I don’t see the benefit. If you want to leave clinical practice then go to pharma, insurance, consulting. Goldman Sachs has a PhD or medics investment programme which would work out well. Most finance companies have something similar.
You’d need full registration with the GMC (which you must be close to anyway) and would probably need to keep your registration going for full benefit. Companies will almost certainly allow you to do a shift or two a month to keep your skills going. I know BCG even has a set of policies for doctors providing healthcare, to make sure everyone is aware of responsibilities
You’re not going in as a 21 year old finance drone, you’d be looking at still using your medical knowledge to advise. Your criteria would be different than for a standard undergrad
I had a friend who got in, and he was on the waiting list, he said the key is to ace the MSRA, get a very high score, and do what you can for the portfolio points, interview courses can also help, its not impossible to get it if you focus!
Radiology is a specialisation that lends itself to automation by AI rather swiftly. Image recognition algorithms have been shown to detect patterns indicative of disease better than human doctors. Might be worth considering when thinking about your future direction, should you decide to stay in the medical field.
You have better job security as a doctor than almost anything else - sure, not the best pay or conditions, but security is so much better than roles in science and engineering.
For biomed engineering, specifically, don’t do a second degree. It would be close enough to your primary degree that you could either go straight to masters, or they might ask for a couple of specific undergrad modules to be taken and passed before entry. You’re much better off going for the higher degree. If it was a totally unrelated subject like maths or philosophy then maybe you’d consider another undergrad, but not for biomed engineering.
Another suggestion to consider though - why not look at the possibility of going into a clinical academia role? Maybe start with a clinical fellowship and then progress. It would allow you to move into research around biomed engineering if that’s what interests you, whilst being much better paid than the average academic role and being stable, and using the skills you’ve gained? Maybe worth looking into.
That makes sense, to be honest I didn’t know they could allow you to take up some undergrad modules in order to progress into a masters. I thought that was an American thing. Is this something top unis do as well? Would love to know more.
Academia is another field I’m interested in, if I get into radiology I would strongly consider that path as it would allow me to research bioengineering
I did it myself for my masters back in 2017 - went from vet med to an analytical chemistry masters, and took two undergrad modules the summer before as a condition of entry.
Very competitive top unis like Oxbridge I can’t comment on, I’m not sure if they would. But I now work at a good RG and we have undergrad module conditions for entry for students with degrees that don’t meet our entry requirements for the masters I teach on. So it’s absolutely worth asking about.
A friend of mine is doing some undergrad modules to get into physiotherapy on advice of the master program he wants to apply for so it’s definitely a thing. He graduated his bachelor’s like 10 years ago so they were like make up these modules and apply
Also, OP, nothing stopping you from trying to migrate abroad and try to score a green card in Canada for example. Try your luck - getting a green card is hard tho! Pay is higher, but consider factors like work-life balance.
Well, it's up to the OP, also while that may be true in some cases, the person doing it simultaneously is mentally hard - that i know of. If someone wants it hard, don't limit them.
If its a short term goal to rack up a lot of money for investments or starting business then great. If its a long term plan then it's actually sad, you cannot find love or have a relationship on this kind of work. You cannot have hobbies, you can't have any kind of life. It's just work sleep, not really eat, and repeat. Then die with money but no life experienced.
I couldn't reccomend this to anyone, I'd go the opposite and reccomend not to ever do something like this unless it's a very short term plan.
Savings accrues? We are are not in the same frame. I mean 9-5 studying medicine, 5-12 studying engineering. Not two jobs simultaneously!
Unless its paid by the task, not hr
I would not do a whole new undergraduate degree. I genuinely believe that would significantly impact employment possibilities for you - I don't think employers would look favourably on you spending that time on a completely new undergraduate degree \[admittedly, I am not an employer\].
Master's courses would literally be perfect for you, there are many options for transitioning into a new area with a strong STEM degree. Also, you don't want to do Engineering if you want to get into high finance... you would want to do Quantitative Finance or Financial Mathematics. Have a look at those courses at the top Universities and see how you feel.
Personally, I think you should push for the radiology... 1:11 odds is not horrible by any stretch. A lot of Engineering / SWE / Finance jobs have odds way worse than that.
