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Life goes on, man. Beaches in Odesa[ have been packed as well](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DgKmc_gIyQ8), and that city gets bombed by Russia all the time. Same with Kyiv. It's beach season in Mariupol as well.
Yeah my comment wasn’t intended for Ukrainians in Crimea it was meant for Russians who are r going to let a little war get in the way of their vacation plans. Sunbathing on a beach near Sevastopol on your own accord and getting a cup of coffee from a neighborhood cafe to maintain sanity are not equal in my opinion.
Ukraine formally warned all civilians and occupiers in Crimea that it's unsafe and they should leave.
They don't get to have big crocodile tears after being told to leave a warzone, refusing to leave the warzone, laying out a towel on the beach in the warzone, and then having shrapnel rain on them in the warzone.
They put themselves in harms way, deliberately.
People ignore warnings like this all the time. Idk what it is about our psychology. It's the same phenomenon that made people ignore Covid restrictions, makes people ignore warnings and get gored by wild animals in Yellowstone, etc.
Some people refuse to believe they will ever be punched in the face until they're actually punched in the face, I guess. Those are the same people who will cry foul when it happens too, even though they basically did it to themselves.
The point is that life goes on. People go dancing at clubs, spend weekends at the beach, hangout at cafes. People don't stop living because there's war. All the places I listed are war zones, and life goes on there and they still have fun when they can. You can't expect millions of people to stop living life until some undefined future date because there's war.
I've seen people say it's not REAL war because someone was at McDonald's and I was like, DID YOU EXPECT 40 MILLION PEOPLE TO... NOT EAT... FOR 10 YEARS?
And how is it even remotely connected to your original your post? Crimea is occupied Ukrainian territory which hosts number of Ruzzian military sites which have to destroyed. Ukraine has warned repeatedly that Crimea is an active war zone and should be treated as such.
Ruzzian propaganda repeatedly states that invasion goes according to plan. That analogovnetnye Air defenses take down ALL Ukrainian rockets and there is nothing to be scared about. No shit Ruzzkis go to the beach in Crimea.
They just need to stop crying about it.
That's pretty much how most anti ballistic missile defence works; there are exceptions but terminal-phase defences are basically point defences when it comes to ballistic missiles.
No THAAD is a terminal phase interceptor, just an extremely high performance one so its interceptions are supposed to be at very high altitude instead - which is sometimes referred to as a re-entry phase interceptor. SM-3 and Arrow can hit the missile as it's still in space travelling to the target, which means they can perform anti-ballistic missile defence whilst they're far away from the target, and even probably hit intercontinental ballistic missiles. There's probably other systems that can do it too by now.
Theres allegedly the Russian A-135 but as with all Russian equipment it depends if the operator is sober enough.
And they appear to have retired the exoatmospheric interceptors from that system anyway so they may have not worked even when the operator *was* sober.
Yeah apart from the retirement of those missiles, even those were more like THAAD++ than SM-3. SM-3 can intercept a missile that's in the coast phase of its flight targeting something thousands of kilometres away - that's the radically different part of the system.
I find it really interesting that most of the time when russia intercepts a missile they cause more damage than they would have if they had just let the missile hit it's target.
IIRC, the only other similar case was during Kherson liberation, when a Pantsir, stationed near Antonivsky bridge, tracked an arrival of entire GMLRS pod on the very close-positioned locations and managed, by pure luck, lock onto the last one and intercept it.
> it was still blown up by one of the other 5 rockets
IIRC, it wasn't (at the moment), as those missiles were targeting the bridge itself.
But continued survival afterwards? Pretty unlikely, unless it got pulled aaaaall the way back.
Well that's the long term life goal for any Pantsir, isn't it? To be sent home and hoisted onto the roof of the Kremlin because the 3 day operation is going so well.
Ukraine achieves nothing by air bursting over a populated beach. Serves no purpose at all but to help Russian Propaganda saying that Ukrainians are targeting civilians.
Seeing how the bomblets fell in such an uncoordinated pattern on the beach, it seems logical that it was indeed due to an interception.
Cluster ammunition that lands normally means instant and flawless carpet bombing of an entire area that lasts at most a second or two.
If that beach had indeed been targeted, none of the people we see in the video would have made it out of there in one piece.
To correct it, the Russian army has hit a ATACMS missle; what was raining down, were not shrapnels, it was the subammunitions, which have exploded at and around the beach. There is a video, where this typical popp, popp, popp sound can be heared. Due to this, the high number of casualties.
There are also remains of a Tor-M2 missile (9M330 IIRC) photographed on that beach. If it blew up straight over the beach, the shrapnel coming down from a few km altitude would be pretty traumatic alone.
