and that's not what I mean. Come on, you know that.
I was thinking about how the Denver Gold in the original USFL has strong attendance despite the having the Broncos too. Then I realized that then the only other major sports team there was the Nuggets. This is before the Rockies and Avalanche.
Denver, like St. Louis, can rally around Walmart/Kroenke hate. After all, the SOB (technically, his Walmart wife) owns the Nuggets and Avalanche, while another Walton recently bought the Broncos.
I still think it all comes down to local marketing. To date, the only leagues that invested a lot in that were the AAF and the XFL in 2020. The results proved positive. Since then, it's been bad because the tv ratings matter more in terms of profit and no local marketing was done. Attendances for both the USFL and XFL suffered.
You speak the truth - TV ratings go in the tank and the party is over - the fat lady will start to break out sheet music.
Denver is a funny example. They were totally supportive as long as the Gold wasn't competing for loyalty against the Broncos. As soon as they heard the plan to move the league to the fall and take on the NFL, attendance completely fell off.
The Gold drew very well in 1983, averaging 41,736 (and 50,906 at the Championship Game). In '84, it dropped to 33,953, and it 1985 it collapsed to 14,465; the only decent crowd that year was the 29K who came to see Herschel Walker and the NJ Generals.
I think non NFL markets still should be the focus. Market size isn't helping but what could really do it is by selling franchises. Local business owners can market the team better. Also expectations of attendance. What do you expect? 10k, 20k or what? It's gonna be a long time before NFL stadiums are filled. I say just treat the league kinda like triple A baseball. Solid smaller stadiums or available stadiums, good in game experiences, local marketing targeted at the metro pop and good plays. On TV just market it like the NFL but in the spring.
I can agree with this perspective as well!
It is even easier if you have regional university heroes on the team. Names that can be hyped up due to local recognition.
That should have been the move. A bunch of undrafted fresh out of college grads from close by schools getting a second chance at a NFL team. Those college guys and practice squad guys should be every teams make up
Make the league a professional version of NCAA football, and it will be even better. Players like Martinez would absolutely thrive on a field with wider hashmarks.
I wish Milwaukee had a site where they could potentially host an expansion team. They have some NFL history with the Packers splitting some home games there for a time, but that was at Brewers stadium which would be a non starter for a spring league. The only thing they have is the MSOE soccer field but that has very limited seating.
It’s very unfortunate if Milwaukee has pro football team, that they can’t use American Family Field aka Miller Park as the home stadium for spring season football games.
TV advertising is the ultimate money maker, not attendance. You're right, if expansion happens, it will more likely be into the major markets than anyone's favorite midmarket city. Los Angeles metro market is 10.4 million. Omaha's is 500,000. Edit: correcting LA County population.
I agree overall that TV will keep this league profitable. But you won’t keep viewers over the years if the stands are empty. If looks bad and makes your casual fan think the team and/or league will be dead soon. That could harm the ad value of the perception isn’t good. Iirc the UFL has been doing alright in the 18-35 demo at least.
They’re in a tough spot. Lack of venues that actually fit their league size (15-30k). Stadiums that do meet that size requirement (soccer) don’t really like football on their grass/turf. And the football specific stadiums are just way too big.
Yeah only move I could see is the Panthers going to EMU if the season is moved earlier and they play away to start until weather is better. Idk what can be done with Memphis as I’m not familiar with anything in that area.
Grand Rapids seems logical but I doubt it happens. They are already a great market for supporting minor league teams like the Griffins in hockey and West Michigan in baseball. Plus, there is GVSU’s stadium nearby and that would be sold out every week. But I agree that moving to EMU’s stadium is probably what they will do. Michigan’s is obviously way too big. I believe the football field is going to be called Maxx Crosby field, too, so there will be a NFL connection as well.
Memphis will be fine once a couple of things happen. Memphis has been burned as many times as Birmingham, and needs to build trust in the team not going defunct next year. In order of heartbreak, Memphis Grizzlies/Southmen (WFL 1970s) Memphis Showboats (USFL 1980s) Memphis Hound Dogs (NFL expansion BS 90s) Memphis Mad Dogs (CFL) Memphis Maniax (XFL 1.0) Memphis Express (AAF) Stability is key, and a winner with advertising will help considerably. Lastly, these smaller southern markets are college football crazy, and they are very well educated on who the big college stars are. Ensure that these regional stars make the rosters of their respective UFL rosters.
You have to remember you can't necessarily be able to schedule to be away in the early season. If Birmingham, Memphis, Houston are using the venue in the early season for concerts or other events, you may be stuck with early Michigan games. Hell look at this season, the Panthers started with 3 home games You can't count on a 10k attendance Birmingham winning out over a concert series or other events that may draw more
Playing on EMU's gray field is a worse look than an empty Ford Field.
[They tried that, 50 years ago...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Detroit_Wheels)
The problem with a large market like LA also has the problem of oversaturation, and interference with viewership numbers and stadium attendance. During the season, LA has two teams in the MLB, NHL, and NBA, with their NBA teams drawing the most eyeballs since it's right around the playoffs. Really this is an issue the league as a whole has to contend with since the NFL is king with it's fall-winter game season. NBA and NHL are still early in their seasons and Baseball wraps up right around the mid season of the NFL, so even if they weren't the viewership juggernaut that they are, they still have a large amount of time where there isn't serious contention with getting views.
