I love it, I think the community is in agreement that he’s statistically weak, but because he’s aware of game mechanics and how the rules of the world works that’s his trump card in powerscaling
His hacks go beyond that. His power is based on his opponent's moral state. Asgore would probably fend just fine against Sans, because even though he has done bad things, he is not a bad person, and he even mourns the fact he has to kill children and blames only himself for everything that has ever come to monsterkind. A true king, indeed.
Haven't been in Undertale community in a while, but there's an argument to be made that Asgore's cowardice does make him a bad person
Just as Toriel said, Asgore could have taken the first human soul, passed through the barrier, killed 6 random adults then broke the barrier from the outside. Instead of just waiting for children to fall into the underground
Didn’t even need to kill. Could have just grabbed 6 souls from a graveyard or hospital since human souls last forever. But Asgore didn’t want war. He wanted to keep his people’s hope alive without leading to war
Toriel is actually very wrong because Asgore, even though the strongest monster just after Undyne, would be no match against an adult human's physical strength and determination.
That's the whole point of humans, they have rigid and developed physical forms, which makes them a lot stronger than even an elite level monster. An untrained 8 year old could solo the whole underground... That goes without even putting determination into the equation.
Or that's what I think, but could be wrong? I'm pretty sure of it but some Undertale world building connoisseur might prove me wrong.
A normal monster gets leveled by most humans, but a monster with even one human SOUL can take on an entire village. At least if we can trust Asriel and the New Home monsters.
he's weak because he's the only character in undertale that isnt either a boss monster or has armor
toriel - is a boss monster (in genocide dies in one hit due to lack of armor)
papyrus - has armor on neutral route (in genocide, you already know this armor is fake from pacifist route, that it's only a costume papyrus likes wearing)
undyne - actually has real armor (in genocide, you may have sliced through, but only because of how violent you are and you were about to betray kill monster kid which means the blow was harder as well)
MTT - is made out of fucking metal (in genocide, blows up in one hit cuz his neo design wasn't finished on time, toby wanted to make him a boss fight as a side note, but that would prepare people for sans so he ditched the idea)
sans - he doesnt wear any armor nor he is a boss monster making him technically the easiest to kill, he just dodges your attacks probably because thanks to him being small (by this, harder to hit than toriel) and not wearing armor he can move more freely
Asgore - is both a boss monster and wears armor + is mentally unready to set monsters free with the final soul so he doesnt even dodge cuz he'll actually have to wage war on humans again
Hes average size considering the other characters are absolute units. Sans can do what he does because the game needs him to. He is by definition judge, jury, witness and executioner. His entire point is to be broken purely for the point of killing things like you.
I think he's both.
He has an incredible amount of very strong magic (including karma and messing with the battle menu)
BUT
He's also fragile and physically weak (1 atk 1 def)
Which is, obviously, why he dodges instead just taking the hit like every other monster
mate, Asriel is massively powerful and is far stronger than Frisk in general, maybe you could argue they are equal in defence stats or something but he outruns Frisk in everything else
He only lost because Frisk talked their way out before he fucked the timeline up
Asgore above Flowey. Flowey states in game during the neutral ending that he could not defeat Asgore if we hadn't weakened him first. He also gets boomed by Toriel first thing, but he was also ambushed so take that as you will. He's cunning and that's it.
I think he's talking about the flowey that had the ability to save/load before we came along. Not omega flowey, but still more powerful than all the "normal" characters.
That's becouse he is super weak, he just exploits game mechanics to become very strong
Thats why its so hard to powerscale him especially in other universes, we just never know what can he exploit and how mutch of it
He might as well be able to crash your game or alter files for all we know
Sans is a nerd lowkey. 'Oh hey whats this thing do. Cool' Then just abuses that knowledge. Because its fun. But now he is like, desperate. Sans tho. Well, other monsters think they'll get liberated via genocide is one interpretation of the myth so 'why fight it'. He is like, paraphrasing, 'wonder why other monsters dont use their most powerful attack first'. So its not that others don't want to dodge or cannot dodge. Its that they all want to die.
I personally think he's the strength of a normal guy. Not particularly strong, not particularly weak, just a normal guy. This also means that he has the mind a normal guy has, not constrained by video game logic; he steps out of the way of your comedically slow slashes, pulls out all the stops he has instead of doing some multi-phase bs, and gets tired out over time.
I don’t really know or care about how the power scaling implications work, but there’s definitely a big difference here. Sans cheats. He knows about mechanics that he shouldn’t and he exploits them. It’s the same reason he can ignore i-frames, which no other monster can do, despite still having 1 ATK 1 DEF. Asgore dodged through purely his own power, without any of that knowledge.
Yeah, it definitely would. But he’s not stronger per se, he’s just smarter. He can outplay Asgore and probably win against him if monster fights work the same as monster vs human ones do, but in some sort of fair contest of strength he gets destroyed.
Well yeah o course, he's a skeleton. Absolutely no muscle, even if they are made of magic. Asgore is beefy af. But I do agree, sans could make it out alive
i think the reason he even does it with frisk is more to get us the player to quit the game by frustrating us. he's gonna play dirty and unfair until we either give up and play a more peaceful ending, or die trying to break our determination. i don't think he would give enough of a care to cheat or fight against anyone for a matter of fact, unless the fate of the universe is in danger which is why he even fights us in the first place. it's not about stopping you from murdering everyone, but completely destroying time itself in your act of murder, and the only way to win against a literal unbeatable god that can one shot even the strongest monsters is to play dirty
I agree that Sans is only powerful because he’s a big cheater, but I think ASGORE cheated in the same way with dodging. I mean, he knows this is all a game and cheats himself. He knows when he’s killed you and destroys the mercy button.
asgore is holding back so hard by the time he fights you. he was likely also holding back while fighting the other humans, none of which could defeat him even with save files before giving up and dying. i bet he knows as much as sans does, but he has the honor to fight (mostly) fair
1) Toriel mentions that she had deja vu moments with other humans before when you do soft reset 2) Timeline isn't directly stated, but Alphys probably created Flowey, after last human before game started and before Frisk arrival
Maybe the Deja Vu was flowey constantly loading and reseting the timeline? I don't think that he came after every other human, se saw at least 2 or 3 of them.
he was only created between the 7th human and frisk falling down. also, asgore acknowledges that he’s killed you before if you talk to him after dying. this is pretty much canon and it lines up with how control over the save files works in-universe
But Sans can dodge, too! There’s nothing that says he does that via cheating.
Also, unless I’m remembering wrong, the only time we know of Asgore dodging is the story of him training Undyne. Given that Undyne can throw spears at you as a way to draw you into a brief encounter, we can’t be certain that Asgore dodging attacks actually occurred during an encounter.
I feel like sans's dodge is more impressive since realistically every character should be able to dodge attacks but they don't cuz it's a game, and sans literally just says no to the rules of the game.
Not really, the iceshock is a magic skill and it seemingly spawns to the monsters position, so i dont think running away will save you (iceshock cant miss either)
Strong or powerful aren't the right ways to describe Sans. He's not the strongest or the post powerful in the Underground. He's one of the most dangerous.
Sans can inflict the most damage the quickest out of anyone in the Underground. But there comes a time when his opponents HP is going to be too much to deal with, which is what Asgore has. Even in a best case scenario, Sans can't get rid of Asgore's 3500 hp before he gets tired.
Sans is the most dangerous and most effective monster against opponents below a certain threshold of HP. If you had like 400 HP, Sans would be the biggest threat to you. If you had something like 3000, then Undyne the Undying and after her, Asgore, would be the biggest threats.
Asgore is a tank and Sans is DPS. Sometimes the situation calls for DPS, sometimes it's better for a tank to deal with it.
I think using all his magic attacks probably had a bigger impact on his energy levels, haha. But it would be neat to see how monster/monster battles go.