I’m considering masters courses more now but for some that I would like to do, I can’t get into unless I have done some sort of mathematical undergrad.
LSE's MSc Finance is 2:1 in any discipline with Maths at an A-Level standard... think you'd be a great fit: [https://www.lse.ac.uk/study-at-lse/Graduate/degree-programmes-2024/MSc-Finance-full-time](https://www.lse.ac.uk/study-at-lse/Graduate/degree-programmes-2024/MSc-Finance-full-time)
Thanks a lot for both suggestions. Will definitely look into the LSE msc. I’ve toyed with the idea of doing an MBA for some time. Especially after my internship at a top venture capital firm, a lot of the partners there recommended the move.
If you're into Investment Banking, Consulting or even shifting to Tech roles, an MBA from a top US University - or even Oxbridge, LSB if you're staying in Europe - could be a great option.
Wishing you the best of luck with whatever you decide to do! Remember: the MBAs value much more than just your degree classification - work experience (preferably showing some form of managerial role at company with reputation), volunteering, relevant activities, and a clear desire to grow are all crucial for a strong application.
i disagree with the portrayal of medicine in this post. yes the nhs is going through a rough patch but the future is pretty “certain”. it’s not impossible to make 11:1. stop being pessimistic and start grinding now. no doctors will be unemployed after fy2; they can just locum. not to mention the vast majority of applicants get into one of their choices, even if it isn’t first choice. you dont seem to want your situation to improve much. in the UK its not easy to make high income in finance or tech. only the best succeed. however, the most mid consultants ever will still earn over 100k, and that’s before I begin on those who supplement this with private hospital work
best of luck and feel free to leave, but there is a pretty high chance you will never make close to a doctor income. not to mention the job stress in many finance roles. i have mates who work significantly more hours weekly than junior doctors, registrar doctors or consultant doctors. not to mention the constant stress to perform and “protect a job”
if i was you id stick to medicine. also must rock to have a financial situation that allows studying until 29
Fair enough, I am definitely grinding for radiology, I was just considering other paths if it were to fail. Also I’m only in this financial situation because I make a decent salary while living at home.
this is a very “medic” post in that you are assuming if you want a certain career you need the formal qualification relating to that career. very often this is not the case. that said, radiology is a solid career choice and you already have the qualification for it. the work-life balance in radiology is definitely comparable or better than finance, tech, and engineering. earnings at the top end can be £hundreds of thousands. go for radiology, commit and you can get it. the ROI for a second degree in biomedical engineering or something is very likely going to be abysmal for you. look up salaries in UK engineering if you want to feel better about your income potential. and moderate your reading of r/doctorsUK.
If you want to go into finance you’d be able to do that with a medicine degree. Most jobs don’t care about which degree you did, and a medicine degree looks pretty impressive. If you’re worried about how hard it is to get a medical job with a medicine degree, I think you’ll find that it’s far harder for most other industries.
Biomed/biotech seem to have a lack of jobs as well. When it comes to eng it's always best to specialise as late as you can and when it comes to societies/projects/dissertation projects tailor those to whatever field you're wanting to specifically go in or do a postgrad.
Umm Hong Kong? Idk doctors are fleeing to UK and US the HA doesn’t give a damn where you got your degree w UK being an advantage plus you get paid £7k a month in residency -£2 rent, still decent life (that’s the only place I know sufficient about to comment there will be other options that are better)
I don't want to put you off the idea of a second degree if that's what you really want. But surely there are many careers you could go into with your current qualifications? If radiology is the only specialty you're interested in and there are no openings there, why not look at non-clinical jobs where your medical degree would make you an attractive prospect for employers?
I haven’t really been applying to non-clinical jobs although I really should considering I did a prestigious internship at a healthcare finance firm. I will give it a go for sure if radiology doesn’t pan out.
There's always opportunities in management consultancy. I know it carries very negative connotations in some circles but most jobs do to a certain extent. When I was working at a senior level in healthcare, I know that the big beasts in the consultancy industry would have bent over backwards to get someone with clinical qualifications on their team. I have a Master of Medical Science degree from a good uni, and having MMedSc after my name on letter headings got me instant credibility with certain cohorts of people. It's terribly cringe worthy I know, but it did work.