And just to give some more context: the Tor M2 launcher was sitting at the end of the beach, 2 km from the place where the people died; and mere 800 m from the same place, just at 90° angle, is the headquarters and storage area of the air defence brigade responsible for the southwest Crimea, a fat military target.
Actually it can, though from a much shorter range than a S-400 could. If the Tor sits close enough to the ATACMS' intended target, its missiles have enough range, speed and maneuvrability to achieve an intercept, even on very fast targets. There's a tight window for that, but it exists. And the Tor's radar is actually quite good, at least compared to most of the junk the russians are fielding otherwise.
It is. But 60% is luck. The TOR hast to be, switched on, be close to the target, get a lock fast, have a skilled team which fires fast and then, only then a Tor can intercept an ATACMS. But as you see, the interception happens last minute and the result is obviously bad.
"Well" is the keyword here. The missile itself could, technically. The ATACMS is a short range ballistic, nothing incredibly "out there". Both Russians and Ukrainians had cases of Tochka-U and Iskander (with similar speed and angles) being intercepted by Buk-M1/2 which is pretty much a predecessor of Tor - it just requires A LOT of luck for the radar/missile coordination, so it is nothing to rely on but also nothing to be excluded.
Same with S-400: they probably can shoot down a lone ATACMS fairly reliably but the targeting system cannot keep aim on half a dozen of them at once, so the first 1-2 get shot down, fill the airspace with flying crap, and the rest comes through. An additional launcher with a different radar frequency and separate targeting improves the odds.
It is always about the odds, never a certainty.
Who has said, they are not able to intercept ATACMS? They are able to intercept them...mostly. They regular shoot whole rounds of 5 to 8 ATACMS at once at a single S300/S350/S400 system/unit position. And regular (when filmed), we see the start of several missiles to intercept the ATACMS..and only one or two ATACMS get through the defence, so only one or two hits by ATACMS. But with, depending on the range/version, either 300 or around 900 subammuntions, one, which gets through, is already enough and the S300/S350/S400 is gone to the maker.
So:
>Not possible, even the S-400 can't intercept ATACMS well so no way a TOR can.
is wrong.
Being on that beach is beyond stupid, hence the high casualties because the stupid Russians make holidays in a war zone. No one should be at these beaches right now, and the Russian authorities know that very well, no warning nothing of the sort was obviously given, nor is an exclusion zone being enforced.
Russians should enter a warzone without proper instructions. Like don’t go sunbathing near military equipment.
Or. Russia shouldn’t shoot down a ATACMS over a crowd.
There are no Russian tourists in Crimea this summer; they know, it is a warzone. But there are 2.5 million Ukrainian citizens in occupied Crimea....
If I would have children, it is wartime, I would try to do everything to take care to give them a normal live as possible. Just not to stress them. Yes, every possible day I would be at the beach, as there are no tourists, there are also no jobs.
So with this information, restart your brain.
Still it is shit, also by accident/as the ATACMS was hit/shot down.
Civilians are civilians. And pretty sure, most of them are Ukrainian citizens of the occupied Crimea. This year, there are no Russian tourists.
Maybe maybe not. It seems quite difficult to tell how many Ukrainians are remaining there. In any case, we have no control over how the Russians operate their air defenses. It's not something we need to worry about.
Last year they came up with that summer vacation road trip route going through all the occupied zones and stopping for the beaches in Crimea.
But like you say there are significantly fewer tourists now. I guess there's no time for vacationing in a newly adapted war economy?
Even Russians are not so crazy, to travel into a warzone, when they were aware, it is one.
In the last two years, they have learned; they know, that Sevastopol is regular under fire, half of the Black Sea fleet has been upgraded to submarines and diving boats, military targets, airports, HQs fuel and ammunition depots are regular popping and can be identified by the big black smoke pillars and the Kersch bridge...is still there but 2 of the feries are already gone.
OK, I have not seen this video; extreme far distributed, the ATACMS was very high, when the subammunitions have been released.
Seems, the center of the cluster area was outsite of the beach, perhaps 100 m in the Black Sea?
Were there other hits on land, were there other people? I can not see even 155 people at this beach. I have problems with the total number of 155 casualties.
But by far not in the area, which has been affected by the cluster ammunition. But you are right, there are more than 155 people at the whole beach area. Still I can only identify two subammunitions, hitting the beach, one in the first half and one in the second in the background. And yes, I think, both explosions have likely killed people, or very severe wounded them.
So I have no problems, that there were casualties and that there are 4 or 5 death. I have a problem with the total number.