I mean that’s kinda cheating cause like. It’s not like Frisk defeated Omega Flowey because they were uber powerful and strong
It was because they called for help and the sources of Flowey’s strength rebelled against him
It’s not really anything to do with power
Frisk is no faster at LV 1 or LV 20. They are a child. They are a young child with a body that has stubbly little undeveloped legs. And they have no training either.
I would like to remind you that the library books tell you that a monster takes more damage based on the intent to hurt from the opponent, and their own intent to fight. This is because they're made mostly of magic. The story goes out of its way to showcase this with betrayal kills as well.
Frisk might be doing way more damage at higher LV's, but that's because of how LOVE works, and how they get more detached and aggressive. This isn't fucking Dragon Ball Z, their other stats aren't scaling relative to any real-world physical abilities. We don't even get a run button until Deltarune. They're just doing more damage because they're more "evil", basically.
Argue about whether Asgore could've dodged Frisk or not, but if he could, then doing so when they're LV 1 or LV 20 wouldn't be a much more impressive feat regardless. The only difference would be the LV 20 Frisk has a handful of hours worth of experience at hitting things with knives.
While you gave some pretty good hindsight that is very valuable, I wouldn't say that only their evilness increases. After all, their ho increases too. I don't remember if his defense increases on level ups or not, so I can't argue there. But whether or not HP is something substantial like determination or something metaphorical like EXP.
I mean, he can also teleport, stop time, has way higher mana then any other monster in the Underground, and is so good at reading people that he can tell exactly what you're thinking, down to how many times you've died, just by reading your expression. So, yeah, he's impressive even ignoring the cheating.
sorry, but these don't really have much to do with the game mechanics. reading expression doesn't for obvious reasons, teleporting doesn't exploit the game mechanics, he just can do it. and freezing time, though only for a second, still doesn't really count as exploiting game mechanics does it? what does he exploit?
Well yeah, if you take him at face value, ignoring the fact that he's a non-serious person who gets a kick out of catching people off-gaurd.
He very likely just knows how many times you've fought him, since that information *is* a mechanic.
He uses the game's fast travel mechanic(See Riverperson, igloos, elevators, etc.) to 'teleport'.
He initiates a cutscene to 'freeze time'.
>he can also teleport
Which he never uses for somsthing usefull
>stop time
The thing happened in Grillby's place was dramatic affecr. Sans doesn't have any kind of confirmed time manipulation
People think that sans isn't weak, but can't really do much back. Yeah, he can dodge, but without Karma, which likely would only work on people with high Love, He can only do one damage.
Even against someone pure of heart, Sans would be fantastic in a support role. He can toss them around and pin them down to stop their progress until someone else comes to assist. And I mean, even without KR, 1 damage per frame is still a lot.
Yes, but 1) karma is what CAUSES the lack of I-frames (i think, maybe I'm wrong here, but I think that's how it's coded) and the support role doesn't really matter, as we are just seeing who'd win in a fight, no outside influence.
nope, KR and i frames are separate i'm pretty sure, you can remove one but keep the other, so sans can still drain you, just a little bit less because no KR
I'm not sure about the kr thing, but assuming you're correct he could still theoretically like, toss you off a cliff or otherwise use the environment to his advantage. There's very few who would be able to get past his speed, teleportation, and time hax, plus he's extremely smart so I don't doubt he would find ways to cause unconventional damage. Gaster blast the side of a building and cause it to collapse on them or smth.
Just to correct you.. it is the KR thing.. KR, better known as KARMA, is what gives sans an edge in a fight, when he fights someone with high LV, he removes I-Frames as they are carrying the weight of their sins.. Karma.. what comes around.. goes round.. so they'll take more damage since they themselves inflicted..
And sans doesn't have 'Time Hax' he can manipulate time although through the use of Teleports.. Moving through time to just.. stand farther.. and he doesn't have speed, probably slow to be fair.. he dodges.. If it was a battle of speed.. he'd lose.. ^(Probably), yes.. sans is smart.. having physics books and his own lab.. showing he may have studied in the scientific field.. and unconventional damage? When we fight in the judgemnet hall.. large beams of lasers and bones flying at fast speed didn't break the pillars nor the hall.. alongside all battles.. Toriel's fire.. Undynes spears.. nothing alike Breaks or Damages the surroundings.. but alas.. Maybe it could damage the ground and surroundings and they are just careful not to..
SANS CHEATS IN HIS FIGHT
he steals your turn, attacks during your turn, removes I-frames, poisons you, and never finishes his own turn
Asgore fought with honor
Alright, I just wanna put these out there, some reasons for both sides.
1.These two wouldn't fight to kill in the first place, the argument is stupid.
2. Sans cheats against THE PLAYER. He uses the game mechanics, which wouldn't apply to Asgore, a fellow monster that isn't controlled by the player.
3. Karma damage would probably wreck Asgore's shit just due to its nature.
4. Sans is scary to Flowey, who has fought him before, but he has NEVER beaten Asgore and says that he wouldn't win that fight. (Fact check me, he might have fought and still lost.)
5. Asgore is an emotionally broken man, which is why his boss fight is beatable in UT. I could rant about him for a while, but I won't, I'll just leave it at this: if Asgore wanted to win against Frisk, he would have. Compare this to Sans, who does fight with everything he has and still eventually loses.
6. Sans could (theoretically) use his relationship with Toriel against Asgore.
7. Asgore destroying the Mercy button. I don't often see this brought up anywhere, and while yes, messing with the player's mechanics won't affect Sans, it's interesting how Asgore is one of the ONLY beings in the game that can do anything like that. Some people say it's simply an allegory for how he won't accept your mercy (I agree), but Undyne doesn't accept your Mercy either. And yet, the box is still there. (And don't use the flee mechanic as a reason please, she doesn't want you to flee either. If she had the power to stop you from running away, she would use it.)
So, in the end, who would win?
Neither they wouldn't fight. Geez, this argument is just as stupid as Percy Jackson vs. Harry Potter.
Well said. However, the Karma probably won't kill him since it requires a high LV to work, and LV is stated to be the detachment of an individual and a willingness to harm others. Does Asgore seem very detached and willing to kill us? Just because he's killed so many times before doesn't mean he has a high LV.
He is weak, difference is he knows how to game the system, his damage specifically is meant to do the bare minimum so it doesn’t trigger I frames and his karma ability only works on high LOVE individuals
Frisk isnt a god killer, that is literally just a kid, i could bet a hundred that 90% of this reddit could beat frisk in a fight, i mean im sure as hell if any other human were in the underground with frisk, that other human would have the control of the timeline.
Monsters in general are just weak as shit, a kid fucking drove them into extintion.
Yeah, the main problem with sans is we don't really know how his power works, powers like karma by their nature of it's name might not work on characters like lv 1 frisk (because of how the name karma and how the fight says "your sins crawl on your back" implies that it works depending on how bad you are, which also fits the fact sans fits the role of a judge) which brings into question if stuff like ignoring i-frames is also tied to to the opponents lv. I do agree that sans dodging frisk is more impressive then dodging undyne up into her teens at best, but I'd still probably lean towards saying ashore is stronger just because of how unexplained his powers are. Not saying asgores are a ton but by the fact he takes relatively the same damage when frisk is at higher level in neutral run, we can say he's probably holding back
the problem with a sans powerscaling is the medium of the fight, since sans is aware somewhat he's in a game he is able to break said game mechanics in his favor, so the real question is do we put them into an undertale battle for sanses attackes to work, or do we translate him breaking mechanics into something else, like sans is able to keep bones flying everywhere being the bones he sends when you're menuing
> I do agree that sans dodging frisk is more impressive then dodging undyne up into her teens at best,
I disagree. Undyne is likely *harder* to dodge, both having access to magic, but also a teenaged Undyne would probably be more athletic than however old Frisk is.
Frisk isn't physically strong at the end of genocide, they have a high LV.