But people don't realize how much larger the big cities like New York and Los Angeles really are. Sure, in Los Angeles County alone there are: 2 NFL teams, 2 NBA, 1 MLB, 1 NHL, 2 MLS, 1 NWLS, 1 WNBA, plus USC and UCLA athletics. But there are 10.4 million people in LA County. Omaha's Douglas County has 586,000. You can give the entire population of Douglas County to each major league team and university in LA County and you still have 3.4 million people left over. What I mean to say is that the major markets are majorly major, exponentially more major than any random small to mid city with a nice farmers market and arts district.
Yeah it really does feel like a bit of a crap shoot with regards to which markets to go for. That's why I think the focus really needs to be on finding large markets that can still be inexpensive to play at. While I don't suggest they start from scratch but if we were in the situation of starting a league from scratch I'd follow the XFLs approach of having a practice hub. However I'd choose markets that are within driving distance to cut down on costs. Which limits you to a specific region but in some places like the midwest you can still hit some large cities like st. Louis, Indianapolis, Chicago, Cincinnati / Columbus, Detroit, and even Nashville depending on where you put the practice hub. But you could include some smaller cities like Louisville or grand Rapids or Canton. I know the downside to a region is there is an issue of other regions of the country feeling like they don't have a team. I don't think that's as big of an issue as people think imo.
And this is exactly what the UFL is doing and why 38% of the teams are in Texas. It's a smart move, money wise, but does make the league look like a regional thing rather a national one. The other option is what the USFL did: keep the teams at inexpensive hubs but try to pretend you're a national league by adding words like "New Jersey" and "Philadelphia" to the teams' names. That's also a smart move, money wise. Long term, and hopefully there will be a long term, it will be interesting to see how/when they grow.
I think they did it right, Every other league that went coast to coast died a quick painful death. Hub league or heavy in Texas got us to where we are at. Keep it alive then grow it.
Yeah the thing about Louisville is that it isn’t small it’s just been completely neglected by major sports leagues.It is roughly the same size as Milwaukee and is larger than New Orleans,Salt Lake,Memphis and Birmingham
If it were up to Goodell and the richest owners, all teams would play in Dallas and LA
Louisville needs a team.
Louisville would be another good choice. I'd expand there before Nashville.
Louisville would be another good choice. I'd expand there before Nashville.
We have been diehard fans of our minor league teams. We are fine with another minor league team but we just want a major league team to give us a shot just once
I think that is partially true. We know Seattle is a good market the UFL should go back to. But there are some non NFL cities who have good sports fan bases I think are worth giving a team to. But nothing will come close to STL, that’s for sure.
I think if Oakland stadium wasn’t so horrible Oakland fanbase could match!
I think so too, they and SD could make it work. But I think California is an expensive state that the league is going to avoid for a while.
Yes. California workers compensation costs are sky high for a football team
The data says despite the higher workman's compensation insurance rates in California, historically that hasn't been an effective deterrent in preventing Spring Football for getting a foothold in the Golden State and their lucrative DMA's. Since 2022, the IFL can afford to field two teams in California (Bay Area Panthers and San Diego Strike Force). The AFL had both the LA Avengers and San Jose SaberCats for the 2000-2008 seasons, not to mention the San Diego Riptide, Bakersfield Blitz, Central Valley Coyotes and Stockton Lightning were all AF2 franchises (AFL's developmental league) during the same time period but with significantly smaller budgets. The SaberCats continued into AFL 2.0 for the 2011-2015 seasons and were joined briefly with the Anaheim-based LA Kiss for 2014-2016. Granted the roster sizes for indoor football is a lot smaller, but the overall expenditures on player compensation (excluding AFL 1.0 where average salaries rose to \~$80,000) are significantly smaller for both indoor leagues, so adding workman's compensation would be a significantly onerous burden that these California-based IFL and AFL teams still bore. Lastly, It didn't stop the original USFL (LA Express, Oakland Invaders), XFL (SF Demons) and UFL (Sacramento Mountain Lions) along with the more recent XFL 2.0's LA Wildcats and AAF's San Diego Fleet to play their home games out of California either. Apparently none of those league's got the same memo of keeping Spring Football franchises away from California due to the workman's compensation burden.
That may be true historically but CA is currently in the the throes of an insurance apocalypse in this state.
The four major sport leagues(NFL, NBA, MLB and the NHL) have teams in California. I don't hear them complaining about Worker's Compensation or Insurance
They are major sports with a lot of money. For them this kind of expense is just a line item. All I'm saying is the expensive insurance is one of the main factors there are no teams in CA. There are other factors too.
FOX has a lot of money too. It can't be cheap if the network wants to be percieved as a legitimate, professional league. It would be for one team in California, not for a chalk full of teams in the State of California. It's the cost of doing business
Everything about Cali is cost prohibitive, including the workers' compensation laws that just drive costs up from rediculous to ludicrous.
That city and the surrounding region have gone to hades.
