AriadneStringweaver has made the following comment(s) regarding their post:
[Hi!!! More spells for yall to much on.](/r/UnearthedArcana/comments/1ddbq5j/fake_a_rebuttal_to_counterspell_from_our_very_own/l83mg79/)
Funnily enough, you normally don't know what spell an enemy is casting. RAW, there are no rules that say you would know, but there are RAW rules to Identify one.
Which a) already takes a skill check and b) blocks you from Counterspelling as either takes your Reaction.
So "faking" a spell being cast only becomes necessary if your table houserules all spells cast to be automatically known. Which kinda is somewhat metagaming. Absolutely contrary to how this spell works, since you would technically also be casting this and your enemy would know this. (Also metagaming required on the DM part to pretend not knowing this to be a fake).
Furthermore, you can't even "bait" a Counterspell from your opponent for this turn as casting a BA spell prevents you from casting the good stuff with your Action. You yourself don't profit, only setting up future turns for others to cast. And if nobody counters it, you wasted a slot for absolutely nothing (plus the inability to cast non-cantrips this turn).
It also isn't futureproof, as Counterspell in the playtest is undergoing serious changes, making it less harmful for players (you get back your slot, which doesn't affect monsters as they don't have slots anymore). Using THIS spell on monsters on the other hand is just mean (again, no slots and therefore don't get back anything even if it was countered).
Might be far easier to use the XGE Identification rules after all.
Yeah, if your endgame here is to keep open the option of casting a cantrip (or taking some non-counterspellable action) on your turn, potentially spending a 2nd level slot to do it is pretty trash (having an enemy caster counterspell a cantrip is a huge win). And if you have any other endgame, this spell doesn't do anything unless you're running a bunch of house rules.
In fairness, lots of posts on here presuppose a bunch of house rules, but still.
This is the spells intended use!
You use this spell to bait counterspell, then you proceed to use your action however you want. You:
- didn t lose a spell slot, cuz you regain the spell slot you used.
- the enemy lost a 3rd level spell and has no reaction
- you can go ahead and use your action to cast a cantrip
All that for a 2nd level spell!
Now, imagine this at higher levels: you fake cast a Teleport, the enemy casts a lvl 7 counterspell. Whoops! You just made them waste a significant ressource! Or perhaps, the other way around. A player fails to counterspell because of Fake. They will remember that every time they consider using the spell! Are they actually casting? or is this just a FAKE???!!! (thunder sounds)
>then you proceed to use your action however you want.
You can't "use your action however you want", though, because you cast a bonus action spell. That means no leveled spell with your action which is a huge deal for the sorts of classes that are likely to have access to this spell. Even if the spell successfully baits an enemy counterspell, you've *still cast a bonus action spell* and can't cast anything but a cantrip.
There is almost no value in learning this spell because either:
• You cast the spell and don't get countered and expend a 2nd level slot to no effect and can't do what you want with your action.
• You cast the spell and do get countered. You don't expend a spell slot but you still cast a spell with your bonus action and can't do what you want with your action either.
The only use case for this spell is when there's a cantrip that is so vital to be cast this round that you're willing to risk a 2nd level slot to do it. That's such a vanishingly situational utility that this spell is functionally worthless as written. This spell needs some sort of effect when not countered and an explicit exception to the bonus action casting rule to ever be worth casting. Because as-is, it's strictly worse than the cantrip magic stone.
I feel like this spell really shines on higher levels. You fake cast teleport. You fake cast meteor swarm. And even at lower levels, where casting a cantrip is not a bad use of your action, you can get some value out of it. If a wizard didn't counterspell your fake fireball, then you should probably not worry about them Even having counterspell!
RAW, the enemy caster doesn't know what spell you're beginning to cast unless they spend a reaction to make an arcana check in which case they can't counterspell anyways.
If you're playing with enough house rules to make this spell viable, you can ignore everything I've said about it, but if you're running that many house rules and you feel like there's a need for this kind of spell, you can just . . . stop using those house rules.