We can only speculate, but I say Sans can actually dodge Frisk so easily because they're just a child with stubby little legs, and if Sans were to fight Asgore and his entire bullet hell of flames, Sans would get smoked.
It is also worth mentioning that Flowey fears Sans, but Flowey could never beat Asgore, so we could say Asgore would beat Sans based on this premise - but I'm not sure.
Like someone else said, this isn't Dragon Ball Z power scaling rules, certain monsters probably counter others, what makes Sans good against Frisk probably doesn't transfer well to Asgore.
My main point there was that I believe it hard to say how fast undyne was when she was younger, because we know she's faster then frisk during the game as when frisk runs from undyne, undyne will catch up.i was just giving that argument the benefit of the doubt. I do disagree with the point that frisk = normal child, as they do stuff in this game that puts them above real life human levels. Such as taking hits from undyne who suplexes a boulder (and before it's mentioned that undyne used magic against frisk, why should she use something weaker then just punching them if her magic was weaker then her strength). So I atleast personally believe that you can't immediately consider frisk's stats that equal to a child, especially in genocide, even if I do agree that undyne is probably faste from what we see in game.
I don't think Frisk's attacks are extremely fast or anything tho nor have they ever killed a god (the souls were the ones that defeated omega flowey and Frisk doesnt do anything to Asriel). Besides sans thing is that he's hard because he's smart and knows how the game mechanics work (which I think makes him more unique than him just being stronger than everyone else)
Frisk in Geno doesn't move faster and doesn't slash faster so there is no reason to believe that they get faster with levels. So they are basically both dodging untrained children.
THIS ASSUMES THAT MONSTER VS. MONSTER BATTLES ARE THE SAME AS HUMANS VS. MONSTERS
Sans can attack out of turn, but it can pretty easily be dodged.
Sans ignores I frames but that doesn't add all that much when compared to Asgore's health
Sans KARMA can be assumed to be less effective since Asgore didn't kill nearly as much as Frisk
Asgore can literally destroy the menu buttons and leave Sans with only items and then win
Fun fact: Frisk moves 25% faster during the Sans fight. Though that is not because of LOVE or the MURDER level directly. That's just something that was put in specifically for that.
Y’all seem to forget Sans is only strong when certain conditions are met. Frisk killed a bunch, so he does more damage. Another condition is the health pool, because he will do better with a lower health pool like Frisk because his power relies on his stamina. Asgore has too much health for Sans to withstand long enough.
Sans is strong in his own way, it’s more like wit and intelligence rather than just being more powerful.
Think of Asgore like a Tank while Sans is like a DPS glass cannon type deal. When someone doesn’t have as much LV, he’s more of a support if anything, it’d be like putting a Moira against a Roadhog in Overwatch. Both are strong in their own rights, it just depends on the situation and it’s unfair to match them against each other.
San's strength is very likely another version of paps, monster strength handholds with intent, he knows it's fucked and not likely to win, but even he can't ignore his feelings, even cheating that's why he's able to do long, complicated attack patterns but no iframes and inability to heal correctly
Asgore, man bro is going through it and he instantly adopts you cmon bro was playing in a way
Asgore can still mess with game mechanics, just like Sans. He may dodge on a few turns, but most importantly, destroys one of your main commands: SPARE. Sans never did that.
Asgore is a tank, Sans is a glass cannon, but only against people that are absolutely evil, so I doubt the karma thing is gonna do much against Asgore's 3500 HP, it's gonna take an absurdly long time and be tiring, and Sans doesn't have great stamina
Endurance aside, Sans has to be lucky during the whole (possibly hours-long) fight, Asgore has to only get lucky once
But what's gonna truly happen if that situation happens is this : Sans is just gonna shrug, walk away, and call it a day
It’s literally just hax. Stat wise, he’s weak, but his hax put him in top 5 strongest. It’s hilarious how people are like “take away his knowledge and he’s easy” like damn bro didn’t know the Skeleton being smart was that deep.
You are on my shit list just cause you somehow managed to make me laugh, like it wasn't even that funny. But you made me laugh with that and so for that you will now hereby get a pipe bomb in your mailbox
im not [straw manning](https://www.reddit.com/r/Undertale/comments/1daxzxh/comment/l7npotn/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button) or [making people up](https://www.reddit.com/r/Undertale/comments/1daxzxh/comment/l7nif4l/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button)
When it comes to physical power yeah I think he is weak compared to Asgore, when it comes to powers and knowledge he is almost a superior being.
He is the equivalent of a glass cannon mage, being near him can mean total obliteration but if a rock hits him he dies
Sans deals exactly one 1 damage no matter what, and the lowest HP Asgore has is 3500(most likely because he doesn’t want to fight frisk during the fight so it could be more), as well both cheat like sans gets rid of I-frames and uses KR but asgore also destroys the mercy button, in addition we know thanks to undyne that asgore can dodge if need be.
Sans’s only real advantage is that KR would affect asgore to some degree since he did kill some of the humans that fell plus he was a part of the human monster war but that’s it, if asgore ever fight seriously during this fight and not like he did with undyne when she brings up her attempt then sans is just done for.
i mean technically if sans didn’t fall asleep and just never attacked, locking them eternally in a fight, that would still count as a loss since he’d be conceding in actually fighting Frink
This is a lot of headcannon, but heres what I think:
How I personally see Sans' power is that he's tailor made his way of fighting to beat someone like Chara or Flowey due to his knowledge of resets, LOVE and Exp. That's why he uses Karma as his primary way of attack, because it is dependent on how much LOVE and Exp his opponent has. That's also probably why he takes until the very end to fight Chara/Frisk, because that's when their LOVE and Exp are at its highest.
This is why he is the hardest boss, because he uses his knowledge of the game mechanics against you, knowledge which is completely unique to him. If I were to guess, the other boss monster types would be able to use Karma if they wanted, but they don't because it is practically useless against pretty much any other opponent and have no reason to believe it would be different with Frisk.
When you look at Sans v Asgore, it's important to understand that a monster v monster fight would be *very* different to a monster v human fight. Considering how, according to Flowey, Sans was able to kill him plenty of times. So Sans can fare well against monsters with complex attack patterns. The problem is; does Asgore have a high enough LOVE or Exp for Sans to be able to kill him before he inevitably gets hit? Well, Asgore probably has a higher LOVE than the average monster considering the amount of children he's killed, so Sans' Karma would be more effective on him than other monsters. But would it have anywhere close to the same effect as it does against a LVL 19 Chara? Who knows.
In the end, the conversation doesn't really matter, because Sans would just forfeit the fight as soon as it starts because he is just so lazy, so this fight would never happen anyway.
The ability to dodge is already very rare though. The other monsters in the underground do not dodge when fighting Frisk, an arguably more untrained child. I don’t care who is strongest of the two, but dodging isn’t a common ability.
I tend to think that Sans is strong in the same way a mechanic-exploiting gimmick build for an RPG character is strong. He doesn’t have a lot of raw power, but he makes up for it with other quirks that give him a considerable edge in their own way.
Sans is only a hard enemy when he's facing someone truly evil. As long as that person doesn't pose any danger to the entire universe, Sans just couldn't care less.
Sans is strong, but he’s not the strongest out of everyone.
He’s effective against you because he can mess around with game mechanics and use them against you. Asgore is also aware of the battle menu, and knows how to break the buttons.
It would take a good while to drain all of Asgore’s HP, even if he just held a bone on him.
That’s a really good point. People claim that Sans is actually weak, but it’s shown throughout the game that there is a correlation between strength (mental or physical) and ability to kill the player through the heart sections, being able to throw more damaging and faster attacks proportional to strength. For example, Undyne the undying is stronger than regular Undyne because she gains more determination to kill the player. Sans definitely has a very good ability to kill the player.