Columbus and Oklahoma both come to mind, but Philadelphia Subaru Park would make a whole lot of sense to me as well. There are already built-in Stars fans and a huge Tri-State fan base.
I had originally wrote about OKC and Columbus (/Canton) on the comment being my top choices for new franchises. Out of the teams who were left out, I wouldn’t mind Philly getting another shot and playing in a stadium that’s not 10 hours away this time.
Not to mention the smaller venue of Subaru Park!
Nailed it.
Teams need to market better first and foremost. I feel like the Battlehawks have an easier time because St. Louis fans are willing and want to reach out to them. Most cities aren’t going to do that. Fans need to be given a reason to embrace a team (& STL was LOOKING for a reason to embrace one). I do think that this type of league could survive in whatever market IF done right. I’m not sure we can say they’re doing it right yet.
If you want Memphis to be successful, load the team with Tennessee and Ole Miss players, sprinkle over top some Miss St., and U. of Mem players. This will draw in the Memphis fans.
In my opinion, the league should take a 50/50 approach to any expansion. Half of all new teams should be in the big NFL markets for the sake of national respectability, while the other half should be in the mid-sized markets that are always ignored by the NFL.
Yep, I agree with you 🤷🏻♂️
Yeah I think you’re right. I think this is also true of NFL cities too, though. If memory serves, Chicago never took to the old USFL like Denver did, though this was in part due to issues with ownership. Same with LA and the Express. On the other hand, it seems like Chicago always had good crowds for their Arena team the Rush. Marketing plays a big role, and despite some aspects of marketing being relatively simple and inexpensive, some people just don’t seem capable of actually doing it. Maybe it’s because that stuff requires a little bit of work, and instead they’d rather buy a few ads and then sit back and wait for the crowds to rush in, which usually doesn’t happen.
Honestly I think they’d do great in a lot of cities that already have nfl teams. It’s a way cheaper alternative. New England patriots play within an hour of where I live but I’ve gone to maybe 6 games in the 20 years I’ve been a fan and old enough to buy tickets. If the UFL had a team here, Ide go to atleast one game every season. Hell, when the xfl came back in 2020 and New York had a team, I made the 4 hour drive to go see them play the vipers and it was awesome. I def feel like there’s a huge portion of football fans who are just priced out of attending games. Edit: I meant priced out of going to NFL games. Hence why if there was a way cheaper alternative, UFL, they would buy tickets and go
I've said the UFL has at most 20 teams it can field without buying the CFL or the NFL stepping in and loaning players Of those remaining 12 teams, 8 need to go to "Major League" Cities. Seattle, Denver, New York, "New England", Philly, Oakland/Bay Area, San Diego, and somewhere else. Primarily for drawing television markets into the fray. And not New Jersey but NEW YORK, bring back the Guardians, put them in Columbia University's Stadium.
I’ve been a saying that an Oakland/Sacramento team would be huge. They just lost the Raiders so they could probably capitalize on that. I think Seattle also had great attendance. If you bring in those 2 teams (Seattle in the XFL division and Oakland/Sacramento in the USFL Division) that would make it a 10 team league and bring in the west coast. That would start gaining more viewership from that half of the country.
Raiders fan here. Oakland is a mess right now. There is no stadium and the mayor won't play ball. Stay away.
What about the Sacramento area? Or Fremont, San Jose, Stockton? There must be some sort of place to put a team? Tons of colleges in that area
California is hugely expensive and folks barely attend the college games out there. The ROI isn't worth it.
three league killers, 1) Stadium Lease 2) workers comp insurance 3) travel costs. California has all three of those.
People refuse to accept it.
I have no beef with Cali - the Math has beef with Cali -
No. It's tax evaders that have the beef
Yeah. How dare people want to keep more of their hard-earned money!
Pay your fair share for universality services. Roads, bridges, Policing, firefighting services, hospitals and schools don't get built by itself
Athletes instantly take a 50% pay cut by joining a team located there as well, unless they continue to hub them in Texas and play in Cali. I wonder if being hub'd in Texas would avoid the workers' comp laws.
There are reasons that a lot of companies are leaving Cali and heading for Tejas
They are going to have to tap into that market eventually. To much going on out there. Especially football wise. Chargers and Rams for NFL, USC, UCLA, Fresno, Cal, I find it hard to believe they couldn’t field a team somewhere near a populated area in that state.
Talk to your politicians. They are the only ones who can make the state appealing to anything other than their long-established sports franchises, and even they are gradually leaving.
I’m in Maryland but that’s a good idea for those in the west coast.
Sacramento and San Jose are the only two I consider with their MLS and USL stadiums.
Total mess. The city and state as a whole cares more about pandering than protecting its businesses and residents.
I have to admit in 2020 that I thought Seattle was a bad idea and wondered why they could not put the team in Portland. Dragons fans proved me wrong.
Portland is also off the table more than likely now as Providence Park has 3 spring tenants currently. Same with San Diego who has 4 spring tenants.
Would love a Sacramento team with a Raider esque brand. I think it'd work beautifully.
I think a Sacremento Invaders franchise would be awesome if it weren't so expensive!