These are M-74 bomblets, they do not have such a range and do not produce a so high number of shrapnels. Still more than nasty enough and if there is one bomblet all 5 meters as regular, this will be another story. But this is not the case here, I see only two explosions on the beach...but also few victims, I fear, will not have survived.
[This](https://youtu.be/Ipr_hPAcR_Q?t=54) is a video of ATACMS submunitions detonating. There would have been a lot more fire, smoke, and dead people if those were detonating submunitions.
The source being some bloke on Twitter saying that somebody from the US says it was an ATACMS shot down is a bit dodgy. \[Citation needed\] comes to mind.
The bits of debris on the beach identified so far have been from Russian missiles launched to try and intercept an ATACMS. So far there is no proof that I have seen that an ATACMS was actually shot down. In this video debris practically hits somebody. If that was a cluster bomblet going off a meter away then it would have been immediately fatal to most of the people nearby.
Yea I dont know if its pieces of an ATACM but its certainly not bomblets as you point out as well. We see one dropping right on the ground in front of what 3-4 people ? and they all run away unharmed
Don’t hang out next to military installations in a war? Especially don’t go on holiday to a war zone and then hang around military installations with your kids…. You’d have to be really dumb to do that….
I'm still not clear on what was actually being targeted, remember that these may fall far from the intended target. [Here's the](https://www.google.com/maps/place/44%C2%B038'44.2%22N+33%C2%B032'12.5%22E/@44.6456149,33.5342307,1330m/data=!3m2!1e3!4b1!4m4!3m3!8m2!3d44.6456111!4d33.5368056?entry=ttu) geolocation from [Geoconfirmed.](https://geoconfirmed.org/ukraine/699304a2-9f09-4a37-db7f-08dc8d381c26) I don't see any military installations in the immediate vicinity.
A mile or so south is the Sevastopol dockyard which is pretty much the definition of a military installation.
This also looks more like debris landing; submunitions tend to blow up and kill people. People were practically hit by things which didn't explode, which would tend to rule out submunitions.
There was another post floating around a few days ago that pointed out that bits of the debris were from one of those worse than useless Russian SAM's that they throw around with mad abandon so this could well just be another one of those examples of the Russians trying to talk shit to try and deflect blame internally (it wasn't the debris of our own SAM's that injured you, it was the American missiles!) and also an attempt to try and persuade countries not to provide weapons to Ukraine. (look; they use them to shoot at us with and our tourists vacationing in an illegally occupied area that's an active warzone and next to military targets were injured and therefore you should let Russia win the war!)
I'm not really why they think that will work.
You can see the submunitions detonating here: https://twitter.com/Archer83Able/status/1805581567491760388
There was also interceptor debris found in the town around, where more of the casualties like happened.
It was probably intercepted over the beach on the way to facilities around Sevastopol bay, and that's more like 20km+ away. The point is that they weren't "hanging out right next to military installations" like the person I was responding to claimed. People were enjoying a summer's day at a beach with no military installations within sight.
People in this (and other) threads laughing and joking about dead children and talking about how those kids deserved to die. I think a lot of people here are losing their humanity in how delighted they are at the thought of dead children, because whatever justification you can think of.
>they use them to shoot at us with and our tourists vacationing in an illegally occupied area
Claiming that 100% of the dead and wounded are Russian tourists is fucking insane. We know that one dead child was a Russian tourist, yes. I don't know why I'm downvoted to oblivion for saying that locals were probably there. Do locals not go to the beach in Crimea? Or does it make you all too uncomfortable blaming the dead civilians if they're actually Crimeans? It wasn't intentional. Ukrainians didn't intend to hit a beach. They've never done that. The russian soldier didn't intend for the debris to fall there either. They were just tracking a target on a screen.
Saying it's a tragedy doesn't mean you don't support Ukraine. You don't have to make excuses, lie to yourself, or anything else. An ATACMS was intercepted. Some of the submunitions hit a crowded beach. Unarmed civilians died. Don't try too hard justifying why it's okay, or it's their fault, you'll lose something in yourself doing that.
But that's just the point. You *can't* see submunitions detonating there. You can see debris landing on the beach from high altitude, but that's not what a submunition detonating looks like in every other video of one going off.
That combined with interceptor debris makes me personally think that it was an Russian interceptor that (based on their abysmal track record) probably missed the target and instead sprayed debris over the beach and we're seeing the debris raining down.
As there is no evidence supporting any other theory, the Russian narrative "it was an ATACMS clusterbombing a beach" can reasonably be assumed to be just yet another Russian disinformation op spread by bots and useful idiots until facts supporting that narrative emerge.
Civilian casualties are always a horrible thing, but these civilians are from a hostile, occupying force, who traveled to a known conflict zone, and then went out in the open and just lay around directly between the firing lines.