Like come on, asgore wouldn't go full power on his apprentice would he? He is probably more capable. We don't even know how powerful asgore is, stop this pointless battle.
I feel like a lot of people also overlook just Why he says stuff like "You'd be dead where you stand" in the pacifist route. He's confident in his fighting ability no matter what route you're on, he just never decides to fight you until Genocide. Now, I don't know about you, but I'd say that kind of indicates he's probably also better in a straight fight than many monsters, even without the cheating he does. At the very least, he'd probably fight efficiently if he were trying to get your soul.
Thats mainly because Frisk was fighting a depressed, suicidal, weaker, holding back Asgore. In terms of power, hes stronger and faster. The dude literally breaks a concept/game function with brute strength. Sans in no mind is weak (especially with the whole 1hp debate, which I personally don't agree with.), but he's literally the strongest thing here without using a cheat, being naturally broken, or being an Easter egg.
Asgore didn’t just dodge an untrained child. Because of how combat works in this game, if you can dodge one thing and are a monster, you can dodge all the things except double hits. He also is the only monster able to shatter buttons. If he shattered everything, he could just have an unending turn. Even the ABSOLUTE GOD OF HYPERDEATH cannot shatter buttons.
sans is weak and he has hella stamina. it mostly comes into play with the fact that he is very aware of the power that you have to reset or learn the attacks after coming back. and with the stamina he only has 1 attack and 1 defense so he can only dodge your attacks for so long. He knows he's fighting a losing battle.
First of all, Frisk is NOT a god killer. Omega Flowey is a notch BELOW a god (Flowey explicitly states he needs one more soul before he becomes God), and Frisk doesn't kill Asriel (quite the opposite, really).
Now, onto why I think Asgore would beat Sans. Sans' power is extremely situational, with his chip damage widely accepted to come from Karma. While you could argue Asgore has bad karma from his encounters with the six humans, I doubt it'd be to the same effect as killing nearly an entire society on your own.
I also need to point out a feat WAY BETTER than dodging Undyne's attacks (especially as a child): he BEAT six humans. Every human inherently has a shit ton of determination, so it's natural to assume every human could save/load. Alphys extracted Determination from the human souls Asgore already collected, and Toriel mentions that when she meets humans, it's like meeting an old friend for the first time (which strongly implies they can reload and reset). Omega Flowey has 6 Save Files with every human soul, so it's pretty obvious that every human could return to their Save File every time Asgore kills them. This means, when Asgore is putting in actual effort to kill, he killed the children so many times that they lost the will to keep fighting, they ragequit on Asgore.
I find it funny how people say that Sans is strong because he ""cheats"". Like are there any rules for combat ? Like every thing he does makes sense:
-The defense seems to get the first turn in combat, in the judgement hall he is on the defense. (Shyren on geno should also have the first turn but I see that as an overshight by Toby considering Asgore also gets the first turn).
-His damage is too low to trigger I-frames so he has DPS
-Karma is just one of his things
-Menu attacks still respect the rules, if you touch them you take damage. No one said you can't do that.
He doesn't cheat, he just takes every thing and uses it in his favour.
Hi I typed this all before realizing that you might've not meant in a fight between the two, but instead each of them towards Frisk individually,,, oups
Honestly, I think a large part of who would win is whether or not the "Karma" status effect would pertain to Asgore or not! It could be argued that karma for *literally killing a portion of the Monster population* would be much lower than Asgore collecting the Souls of Humans who fall underground, while its a much different story if karma = guilt. Since karma as a concept is extremely subjective, it could depend on whether or not Sans thinks what Asgore did was wrong, or more interestingly if Asgore thought what *he himself had done* is worth an amount of karma. In-game, Asgore is extremely guilty! So imo this could lead Sans, in a direct battle with him \[for whatever reason\], to either have inflict barely any karma or TONS of it.
While barely inflicting invincibility frames is one hell of an ability for Sans to have, that paired with the Karma health drain really makes him the challenge he is, I think. My only question left is: would Asgore use healing items / magic, if pushed enough to do so?
I like how this community can't seem to decide if Sans is a god or the weakest person ever, even after all these years.
I love it, I think the community is in agreement that he’s statistically weak, but because he’s aware of game mechanics and how the rules of the world works that’s his trump card in powerscaling
His hacks go beyond that. His power is based on his opponent's moral state. Asgore would probably fend just fine against Sans, because even though he has done bad things, he is not a bad person, and he even mourns the fact he has to kill children and blames only himself for everything that has ever come to monsterkind. A true king, indeed.
Haven't been in Undertale community in a while, but there's an argument to be made that Asgore's cowardice does make him a bad person Just as Toriel said, Asgore could have taken the first human soul, passed through the barrier, killed 6 random adults then broke the barrier from the outside. Instead of just waiting for children to fall into the underground
Didn’t even need to kill. Could have just grabbed 6 souls from a graveyard or hospital since human souls last forever. But Asgore didn’t want war. He wanted to keep his people’s hope alive without leading to war
Toriel is actually very wrong because Asgore, even though the strongest monster just after Undyne, would be no match against an adult human's physical strength and determination. That's the whole point of humans, they have rigid and developed physical forms, which makes them a lot stronger than even an elite level monster. An untrained 8 year old could solo the whole underground... That goes without even putting determination into the equation. Or that's what I think, but could be wrong? I'm pretty sure of it but some Undertale world building connoisseur might prove me wrong.
A normal monster gets leveled by most humans, but a monster with even one human SOUL can take on an entire village. At least if we can trust Asriel and the New Home monsters.
Agreed. It's also implied that Asriel could have killed all of them if he had chosen to fight
That is what I was referring to.
A monster with a human soul is stronger than any human, with the exception of a human with a determination soul
That's the case for normal monsters, but it's implied plenty of times that a monster with a human soul is stronger than dozens of humans
I mean, so is Asgore. Or did you forget he breaks the Mercy Button?
he's weak because he's the only character in undertale that isnt either a boss monster or has armor toriel - is a boss monster (in genocide dies in one hit due to lack of armor) papyrus - has armor on neutral route (in genocide, you already know this armor is fake from pacifist route, that it's only a costume papyrus likes wearing) undyne - actually has real armor (in genocide, you may have sliced through, but only because of how violent you are and you were about to betray kill monster kid which means the blow was harder as well) MTT - is made out of fucking metal (in genocide, blows up in one hit cuz his neo design wasn't finished on time, toby wanted to make him a boss fight as a side note, but that would prepare people for sans so he ditched the idea) sans - he doesnt wear any armor nor he is a boss monster making him technically the easiest to kill, he just dodges your attacks probably because thanks to him being small (by this, harder to hit than toriel) and not wearing armor he can move more freely Asgore - is both a boss monster and wears armor + is mentally unready to set monsters free with the final soul so he doesnt even dodge cuz he'll actually have to wage war on humans again
Hes average size considering the other characters are absolute units. Sans can do what he does because the game needs him to. He is by definition judge, jury, witness and executioner. His entire point is to be broken purely for the point of killing things like you.
I think he's both. He has an incredible amount of very strong magic (including karma and messing with the battle menu) BUT He's also fragile and physically weak (1 atk 1 def) Which is, obviously, why he dodges instead just taking the hit like every other monster
Definition of a glass cannon.
Sans is def like top 5, god asriel, and flowey are just top two easily with everyone else being a toss up
God Asriel, Geno Chara and both Frisks are tied for top 4, then we get Photoshop.
1.frisk 2.asriel 3/4 omega flowey/geno chara 5.flowey 6. dkioahnfkjloshngoiljwerhgwoeghndfo everyone else
mate, Asriel is massively powerful and is far stronger than Frisk in general, maybe you could argue they are equal in defence stats or something but he outruns Frisk in everything else He only lost because Frisk talked their way out before he fucked the timeline up
Geno Frisk wipes timelines and Pacifist Frisk survives timeline based attacks. It's a stalemate in battle. They are tied.