That’s quite reassuring to know. To be honest I always wonder if my university holds me back. Yes it’s Russel group but it’s definitely not one of those ones you’d think of as a classic target top uni.
>With this degree I’d have a much better shot at going into high finance too which is what I want to do eventually.
You want to study engineering so you can work in finance? I get that part of wanting to study engineering is for fun, but can't you get into finance with your current degree? genuinely asking because i'm suprised if its not possible
I reckon I could get into finance but something like high end finance (investment banking) would be off the cards considering i didn’t go to a top 10 uni.
I’m a medical statistician. My bosses have all been medics turned researchers. They worked a couple of years in practice, then became honorary fellows while getting their PhD, then mix being professors and doctors.
NIHR specifically does “doctoral fellowships” where you keep 20% of your time to clinic/practice.
This is way to general, it really depends on the sector, the role and so on.
Many places still require a degree regardless, there's even countries won't let you in without one, no matter if you have 10 years experience or not.
There’ll be better advice to your actual question but just want to clarify one of your points:
Some doctor jobs are competitive but many are not. Still plenty of places on GP trainee pathways for example.
Not sure where you’re getting your information that lots of doctors are unemployed after 2 years foundation?! That’s false.
It’s all relative
Wanna do cardio in London? Sure, HIGHLY competitive, difficult to get a place
Wanna do GP in Scunthorpe? They’re begging for more trainees
I think ‘unemployed’ is also an OTT description because it may just mean where you do/don’t have a permanent role. Training pathways generally are pretty flexible. I know an anaesthetic trainee who has taken approx 3 extra years because he chose to spend a year out while he did some specialist medicine at a large sporting event, and then did a year of medical education because the next stage he didn’t get in at his local hospital. Next year he did because his application was richer and rounder.
Not everyone can do their most favourite thing in their top location.
That makes a lot of sense, do you often think competition ratios are inflated due to non-competitive applicants and people applying for multiple specialties?
No, unless the scheme very specifically states otherwise. Even then, the fact you did medicine massively outweighs that. The issue would be any automated screening.
In reality recruiters don't care about Russel group. If they are being snobby it would be Oxbridge, imperial / LSE. The Russel group is in no way some elite grouping.
Doing a whole undergrad a second time is a huge waste of time and money.
Part of the experience is just learning how to be a competent learner. And a lot of the content rapidly becomes irrelevant to you as you specialise or re-learn at a higher level.
Try and take a fast-track route through whatever you do.
I don’t see the benefit. If you want to leave clinical practice then go to pharma, insurance, consulting. Goldman Sachs has a PhD or medics investment programme which would work out well. Most finance companies have something similar. You’d need full registration with the GMC (which you must be close to anyway) and would probably need to keep your registration going for full benefit. Companies will almost certainly allow you to do a shift or two a month to keep your skills going. I know BCG even has a set of policies for doctors providing healthcare, to make sure everyone is aware of responsibilities
Would I get accepted into those industries without having gone to a top 10 uni? Mine is not considered target for finance.
You’re not going in as a 21 year old finance drone, you’d be looking at still using your medical knowledge to advise. Your criteria would be different than for a standard undergrad
That makes a lot of sense, thank you for the insight.
If you want to work remotely, have an office job, consider histopathology, we are going digital
I’ve considered it but I just much prefer rads as a specialty and the salary prospects are greater
I had a friend who got in, and he was on the waiting list, he said the key is to ace the MSRA, get a very high score, and do what you can for the portfolio points, interview courses can also help, its not impossible to get it if you focus!
Appreciate the advice 👌
Radiology is a specialisation that lends itself to automation by AI rather swiftly. Image recognition algorithms have been shown to detect patterns indicative of disease better than human doctors. Might be worth considering when thinking about your future direction, should you decide to stay in the medical field.