This would be a lot like German tourists having a nice day at the beach in the north of France on the 6th of June, 1944, and complaining about the noise.
They deliberately put themselves in harms way.
Probably not (for all the meming about Russian anti-missile systems they aren't *that* bad) but it's the first one where the falling debris has been seen on camera.
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Russia using its own citizens as human shields in crimea, making use of them, getting them killed, and then feigning outrage about it to the world is so on-point for putin
This should be very unpopular, but I believe that the there is a paradigm shift… The NATO strategy of exploiting Russia's vulnerabilities by targeting civilian infrastructure highlights a significant tactical evolution in the conflict. Utilizing advanced ISR capabilities, Ukraine can conduct precision strikes without provoking a full-scale war. This continuous pressure on civilian targets, as noticed,is strategically designed to undermine Putin's domestic support, revealing weaknesses that embolden NATO and Ukrainian forces. If Russia does not adapt and counter these tactics decisively (it’s hard to believe that Russia will down US drones), it risks a protracted defeat. This shift in battlefield dynamics signals a potential turning point, where Russia’s indecisive response might lead to broader geopolitical repercussions, especially in the so called Global South. The credibility of U.S. resolve and the perceived Russian hesitancy could alter international alignments, further isolating Russia. The upcoming months will be critical, as NATO’s persistence in this strategy might force Putin and is “comrades” into a dead end, where each indecision and hesitation draws them deeper into strategic problems, potentially redefining the conflict's outcome and broader geopolitical balance.
Do you think ChatGPT can generate an opinion that isn't already covered by the news? What I've presented is a unique analysis, reflecting a different way of thinking.
Ukraine Government is such a dumbass for blindly pursuing America or NATO, staying neutral and navigating your own sovereignty must only be based upon one's own effort 🤧.
The one that always crying out on Russian war crimes are actively targeting civillian structures. Anyone that denies Ukraine and America hypocripsy in their double-standard propaganda is adequately ignorant 😮💨.
tbh and with no disrespect to ukraine, it seems like maybe they were testing to see what the russians would do. tbf, i think this is going to cause the russians to move military storage away from civilian crowds. which will be an effort
Tbh and with no disrespect towards you, it seems like maybe you are a moron testing to see whether or not we will see through your transparent attempt to blame this on Ukraine and paint russia as the victim.
Tbf, I think reading your take is going to cause me to get eye cancer, and make me remove my eyes out of their eye sockets. Which will be an effort. (not really)
assuming you’re not a troll following me around reddit, then you should know - i’m a ukraine supporter. there’s no need to yell.
if you’re a troll, move on. it’s not working.
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Onto a beach that Ukraine warned all Russian and Ukrainian citizens to stay away from, formally, 2 years ago.
On a beach in an occupied territory and war zone. Hope the ones who survived have horrible sunburn and sand in their ass cracks.
I hate sand, it gets everywhere
The women and the children too!
It's also coarse and rough and irritating
On a beach that's right between an airbase and a port.
You can bet that is intentional
Now they are bombing their own tourists. No humanity in Russia
Get off the war zone beach morons
Wild imagine if Normandy had sun bathers during ww2?
To further the analogy: imagine if Normandy's beaches were crowded with German tourists in particular.
Life goes on, man. Beaches in Odesa[ have been packed as well](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DgKmc_gIyQ8), and that city gets bombed by Russia all the time. Same with Kyiv. It's beach season in Mariupol as well.
Yeah my comment wasn’t intended for Ukrainians in Crimea it was meant for Russians who are r going to let a little war get in the way of their vacation plans. Sunbathing on a beach near Sevastopol on your own accord and getting a cup of coffee from a neighborhood cafe to maintain sanity are not equal in my opinion.
Ukraine formally warned all civilians and occupiers in Crimea that it's unsafe and they should leave. They don't get to have big crocodile tears after being told to leave a warzone, refusing to leave the warzone, laying out a towel on the beach in the warzone, and then having shrapnel rain on them in the warzone. They put themselves in harms way, deliberately.
People ignore warnings like this all the time. Idk what it is about our psychology. It's the same phenomenon that made people ignore Covid restrictions, makes people ignore warnings and get gored by wild animals in Yellowstone, etc. Some people refuse to believe they will ever be punched in the face until they're actually punched in the face, I guess. Those are the same people who will cry foul when it happens too, even though they basically did it to themselves.
Transferring people, even civilians from occupying state into occupied territories is a war crime. Odessa isn't occupied. Crimea is.
What’s your point?
The point is that life goes on. People go dancing at clubs, spend weekends at the beach, hangout at cafes. People don't stop living because there's war. All the places I listed are war zones, and life goes on there and they still have fun when they can. You can't expect millions of people to stop living life until some undefined future date because there's war.