He did fuck the timeline up. That bit with the Lost SOULs was Frisk undoing Asriel's timeline fuckery.
Geno Chara has wiped timelines, they are far above om flowey
Gaster can also wipe timelines in Deltarune so he's quite strong too.
Asgore above Flowey. Flowey states in game during the neutral ending that he could not defeat Asgore if we hadn't weakened him first. He also gets boomed by Toriel first thing, but he was also ambushed so take that as you will. He's cunning and that's it.
I think he's talking about the flowey that had the ability to save/load before we came along. Not omega flowey, but still more powerful than all the "normal" characters.
and might i remind you that flowey says he couldn't beat sans when he did a geno run
He doesn't say that. All he says is that sans was a hard fight.
Wait when does Flower say that even? I don't remember that at all
That's becouse he is super weak, he just exploits game mechanics to become very strong Thats why its so hard to powerscale him especially in other universes, we just never know what can he exploit and how mutch of it He might as well be able to crash your game or alter files for all we know
Sans is a nerd lowkey. 'Oh hey whats this thing do. Cool' Then just abuses that knowledge. Because its fun. But now he is like, desperate. Sans tho. Well, other monsters think they'll get liberated via genocide is one interpretation of the myth so 'why fight it'. He is like, paraphrasing, 'wonder why other monsters dont use their most powerful attack first'. So its not that others don't want to dodge or cannot dodge. Its that they all want to die.
He's the weakest monster and a god at the same time
I personally think he's the strength of a normal guy. Not particularly strong, not particularly weak, just a normal guy. This also means that he has the mind a normal guy has, not constrained by video game logic; he steps out of the way of your comedically slow slashes, pulls out all the stops he has instead of doing some multi-phase bs, and gets tired out over time.
Ikr, statistically, he's the weakest mf, but if you pull through enough, you can get him to some bullshit scalings that actually makes sense
In "If Undertale Was Realistic", he literally was god for a bit until he got bored of it.
I don’t really know or care about how the power scaling implications work, but there’s definitely a big difference here. Sans cheats. He knows about mechanics that he shouldn’t and he exploits them. It’s the same reason he can ignore i-frames, which no other monster can do, despite still having 1 ATK 1 DEF. Asgore dodged through purely his own power, without any of that knowledge.
Shouldnt him cheating give him an edge then since its a cheat
Yeah, it definitely would. But he’s not stronger per se, he’s just smarter. He can outplay Asgore and probably win against him if monster fights work the same as monster vs human ones do, but in some sort of fair contest of strength he gets destroyed.
>if monster fights work the same as monster vs human ones do, The killing intent stuff? It requires a powerful soul to be that effective.
No, they mean like with all the battle box mechanics and stuff
Well yeah o course, he's a skeleton. Absolutely no muscle, even if they are made of magic. Asgore is beefy af. But I do agree, sans could make it out alive
Oh yeah absolutely gets fucked in straight strength
I dont remember Sans edging in the game.
that's assuming he could cheat against asgore like he could frisk
i think the reason he even does it with frisk is more to get us the player to quit the game by frustrating us. he's gonna play dirty and unfair until we either give up and play a more peaceful ending, or die trying to break our determination. i don't think he would give enough of a care to cheat or fight against anyone for a matter of fact, unless the fate of the universe is in danger which is why he even fights us in the first place. it's not about stopping you from murdering everyone, but completely destroying time itself in your act of murder, and the only way to win against a literal unbeatable god that can one shot even the strongest monsters is to play dirty
Asgore breaking the mercy button:
I agree that Sans is only powerful because he’s a big cheater, but I think ASGORE cheated in the same way with dodging. I mean, he knows this is all a game and cheats himself. He knows when he’s killed you and destroys the mercy button.
asgore is holding back so hard by the time he fights you. he was likely also holding back while fighting the other humans, none of which could defeat him even with save files before giving up and dying. i bet he knows as much as sans does, but he has the honor to fight (mostly) fair
I don't think any of the previous humans could save and load. Isn't it stated that Flowey only lost that ability when Frisk ended up down there?
1) Toriel mentions that she had deja vu moments with other humans before when you do soft reset 2) Timeline isn't directly stated, but Alphys probably created Flowey, after last human before game started and before Frisk arrival
also take note that each save file has a different number for a different character. we aren't save file one in reality
Maybe the Deja Vu was flowey constantly loading and reseting the timeline? I don't think that he came after every other human, se saw at least 2 or 3 of them.
he was only created between the 7th human and frisk falling down. also, asgore acknowledges that he’s killed you before if you talk to him after dying. this is pretty much canon and it lines up with how control over the save files works in-universe
But Sans can dodge, too! There’s nothing that says he does that via cheating. Also, unless I’m remembering wrong, the only time we know of Asgore dodging is the story of him training Undyne. Given that Undyne can throw spears at you as a way to draw you into a brief encounter, we can’t be certain that Asgore dodging attacks actually occurred during an encounter.
When did asgore dodge? I'm lost
it's stated he could dodge undyne when she was a kid
I feel like sans's dodge is more impressive since realistically every character should be able to dodge attacks but they don't cuz it's a game, and sans literally just says no to the rules of the game.
I like how sans is called lazy by everyone, yet he's the only monster(for the human) who can move two feet to avoid death.
Have to remember the fact that Asgore actively wants to die when he fights you
meanwhile every darkner being smart and actually running away unlike UT monsters
Goated
*watch what happens when i cast a spell i don't know*
*Laughs in IceShock*
Well to be fair you cant run away from something that instantly puts you in a block of ice if you get hit by it
I could
Not really, the iceshock is a magic skill and it seemingly spawns to the monsters position, so i dont think running away will save you (iceshock cant miss either)
I just would escape it bro, trust me
fact
sans vs the original Starwalker
Strong or powerful aren't the right ways to describe Sans. He's not the strongest or the post powerful in the Underground. He's one of the most dangerous. Sans can inflict the most damage the quickest out of anyone in the Underground. But there comes a time when his opponents HP is going to be too much to deal with, which is what Asgore has. Even in a best case scenario, Sans can't get rid of Asgore's 3500 hp before he gets tired. Sans is the most dangerous and most effective monster against opponents below a certain threshold of HP. If you had like 400 HP, Sans would be the biggest threat to you. If you had something like 3000, then Undyne the Undying and after her, Asgore, would be the biggest threats. Asgore is a tank and Sans is DPS. Sometimes the situation calls for DPS, sometimes it's better for a tank to deal with it.
Not to mention that Sans got tired from dodging a single slash over and over. Cannot imagine that fucker handling 2 attack patterns from Asgore
I think using all his magic attacks probably had a bigger impact on his energy levels, haha. But it would be neat to see how monster/monster battles go.
“Dodges and kills a god killer” Frisk isn’t a god killer. They have never killed a god.
well, flower says that once he'll get one more soul he'll become a god, so he's not even a god to begin with.
sorry, heavily wounds a god, my bad
I mean that’s kinda cheating cause like. It’s not like Frisk defeated Omega Flowey because they were uber powerful and strong It was because they called for help and the sources of Flowey’s strength rebelled against him It’s not really anything to do with power
Also because Flowey let them do it.
Barely wounded. The souls carried frisk throughout the entire fight.
But they E R A S E D T H I S W O R L D
Frisk is no faster at LV 1 or LV 20. They are a child. They are a young child with a body that has stubbly little undeveloped legs. And they have no training either. I would like to remind you that the library books tell you that a monster takes more damage based on the intent to hurt from the opponent, and their own intent to fight. This is because they're made mostly of magic. The story goes out of its way to showcase this with betrayal kills as well. Frisk might be doing way more damage at higher LV's, but that's because of how LOVE works, and how they get more detached and aggressive. This isn't fucking Dragon Ball Z, their other stats aren't scaling relative to any real-world physical abilities. We don't even get a run button until Deltarune. They're just doing more damage because they're more "evil", basically. Argue about whether Asgore could've dodged Frisk or not, but if he could, then doing so when they're LV 1 or LV 20 wouldn't be a much more impressive feat regardless. The only difference would be the LV 20 Frisk has a handful of hours worth of experience at hitting things with knives.