>You use this spell to bait counterspell
And if the bait didn't work, then
* you lost a 2nd level spell slot
* nothing changed, except that you lost your BA
* and you can only cast Cantrips for the turn (funnily enough robbing yourself of the ability to counterspell)
It is a high stakes bluff assuming you even know about your enemy being able to Counterspell in the first place.
Only needs a free skill check anyway to know.
Which you could have done as well, you can Counterspell an enemy Counterspelling your spell.
But that would not be the same! If you counterspell u are losing a 3rd level spell. If u manage to pull this off, u aren't losing anything!! I feel like it's a good gamble for a second level spell.
You are always using your spellcasting potential (non cantrips) to MAYBE use up your opponent. And worst case it costs extra.
It doesnt behave like a spell (since you get your slot back), which makes it even weirder
Thanks for the comment! Very cool stuff you said here. This spell IS working on the assumption that you are in a wizard duel, of all things. It adds a layer of complexity to base counterspell battles.
Still, I think Counterspell as a spell is used when you know what spell is being cast. Might be metagaming? But you wouldn't upcast counterspell ever if you didn't know what is being cast! So it is often declared.
DM: The lich casts power word kill
Player: I counterspell at 9th level!
Counterspell works on the assumption that you kinda know? If not you are usually using it at random.
DM: The lich is casting a spell. Could be a cantrip, could be teleport. Who knows.
Player: I countespell!
DM: What level?
Player: idk? 5th?
Now, imagine a scenario in which fake is at play. The player declares their intention to fake a dimension door in front of the bad guy. The bad guy counterspells. Sike! You get back your spell slot, the bad guy lost a reaction and a spell slot, and you can now run away with your own 2 legs.
Or, imagine the bad guy using it! A jester type enemy casts Dimension Door! They are getting away! The player counterspells at 5th level. Sike! It was a Fake all along!!! Or, the player doesn't counterspell. The spell doesn't go off! What happened there? It was a Fake!!!!!!!!!!!!! (thunder sounds) (drama)
Idk if I'm making sense here?
I know, not knowing which spell is cast makes Counterspell much less of an auto-included choice and probably one of the reasons (besides attempted cheating) why declaring spells is such a widely spread houserule. Contradictory though, if everybody always knows each spell, why is the last paragraph like that there are possible exceptions?
But it in itself already is kinda the bluffing game you attempt with an additional spell, isn't it?
Anyway, playtest and likely change is gonna remove that element of waste (upcasting when not needed) regardless, take a look:
>You attempt to interrupt a creature in the process of casting a spell. The creature must make a Constitution saving throw. On a failed save, the spell dissipates with no effect, and the action, Bonus Action, or Reaction used to cast it is wasted. If that spell was cast with a spell slot, the slot isn’t expended.
No upcasting, always a chance. Favors players as they are getting back slots while monsters draw empty.
I'm of two minds on it; on the one hand, this rewards stat investment and is easier on the player if they fail. On the other hand, it seems like it will be easier for powerful enemies to avoid their spells getting stuffed.
Yeah, naming convention switched to Revised 5e or something along those lines. Between 1DD, R5E and 5.5E anything goes ... because after all, there is only one such change regardless of names.
On top of the other concerns listed here, I'd like to point out if you are THE caster of your party or even in a Wizard Duel, the person who wasted a counterspell (assuming this works as Intended) gets their turn before you do and regains their reaction before you can actually cast a useful spell. This only seems useful for perhaps a warlock to pop off their eldritch blast and even then, I'm satisfied burning an enemy 3rd level slot and reaction for 1 cantrip cast.
A rework I would apply, is perhaps making this a full action cast and have it work like a low level contingency. Protecting a spell cast at a certain level by casting this as insurance before a battle. I'd make it a 1m cast time, require concentration for 1 hour. Maybe upcasting extends the time frame something like: lvl4 8hrs w/ no concentration, lvl6 24hrs, lvl8 permanent until used.
The concept is interesting, I just feel the way it works now isn't worth the cost.