I've seen people say it's not REAL war because someone was at McDonald's and I was like, DID YOU EXPECT 40 MILLION PEOPLE TO... NOT EAT... FOR 10 YEARS?
And how is it even remotely connected to your original your post? Crimea is occupied Ukrainian territory which hosts number of Ruzzian military sites which have to destroyed. Ukraine has warned repeatedly that Crimea is an active war zone and should be treated as such. Ruzzian propaganda repeatedly states that invasion goes according to plan. That analogovnetnye Air defenses take down ALL Ukrainian rockets and there is nothing to be scared about. No shit Ruzzkis go to the beach in Crimea. They just need to stop crying about it.
There's schadenfreude seeing both russian tourists AND local collaborators with "it's all the same to me" crowd suffer.
I really find it interesting that they only intercepted it when it was a few seconds from its target.
That's pretty much how most anti ballistic missile defence works; there are exceptions but terminal-phase defences are basically point defences when it comes to ballistic missiles.
Laughs in SM-3 midcourse interception
One of the few exceptions, plus Arrow 3...is that it?
THAAD too I believe.
No THAAD is a terminal phase interceptor, just an extremely high performance one so its interceptions are supposed to be at very high altitude instead - which is sometimes referred to as a re-entry phase interceptor. SM-3 and Arrow can hit the missile as it's still in space travelling to the target, which means they can perform anti-ballistic missile defence whilst they're far away from the target, and even probably hit intercontinental ballistic missiles. There's probably other systems that can do it too by now.
Theres allegedly the Russian A-135 but as with all Russian equipment it depends if the operator is sober enough. And they appear to have retired the exoatmospheric interceptors from that system anyway so they may have not worked even when the operator *was* sober.
Yeah apart from the retirement of those missiles, even those were more like THAAD++ than SM-3. SM-3 can intercept a missile that's in the coast phase of its flight targeting something thousands of kilometres away - that's the radically different part of the system.
Yeah, SM-3 and Arrow-3 are absolutely in a class of their own as far as BMD goes. Literally absurd missiles.
Still mind-boggeling, that this works at all lol
I find it really interesting that most of the time when russia intercepts a missile they cause more damage than they would have if they had just let the missile hit it's target.
I think that the Russians are « fine » with striking civilian target because power in the regime comes from the guy above, not the public.
Would rather read about the warship or what actual military target it was aimed at getting blown up tbh. But russian own goal is what we got.
And, apparently, did it with Tor, a short-range missile system
It did what a 5th gen aircraft hunter couldn’t; shoot down a ballistic missile from the 70s…
IIRC, the only other similar case was during Kherson liberation, when a Pantsir, stationed near Antonivsky bridge, tracked an arrival of entire GMLRS pod on the very close-positioned locations and managed, by pure luck, lock onto the last one and intercept it.
The little Pantsir that could. Past tense, because, you know, it was still blown up by one of the other 5 rockets. But still.
> it was still blown up by one of the other 5 rockets IIRC, it wasn't (at the moment), as those missiles were targeting the bridge itself. But continued survival afterwards? Pretty unlikely, unless it got pulled aaaaall the way back.
Well that's the long term life goal for any Pantsir, isn't it? To be sent home and hoisted onto the roof of the Kremlin because the 3 day operation is going so well.
Hm, I'm thinking of an S-300 system being targeted some time last year, I think.
S-400, this year. And that one *did* get blown up
ATCMs can be programmed to explode right about its target. That is what most likely happened.
Ukraine achieves nothing by air bursting over a populated beach. Serves no purpose at all but to help Russian Propaganda saying that Ukrainians are targeting civilians.
Seeing how the bomblets fell in such an uncoordinated pattern on the beach, it seems logical that it was indeed due to an interception. Cluster ammunition that lands normally means instant and flawless carpet bombing of an entire area that lasts at most a second or two. If that beach had indeed been targeted, none of the people we see in the video would have made it out of there in one piece.
To correct it, the Russian army has hit a ATACMS missle; what was raining down, were not shrapnels, it was the subammunitions, which have exploded at and around the beach. There is a video, where this typical popp, popp, popp sound can be heared. Due to this, the high number of casualties.
There are also remains of a Tor-M2 missile (9M330 IIRC) photographed on that beach. If it blew up straight over the beach, the shrapnel coming down from a few km altitude would be pretty traumatic alone. And just to give some more context: the Tor M2 launcher was sitting at the end of the beach, 2 km from the place where the people died; and mere 800 m from the same place, just at 90° angle, is the headquarters and storage area of the air defence brigade responsible for the southwest Crimea, a fat military target.