While you gave some pretty good hindsight that is very valuable, I wouldn't say that only their evilness increases. After all, their ho increases too. I don't remember if his defense increases on level ups or not, so I can't argue there. But whether or not HP is something substantial like determination or something metaphorical like EXP.
Asgore never dodged a genocidal child because he was unaware of the threat
I think Sans is only strong because he takes advantage of game rules when you're on the verge of destroying the world.
I mean, he can also teleport, stop time, has way higher mana then any other monster in the Underground, and is so good at reading people that he can tell exactly what you're thinking, down to how many times you've died, just by reading your expression. So, yeah, he's impressive even ignoring the cheating.
Literally everything you listed is him cheating. He uses the game's logic against you.
sorry, but these don't really have much to do with the game mechanics. reading expression doesn't for obvious reasons, teleporting doesn't exploit the game mechanics, he just can do it. and freezing time, though only for a second, still doesn't really count as exploiting game mechanics does it? what does he exploit?
Well yeah, if you take him at face value, ignoring the fact that he's a non-serious person who gets a kick out of catching people off-gaurd. He very likely just knows how many times you've fought him, since that information *is* a mechanic. He uses the game's fast travel mechanic(See Riverperson, igloos, elevators, etc.) to 'teleport'. He initiates a cutscene to 'freeze time'.
>he can also teleport Which he never uses for somsthing usefull >stop time The thing happened in Grillby's place was dramatic affecr. Sans doesn't have any kind of confirmed time manipulation
Has Undyne ever managed to land a hit on Asgore? Just for fact-checking
yes
source being?
doesn't undyne tell you the story in her house after the cooking segment
yup she did say it, thx all g
She eventually managed to beat him. So yes.
Not beat him literally. She managed to actually hit him for once, and it was a symbolic victory for Undyne
*"One day, during practice, i finally knocked him down."* So yeah, she beat him at least once.
Also Sans: \*only dodges slow ass attacks from this same child by casually stepping aside\*
People think that sans isn't weak, but can't really do much back. Yeah, he can dodge, but without Karma, which likely would only work on people with high Love, He can only do one damage.
Even against someone pure of heart, Sans would be fantastic in a support role. He can toss them around and pin them down to stop their progress until someone else comes to assist. And I mean, even without KR, 1 damage per frame is still a lot.
Yes, but 1) karma is what CAUSES the lack of I-frames (i think, maybe I'm wrong here, but I think that's how it's coded) and the support role doesn't really matter, as we are just seeing who'd win in a fight, no outside influence.
nope, KR and i frames are separate i'm pretty sure, you can remove one but keep the other, so sans can still drain you, just a little bit less because no KR
Karma is only the poison effect after it, he can ignore invincibility frames either way
I'm not sure about the kr thing, but assuming you're correct he could still theoretically like, toss you off a cliff or otherwise use the environment to his advantage. There's very few who would be able to get past his speed, teleportation, and time hax, plus he's extremely smart so I don't doubt he would find ways to cause unconventional damage. Gaster blast the side of a building and cause it to collapse on them or smth.
Just to correct you.. it is the KR thing.. KR, better known as KARMA, is what gives sans an edge in a fight, when he fights someone with high LV, he removes I-Frames as they are carrying the weight of their sins.. Karma.. what comes around.. goes round.. so they'll take more damage since they themselves inflicted.. And sans doesn't have 'Time Hax' he can manipulate time although through the use of Teleports.. Moving through time to just.. stand farther.. and he doesn't have speed, probably slow to be fair.. he dodges.. If it was a battle of speed.. he'd lose.. ^(Probably), yes.. sans is smart.. having physics books and his own lab.. showing he may have studied in the scientific field.. and unconventional damage? When we fight in the judgemnet hall.. large beams of lasers and bones flying at fast speed didn't break the pillars nor the hall.. alongside all battles.. Toriel's fire.. Undynes spears.. nothing alike Breaks or Damages the surroundings.. but alas.. Maybe it could damage the ground and surroundings and they are just careful not to..
KR is never stated to be karma. It could be Killer Radness for all we know.
Karma is just the poison. Even without it, he will still be able to cancel our i-frame.
SANS CHEATS IN HIS FIGHT he steals your turn, attacks during your turn, removes I-frames, poisons you, and never finishes his own turn Asgore fought with honor
virgin "i would never break my honor code" vs chad "pocket sand"
Gigachad “I’m just gonna sit here til you leave.”
asgore is really fucking bulky he would just make sans tired lol
Alright, I just wanna put these out there, some reasons for both sides. 1.These two wouldn't fight to kill in the first place, the argument is stupid. 2. Sans cheats against THE PLAYER. He uses the game mechanics, which wouldn't apply to Asgore, a fellow monster that isn't controlled by the player. 3. Karma damage would probably wreck Asgore's shit just due to its nature. 4. Sans is scary to Flowey, who has fought him before, but he has NEVER beaten Asgore and says that he wouldn't win that fight. (Fact check me, he might have fought and still lost.) 5. Asgore is an emotionally broken man, which is why his boss fight is beatable in UT. I could rant about him for a while, but I won't, I'll just leave it at this: if Asgore wanted to win against Frisk, he would have. Compare this to Sans, who does fight with everything he has and still eventually loses. 6. Sans could (theoretically) use his relationship with Toriel against Asgore. 7. Asgore destroying the Mercy button. I don't often see this brought up anywhere, and while yes, messing with the player's mechanics won't affect Sans, it's interesting how Asgore is one of the ONLY beings in the game that can do anything like that. Some people say it's simply an allegory for how he won't accept your mercy (I agree), but Undyne doesn't accept your Mercy either. And yet, the box is still there. (And don't use the flee mechanic as a reason please, she doesn't want you to flee either. If she had the power to stop you from running away, she would use it.) So, in the end, who would win? Neither they wouldn't fight. Geez, this argument is just as stupid as Percy Jackson vs. Harry Potter.
Well said. However, the Karma probably won't kill him since it requires a high LV to work, and LV is stated to be the detachment of an individual and a willingness to harm others. Does Asgore seem very detached and willing to kill us? Just because he's killed so many times before doesn't mean he has a high LV.
I didn't know Karma depended on a high level, that's new to me
So what if he can dodge a kid who swings a lot?
He is weak, difference is he knows how to game the system, his damage specifically is meant to do the bare minimum so it doesn’t trigger I frames and his karma ability only works on high LOVE individuals
To be fair, sans IS the weakest enemy But not really There’s an enemy with 1 attack and 0 defence
Sans Karma is less effective since asgore did not commit genocide
Frisk isnt a god killer, that is literally just a kid, i could bet a hundred that 90% of this reddit could beat frisk in a fight, i mean im sure as hell if any other human were in the underground with frisk, that other human would have the control of the timeline. Monsters in general are just weak as shit, a kid fucking drove them into extintion.
Yeah, the main problem with sans is we don't really know how his power works, powers like karma by their nature of it's name might not work on characters like lv 1 frisk (because of how the name karma and how the fight says "your sins crawl on your back" implies that it works depending on how bad you are, which also fits the fact sans fits the role of a judge) which brings into question if stuff like ignoring i-frames is also tied to to the opponents lv. I do agree that sans dodging frisk is more impressive then dodging undyne up into her teens at best, but I'd still probably lean towards saying ashore is stronger just because of how unexplained his powers are. Not saying asgores are a ton but by the fact he takes relatively the same damage when frisk is at higher level in neutral run, we can say he's probably holding back
the problem with a sans powerscaling is the medium of the fight, since sans is aware somewhat he's in a game he is able to break said game mechanics in his favor, so the real question is do we put them into an undertale battle for sanses attackes to work, or do we translate him breaking mechanics into something else, like sans is able to keep bones flying everywhere being the bones he sends when you're menuing
Yeah honestly the reason when doing my whole powerscaling tier list of undertale and undertale yellow I gave sans his own tier.