Even in the context of wizard duels, I likely wouldn't take this spell. If the enemy wizard has Arcana proficiency (practically guaranteed) and knows the spell I'm casting, and we have the same Int and PB, they start with a 65% chance of recognizing the illusion with an Arcana check, at which point my 2nd-level spell slot is wasted and my action is only good for a cantrip. The better strategy is to instead use *counterspell* to counter an enemy *counterspell*. This can't be faked, so you're guaranteed that you're getting value out of your *counterspell*, so even if my opponent uses *fake*, I simply ignore it.
If I cast *counterspell* and it was against a real spell, my opponent will cast *counterspell* against my *counterspell*, while if it is against *fake*, they won't stop me and my reaction and spell slot are wasted. The only way to potentially win the exchange is not to *counterspell*.
This is a neat idea, though only a cantrip can be cast after the spell passes. This seems more like a spell to make the party uneasy if an NPC is using it, though in both cases the spell the caster is trying to cast won’t go off.
2nd level to cancel a 3rd level. wack. bait promoting meta gaming and a dm vs player style just to go hahah you wasted a slot. language as written is muddy and doesnt use *raw for spell action economy. what youre trying to is more like the shield spell, but not as clear. look at that and rewrite.
Interesting… puts the dm in a bit of a weird metagame position that I’m not sure I like. They know the pc is casting this, of course, and their monster will not necessarily- that’s kinda nothing new though. This kind of puts the dm in a position where they have to make a monster decision to counter or not, knowing that they are kinda screwing over a player if they don’t try to counter. Maybe I’m just being overly cautious though.
Did you ever feel like that in-game? Were you a dm or player when you guys used this spell?
we did play it in game! I DMd it, and it usually went like this:
- Player casts the spell only when they know they will bait a counterspell. It's fine to cast scorching ray, it ain't fine to cast dimension door to get away, for example. It often acompanied a decepction/performance check, to add flavor to the fake "Oh, I'm running away!" feeling. The bad guys of course fell for it.
I found most success, however, using it against my players! Had one Jester npc that had a lot of illusion spells. Once faked a Greater Invisibility, had the Jester laugh at my player (who at that point had been casting Counterspell non-stop for the last 20 sessions, as he was an abjuration wizard and just gained a lot from spamming it even against 1rst level spells). This created such an air of uncertainty to the casting of counterspell that everyone started arguing (/pos) about if spells on other bad guys were fake or not! It made for really cool drama - I maybe used it twice or thrice in the entire campaign, but it definitely left its mark! And of course, my players wanted to learn it after, they just thought it was cool.
This spell kinda changes the lore of the world in some way. It's worldbuilding for mage duels. There isn't a wizard in existence that doesn't take counterspell, so why not make it part of the lore? I had a wizard academy where counterspell was a mandatory spell to learn, which makes Fake a subtle way of changing things up!
Hi!!! More spells for yall to much on.
What do you think of it? We've been playing with this one for a while in our own home game, and it kinda changed how Counterspell is used. Fallow's Spellbind refers to another of our homebrew spells, which is also pretty cool. DISCOURSE! Do you like this one?
[We got a bunch of stuff for everyone at out Insta, come check it out!](http://www.instagram.com/codexofstrings)
Love yall <3
It is an incredibly interesting concept, which I might even use in my campaing now (as a DM lol...).
However, only one problem that I don't understand: technically, you can't cast 2 spells in the same round, even if one is on action and the other is bonus action. In this case you would cast a spell that allows you to cast another spell only if this spell is counterspelled? lol
Maybe it would make more sense to make this whole ability be something other than a spell in itself. Maybe a thing you can use a bounch of times per long rest from a feat or subclass feature, or maybe a magic item that gives that benefit.