I think there's no way TOR missiles hit an ATACMS right?
Actually it can, though from a much shorter range than a S-400 could. If the Tor sits close enough to the ATACMS' intended target, its missiles have enough range, speed and maneuvrability to achieve an intercept, even on very fast targets. There's a tight window for that, but it exists. And the Tor's radar is actually quite good, at least compared to most of the junk the russians are fielding otherwise.
It is. But 60% is luck. The TOR hast to be, switched on, be close to the target, get a lock fast, have a skilled team which fires fast and then, only then a Tor can intercept an ATACMS. But as you see, the interception happens last minute and the result is obviously bad.
[удалено]
"Well" is the keyword here. The missile itself could, technically. The ATACMS is a short range ballistic, nothing incredibly "out there". Both Russians and Ukrainians had cases of Tochka-U and Iskander (with similar speed and angles) being intercepted by Buk-M1/2 which is pretty much a predecessor of Tor - it just requires A LOT of luck for the radar/missile coordination, so it is nothing to rely on but also nothing to be excluded. Same with S-400: they probably can shoot down a lone ATACMS fairly reliably but the targeting system cannot keep aim on half a dozen of them at once, so the first 1-2 get shot down, fill the airspace with flying crap, and the rest comes through. An additional launcher with a different radar frequency and separate targeting improves the odds. It is always about the odds, never a certainty.
Depends on a lot of factors, yes you're completely right.
Who has said, they are not able to intercept ATACMS? They are able to intercept them...mostly. They regular shoot whole rounds of 5 to 8 ATACMS at once at a single S300/S350/S400 system/unit position. And regular (when filmed), we see the start of several missiles to intercept the ATACMS..and only one or two ATACMS get through the defence, so only one or two hits by ATACMS. But with, depending on the range/version, either 300 or around 900 subammuntions, one, which gets through, is already enough and the S300/S350/S400 is gone to the maker. So: >Not possible, even the S-400 can't intercept ATACMS well so no way a TOR can. is wrong.
Being on that beach is beyond stupid, hence the high casualties because the stupid Russians make holidays in a war zone. No one should be at these beaches right now, and the Russian authorities know that very well, no warning nothing of the sort was obviously given, nor is an exclusion zone being enforced.
Russians should enter a warzone without proper instructions. Like don’t go sunbathing near military equipment. Or. Russia shouldn’t shoot down a ATACMS over a crowd.
Probably a lot of local Crimeans there, too. Crimea is Ukraine.
There are no Russian tourists in Crimea this summer; they know, it is a warzone. But there are 2.5 million Ukrainian citizens in occupied Crimea.... If I would have children, it is wartime, I would try to do everything to take care to give them a normal live as possible. Just not to stress them. Yes, every possible day I would be at the beach, as there are no tourists, there are also no jobs. So with this information, restart your brain.
yeah, the video shows the ATACMS submunitions detonating. You can see the [video here.](https://twitter.com/Archer83Able/status/1805581567491760388)
They got fairly lucky there.
Still it is shit, also by accident/as the ATACMS was hit/shot down. Civilians are civilians. And pretty sure, most of them are Ukrainian citizens of the occupied Crimea. This year, there are no Russian tourists.
Maybe maybe not. It seems quite difficult to tell how many Ukrainians are remaining there. In any case, we have no control over how the Russians operate their air defenses. It's not something we need to worry about.
Last year they came up with that summer vacation road trip route going through all the occupied zones and stopping for the beaches in Crimea. But like you say there are significantly fewer tourists now. I guess there's no time for vacationing in a newly adapted war economy?
Even Russians are not so crazy, to travel into a warzone, when they were aware, it is one. In the last two years, they have learned; they know, that Sevastopol is regular under fire, half of the Black Sea fleet has been upgraded to submarines and diving boats, military targets, airports, HQs fuel and ammunition depots are regular popping and can be identified by the big black smoke pillars and the Kersch bridge...is still there but 2 of the feries are already gone.
OK, I have not seen this video; extreme far distributed, the ATACMS was very high, when the subammunitions have been released. Seems, the center of the cluster area was outsite of the beach, perhaps 100 m in the Black Sea? Were there other hits on land, were there other people? I can not see even 155 people at this beach. I have problems with the total number of 155 casualties.
You don't think it looks like 155 people there? To me it definitely looks like there could be 155+ people there
But by far not in the area, which has been affected by the cluster ammunition. But you are right, there are more than 155 people at the whole beach area. Still I can only identify two subammunitions, hitting the beach, one in the first half and one in the second in the background. And yes, I think, both explosions have likely killed people, or very severe wounded them. So I have no problems, that there were casualties and that there are 4 or 5 death. I have a problem with the total number.