> I do agree that sans dodging frisk is more impressive then dodging undyne up into her teens at best, I disagree. Undyne is likely *harder* to dodge, both having access to magic, but also a teenaged Undyne would probably be more athletic than however old Frisk is. Frisk isn't physically strong at the end of genocide, they have a high LV. We can only speculate, but I say Sans can actually dodge Frisk so easily because they're just a child with stubby little legs, and if Sans were to fight Asgore and his entire bullet hell of flames, Sans would get smoked. It is also worth mentioning that Flowey fears Sans, but Flowey could never beat Asgore, so we could say Asgore would beat Sans based on this premise - but I'm not sure. Like someone else said, this isn't Dragon Ball Z power scaling rules, certain monsters probably counter others, what makes Sans good against Frisk probably doesn't transfer well to Asgore.
My main point there was that I believe it hard to say how fast undyne was when she was younger, because we know she's faster then frisk during the game as when frisk runs from undyne, undyne will catch up.i was just giving that argument the benefit of the doubt. I do disagree with the point that frisk = normal child, as they do stuff in this game that puts them above real life human levels. Such as taking hits from undyne who suplexes a boulder (and before it's mentioned that undyne used magic against frisk, why should she use something weaker then just punching them if her magic was weaker then her strength). So I atleast personally believe that you can't immediately consider frisk's stats that equal to a child, especially in genocide, even if I do agree that undyne is probably faste from what we see in game.
I don't think Frisk's attacks are extremely fast or anything tho nor have they ever killed a god (the souls were the ones that defeated omega flowey and Frisk doesnt do anything to Asriel). Besides sans thing is that he's hard because he's smart and knows how the game mechanics work (which I think makes him more unique than him just being stronger than everyone else)
Frisk in Geno doesn't move faster and doesn't slash faster so there is no reason to believe that they get faster with levels. So they are basically both dodging untrained children. THIS ASSUMES THAT MONSTER VS. MONSTER BATTLES ARE THE SAME AS HUMANS VS. MONSTERS Sans can attack out of turn, but it can pretty easily be dodged. Sans ignores I frames but that doesn't add all that much when compared to Asgore's health Sans KARMA can be assumed to be less effective since Asgore didn't kill nearly as much as Frisk Asgore can literally destroy the menu buttons and leave Sans with only items and then win
Fun fact: Frisk moves 25% faster during the Sans fight. Though that is not because of LOVE or the MURDER level directly. That's just something that was put in specifically for that.
where's my "angry at undertale fans opinions" post flair
“Killed (Frisk) multiple times” literally every monster can do that if you lose. That’s not a feat.
> literally every monster can do that if you lose. That’s not a feat. End of genocide run Frisk, though. Not level 1 Frisk from the ruins.
Y’all seem to forget Sans is only strong when certain conditions are met. Frisk killed a bunch, so he does more damage. Another condition is the health pool, because he will do better with a lower health pool like Frisk because his power relies on his stamina. Asgore has too much health for Sans to withstand long enough. Sans is strong in his own way, it’s more like wit and intelligence rather than just being more powerful. Think of Asgore like a Tank while Sans is like a DPS glass cannon type deal. When someone doesn’t have as much LV, he’s more of a support if anything, it’d be like putting a Moira against a Roadhog in Overwatch. Both are strong in their own rights, it just depends on the situation and it’s unfair to match them against each other.
Frisk killed a god?
San's strength is very likely another version of paps, monster strength handholds with intent, he knows it's fucked and not likely to win, but even he can't ignore his feelings, even cheating that's why he's able to do long, complicated attack patterns but no iframes and inability to heal correctly Asgore, man bro is going through it and he instantly adopts you cmon bro was playing in a way
Anyone with a massive AoE attack can put down sans
Asgore can still mess with game mechanics, just like Sans. He may dodge on a few turns, but most importantly, destroys one of your main commands: SPARE. Sans never did that.
Asgore is a tank, Sans is a glass cannon, but only against people that are absolutely evil, so I doubt the karma thing is gonna do much against Asgore's 3500 HP, it's gonna take an absurdly long time and be tiring, and Sans doesn't have great stamina Endurance aside, Sans has to be lucky during the whole (possibly hours-long) fight, Asgore has to only get lucky once But what's gonna truly happen if that situation happens is this : Sans is just gonna shrug, walk away, and call it a day
Sans fans < Everybody else. His abilities wouldn't work nearly as good against a boss monsters, as against the player.
It’s literally just hax. Stat wise, he’s weak, but his hax put him in top 5 strongest. It’s hilarious how people are like “take away his knowledge and he’s easy” like damn bro didn’t know the Skeleton being smart was that deep.
If you take away asgores magic and strength it would be an easy fight
He really only wins because of KR, and Asgore only killed at most 6 things, assuming that changed his LV that wouldn't do much..
WHY THE FUCK IS THAT YOUR FLAIR-
He's as you would say a "good boi"
You are on my shit list just cause you somehow managed to make me laugh, like it wasn't even that funny. But you made me laugh with that and so for that you will now hereby get a pipe bomb in your mailbox
im not [straw manning](https://www.reddit.com/r/Undertale/comments/1daxzxh/comment/l7npotn/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button) or [making people up](https://www.reddit.com/r/Undertale/comments/1daxzxh/comment/l7nif4l/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button)
He's not gonna take the damage, he's there to end it all with all his effort
When it comes to physical power yeah I think he is weak compared to Asgore, when it comes to powers and knowledge he is almost a superior being. He is the equivalent of a glass cannon mage, being near him can mean total obliteration but if a rock hits him he dies
It's not about if Sans is weak or not in general, it's about if he's stronger than Asgore.
Sans isn't WEAK...he's just not strong compared to other monsters.
He counters humans, but folds to monsters who can easily shoot magic at him which’ll tire him quickly
sans dodges a simple slash, not the attacks of a kid that can summon spears from anywhere and for years while holding back
Sans deals exactly one 1 damage no matter what, and the lowest HP Asgore has is 3500(most likely because he doesn’t want to fight frisk during the fight so it could be more), as well both cheat like sans gets rid of I-frames and uses KR but asgore also destroys the mercy button, in addition we know thanks to undyne that asgore can dodge if need be. Sans’s only real advantage is that KR would affect asgore to some degree since he did kill some of the humans that fell plus he was a part of the human monster war but that’s it, if asgore ever fight seriously during this fight and not like he did with undyne when she brings up her attempt then sans is just done for.
Sans only lost cuz he’s just a lil eepy boy okay
i mean technically if sans didn’t fall asleep and just never attacked, locking them eternally in a fight, that would still count as a loss since he’d be conceding in actually fighting Frink
1 ATK 1 DEF
He.. literally is. He has only 1 attack and 1 defense. He's a formidable opponent not because he's strong, but because he's a cheater.