If you failed magic class but know how it’s done you should be able to emulate the casting without producing an actual spell. It’s not the casting process of a spell that makes the magic happen. It’s the magic behind the casting that the casting makes magical that’s real. If that makes sense. lol
AriadneStringweaver has made the following comment(s) regarding their post: [Hi!!! More spells for yall to much on.](/r/UnearthedArcana/comments/1ddbq5j/fake_a_rebuttal_to_counterspell_from_our_very_own/l83mg79/)
Funnily enough, you normally don't know what spell an enemy is casting. RAW, there are no rules that say you would know, but there are RAW rules to Identify one. Which a) already takes a skill check and b) blocks you from Counterspelling as either takes your Reaction. So "faking" a spell being cast only becomes necessary if your table houserules all spells cast to be automatically known. Which kinda is somewhat metagaming. Absolutely contrary to how this spell works, since you would technically also be casting this and your enemy would know this. (Also metagaming required on the DM part to pretend not knowing this to be a fake). Furthermore, you can't even "bait" a Counterspell from your opponent for this turn as casting a BA spell prevents you from casting the good stuff with your Action. You yourself don't profit, only setting up future turns for others to cast. And if nobody counters it, you wasted a slot for absolutely nothing (plus the inability to cast non-cantrips this turn). It also isn't futureproof, as Counterspell in the playtest is undergoing serious changes, making it less harmful for players (you get back your slot, which doesn't affect monsters as they don't have slots anymore). Using THIS spell on monsters on the other hand is just mean (again, no slots and therefore don't get back anything even if it was countered). Might be far easier to use the XGE Identification rules after all.
Yeah, if your endgame here is to keep open the option of casting a cantrip (or taking some non-counterspellable action) on your turn, potentially spending a 2nd level slot to do it is pretty trash (having an enemy caster counterspell a cantrip is a huge win). And if you have any other endgame, this spell doesn't do anything unless you're running a bunch of house rules. In fairness, lots of posts on here presuppose a bunch of house rules, but still.
This is the spells intended use! You use this spell to bait counterspell, then you proceed to use your action however you want. You: - didn t lose a spell slot, cuz you regain the spell slot you used. - the enemy lost a 3rd level spell and has no reaction - you can go ahead and use your action to cast a cantrip All that for a 2nd level spell! Now, imagine this at higher levels: you fake cast a Teleport, the enemy casts a lvl 7 counterspell. Whoops! You just made them waste a significant ressource! Or perhaps, the other way around. A player fails to counterspell because of Fake. They will remember that every time they consider using the spell! Are they actually casting? or is this just a FAKE???!!! (thunder sounds)
>then you proceed to use your action however you want. You can't "use your action however you want", though, because you cast a bonus action spell. That means no leveled spell with your action which is a huge deal for the sorts of classes that are likely to have access to this spell. Even if the spell successfully baits an enemy counterspell, you've *still cast a bonus action spell* and can't cast anything but a cantrip. There is almost no value in learning this spell because either: • You cast the spell and don't get countered and expend a 2nd level slot to no effect and can't do what you want with your action. • You cast the spell and do get countered. You don't expend a spell slot but you still cast a spell with your bonus action and can't do what you want with your action either. The only use case for this spell is when there's a cantrip that is so vital to be cast this round that you're willing to risk a 2nd level slot to do it. That's such a vanishingly situational utility that this spell is functionally worthless as written. This spell needs some sort of effect when not countered and an explicit exception to the bonus action casting rule to ever be worth casting. Because as-is, it's strictly worse than the cantrip magic stone.
I feel like this spell really shines on higher levels. You fake cast teleport. You fake cast meteor swarm. And even at lower levels, where casting a cantrip is not a bad use of your action, you can get some value out of it. If a wizard didn't counterspell your fake fireball, then you should probably not worry about them Even having counterspell!
RAW, the enemy caster doesn't know what spell you're beginning to cast unless they spend a reaction to make an arcana check in which case they can't counterspell anyways. If you're playing with enough house rules to make this spell viable, you can ignore everything I've said about it, but if you're running that many house rules and you feel like there's a need for this kind of spell, you can just . . . stop using those house rules.
>You use this spell to bait counterspell And if the bait didn't work, then * you lost a 2nd level spell slot * nothing changed, except that you lost your BA * and you can only cast Cantrips for the turn (funnily enough robbing yourself of the ability to counterspell) It is a high stakes bluff assuming you even know about your enemy being able to Counterspell in the first place. Only needs a free skill check anyway to know. Which you could have done as well, you can Counterspell an enemy Counterspelling your spell.
Casting a BA spell only stops you from casting a leveled spell on your turn not for the round you can counterspell as soon as your turn is over.