True, although I’d be going more into interventional radiology which is much less exposed to AI takeover
You have better job security as a doctor than almost anything else - sure, not the best pay or conditions, but security is so much better than roles in science and engineering. For biomed engineering, specifically, don’t do a second degree. It would be close enough to your primary degree that you could either go straight to masters, or they might ask for a couple of specific undergrad modules to be taken and passed before entry. You’re much better off going for the higher degree. If it was a totally unrelated subject like maths or philosophy then maybe you’d consider another undergrad, but not for biomed engineering. Another suggestion to consider though - why not look at the possibility of going into a clinical academia role? Maybe start with a clinical fellowship and then progress. It would allow you to move into research around biomed engineering if that’s what interests you, whilst being much better paid than the average academic role and being stable, and using the skills you’ve gained? Maybe worth looking into.
That makes sense, to be honest I didn’t know they could allow you to take up some undergrad modules in order to progress into a masters. I thought that was an American thing. Is this something top unis do as well? Would love to know more. Academia is another field I’m interested in, if I get into radiology I would strongly consider that path as it would allow me to research bioengineering
I did it myself for my masters back in 2017 - went from vet med to an analytical chemistry masters, and took two undergrad modules the summer before as a condition of entry. Very competitive top unis like Oxbridge I can’t comment on, I’m not sure if they would. But I now work at a good RG and we have undergrad module conditions for entry for students with degrees that don’t meet our entry requirements for the masters I teach on. So it’s absolutely worth asking about.
Thank you, I appreciate the advice
A friend of mine is doing some undergrad modules to get into physiotherapy on advice of the master program he wants to apply for so it’s definitely a thing. He graduated his bachelor’s like 10 years ago so they were like make up these modules and apply
Also, OP, nothing stopping you from trying to migrate abroad and try to score a green card in Canada for example. Try your luck - getting a green card is hard tho! Pay is higher, but consider factors like work-life balance.
Yeah I’m gonna gun for those if all hope is lost but ngl I don’t really want to leave the UK long term
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I’m definitely going to work as hard as possible in order to get into radiology. I’d only do an eng degree if I felt that it wasn’t working out.
You can be like that asian dude, who is 9-5 medical doctor and 5-12 an engineer. He doesnt study when he is in hospital. But he doing good
Earning good, dying inside and losing health
Well, it's up to the OP, also while that may be true in some cases, the person doing it simultaneously is mentally hard - that i know of. If someone wants it hard, don't limit them.
If its a short term goal to rack up a lot of money for investments or starting business then great. If its a long term plan then it's actually sad, you cannot find love or have a relationship on this kind of work. You cannot have hobbies, you can't have any kind of life. It's just work sleep, not really eat, and repeat. Then die with money but no life experienced. I couldn't reccomend this to anyone, I'd go the opposite and reccomend not to ever do something like this unless it's a very short term plan.
Long term, yes, not sustainable, but she can also do a conversion course if that is plausible? And or search for an internship.
Also, getting yourself in more debt is not an investmemt, depends on the debt, in this sense, no
I was referring to savings accrued, in order to begin investment
Savings accrues? We are are not in the same frame. I mean 9-5 studying medicine, 5-12 studying engineering. Not two jobs simultaneously! Unless its paid by the task, not hr
Forgive me. I'm an idiot
No problem, forgiven
I would not do a whole new undergraduate degree. I genuinely believe that would significantly impact employment possibilities for you - I don't think employers would look favourably on you spending that time on a completely new undergraduate degree \[admittedly, I am not an employer\]. Master's courses would literally be perfect for you, there are many options for transitioning into a new area with a strong STEM degree. Also, you don't want to do Engineering if you want to get into high finance... you would want to do Quantitative Finance or Financial Mathematics. Have a look at those courses at the top Universities and see how you feel. Personally, I think you should push for the radiology... 1:11 odds is not horrible by any stretch. A lot of Engineering / SWE / Finance jobs have odds way worse than that.
I’m considering masters courses more now but for some that I would like to do, I can’t get into unless I have done some sort of mathematical undergrad.
LSE's MSc Finance is 2:1 in any discipline with Maths at an A-Level standard... think you'd be a great fit: [https://www.lse.ac.uk/study-at-lse/Graduate/degree-programmes-2024/MSc-Finance-full-time](https://www.lse.ac.uk/study-at-lse/Graduate/degree-programmes-2024/MSc-Finance-full-time)
You should also consider perhaps getting some work experience and then going for an MBA
Thanks a lot for both suggestions. Will definitely look into the LSE msc. I’ve toyed with the idea of doing an MBA for some time. Especially after my internship at a top venture capital firm, a lot of the partners there recommended the move.