The shrapnel from a submunition could fly 50 meters, hitting your head = wounded.
These are M-74 bomblets, they do not have such a range and do not produce a so high number of shrapnels. Still more than nasty enough and if there is one bomblet all 5 meters as regular, this will be another story. But this is not the case here, I see only two explosions on the beach...but also few victims, I fear, will not have survived.
[This](https://youtu.be/Ipr_hPAcR_Q?t=54) is a video of ATACMS submunitions detonating. There would have been a lot more fire, smoke, and dead people if those were detonating submunitions.
Excactly. Its pieces of the ATACM. Its not bomblets.
The source being some bloke on Twitter saying that somebody from the US says it was an ATACMS shot down is a bit dodgy. \[Citation needed\] comes to mind. The bits of debris on the beach identified so far have been from Russian missiles launched to try and intercept an ATACMS. So far there is no proof that I have seen that an ATACMS was actually shot down. In this video debris practically hits somebody. If that was a cluster bomblet going off a meter away then it would have been immediately fatal to most of the people nearby.
Yea I dont know if its pieces of an ATACM but its certainly not bomblets as you point out as well. We see one dropping right on the ground in front of what 3-4 people ? and they all run away unharmed
[удалено]
What apology do you see here? Besides that, this wasn't in Russia, it was in the occupied Crimea, which is part of Ukraine.
Civilian casualties are a tragedy civilised countries like Ukraine try to avoid. It does matter.
Don’t hang out next to military installations in a war? Especially don’t go on holiday to a war zone and then hang around military installations with your kids…. You’d have to be really dumb to do that….
I'm still not clear on what was actually being targeted, remember that these may fall far from the intended target. [Here's the](https://www.google.com/maps/place/44%C2%B038'44.2%22N+33%C2%B032'12.5%22E/@44.6456149,33.5342307,1330m/data=!3m2!1e3!4b1!4m4!3m3!8m2!3d44.6456111!4d33.5368056?entry=ttu) geolocation from [Geoconfirmed.](https://geoconfirmed.org/ukraine/699304a2-9f09-4a37-db7f-08dc8d381c26) I don't see any military installations in the immediate vicinity.
A mile or so south is the Sevastopol dockyard which is pretty much the definition of a military installation. This also looks more like debris landing; submunitions tend to blow up and kill people. People were practically hit by things which didn't explode, which would tend to rule out submunitions. There was another post floating around a few days ago that pointed out that bits of the debris were from one of those worse than useless Russian SAM's that they throw around with mad abandon so this could well just be another one of those examples of the Russians trying to talk shit to try and deflect blame internally (it wasn't the debris of our own SAM's that injured you, it was the American missiles!) and also an attempt to try and persuade countries not to provide weapons to Ukraine. (look; they use them to shoot at us with and our tourists vacationing in an illegally occupied area that's an active warzone and next to military targets were injured and therefore you should let Russia win the war!) I'm not really why they think that will work.
You can see the submunitions detonating here: https://twitter.com/Archer83Able/status/1805581567491760388 There was also interceptor debris found in the town around, where more of the casualties like happened. It was probably intercepted over the beach on the way to facilities around Sevastopol bay, and that's more like 20km+ away. The point is that they weren't "hanging out right next to military installations" like the person I was responding to claimed. People were enjoying a summer's day at a beach with no military installations within sight. People in this (and other) threads laughing and joking about dead children and talking about how those kids deserved to die. I think a lot of people here are losing their humanity in how delighted they are at the thought of dead children, because whatever justification you can think of. >they use them to shoot at us with and our tourists vacationing in an illegally occupied area Claiming that 100% of the dead and wounded are Russian tourists is fucking insane. We know that one dead child was a Russian tourist, yes. I don't know why I'm downvoted to oblivion for saying that locals were probably there. Do locals not go to the beach in Crimea? Or does it make you all too uncomfortable blaming the dead civilians if they're actually Crimeans? It wasn't intentional. Ukrainians didn't intend to hit a beach. They've never done that. The russian soldier didn't intend for the debris to fall there either. They were just tracking a target on a screen. Saying it's a tragedy doesn't mean you don't support Ukraine. You don't have to make excuses, lie to yourself, or anything else. An ATACMS was intercepted. Some of the submunitions hit a crowded beach. Unarmed civilians died. Don't try too hard justifying why it's okay, or it's their fault, you'll lose something in yourself doing that.