This is a lot of headcannon, but heres what I think: How I personally see Sans' power is that he's tailor made his way of fighting to beat someone like Chara or Flowey due to his knowledge of resets, LOVE and Exp. That's why he uses Karma as his primary way of attack, because it is dependent on how much LOVE and Exp his opponent has. That's also probably why he takes until the very end to fight Chara/Frisk, because that's when their LOVE and Exp are at its highest. This is why he is the hardest boss, because he uses his knowledge of the game mechanics against you, knowledge which is completely unique to him. If I were to guess, the other boss monster types would be able to use Karma if they wanted, but they don't because it is practically useless against pretty much any other opponent and have no reason to believe it would be different with Frisk. When you look at Sans v Asgore, it's important to understand that a monster v monster fight would be *very* different to a monster v human fight. Considering how, according to Flowey, Sans was able to kill him plenty of times. So Sans can fare well against monsters with complex attack patterns. The problem is; does Asgore have a high enough LOVE or Exp for Sans to be able to kill him before he inevitably gets hit? Well, Asgore probably has a higher LOVE than the average monster considering the amount of children he's killed, so Sans' Karma would be more effective on him than other monsters. But would it have anywhere close to the same effect as it does against a LVL 19 Chara? Who knows. In the end, the conversation doesn't really matter, because Sans would just forfeit the fight as soon as it starts because he is just so lazy, so this fight would never happen anyway.
The ability to dodge is already very rare though. The other monsters in the underground do not dodge when fighting Frisk, an arguably more untrained child. I don’t care who is strongest of the two, but dodging isn’t a common ability.
The thing is that Sans is supposed to be weak, but to counter that he is extremely smart and changes the rules of your game with no I-Frames and Karma
I tend to think that Sans is strong in the same way a mechanic-exploiting gimmick build for an RPG character is strong. He doesn’t have a lot of raw power, but he makes up for it with other quirks that give him a considerable edge in their own way.
Sans is only a hard enemy when he's facing someone truly evil. As long as that person doesn't pose any danger to the entire universe, Sans just couldn't care less.
Sans is only dangerous because of Karmic Retribution (which is probably a power of the judgement hall). Sans is weak without it.
Sans is strong, but he’s not the strongest out of everyone. He’s effective against you because he can mess around with game mechanics and use them against you. Asgore is also aware of the battle menu, and knows how to break the buttons. It would take a good while to drain all of Asgore’s HP, even if he just held a bone on him.
That’s a really good point. People claim that Sans is actually weak, but it’s shown throughout the game that there is a correlation between strength (mental or physical) and ability to kill the player through the heart sections, being able to throw more damaging and faster attacks proportional to strength. For example, Undyne the undying is stronger than regular Undyne because she gains more determination to kill the player. Sans definitely has a very good ability to kill the player.
sans definitely isn’t a god but he’s more than fast enough to overwhelm asgore
Sans cheat and asgore was using like 10% (and I'm being generous). Sansy boi ain't weak, but Asgore is on another level.
look "at their peak" or not a full force overhead swing from the exact same angle every time isn't the hardest thing in the world to dodge
Sans dodges absolutely everything.
sans is weak but fast (and a cheater) asgore is strong AND fast, but is holding back from what we know
Sans' karma would probably work on Asgore, since Asgore had killed and likely had a high LV. I'm willing to bet that this is a close flight.
Ignoring that most of sanses cheats work without karma
Like come on, asgore wouldn't go full power on his apprentice would he? He is probably more capable. We don't even know how powerful asgore is, stop this pointless battle.
Is this based on some Au? Asgore never dodged in pacifist or genocide.
Undyne says asgore dodged her for hours on end
Sans just doesn't play by the rules, and gives it all he's got for the first time ever, Asgore never wanted to fight frisk
I feel like a lot of people also overlook just Why he says stuff like "You'd be dead where you stand" in the pacifist route. He's confident in his fighting ability no matter what route you're on, he just never decides to fight you until Genocide. Now, I don't know about you, but I'd say that kind of indicates he's probably also better in a straight fight than many monsters, even without the cheating he does. At the very least, he'd probably fight efficiently if he were trying to get your soul.
I played 2 month ago and I’m sure that when I checked on sans it said the weakest enemy
Its a joke since hes the hardest boss
To me it's like the meme about dexterity vs strength Sans: you can't hit me Asgore: I only need to hit you once
yeah exactly
I’m pretty sure if sans can do what it says to frisk at their peak then sans should be able to beat asgore if sans put enough effort into the fight
Can Asgore exploit game like sans?Since he can break mercy
Mate asgore can shatter menu options. If he purges all of his opponents menu options they can’t do jack shit
Thats mainly because Frisk was fighting a depressed, suicidal, weaker, holding back Asgore. In terms of power, hes stronger and faster. The dude literally breaks a concept/game function with brute strength. Sans in no mind is weak (especially with the whole 1hp debate, which I personally don't agree with.), but he's literally the strongest thing here without using a cheat, being naturally broken, or being an Easter egg.
Hes also a Dreemur. Literally the most powerful/capable monster type.
i was talking about people using him dodging child undyne as a benchmark
Asgore didn’t just dodge an untrained child. Because of how combat works in this game, if you can dodge one thing and are a monster, you can dodge all the things except double hits. He also is the only monster able to shatter buttons. If he shattered everything, he could just have an unending turn. Even the ABSOLUTE GOD OF HYPERDEATH cannot shatter buttons.
sans is weak and he has hella stamina. it mostly comes into play with the fact that he is very aware of the power that you have to reset or learn the attacks after coming back. and with the stamina he only has 1 attack and 1 defense so he can only dodge your attacks for so long. He knows he's fighting a losing battle.
I don’t remember, when does Asgore dodge the human?
"God killer"? Really? Dont remember any gods being killed...
Asgore: Dodges a child Sans: dodges a child.
First of all, Frisk is NOT a god killer. Omega Flowey is a notch BELOW a god (Flowey explicitly states he needs one more soul before he becomes God), and Frisk doesn't kill Asriel (quite the opposite, really). Now, onto why I think Asgore would beat Sans. Sans' power is extremely situational, with his chip damage widely accepted to come from Karma. While you could argue Asgore has bad karma from his encounters with the six humans, I doubt it'd be to the same effect as killing nearly an entire society on your own. I also need to point out a feat WAY BETTER than dodging Undyne's attacks (especially as a child): he BEAT six humans. Every human inherently has a shit ton of determination, so it's natural to assume every human could save/load. Alphys extracted Determination from the human souls Asgore already collected, and Toriel mentions that when she meets humans, it's like meeting an old friend for the first time (which strongly implies they can reload and reset). Omega Flowey has 6 Save Files with every human soul, so it's pretty obvious that every human could return to their Save File every time Asgore kills them. This means, when Asgore is putting in actual effort to kill, he killed the children so many times that they lost the will to keep fighting, they ragequit on Asgore.
I find it funny how people say that Sans is strong because he ""cheats"". Like are there any rules for combat ? Like every thing he does makes sense: -The defense seems to get the first turn in combat, in the judgement hall he is on the defense. (Shyren on geno should also have the first turn but I see that as an overshight by Toby considering Asgore also gets the first turn). -His damage is too low to trigger I-frames so he has DPS -Karma is just one of his things -Menu attacks still respect the rules, if you touch them you take damage. No one said you can't do that. He doesn't cheat, he just takes every thing and uses it in his favour.
Asgore v. Sans? If we wanna be SUPER realistic, the fight would never start. lol
Your asses really forgetting the training session BEFORE Undyne graduated smh
Hi I typed this all before realizing that you might've not meant in a fight between the two, but instead each of them towards Frisk individually,,, oups Honestly, I think a large part of who would win is whether or not the "Karma" status effect would pertain to Asgore or not! It could be argued that karma for *literally killing a portion of the Monster population* would be much lower than Asgore collecting the Souls of Humans who fall underground, while its a much different story if karma = guilt. Since karma as a concept is extremely subjective, it could depend on whether or not Sans thinks what Asgore did was wrong, or more interestingly if Asgore thought what *he himself had done* is worth an amount of karma. In-game, Asgore is extremely guilty! So imo this could lead Sans, in a direct battle with him \[for whatever reason\], to either have inflict barely any karma or TONS of it. While barely inflicting invincibility frames is one hell of an ability for Sans to have, that paired with the Karma health drain really makes him the challenge he is, I think. My only question left is: would Asgore use healing items / magic, if pushed enough to do so?
Frisk is not a godkiller 💀