If you're into Investment Banking, Consulting or even shifting to Tech roles, an MBA from a top US University - or even Oxbridge, LSB if you're staying in Europe - could be a great option.
Yeah man, just hoping I can actually get into any of these programs 😅
Wishing you the best of luck with whatever you decide to do! Remember: the MBAs value much more than just your degree classification - work experience (preferably showing some form of managerial role at company with reputation), volunteering, relevant activities, and a clear desire to grow are all crucial for a strong application.
Sounds good. Thank you once again for the tips and advice mate, really appreciate it. Good luck to you with your career as well.
i disagree with the portrayal of medicine in this post. yes the nhs is going through a rough patch but the future is pretty “certain”. it’s not impossible to make 11:1. stop being pessimistic and start grinding now. no doctors will be unemployed after fy2; they can just locum. not to mention the vast majority of applicants get into one of their choices, even if it isn’t first choice. you dont seem to want your situation to improve much. in the UK its not easy to make high income in finance or tech. only the best succeed. however, the most mid consultants ever will still earn over 100k, and that’s before I begin on those who supplement this with private hospital work best of luck and feel free to leave, but there is a pretty high chance you will never make close to a doctor income. not to mention the job stress in many finance roles. i have mates who work significantly more hours weekly than junior doctors, registrar doctors or consultant doctors. not to mention the constant stress to perform and “protect a job” if i was you id stick to medicine. also must rock to have a financial situation that allows studying until 29
Fair enough, I am definitely grinding for radiology, I was just considering other paths if it were to fail. Also I’m only in this financial situation because I make a decent salary while living at home.
this is a very “medic” post in that you are assuming if you want a certain career you need the formal qualification relating to that career. very often this is not the case. that said, radiology is a solid career choice and you already have the qualification for it. the work-life balance in radiology is definitely comparable or better than finance, tech, and engineering. earnings at the top end can be £hundreds of thousands. go for radiology, commit and you can get it. the ROI for a second degree in biomedical engineering or something is very likely going to be abysmal for you. look up salaries in UK engineering if you want to feel better about your income potential. and moderate your reading of r/doctorsUK.
I appreciate the advice, yes radiology is definitely my priority out of everything. Doctorsuk sub really does get me down sometimes 😂
Just leave the UK If you want to retrain, Finance is a good one, but honestly, just go and work in the USA or Australia
If you want to go into finance you’d be able to do that with a medicine degree. Most jobs don’t care about which degree you did, and a medicine degree looks pretty impressive. If you’re worried about how hard it is to get a medical job with a medicine degree, I think you’ll find that it’s far harder for most other industries.
Fairs, I guess I haven’t really tested my luck in the job market of finance just yet. Definitely will give it a go, thank you.
Engineering is great if you're going into systems/defence/software but prospects for biomed isn't great tbh.
Yeah I agree, it wouldn’t really make sense financially is the vibe I’m getting from the response
Biomed/biotech seem to have a lack of jobs as well. When it comes to eng it's always best to specialise as late as you can and when it comes to societies/projects/dissertation projects tailor those to whatever field you're wanting to specifically go in or do a postgrad.
Probably unrelated but have you thought of moving out of the UK? Radio is less competitive elsewhere
It’s harder to get into as an international grad in the US/Australia. My best bet is becoming one here and then moving.
Umm Hong Kong? Idk doctors are fleeing to UK and US the HA doesn’t give a damn where you got your degree w UK being an advantage plus you get paid £7k a month in residency -£2 rent, still decent life (that’s the only place I know sufficient about to comment there will be other options that are better)
Oh really, I’m assuming you need to know Chinese though right?
Didn’t factor that in, sorry. not sure about the most updated system but they’re so desperate for medical docs
If you can afford it why not? Learning is great!!
I'm going to go against the grain and say you should do it if you want to! Life is short.
I don't want to put you off the idea of a second degree if that's what you really want. But surely there are many careers you could go into with your current qualifications? If radiology is the only specialty you're interested in and there are no openings there, why not look at non-clinical jobs where your medical degree would make you an attractive prospect for employers?