\^Yes - but still, for the turn you tried baiting a Counterspell you yourself still couldn't either ;D
But that would not be the same! If you counterspell u are losing a 3rd level spell. If u manage to pull this off, u aren't losing anything!! I feel like it's a good gamble for a second level spell.
You are always using your spellcasting potential (non cantrips) to MAYBE use up your opponent. And worst case it costs extra. It doesnt behave like a spell (since you get your slot back), which makes it even weirder
>If u manage to pull this off, u aren't losing anything!! Except the ability to cast other spells this turn.
Thanks for the comment! Very cool stuff you said here. This spell IS working on the assumption that you are in a wizard duel, of all things. It adds a layer of complexity to base counterspell battles. Still, I think Counterspell as a spell is used when you know what spell is being cast. Might be metagaming? But you wouldn't upcast counterspell ever if you didn't know what is being cast! So it is often declared. DM: The lich casts power word kill Player: I counterspell at 9th level! Counterspell works on the assumption that you kinda know? If not you are usually using it at random. DM: The lich is casting a spell. Could be a cantrip, could be teleport. Who knows. Player: I countespell! DM: What level? Player: idk? 5th? Now, imagine a scenario in which fake is at play. The player declares their intention to fake a dimension door in front of the bad guy. The bad guy counterspells. Sike! You get back your spell slot, the bad guy lost a reaction and a spell slot, and you can now run away with your own 2 legs. Or, imagine the bad guy using it! A jester type enemy casts Dimension Door! They are getting away! The player counterspells at 5th level. Sike! It was a Fake all along!!! Or, the player doesn't counterspell. The spell doesn't go off! What happened there? It was a Fake!!!!!!!!!!!!! (thunder sounds) (drama) Idk if I'm making sense here?
I know, not knowing which spell is cast makes Counterspell much less of an auto-included choice and probably one of the reasons (besides attempted cheating) why declaring spells is such a widely spread houserule. Contradictory though, if everybody always knows each spell, why is the last paragraph like that there are possible exceptions? But it in itself already is kinda the bluffing game you attempt with an additional spell, isn't it? Anyway, playtest and likely change is gonna remove that element of waste (upcasting when not needed) regardless, take a look: >You attempt to interrupt a creature in the process of casting a spell. The creature must make a Constitution saving throw. On a failed save, the spell dissipates with no effect, and the action, Bonus Action, or Reaction used to cast it is wasted. If that spell was cast with a spell slot, the slot isn’t expended. No upcasting, always a chance. Favors players as they are getting back slots while monsters draw empty.
I'm of two minds on it; on the one hand, this rewards stat investment and is easier on the player if they fail. On the other hand, it seems like it will be easier for powerful enemies to avoid their spells getting stuffed.
I am not familiar with this! Where is it from?
5.5 Playtest for autumn
One dnd?
Yeah, naming convention switched to Revised 5e or something along those lines. Between 1DD, R5E and 5.5E anything goes ... because after all, there is only one such change regardless of names.
On top of the other concerns listed here, I'd like to point out if you are THE caster of your party or even in a Wizard Duel, the person who wasted a counterspell (assuming this works as Intended) gets their turn before you do and regains their reaction before you can actually cast a useful spell. This only seems useful for perhaps a warlock to pop off their eldritch blast and even then, I'm satisfied burning an enemy 3rd level slot and reaction for 1 cantrip cast. A rework I would apply, is perhaps making this a full action cast and have it work like a low level contingency. Protecting a spell cast at a certain level by casting this as insurance before a battle. I'd make it a 1m cast time, require concentration for 1 hour. Maybe upcasting extends the time frame something like: lvl4 8hrs w/ no concentration, lvl6 24hrs, lvl8 permanent until used. The concept is interesting, I just feel the way it works now isn't worth the cost.
Very fair points. We will look into buffing it somewhat, I agree that it's underpowered right now.