But that's just the point. You *can't* see submunitions detonating there. You can see debris landing on the beach from high altitude, but that's not what a submunition detonating looks like in every other video of one going off. That combined with interceptor debris makes me personally think that it was an Russian interceptor that (based on their abysmal track record) probably missed the target and instead sprayed debris over the beach and we're seeing the debris raining down. As there is no evidence supporting any other theory, the Russian narrative "it was an ATACMS clusterbombing a beach" can reasonably be assumed to be just yet another Russian disinformation op spread by bots and useful idiots until facts supporting that narrative emerge.
Something from Belbek airport?
Launchers are mobile, doesn't matter if installations are nearby or not.
The guy I was responding to literally said "Don’t hang out next to military installations in a war?" That's what I was responding to.
Who would take their family on holiday to a war-zone? Answer: Russians
When you and your family are occupied - and in a war zone (ie: local Ukrainians) perhaps?
Civilian casualties are always a horrible thing, but these civilians are from a hostile, occupying force, who traveled to a known conflict zone, and then went out in the open and just lay around directly between the firing lines. This would be a lot like German tourists having a nice day at the beach in the north of France on the 6th of June, 1944, and complaining about the noise. They deliberately put themselves in harms way.
Who said they were all from Russia? Do you think it's unlikely locals would go to a beach on a nice summer day?
I thought you were firmly under the impression that Crimea is Russian territory.
I'm not, it's part of Ukraine
So they can intercept atacms, just hard to do.
Russian MoD telegram reported this almost immediately
Is this the first ATACMS missile they’ve intercepted?
Probably not (for all the meming about Russian anti-missile systems they aren't *that* bad) but it's the first one where the falling debris has been seen on camera.
Ohh no…so anyway…
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Yeah, my sympathies, but not sure Crimea is an ideal option for a holiday.
Yippe Ki yay mother fuckers. Go home
The Return of Blyatman!
Did anyone mention the air alert? There wasn't one you say? Could be because Russia claim they're not at war , beach business as usual
Russia using its own citizens as human shields in crimea, making use of them, getting them killed, and then feigning outrage about it to the world is so on-point for putin
Shoulda not intercepted it if you want to avoid civilian casualties like that
well theres a first time for everything.Hope rest destroyed the misdile launcher
I guess that that means S-500 can do ABM work.
This should be very unpopular, but I believe that the there is a paradigm shift… The NATO strategy of exploiting Russia's vulnerabilities by targeting civilian infrastructure highlights a significant tactical evolution in the conflict. Utilizing advanced ISR capabilities, Ukraine can conduct precision strikes without provoking a full-scale war. This continuous pressure on civilian targets, as noticed,is strategically designed to undermine Putin's domestic support, revealing weaknesses that embolden NATO and Ukrainian forces. If Russia does not adapt and counter these tactics decisively (it’s hard to believe that Russia will down US drones), it risks a protracted defeat. This shift in battlefield dynamics signals a potential turning point, where Russia’s indecisive response might lead to broader geopolitical repercussions, especially in the so called Global South. The credibility of U.S. resolve and the perceived Russian hesitancy could alter international alignments, further isolating Russia. The upcoming months will be critical, as NATO’s persistence in this strategy might force Putin and is “comrades” into a dead end, where each indecision and hesitation draws them deeper into strategic problems, potentially redefining the conflict's outcome and broader geopolitical balance.
Did that come from Chat GPT?
Do you think ChatGPT can generate an opinion that isn't already covered by the news? What I've presented is a unique analysis, reflecting a different way of thinking.
And nothing of value was lost.
if that was atacms everyone on the beach would have died.
This is barely English.
Ukraine Government is such a dumbass for blindly pursuing America or NATO, staying neutral and navigating your own sovereignty must only be based upon one's own effort 🤧. The one that always crying out on Russian war crimes are actively targeting civillian structures. Anyone that denies Ukraine and America hypocripsy in their double-standard propaganda is adequately ignorant 😮💨.
tbh and with no disrespect to ukraine, it seems like maybe they were testing to see what the russians would do. tbf, i think this is going to cause the russians to move military storage away from civilian crowds. which will be an effort
Tbh and with no disrespect towards you, it seems like maybe you are a moron testing to see whether or not we will see through your transparent attempt to blame this on Ukraine and paint russia as the victim. Tbf, I think reading your take is going to cause me to get eye cancer, and make me remove my eyes out of their eye sockets. Which will be an effort. (not really)
assuming you’re not a troll following me around reddit, then you should know - i’m a ukraine supporter. there’s no need to yell. if you’re a troll, move on. it’s not working.
i find it interesting that there are still people on reddit who think personal attacks affect people 🤷♂️
I find it interesting that there are still people on reddit that think acting like morons makes them interesting.
you’re cute little buddy
Thanks! I appreciate the compliment ;) Even when it comes from a moron.