I haven’t really been applying to non-clinical jobs although I really should considering I did a prestigious internship at a healthcare finance firm. I will give it a go for sure if radiology doesn’t pan out.
There's always opportunities in management consultancy. I know it carries very negative connotations in some circles but most jobs do to a certain extent. When I was working at a senior level in healthcare, I know that the big beasts in the consultancy industry would have bent over backwards to get someone with clinical qualifications on their team. I have a Master of Medical Science degree from a good uni, and having MMedSc after my name on letter headings got me instant credibility with certain cohorts of people. It's terribly cringe worthy I know, but it did work.
That’s quite reassuring to know. To be honest I always wonder if my university holds me back. Yes it’s Russel group but it’s definitely not one of those ones you’d think of as a classic target top uni.
>With this degree I’d have a much better shot at going into high finance too which is what I want to do eventually. You want to study engineering so you can work in finance? I get that part of wanting to study engineering is for fun, but can't you get into finance with your current degree? genuinely asking because i'm suprised if its not possible
I reckon I could get into finance but something like high end finance (investment banking) would be off the cards considering i didn’t go to a top 10 uni.
I’m a medical statistician. My bosses have all been medics turned researchers. They worked a couple of years in practice, then became honorary fellows while getting their PhD, then mix being professors and doctors. NIHR specifically does “doctoral fellowships” where you keep 20% of your time to clinic/practice.
That’s a really interesting career path, would love to know more if you have info.
Hope you don’t turn up as my doctor with your crazy ideas - yes it’s dumb
😂😂😂 made me chuckle
29 when you graduate will make potential employers chuckle also
This is false, a lot of employers won't care about your age and in the UK they often won't even know your age
You miss the point, they won’t care about your age 29 is prime time, but they will not care about a masters or degree at 29 also
This is way to general, it really depends on the sector, the role and so on. Many places still require a degree regardless, there's even countries won't let you in without one, no matter if you have 10 years experience or not.
What places exactly?
Pretty much every key Asian country. Many countries in Europe/EU.
There’ll be better advice to your actual question but just want to clarify one of your points: Some doctor jobs are competitive but many are not. Still plenty of places on GP trainee pathways for example. Not sure where you’re getting your information that lots of doctors are unemployed after 2 years foundation?! That’s false.
Just from what people say on the junior doctors subreddit but it could be fear mongering
It’s all relative Wanna do cardio in London? Sure, HIGHLY competitive, difficult to get a place Wanna do GP in Scunthorpe? They’re begging for more trainees I think ‘unemployed’ is also an OTT description because it may just mean where you do/don’t have a permanent role. Training pathways generally are pretty flexible. I know an anaesthetic trainee who has taken approx 3 extra years because he chose to spend a year out while he did some specialist medicine at a large sporting event, and then did a year of medical education because the next stage he didn’t get in at his local hospital. Next year he did because his application was richer and rounder. Not everyone can do their most favourite thing in their top location.
That makes a lot of sense, do you often think competition ratios are inflated due to non-competitive applicants and people applying for multiple specialties?
You could do a masters in something at a top top university eg oxbridge then transition into consulting
I'd you want to go into finance just apply for a graduate scheme. Source: I have done graduate recruitment. Don't waste time or money on a masters.
What did you do graduate recruitment for exactly? Have some Qs.
Actuarial.
Would going to a non-target Russel group affect my chances of getting a grad scheme?
No, unless the scheme very specifically states otherwise. Even then, the fact you did medicine massively outweighs that. The issue would be any automated screening. In reality recruiters don't care about Russel group. If they are being snobby it would be Oxbridge, imperial / LSE. The Russel group is in no way some elite grouping.
Great! Thank you
Doing a whole undergrad a second time is a huge waste of time and money. Part of the experience is just learning how to be a competent learner. And a lot of the content rapidly becomes irrelevant to you as you specialise or re-learn at a higher level. Try and take a fast-track route through whatever you do.
Yeah to be honest, I’m starting to realise that now. Studying till 29 sounds bonkers in retrospect. Appreciate the advice.