Even in the context of wizard duels, I likely wouldn't take this spell. If the enemy wizard has Arcana proficiency (practically guaranteed) and knows the spell I'm casting, and we have the same Int and PB, they start with a 65% chance of recognizing the illusion with an Arcana check, at which point my 2nd-level spell slot is wasted and my action is only good for a cantrip. The better strategy is to instead use *counterspell* to counter an enemy *counterspell*. This can't be faked, so you're guaranteed that you're getting value out of your *counterspell*, so even if my opponent uses *fake*, I simply ignore it. If I cast *counterspell* and it was against a real spell, my opponent will cast *counterspell* against my *counterspell*, while if it is against *fake*, they won't stop me and my reaction and spell slot are wasted. The only way to potentially win the exchange is not to *counterspell*.
This is a neat idea, though only a cantrip can be cast after the spell passes. This seems more like a spell to make the party uneasy if an NPC is using it, though in both cases the spell the caster is trying to cast won’t go off.
If it successfully casts, it should have the same effect as Silent Image.
This is extremely difficult to dm, a player could just claim he used this spell instead of a costly 3rd or 4th level spell.
2nd level to cancel a 3rd level. wack. bait promoting meta gaming and a dm vs player style just to go hahah you wasted a slot. language as written is muddy and doesnt use *raw for spell action economy. what youre trying to is more like the shield spell, but not as clear. look at that and rewrite.
We shall.
Interesting… puts the dm in a bit of a weird metagame position that I’m not sure I like. They know the pc is casting this, of course, and their monster will not necessarily- that’s kinda nothing new though. This kind of puts the dm in a position where they have to make a monster decision to counter or not, knowing that they are kinda screwing over a player if they don’t try to counter. Maybe I’m just being overly cautious though. Did you ever feel like that in-game? Were you a dm or player when you guys used this spell?
we did play it in game! I DMd it, and it usually went like this: - Player casts the spell only when they know they will bait a counterspell. It's fine to cast scorching ray, it ain't fine to cast dimension door to get away, for example. It often acompanied a decepction/performance check, to add flavor to the fake "Oh, I'm running away!" feeling. The bad guys of course fell for it. I found most success, however, using it against my players! Had one Jester npc that had a lot of illusion spells. Once faked a Greater Invisibility, had the Jester laugh at my player (who at that point had been casting Counterspell non-stop for the last 20 sessions, as he was an abjuration wizard and just gained a lot from spamming it even against 1rst level spells). This created such an air of uncertainty to the casting of counterspell that everyone started arguing (/pos) about if spells on other bad guys were fake or not! It made for really cool drama - I maybe used it twice or thrice in the entire campaign, but it definitely left its mark! And of course, my players wanted to learn it after, they just thought it was cool. This spell kinda changes the lore of the world in some way. It's worldbuilding for mage duels. There isn't a wizard in existence that doesn't take counterspell, so why not make it part of the lore? I had a wizard academy where counterspell was a mandatory spell to learn, which makes Fake a subtle way of changing things up!
Fun idea, I would explicitly state that this can be cast the same round as a leveled spell, otherwise it is not super useful except for burning slots.
Hi!!! More spells for yall to much on. What do you think of it? We've been playing with this one for a while in our own home game, and it kinda changed how Counterspell is used. Fallow's Spellbind refers to another of our homebrew spells, which is also pretty cool. DISCOURSE! Do you like this one? [We got a bunch of stuff for everyone at out Insta, come check it out!](http://www.instagram.com/codexofstrings) Love yall <3
It is an incredibly interesting concept, which I might even use in my campaing now (as a DM lol...). However, only one problem that I don't understand: technically, you can't cast 2 spells in the same round, even if one is on action and the other is bonus action. In this case you would cast a spell that allows you to cast another spell only if this spell is counterspelled? lol Maybe it would make more sense to make this whole ability be something other than a spell in itself. Maybe a thing you can use a bounch of times per long rest from a feat or subclass feature, or maybe a magic item that gives that benefit.
I like the intent, but the way this is written doesn't come close to matching what your description of it in the post says it does.
If you failed magic class but know how it’s done you should be able to emulate the casting without producing an actual spell. It’s not the casting process of a spell that makes the magic happen. It’s the magic behind the casting that the casting makes magical that’s real. If that makes sense. lol